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Moments of the Unknown - 169
Recorded: Sept. 23, 2025 Duration: 1:07:40Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, key insights emerged about the evolving landscape of digital art and NFTs, highlighting the importance of partnerships, the growth potential of the market, and the integration of traditional finance with blockchain technology. As the art world adapts to new trends, the future looks promising for creators and collectors alike.
Full Transcription
Good morning.
Good morning.
How are you?
Good to see everybody. It's a beautiful day in the park. Birds are chirping here. mr soup i'm here good morning good morning man how you doing really well i'm really happy and
really grateful that you're here thank you so much thank you thank you this is the best gift you could ever give
I wish all of my birthday gift bars were so low I'm pretty I'm pretty low here so
no no appreciate you having me and happy birthday thank you man I'm really happy to have you you
know you're an important voice uh
contributor in the space so you know i've no i know you did so many long drawn-out conversations
with so many epic people but we'll keep it short and sweet and fun today however you want to do it
like i said i'm happy to be here i should say right off the bat i am stick as a dog right now
i have the worst cold so if it sounds like if it sounds like I'm talking from the top of Mount Everest, that's why.
I sound worse than I normally do because of that.
Otherwise, I'm excited to be here.
Well, feel better, man.
Get some ginger tea going.
I'm right up on that mountain with you.
Let's get started, shall we?
Yeah, sounds great.
Awesome.
So, Bat, I just want to say a few things um first
off thank you for everything you do on the on the account of so many artists here you're someone i
see constantly supporting people collecting art every day and that's like a big question of mine
is like how do you how do you do it what keeps you excited? Where did you start getting interested and why do you keep
showing up as you do, believing in us? And we could expand from there. I'm just so
curious that you put so much of yourself into this space and what your vision is for all of this.
your vision is for all of this. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. Thank you.
It's probably part midlife crisis and part unhealthy addiction. Some combo of those two.
I'm just kidding, by the way. I'll give you the brief summary, and I'm happy to
dive deeper on any of these. But I spent most of my life basically using, which side is it? The left side of your brain is the math side and the right side,
I think is the art side. So whatever the side of the brain, I believe that's correct.
I've only, only, only ever used one side of my brain. And then back in 2020, late 2020,
I kind of found this space sort of randomly.
It's a long, drawn-out story.
It has to do with Polymarket and me being a DJ over there,
but I won't bore you with that right now.
I've mentioned it before on another podcast.
And it just sort of took off.
It's weird.
I never in a million years thought I'd be on the art side of things ever.
I'm a horrible, horrible creator. I mean, a million years thought I'd be on the art side of things ever. I'm a horrible,
horrible creator. I mean, just God awful. And I just, you know, I tried to take up the violin
and I basically played the violin for three years. This was about five, six years ago.
I took lessons for about three years and I just couldn't get it. And I remember the day I told my
violin instructor, I said, you know, I just don't know that this is for me.
You know, I'm not very good at this
and I'm just really not making a lot of progress.
And she said, okay.
So, you know, you would think
that there would be a little pushback there.
I mean, I paid her a godly amount of money
over three years to teach me a violin
and I just couldn't get it.
I just don't have the genes.
So it's fun. For me, this is a lot of
fun. It's a way to live vicariously through people who do know how to create. I love watching it. I
love being a part of it. And frankly, showing up and supporting the space is part of my life journey
where I was sort of in take mode. Well, I'll tell you a story. I'll back up. So I went to a conference one time.
This is way back.
I'm going to date myself here, but this is way back.
And it was right around the time the internet was really starting to take off.
And Yahoo, you may remember, for those of you who don't, yahoo.com was actually like
a major, major player in the early web.
And I went to a conference and Jerry Yang, who was the creator
of Yahoo, said something that is sort of like he meant it for the internet, but actually I think
it applies to life, which is leave more than you took. And that's always resonated with me. I've
always remembered that. And I'm just at the point in my life where I spent a lot of time
in the financial services business, taking, taking, taking, you know, making rich folks richer and just sort of like not very rewarding.
And now I'm in the leave more than I took phase of my life.
And yeah, that's just, you know, when you start thinking that way, it just makes it a lot easier to support.
Can I jump in?
Part of this.
Yeah, please.
I really, really admire that statement and, you know, leave more than you take can just be more than online.
I'm going to tell you a funny little story about sacred sites.
When you go to these sacred sites, and we went to all of them in this project, Traveling the World.
And today is one of them at Stonehenge.
I learned very quickly, you collect bad karma if you collect stones from
these places and the silliness the naivete in me like wanting to collect a stone from every sacred
site and i did that during this project and when we got to the last sacred site i kind of gave it
all back and left it and returned to all the places i went to and put the stone back. And I feel like, again, to give more than you can take,
also, like, how can you give more to places like a sacred site?
And I'm using this as a metaphor.
I learned that taking garbage out of a sacred site from the pyramids,
from the stone hedges, if you could take garbage out of these places,
that's kind of a karmic cleanup.
And for your point i think and i
want to dive deeper and how that how what that means to you karmically energetically artistically
you know when you when you but but also it's like how could you say that like if you're making
people rich like where is the taking coming from right and the other part of that question is if
you're someone new to let's say this space
how do you contribute or or if you've been part of the space and you have been a taker how do you
transform that energy into into that giving energy rather than the taking like how do you leave more
than you take and as an artist and a collector what would you say to that? Yeah, I think it's a really good question.
I think it's unfair of me, first of all, to project my life onto anyone else.
I will never, ever judge anyone else in this space,
so long as they're not a crook or a rugger,
which we seem to have an abundance of around here.
But I'm just in that phase of my life.
But I totally appreciate that most people are not in that phase of their life
simply because they're trying to build themselves up, build a family.
I've been unbelievably fortunate to be where I am today.
I count my blessings every single day.
So I don't want to project too much of my experience on anyone else just because I think it's kind of, I'm in a different life phase. What I would say is that there are very, very simple things to do that you could, that do give
back to the community. You know, like, for example, I see Delta Sauce on this call. Hi, Delta.
Like, or Chakai or Fungi. Like, people in this space are giving back all the time that have no
financial reward whatsoever. They're just doing it to be supportive. Like, you know,
what are the ways to do that? Well, you know, the obvious way is to buy a piece of art. Okay.
We could start there. But if you're not in a financial position where, you know, you can do that, there's so many other ways, right? I mean, you could join these spaces and be a contributor.
You could, you know, like, I just think like if somebody posts a nice piece, right? Like something that you like, just take two
seconds and say, hey, this is, you did a really good job on this. You wouldn't believe how far
that goes, right? I mean, it's like just some encouragement, right? I mean, we just came through
the valley of death in one of the worst bear markets I've seen. Thankfully, we're starting
to come out of it, but I don't think we're fully out of it yet. And like the people who lived through that probably have a bit of scar tissue.
I know I do.
And just hearing from somebody that says, you know, like this is a really cool piece.
I can't afford it, but like you did a good job on it.
Or just going to like, like if you live in the NYC, you know, just pop into NFT NYC and have a little fun.
You know, just as an aside here, I think having fun around here is like part of the
process, right? I just think like I have yet to do much other than get shit stolen out of my wallet.
I have yet to do much where I just wasn't having a good time while I was doing it, you know? So,
you know, you get the added bonus of giving back to the space, but also just enjoying yourself.
You know, I went to Toledo.
I didn't get to Toledo in September last week, I suppose it was.
But I went in July.
There was sort of their, I don't want to call it a soft opening, but it was like their first opening.
And I just had, I mean, it was so fun.
And how much money did that cost?
Well, it cost me a plane ticket and a hotel room.
And again, I appreciate not everybody can do that,
but there are events like that all around the world, right?
I mean, there's France, there's Portugal, New York.
I mean, there's just, you know, Singapore has a great one.
So like there's stuff you could do where you're giving back,
but also having fun.
And I think people would be shocked at how far that goes.
I want to add to what you're saying and say, you know,
also, if you're not part of these
things and you don't have the ability you can create it from nothing you could create it like
we've created these spaces from zero to 169 and you know i've been blessed to see all these people
who join me up here for for and talk to me for about whatever art but like it just goes to show
like you don't need to join anything you can create that thing whether it's your own you know art event or a twitter space it's like you know invite
people to talk and to your other point i really appreciate that you said that it's like you know
so many of us artists want to be seen and maybe even collectors on the things that they collect
and the artists they support it's like it this is social media. We want to engage in a conversation, in a dialogue.
And I think we would get so much further
if we really dove deeper into what these artworks mean to us,
the stories, the memories, the connections,
and all these different elements that make the art come to life,
that we breathe life into it.
Other than just sitting on our wallet,
I think there's an importance to where's the dialogue?
I'm not saying criticisms or reviews,
like what makes you want to collect these things?
What part of that your brain is activated
when you look at this piece or you post this piece
or you're interested in that?
And I think those are the interesting conversations
because then we can really get somewhere yeah yeah i agree i mean just having the conversation i think is is
a big step but but i i appreciate it's not for everyone you know like i mean we're not it's not
a requirement that you come here and contribute like just showing up you know i i sit on a couple
boards and you know we joke all the time like just showing up sometimes is half the battle, right?
So just showing up and you don't have to be here every single day
or you don't have to bend over backwards and do things.
But the point is it doesn't take much.
It just doesn't take much.
How long does it take to literally respond to somebody's artwork
and just say, hey, this meant a lot and i
really appreciate what you did here so i want to uh dive a little deeper into your collection and
i think you said it earlier that and i agree with you this is an addiction like it's it's so much
it's so much fun finding art that you love and then maybe not buying it the first time you see
it but you think about it and and it takes weeks and maybe a month be like you know what i want this and then it connects or something
happens i think there's that that there's that factor in like am i fomoing into this or am i
genuinely interested in this and i want to get your thoughts on how you make those decisions
um when when looking at our art and collecting and do you go through that process? Or is it more of a just like rapid fire action for you?
I go through this crisis all the time.
So I started off, I mean, again,
I don't know shit about art, right?
So I started off, this is 2020.
I just wanted to check it out.
Like never in a billion years
did I think I'd be sitting here
doing spaces with you
five years later, right? I mean, the whole thing was sort of like just a dip my toe type of thing.
So the answer is, I don't know if I have a good eye for art or not. My guess is I still don't,
but I do think it's improved. So I've read a lot of books. I've taken classes online. I've
sort of done my thing, but I don't feel, I've read a lot of books. I've taken classes online. I've, you know,
I've sort of done my thing, but I don't feel like I have the credibility to be deciding what's good
art or what's not art. I mean, you could argue that no one does and it's highly subjective and,
you know, art is just art. And I believe there's a lot of merit to that argument, but I'm definitely
not the person like high on anyone's list to be deciding what's good art. Okay. So with that aside,
how do I decide? You know, I would say there's a couple of buckets. Bucket number one is,
and I hate to say this because it's going to revel feathers, but price does matter, right? I mean,
price, like, I mean, if let's just maybe take an extreme example, if somebody listed an X copy to one of one today for one ETH, there's not a person on this call who wouldn't be scrambling to go grab it, right? It doesn't really matter what the art looks like. It's an X copy one of one and people would be like, I get to that without filter number one. And filter number one is do I like the work?
And what is the criteria for whether or not I like the work?
Well, one of the easy ones is I see it and then I can't stop thinking about it.
And five days later, I'm like, oh, screw it.
I'm getting this because I can't stop thinking about it, which means like it touched a chord
and it resonated.
And I'm not a very spiritual person.
So I'm sure there's a better person on this call that can describe this way better than I can,
but it's just sort of like that gut feel where, you know, wow, this, they did a really awesome
job on this and it looks great. And I just, I don't know, I really would like to have this piece.
So that's sort of number one, every once in a while, there's, there's something that is just like, oh my gosh, this is outrageously good.
And you just want to grab it immediately.
I'm trying to think of a really good example that I'm going to look here real quick.
But like, oh, here we go.
Yeah, so Jared, whose name is Away I Flew on Twitter, did this drop called Surface Tension, and it's a photography drop.
And immediately I saw the piece I wanted, and I apologize if Mayama Matt's on this call.
I didn't mean to blast him into smithereens bidding on this thing, but that's kind of what happened.
And I was just like, I have to have this. So every once in a while, you come across a piece like that, where you're just like, this is just
really spectacular. Now, would, I don't know, if Jerry Saltz were on this call, would he be like,
this is spectacular? I mean, he might say, Bats, you're a fucking idiot. And you know,
you don't know what you're doing. And I would say, yeah, you're right. But I don't care. It's,
you know, like, I just, I like the piece and i'm gonna grab it and
and um you know price matters a lot less in a situation like that so it's kind of all over
the map anyway i hope i answered your question a bit long-winded i do no no i have a few questions
based on those buckets one of them being like you know i want to just say the questions before i
forget them one of them being you know let's talk about x copy and branding and
why the social census why any of us would pick up a one-on-one for one is is it the price is it the
legacy let's that's one question the second question is again for art that you truly love
is there a price where maybe the artist priced it too high or how do you value the work based on your
your um interest in it and and where do you meet in the based on your, your, um, interest in it? And, and where do you
meet in the middle with the art if it might be a little too high for you? So how do you, you know,
intrinsically value artworks, you know, especially from an artist who might start taking that risk
on. So I want to understand how you value these things. And the third thing is, I don't think you give enough credit to yourself.
I think you do have taste. I think whenever I try to bid on stuff, I already see that you're
10th ahead of the game there. But I think I want to know what you think, how to build taste.
Is it over time? Is it over looking at many things? Is it by collecting things? And how do you tell, you know, you collect so much work.
How are you, what story are you telling through your collection, if at all?
So I know that I hit you with four things, but whichever way you want to take this.
Okay.
Start at number one.
Let's do that one first.
So go ahead.
What was number one again?
That was like brand name, X copy, why any of us would buy it for one ETH because of the money.
How does an artist build their brand to that point? Or how have you seen that to the point
where any of us would want that? Right. So it's hard. I appreciate that it's hard.
There's only like, what, you know,
maybe a dozen who, you know,
have sort of reached that, you know,
six-figure and higher, you know,
regular sales threshold,
which I think every artist kind of aspires to at a minimum.
And, you know, how did someone like XCopy do it?
How did somebody like Beeple do it?
It is, I mean, I mean, there's no magic formula.
I mean, it really does start with great art.
You know, we could debate again, you know,
if you like Beeple or you like XCopy or, you know,
Claire Silver or whomever, you know, Sam Spratt.
You could debate on whether or not it's good art,
you know, whether or not it's good art, but the market has decided that it is good art.
but the market has decided that it is good art.
And that's the first filter.
the additions in addition to the one of ones. And I made this point on with Raoul Paul a couple
weeks ago, which is that you want your art in as many hands as possible, right? I mean, you want it,
the value of, this is called Metcalfe's law,
the value of a network increases exponentially the more nodes there are. Well, the node in this
case is a collector and you want your art in as many collectors' hands as you possibly can,
because those people instantly become fans. You know, I mean, if you airdrop it to them,
maybe they're not a fan of yours, but if they proactively connect their wallet and grab a piece of art of yours they have voluntarily said i am a
fan of your art that is super super valuable can i can i pause you right there go ahead on that note
i was already planning on doing this and to your to your point it's like hey everyone in this room
who's listening right now send me a dm because today's Polaroid that I usually give out every day, I want to give to everyone who's listening.
So send me your wallet address and a DM and I'm going to airdrop everyone who's listening who cares a Polaroid NFT for today's video.
So I just wanted to prove you your point by doing that.
And I'm going to send you one also later
tonight. So sorry to interrupt.
I just wanted to take that opportunity to
do that.
Please continue.
I don't want people to get them thinking, though, that
you should give your art away for
free to get as many hands as possible. I think that's
underselling yourself. I'm not saying you,
Justin. I think this is an awesome offer.
I just want to make the point that like,
additions are really good for getting your art
in the hands of people who just aren't going to spend
one ETH, 10 ETH, 100 ETH on your art.
And then the next time you do a drop,
you know, maybe like, I don't know,
if you had an addition of whatever, 200.
Maybe there's one or two people in that cohort that say, oh, I really like this piece.
You know, I have a piece already by Justin and I'm going to go down that path.
I'm not saying it's a foolproof method.
I just think that it's a different way to think about distribution, especially of art.
Because I think in the child art world, a lot of people get stuck on this supply argument. And I admit, I myself did early on. You know, we have to restrict supply,
but there's strict supply. And I actually think it's the opposite. I think you want a lot of
supply across different cohorts. You want one of ones, you want additions, you want, you know,
additions of 10, the most famous, possibly the, I mean, I certainly think it's probably the highest market cap edition out there, but you know, last selfie is 10 pieces.
And the market cap based on last sale, that was $11 million, you know, 10 times 1.1 was the last
sale. And, you know, I don't know that there's a lot of one of ones out there right now that would
sell for $11 million. So, you know, sometimes these additions can do really, really well.
And it's a good way to get your art accessible to people.
The problem with additions is that a lot of them just go to zero.
So you have to be mindful of price.
Like, you know, it's hard for me to think about an artist, you know, let's just say an average sales artist,
not an average art artist, but an average sales artist selling additions,
you know, as an edition of 10 for one ETH each,
because, you know,
you've got to kind of leave a bad taste
in the collector's mouth
if one ETH goes to, you know,
0.1 in a matter of months, right?
So there's that to think about as well.
Can I actually ask a question,
a mid question beyond those other questions
that's very important to what you're talking about? You can ask mid questions if you expect a mid a mid question beyond those other questions that's very uh important to what
you're talking about and you can ask mid questions if you expect a mid answer i love your mid i love
your mid answer because they're genius so i'm gonna keep i'm gonna keep i'm gonna keep uplifting
you because i know you know don't be too hard on yourself man you you're a fucking gem in this
space so i appreciate it thank you so hear me hear me out. Supply and demand, right? And I've
received this from collectors who say, oh, don't release your new project till your floor is up
to meet, you know, the demand. And, you know, when you create oversupply, and I realize it's
like, you know what, people don't want to see the same shit over and over again, just because
you're trying to sell yourself to get your the floor back it's like you need to create new and show people what you're working on new
and be mindful of the floor yes and your evaluations and your prices but that's not like
how artists think it's like what what is how am I going to express this idea and you know maybe
some artists think how am I going to sell this but it's like how how do those two places meet
in the middle right and where is the balance
there and i think we need to create that balance but for someone like you i'm curious how you um
evaluate supply and demand and how does what if one supply increases how do you evaluate uh value
and and how does one create more demand if if they're if they're already oversupplied?
I'm curious about that personally.
Well, I would say a couple things.
One, there is certainly a limit, right?
I mean, you can't be an artist and release 10,000 one-of-ones in a year, right?
I mean, that would just be outrageous.
And the limit is not the number of pieces.
The limit is on your creativity, right?
I don't know an artist on planet Earth that has 10,000 interesting things to say through their creativity, right? I mean, you're lucky if you get a couple a year, not you, but artists in general. So you have to consider, like, you know,
I think Patrick Amidon is really good at this. Like, he'll put out art that speaks to him,
that he thinks, you know, might speak to other people,
but sometimes it doesn't. And he kind of packs up and moves on to the next idea that he has.
And he kind of limits it in a way that isn't, you know, he's got plenty of art out there,
but it's not outrageous. It's not a, you know, it's not like he's putting out a thousand one-on-ones,
but I think like a lot of this stuff is thoughtful. Like I look at the moments of the unknown that you have and like so many of these pieces are
very, very thoughtful, like cool and interesting pieces. Would you say that all 365 are going to
be in that category? You know, probably not. So, you know, the way to think about it, I think,
is like, you know, creativity needs to resonate not just with the artist, but with the collector. And it's going to be very hard to satisfy both of those criteria with a high supply on an annual
basis. I mean, even the most genius artists on planet Earth couldn't pump out that much volume
that is meaningful. So there's a balance there. What is that balance? I have no idea. I mean,
it's up to the artist and it's up to, you know, whatever they want to say. You know, like,
Coldy, I think, is working on a project called Filthy Fiat, which I think is
such a cool testament to what, where we are monetarily these days. And I know he's been
working on it for a very, very long time. And when he's ready to say something, it'll come out,
you know, like, you know, and I think that like, just kind of that thoughtful approach,
I think is really important.
You had a second part to your question.
I forget what it was because my brain scrambled from being sick.
Well, you've answered that whole question perfectly. And I'll also, you know, echo what you're saying.
It's like, I don't think all 366 of these are perfect and none of them should be.
And that's the beauty of doing something every day is like
you're gonna have your shitty days and you're gonna have the best days and maybe there's only
12 amazing days and that's that's being an artist it's about the process it's about the journey it's
like not everything is perfect and i love that imperfection and that's kind of like what makes
it human that's what makes us human um yeah i mean i have to say when when i have a shitty
day there's only like two people that know about it when an artist and every artist has a shitty
day every there's not a single artist of planet i mean even picasso has shitty art well you you all
have to bury your soul to the public which man i don't know i don't think i could pull that off
so hats off to you well you know the funniest thing about the worst art you make is that's where you're the greatest lesson lives.
And once you embrace those pieces or those ideas that you deem as failures and, you know, you want to hide away from those.
But really, you want to stand by those because that's the moment you grew.
That was the moment you learned something that I never want to do this again or that that fucking sucks.
And that's forever, especially on the blockchain. And I think there's something about strength when you can,
you know, admit failure. And I think that's the beauty when you, when, because it's a projection
or reflection of yourself, it's like, that's, that's me at my worst. And I love that.
I try, I try, I, you know, it took me years to get there, but there, there's a time where you,
I try, I try, I, you know, it took me years to get there, but there, there's a time where you,
you can, you can acknowledge it and it's okay. So the other question, uh, on that list of questions
was, um, you know, bidding on work that, you know, you love, but how do you meet in the middle of
like, maybe it's priced too high. How do you, how do you find that middle ground or it's an artist
you're taking a risk on or learning about
and it might be a little like two or three i don't want to say prices but you were only willing to
spend 0.5 to one how do you you know where does that connect to you when when you love a piece
but it's kind of out of out of range you know right right so there's so the sweet spot for that
for the price expands based on how much I love the work.
So I'll say that.
If there's an auction going on from 0.1, maybe I'd be willing to go up to 1 ETH for a piece versus half an ETH for something.
So price does matter quite a bit.
I don't have unlimited resources.
I wish I had it.
I wish I could buy art from every person on this call right now.
But I mean, there's a limit, right? So the answer to that question, here's how I've
approached it in the past. A lot of times I just don't get the piece, which sucks, but, you know,
there's definitely four or five pieces in my, in just in the last 12 months where I was like,
in the last 12 months where I was like,
ah, shit, I wish I would have, I really wish I would have bid more on that. You know, like,
I really wish I would have bid more on that.
You know, like, I definitely have that feeling.
Putting that aside for a moment,
the really, what I'll do a lot of the times is
if there's not a piece on auction,
but somebody releases it.
So there's an artist,
I think I saw him on here earlier named Photon Tide.
Faux, we call him.
And he had a piece out that I really liked.
It was in the Super Rare show. This was probably about four or five a piece out that i really liked it was in the super rare show um this
was probably about four or five months ago and i really liked it but it was priced it was it was
too high for me it was higher than i wanted to pay and the show came and went and it didn't sell
and so i just i we had never talked before i just respectfully you know i'm very wary of doing this
because i just i don't want to insult any creators because creators deserve whatever they think their piece is worth.
But I very respectfully just DM'd him and I just said, hey, I think you had, I can't remember what it was.
I think the piece was priced at 5 ETH.
Would you be willing to accept, and I think we settled on 3 ETH for this piece.
If not, that's totally fine.
I get it.
But I really like the work and I think it's great.
And I hope this isn't insulting. It's kind of in line with your last sales,
which I think it was. And we just had this great dialogue and settled on a price. It was great.
It turned out really well. And I got the piece and he was able to sell it. So if it's something
that I really want and it's sitting out there, I generally will inquire about
it. It doesn't happen terribly often, especially now because I'm not, I'm not, I haven't been doing
a ton of buying of late. So like, but, but that's like one way to do it is just, you know, everybody's
basically got open DMs and you can contact them somehow. And that's to me a way to do it. Now,
if it's a collector selling a piece, I'm much more, I would say, gloves off about it all.
You know, like, I'll be like, you know, whatever.
I can't remember the last piece I bought from a collector.
Rudy, Rudy Adler, I think was one that comes to mind.
And, you know, I just DM'd him and I said,
you have this piece listed at whatever, it was 15.
And I said, would you be willing to accept 12 for it,
which is sort of in line with last sales and he said yes so there's different ways to approach it
um i don't know that i really answered your question but that's that's my no no you you did
because i'm because a lot of us like we we definitely deserve it we are worthy you know we
some of us like myself think very highly of themselves. So it's like, how do you get grounded and say, you know,
my work is actually worth this much.
And I honestly like to take the route of charging at least underneath or,
you know, between 0.2 to one ETH, depending on the project.
And cause I like to see my collectors win. I like to,
I like to see the secondary action, especially when there was royalties,
you know, that,
that's the fun in the space of what makes it exciting when things get jumping around and
between people and the price grows organically and you know i'm just i like to see everyone win
you know and like how do you share in the upside and but also how do you keep your value especially
if you're paying for rent and supplies like you, there's got to be a number that's like the bottom line there, right?
Yeah, definitely.
Sorry, I was coughing, coughing for it there for a second.
Yeah, there is definitely, I mean, I wish I could say again that, you know, I had unlimited
amounts of money.
I could buy everything at the price being asked for, but there's definitely a limit.
And, you know, I think the artists that I've seen do really well at this have sort of slowly built it up over time.
It doesn't guarantee success, but you know, if you're an artist just joining the space,
the story that you tell about yourself five years from now is much easier on you to tell if you started low and ended high than if you started high and ended low.
Now, that doesn't mean that the latter is in any way catastrophic or anything like that.
I just think that it's an easier story if you build it up over time.
And I do think people pay attention to that.
I think collectors pay a lot of attention to that.
So I'll leave it there.
And if you want to dig into that more i'm happy to a little bit a little digging um you know i think we've seen the most successful
collections sell for zero to a hundred dollars just claim price and you know those are well off
in the hundreds of thousands at this point and there's something there's something to acknowledge
and to be said about and not and not trying to replicate those things but being
earnest and how you as an artist approach that or if it means you know you don't have to copy that
but how does that conceptually work with your art or your process and i think you know there's less
risk when when there's more reward and rewarding collectors like who knows for example the polaroids
i give today for
basically for free will be worth anything at all or maybe the most worthy of them all like
and i want to understand your perspective of time especially if you know right now some of us aren't
doing so well and over a longer period of time as we as we age and new technologies and institutions. And I do want to talk about institutions for a few minutes.
How does time factor in when we zoom out?
Like we're very zoomed in.
Let's zoom a little bit out.
How does time function with value and art
and what we're doing here too?
Yeah, good question.
So let's back up to 2020, 2021. I would have thought we would have been a lot
further along by now. You know, I think Eli posted the other day something along the lines of, you
know, something along the lines of, you know, we basically have the same number of collectors today
as we did five years ago. And that's probably not that far off. I haven't dug into it myself,
but probably not terribly far off. So I would dug into it myself, but probably not terribly far off.
So I would have thought we'd be a lot further along.
That said, we have survived a lot of bullets, right?
I mean, we survived a huge, huge just implosion of PFPs,
punks excluded, that dragged down everything.
We survived FTX. We survived, you know, this last downturn was a really brutal one.
And I think what's happening is at the end of the day, art is art, right?
I just don't think that you can distinguish anymore between trad art and digital art because
it's just art.
So I don't think we're there yet.
I think there's still a gap there. I've sort of given up on thinking that TradArt's going to come and start buying pieces in
a major way. But on the other hand, we've had a slew of new great collectors in the last six
months. I mean, people like Benji, people like DGMD, people like Thor like we've had quite a few new crop of collectors jump in,
SQDA, like it's just, you know, it's just patience. That being said, I do think it's
taken a lot longer than I thought. And I think there's many reasons for that, which we could go
into, but that's sort of how I view things right now. It's just going to be slow and steady. So when you mentioned time,
I'm thinking about this in terms of the next 10 years,
not in terms of the next 10 months.
I definitely want to spend more time on that subject
and why you think it hasn't happened yet.
But before we go there,
I think it's safe to say we don't know what we don't know.
And like there are people who are looking or friends are being brought in slowly over time.
And there were a slew of new collectors that might not have been around.
When those collectors from 2020 to 2020 who aren't even around anymore.
So it's kind of funny how things move and shape and evolve.
And new players, new narrative, are you know new voices and how does art hold up if the same
projects then now or even in the future are being talked about by different people or not at all
and like how does that how do you see that effect um well I'll go back to what I said earlier I
think the difference between the art you see here
amongst us and the art you see anywhere else
on planet Earth is that we have the benefits of networking.
So it's networked art.
My colleague 6529 and I have discussed this a bunch.
It's more his idea than my idea,
so I wanna give him credit.
But he's right, it is networked art.
So it is art of the internet. It is art of the
internet. So when I think about the next, you know, let's say 10 years, if you go to, so I
subscribe to Artnet and I put in my favorite artists that, you know, I really like here and
there. And, you know, every once in a while, like once a week, I'll get a DM from
them or I'm sorry, an email from them. And it says, oh, you know, this David Vronovic is on sale or
this, you know, whatever is on sale and you could buy it. Okay, great. So if I buy that piece, you
know how many people know that that piece is hanging up in my house? Like three, right? And
maybe like I have a cocktail party and a bunch of people join and whatever.
So the difference is that rather than have this as sort of like an insular type of experience where,
you know, if you look at a Sotheby's auction, you don't know who won the last Rothko at $100 million, right? I mean, we think it was a Russian oligarch, but we don't know.
I mean, why wouldn't you want people to know that you own
that? Well, the main reason is you don't want to get robbed. But like when you're on the internet,
who cares? So my view is of the future is that it's going to take time. I mean, I have to be
honest with you. I think that the tooling right now is atrocious still. I mean, I don't know how,
but like dealing with ETH, dealing with MetaMask
or whatever wallet you're using, dealing with like getting rugged and private keys and all
that, it's just a giant pain in the ass.
You know, hats off to everyone here collecting and creating because you've overcome more
barriers than you probably would think.
So that's a giant point of friction.
But I think the bigger issue is that, and the reason why I feel so bullish on this is
that the networked aspect of this over time, I think will shine through eventually,
you know, we're really fighting Google and Apple and Twitter and Elon and all this, because you
know, they're trying to hold on to businesses and keep NFTs out of their walled gardens. But that
that'll change eventually, I think the forces will be be too strong so why do you think that is
why are they guarding the wall well if you think about like an easy example for me is to think
about it as like fortnight or call of duty gaming i think is a really good example so they if you
play fortnight i don't play fortnight i've watched people play it before it looks cool but you know
they have all these things called skins which like you can wear different outfits like they have a
neo skin where you can dress up as Neo from the Matrix.
Or they have like, you know, like hundreds of different skins.
Well, why wouldn't they make all those skins NFTs, right?
You finish playing the game.
You're like, oh, I'm done with this.
I'm tired of Fortnite.
You could sell your skin.
You know, that Neo skin, I don't know, would sell for a thousand bucks.
And then, you know, the person buying it is happy.
The person selling it is done with the game.
They're happy.
So why wouldn't they do that?
The reason why is because they make a shit ton of money off of not doing it.
They're incentivized not to do it, right?
It's called a walled garden.
They don't want, they want to keep that ecosystem closed.
Roblox is the same way.
You know, just in gaming, it's a lot easier.
So if you extend that out to things like Meta's metaverse or things like Apple's ecosystem, they're strongly incentive to not allow public goods penetrate that ecosystem.
So that's why.
It's just going to take a lot of time.
It's going to take a blockchain native game to have a real breakthrough there, I think.
Or, you know, somebody to create an open source metaverse, which we've tried and failed
to do, but it doesn't mean it's not going to happen.
So I think that's the biggest reason. Well, you know, I was just thinking
as you said that, do you foresee a future where all these things
that we're collecting now, all the art, all the gaming, all the skins, and all the future
elements that they'll be selling with their inbox mystery boxes for their games will all be
integrated so we could play these in game worlds. And maybe there will be a game where we can,
you know, bring in the art and show it and shoot and Fortnite it up. And like, how,
how do all these things coalesce? Or are we just digitally hoarding all this shit that just hides
in our wallet? Like how, how are the tech companies not gonna integrate it because i feel like
you know if we have apple pay i feel like at some point it just seems too obvious for there to just
be a wallet that's just native to use so i don't know the answer are we too are we too optimistic
about this right i don't know the answer i definitely was too optimistic about this a few years ago i think i'm more realistic about it now i don't know the answer. I definitely was too optimistic about this a few years ago. I think I'm more realistic about it now. I don't know the answer
to this. I will say a couple of things. One, they're going to be drag kicking and screaming
to do it, right? I mean, you're not going to see the creator of a Call of Duty voluntarily give up
that ecosystem and just allow people to sell their guns all of a sudden, right? So it's going to happen slowly. However,
we are becoming increasingly digital native, right? So that secular tailwind, I think,
is impenetrable over time. There is no chance in my mind that our kids and our kids' kids and
their kids and their kids, like we are just continuing to become more digitally native.
That is a massive tailwind for verifiable digital objects on blockchain,
whether it's art, whether it's a coupon at your local restaurant,
whether it's a ticket to go see a concert, whatever.
That is a super, super valuable.
Intangible digital objects are incredibly valuable in a digital world.
So I don't know the right path and I don't know the answer and I don't even have a good
guess as to the answer.
I just think it's more trust the fact that we are becoming more digitally native and
we're going to get there at some point.
But we're clearly not there yet or even close.
I mean, like I said, I'm thinking about this in 10 years rather than 10 months well as we should it's like how is the technology
evolving who are the people coming and also the generations shifting and which is which leads me
to my next question for you because you kind of just touched on it a little bit um you know we're
so obsessed in this space to want like the old institutions, the old vanguard, all the people to validate us who have what we think is the wealth and the money and the power and the new generations who grow up with this, who develop with this, and who will receive that wealth transfer in the next 10 or so years? Where should we put our focus when building or even thinking of who the audience is?
Is it the old? Is it the new?
Where are we between those places?
Well, a couple thoughts.
That's a great question.
I have my own opinions on this, so I will give you my opinion. I just want to say that it is highly, highly subjective.
I expect a lot of disagreement with this, but I'm going to say it anyway.
Please don't flame me on Twitter.
I think that if you look at this particular technology,
the divide between, let's just,
for lack of a better way to think about it,
between Boomer and Zoomer
is as wide as anything else you can possibly find, or at least that I've
been able to find. Like if you sit down a 20-year-old kid and a, let's just say, you know,
75-year-old, you know, their grandparent, and you recorded a discussion about, let's not even get
into NFTs. Let's just talk about blockchain, Bitcoin. Okay. Yeah. They
probably heard of Bitcoin. I don't know about this technology. You know, like I think there's
going to be a lot of skepticism. Okay. Now go to the second most easy one to understand, Ethereum.
I think you're going to lose almost all of the 75 year olds. Right. So I think because of that,
and I mean, I used to hold out hope that we could overcome this. I don't think we're going
to be able to overcome it. I think it's a generational divide that is too big. And I
don't want to count out everybody in that age cohort, because I think it's terribly ageist and
horrible thing to think about. But if you're thinking about where to allocate resources in
the future, I think almost all resources should go towards the younger generations who are up and
coming, who are digitally, more digitally native than even you or I are. They grew up with iPads
in their hands and iPhones. And those are the folks who are going to really get this. And I
think as you see blockchain, especially Bitcoin, but Ethereum as well and Solana and others,
as you see blockchain becoming more and more important in people's lives,
I think the natural evolution is digital objects, verifiable digital objects.
And sadly, I think this is going to take a while.
Like I said, I think 10 years.
But I do think it's inevitable.
I think so, too. Everything's kind of leading in that direction. And, you know, my, my, my last two questions for you are, are the thing about
taste and maybe we could end on that note on a, on a, on a, either bitter or sweet note,
but the question that leads us there, um, we, we just talked about the generations. Totally forgot what I was going to ask you.
Shit.
No, no, no, no, I figured it out. It was about
you know, network art
and we're all connected to the network.
Is there a future where this all
doesn't pan out or is it too
interconnected
where this culture just
penetrates mainstream? how you know we're
all here every day and you know i feel like there's more people coming in especially at creativity
uh money so do is there a future where this all literally goes nowhere
okay so let me define what this means okay so art has been around since the dawn of humanity.
I have a very, very, I mean, nothing in this world is absolute.
So I'm going to leave out the possibility that yes, it won't go anywhere.
My view is in art, art is art.
And I see very, very low probability that this doesn't pan out.
Now, what does pan out mean?
I don't know.
Like maybe we stagnate on price. Maybe we stagnate on collectors. Maybe we stagnate on artists.
Any of those could happen. But the fact that it is art and art lasts centuries,
I have a very, very difficult time not seeing the art aspect of this quote unquote workout,
however you want to define workout.
So that one to me is easy mode. I don't even think about it. I don't, I lose zero sleep thinking
I'm going to wake up one day and all of my art will be zero. And I will have had a lot of fun
in these last five years and I will own some beautiful creativity, but financially it didn't
work out, you know, ho ho, fine, whatever. I don't think
about that. I don't think it's, I don't really think it's in the realm of possibility, but again,
the world is probabilities and not absolutes. So I'm willing to hold out the fact that it could be.
A lot of other things I think we've already seen this play out are not going to work out. I mean,
there's a lot of experimentation and some of it is really cool. For example, Punk's strategy, I think, is a really interesting way to approach NFTs.
And I'm skeptical.
I mean, naturally, it's just sort of my persona.
I'm naturally skeptical.
But Rhinotic and Adam is a genius.
And some of this stuff is really cool.
I really like it.
Will that work out?
I don't know.
You know, Eileen, no, but actually maybe yes.
So, you know, or like, um, um, um, like there was some stuff that, uh, Snoop Dogg did around
NFTs for a long time and he's still working on it actually, where, you know, you, I don't know
why this idea hasn't gotten stronger. I think it's because people just, there's just aren't
enough people that are willing to deal with wallets right now, but like having a cool NFT from a concert experience strikes me as a really good idea.
Stuff like that, like mementos, collectibles, things like that.
Will that stuff work out?
I don't know, but what does work out mean?
You go to a concert, and for $50, you get a Snoop Dogg NFT.
Like, maybe you don't care if it works out.
Maybe you don't care if it works out.
Maybe it's just something cool to have around.
Like, I have some weird collecting habits,
and I've got, like, Atari video games from way back, you know,
and I don't know what workout means in those.
Like, I'm not sitting on them thinking they'll be worth millions of dollars someday.
I just kind of like having them because it's fun.
So I think there's different definitions of workout.
I do think most of the non-art stuff still is highly speculative.
But, you know, we're moving into this phase of NFTs and tokenization where, you know, real world assets are going to get tokenized.
Even BlackRock's working on this right now.
So, you know, I just think that the way to think about this is a rising tide will lift all boats.
about this is a rising tide will lift all boats blockchain technology is still misunderstood by
most of the population and by most i mean probably like 90 plus and as a greater understanding and
trust is built on that on top of that it naturally will affect us as well so you know you you raise a
really good point i just need to ask the question and i think more so
not not the art side but nfts in general and i think that was a great argument for and also you
know we're seeing so much art and i'm going to say that we're capital a with art and not just
digital art or nfts it's like now these barriers have broken down we shouldn't be separated or
segregated it is like one
you know chapter in art history and now it's entering museums almost like every month we've
seen toledo we've seen sasha and momo and the thing i've noticed and i'd love to hear your
thoughts before we go to taste and end the call um is you know it's funny how I feel like even during the downturn after 2023 and 2024,
we had so much skepticism from these institutions in 2020, 2021, 2022 even. And that's when we were
trying to validate, get these things in museums, do these donations, all these things. And then
right when everything kind of like came down, wasn't much interest there was a lot of
hype that died and and all the skeptic skeptical people said they were right and all the rolling
stone said poor board apes and whatnot i think it's that's kind of when i started noticing all
these institutions like doubling down now it's like okay now's our time to come into this shit
and and start promoting artists
like with the moma cards and the whitney um you know online exhibitions and even there's an nft
there and even rafiq's wall 2023 it's like how interesting was it when it was super overhyped
there was no interest but kind of when it kind of went went out of style that's when these things
were started to get noticed and and supported by
them did you notice that as well yeah that's a really good point i think um yeah it's a great
point i mean the museum of art light has uh des's uh exhibit there now toledo has that phenomenal
exhibit um infinite images um i think some people have pulled back.
It was nice to see Sasha Stiles at MoMA as well.
And what they've decided, I mean, I do give museums a little bit of credit here, right? There was a huge FOMO pump.
I think a lot of museums decided this is something they want to jump in.
There's money here.
Our attendance isn't great.
Let's jump into this.
And then we had that huge pullback. And I think a lot of museums isn't great. Let's jump into this. And then we had
that huge pullback. And I think a lot of museums said, and I'm not making this up. I've actually
been told this by multiple people. They said, you know, we want to take a more strategic and
thoughtful approach to this. We agree that it's art. We're just not quite sure how to deal with it,
with it being us. And so they've taken a more thoughtful approach. It's, again, it's slow.
It's turtle.
It's not the hair.
You know, it's basically, it's going to take a while.
But it is really good to have that validation.
I think it's, I thought the Toledo exhibit in particular was just, I didn't see the Museum
of Art and Light or the MoMA, Sasha Stiles, but the Toledo exhibit was phenomenal.
I thought it was very, very tastefully done.
And this is in an age where we lack good digital displays.
I mean, again, I think, you know,
just add that to the list of problems we have.
Display technology is really tough.
I really like white walls, by the way,
but there's not a ton of other ways to display digital art.
So, you know, I think that's a big barrier as well.
But I think it's inevitable.
Again, it's one of those things where like,
if you look, I mean, I was just reading yesterday
about sort of the art market in general,
the trad art market in general,
and it's a disaster.
I mean, it's not like, maybe it's not a disaster.
It is not going well.
One of the most famous...
How do you say it?
Gallerists closed down recently.
Which one?
Blum.
There's like Blum and Kasman and Venus.
Yeah, Venus closed.
And the art fairs are dying.
Everything.
Yeah, it's a real problem.
And so you ask yourself, well, what's happening?
Well, I mean, part of it... I don't know exactly what's happening. I don't know that they know exactly what's happening, but I do think part
of it is that the younger generation is sort of bored with that. You know, I don't, I don't,
I've been to, you know, Freeze, I've been to Armory, I've been to Art Basel, and you don't see a lot of
young people showing up to those shows. And then when you go to Toledo, it was all young people.
You know, the entire room was practically young people or MoMA.
It's a different cohort.
It's a different age group.
And I think over time, this becomes more interesting
than sort of that, let's go rub elbows at Art Basel.
And see the same art over and over again all over the world.
Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, there's one other thing I just want to add.
You know, I've talked to Adam Levine a bit about this after Toledo.
And, you know, it just brings a different kind of energy to the museum, right?
I mean, I remember when I was in Toledo, there was a family there,
an older elderly couple.
And I sat at the table with them and I said,
well, you know,
what did you think of all this? And this was a big benefactor to the museum. I'm not sure why
they decided to put me there since I'm sort of an idiot, but they sat me there and this is a huge
benefactor to the museum. And I said, what did you think of all this? And they loved it. I mean,
they loved it. Now, does that mean they're going to go out and put money behind this?
Probably not.
But it resonated.
And I think they really got into the whole energy of the scene because they just saw us fawning over this exhibit that was just so tastefully done.
So it's a little bit infectious, I think.
And I think that'll continue to grow. But again, I'm wrong a lot.
And I was wrong about continue to grow. But again, like I'm wrong a lot. And I was wrong
about this back in 2021. And my hope is that this happens on a faster timescale. But I don't feel
optimistic that we're all of a sudden going to scale higher in the next one or two years. It
feels like it's a, it does feel more slow and steady to me, but, but on the rise.
I don't think you're wrong. I think we're just
way too early, especially if we're thinking on a 10 to 20 year horizon. And maybe that's the
mindset. And to echo your point earlier, we just got to keep buying art, keep sharing art,
keep talking about the art. And I think doing that builds the stepping stones to where we think we can be and how we can contribute.
And also making art and challenging ourselves and creating with the technologies that we're gifted by these tech that we have here.
The blockchain, the network, AR, VR, AI.
I don't want to get into all that shit because that could take us another hour.
But I know you're sick and I don't want to take too much more time and I hope you
feel better. But let's talk about taste and you could sum it up into one word, a sentence or
however long you want. You know, how have you seen your taste evolve and what is the story you're
telling through your collection, if at all, or if you had to think about telling a story
through certain pieces or styles or that you keep being gravitating towards, what is the message
you're trying to convey through what you collect? So there's two answers to this. One is a story of
personal journey. You know, I've, again, I alluded to the fact that I'm using the right side of my brain more. And, you know, I see the world in a much different light than I used to.
So I'm highly, if nothing else comes with this, I mean, nothing.
Like I lose all my money and, you know, all this goes to zero, which I said again, I don't believe is going to happen.
And, you know, nothing else, nothing else.
It just all like sort of like goes nowhere.
The fact that I got, like, I just look at the world a little bit differently.
I could kind of see it through more of a creator's eyes than I can through the financial and sort of left side brain eyes that I used to see it through.
So that, to me, has been super rewarding.
Now, what am I trying to convey through my collection?
So, great question,
and I don't have an answer. There's no theme. So I buy across all genres. I bought AI,
bought a lot of photography, as you know, I bought glitch art and so on and so forth.
I do get the question once in a while, like, why did you spend all that money on
an X copy one of one? Or why did you spend all that money on X, Y, Z piece? And the answer to
that is very simple, which is I want everything in my collection to be affiliated with whoever
ends up being the best in this space. So I don't know who that's going to be. I mean, there's
certainly candidates right now, like Axon People and a host of others. So I don't know who that's going to be. I have, I mean, there's certainly candidates right now, like Axon Beeple and, you know, a host of others, but like, I just think
it's important to me, at least that like the artist who's currently selling for 0.1 ETH can
eventually be displayed next to a piece that's worth a ton of money. And it's sort of viewed as
a collection rather than the sum of its individual
pieces. I want the entire collection to be something really interesting to people 25, 30,
40, 50 years from now, maybe when I'm long gone and people say, wow, you know, Bats collected
X copy when he was coming up and paid a lot of money for it, but he also collected X, Y, and Z artists.
And those two, it's really interesting why he did that.
And maybe I just did it because I felt like it at the time, but I do want there to be some intention
behind how this work is displayed in the future
and thought about.
And I'm working on it, funny enough.
I've got a, I hope will be a pretty big announcement
coming up here in the next couple
weeks um with a major institution so i'm trying to i'm trying to do more i'm trying to advance
the collection um i'm trying to do more for the space at large and hopefully this ends up in a
cool spot um we'll see i don't always i don't always succeed i was going to say when I think of your collection
I think of the Peggy Guggenheim
and what she did for artists in that era
and what you're doing for artists
there's a little question I want to ask about
choosing artists early
and watching them develop
and seeing them
maybe even shape out to be
the big winners
how that makes you feel and also do you feel any responsibility and seeing them, you know, maybe even shape out to be the big winners, quote unquote,
how that makes you feel.
And also, do you feel any responsibility because your weight, your name carries so much weight,
so does 6529, and there's a lot of responsibility there when deciding. And, you know, some would say cabal, I would just say more so like focus on the future
and artists that are, like, catching your attention.
So it's like, do you feel any responsibility on the artists that you uplift, including myself?
Because you guys really supported me many times, and I feel grateful and supported.
And honestly, a byproduct of you guys just shouting me out and supporting me and bringing attention so as as an
example it's like do you feel that weight of responsibility on on who you support and and
how other people perceive that yeah and we can and we can end on that note so my view is um
again this is going to be controversial maybe people will not agree with it and that's fine. But I would rather support the space than support any individual creator. Because I actually think
that if you can put energy behind supporting the space, you will naturally lift up the creators
that you have supported in the past. So I do post art on the timeline and I do talk about
a lot of the art I bought,
but I don't talk about it that much because I would rather put time and energy into uplifting
the space, if that makes sense.
I just think it's a better use of energy to try and, you know, rising tide lift all boats
than any individual boat.
Now, that being said, I definitely have those moments where I'm like, yeah, duh. You know,
like, for example, I'll give you an example, like Manic. There's an artist out there named Manic,
and I've collected a few pieces by him over the years. And all of a sudden, he had a moment,
this was probably three months ago, he had a huge moment and sold like, something like 41 of ones,
it was something off the charts. And that surprised me, zero. Like I was not surprised at all because
I was like, this person is a really good artist and nobody's paying attention. Everybody's
congregating like, you know, the same sort of five to 10 artists. I'm like, if you just like,
I mean, part of the problem is discovery absolutely sucks around here. It's horrible.
But like, I am a little bit autistic in this sense, I suppose. I like to sit there in the morning with a cup of coffee and surf around the art feeds.
You know, even Foundation or Super Rare or Transient Labs has a great feed.
You know, people like that.
And I really just enjoy looking at stuff.
So, you know, to me, like, I own a lot of duh type of art, I feel like, where like, I'm just sort of waiting around waiting around and like when they get discovered, I'm like, yeah, I'm surprised nobody discovered this earlier.
But the problem is we just don't have enough of a collector base right now to take risks like that.
Right. So like it's easy to go out and buy one of the top 10.
It's easy. It's, you know, even if it's financially a stretch, it's easy to jump on that, you know, that bus.
The hard part is jumping on the bus
that's just filling up at the gas station and about to go.
That's the hard part.
And that's the part that, you know,
I really hope over the next year or two,
we get more people willing to do that
because I think there are,
it is outrageous to think
that there are only 10 artists in this space that are going to make it out of this period,
right? I mean, there's going to be multiples of that. And it'd be fun to watch people collect from
the folks that they thought were going to do it. So, and I'm seeing more and more of it. I mean,
I saw Benji today post something about an artist he loves. Raoul Paul does it a lot
about an artist he discovers or Blondie or Benny.
I think there's a lot of people doing it,
but I look forward to the day when we have 100 people doing it.
And that's the fun part.
Okay, final question.
Yeah.
How can we show up better for you,
for someone who gives so much more than they take
how how can we you know give back i don't have anything i have zero requests of anybody on this
call like i love it here i am a very happy person i'm very honored to be here i'm happy to be a part
of it you know hopefully this goes somewhere and you know someday down the road you know
we get this sort of like,
and Bat Soup Yum was a big collector back in that period.
And a lot of people are like, Bat Soup Yum, who's this clown?
That's my goal is to have a weird face and an audience
at a major art festival 50 years from now
where people are like, boy, this is a really weird dude,
but wow, that's a pretty good collection.
So no, I have no requests.
If I needed anything, I would certainly mention it on Twitter or something,
but I'm just happy to be here, like I said.
And we're so grateful for you, man, all the support.
And to what you just said, that's kind of like a duh for us.
Like, oh yeah, that guy's collection is probably super stellar,
so that makes absolute sense.
I can't wait to see this, hopefully, institutional show
that you said you're maybe potentially putting on
and wish you the best of luck.
And thanks again for your time, and God bless you.
I appreciate it, Justin.
I have a question for you, actually.
Yeah, sure.
What are you going to do for your birthday? I'm doing it. No, after this. Are you going to have the dinner? Are you
going to take it easy? What's your plan? I'm honestly just going to go to my studio and go
sit. I'm sitting in the park right now and I had my matcha and I'm shooting portraits and I'm with
my girlfriend and literally I do this every day. So I'm just going to do what I do every day and just hang out here and make art.
And, you know, maybe I like to go to the farmer's market. So I like to cook dinner.
So I'm going to, I'm going to do all those things today.
I love it. I love it. Well, happy birthday to you. And, um, I'm, I'm very appreciative for
you having me on here and, and, you, Moments of the Unknown is a brilliant collection.
I have one and I keep my eye on them.
So, yeah, I really enjoy it.
I'm really enjoying it.
And thanks again for having me.
Thank you for taking your time.
I know you're sick and I hope you feel better.
And also, thanks to everyone who spent their time listening with us.
Have a beautiful day and we'll see you all tomorrow.
Thanks, everyone.
Appreciate it. Thank you, Justin.
Okay, bye-bye.
Bye.
