Just a small town girl, living in a lonely world
He took the midnight train go from anywhere
Just a city bus, honing, raising soft controls
He took the midnight train go from anywhere
Just a city bus, honing, raising soft controls
A singer in a smokey room
A smell of wine and cheap perfume
For a smile they can share the night
It goes on and on and on and on
Whooping down the pool above the shadows
Living is the sound of the sun
Martin Popax is also here as a listener
Great, how is everyone doing?
Good stuff, man, good stuff
The markets are still green, guys
There's some great events coming on as well this week
We've got Ethereum Denver
And in Europe we've got NFT Paris
So anyone that's an NFT of that is in Paris
Make sure to drop the message if you want to catch up
So for today we're going to speak about monetization of music in Webtree
I mean Popax is doing some great things in that area
But there are many out there in Webtree that do as well
So really looking forward to hearing from everyone what the views are
And what kind of cool things they've seen in the space
I would encourage everyone to retweet the space
Share it with your friend, with your neighbor, with your little dog
But yeah, let's get started with a little round of introductions, guys
Flick, you want to kick off?
Hey, how's it going? Thanks so much for having me
Excited for a great space with you guys today
My name's Nick, I'm the community manager here at Flick Play
We're building the future of play through digital toys
You own one toy and it unlocks
It unlocks a wide variety of experiences
In the virtual world, the physical world around you
Through augmented reality, video games, physical raffles that are token gated
And also for our creators and musicians out there
As well as our IP partners, we have some token gated music features
That I'm excited to talk about today
And just in general, the way that musicians can really expand their brand in 2024
And explore the different opportunities out there in Web 3 as a supplement to Web 2
I really like that you mentioned AR there
You might touch on that later in the space
I managed to unmute myself, which is a good start for me
Thanks so much guys for inviting me to this space this evening
It's amazing to be surrounded by such
And there's my Siri going off
So I'm the founder of a super early stage Web 3 music startup called Momentify
It's a music platform that will be owned by artists
And it's built around the live music experience
We're so early in fact, we're just hiding out in a little corner of London in a private beta at the moment
But yeah, very excited to connect and talk about artist monetization in Web 3 tonight
If you feel lonely there in a little corner in London, I'm quite close to you
So hit me up and you can go
Layer 1X, I know what you do, man
Dallas, that is all about it
Yeah, thanks for having us
My name is Cody, I'm the Chief Experience Officer at Layer 1X
Just to give you a little bit of background about what Layer 1X is
We're a next generation Layer 1
That is a fully decentralized blockchain that is geared towards transforming the Web 3 experience
How we're doing this is basically through our flagship and proprietary technology
That focuses on bridge-less interoperability
Known as X-Tox, which solves the need for risky and costly bridges
Also, X-Tox not only allows you to move assets like any other kind of cross-chain technology
But it also allows you to move data and logic freely across EVM and non-EVM chains
Our whole ethos is build around a Web 3 where all the blockchains are united
And the value of data flows as effortlessly as currency does
Today we're going to be doing for data what Bitcoin did for payments
Again, thanks for having us, I'm really looking forward to today's discussion
Users don't really care about the underlying technology
As long as their user experience is great
They will appreciate what you guys are building there
Hey guys, my name is Alex, I'm the community
I'm BD Guy over at Footprint and p.ai
When we do a footprint, we have a ton of data
So if you guys like charts and dashboards and APIs
Well, we have a ton of them
So we got like 27 chains right now
Tons of NFT data, tons of gaming data, et cetera, et cetera
And we also got some infrastructure tools
Like some growth tools and reference data explorer, blah, blah, blah
So yeah, this is what we do
If you guys are into growing your protocol, hit me up
If you need some APIs, you need some data, let me know
And we just released their flagship tool
Our new tool, our P.ai, which is like a GPT
Geared towards investors and KOLs
So you can actually create your own prompts, add your own knowledge bases
And if you're really good with AI, you can make a really sweet tool
But yeah, I'm really excited to join this space
I think talking about music in Web3 is really important
So happy to be here and I'll pass the mic off
Yeah, AI data, we're all good in AI, man
If you see my prompts, they're the best
Hi, everybody, I'm Braxton, I'm VP of Growth at Revel.xyz
So we're a mobile app on iOS and Android
And we allow people to create personal trading cards
Using their photos or videos, art
And a lot of people are experimenting with our AI integration with stable diffusion
On which we built some proprietary technology as well
And we're trying to change the relationship between creators and their fans
And kind of evolve that in a world where there's much more ownership
And embrace of ownership of digital collectibles
So we have a lot of musicians on platform
And we think about them a lot, we talk about them a lot
And excited to be a part of the conversation today
Also a shout out to a couple of our community members, Dreams and Schemes
And Treasure, who I see in the audience
Good staff, good community I hear there
There's a lot of synergies there when it comes to the connection between the fans and the creators
Hey, what's going on, man?
Yeah, we're Berndt of Dao
So we are the world's most exclusive Dao
And the only way that you can join Berndt Dao is by competing in a fully on-chain game show
Where you compete to burn the other contestants
And trade your game, items in game
So yeah, let's fucking go
We have three contracts right now, you can win
Yeah, last time I checked, it's a denominator in ETH
But last time I checked, one of them, you're competing to win $3 million
The entry is $200 per entry, you can enter as many times as you want
The other one is I think around $200,000
And it's about $25 per entry
And you can also enter as many times as you want
And this is the really, really cool part
The cool part is that you can trade the entries during the game
So the way it works is the prize is held in the smart contract securely
It collateralizes all the NFTs
And at the end of every round, you're burning half the collection
So the value of the NFTs is doubling
So during the game, you could decide to sell off your NFTs
You know, like you buy five for $100
Your entry into the game is free
And you still have two entries to win, or three entries to win $200,000
So yeah, we're really, really excited
Sounds very familiar to me personally
Because I used to play poker, and this sounds like a poker tournament
You know what it's like? I play a lot of poker too
It's like a poker tournament
But imagine that you could buy in more than one seat
So you could buy more than one seat in the tournament
And then let's say halfway through the tournament
If you saw, I don't know, footprint
And you're like, God damn it, that motherfucker
He's always got my number
I'm probably not going to beat him in the final table
You could sell one of those seats to let's say Jack, right?
Not for what you paid for it, which is $1,000
But for the opportunity cost of entering the tournament later in the stage
Yeah, yeah, I get the concept
It's been thought about in the poker scene as well
To do these type of things
But the technology hasn't been there
That's what makes Web3 and blockchain so amazing, man
It's the first time that we're able to enable models like this
Like financial models, monetization mechanisms
It's all possible through blockchain
So yeah, really excited about it
How do we believe that Web3 is going to play part in this
Is Web3 really going to create way more opportunities
For musicians really to monetize the music
Or is it a little bit of, you know, a little bit of thought
Like maybe musicians already have opportunities enough to monetize music
Anyone has any views on that?
I'll jump in there and take first stab at it
I personally feel that the artist industry is a sleeping giant in crypto
I think that just like with social media
When you get a lot of people together that have the same passion and drive
As other people, they can make a lot of change
And we've seen this time and time again
When communities have rallied on social media and have made positive change
With that being said, that's where I feel like the artist industry is ripe for the taking
Because they're the ones that will be able to bring a lot of adoption to Web3
Especially as they look to ditch the various platforms that they're on
And to basically take back ownership of what they are creating
But also along with that goes the whole ability to not be siloed into one area as well
It goes back to that interoperability, usability experience type of thing
That you mentioned earlier that users don't really care
They just want their stuff and they want to be able to do it
So I think that it's a prime opportunity
But do you really think that musicians will ditch the platforms they're used to right now?
I think that's interesting
Yeah, and it's the chicken and the egg or it's the horse before the cart type of analogy
You do have to have adoption, you do have to have audience there
But if you look at some of these YouTube influencers and other social media KOL type people
They've kind of caught on that you need to build almost an essence your own platform
To basically start selling and making even more money
Because you've got these platforms that are taking up to 70% of your profit
That you are spending the time and effort to drive traffic to sell and things like that
So I think there will need to be an awakening
Do I feel like it's going to happen tomorrow?
No, but do I feel like it could happen over the next few years? Absolutely
Yeah, absolutely. I think with Facebook and Instagram it shows like if we look at their user data, it is in decline
So yeah, for sure. It's slowly is happening. Footprint
Yeah, it's a third one really hit on the head
So I don't really have too much to add on
But I wanted to kind of save opportunities with web 3 other than you know
Actually getting some money for the artists themselves
I think it's a great way to activate your community and kind of gamify and know your fans even better
You can start doing all sorts of on-chain things through say selective albums
You can release those on-chain or you can do like po-apps for fans that attend your shows over and over again
Which I think is super interesting and a great way to kind of give the fans a way to feel like they're interacting more closely with the artists
Which I think is sweet. We're seeing this a lot, like I said, with po-apps and stuff
And other than that, I think Larry Wood really hit it on the head
It's all about getting the power back to the artist
If you look at Kanye West, he's always complaining about how much she was getting per million streams
I think Snoop Dogg was also complaining about Spotify about how much they make per million streams and it's like pennies
So it's really interesting to see the money go back into the artist's pocket through web 3 adoption
Yeah, I got a slightly different take on this of how a single works
So I think it's going to be using the communities to kind of gamify Spotify, gamify Apple and kind of hit them where it hurts
For instance, if you're interested in songs into, say, Fortnite, it's got like 199 million users a day or whatever it is
And then that song is owned collectively by a decentralized record label and community with help and push it
Then you'll be able to push the figures up enough to start gaining enough money for the artist for it to kind of be serious
I think the power is kind of there with the artist, there just isn't another option
But I think before they move, I grew up from 150 record deals and billions of streams
To move the stuff from Spotify, even though you're getting screwed over, it's a kind of big risk
Because that's the way the whole music infrastructure is
So until kind of decentralized labels pop up that are owned by communities who are kind of driving plays
Whether it's via gamification or via their social reach
So kind of all that artists on the platform, I think that's when we're going to kind of really see a change in
Bernadale, my man, you've got your hand up
No worries, I was going to say that I think, so we're thinking about it maybe a little bit differently
Although someone on the same lines
So part of what we want to do as the world's most exclusive DAO is by design, we are building a DAO that does not scale
And the idea is that very few people can join a year
So, you know, at the end of year one, maybe 50 people can join total
It would take us like a hundred years to get to the size of the current board API club holders
Like not including Newtons or anyone else
But why are we doing that, right? We're doing that because we want to provide experiences that don't scale
Like very bespoke benefits
Part of that, I think, and part of the way we're thinking about that is like, how can you associate, you know, music
And sort of like the vibe of an event with the event itself
And so like one of the things that we're really interested in is the idea of sort of attaching music to, I guess you could say like kind of a pull-up of sorts
But maybe something a little bit more rich
But that kind of idea, right? Like this idea that, you know, you might go to a dinner or something
And I don't know about other people, but I've always been fascinated by this idea that you can kind of have like a little bit of a soundtrack in your own head sometimes
Like you kind of want to visualize certain, especially momentous occasions as having somewhat of a kind of almost a cinematic soundtrack-like feel
And I think the idea of actually associating music, actually associating soundtracks with your memories
And delivering those memories to people, you know, as commemorative NFTs of events or, you know, particularly momentous occasions or whatever it is, experiences
I actually think that that's really interesting
I haven't heard a lot of people talking about that because I think it mostly comes from the perspective of the artist
But I think there's an entire other opportunity there to think about kind of layering that technology onto third-party experiences
Ray, Jack, did you want to add something?
Yeah, I'd love to, Bernie Dowell, I'd love to talk to you more about that
That's kind of totally my philosophy as well
These super personal moments that you can share with artists as a fan and can kind of really co-create a shared memory of the experience
And I think in like music and the cultural phenomenon that is music, there's nothing that really even gets close to touching that
So yeah, I'd love to catch up with you
Yeah, so I guess my take on it is like this isn't a new problem
It's always been super hard for artists to monetize their fan base
We see like a few really successful individuals and then a real long tale of normies who just don't ever see the kind of same level of success
And now it's kind of crazier than ever
You see artists with hundreds of thousands of monthly listeners on Spotify and you see them on Twitter and they're still struggling to make ends meet
And just streaming fees have got so low, I think somebody quoted like 70% of revenue going to the artist
But once you divide that by the rights holders, it can be even lower than that
So it's genuinely not a exaggeration to say that 99% of artists can't monetize their fan base
There's something like 11 million listed artists on Spotify
Obviously some of those are hobbyists, but I think only 57,000 made more than 10K last year
So this is like a real problem
And it's crazy that there's all these creative people
And I think that the real crux of the problem is that artists don't know who their fans are
Like Live Nation, Ticketmaster, the promoters know who their real fans are
They don't own their relationship with their fans anymore
Like the social media platforms do and it's hard to connect with them
And then you've got Spotify and the digital streaming platforms who are making the cash out of their product
So we've ended up in a situation where it's just a completely unfair series of economic incentives
That have created this horrible situation for them
So I think the interesting thing about Web3 is it offers this potential paradigm shift
Where fans and artists can connect directly
And I think in that, whatever solution it is or whatever product that we're all here to talk about
That's the really exciting thing, this direct connection
These direct monetizable connections are the things that offer this kind of big shift in opportunity
But the reality of that is it's still really hard
It's just as hard in Web3 as it has been in Web2
So I think that somebody suggested earlier, can you do these things in parallel?
And I think that's the way that it's going to have to happen
This slow weaning off these Web2 products
And this shift over into this new guard of products hopefully that we're all here to talk about
Yeah, I think it's not just the artists that need to start using these alternative products
As an artist or a magician, you're obviously going to lean towards the products that your fans are using
So maybe this is a really good one to dig into next
How do we get the fans to appreciate what's there in Web3 and start using it?
I think a lot of people talk about, you know, first of all, a couple things
I know that a lot of the Web3 musicians over at IRL Alpha in Venice Beach
They have some gripes with the current Web3 music ecosystem
Just in the terms of the platforms that are available
Much to Jack's point that he just made
Where they still don't really know who their audience is
And they're still reliant on a platform to get their music out there to get sales
And based on some of the Web3 music platforms that exist right now
They want as many transactions as possible
They want as many hits as possible
And so they incentivize an artist to create, you know, to list their art for cheap prices
Dollar mints, stuff like that
And one thing that an artist, Patrick Amidon says is
Well, if you list your art and it's free, then who knows the value of your art
If you're listing your art for a dollar, well, you just set that your art is now worth a dollar
And so that's not really helping anyone if their art is truly worth more than a dollar
Because they're just trying to get the numbers up
Because the platform itself is trying to get the numbers up
As of right now, it's really hard to access Web3 music
And listen to it as I would to Spotify or Apple Music
And if it's easy, it's just not well known that it's easy, right?
I think that as of right now for Web3 artists
The key is less about getting people to buy their art
And go to the platform where they can buy their art
But more, okay, now that you own this art
Now that you have this art, this music
What can you do with it, right?
So one thing that we've been working on
We launched Baby Shark, officially licensed IP digital toys
And, you know, it's got over 13 billion views on YouTube
The most viewed video on YouTube because it's an earworm, right?
Little kids love it, their parents hate it
Because they listen to it 20 times a day, right?
But it's all about the audio and that
And so once people bought the Baby Shark digital toys in our app
They're able to make videos with it TikTok style and augmented reality
And the sound that they can put onto it, right?
Which is the whole catch for Baby Shark is the audio
You cannot use that in our app
And our IP partners will not allow you to, you know, post it
Unless you own the actual digital toy itself
And we do that with other artists too in our community, right?
The nobody, he puts stuff out on sound
He puts stuff out on Pianity
But he's got his own NFT avatar that he created in the sandbox, right?
So we uploaded that to FlickPlay
And now whenever he has music, it's like
Alright, cool, we're gonna upload this to our sound library
Do you want it where they have to own this certain NFT
And now they can use this sound and which NFT of that are you talking about
And so that way he can, you know, set it for free, right?
Get more people, get more eyes on it or more ears listening to it
Or at the same time, he can really token gated
Where it's like, okay, now do you want to create with it and take it a step further
Well, we have that ability as well
So I think that for artists in Web3 at the moment, you know
Utilize your Web2 platforms
Utilize your TikTok, utilize your YouTube Shorts
Utilize your Spotify and Apple Music to get as many people listening to it as possible
And then as far as monetizing, as far as really understanding who your audience is
I think that's when you go to Web3 and then you, you know
Put up your art for more than just a dollar
Like you're not getting, playing the numbers game here
Where people are like putting their money where their mouth is
Like I think that you should be, you should be getting your fans in the Web2 space
And then having them really show themselves as super fans in the Web3 space
It's really about the conversion game at the moment
How do we convert them from the existing Web2 platforms into the great experiences in Web3
So I'll go to Matt next and then Cam, you can jump in
I see you just join the speaker
And after that we go to Luke, he joined as well
Yeah, so, so like again, like kind of what we've looked at with PopEx
Is trying to create a platform that, you know
Artists benefit from the following of the platform as well
So by doing, you know, by doing a deal with Live Nation
And kind of like putting our activations in fields with like 100,000 plus fans
We then, you know, we can then insert like hundreds of extra places
Artists can kind of showcase their, showcase their work
And actually create like revenue as well from kind of sponsors
And like, you know, it's an easy sell
And, you know, we rolled it out at Wembley Arena
And we did it at Wembley Stadium as well with Motley Crue
And, you know, sort of promoting
You're just saying like you're utilizing advertising spaces that didn't exist before
And you're going to do some more revenue
And then, you know, this kind of gets passed on then to the artists as well
So they get a new way of engaging
And like for the fans, obviously this is enhancing their experience
But I think the key of it is instead of kind of going to an artist
And saying, hey, you come onto our platform and bring your fans
And then we'll take a cut and you try and sell this new kind of
You know, your art to this kind of new audience
I think it's about building from the ground that with the community
And offering the artists something
You know, the reason why Myspace grew is because you knew if you went on Myspace
And you hammered it off, you could grow your fanbase
Like, you know, me and Luke did it
Like, you know, we had like seven million followers on Myspace
And Myspace was great because they didn't cap you
They didn't stop you reaching your fans
And like we'd sell up shows quite easily off the back of that
And then kind of when it moved to Facebook, that's when the kind of
I think that's the hardest thing that's come in for artists
The thing with Spotify, like I know it pays really low
But like we've had record deals on both sides
Record deals were kind of formed in like the 1930s
And the model hasn't really changed since
And artists have always been getting kind of screwed by that
So like, yeah, to me, it's all about kind of offering the artists
Something that enhances what they've got already
As well as trying to just kind of feed off their fanbase and nearly whales
And the great thing about Web3 and the reason why we got into it
The reason why, you know, like PopX started is like
We wanted to get back to that kind of a chance to be able to reach people
Like, you know, I think what the PoApp ideas that you're saying, yeah, great
I think we can start creating real life social footprints of artists that go to gigs
And then like artists and promoters will be able to use that data
And it'll be open to everyone
So you can like kind of directly hit the fans that you want to hit
And for us, that's more of the way, you know, it should be going
And, you know, the proof's in the pudding of Live Nation
Kind of jumping on board with it
Like, they don't know, you know, they don't know who the fans like in the same way anymore
Because Live Nation's data is being gated by like Facebook
And they can't reach the massive audiences that they used to
So this isn't just like a problem for the artists
This is like the artists, the promoters, the labels
And basically the whole music industry ecosystem
Which companies like Spotify and Facebook have kind of come in and kind of hijacked
Well, all in the hands of Mark and the guy from Spotify
Cam, going to you, you just joined the speaker
Thanks for, well, first off, sorry I'm late
I was on another call about distribution that kind of ran over
Because I'm in the middle of switching distributors
For reasons that, you know, kind of align with a lot of what was being said
And it's really refreshing to hear this type of speech from platforms that are building for artists
Because I got a tweet just the other day where I was like, yeah
We don't really need more places to upload our music at all
Especially in Web3, it's kind of just been this lexicon of platforms building their entire company
And then going to raise like $20 million off of our audiences
And Flick Play, I think it was, said something earlier about really leveraging your socials
And all of these things that you already have
And people are already on these places
So we're building our audiences there, and he was like, yeah, then take it to Web3
The only thing that I wanted to add to that, just for any artist that's listening and like being super literal
And didn't fill in the blanks for themselves is like
That intermediate point is bringing those people into a thing that you own
Like I've had the same email address ish for like 20 years now
So I'm pretty confident in email, like not going anywhere
So you got to have them in something that you own
And that makes it even more valuable when you go to these different Web3 platforms
Because like, as opposed to, you know, I'll just say sound, whatever
Like if sound came to me and said, hey, we want you to be on our platform, blah, blah, blah, blah
I now can approach this conversation similarly to how I would approach a distribution deal
Or any type of record deal, I can say, well, I can already reach my audience and I can send them to my website
So why do I need to come to your platform and what is it doing that I can't already do?
And then as an artist, you have to like, just because you can't already do it does not automatically make it a
Yes, I should partnership with this platform
Like you got to look at the terms because it might be a thing that like you're not doing yet
But you can actually do like, for example, myself, I dabble in Blender and like augmented reality and VR and all of these things already as an artist
So like my type of conversation with somebody like Flip Play will be different than an artist who has no idea that Blender even exists
Like I would be looking for more of collaborative opportunities and like, hey, now we can put our heads together
And have like an even more in-depth conversation and it's more of like a case study than me being a customer, if you will
Yeah, Cam comes right on it there, so I'll jump in, but like, yeah, exactly what you just said Cam is like
Like why we've kind of gone at this the way we have with PopX
Like, you know, there's no point as kind of offering a service to you that you can do yourself or be you've already got your fan base
But, you know, if we can offer a collaboration to say, look, we're going to put you in a field of 50,000, 100,000 people
And you can showcase your work and we can kind of share the revenue that way
Then all of a sudden that, you know, that's why the top 30 bands of download have all jumped on board with us
And are pushing out to like nearly 600 million fans in the summer because, you know, they know that collectively that's a strong movement
And it's about kind of bringing that movement together is like, you know, what is going to make a difference
I think as well that the technologies that you can offer in Webtree as a platform, like you said Cam, like, you know, some artists that are not familiar with Blender
Might not know that maybe some of these things they can do themselves
But having that opportunity to be exposed to these new technologies, I think is good, right
So maybe let's dive into some of those technologies which we can leverage with Webtree and outside Webtree for music
Luke, you're, I mean, you're a design expert, so you know very well, I would say
Yeah, because I'm in that very small demographic of the cross between in the band diagram of Blender users and artists
But yeah, I mean, hi everyone, it's been really interesting so far
I mean, with anything, there's always going to be no matter what kind of technology or what even industry
There's always going to be the kind of people who are kind of the pioneers to kind of try the latest thing as soon as it comes out
And then these are the kind of people who are a bit slow to take that up
You know, from a guitar player's point of view, there was a lot of resistance to the kind of digital lamps for a long time
And you know, you couldn't use you had to use two bands. That was it. And then there was a kind of tipping point where
You know, people who had a lot of credibility touring artists, people who you would not expect to be using those kind of things
Started using them and then it brought the rest of the community with them
I think that's going to kind of be where this is going to head as well
You know, it's like there's something that Jack said earlier about the kind of it's the personal moves between fans and artists
And most if not all artists can trace back to that exact moment where they wanted to become an artist
And it's always going to be that personal thing, you know
Like this is a few people who, you know, back to the future
Like myself was like, okay, I wasn't there with Michael J. Fox, but I was like seeing it like I want to do that
I can trace my entire life story from that point. I'm sure most artists can't
So anybody who kind of approaches artists or wants to work with artists
I think they're approaching a kind of potential partnership where the artist needs to feel that you understand that
And you understand how important that relationship is with that fan
Because, you know, as much as you want to create those kind of super fans in Web3
You just want to create super fans
There's kind of people who will say the next day after the show
I went and saw these guys and they were unbelievable
You got to check them out
And that's kind of like ubiquitous in music
And the word community is used in music a lot
So I think however it comes about
I think there's a lot of kind of usability issues and kind of experience issues
That need to be kind of dealt with not just in the music kind of side of things, but in general
But I think as long as everybody within that kind of community
Artists, fans, promoters, labels
Because, you know, labels aren't necessarily the bad guys
As long as there's a kind of way that enhances the experience for every stakeholder in music
That's when you'll really see people get behind it and kind of start shouting about it, I think
Cool. Gam, would you want to add something?
I just want to touch on just super fans
Luke, not even directing this at you
I'm just more broadly speaking on
I hear the term super fan from somebody in Web 3 music
And it's become as much of a buzzword as community
And I think that not enough education is given to artists about what that even is
Because I'm not guessing the age range of our speakers here
And so I actually remember a time when super fandom
For one, we didn't have to call it super fandom
Because being a fan just meant being a fan
The things that we attribute to super fans nowadays
Ah, they're the person that buys your merch
They're the people that go to shows
They're the people that join clubs and stuff like that
I used to just be what a fan was
And I think that what we have to do with artist education
That is going to help people actually grow their audience
And find out how to engage with them
Is being more and more particular around what defines these different things
Because now we only have to call somebody a super fan
Because regular fandom is very passive
I could be a fan of somebody
And only listen to their music
Yeah, I think we were losing you a bit there
I'm 35, so I kind of remember that time as well
When I talk about the kind of fandom that's super fan
I'm thinking of when we had these
I think it was like these four or five kids essentially in Brazil
Shouting to everybody they could
And kind of doing stuff about our band
Which for us, coming from South Wales and stuff
It was just mind-blowing that people loved our stuff
That much that they just wanted to get as many people involved as possible
And it's not to say that we appreciate them more than anybody else
Anyone who's ever listened to a song or bought a t-shirt
Or gone to a show or anything
It's just really humbling for me personally
I know for the rest of the guys as well
It's those kind of evangelist kind of people
They're the ones who always build an artist fan base organically
Because it's that weird of a mouth thing
Just to jump in, I think what Cam touched on
Is something we've seen a lot of
People in Web 3 will approach artists
And it'll be the music industry's broken
Artists don't make any money
It isn't that bleak for artists that are doing well and doing stuff
And I think this thing of...
I know with the superfans
It's not just about building these superfans
And throwing these buzzwords at artists
It's about offering artists something that is tangible
For them to kind of engage with
Yeah, we can hear you now, Cam
You were breaking up a little bit
But we can hear you now clearly soon
I walked to the other side of the room
So it's probably a dead spot over there
My point was more so that
A lot more artists, especially this day and age
Especially younger artists that didn't even grow up in an era where
Fandom meant the same thing
And translated to the same activities
They don't know how to even generate
And engage with fans, period
They don't know how to separate
And define the fact that a listener on Spotify
Is different than a fan of you
And that creates this convoluted nature
In which they're throwing stuff at the wall
Trying things that might not work
For every bracket of their audience
So how you engage with listeners
Versus listeners that are active
Than, you know, it's also completely different
Than how you engage with a fan
Yeah, Cam, I think it's very good
You were breaking up a little bit there
But yeah, very, very, very good points
On how to engage with different segments of fans
And maybe this is a great point for Footprint to touch on
Because how can we use on-chain data maybe
To really map out who are maybe super fans of our products?
Oh, man, this is really interesting
Because I really think we can start
Really taking control of the data
Once we start taking control of tickets
And tracking people on-chain
Building up a profile of your fan
Which is kind of really easy to do
Once you start putting all this sort of data on-chain, right?
You can build, you can even
You see what kind of events that they've put on
You can even link merch that they've bought
And what I think was even cooler
Is how you can reward your super fans
Once you get this data as an artist
I think getting the data of your fans
Just makes it so much more personable
Experience for the artist
Actually just seeing what the community is about
I think it's super, super exciting
And I think the best way to get this data
Is to just start with data from tickets
Bringing some on-chain to getting services
I think is a good way to start with bringing this data
Yeah, I actually see the mic
In the future, we might have two different types of super fans
We might have the maybe legacy type of super fans
That are enjoying the shows and listening to the music
Maybe passively, maybe more actively
And then we might have the super fans
That actually are showing a lot of transactional data
Collectors of digital, digital collectibles
Or maybe some that are actually just speculating
Around any kind of assets
That are related to some type of project
And these people might not always voice that they're super fans
Because normally when I think about a super fan
It's like, okay, this person is an advocate
He's sharing what I'm sharing
You know, he's engaging with the content
But that's not necessarily the case for everyone
No, I think with that as well
It's like, you know, we had fans that we met years later
And then they tell us that they've been to like 30 of our shows
And they haven't really engaged that in posts about us
But, you know, I think for a super fan for me
That's what that would be, you know
I think gathering kind of data
And making it available for everyone
Is kind of key to kind of supercharging any kind of fan base
Like, you know, we're looking into geolocated data
So when you're at a festival
You can actually report back
Which artists people actually went to look at
And from like a promoter point of view
You think that, like, if they put on a rock festival
They'll put like ACDC, Iron Maiden, you know, Foo Fighters
And the festival will sell out
And then you've got these hundreds of acts underneath
And then trying to kind of define the ones
That people are actually going to see who have real life value
To the ones that are just kind of hyped through
You know, the right management company
And the right label is like really difficult
But then, you know, that's what I think this...
You know, by kind of getting like geolocated
And perhaps drop to actual fans that are going to see different acts
It's going to be really interesting for promoters when putting festivals on
Yeah, just because of that kind of like data set
It'll be a lot more transparent than it ever has been before
And I think as well, you know, with the more kind of solutions
We will have for interoperability
That's going to be very interesting
Now, as a fan or an artist
You can maybe have different types of activations
On different types of chains
But still, you might have a good overview of the data
I would love to go to Ravel
Talk a little bit about the personal trading cards
And how musicians are using them
I'm quite interested to hear
I mean, some artists, including musicians, will share other aspects of their lives
That folks wouldn't necessarily have a chance to see
If they're primarily interacting with their work
On something like Spotify or if they're going to concerts
Or following them on other social media
So I think that's one thing
There are others who will share their music in maybe a different way
So I think it's uncommon, perhaps, to share a full song on our platform
But to create a card with a short video of maybe a verse or even just a phrase
And playing a little bit is something that we have seen some folks do
Another thing I'm really interested in
And I think that we are interested in, actually
And that Web3 potentially unlocks for musicians and other types of creators
Is just getting a really clear sense of who your biggest fans are
Because they're putting their money and their time where their mouth is
And kind of collecting you a little bit more aggressively
And I think that's true across NFTs
We're a little bit more focused on the creator space than some other folks in blockchain
So I think we're acutely aware of it
But we've seen some experimentation here
And I would love to see more
It's given that you might have more awareness of who your biggest fans are
And they're sort of aggressively demonstrating that through their collecting activity
What kind of token-gated perks can you unlock for them?
Is there a backstage pass for your top 10 collectors?
I think there's been, in the NFT space, lots of examples of that
And that's something that we're trying to unlock further
So there's some question around what we productize
And what maybe takes place off-platform, of course
But that's what makes this space exciting
Jen, I see that you're added to speaker
That's really interesting
Hey everybody, it's your girl, Miss Jen Marie
Yes, I was on a call earlier
Same thing, same old, same old
Yeah, yeah, I can hear you
But Matt, could you hear Jen Marie as well?
Yeah, no, so I'm a singer-songwriter
I recently moved my music on chain
And it has been a wonderful experiment
To figure out how to grow fan bases
And what works for Web 2 might not work for Web 3
And what works for Web 3 might not always work for Web 2
So I enjoy having the conversation surrounding
How to make it work as an artist in this space
Because automatically, artists want to get compensated properly for their work
And there are certain tools that a lot of us are just trial and error
But I do really enjoy the conversation
I look forward to reaching out with a couple of you all offline
To see how we can collaborate
Because I do believe one of the things that I enjoy about this space, Web 3 particularly
Is that the experimentation and the collaboration are key for mass adoption
And I enjoy listening to people and what they're building and seeing
How we can collaborate as opposed to an artist just joining a platform
Because there are so many platforms
To where me as an artist, I'm looking at what's the best collaboration for my fans and I
As we continue this journey
But yeah, I love the conversation and I'm so happy to be here
And what you said then is, as an artist, what is that platform giving you?
Hey Jen, did you catch that?
What was the question again?
Yeah, the question was directed to you
What as an artist does a platform offer you?
Yeah, I was kind of highlighting the thing as an artist
You're not just going to put your stuff on loads and loads of platforms
That platform needs to offer you something that's extra
To what you've been getting from other places
And yeah, it's an interesting point
If you as an artist would go to multiple platforms
Would that be become a way to grow your user base as well
Or your fan base basically
Yeah, providing that each platform has kind of individual users
But I guess there's a lot of crossover
If we take social media as an example
It's imperative that artists and even businesses go to where the communities are engaging with one another
And so with that being in mind, I mean there should be no difference in the web3 space as well
We've spoken with quite a few different recording studios, artists, across the music industry
But also, you know, movie, TV, for broadcasting rights, along with gaming and things like that
And so one thing that we're kind of focused on over at Layer1X is devising a way to answer like what Jen Marie was talking about with royalties
You know, that is a major problem, especially with a lot of them
As they hop across different chains and things like that
They can lose those royalties really, really quick
And with our interoperability, you know, those royalties will go no matter where you go
And as long as you, for an example, one of the things that we can do as well is if people mint on our blockchain
They could basically take and put it into a many different array of NFT marketplaces on a lot of different chains
While maintaining control over it through our NFT marketplace
Which allows them to still, like for gaming, for an example, they can still use that NFT in the game while they're still trying to sell it across three different NFT and three different blockchains
So I think that, you know, when you look at the building the brand ambassador or the superfans, as you guys are calling them
There is a psychological formula for doing that
And not only is it support, but it's also being able to provide a platform or utility that is super simple to digest
Super simple for them to feel like they can master it
And which I've always thought it would be a great idea for any wallet, trust wallet, MetaMask, you know, Ravi
One of these kind of wallets to pick up the capabilities of being able to play music as a form of their wallet
Because many of them have a mobile app where some of these platforms may not
I was more thinking of using it while I was aping in the next meme coin on MetaMask
But yeah, I think that could be quite cool
Berndau and Flikbe, if you had your hand raised, I'm not sure if you still wanted to say something
This is just kind of a general comment on sort of user acquisition and growth
So this is not, you know, I can't credit this to myself
This comes from an investor friend of mine who I've known for a long time who's at a tier one firm
And he used to tell me a lot that, you know, kind of one of the mistakes that a lot of
Especially first time founders would make is that they would think about, you know, mass adoption
They would focus on, you know, what do we think 90% of the users want and try to build towards that
And that that's actually kind of the wrong approach
His view, which I tend to agree with, was that you really want to focus on identifying
The 3% of like rabid, rabid fucking crawl over glass for you users, right?
The people that are right or die
Because those are the people that are going to go out and amplify your message
And, you know, kind of bring more people towards your product or towards your brand
Or whatever it is you're trying to do
And his view, and again, I tend to agree with this, was that when you identify those people
What you should really be focused on is optimizing towards them, right?
You know, making them feel like you're really kind of catering to them and focusing on understanding
Like why this 3% of people feel the way they do
And then, again, like optimizing towards that
And using that optimization to try to kind of expand that circle slowly, right?
So that, you know, you move from this product that's just extremely, extremely exciting
To this, you know, sort of very, very niche group
And then you're kind of like building out in rings, I guess you could say, from that
As opposed to taking the opposite approach
I just always thought that it was kind of a really interesting thing and maybe applicable here
You know, when we signed the Live Nation deal
It was always, you know, we wanted to do like a kind of rock festival
Because we know that's like a...
One is the community that they collect things, they buy a lot of merch
And even though it's the biggest rock festival in the UK we're doing
It's still like kind of a small group of people on kind of a scale of like all the events
You know, Live Nation put on across the world
But, you know, if you can kind of prove that test case there
And I make it exciting enough for the fans, you know, at one event
And there's enough noise made around that
I think that's when you can kind of push out to mass scale
Other than, you know, just trying to reach out to everyone on the planet
And try and get every artist in and everyone to kind of use your platform
Because then, you know, that's kind of an impossible task
Flick Play, did you want to add something earlier?
Yeah, I mean, I just... I think it's interesting
I was thinking about this one artist that I've seen a bit on YouTube Shorts
They do a great job marketing, getting their face out there, you know
Wearing the right, you know, clothing, cutting the right clips
To, you know, keep that short attention span
That we've grown to have today
And it just makes me think that the Web 3 Musician's mission is similar to the Web 2
In the beginning stages, right?
Like, you just got to get people to know who you are, remember who you are
Of course, as you perfect your craft, you'll create good music that people will listen to
But, you know, what will make them turn you on in the first place, right?
So that comes down to marketing, running your social media the right way
Understanding and analyzing, you know, Shorts and short form content
And then getting them to the next step of listening to your music
And then where Web 3 comes in is, you know, when the goal before was get signed
The Web 3 goal is now, like, okay, now organically grow your community of fans
Rather than, like, you know, quote unquote, like, signing your soul away
Or giving up your masters or, you know, your rights in exchange for getting in front of more people
Or getting that audience and stuff
So it's really just like taking things into your own hands at that next level
Where before you were just trying to get the attention of that, you know, group
That would maybe take it out of your hands from there
And you can just focus on your music and your performance there
But those are just my thoughts
Yeah, I think, like, you know, is it not, like, a mix of both, though?
Because, like, you know, I don't, like, I think there's a lot of, like, talk
Like, with, like, kind of record labels
Like, bad talk, bad record labels
And, you know, when you're signed to a label, it doesn't mean you kind of stop working as such
You know, you've still got to kind of keep hustling and pushing in front of the right content out
And doing the right thing
And, like, you know, there's a very small amount of artists who actually kind of hand over
And I don't really think that's happened probably much in, like, the last, you know, last ten years
Especially, like, and I just think, like, this kind of phrase
Do you think artists now are thinking, I'm going to be a web3 artist?
Or, like, for me, when we did it, we just wanted, you know, we wanted people to listen to our art
Like, we didn't, you know, everything else was just a bit of a side dish of how it went out
Even, you know, even when we signed some major labels
Or when we were independent, kind of, you know, hand-to-hand flyers at festivals
And, you know, it's, like, it was no different
It's always been about kind of just projecting your art and having people listen to it
And I think, like, web3 is just kind of another tool for the artist
Other than thinking, oh, now I need to be a web3 artist
Because I think there's a bit of pressure on
So, like, I've seen some young artists, like, have approached, like, kind of us at one of the labels A&R for
And they're like, oh, you know, I'm a web3 artist
Or I'm this kind of artist
And it's like, you know, just do your thing
You know, do your thing and let people enjoy your music and enjoy what you do
Because, you know, that's the real reason why you do it
It's not, you know, and I do think there's a danger as well
Of, like, kind of pushing onto these artists
Like, you know, yeah, we know loads about finance
And we can solve this problem, this problem, that problem
And it's like, yeah, but to me, to Luke, like, you know, we didn't care about the money
We cared that we had a big tour bus
We cared that there was 80,000 people there
And, you know, we got up to mischief and had a lot of fun
Like, I never did we ask about where the money was coming from
And it was no different before Spotify
Like, you know, the label still took all the money
You know, I've always got screwed in that way
And I remember we got called into the office early by Universal
And they said, oh, we got great news, guys
Your album's been downloaded 1.5 million times
On this new site called Napster
And we're gonna, you know, we're gonna sort it out for you
And obviously, like, we thought we were gonna get some money
But, you know, we were just out of the way, you know, out of the way of what's going on
And, yeah, that way is, like, 100% kind of like a green way of saying
Being like, yes, it's about being on it, it's about doing it
But it's always been like that
And, you know, it's always the top percent of artists that are gonna be successful
It's like kind of going into, like, sports industry and saying
Oh, football's got a problem because not everyone's getting paid the same wage as Ronaldo
And it's like, yeah, that's because not everyone can play fucking football like Ronaldo, you know
And that's like, yeah, it's the same in music
And, like, yeah, that's kind of my, yeah, my take on that
Yeah, absolutely, it's like, do you want to be as good as Ronaldo
And hire an agent to deal with all of your, like, marketing and your branding and, like, your fans
Or do you want to be, like, Zlatan, like, you know, handle your own marketing
But it's like, he's not as good as Ronaldo, you know, so I definitely think it's, it depends on
I take even of those jobs, I think, you know, be Ronaldo
Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely
And I think it just comes down to what the artist wants, you know, like, how much do they want to be in the driver's seat
Like, versus how much do they want people who are already experts and already know what's, like, going on
And how to get you that tour bus, how to get you into those stadiums
You know, at a price of, like, hey, you might not be in the driver's seat anymore
I think that that's just the trade-off that you want to decide
Yeah, I think with that, though, is, like, ultimately, like, and, you know, I run, like, two of the, like, kind of biggest metal rock studios
Like, in the UK at one time, and there's a trend of artists that kind of make it and do it
And it's rooted from passion, and it's rooted, and, like, they're never kind of thinking, oh, I just need to get this big so I can pass it off
They never want to let go of the reins, you know
And, like, you know, labels we sign do, like, it's really hard to kind of hand over, you know, hand over, like, your fan base or kind of access to yourself
And that's why, kind of, website companies are going to have a lot of problem with onboarding as well
Because, you know, like, you've got to understand that, like, these fan bases have been grown over, like, 10, 12 years
And they've been grown from playing in, like, shitty clubs to three, four people up to playing, yes, you know, you can get the stadiums, you can play, you know, salad venues across Europe
You can do that, but, like, unless it comes from a place of passion, like, it won't happen
And, like, you know, it's just that I've never met a really successful artist who's just kind of gone, well, I'm looking for a bit of tech that can fast forward my career
And, like, you know, it doesn't work like that, and I think, like, that's got to be respected as well
And, yeah, it goes back to, like, what we're looking at with PopEx
Like, we started as a marketplace, and we've got loads of connections with artists, and, yeah, it was easy to kind of bring on an artist
Like, you know, release an NFT collection, offer some utility, and, yes, their fans would buy it
But we wasn't really kind of doing anything special for the music industry, we're just, like, essentially just, like, selling stuff to their fans
And, you know, like, kind of where we're at now is, you know, let's make, you know, let's get a community, let's get a platform
And let's give these artists opportunities to hit more people and actually enhance the experience of what they're doing
And use us as part of their journey, not, like, the solution to their whole journey
Yeah, that's a really nice message to wrap it up with for the space
I want to thank all the speakers and all the listeners that have listened to today
It was a really interesting space where we really kind of dive deep into what it means
Monetization and music and Web3
And I definitely concluded that it's not just about Web3
It's Web3 is just an innovation that really can help artists and fans to really experience music in a really better way
So thanks everyone, and definitely check in next week, we will be back every week
At the same time on Thursday