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Moments of the Unknown - 143
Recorded: Aug. 28, 2025 Duration: 1:08:19Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. what's up og
what's up brother we're back back we're just
we're just chatting on the phone right
before this for like 15 minutes uh it's getting our getting our prep in yeah hopefully not driving
at 134 miles an hour while we're on this podcast i realize how fucking moronic that must look but
it was, well,
it's just crazy.
And so when I got my car,
I basically got this crazy,
I was actually,
this is a true story.
Jack last year got it like a car.
Actually,
basically got a Denali and it was a 24.
And I was like,
Oh bro,
I love it.
But have you looked at when they're redoing the model year?
And he's like, no, I'm like, my fuck at when they're redoing the model year and he's like no
i'm like motherfucker they're doing it in like two months so i swear to god when i moved to dallas
just to be an absolute cock i was like gonna go get a 25 denali and i was on my way to get it
just so i could like take pictures all year and send jack texts and be like damn there's 25 rides and that is not like that
piece of 24. so uh anyway uh i ended up getting this random benzo that was electric that i didn't
expect i got it all like tricked out and the windows the guy i go to pick it up i'm like bro
you're gonna get me thrown in jail like with. It's like zero and full, blacked out, everything.
And I've been around Texas before.
I used to have a company up north of Dallas.
I got thrown on the car multiple times by police officers.
So anyway, it turns out they don't give a fuck here.
You can drive.
As long as you're not causing problems, you can drive fast
and have a literally
full black tint like everything and so it's like the autobahn up in dallas yeah
it is and then you know what's crazy as soon as you hit fort worth like in dallas everyone
moves out of the way of your car and like does all the things like drives fast in the fast lane
like this is a heaven many you hit Fort Worth, it all changes and goes back.
I guess Dallas is funny,
but everyone has guns so people don't fuck around.
I guess that's the
trade-off. Don't get
road rage out there.
I used to have a problem with rage
for many years.
I did
very many stupid things like that
and now I never spent many, many years.
And I think I'd like to say never had one small incident in the last number of years,
but one or maybe two, but basically never lose my temper ever now.
It's been years.
How do you find that patience when you
feel it coming up?
Well,
in short,
when I grew up, I was like my dad.
He meant well, but he was like,
what you want doesn't matter.
How you feel doesn't matter.
Never cry. Do what you're supposed to do
so obviously like that's an impossibility because how are you supposed to know what you're supposed
to do if you don't listen to anything you want or feel or your soul was telling you so long story
short in like 2012 I looked up I thought I had gotten the life I wanted and I was miserable so
I started a journey really that the bulk of the
hard work finished. Oh, you know what? It's been a lot of hard work since then 13 years, but, um,
it took me a long time to deal with emotions. Cause I didn't even know, I got only feel the
anger. And then it took me a while to learn to be like, well, I'm angry because I wanted Justin to
say, he thought my tattoos were cool and he didn't, that's absurd, you know, like, I'm angry because I wanted Justin to say he thought my tattoos were cool and he didn't.
That's absurd.
You know, like, or whatever the fuck.
But I did say your tattoos were cool when we were hanging out.
I know, I know, I know.
I'm trying to think of an innocuous example.
I don't know.
Nothing.
So just wanting to be validated.
No, I think understanding the underlying emotion, I think anger is a secondary emotion that says, the purpose of anger, I've realized, somebody does something and you feel angry.
No, I think understanding the underlying emotion.
You think it has something to do with them.
It has nothing to do with them.
Anger is an intense emotion to tell you, look here.
There's something you need to deal with right here.
And so what I started doing is when I felt, I was like, what's happening under this?
And then I kept peeling back the layers and peeling back the layers and
peeling back the layers.
And so now when I have an initial anger, I either I'm like, okay, I understand
what's happening here.
I have this expectation and it's about me.
Or if I can't, I'll say to somebody, Hey, you know what?
I'm so sorry.
I need a minute to, I'm having a bunch of like, if it's an emotional conversation with somebody,
I'll say I need a minute or whatever. But yeah, I think like, you know, I have this middle finger
on my middle finger and it's kind of a fun, silly tats, but have hulk on my right thigh and dr jekyll and mr hyde on my left and why i did
that is i think like anger i did a lot i've done a lot of volunteer work and one of the big things
i've invested time in is um i go i've gone multiple times into fulsome prison maximum security
level three with like all convicted murderers.
And every one of these motherfuckers was thrown in there age 16 to 19 for a split second decision in anger where they did something they know they shouldn't and their whole life was ruined.
And so for me, like seeing that over time and then for me, it was you were joking around in
the car. I was a menace. There was a period after my first divorce i had some other terrible things with my family and so on where i just like for six weeks i was
it was the worst time in my life and thankfully a friend of mine helped me pull out of it and
but i was like basically a week from jail or dead like i got this back tattoo from this
cholo ex-gangster who was hung when he was 14.
He cleaned up his life.
And when I was leaving, he gave me this Cholo salute.
And then I went back later when I fixed myself out.
He's like, bro, I saw guys like you.
I thought you'd be gone in a week, dead or in jail.
And so I realized how dumb this whole undertaking was.
And somebody could give me the
finger and i'd jump out my car like a puppet and put my family and myself at risk and so to me
those like my middle finger thing is whenever i feel anything stupid coming on i just like look
at it and be like yo you know don't be a like what are you doing so i'd say it took a
long time and a lot of work and then for me the other big piece has just been soul i think um
i grew up with like you know no belief and i was like oh i can't see it. There's no God. There's no nothing. And at the last, after a number of challenges, in about 20, 20, I finally was like, yo, I don't know shit.
I don't control shit.
I'm nothing.
And all I am is like one tiny piece of this universe.
And I started listening to my soul.
And that has literally, I know it sounds so cheesy.
I always joke old me would have kicked the shit out of new me,
which is a good thing.
And I literally follow whatever my soul tells me
to the point of some people think it's crazy.
I'm not saying, I wish I could use words to describe what I mean,
but I'll be driving sometimes, or I'll be sitting somewhere
and I'll be like, go get in your car and go to lunch.
I'll just get some pull to it, and I'll just go do it and like all of a sudden all this crazy cool stuff happens so
that has made life easier because i'm like wow you know when you do dumb shit you get bad outcomes
and feel bad when you do like shit that's right and follow your soul i'm like just it's so obvious
and obnoxiously clear but unfortunately i had to learn it like many people in a way it's so obvious and obnoxiously clear,
but unfortunately I had to learn it like many people.
In a way, it's like when you go into what you're against
or you're resisting it, your soul is contracting.
And when you're following that flow
and you're following that inner voice
and it's leading you somewhere, it's like you're expanding.
What are your thoughts about contracting and expansion?
No, I love those as a metaphor, actually.
Like, one of the things I think is really useful in our space,
is like, I started thinking this when I was in business,
when I had this company, I was trying to grow it,
and I realized, like, the best metaphor, analogy,
I always fucked that up, whatever the right metaphor for, uh,
how to think about like, especially digital networks, but really everything,
like everything that you're, when you're like growing is ours.
So on his surface area and expansion,
like the larger the surface area of your network,
the more nodes that can expand off of it and thus as
those expand more and more and more and so i've really shifted my collecting since i first entered
the space like when i first entered you know i've known about i've loved images and comics and
tattoos i've been collecting when i joined in 21 for uh 23 22 years maybe 23 years i started collecting tattoos in 98
then um and i was into art but i didn't really know but i quickly like tried to
learn the trad model and like emulate one of ones and i started early seeing the power of
ecosystems like the bay i'm not a big ape guy but you know, the way they did apes and mutants and serums and pets and all that.
And then I learned on the more like front, like, like right.
When I got into OSF's industry, like OSF's ecosystem, I started learning the power of like having a big expanding ecosystem and then Jack
and now 6529. But I think everything in digital assets is about going to networks, the largest
networks that are expanding and that creates gravity that sucks new entrants into them.
And another thing is I just, as I look at artists and the difficulty of being an artist, one of the pressures on him if he has to
keep releasing like a better thing the last or like Sam something bigger than
monument came or whatever you know on and on there's you could go with but I
think once you have an ecosystem that's somewhat self sustaining is like there
becomes natural ways to expand that are like more like building on what you've done than coming up with something new so like
in the ecosystems i mentioned each of them continues to expand in new ways
that are interesting and extensions of what they're doing and and have huge potential over
time and so to me it's funny you chose those words, but that's exactly the right language to think about networked communities and networked art and digital assets.
Well, there's a few things there that you mentioned, you know, like how do we continue outdoing ourselves without making it a performance or pleasing the market?
How do you create a sustainable ecosystem over a long period of time
in a space that kind of changes almost every day?
It's like the network effect is real,
but how do you sustain the bonds over time?
So I've been thinking about this a lot lately.
Man, you're really serving up to where I'm at.
I appreciate it.
Okay.
What I think is that it used to be you like had a life and then you put
pictures on the internet or whatever now think about us me and you i'm looking at this audience
and i have some dear close people i love here my life is i wake up i say gm to like a bunch of
people i know all over the world.
Then I go and start talking to them and hang out.
Then we go into projects or communities I'm in and we discuss these intrinsic parts of
each network or ecosystem that are exciting and we can share and connect over whether it's osf's next drop or migration or composition of checks or it's set making consensus and opep or the next meme card
or you know right now when i joined 6529 i'm a total noob so don't i'm not pretending i know
fuck all you know i'm like two weeks in but they have some wonderful mechanisms around like TDH and there's some movements and trying to like make the 6529 network, like bring outside art curated by other people onto it and just all this exciting stuff.
So now that we all would, all of us here are like the pioneers of this is our life.
This is my digital identity.
My mom calls me OG.
I mean, I had the name og
before coming into this but not as hardcore but like i wake up and all these people are my dearest
friends in my whole life and i tell my my entire digital identity is like a combination of like
all you can see my failures in the blockchain and my successes and how i represent and so what i think is when you accept that this
is now quotes digital identity is identity and that actually everything stems from it and number
two that as a result this the idea of going into communities and being able to be like i hate to
say like you know i've been in
communities like one where i was really active and then got less active and it's really like
emotional in some ways to be like less where you were it's like a real self-defining thing and so
i think the way you have to do it is you have to create and it's usually not a priority you're not
like sitting on the dock like me looking at water and being like oh my god i'm gonna i mean maybe if
you're sam's right because he's so fucking smart but like jack is a perfect example of jack's so
fucking brilliant but a lot of jack's brilliance is responding to what's happening and then creating
enormous value so don't think you have to sit there a priori but you basically have to build
a system like osf i saw it it started with the one-on-ones but then he migrated rld had monthly drops so people
would come back then there was wreck guy coming up and then wreck guy traits and sets and then
tabs and then wreck brands and the drink and then the coin so there was always like you can just
show up there every day and you're around all these people next into jack you have multiple
communities like there's like 20 million splinter chat groups on twitter i keep
getting added i think i'm in like 14 12 like different you and i are in like 27 different
groups together yeah i know i know you're there with me justin all i gripped you all we're in
like everything though so uh so what i think is it has to be non-gimmicky it has to be intrinsic
to the pro to the project itself like one of
the things that happened a lot in late 21 when i joined in then 22 is like people would just
talk about the traits of the pfp or whatever and i'm like yo i like this but like
year two of talking about the traits is like i'm done you know or playing bingo on fridays
there's nothing inherent whereas you need something inherent in the structure,
like Jack's, like I said again, for Jack,
every time there's a migration or composition,
like each of these things, the next meme card,
the next rec brand, rec drink drop,
like there's a reason you're there and showing up
that's not gimmicky and it is reinforcing the project.
And so in short, you need to have an ecosystem where there are various ways to participate, like various angles to come in on based on whether you like coins.
I'm not recommending launch a coin, but in practice, I've come around to most people make a lot of money in coins and then buy art with it.
around to most people make a lot of money in coins and then buy art with it um so i think like whether
it's some set of coins or some base unit tdh you know and um even and like you need something that
each when you're in the ecosystem you can start migrating and showing your journey and where you
are by doing different stuff and holding different pieces of it in a way that suits you.
And that it's self-sustaining in that manner.
So you have to have like, you know, your, your release,
your things tie them together in a way that gets people to identify their
digital identity with it and want to show up every day and, or, you know,
and talk about it and see what's happening.
I mean, you and I see that so very well in the grifter chat. and talk about it and see what's happening.
I mean, you and I see that very well in the Grifter chat.
I think the Grifter chat might be one of the most active, funny.
I always end up scrolling up to read what's going on.
I used to do that with punks. Yeah.
But as time changes, taste changes,
the people who buy the art collect the art trade
the art change how does that you know affect the ecosystems can i say that again like as you know
how we're on all these group chats together and new people come other people go you know is that
just the tide of of the network you know how how it works i think right now we have to
remember that like we are at if you look at every industry from trains to bikes to cars to planes
to whatever what always happens is there's like the explosive like hype you know where like and
in this case we all know it was massively like
on steroids times 20 because you were at covid you're sitting in front of a computer and you're
getting checks like a free money to gamble so we had a huge beginning and a spectacular explosion
and destruction and what i'd like to think of is that we are now potentially entering
the first period of look secular growth is never straight up just to be clear but like you know
i'm hoping that we are through the you know the bubble washout and we're now if this technology
has like very strong value use cases and everything from digital identity to tokenizing assets to
building communities to a variety of other things that adds those to art of course which is where
my focus and effort is primarily um and uh that over time new entrants will start to come in and we'll start experiencing secular growth.
So where I think we are now is like,
we are post-bubble, we're seeing some good signs
and we're seeing indications like,
you know, in the next month,
I think the Carnegie Hall and the Toledo Museum
are just like fairly notable, you know,
that like the level and scale of stuff over time.
And if we get more institutional entry and like wealth, you know,
people coming in, but I think where we are is, it's a real test.
Now, are we going to get new entrants and start growing?
And I think, um, look,
what I believe is as new entrants come in,
they'll look to what's worked already.
And like we talked about there'll be like a gravity pull to the biggest ecosystems and networks because this is a risky
asset and art is difficult it's not like businesses or property where you can be like okay well at
least that company's making a thousand bucks a year so i know i'll get a thousand bucks a year or hey this
is still like the only place in california where there's land like this or whatever so you can try
to value it or have a so people like don't need to buy art and why they buy art is a variety of
different reasons and so i think we need i think the real change will come when younger people like my son is
six and he's turning seven and he gets paid in roblox for chores so for him to trade ethereum
or whatever over time will be nothing it won't even be you know it won't be like some 50 year
old friend of mine who like can't even wrap their head around it so i think those are the two big things we need
like substantial new entry and then we need like the younger people just to age into this but
that's where i think so i think like my bet is we still have longer than people think
and in between now and then we'll continue to have the networks that will be a huge part of the winners.
Like taking share, like you're seeing now already.
You know, like the top artists.
It's like kind of typical in most businesses and digital businesses.
Look at all the top seven companies.
Even NVIDIA, which is driven by software.
so even though it's a hardware company a lot of it so i just think you have to sort of this is
So even though it's a hardware company, a lot of it.
still a game where you either have to be in it you know to make to do well here consistently you have
to be like part of the community culture it's going to take some time and i think hopefully
between now and then the thing i'd like to see i was feel like a few important people like
if jeff bezos bought nfts like came over you know so i think we'd need like it'd be cool
if in the meantime we can have one or two of those type things where somebody like and we're
getting close on some people it's somebody just so big that everybody's like oh my god i better look at this well we've seen that like when elon memes his the board apes and the sees the meme cards and
you know we've seen jay-z repping punks like if you go look at his twitter you can see him and
his punk so it's like how many more signifiers do we need to get the mainstream onboarded and to your point
I mean like rich finance dudes and tech
dudes is really I hate to say it because I think
those who that's
tech dudes should be buying more art
rich finance dudes do buy a lot of art
so you need like
if like Steve Cohen
Jeff Bezos
like that's what I'm talking about somebody like
not just another like somebody who's like a
scion of but that's what's just in my head yeah i don't know i mean it makes sense because we're on a
digital platform and they and they speak the language of computers and technology and this
is like a technological revolution and it's probably reflects my own personal um i have along the way i was in
finance and so on i have some people i'm specifically targeting that i i feel like my brain knows in so
my head's probably skewed to that because it's a current personal goal and i've started that
process of introducing this sector to a few hitters you know and i'm hoping to bring them in so that's probably
why i said that because it's a personal focus rather than but the industry itself and so
i might be overweighting it well let me ask you this we we see all these you know these big sales
on within our friend groups and community that we see every day on sales bots x copies and acts and sams and
everybody yeah but when we look at the bigger picture in art you know we're only hitting the
million the hundreds of thousands of the millions and it's lucky the tens of millions whereas the
the mainstream art world at sotheby's and christie's these guys are fighting over like
70 million 90 million dollar pieces.
Like it's pennies.
So like,
where are those people in regards to this digital space?
Yeah,
there's not it.
I mean,
look when Sotheby's and them have auctions,
they still call.
I remember once I got,
well,
I shouldn't rat anyone out.
Anyway,
I'll get funny calls where they're like,
Oh gee,
you should like look at pieces,
these two pieces.
I'll be like,
I have that piece. And I like know both those artists and talk to them
why do they need you to call me that's not the person you should be calling so where i think is
it's gonna take there's like you know there's a i mean look betty it and a bunch of people in this space have done a ton on the museum and kind of wealthier people coming in the industry.
And so I think what happens is the more museums we're in, the more approval there is where there has to be some acceptance.
Again, you never know how it'll pan out.
out but more people start i just think right now we're not the the distinct from some of the bats
But more people start.
I just think right now we're not.
and crypto and nfts just hasn't gone far enough and nothing institutional feels like we're getting
closer though that's what i'm saying it's like a bunch of museums or some big art fund or
institution starts buying it i know there's some new funds coming into the space so
i think it's like this weird thing of carp before horse but those people won't come in until they feel because art like i said nobody has to buy art and it's already reasonably even though it's
done super well over time it's just a it's sort of not a standard format investment where you're
picking based on value as much as on a variety of other things, you know?
I don't know. I think
the more
institutional recognition we get
and the more rich people see
the stuff everywhere and the museums
and feel comfortable with it,
then that stuff happens more.
Do you think that
could happen within this space
with the people here and the technologies
and the abundance that's grown through crypto and AI?
And we don't need to rely on the people
that have the, let's say, old money per se,
whereas new money is being generated.
And you said it yourself,
you give your kid Roblox dollars
and that might translate into,
you might be training the youth into
loving digital art so it's like how does the new generations look at what's being made now
in like 20 years from now kind of like how we see all the the greats i like to quote you know
herring warhol boskett because i'm a new York based, but, you know, what they were doing in the 80s and how we're valuing it now,
I'm curious
to see what we're doing now, how they'll
value it in the same
way relative.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think
that's really interesting. I just,
I guess the way I answer that is
everyone always wants, like, a couple,
not saying you do.
Like I think people are looking for kind of one or two major things that would change the thing.
And generally my experience in life, like look at yourself as a human, each of ourselves.
You don't just start drinking orange juice every day and then all your problems are gone.
You have to do like a hundred little things or a thousand a day.
You start like doing a little exercise and you change your diet you go to bed at a better time you stop smoking
a cigarette whatever it is and so what i think is all those things need to happen and each person
has to be empowered by whatever their tiny role in the universe is like each of us who survived
and managed to be here and cares i know each of
us are doing like little things that reflect us so my answer is more each person should if they
believe see i believe this is a revolution in how people are going to live and treat each other and
connect i think it's like the most exciting thing i've seen in my 50 fucking year life in the sense like
all of a sudden all these major problems like prejudice and discrimination like i'm not saying
they're perfect but like you pick your name and how you look you're globally connected and
engaging around art and positive stuff and i don't know there's just so much cool shit here
so i think each of us who cares and wants to sit in their little arena champion these things we of course
like all things that would help our institution all that but i do think a lot of it is just
younger people who've lived on screens their whole life there's no adjustment here
those old art people like are old and you're never going to change them
so i hate to say it like they got to get old and go on to the next Those old art people are old, and you're never going to change them.
So I hate to say it, they've got to get old and go on to the next place, whatever that may be, and not be here. And the young people have to become the ones who make decisions.
And we're not going to be the ones who convince them about the internet, or I mean about crypto.
Crypto will be so native to them that they won't even think about it, and they'll just sort of like, this will be so native to them
that they won't even think about it and they'll just sort of like
this will be the next thing and
that's kind of how I think about it
I think you're right about that
I think it's all these little patterns that
create the structures of
over a long period of time
I don't think there's one quick fix
or one person
like a messiah that can transform it.
Yeah, it's lots and lots and lots.
It's like making a sculpture chip away at the rock in every place until you're left with...
And we all play a role here.
That's right.
If you choose to.
But if you choose to, there's plenty to do.
I mean, what are your thoughts about, about like should all artists be on this chain
or only those who believe in it on what chain ethereum or just in blockchain blockchain like
the future i was like you know probably like many here i'm like everyone should do whatever the
they want and like the world will decide what it wants do whatever you want but i always tell
artists like i should be able to do whatever i want i'm like you can you just can't pick
what everyone else will do to respond it can't be you pick what you want and you pick how i respond
so my answer to that is like always as always each artist is a different thing and like you know
if i was like an older, if I was like older than
I am now, but felt like I didn't have that much time, I feel like I wouldn't waste a second on
this. I would just keep going with the other old people in the main lane. So like, there's a,
but if I was a young person, like, there's no way I wouldn't be like living and breathing in this.
That's going to change like the entire world, everything we're doing and how people are connected.
I mean, if you started the world a priori, like you wouldn't be like,
oh, you know what's way better?
I'm going to use like swift transactions to transfer money instead of crypto.
Like said, nobody ever knew anything, you know?
So I just think it's so superior.
It's just a matter of like when, how, and what time.
And I remember this.
I remember in 1999, the internet bubble.
And I was like, look, this is going to change everything.
It's just going to take way fucking longer.
And it wasn't until probably social media and Facebook.
It started massively.
And now it's everything.
Everything you do.
Like you want to date people, you go on an app,
you want to find the best restaurant.
And so I just think it's going to take,
we take so much longer to change than people think
because we're so used to everything being two seconds.
So I think it's just like 15 years from now,
it's a pretty sure bet. And I think like probably not, I think it's just like 15 years from now, it's a pretty sure bet.
And I think like probably not.
I think, look, since I've been here, Bitcoin went from being fringe to being like responsible that you have it in your portfolio now and like use it.
And we're fringe.
Like, you know, we're fringe to people, still, a lot of us.
So I just think it'll evolve.
And it'll seem, as Jack says, lives live forward, understood backwards.
And it'll look much more obvious in hindsight based on what happens.
But sitting here today, we have to get from here to there
well speaking about jack i want to actually ask you about your journey as an artist and a poet
because i noticed that you've made art and you also write these beautifully said posts that i
quite frequently love to share and i want to understand where that inspiration comes from
i really think you're a great poet, to be honest with you, man.
Jeez, man.
Those kind words mean so much to me.
Because you feel it.
It's relatable.
It's real.
And you and Jack both share that.
To me, when I read you guys sharing your posts of the day or whatever you're doing, it hits.
It's always a hitter.
Jack's cerebral as fuck you
know and like dry right and i'm mr touchy feely it's funny so um well for someone who said that
they never had feelings growing up like i feel that shit yeah because i had to learn to feel
them it's crazy man it's been a crazy journey um i don't know i'll do my best to do it fast
when i was a kid the idea of telling my family or my friends whatever that i was an artist it just was a different time
and i'd say you know some people close to me have said it's weird how like i'm so unapologetic about
so much of my life and it's taken me a while to be i'm probably not there fully if i'm being honest i'm getting much
closer to be fully unapologetic as an artist so my journey started like i said i was like into
cartoons and um and images and tattoos and but the idea that i was an artist so then in 2014
um when my marriage first marriage had fallen apart and i was like oh shit i gotta
have to leave i i went on a trip by myself to like a adult no kid resort not like a
intimate place like but just to be away from kids because i was about to leave my wife
i was getting my head together and i was sick of getting advice from people i was walking around
this giant mexican resort long story short, I started rapping to myself.
I was like, oh, fuck, this is weird.
I can rap.
And I was in a big Mexican bathroom at the resort.
I thought it was empty.
I was freestyling, taking a piss.
I turned around.
The guy's standing there, and he's like, you know, did you freestyle that?
I was like, yeah.
He's like, can you freestyle for me and my friends?
So anyway, I do.
Some woman I never met starts yelling
that's you know who that is that's jones and so i started going by og mofo jones
it wasn't until 22 when i bought said i wrapped for like many years and i still do
uh then in 22 i got in this game in late 21 i was like mucking around and i found osf
and i was like you know i want to be a part of something and i bought the biggest 101 price
i've ever paid i bought dinner from osf but at the time it was easier for me to understand because i
was a finance guy and i'm like okay it gets three drops a month forever here's where the drops are
trading here are the other things and so i bought it and are the other things. And so I bought it and I loved OSF, you know?
So I bought it and I'm like, fuck,
I better like learn how to do this shit.
Like understand it like I did tattoos.
So I started teaching myself every tool that artists use,
starting with Mid Journey 2 at the time, Procreate.
I had minimal, but I did it where i figured out how
blender um pindar taught me diffusion model gans and diffusion models then you know uh i did some
generative stuff in march of 23 like just to see so i was basically like look i want to know to be
a great collector i need to know the the what these tools can do and
what's easy and what's hard and what's interesting as a result and so i started doing that and it
took the path like the place every day of like other meditations so i was doing and then
so i started eventually i posted my first piece i remember i was called
Actually, I posted my first piece, I remember.
It was called Don't Forget Yesterday's Promises.
And Kenshiro, who was a big deal at the time,
he's back under a different name,
but Kenshiro's like, oh, gee, I love that piece.
Who made it?
And I was like, holy fuck, I did, bro.
And I'm like, this is crazy.
So then I started just releasing Art Daily
and working harder and harder on it.
Then in January 2023, I sold my first piece on Foundation.
Then I got all up in my head.
I'm like, well, fuck, I don't want to wreck the stuff I'm doing as a collector or
trying to move this space forward.
This is when I was like, God, it's a lot of pressure.
The next one has to sell for a high price for me to to if it's not then i'll feel all up so i didn't i kept making art and
releasing it daily on the timeline like many days you know but i'd make art daily and then
finally i went through all this terrible life stuff or whatever and then on jan 1st with the
support like pindar's been amazing to me. Jack and Shrimp have been amazing, like helped push me along.
You know, so many people helped me in my journey.
But I started, I released my first edition.
It's under OG the Artist on OpenSea.
And I was in a real sad place.
So if you look at that thing, you'll see exactly like I was fucking that was so uh then i started making art every day on
rodeo you know to get comfortable and then finally i released uh one of one of six called the world
is ours for whatever reason there's certain movies from my youth that really shamed me one is wall
street dealers scarface so i love the idea of like how money corrupts
because i used to be super focused on money and now i'm like money comes if you do cool
shit and great and help people and so on so anyway that went better than i thought and i was just i
had a one of one of 24 collection i've been working on for months. I decided to use like fake rare Pepe as one of the characters because it was going to be a retrospective about like my experience.
And it was going to be cross media on chain with 3D printed and other shit.
I got all this stuff to do.
And had I released it, I bet like in June when I first started, it would have been all right.
had i released it i bet like in june when i first started it would have been all right but now pepe's
chat gbt pepe's are like everywhere and i scrap the project because i'm like it won't move me
forward so that's been a bit of a heartbreaker um to work so hard on something and i'm sure it's for
a purpose but so yeah and so now i'm just gonna see where my soul takes me and i was the artist
the best place to be in this game is you can't depend on your
drops for income to live because if you do you're going to be forced to mortgage your future and
you know i could have released this thing i worked so hard on it and i'm sure it would have been
okay and fine but i'm like it would have done detriment to my journey. And I just, I'm really, people sort of take this wrong when I say it.
But what I say is like, look, I want to make something worth bothering with.
I don't want people to just be like, yo, OG's the homie.
I'm going to check it out.
And if it's like cheap enough, I'll buy it or whatever.
Like, I want to make a statement.
Just like I've done, I think, to the best of my ability and how I work with artists,
how I enter and work with communities my view in life is like judge me entirely on my words and actions and all my friends
who are all better than me so i want to do something to make people like
like just because i'm kind of like they would like i want them to be
so i want to be i'm truly excited and like get into it i get into projects and so until i can do
maybe the bar is too high maybe i'll start releasing a few one-on-ones in the interim
again if i'm motivated but i felt like this was going to be a great project and i love
the structure of it and i'll probably morph it but i'm not going to be a great project. And I love the structure of it. And I'll probably morph it. But I'm not going to release anything.
Except probably.
I mean I can't say.
Never really say anything.
Oh shit.
We lost OG.
I'm trying to get him back on here.
I think he walked outside.
Out of the wifi range.
Let's see what happens. Let's see. Let's see what happens.
Let's see.
responds to something with that one.
Let's see.
I had a few questions anyway for OG
homie.
In the meantime
while we're waiting
for him to join back
I will say whoever's listening
yes yes
did you walk outside and lose your wifi
maybe
can I add some thoughts
in there I had like three questions
sorry I was babbling on
no I honestly I love when people babble
because they just share their trueness
and it just makes it easier for me to listen.
But I have three questions
and I want to ask these three questions
before you start riffing again.
The first question was,
I love what you said about understanding the techniques and the art about the artist.
So you could understand the artist's struggle, the artist's process.
And instead of looking at something as a final result, you can understand what went into it.
I want to learn more about what you were thinking about that.
The second question was about building your own communities again.
Like, let's say, you know,
you could join the memes,
you could join the checks,
you could join the masks,
you could join any PFP project,
but how does one start one?
Like, how do you become that?
If you have your own work
and you believe in yourself in that way
that you could grow a community,
where do you even start?
The third question is more so on the scarface side of things like i think we should actually
talk about this it's a taboo but it's important how does money corrupt does it corrupt the art
how do you heal from the corruption if you find yourself poisoned
bro i gotta tell you i fucking love this like i love weighing because
all the shit you ask i'm like motherfucker this guy's like killing it for me exactly what i want
to talk about so the first thing yeah in short on the techniques and practices i learned this
and everything my view in life is like you can tell i'm a zero or eleven guy but it's
i tell my kids when you do something try your very best
because it's still gonna suck if it fails but if you're like look honestly i did everything i could
reasonably do in that situation and it still failed like i've had a recent thing like this
where i did that and i'm like fuck it still hurts but it's a different kind of thing it's like oh
i really like sometimes you're like do i wish we were different yeah but like there's literally
nothing i could have done so what i feel is the joy in life, like, I spent a lot of time also
because I've suffered from depression my whole life, sometimes terrible.
And I'm always like, you know, how do you get to being happy?
And it's not by seeking happiness.
So in short, what I think is when you're doing something,
it's way cooler and more fun to know about it
because I have a ton of hobbies.
But if you know, like, oh my God, before this recent,
like watching Mid Journey, here's a dumb example,
but going from version two to where are we, V6 now, right?
And just like watching the things you could do
or how ChatGP gpt came up like knowing
all the little details and appreciation it just lets you not only enjoy the piece but when somebody
does something cool you now know it's cool like when i got a clipper ship tattoo i must have looked
at 10 000 fucking clipper ship tattoos and then when i picked mine i'm like look all these little
subtle things it still looks really cool but it's still like the traditional way of doing it.
And so for me, I think one, it lets you be a much more, look, you have to have a framework to make decisions about art and be open.
And like, I think I not stylistically tied, like the artists I love the most have very different like styles and content but they all have like some core things
like authenticity and colors chosen right so anyway i just think it's a much better way
you can't judge something if you don't know how difficult it is to do in a way or why what they're
doing is cool like art when i came in i thought the best art wins now i'm clear art is a threshold issue
your art has to be good enough then it's all artist and narrative or narrative and artist
whichever order you want to put it in probably now these say artists and narrative it's really
narrative then artist then art and that's my observation of truth and so the tools and the technique is part of the narrative
number two uh communities i think the best way to think about it is it's impossible to start
from scratch i think i'm you look at some of the most successful people they sort of were born in
one community grew in it and that's now lead to their own communities and i'm still
in the process of being like of having it i mean i have my community in the sense that i'm very
tight with many people this game and i have my project 452b but in terms of like show up every
day relentlessly i have plans for that but really i think get in a community you love or communities
you love be yourself and then grow with those people until eventually it makes sense that there's a small group that wants to do both of you and that existing.
And for me, all this stuff I eventually did, like I went big on Mendez Mendez early last year.
But I've been hanging out with that motherfucker since 22 in month and Alpha Dog.
And then, you know, i found him that way or when i formed my first
community money click that led to the predecessor you know we changed the name and made it 452b
but all the people who joined were like had seen me in discord interacting with founders and so on
and so i think like and you look at like, look, I think VVD's,
he's obviously the biggest collector or whatever,
but he's been really remarkable in his art.
It's like his art to artists.
And often the tools he uses to make his art aren't the most complex,
but the brilliance with which he does it all.
Like, you know, he used fake rares and he's big in opep and it's helping build
him in his community further so that's kind of the i think the roadmap that's not i don't do anything
like planned but i just like to observe like what works and doesn't and so i think like
go to the communities that your heart pulls you into or your soul
really your soul not your heart but but foreign probably i think you're so on point with that and
you know reflecting on my own journey like i started with punks and that grew to like what
my projects were into and and everything has changed you know again how many group chats are we in and
all these concentric circles sense and grifters it's like those are our people and then you can
grow from there it's like choose your projects find the find that group chat and then you then
at some point you have 10 50 people for your community. Yeah.
I think two now.
How many is too many?
Because again, we're in so many group chats.
I can't even keep up with my DMs
because there's...
And I'm OCD, so my notifications are like
fucking... I gotta look at each chat
so I can clear the messages.
I turn all notifications off.
I'm too OCD. I can't have that waiting out there.
I can't have it.
No notifications.
Everyone in this community, I love
whenever everyone's like, well, look, I'm a bit
OCD, THD.
I'm like, well, turns out you found
home, bruh. Because all the
fucking everyone I know in this game has a million.
I think Emily,
as you and I,
when we were getting to know each other,
we were sort of like learning all these little peculiarities and we had so many in common.
It was crazy.
So anyway,
sorry,
go ahead.
I don't know what the answer to that is.
I try to support friends and do whatever is in my bandwidth.
I never take like money for anything.
Cause then I can do whatever I want
and it's always me giving.
And so I don't really know.
I think each of us has our own limits.
Jack's always joking.
He's like, oh, gee, I don't know how you have all this energy
to be in touch with all these things.
And I'm like, well, because I'm not smart enough
to write a few fucking words
and have people jizz their pants if I sign my name and pay fucking tons of money for it.
I have to do it the hard work way.
So I don't know what the answer is.
I'm here.
I want to have the most,
I want to support the things that are wonderful in this space.
I want to support,
honestly,
I know it's not a strong language,
but a revolution in like to a world that makes sense to me.
And so for me, I'm doing everything I can that makes me feel good.
And do I get overextended?
All the fucking time, like an idiot, and I self-abandon and I'm improving on it.
So I don't know.
I wish I had a better answer.
I probably, I mean, what I've done is just try to be a little more honest too and be like, hey, here's what I can, like not commit to doing something.
That's where I think I get feel bad.
It's like do as many as you can, but don't commit to anything that's going to cause somebody to depend on you and you unintentionally like make them feel bad when you were doing something that was supposed to be good.
So now you used all the energy and they feel bad and you feel bad so that's probably the key and look we're all humans and everything
changes so fast in this like you know i hope open c takes this like valuation off people's
wallets it's a pretty scary thing to see and like feel like i but i do like looking at the, how fast changes are. And like,
dude,
in four days I lost like,
and I traded well and so on,
but just the value of your portfolio is down like 50%,
you know,
and shit.
That's fucking,
so that shit is bugs.
One day it says one million.
The next day it says 400,000.
I don't fucking trust that shit.
So yeah.
So anyway,
all I'm saying though,
is it's like, we all have a million things on our plate and doing stuff and i think the key is
honestly i've generally i've had one or two people be little bitches but generally i've found in this
space it's the most wonderful i would say like look i'm super transparent and like my wallets
are transparent and people know what I take money
for and all that. And to me, I'm like, what a wonderful opportunity. If you're not a piece of
shit and you're just doing your best and you like admit mistakes or whenever I did something like
once I tried boosting a tweet once and the minute I did, I felt like shit. And I was just like,
kind of did confessional or whatever but i feel like this
community is so understanding so i think if you're just like do your best and you're like hey here's
what happened like you know and that's why i share a lot of stuff but i'm like yo like a month ago i
thought i had 430 000 more dollars than i do now and like my life's just going upside down and when
i was looking at shit then it seemed easy and now all of a sudden I had one tax
payment didn't hit in a tax reassessment
so I'm doing my best you know I don't know what
to tell you can I add to that dude
yeah I think
we're all afraid to feel guilty
or shame that we did something wrong
and whether you try to hide it or you
don't share it I think the moment you share
it the moment you admit it
is when things are like
the best and you become forgiven and people are bullish on you. Because I think the most
important thing here is trust and honesty. Even if you fucked up, even if you did something wrong,
even if you feel like shit or a piece of shit, admit that shit and all is good. But the more
you hide it in a transparent place, it's like you're just lying for yourself and you're lying to everybody.
And that's the lesson I learned
when we had to shut down the quantum
space. It's like, I got to
literally admit failure.
And the second I admitted failure,
shit just got better.
And it's because you're
fucking true, and people just want
that honesty, and I think that's the most
important thing. As much as you think it'll hurt it actually helps bro you nailed it and i think
like look i like to joke i only make mistakes on days that end in y so look you're gonna fuck up
if you ain't fucking up every day then you're doing something wrong you're playing it too safe
like i fuck up all the time.
And so really it's just like relationships.
Of course the good part matters,
but it's like conflict resolution,
communication,
like being honest.
Like that's the whole test here is not what to do when things are easy.
The only time somebody,
you know,
anything about them is what they did when it was hard,
when it was risky. And I definitely find like like you have to find the balance for you but yeah motherfuckers in this space like look i you know as long as you're straightforward and do your best
i'm not saying whenever you hurt people is there's always going to be a cost so i always try and never
hurt anybody but all you can do after that is what you said you nailed
it entirely so i'm with you you know what and you could always make amends with people you hurt or
you think you've hurt or hurt you and you know i heard this quantum quote like this quantum physics
quote you can change your past how you hacked in the in the present and i think that that is the most powerful advice because like
time and time is non-linear but we can we can actively change our past our future just how
about where we are right now well your narrative the narrative about your past is always told in
the context of your president i used to i saw like when somebody's doing amazing you look back
at all their history and everyone rose oh it was obvious he was a genius or she was a genius from the first instant
then you lose all your money a year later and every article is like it was obvious they were
a fucking idiot from the minute a risk taker with no you know like so in a way like it's true like
people understand their own past and others past based on where they are today.
As long as you're not committing fraud,
I think that's the most important lesson here.
I think don't lie and hurt people and shit.
But on that note, that final question,
and I think we can wrap it up after this.
Let's go Scarface for a second.
How does money poison?
How does it corrupt?
And how do you heal from that?
Yeah, man, I got to tell you, like, when I was growing up,
it was all about, like, dollars.
Like, somebody needs, like, basically, like,
the amount of money you, like, made in an ad was, like,
basically, like, an indication of, like, your value.
Which is so not fucking true and terrible.
But so what I think is if you focus on money,
it's a bit like focusing on happiness.
The same, you don't get money by focusing on money
because if you do things for money,
like businesses by definition about money so what
matters is like why are you doing this why does it matter when you're an artist why should i can't
like so i think money is not a goal it's like it points in a video game it's an outcome from doing
cool shit you know like really in this world now that's so global if you can do something cool
that people connect to that in some way changes or helps or gives them a new perspective like
the money will come you know so i just don't think focusing on money it's like
come you know so i just don't think focusing on money it's like it just doesn't it's because then
if you're like i just want to make money i'm like okay well will you do anything to make money then
how do we know what you could have there's just it's all just not the right way to approach life
in my experience so then i do think i've seen people become very very rich and been around very rich people, very poor people.
Here's what I think.
The problem with money is it makes – humans already think they're special
because it's in our DNA.
Because if you didn't think you were special and a lion was coming to eat you,
I'd be like, oh, let it eat me.
me like Justin's still here he can keep going you know um so when you get money you start thinking
Like, Justin's still here.
He can keep going.
You know?
you're better than other people has been my experience and a lot of the industries I was in
you know there's always good people but like the most entitled terrible things that I've seen are
a lot of the time like when people have money and what they do with it and I think money is like a
great amplifier it just sort of money is like a great amplifier
it just sort of can show you a lot about a person and so i've just been i've seen and i think like the movie scarface and wall street not from 1987 both like showed like what happens is you get more
money then you want more money and then i took this science of happiness class at yale after my
second i left my second wife and it was like a study of all the studies of happiness class at Yale after I left my second wife.
And it was like a study of all the studies of happiness, like meta studies of meta studies of happiness.
And what they basically said is like things don't provide us happiness because the minute you get whatever your dream thing is, some new dream thing comes out and you don't have that.
Now you want that.
All happiness comes from like experiences.
And people think we are terrible at guessing
what will make us unhappy and happy and so i just think focus on what your soul is pushing you to do
and the minute you get this money what happens is people forget that they got the money from
doing something and they change what they were doing like i saw this over and over artist or
investor or business person works insanely around the clock, gets money, then starts like granny interviews.
And instead of doing the work that made them good, they assume they're great.
And so they start just not doing the hard work that made them get right answers.
And then they blow themselves up.
So this happened to fucking me.
I'm a fucking idiot.
I like did well on some stuff.
And then I all of a sudden thought I was Mr.
Fucking Midas.
And I like launched a company and
did some big investments i totally was an idiot and them all up because i didn't do the thing
that had made me good so i just think money just leads people to do horrible things that
our society pressures people to spend all this money. And I got into a crazy situation myself
where I had all this money come in,
but I would like, so for me personally,
like now I have a nice life,
but my costs are down like 70%.
And I just like accepted where I was.
Now my life is a billion times happier.
And it's sort of crazy what money will make you
do and when unfortunately you need money for everything so tying it back to the space especially
like if you're an artist and you're living on the money from this space it's just an impossible thing
find another way to make money so you can make real art and not be under the pressure to come
up with some creative thing under massive pressure because you need money people can art has soul in it you can feel it and you can feel when there's nothing
there other than i made a piece of a picture or whatever the fuck i did rather than like yo
i like poured my soul into something so you can see the world differently
or it can impact you or open your eyes or whatever I don't know
dude I think that's a beautiful
way to put it
and you know that's the struggle too
I want to take a few more minutes
and then let's wrap it up
you do say like
we can't rely on the income
from our art but what if that's
our job like what if we don't have side gigs?
To be honest, I'm
one of those people that say I don't have other income.
I do rely on
my art, but it's not the
primal reason.
The soul is the reason,
and the result is the work
that's sold.
So to balance that...
Look, if you look in history
starving artist was a term because like most artists like were taking other jobs to make art
so if you're rare and blessed like even die was like in corporate work until very just recently
so i'm saying there's a plan i mean look you've done super well bro you've been great and you're
a g you've been here since the jump so i think like i'm more talking like
there's always artists who can live by making art but it's much fewer it's not like you know
if you look in history there wasn't like a million people around the world like like living off or i
don't know you know maybe i'm up to stats but like i just as let me put it differently for most people
when i give thoughts it's generally like what's the statistically like least risky way i can see
of getting this it doesn't mean there's not a million other ways and some people like need
to burn the bridges to like really perform their best but i just i've seen too many people in the space destroy themselves
because they bet too early because they had a few good sales they quit their job and then like
you know nfts go to zero like they often do and um so that was more what i was saying if you can do
it i mean what a glorious life what i find though even for me i just never i my own fucking brutal history of
sweating in bed with dad and shit i never want to do i never want to have or i don't have like
money coming in i mean look i may end up here but money coming in every month because otherwise like
if i lose any of my principal it hurts so much worse and
i'm like shit there's no more coming in i've got to depend on this so it's a bit my personal
experience and just data in the space but as always everyone's individual situation could
merit you know i just i mean it's more more people go into full-time art sooner than they
should and it causes them problems than the other way around.
I think you said it earlier, the best.
It's like you got to follow that instinct and trust,
and you know you're doing well and keep doing well.
If you're not sure of yourself,
then don't get rid of your day job
until you're sustained for a few years.
You need the runway,
and I think the most important thing is
how do you give yourself the runway?
How do you protect yourself?
If you do do well one year, and you don't do well for the next three,
you know, when nothing is promised, nothing is expected, you're not entitled. And I think that's
the biggest lesson. And I'm grateful that I was able to save to give myself runway for a few years
and then put it all back into the work to get a studio and now have almost nothing because it's all back into the work.
And that's the risk, and that's the fear and the beauty,
but that's the fun because nothing's safe.
Like you said again earlier, you can't get anywhere
if you're playing it too fucking safe.
I'm not saying being irresponsible, know your value,
know what you need to do, and don't buy shit you don't need like
i think the the perfect happiness for me is you know eating at the farmer's market or going with
my girlfriend to this watch the sunset by the water i think that's what that's for me pure
happiness like i don't need to go jet setting and chilling when you can be right where you are and have the most beautiful things.
That's the truth, bro.
Man, I'm so grateful for you, OG, dude.
I love when we jam and we fucking...
Thanks, bro. Me too. You too.
I actually want to end this call
by saying that I want to actually
gift you a
piece. I'm doing a
giveaway all week, and I
think
today's prompt is
what makes you free. And I feel
like everything we talked about today is finding
our freedom.
That's 100%.
I want to gift you one of the pieces,
and whoever's listening,
I encourage you to look at that
and also share about what made you free.
This whole week is about giving,
and I want to give back and give art.
I didn't want anyone
to miss that, and I also want to give to you.
Thanks, Helmy.
You give so much to this space, of your soul,
of your support.
You deserve it, too.
Oh, buddy, that means the world to me.
Yeah, man.
Is there anything else you wanted to say to wrap up or any closing thoughts?
No, I think just be kind to yourself and others.
It's not easy out here.
Everyone's trying their best.
Thank you, OG.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for your presence, your lessons.
Thanks, brother.
My pleasure always.
Thanks for having me.
I love your tattoos, by the way.
Thanks, brother.
240 hours.
I'll see you in
either Marfa or Toledo
yeah I'm gonna be
I'm up there for ACK the other
I'll see you in a few days
yeah and I'm gonna be coming to New York for the next couple
months to just feel it out like Wednesday
the first Wednesday to Sunday of the month
awesome dude well you're welcome to the studio
I do the third week in Cali
maybe not this time but the time after.
Maybe we can make that art that you put to the side
because you didn't think it was good.
I don't know. I want to encourage you.
I can show it to you.
I want to encourage you to share it.
You don't have to mint it.
Some of my good mornings I posted it.
I'll share some.
I'll share some.
Share one today, please.
Did you see the one
I ended up printing the Pepe?
Fake rare Pepe? Yeah.
That was dope, dude.
Yeah, I can share.
I'll share some more. I have them.
Share that shit, bro. You made it.
Yeah.
There's one piece that
I think I can help
inform. I did I
like these trippy ones let me see if I have one that's I chose CRT I'm gonna
send this to you bud I'm texting to you cool man all right man well all right
guys have a great have a great day for spending time with us bad love for me
thank you mad love and thanks for everyone who is listening.
Have a beautiful day.
Love you guys.
See you tomorrow.
