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Multi-Chain Mondays: Ordinals
Recorded: Nov. 27, 2023 Duration: 1:25:19Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you for listening.
Can you hear me? All right, throw up a quick emoji, thumbs up, if you can hear me just fine.
I think, uh, DFINITY account, I'm not sure if you can mute that music.
Uh, we're trying to get to the crescendo and then we'll, we'll cut off the music.
We're trying out different music, see what works for this Monday. Uh, and I think we got the, uh, which one is that? That does a, um, the futuristic one, which is apropos. Cause we're going to be talking about ordinals today.
And, uh, maybe we might say ordinals are the future. So, uh, welcome to, uh, multi-chain Mondays. Hey, uh, DFINITY handle, is there any way to get that music off?
Am I the only one hearing that?
To explore the amazing products and innovation possible when an application can leverage multiple blockchains at once? Uh, make sure to block this time off on your calendars each week because, uh, we're doing this every week and, uh, we're having all sorts of great conversations.
Uh, this week we're going to be talking ordinals with, uh, Bob Bodley and EZ Steve from Bionic. Uh, we may also have a few other guests, uh, join us.
Uh, I definitely recommend if you have any questions about ordinals or you want to, um, or you're part of the ordinal space and you want to just jump up here and, and join the conversation.
The, uh, the request speaker is always open and we'll get you on up here.
The, uh, just a quick, uh, promo for future spaces. Uh, next week we'll be, uh, featuring, uh,
Bitfinity and my new drivers to talk about, uh, how combining Bitcoin and Ethereum in the same app can be a game changer for the crypto industry.
After that, on December 11th, we're going to have a conversation about stable coins with some pretty big, uh, guests from the stable coin community.
And then I want to close out, uh, on December 18th, I want to get a, uh, um, a space together to talk about predictions for the crypto industry, whether it's Bitcoin or Ethereum.
And so if you have any, uh, key opinion leaders who you think should join that space, go ahead and just give them a tag and, and, and make me aware.
And, and we'll try to set that up. Um, but that's, that's it for today, Bob and Steve, how are you guys doing?
Doing fantastic. Thanks for having us. Can you hear me? Okay.
I hear you. Perfect.
Awesome.
Steve, you doing well too?
Doing, doing great. Thanks for, thanks for having me up today.
Now I know, I know both of you guys are U S based. So I'm going to ask, uh, what was the best part of your Thanksgiving plate?
And, um, if, if none of your relatives are listening, what was perhaps the worst part of your Thanksgiving plate?
Oh, it's all about the green bean casserole with the crunchy onions on top. I could just eat that.
How about you, Bob?
Yeah, I, I'm a big fan of pie. And so one of my uncles made a cranberry apple pie, homemade, homemade crust. It was fantastic.
Oh, that sounds amazing.
Bob, you'll, you'll love this. I, I threw a slice of apple pie in my Nutribullet with ice cream for breakfast the day after.
Uh, thanks for, uh, yeah, it was, it was great.
I don't, I don't know that I saw that specific recipe on the Nutribullet, uh, website or marketing campaign.
Well, they have permission to use it if they want it.
All right. One, one more Thanksgiving question.
Are you guys a full plate gravy, uh, or, or partial plate gravy, or do you keep the gravy off your plate?
No, gravy goes on everything.
All right, I knew we would get along.
Yeah, for me, I, it used to be gravy goes on everything, but lately the cranberry sauce is having a resurgence.
And so I just really, really enjoy some, some good cranberry sauce on, on the turkey.
Nice.
So gravy's taking a more tempered role in my Thanksgiving plate these days.
Well, Bob, you recently posted that you turned 33 recently.
So I, I think that that is a healthy lifestyle choice to replace the gravy with some cranberry sauce.
Yes, maybe, maybe the cranberry sauce is real good.
So it can't be that good for me.
It's a lot of sugar, I think.
Um, Hey, let's, uh, everyone listening to this, if you don't mind, just go ahead and give a quick share of the space, get the word out.
I know the ordinal show, uh, was going on just before this, uh, and actually may still be, be, uh, going.
And so I saw they had.
Honestly, the, the, the ordinal show will probably go for another six hours, uh, based on, you know, previous ordinal shows.
Sometimes they just get in a groove and they just crank.
So there's six hours of content that they can produce, huh?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I saw that they had 220 listens when I checked.
I'd like for us to get to that level.
So if you guys don't mind, give a quick, uh, um, share or reshare and, uh, let's, uh, let's at least make sure we're, we're, uh, we're showing, showing up, uh, pretty well for the space.
Uh, so, so Steve and Bob, I was, I was hoping if we could touch on, I'm not sure if everyone knows what ordinals are and I want to make a statement and I want to, I want you guys to tell me what's correct about that statement and what's false about that statement.
Uh, so here's the statement, ordinals or just Bitcoin NFTs.
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there.
And yeah, I'll, I'll take it first and then easy can chime in, uh, in their most simple form, the best way to think about ordinals.
If you have five seconds is they are Bitcoin NFTs.
Um, if you have like 30 seconds, then you can start to get into some of the nuances like ordinals are interesting because all of the image data is stored on Bitcoin itself.
This is in contrast to like Ethereum NFTs where the majority of Ethereum NFTs are actually not stored on Ethereum because it's quite expensive to do so.
Uh, rather people store them in IPFS or Arweave or other decentralized storage, um, protocols, uh, on Bitcoin.
There is this, um, you know, fully on chain idea, which will resonate with, with a lot of the ICP listeners.
And, uh, yeah, that's one of the key distinguishing features of ordinals.
So, so go ahead, Steve.
Well, I was just going to say that the term that you'll, you'll probably hear the most within ordinals is digital artifact.
And I mean, some people, some people will say that that's not an NFT.
I think if you think about it, literally a digital artifact is a, it's a, it's a type of NFT, almost like a subcategory.
Uh, and to define something like that, you would say they are immutable, permissionless, uh, uncensorable, uh, everything's on chain.
It can, it can, it can be owned and ownership can be transferred.
Uh, and so it's the, it's the, really the, the permanence of Bitcoin, um, that makes it a digital artifact versus what some would call like a high, a high level NFT or what you'd see on Ethereum or on the internet computer.
I think, I mean, you guys are touching on the idea that an ordinal is actually maybe the, um, manifestation of what NFTs were intended to be all along in terms of always on chain, always permissionless, always censorship resistant.
Um, and so I think within the ICP community, we can understand that very easily because I think we, we've done a great job of having NFTs have those properties, um, is, is, um, is maybe ordinal is the next evolution, maybe like the, or the permanent evolution for NFTs.
Like this is like, uh, it's reached its, what do you call it when you've like reached your perfect form and, and now, now this is the, uh, this is the new standard.
This is, this is definitely something that Bitcoiners aspire to, uh, meaning move slowly and, um, you know, learn from other, other experiments going on on other chains and then bring back the best of what you find on other, other chains and bring them back to Bitcoin.
Um, and so this idea of, you know, ordinals being the culmination of, uh, you know, years of work in the NFT space, I think would resonate nicely with, with a lot of, a lot of people on Bitcoin.
Um, and it's, I think there are lots of ways to do what ordinals are doing.
I mean, we're getting soul scriptions and ETH scriptions and doge scriptions and I guess do, do genals, you know, we're, we're getting this same kind of idea on other chains, but I think the, the staying power of Bitcoin ordinals and inscriptions on Bitcoin is that you have the, the full security and decentralization of Bitcoin, uh, for your assets.
And so, uh, that, that, that gives, you know, it's, it's, it's almost like ordinals are like the, the truest, the purest form of this, this, uh, instantiation or this, this idea of NFTs.
It, it sounds, um, so I guess I love the dogenals, by the way, uh, whoever coined that was, uh, a genius from a marketing perspective.
What, what is, so ordinals are new, uh, 2023 was kind of when they first even became possible.
What, who have become like the big players within the ordinal space so far?
Like Bob, I think you've got, uh, you've got a ninja there, um, as your PFP, uh, give us kind of like a lay of the land of like, what is, uh, who are the big players, uh, who are the big creators and, and, um, and maybe what are the marketplace options right now?
Easy, you want to walk people through an ecosystem tour of sorts?
Yeah, so if you're, uh, just running through like kind of platforms and tools and wallets that are out there, Magic Eden is probably the largest marketplace for, uh, visual, I'll say visual inscriptions.
So not like BRC20 or Sats names, but images, like your more traditional NFT, um, uh, that marketplace also is done entirely with just BTC.
Um, they're not on, uh, another chain.
It's all using, uh, partially signed Bitcoin transactions to, to execute those trades.
And they've done a really good job.
Like it's, it's easy to use.
It looks great.
Um, for BRC20s, which is kind of this whole other side of ordinals where people have used the protocol to, to build fungible tokens, uh, a lot of, most of the trading there, I think is still done through Unisat, which is, again, it's, it gives you a feel of more like a, a DEX that you'd find with like ERC20 tokens.
Um, and then there was also say there's one big centralized exchange.
Was it OKX?
I think I actually, I don't really use it, but they have, um, you know, massive support for, uh, BRC20 tokens.
Um, and so those are kind of your, your main players and, and there are a few others, you know, ordinals wallet was an early one.
There's some, uh, you know, more open protocols, like open ordex is also like pretty cool.
There's, there's, there's a lot of options out there and people are doing some really interesting things.
Um, wallets, again, you have like, uh, like leather or it used to be hero.
So that's from the stacks, stacks foundation, um, which is great.
X-verse, uh, wallet, which is another one.
And so it's, so a lot of these wallets have started to pop up that, that support, uh, the ordinals protocol as well.
In terms of collections, you know, we've seen a pretty, um, a pretty good mix between free mints that have been really successful and then also, uh, paid mints.
You know, like, um, OMB, which is probably, uh, a favorite, uh, within the community, uh, Bitcoin frogs, which was a free mint.
That's, I think it's actually the number one collection right now in terms of all-time trading volume, or at least in the past couple months.
Um, and we're seeing more of that.
That's actually surprising to me.
That's the number one in all-time trading so far.
I had, uh, in four, I'll say four images.
So not including BRC20 tokens.
Um, when I talk about ordinals, I'll, I'll usually, I'm usually referring to more traditional NFTs.
Um, but because BRC20 is kind of a whole other beast that you, you kind of tackle separately, but often included.
Uh, yeah, Bitcoin frogs, uh, at least in the last 30 days, I think it is all-time though.
Um, so that was an early free mint.
Um, and, you know, there have been more that have been popping up.
You know, they did the, uh, Bitcoin punks, Bitcoin apes.
So people inscribing, um, all of the crypto punks and board apes and, you know, those, those have done really well.
There's some cool collections that, that are, uh, really making waves.
And I think one thing that's, you know, typically really interesting is a lot of these collections are pre-inscribed.
Um, and when you do that, you kind of build credibility for yourself right off the bat because it's not cheap.
You know, um, in the very beginning of ordinals, it still probably would have cost you, you know, $10,000 or, or more to, to mint a 10K collection.
Um, now it's, it's even more than that.
Uh, and you don't see that really on, on any other chain that, that initial cost if you're, if you're pre-inscribing or, or pre-minting.
Um, I think, um, so a couple, couple of questions are actually, first, would it be reasonable to say an ordinal is typically an image or maybe exclusively an image, whereas an inscription can include the BRC20 tokens, it can be text, all that kind of stuff?
Uh, so you could use both interchangeably.
So, um, uh, you can refer to any inscription as an inscription, ordinal as an ordinal.
Um, Bob, you could probably speak better to the, actually the difference between those two, but those words are used interchangeably for both.
Um, a BRC20 inscription is just, uh, it's just JSON.
Um, and then the protocol is indexed separately.
So, um, it's a protocol on top of a protocol or meta, meta protocol.
Um, yeah, let me, let me dive into this a little bit.
Um, ordinals can be anything.
Uh, any data can be inscribed to Bitcoin.
This could be code.
This could be HTML files.
This could be SVG.
Um, you could do video.
You can do web pages.
You can, um, do images of any kind of file format.
Um, you can do 3D files.
It's, it's essentially, uh, you know, you could stick anything you want on Bitcoin.
Just get the, you know, bytes, uh, for, for whatever, whatever your asset is.
And then you can just stick it on Bitcoin using the ordinals protocol.
And there are a variety of supported MIME types.
Um, but there's not, I mean, you can use any kind of MIME type that you want.
You don't have to actually conform to an existing MIME type.
You can make up your own MIME type.
You could do crazy encrypted stuff.
Like there's, no one is preventing you from putting whatever you want on Bitcoin.
And all of these would be considered inscriptions because you're inscribing the data to Bitcoin.
Um, almost all of the, you know, art collections on Bitcoin are using image or SVG or HTML or,
or video or, you know, other, other file formats like that.
And then you have what EZ was talking about, the, the meta protocols, um, and meta protocols
are generally JSON objects that are inscribed that have a particular structure indicating
they are a meta protocol message.
So it might be like deploy a token or mint a token or transfer a token or swap a token,
you know, various actions that you may want to do with your tokens.
Um, but there are others, there's, you know, like Sats, uh, Sats names.
So SNS, um, not the ICP SNS, but, but the Sats name, um, SNS and, uh, having a name service
is, you know, uh, like a first comes first name service also works as a meta protocol.
Um, there was a news meta protocol where you could actually like inscribe news stories,
kind of cement them in history to prevent them from ever being changed.
Uh, so yeah, that's, that's a bit on meta protocols.
So that's the topic we could dive deep down.
Um, but before let's keep, uh, let's come back up and I want to ask, uh, so easy, you
had mentioned about, um, how you can great, you can gain, um, uh, credibility within the
ordinals community by, by doing the inscription first, right.
By, by taking your ordinals and actually putting it on chain prior, um, that kind of touches
on like a design feature, which is that, or maybe bug, I don't know.
Uh, I, I, it's probably, we'd consider, let's consider it a feature, um, where if you have
a collection of ordinals that you want to put on the, um, on chain, you're basically almost
filling up the mempool with just your one project.
And so you're almost competing against yourself, um, from a, uh, um, uh, from, from a fee perspective
of the Bitcoin fee that's going to be paid just for the transaction.
Is that, is that why it's so expensive is, is cause you're, you're essentially filling
up the mempool.
And, uh, so it's hard, it's more expensive to do a large collection on, on Bitcoin.
Yeah.
So, um, I think it's, it's kind of a feature.
It's also a bug.
It has its pros and cons, right?
Where if you're, it prevents potentially really great projects from being able to, to launch.
It also creates a way for projects that are looking for a way to kind of build their reputation
to, to do that, to kind of put in that, uh, the money in kind of upfront so the community,
community can see.
Um, it's going to cost a lot, not just because you're filling up the mempool, but just because
of Bitcoin fees, you know, there's, there's always inscribing going on.
We've seen Bitcoin fees jump up over the past, you know, eight months, um, incredibly.
And so, yeah, you are, you are definitely going to drive up costs for yourself, but even if
you did, you know, like that, you didn't have to do them all at once.
Like you could do a, you know, couple a day or, you know, every few hours.
Um, it's just, it's just not cheap.
Bitcoin's an expensive chain.
Uh, it's kind of meant to be an expensive chain.
Um, and so there, there are ways to make it, you know, to kind of ease the, the financial
burden on yourself by, by spreading out your inscriptions.
But, uh, ultimately, yeah, you are yourself driving up fees and then as is everyone else
that's, that's using Bitcoin at the same time.
Well, let's, uh, if anyone out there has more questions on ordinals, go ahead and request
speaker, I'd love to get you on, um, get you up here.
I don't want to spend the whole time talking about ordinals, although I'm certainly happy
to, to circle back on this topic and, and go even deeper.
I think what, what you're hearing is you've got, um, uh, between Bob and easy Steve, you've
got a complete, uh, wealth of information here on ordinals.
So if you've ever wondered what they were, what, what, what's going on, uh, how things are,
are, are shaping out, um, go ahead and request speaker.
In the meantime, I want to give you guys, so, um, I mean, I, from my point of view, it
seems like, you know, Steve, you're just mentioning about the high cost of inscriptions, um, and
the fact that they maybe have to be pooled together.
Um, you also have, uh, the user experience, um, certainly a couple of months ago was, was,
was not great at all.
Um, and I think, uh, there's been some development like, like the leather wallet, uh, I've heard
has actually, uh, been a vast improvement.
Um, and that kind of like brings me around to bionic and what your guys' hope is for
ordinals and how maybe you're, you're approaching, uh, solving those two problems and, and, you
know, what other problems bionic will solve for the ordinal community.
Do you guys want to give, um, some background on bionic and, and how, how you guys see, see
the ordinal community taking shape?
Um, yeah, uh, I, I think I'll preface this by saying that ICP right now, that's, that's
internet computer protocol makes, uh, absolutely fantastic Bitcoin side chain.
Uh, what I mean by that is ICP has really great, uh, protocol primitives that make it a fantastic
place to build Bitcoin applications right now.
So if you, um, let me just give you a few examples.
Um, ICP has a Bitcoin light node that is running fully on chain.
That means that you can just query that smart contract in order to retrieve Bitcoin balances
or get UTXOs held by a particular account.
So this is essentially, um, decentralized, uh, Bitcoin light node, uh, which is really
cool.
Let's you read Bitcoin very effectively.
Uh, there's also a threshold signing protocol called TECDSA.
ECDSA is a fairly common, um, signing algorithm.
It's what like Ethereum and Bitcoin use or any other ECDSA chain.
And it lets you sign Bitcoin transactions, native L1 Bitcoin transactions directly from the
and ICP smart contract.
So it lets you write directly to the Bitcoin blockchain as well.
Uh, beyond reading and writing, there's also a Bitcoin bridge called CKBTC.
So you can wrap Bitcoin over, uh, from, from Bitcoin to the ICP side.
And it uses, it's similar, um, it's similar to a multi-sig except instead of like, you know,
user controlled, it's, it's protocol controlled.
So the internet computer protocol itself has a set of nodes that each have a private key
share.
And those nodes are responsible for, um, signing those, those transactions on your behalf when
you wrap Bitcoin over to the ICP side.
And so, you know, put, put all of these things together and ICP makes for a really, really great
Bitcoin side chain.
Um, beyond that, the, you know, the bigger goal of what ICP is trying to accomplish is
to be the decentralized web services blockchain.
So think about AWS, you know, Amazon web services as, you know, central, they, they provide centralized
compute hosting and storage.
ICP is trying to provide decentralized compute, decentralized hosting and decentralized storage.
So you can store, you know, your front ends, um, on, on ICP, actually serve up your front
ends from a smart contract.
Um, you can store, uh, store things, uh, it's $5 per gigabyte per year to store, um, data
on ICP.
So that's not as cheap as like S3, but it's, um, you know, way cheaper than storing things
natively on like Bitcoin or Ethereum, um, just because of the trade-offs that the blockchains
have made.
And then, you know, hosting, um, hosting storage and, and compute as well.
You get gigahertz level compute on ICP.
So put all of this together.
And in, in my mind right now, you know, pick, pick the two most complimentary things like,
uh, peanut butter and jelly or peanut butter and Nutella, or, uh, you know, whatever your
favorite, favorite combos are.
And that's, that's how I think about ICP and Bitcoin right now, because they're, they just
work so well together.
Um, you can build directly on the application layer on ICP.
You don't have to touch the consensus layer of the protocol and you can build all kinds
of things.
Um, so yeah, this is kind of a brief intro into like why Bionic is built on ICP and why
we're building on a Bitcoin side chain and, you know, how, how all of those dots connect
underneath the hood that kind of sets the stage for Bionic, which is our ordinals marketplace
and launch pad that we're building on ICP on this Bitcoin side chain, um, in order to
enable, uh, what we've been saying is the, the greatest user experience for ordinals.
Um, it should be really fast, you know, two to five second finality.
Um, there are no network fees or gas fees.
It has a reverse gas model.
And so users don't have to pay fees.
You can do tokenless interactions.
So the user experience is fantastic.
And, uh, there are some really interesting ways that we can kind of leverage, um, you
know, leverage the benefits of ICP and the benefits of Bitcoin together to help creators,
you know, do what they want, you know, build successful businesses, build successful web
through businesses.
Um, so yeah, that's, uh, maybe a tad long, uh, intro into, you know, why ICP and, and
what, what, what we're trying to do with Bionic here.
I love, I'm still picturing the peanut butter and jelly analogy, and I'm trying to figure
out is, uh, Bitcoin, the peanut butter or is Bitcoin, the jelly.
And, and I've, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm leaning towards, um, peanut butter right now.
Definitely.
Definitely.
The peanut butter.
I mean, chunky, chunky peanut butter.
In fact, yes, if you've ever held a can of peanut butter upside down and it just doesn't
move at all, uh, I think, but also like the, the, the richness, the protein content, you
know, the, uh, yeah, Bitcoin's definitely the peanut butter.
I don't think anyone sold Bitcoin as a, as a, uh, food before, uh, but peanut butter sounds
like, I mean, it, yeah, it moves slow.
It, uh, it's, it's full of nutrients and, you know, it's just a staple.
It's something you need in your pantry, uh, no matter where you are in the world.
And so I think that fits well.
And, um, so Bionic is a, uh, an Ordinal's marketplace built on the internet computer.
Uh, is that all, is that all it is?
Is, is just, uh, you can host your collection there and, and, or, or sell, sell parts of
your collection, how, how does it, like, how does it differentiate itself?
Yeah.
I mean, uh, initially, so we're, we're, we're going to be launching Bionic very soon.
Um, and initially at launch, you will be able to buy and sell Ordinals.
You'll be able to put offers on any Ordinal and you'll be able to do, you know, kind of
true English auctions, uh, meaning fully functional, uh, nice, uh, great user experience,
English auctions.
Uh, that will be our initial, uh, feature set, um, at, at release with the key differentiators
of it'll just be really, really easy to use.
We're using web three auth as our authentication.
Uh, so you just log in with Google and then we have a built-in wallet.
So you don't need to download a browser extension or anything.
And the wallet is a full Bitcoin wallet, as well as a full ICP wallet.
Um, that's necessary because you need to be able to receive, send and hold Bitcoin assets.
You also need to be able to convert all of those assets over to the ICP side, essentially
as, you know, wrapped Bitcoin, which is CKBTC or wrapped Ordinals to transact on the marketplace.
And then you need the full ICP wallet in order to hold and manage those assets.
So, um, rather than, you know, doing all kinds of crazy things with the wallet, we just have
a really nice, easy to use built-in wallet, uh, directly into Bionic.
So you log in with Google and you're ready to go.
Your wallet set up is just right there.
Um, because we have the full Bitcoin wallet support, you can send Bitcoin directly to,
to your Bionic Bitcoin address and then just convert over and, and you're, you're off,
off, off to the races essentially.
So, um, I think the, the key differentiator that, that we're going for here is, um, speed,
convenience, user experience, just make it, you know, really, really, really easy to use
and let's onboard, you know, all the Bitcoiners in the world to Ordinals, um, in, in the easiest,
easiest way possible.
I think, I mean, you're touching on something I'm, um, um, I'm constantly harping on, which
is the user experience matters, uh, and it matters a lot more than maybe we appreciate
within, within our industry.
Um, we have pinned a easy Steve tweet, uh, where he logs in with Google, uh, he buys Bitcoin
with Fiat, um, real easy on ramp.
Do you guys see that as, um, I guess like who are the initial, uh, target audience?
Is it going to be people who need to buy Bitcoin, uh, and, and so you're giving them an easy
on ramp, uh, to become a Bitcoiner or is it Bitcoiners who maybe were already involved in
Ordinals and, and now you're giving them a marketplace with a great user experience for
them to buy and sell their, uh, their Ordinals?
Yeah, I think the markets definitely, if you've heard about Bitcoin or you're Bitcoin curious,
or even if you like hate Bitcoin, um, you know, I think a lot of people have
misconceptions about, uh, what, what Bitcoin is and, and how it works and why it's helpful.
Uh, so, you know, the, the prerequisites are essentially, you know, what Bitcoin is
and you like NFTs or you've had previous exposure to NFTs, or you're just a creator.
Maybe you're a creator and you just really like Bitcoin.
And so, uh, it's, it's a fairly broad audience that, that we're tackling here.
Maybe it's, you know, maybe you hold some Bitcoin in a Robin hood account or something
like that, or maybe you even just hold like some mean coins in a Robin hood account and,
you know, we want to onboard you to Bitcoin Ordinals in, in the easiest way possible.
Uh, so yeah, I think we're casting a fairly, uh, a fairly broad net here in terms of who we're
targeting as users.
Uh, I think we've buried the lead a little bit.
Uh, what, when is Bionic launching?
Yeah.
So this is, uh, this is alpha, uh, never been announced publicly before.
So congrats to everyone hanging out on multi-chain Mondays, uh, instead of the Ordinal show, uh,
huge props to the Ordinal show.
I love the Ordinal show.
Uh, Trevor and Leonidas and Jan do a fantastic job.
Uh, but yeah, we are launching Bionic this week, uh, right now targeting Wednesday, November
29th.
So this will be, you know, probably early afternoon, uh, U.S.
time, uh, that we will do an official rollout of Bionic.
Everything's ready to go.
We're just doing, you know, final, final tweaks.
Uh, but you know, we've had testers in there for a couple of weeks now and everything's looking
really, really great.
Uh, we're getting tons of feedback from creators on interesting ways that we can combine ICP
and Bitcoin to, you know, help creators build successful web through businesses.
And so, uh, yeah, very, very excited for the launch this week.
It's been a long time coming.
So, so Wednesday, Wednesday, November 29th, if you're listening to this space, you're, you're
probably within the, uh, the week right here that it's launching.
Where, where can people sign up?
Like how do, how do people keep up to date on the launch and everything that going, going,
that's going on around it?
Yeah, definitely follow, uh, you know, follow me and easy Steve on, on Twitter.
There's also a Bionic market.
Um, it's just at Bionic market.
That's Bionic with a Q at the end, um, Twitter handle.
And then, you know, we'll, we'll announce everything from, from our, our Twitter accounts.
Uh, it, we, we currently have an Explorer live on Bionic.io.
So you can go and check that out, but you won't actually be able to, um, you know, log
in or get your wallet or anything like that until we officially push out all of those features
on Wednesday.
But yeah, it'll just show up on, on Bionic.io.
That's awesome.
Wednesday, Wednesday's the day.
Uh, not, not Dogfinity.
We've got you up here.
Uh, you got a question or, uh, something you want to, something you want to say?
Don't forget to come off, uh, speaker, uh, off mute right there.
If you're with us, not Dogfinity.
I saw you throwing up some emojis.
I know you're, you're here with us.
Just, uh, maybe the, uh, uh, mute button's not working.
Well, either way, when, when you get off mute, uh, let me know and we'll, we'll go ahead
and bring you on.
If anyone else has any questions, comments, uh, you've got, you've got Bob and Steve here,
uh, again, whether it's ordinals, whether it's ICP, whether it's how those two things interact,
um, go ahead and request speaker.
We'll get your pull it up here.
Uh, easy Steve.
I wanted to ask you.
So, I mean, I, I've been kind of following what you guys are doing.
I'm, I'm really excited for Bionic Market.
I love that you guys have focused on user experience, uh, within ordinals.
Um, I love how you guys have used ICP for kind of the core features that, that work really
well with Bitcoin.
Uh, and you, and you threw away the things that don't, that didn't really work and you
made sure you built a great product.
So I think all of these ordinals, uh, the ordinal community will be coming over to Bionic in
the future.
And it's going to be this great melding between the ICP community and the Bionic or the, uh,
ordinal community.
Uh, what, from your perspective, I guess, where, where, how are those two communities different?
What might be, um, the points where we all kind of have a kumbaya moment?
What might be, um, some points where there's a little bit more friction?
Um, yeah, so I think the biggest difference between the ordinals community and the NFT
community community on, on really any chain.
So not even just the IC, but Ethan soul is when ordinals launched, uh, NFTs had existed
for, you know, a long time.
Um, and most people from the ordinals community came from, uh, Ethereum, soul, internet computer,
one of these other NFT, um, ecosystems.
And in doing so, it kind of weeded out, you know, the diehard maxis, um, the people that,
you know, couldn't even ever think to look at another ecosystem.
And it created this group of people that are just far more open-minded and, and willing
to experiment and try new things because one, they're clearly okay with, you know, existing
on multiple chains.
And then two, Bitcoin lacks, um, you know, smart contracts.
And so there's a good amount of things that can't be done on Bitcoin.
And they, like the Bitcoin community acknowledges that, uh, and so if you're able to build an
application, whether it be on IC or on stacks or any of these other solutions that are, that
are being created, and, you know, you still are able to stay true to like the core values
of ordinals and, and respect, you know, why people love it and build something new that
can't be done elsewhere.
The community is going to be a lot more willing to, to accept that.
And so, uh, that's, I mean, that's a big reason why I, you know, feel so good about this.
I think that the reception is just going to be from the ordinals community will, will be
a lot stronger than you would find if you tried to do like, uh, um, like ETH NFT marketplace
on the IC.
I think it just wouldn't, it wouldn't have that, that same impact, um, areas where, you
know, it's funny areas where there could be friction.
That's, that's a interesting question.
You know, I hadn't, nothing comes to mind immediately.
Um, there will probably be aspects of the internet computer that ordinals people aren't thrilled
about, and that's okay.
I mean, that's with any, any multi-chain, um, any multi-chain project.
I think the important thing is just acknowledging them and, you know, being honest about what
chains can't do, can do, and can't do, and where they're strongest and, and kind of using
both chains where they're strongest.
Um, and there will probably be a good amount of, you know, there are people within the IC
community that are, you know, IC maxis and are maybe like, you know, kind of not seeing the
big picture about what's, uh, what we're all trying to achieve and just would rather that
everything just stay on the IC.
Um, I think those are probably reasonable, reasonable things to expect.
I don't think they're overly significant.
Um, I think that's kind of just the nature of, of crypto and, you know, because of tokens
and people's bags, you'll always have friction between chains.
Um, but ultimately I don't think it will be, um, I don't think we'll see a ton of friction.
Um, yeah, I hope, I, I would imagine you brought up a great point about, um, ICP and, and maybe,
uh, if there's an ICP maxi out there and hopefully they understand the, the vision of a world computer
always involves, um, this multi-chain world.
And, uh, and so this is just an, this is actually like progress towards that.
Um, you, right.
You bring up a great point.
I kind of laugh, like I was listening to a podcast like a year ago and this podcast went
into depth about the idea of handbells, you know, like we're coming up on Christmas and
a lot of Christmas music has handbells in it.
And apparently there's two manufacturers for handbells and within the handbell community,
you're either, I think Hammond was one and I can't remember the name of the other, but
you're one camp or the other.
And it is just a vicious, like where you decide.
And it is one of those things like listening from the outside, looking in, you're like, that
is the most ridiculous thing.
Why do people care about the product that much?
Like, why is there that kind of brand loyalty within this industry?
And then, and then I go back my day, uh, in crypto where it's all brand loyalty, right?
It's all, I'm a maxi of this chain.
I'm a maxi of that chain.
Um, which is really quite silly.
Uh, I imagine for anyone on the outside and they're like, well, shouldn't it just be about
the products being built and, you know, build, build great products that if it's built on
a different chain, uh, then, then that's even, uh, then, then that's great because you're
still getting adoption within the industry.
Um, and so, so I kind of, I, I have enjoyed, uh, venturing into the Bitcoin economy, you know,
all these side chains and L2s.
Everyone's very collaborative.
Everyone's kind of got this mindset of build the pie.
Don't worry about your slice of the pie.
And, and it's very, um, refreshing and I think healthy from a product development standpoint
where we might actually get to the point where we're building, um, products, uh, crypto products
that the, the, the product itself is the selling point, uh, and it can be more mass adopted
because, uh, cause it's less focused on having to be chain, you know, chain specific and can
just utilize the, uh, advantage of the beach chain.
I'm interested then, um, with that being said, if, if you guys.
Um, if you're initially thinking, so like when Bionic is launching on Wednesday, is it
going to incorporate, can basically any past ordinal that was inscribed in the past be included
on the marketplace?
Will it have to be like a time zero where only ordinals inscribed a certain way can be
included in the marketplace?
Um, I'm not sure if that question makes sense.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Uh, anything inscribed on Bitcoin becomes an ordinal and any ordinal can be,
can be used on Bionic.
So if you wanted to just throw some crazy, you know, uh, set of binary data onto the Bitcoin
blockchain and sell it on Bionic, you could, uh, all, you know, the, the entirety of, of
ordinals can be transacted on Bionic.
It strikes me that, uh, on ICP, you know, and this never really took off, but I think,
I think it can, is this idea of a dynamic NFT, one in which the traits of the NFT change over
time or based on certain events.
Whereas an ordinal you inscribe it once and it's, it's, it's there forever.
Uh, you can't, you can't go back in time and, and, and change the ordinal if, if I understand
it correctly.
So is there, do you guys see like a use case or, uh, um, where maybe there's an, uh, an
ICP NFT that's dynamic, uh, and somehow it relates to the static nature of Bitcoin.
And maybe that makes for an interesting application of, of, uh, uh, uh, these two technologies.
Yeah, I think I, I can take this one too.
Uh, Teo, I think I'm getting a little feedback on your, on your mic.
If, if you want to mute, um, okay.
Regarding dynamic NFTs, I think there are two really interesting ways to think about this,
um, on, on the ICP side, uh, to update an NFT is very, very fast, efficient, cheap.
Uh, you could do it 10 times a day, every day for an entire year, and it wouldn't be that
expensive to do something like that.
Uh, on Bitcoin, they do have something called re-inscriptions.
A re-inscription is essentially, uh, taking a single Satoshi and in one transaction store
some data, that's your first inscription, and then taking that same Satoshi, and in
a second transaction, storing some more data.
Uh, this is essentially like iteratively updating your inscription over time, but it's not a
in-place update, it's an additive update, meaning all of your previous inscription data is still
fully stored on Bitcoin.
It's like adding pages to a book, and you can add new pages to your book as long as you're
willing to pay for it, um, and the cost is a Bitcoin transaction.
And so the way that I think about dynamic NFTs in an ordinals context is on Bitcoin,
it is possible with existing ordinals collections to do dynamic NFTs.
Um, I would say it's the expensive form.
So, you know, you might only want to do it once a month or once a year or something like
that.
Uh, but if you pay for it, you know, you could do it as often as you want.
And then on ICP, you have the, the really fast, cheap dynamic nature where you could do
it multiple times a day.
And so I think again, you know, ICP and BTC are very complimentary here where we, we could give
creators lots of different opportunities for very fast upgrades on the ICP side, almost in like a
reserved ordinals kind of way where it's off chain, meaning on ICP, uh, it's not on Bitcoin yet.
You can do all kinds of crazy stuff.
And then whenever you want to snapshot or etch or inscribe it to Bitcoin, then you inscribe
it to Bitcoin.
And now it's like, uh, you know, it's almost like you're saving your state, like a checkpoint
in a video game or something like that, where you save over to Bitcoin and, you know, you could
checkpoint or etch to Bitcoin whenever you want.
Um, it's just going to cost a Bitcoin transaction.
So I think there are a lot of really interesting ideas here.
Um, and we're just at the beginning of, of exploring these
these dynamic NFT concepts in the ordinal space.
I think, uh, if, you know, you mentioned checkpoint in a video game, um, if anyone
out there is listening, uh, use that as a anchor of like, Hey, what is possible with the,
with what Bob was just describing, um, and start innovating from there.
And Bob, you had, you had a, uh, tweet thread.
I'm going to go back almost two years ago.
You had this awesome tweet thread about how NFTs could be used for, um, things like wrapping
a digital business up and selling it or transacting it as a, as an NFT.
Uh, do you kind of see if, if, if you think back to like those innovative uses of NFTs, do
you anticipate ordinals will enable any of those, um, beyond, uh, beyond what was possible before,
before ordinals?
Yeah, yeah, uh, one of my, one of my favorite, uh, favorite posts of all time, uh, just because
it was, it was fun and crazy and, and interesting, uh, but also crazy to think that that was, you
know, two years plus, uh, two, two years ago.
Um, I think that from an NFT perspective, the advantage that ordinals have is the pay once
store forever model, uh, meaning you pay for the Bitcoin transaction and then your data is
stored on Bitcoin forever, uh, forever meaning until Bitcoin is no longer a functional proof
of work blockchain.
Uh, and so that's, that's the, the key value driver, I think.
Um, and the, the other part to that is you have the, uh, decentralization and the security
and the censorship resistance of Bitcoin itself.
And so you're essentially taking these, you know, digital artifacts and storing them on the
world's greatest, most decentralized database essentially.
And so, you know, that's where ordinal shines.
Um, a lot of my ideas were focused more on interfacing with the real world or like crazy
dynamic, um, NFTs or taking advantage of kind of the full stack nature of ICP.
And so I think the, the nice, you know, I'm, I'm going to say it again, you know, where ICP
and BTC come together is, you know, let's take advantage of the digital artifact, decentralized,
secure nature of Bitcoin, and let's give it superpowers, uh, by leveraging all of the awesome
tech and, and the awesome protocol primitives on the ICP side.
And I think together, um, you get a really nice match where you could do some of these,
uh, you know, crazy NFT ideas, uh, from, from my thread, but you could do them with ordinals.
Essentially giving them, you know, the, um, like an added layer of, of decentralization
and security that you can inherit from, from the Bitcoin side.
So I think ordinals essentially just augments all of these ideas.
Um, yeah.
Awesome.
I've, I've a few questions on the, uh, pay one store forever, but before we get into that tale,
you've been, uh, waiting patiently.
I want to give you a chance to come off a mute and see if, uh, and ask a question or make a statement.
Guys, honestly, I just, uh, clicked on the mic button, uh, by mistake.
I didn't actually want to ask a question.
I'm just a listener.
You can take the speaker role of me.
Well, hold on.
Well, then we're going to ask questions of you, Teo.
Uh, what are you most excited for in 2024?
If it's crypto related, awesome.
If not, uh, it can be anything else.
Yeah, sure.
Uh, I mean, uh, 2024 is, uh, going to be a really, uh, exciting time for, uh, crypto space,
uh, because a lot of new developments are coming, both on the, uh, smart context,
ethereum space and it's, uh, you know, uh, competitors, but, uh, I'm more interested
in, uh, actually, uh, the technological side of the, uh, developments rather than the,
you know, the bull market, uh, uh, the, uh, financial side, uh, defy, uh, defy is actually
a big part of crypto and it will be, uh, on the, uh, future, uh, of the, uh, blockchain,
I believe, but, uh, I come from an engineering background and, uh, of course finance is, uh,
a big part of the world we live in, but, uh, my perspective on blockchain is actually how it
can benefit, uh, humanity in more of a, uh, practical way and, uh, cloud computing especially
is, uh, one of my, uh, big, uh, focus, uh, points, uh, even before I get to know about, uh, blockchain
and crypto, uh, because, uh, uh, you know, we carry all these devices, laptops, uh, smartphones
and all this processing is actually done inside them. Uh, it doesn't make sense to me because, uh,
we used to have big, uh, PCs and all the data was in, uh, clunky hard drives, uh, in the past and now
we store everything in the cloud and in the future, all the computation will be done in the cloud as
well. Uh, so blockchain actually provides this computation to be done in a secure manner, uh,
private manner. So I think blockchain computing is the future. Uh, that's, uh, actually what most
interests me, uh, in the crypto space for 2024. And I'm especially focused on projects about that.
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for the response. I'd say, uh, keep tuning into these
spaces. Um, and we'll have, we'll have a few decentralized AI ones, which we'll touch directly
on that. Um, in the meantime, Bob, I, I had a question regarding, um, uh, uh, that's pay one store
forever. Cause I've, that's been something in the back of my mind for, for months now,
that idea, cause it seems like, you know, when you store any amount of information,
it costs money on a routine basis. Um, and so I guess I'm, I'm, it feels almost like a,
not a Ponzi, but, um, an unsustainable, um, system. So I was just, I'd be interested in hearing
your thoughts. Like how, how is, how does Bitcoin sustain that? Is it just because the, the, um,
everyone running a Bitcoin node is incentivized from like an on-ramp off-ramp perspective,
or is there some other way in which there's an incentive for people to continue to store
that data, uh, on behalf of the Bitcoin network? Yeah, I think that's a great question. Um, part of
the reason that, um, um,
Oh, did I, did I lose you guys or can you guys hear me?
I, you guys cut out for maybe 20 seconds on my end. Uh, it just came back though.
Okay. Bob, are you still with us?
I think we might've lost Bob.
Okay. I can hear you, but I cannot hear Bob.
Yeah. I can't hear me there.
Okay. Well, we'll, uh, I'll send Bob a quick message. Uh, in the meantime, Steve, um, what,
let me going back to the launch of Bionic, what, what are you getting most excited about now that
the product's going to be launched? Uh, what are you hoping to see in the first few weeks or months?
Yeah. I mean, great question. I'm, I'd say in like short midterm, like I'm Bob and I talk a lot about,
uh, basically how to support artists and creators and people that want to, you know,
leverage digital collectibles, NFTs, digital artifacts to, to grow their business. And so
one thing that, you know, we've, we've looked at in the industry is that, you know,
incentives aren't aligned between marketplaces and creators. And so our focus is, um, going to be on
kind of the creator side. And, you know, for the past two years, we've, we spent two years building out
like this absolutely fantastic launch pad, um, uh, platform where you can do super customized
first come first serve launches with all these, you know, pricing groups, special features, you know,
you could set up ducks auctions like, and it's been, you know, we've done over 500 launches now,
uh, using it. And so it's been battle tested. And because we're,
we're, because we're, we built this wrapped ordinals, uh, standard using, you know, IC NFT,
the IC NFT standard EXT, we can leverage it to do Bitcoin launches. Um, and so we already have this,
this great platform, and now we're able to just kind of take all that work we've done over two years
and then put it towards ordinals and then build out even further. Um, we want to, we
Oh, I think we might've lost you, Steve. Did I lose you? Oh, there you go. There you go. Yeah. So
see, a lot of our focus is going to be on, you know, how do we, how do we help creators succeed?
And so I'm really looking forward to, um, you know, I don't want to say too much right now,
but looking forward to a lot of the stuff that, that we have planned for, for the next, um, you
know, few months, year, uh, I think it's going to be, it's different. We're, we're really pushing in
a direction, uh, or planning to that you haven't seen in the industry. And so we're, we're really excited.
Is that, is that, uh, to say that we should see some like innovative product choices from you guys?
Yeah. I think you'll see some, you'll, you'll see, I don't know the best way to word it.
Yes. But yes, that's, that's, that's what you would say. Yeah. Innovative product choices.
That's a good teaser for, uh, for people to get involved. I mean, that's always, uh,
a copy paste is, uh, you, you know, you're, it's hard to beat an incumbent with the copy paste.
Um, you're talking about, uh, paradigm shift with, um, leveraging internet computer and Bitcoin
network. Uh, and that, and that of course should be a paradigm shift in the product. So
I'll be looking forward to seeing that. Um, Bob, did we get you back?
Yes, I'm back. Uh, my internet, uh, well, my, my power, the power to my house flashed off
and then came back on. So internet died. And so I got, I got, uh, kicked off the space, but I'm back.
Awesome. Awesome. Uh, I'm going to throw it back to you on that, uh, pay forever or pay one store
forever of Bitcoin before I do though, just a quick reminder. Hey, you have two of perhaps the
most forward looking thinkers on ordinals, uh, in this space. So I, if you've got a question,
if you've got a comment, uh, go ahead and throw up the speaker and we'll get you up here. Um,
so Bob, you cut out early in the conversation on, um, on, on how, uh, uh, Bitcoin's, uh,
incentive structure still works in a, uh, pay once pay up front and store forever, uh, world.
Yeah. So part of the reason why it works, um, this is what I was saying before the power flash,
uh, part, part of the reason why it works is Bitcoin block space is fairly limited. Uh,
you only get four megabytes maximum of data every 10 minutes. It ends up being around 200 gigabytes per
year. Um, so that's part of the reason why this model, um, is somewhat sustainable is because it's
just so restricted. Uh, I think year over year, we'll continue to see improvements in, in storage
and, um, you know, other, other improvements at the hardware level that can enable, um, uh, basically
enable lower, um, lower caliber devices to still run and sync a Bitcoin node. Um, another interesting
fact here is that all of this is stored in the witness data and the witness data was intentionally
created to store data that is less essential perhaps to the core functionality of Bitcoin.
Uh, this means that nodes can prune their witness data prune, meaning not store if you, it essentially
don't store it if you don't want to store it. Um, so you can prune the witness data. Um, all of the
image data is stored in, in the witness data itself. Um, but yeah, I think the, the idea for the model,
um, is that you pay it to store your data in a Bitcoin transaction that will then be synced by all
Bitcoin full nodes, uh, forever. Um, you know, assuming that, um, the security budget for Bitcoin
in the longterm can be sustained via fees on the Bitcoin network itself.
Yeah. Udi had a great tweet a couple of days ago about how Taproot Wizard's goal, uh,
or their mission is to increase the fees, um, the fees generated within, uh, for Bitcoin miners.
Is that, do you guys think that like, that's a, that's the right way to frame this is, uh, um,
hey, this is a way for miners to be remained profitable and for the security model to keep
working? Yeah. I mean, I think as, you know, with the having coming up, miners have to, you know,
be aware of what's happening, uh, in order to have sustainable businesses. And so they're looking at
not just, you know, winning a block reward, um, but also looking at network fees and, you know, the,
uh, normally you see some kind of, um, um, you know, normally hash rate will drop at the Bitcoin
halving. Um, and even leading up to it, it, it may kind of, well, I don't know, leading up to it,
it might, it might increase. We are seeing like all time, um, all time hash rate on, on Bitcoin right
now, tons and tons and tons of new, um, new hash rate coming on board right now. And so
going into the having, it'll be really interesting, uh, to see what kind of role
ordinals and BRC 20, um, transactions play in, you know, sustaining miners, uh, through,
through the having. I think there's also an interesting idea here for miners to be more
involved in the kind of Bitcoin L2 ecosystem space. I think, you know, sovereign rollups or ZK
rollups on Bitcoin are going to want to partner with miners to have reliable block production for
their rollups, uh, rollups, you know, are going to have lots and lots and lots of transactions.
They're going to want to, you know, put into really, really big transactions could even be one,
two, three, four, uh, megabyte transactions full of, uh, rollup transactions. And, you know,
partnering with miners could be an interesting way for them to have more reliable block production.
And so I think there are ways for miners to get involved in this new economy on Bitcoin that
extends beyond just, uh, network fees and winning a block. Um, but I, I, I think miners can actually
become participants in this, you know, new Bitcoin economy. Yeah. I just pulled up total hash rate.
Um, so if you're not familiar, cause I think, you know, if you're listening in this from the ICP
community and you're, you don't, um, you don't follow the, uh, Bitcoin, um, community as well,
uh, total hash rate is basically the amount of computational power of the miners. And as that goes
up, it makes it harder for miners to make money because it makes it less likely to look at a block
reward. Um, I just pulled up a chart the last three months, the total hash rate has almost,
has gone up by almost 50%. So you're going into a having where it's harder to make revenue as a
miner and what little revenue you are making is going to get cut in half, uh, at least from one
of those revenue streams, um, starting in what April of next year, I know from private conversations,
uh, miners that this is the number one issue for miners and, and they are actually, you know,
actively working to figure out how to build a robust and secure Bitcoin economy so that the,
um, uh, transaction fees make up a bigger portion of their, their revenue. Uh, so that'll be an
interesting space to follow. Uh, and it's, it kind of makes me laugh because you, you, um,
you see some of these comments about like how Bitcoin should just be like a store value and
nothing more. And, and I, I feel like some of the, the bigger voices that are saying that are,
are blind to the fact that, uh, the entire industry is going to move that way regardless of,
of, of anything just because of economics, um, for, for that reason. Um, in terms of, uh,
or no, so, so Steve, you were talking about creators. Um, is there, let me, let me, uh,
let me ask this question. What would be the ideal creator to come build on, uh, to, to launch their,
um, launch their collection on Bionic? Is there kind of like a, a, I don't want to say a stereotype,
but like what kind of qualities would a good, good creator have?
Oh, that's a, that's a great question. Cause I think there's, you know, there are a lot of
different, um, there's a lot of different types of creators with different levels of
expertise and experience. And I don't think that there is one ideal. Um, we are definitely
trying to focus the platform in a way that if you are elastic, maybe you're completely new to web
three. Um, and you've been, uh, you know, maybe you're a amateur professional artist,
new to web three, trying to get involved. We are trying to build the platform in a way that
you can go from no experience and kind of have, uh, and build your, your brand and, and your
business from, from nothing. So it should be easy enough where you can start from zero, but then
also for maybe your, you know, you've had several very successful collections and you've, you've been
in the space for a long time, uh, like it's, it should also be able to, to support you. And so I think
to be, to capture everyone, I think we want people who are interested in, in really like growing a
growing a business, um, while using digital collectibles, um, versus like, I mean, you,
of course you could still do like, you know, maybe it's just a free mint, no roadmap, nothing happens.
You just kind of want to put some art out and see what happens. Like, of course you could do that,
but I think the focus of the platform is going to be on people that really want to grow their
business and, and get involved in, in web three and, and take it to kind of the next level.
Um, I would, I think the one thing I would add is if you're an existing creator, whether it's, uh,
an artist or a photographer or a graphic designer, or, uh, whether you're a blogger or, you know, you're,
um, uh, yeah, just any, any kind of creator. Um, and you're trying to grow a following on Instagram
or TikTok or, you know, trying to grow SEO. Um, and you are trying to, you know, monetize the work
that you're doing, whether it's your writing or, you know, creating art or creating music. Um, as a
musician, I think if you're a creator, that's trying to build a viable business, I think you would be,
uh, not, you know, like, like easy said, there are lots of potential paths where like the,
the bionic, uh, creator program is going to be helpful to you, but I think it would be a really
good fit for anyone currently kind of in the weeds of trying to grow, uh, grow their own business, uh,
as, as a creator, I think it would be a really, really good fit, uh, to come and work in the
bionic creator program. So this is definitely something that's still in the works. Um, easy
and I chat about it all the time and we have a blast thinking through how we can help creators succeed.
Um, you know, there's kind of an incentive misalignment
problem with current NFT marketplaces where creators get more royalties based on how much
churn their community has. And I think that's backwards. I think you want people to buy into
your community and stay in your community forever. Uh, you know, why would you want people to
intentionally leave, leave your community? And so, yeah, thinking through new, um, new revenue
models for creators, new ways to help creators, uh, grow and, and monetize their work that doesn't,
that doesn't involve kind of the hypey speculative nature of current NFT marketplaces.
Well, now that, that right there is just a bold vision in and of itself. Um, we're so,
so creators who are hearing about bionic for the first time today, uh, or, or they're hearing that
you guys are launching on Wednesday, what should they do if they want to, um, throw their hat in
the ring and get more information? Yeah, at this point, probably just DM me. Um, I've been DMing
with probably 20 or so creators over the last couple of days. Um, the, the bionic launch pad isn't,
uh, going to be released, um, on Wednesday. Wednesday will just be marketplace. Um, but we do have
launch pad basically done, you know, it, it'll be our next big, big release after marketplace.
Um, and so what we're doing right now is we are going to partner with some creators to do some,
um, I don't know, I'll call it maybe a free mint program of sorts, which essentially just means that
when new users join bionic, we want to be able to give them kind of a, uh, introduction, welcome,
um, uh, airdrop of sorts, um, from, uh, creators in, in the ecosystem, whether they're from the ICP
ecosystem or from the ordinals ecosystem or even other ecosystems. Um, just being able to give the
creators additional exposure by, you know, giving, giving away ordinals for free to, to new bionic
users. Um, but it's also, you know, part onboarding, like we want to make it really, really easy.
I wanted to say more reallys there, but I think you get the point with two reallys, uh, really,
really easy to onboard to bionic and have things to do, um, right from the beginning, like click the
button, log in with Google and you're ready to go. You know, you have a couple of interesting
ordinals from some of the creators that we've partnered with, um, in this kind of free mint
program and the creators get additional exposure from the new users and the new users get exposure
to new creators and they can then, you know, trade immediately from, from the get go. So, uh, that's
currently what, what we're working on. We have a couple of creators that, that we're working with.
Um, and yeah, I think that that will be a kind of interesting first step. So if that's interesting
to you at all, as a creator, definitely DM me, um, and let's chat. Uh, and then, you know,
further on, uh, down the road, you know, two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, I'm, I'm not sure exactly,
uh, how much work there is to get Launchpad out, but we're, we're very close. Um, and once Launchpad
is out, we'll have a lot of, um, additional flexibility around how we can support creators.
Whether it's a free claim, uh, you know, give, give creators their own kind of page to do,
to do giveaways, um, or airdrops, or whether it's like a fully functional launch where you
actually want people to come in and pay Bitcoin or rather, um, CKBTC for, for ordinals. Um, our,
our Launchpad will be fairly innovative in that we're using a concept called reserved ordinals.
Reserved ordinals are, you, you can think about them like, uh, off chain, meaning off of Bitcoin,
um, on, on ICP, off, off chain tokens representing the right to inscribe.
So it benefits creators because you don't have to inscribe in a high Bitcoin fee environment.
It also benefits users because users don't have to pay or, you know, wait for their inscriptions to
come through in a high fee environment. Um, but it tokenizes the, the right to inscribe and then
users can at a later, uh, time when fees are lower than they can go in and, and actually inscribe the
artwork. So, um, this reserved ordinals model, I think will work really well for creators and users,
offer them a lot more flexibility, um, around, uh, kind of asynchronous inscribing. And so that,
that is also part of our Launchpad, um, you know, coming out in the next, next couple of weeks ish.
That's awesome. And, and, uh, and an innovative approach to the, um, uh, the fee problem, but also it,
it again, adds this level of innovative playground where creators can, and users can kind of like
play around with, do they want to keep, keep their reserve token or do they want to actually go through
the process of inscribing and, and maybe there's some cool things you can play around with there
in terms of, um, so you mentioned how Bionic, um, you know, it's straddling Bitcoin and ICP.
What is the, like the, uh, unit of account or the, um, the medium of exchange, or is it the same thing
for within Bionic or, or how are you guys approaching that? Do you mean like currency?
Yeah. Yeah. What's your currency, I guess is what I'm asking.
Yeah. So to interact with things on the ICP side, you'll need CKBTC and to interact with things on the
Bitcoin side, you'll need BTC. So those are the only two tokens that you can hold in your Bionic wallet.
Those are the only tokens supported, uh, CKBTC and BTC. You know, if you're going to inscribe to
Bitcoin, then you need Bitcoin to pay the transaction fee. But if you're going to, you know, uh, purchase
an ordinal in the marketplace, well, everything is on, everything on the marketplace is wrapped.
So you would need CKBTC in order to purchase that. Um, so yeah, those are, those are the two main,
main tokens, the only two tokens. How easy will it be to go between CKBTC and BTC within the Bionic
app? Yeah, there's just a really easy single button convert. Um, you just say, I want to convert
Bitcoin to CKBTC. Um, going from Bitcoin to CKBTC currently takes 13 confirmations. Um, we can
probably bring that down over time, but this is, you know, for greater security. Uh, so you're going
to wait probably two hours ish for that wrapping process to go from CKBTC back to BTC. Uh, it's much
faster and is probably only, you really only need a single confirmation, but those transactions are
batched and they are batched every five to 10 minutes. So you'll wait probably, uh, 10 minutes
before your transaction is actually broadcasted going to your destination Bitcoin address. So
you can unwrap whenever you want. Um, you don't need any kind of gas token, uh, in order to wrap,
uh, it's really easy. You just need Bitcoin. So. But I think the important thing is you can do,
you can do that within the app, right? You don't have to leave. Okay. Awesome. Yeah. There's just a
really nice convert button. You can go either direction whenever you want. Yep. Awesome. Awesome. Um,
well, if anyone else has any questions, I saw we had Ali up here, but, uh, it looks like Ali just
dropped off. Um, anyone else? Yeah. Teo. So, uh, forgive my ignorance, but, uh, I have a question
about the working mechanism of the ordinals. Uh, I, I played with it, uh, uh, for some time. And what I
understand is you need, uh, more than one Satoshi's to make an inscription. I think it was like 300
something Satoshi's, right? Uh, maybe 500. I can't, uh, remember exactly, but, uh, the, the thing is,
uh, why can't we, uh, do it on just one Satoshi? Because, uh, if this ordinals, uh, take off and, uh,
get, start being used a lot, uh, for NFTs and for, uh, maybe, uh, real world tokens, tokenization,
like my car title, my home title, et cetera. Uh, the number of Satoshi's available on the Bitcoin
network is, uh, several of orders of magnitude less, uh, than, uh, the accounts, the wallets
that can be created with 12 seed words. And, uh, on top of that, if we have to use like hundreds
of Satoshi's for a single inscription, uh, it's actually limits the number of inscriptions that
can be done on the Bitcoin network. Uh, was there a technical reason that this, uh, number was
just choose and, uh, can it be upgrade later to just use one Satoshi for one inscription?
Yeah, this is a great question. There's currently a dust limit. Uh, the dust limit on Bitcoin specifies
that you cannot have, uh, a UTXO with an amount that is smaller than the dust limit. And the dust
limits currently, I think around 330 Satoshi's, which is why you see a lot of 331 or 333
Um, I think Unisat uses 546. Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's basically just a dust limit on,
on Bitcoin and that's to prevent, um, there, there are ways where you can, uh, it's essentially,
you could take, um, Bitcoin that's been tainted for some reason as part of a transaction and you
could just send a whole bunch of Bitcoin to a whole bunch of people tainting all of their wallet
addresses. So it's trying to prevent these kinds of dust attacks. Uh, so I don't know. I mean,
it could be changed in the future. I don't, I don't necessarily see it happening anytime soon,
but I definitely understand the, the dilemma here. Thank you.
Yeah, that's great. Um, and I, I can't imagine Satoshi was ever thinking through the fact that,
hey, maybe we want to be able to prevent, uh, transactions into a wallet, uh, for that exact
reason. It's kind of a crazy, uh, use case where you have this idea of tainted Bitcoin and, and that
somebody would actually want it, uh, sent into their wallet. Um, I guess not, not too much on different
than when, um, uh, tornado cash was, was shut down and, or, or was in the process of being shut down.
And somebody sent a lot of high profile wallets, uh, um, some ETH through tornado cash, just to,
just to make a point, I guess. Um, well, let's see, I think we're kind of wrapping up here. Uh,
Bob and Steve, what, what, what closing thoughts do you guys have?
Easy. You want to take it first?
Sure. Uh, first, I mean, thank you again for, for having us up, you know, always,
always happy to, to come up and chat. Um, I'll say if you're, uh, if you're a creator or collector,
you know, definitely, uh, you know, follow Bob me bionic market, um, you know, a lot of updates
coming in the next week. Um, if you're interested in launching a collection, you know, again, reach
out to either of us, you know, more than happy to talk about how it might work, you know, how you can
get involved and what to expect. Um, we're, you know, really excited for that. And then lastly,
once you're, you know, on the platform, if you have, you know, feedback, um, we'll, we'll set up
some, maybe an official feedback channel or something, but, you know, feel free to tweet at
us or, or send a message with, you know, any, any thoughts or maybe something you're interested in,
you know, we're, we're definitely, um, going to be looking for, um, for feedback on how to improve
the platform and, and, you know, what people, what people want. Uh, but yeah, thanks. Thanks again.
Yeah, I think, um, I think easy, easy nailed it. Um, if you're, if you're a creator, um, whether you're
on the ICP side or a different chain or in the Ordinal's ecosystem and, you know, you're interested
in the work that we're, uh, trying to do here on Bionic, definitely reach out. Um, we're currently
in the process of, um, working with creators, trying to put together kind of a early access,
uh, think tank of sorts, um, so that we can just get feedback from creators to help build features
that are going to benefit creators and help them build successful web through businesses.
Um, so if that's, if that's at all interesting to you, definitely reach out and let's, let's chat.
Um, beyond that, uh, like Kyle was saying earlier, and like we announced earlier, Bionic is launching
on Wednesday. Uh, it feels kind of surreal to say that because it's been in the works for months and
months and months at this point. Uh, but we're very, very excited to, you know, just playing around
on the platform. It feels, uh, you know, feels nice, feels fast, feels easy to use. Um, and so
being able to transact ordinals in this way is, uh, really different than, than current user experiences
built using, you know, PSPTs on, on Bitcoin 01. Um, obviously, you know, there are additional
trust assumptions here, um, in building on a Bitcoin side chain, but, you know, we're doing it for,
for the user experience. And, uh, so yeah, we're, we're really excited for the launch coming up
on Wednesday.
Awesome. Awesome. I really appreciate your, both of your time. Uh, easy. I, I, I, I apologize.
I've been calling you Steve this whole time. I now realize easy is your first name, Steve's your last
name. So from now on, it's Mr. Steve, uh, or Mr. Easy, depending on how casual we want to be.
Um, ladies and gentlemen, uh, this was another episode of multi-chain Mondays. You heard it here
that Bionic is launching on Wednesday. Uh, I hope you have learned that ordinals is one of the more
exciting things going on in, in crypto, um, right now. And, and it's picking up more and more steam
and Bionic is going to be a major player in that. So keep your eyes peeled on Wednesday, make sure you
get signed up. Bob dropped a lot of great alpha in here. Uh, and I hope to see you guys next week as we
talk with Bitfinity and my new drivers from Dfinity going over just all the use cases that, uh, we can
have by uniting the Bitcoin and Ethereum blockchains. And, um, until then I, I bid you guys
farewell and best wishes to everyone.
