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Music and the MOB
Recorded: Sept. 15, 2025 Duration: 2:03:54Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored the intersection of music and technology, highlighting trends in AI-generated music, the launch of Open Wave's artist-friendly platform, and the implications of Spotify's new privacy policies. The conversation also touched on the challenges artists face in monetizing their work in an evolving digital landscape.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. hey everyone oh gosh hey everyone happy monday happy monday hey james how are you happy monday
doing well thank you happy monday happy monday um we got a lot of music stuff to talk about today
thanks for everybody um thanks everybody for tapping in, if you want to come up on stage, there's only a few of us in here today right now. Hopefully it'll fill
up. If you could do me a favor, go ahead and, um, tap that little button on the bottom of your
screen, the little like, like a bubble button and give it a like comment and retweet. Um, that would
be really great. And, uh, we can get this room filled up and get some people talking about music news and what's going on this week.
Like, there was a lot of shit that happened last week.
So I kind of want to go through it.
Also, there's like a big development on Spotify that I want to talk about that's going to affect a lot of people, I think,
in the future. And it has to do with AI and shit like that, too. And I know we like talking about
that because we always end up talking about that for like an hour in this room. But I know it's
kind of like a... We can't get away from it at this point. But let's go through the major music
news of the week. The Mercury Prize of 2025 nominees were announced.
If you don't know what the Mercury Prize is, it's basically kind of like a sub-prize in Europe, like in the UK and stuff like that.
And it's not like just for pop or just for rock.
It's kind of like all across board.
And they give away some money.
So, um, I think that who won it the first year is like a, it was a band or something like that,
that, that won it. Primal scream. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was the first year that they
did it. They, they tend to go for like, you know, not the mainstream ones, but the ones that are
kind of like up and coming, interesting bands or pop stars or somebody that's got something different going on,
which is why I even am mentioning this in the major music news. So that's pretty cool.
Wolf Alice is the first act to be nominated for all of their first four records, which is kind of interesting.
Some of the big names that got nominated this year,
Pulp, Wolfalis, CMAT, FKA, Twigs.
And if you don't know FKA, Twigs, very interesting artists.
Definitely check her out.
Sam Fender among the nominees.
And they're all like British people, like whatever.
It's that British people thing.
So another big thing, Hilary Duff returns after a decade.
Like if you remember Hilary Duff returns after a decade.
Like if you remember Hilary Duff, what was it?
What was that show she was on?
Oh, my God.
It was something Disney Channel, but I'll be damned if I can remember.
Yeah, she's a Disney chick.
Oh, God.
Like she played two characters, like the pop star and herself.
No, no, no.
That was Miley Cyrus.
Oh, wait.
That wasn't her?
Who was Hilary Duff?
She was in another Disney Channel show. I can't remember. Anyway, but she's returning after a decade of taking a break off of music. Lizzie McGuire. Lizzie McGuire. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Lizzie McGuire. And she went ahead. She did that. She did
a lot of acting. She's been in a lot of really great TV shows.
How I Met Your Father, I think, was one of them that I really liked.
She's in that show Younger, which was great.
She's been in a lot of different TV shows, but she's coming back to the music game after
10 years, which is quite interesting.
She's also releasing a docuseries that will chronicle her journey, balancing music family,
and her first live performance in over a decade.
Over a decade.
Enya's longtime producer, Nikki Ryan, passes away.
If you remember Enya or you knew about Enya, Enya's kind of like some chill-out music.
Pretty big in, what was it, the 90s, I guess it was?
90s, 2000s?
Early mid-90s.
Yeah, okay. pretty big in what was it the 90s i guess it was 90s 2000s early mid 90s yeah okay um tributes are pouring in for ryan was key to ennio's signature sound working with her on many acclaimed albums
yeah he kind of like built her so like you know when and when the people around you pass away as
an artist it's you have to like tip your hat because like i know that if you guys know the
pretty reckless um a few years ago do you remember this james when if you guys know the pretty reckless, um, a few years ago, do you
remember this James, when the, um, producer of the pretty reckless died in that car accident?
No, I hadn't heard that one.
Oh yeah.
Like he, he passed away.
Like it was just, it was random because he's like, he was like 30 something and like great
guy.
I met him once in the studio.
Um, and he, he literally built that sound for her.
Like he, he was the reason why she went from like singing kind of like poppy rock songs that were
kind of like whatever to like actually having a sound and he built it. And then she's been trying
to like kind of recapture those moments like ever since, um, I think she's getting there, but,
but yeah, so whenever like
a producer dies in the timeline like that it's kind of a big deal so um so yeah that's something
to say about that um uh here okay I'm gonna totally butcher this name if you know how to say
it but um Kareem Leon announces Vegas Residency. So it's a Latin artist.
I don't know Latin artists very well, so please forgive me if I totally butcher all this.
I think it was Karine Leone.
Karine.
Okay, Karine Leone.
The Latin artist will perform three nights at the Sphere in Vegas, September 11th through the 13th.
So you're into Latin artists.
You might want to check that out.
He's making history as the first Latinx headliner at the
Sphere for residency. So that's kind of a big deal. Like, you know, diversity, always a big
deal. So that's pretty cool that they're doing that with the Sphere. Christopher Lennart,
Theodore Shapiro and others win at the 2025 Creative Arts Emmys. L leonards won for outstanding original music and lyrics let's
put the christ back into christmas from the boys if you remember that song from the boys shapiro
won for outstanding musical composition for a series for severance both of these are great
series the boys and severance if you haven't watched them check them out um kendrick lamar
also won his second emmy for music direction for the Apple
music Superbowl, um, LAX, uh, halftime show 59 59. Yeah. I don't know those numbers.
So, uh, yeah. Um, in music and technique. So the, so that's kind of like what's going on in,
in the major music news over the last week, music and tech news, there's been a lot of music and tech news that's actually really interesting. One of the biggest
ones that's interesting to me, James, and maybe you'll have something to say on this, is Berkeley's
new innovation lab for music and tech. So they announced Beatle. Berkeley has launched for
the emerging artistic technology lab, Beatle, which is kind of funny,
to bring together artists, technologies,
and entrepreneurs.
It focuses on AI, machine learning,
immersive, interactive experience,
design, new interfaces, et cetera.
I think that's brilliant.
I think we need a place where people go
to immerse themselves in tech and music
because that's the future.
I mean, what do you think about that?
Well, it's, he's going to be somebody's devil because it dovetails into another point you're
about to bring up about the amount of AI generated music on Deezer.
Oh yeah.
This man is somebody's Lucifer.
Do you want to lose your shit?
Do you guys really want to lose your shit about this?
Where is that Deezer thing? Okay. It's your number four it's number four okay music listen to this shit
music radar reports that deezer is now seeing over 30 000 fully ai generated tracks daily
daily okay not you know like every week two weeks, daily motherfuckers daily.
So talk about oversaturation and not being able to find your niche anymore. Like this shit's hard.
Like, I don't know. That is ludicrous. It's ludicrous. It's, it's, it's beyond ludicrous.
Um, but you can't stop the snowball from rolling down the hill.
Just a reminder, you guys, if you're in the room, you want to come up on stage, please just raise your hand and come up on stage.
You can talk about any of these topics with us.
We'd love to have you up.
Also, lower right-hand corner, there's that speech bubble.
Just tap it.
Give it a like, comment, retweet, get some people in this room.
Let's talk about some of these things that are going on.
Open Wave launches direct-to-fan platform, artist-friendly model. OpenWave is building a platform aiming to give artists more control and revenue. Selling tickets, merch, direct fan
engagement while integrating AI tools to assist creatives. Criticism of current streaming business
model, new artists struggle to earn meaningful income via major streaming
platforms.
That kind of like, you know, made them go, go, go this direction.
And I mean, we all know that's just been the case for years and years now.
So I don't think that's anything very new, but if you haven't tried open wave or looked
into it, you might want to look into it if you're an artist in the room.
The big, the big thing, the big fucking elephant in the room i'm gonna get to right now
is the spotify privacy policy changes and transparency around data and ai training
um this is huge this is like a really huge huge thing so i'm gonna i'm gonna go down
do you want to talk about any of these other things before I jump into that, James?
You take the lead.
I want to hear this one, too, because I still have my Spotify account.
So this is going to I'm directing the line of fire here.
Ready for this?
OK, so I don't know if you guys read through these terms and agreements, but I kind of did a deep dive into what Spotify is doing now.
It's interesting because at first I was kind of like, oh, maybe they're for us. But then I was like, yeah, maybe not.
So, um, Spotify's updated terms.
Okay.
As of August, 2025, Spotify has explicitly prohibited third parties from using Spotify
service content to train machine learning or AI models.
That sounds good, right?
Well, well, well, their developer policy,
some worry, bans using the Spotify platform
or any Spotify content for training an AI model.
So you can't take it outside and trade your AI model.
That's banned, right?
But, and you can't scrape the data
and pull the tracks and da-da-da-da.
But what they fail to say right there
is that they might be using it internally for what Spotify is trying to do with their AI because you upload it to them internally.
They have the rights to do that.
That's that's the caveat that we don't know. outside generation of AI, we are feeding the internal generation of AI and kind of like,
you know, making Spotify a little bit more powerful because guess what? Everybody uploads
to Spotify. Even though we're all like, oh, we hate Spotify. We don't want to be on there and
stuff like that. Like I, as a touring rock musician have to be on there. Like you, it's, it's like, it's, it's literally how we get booked. Like,
I'm not even kidding. They are looking at your, they're like, Oh, well, you don't have this many
plays on this song. So it's not going to go to radio. Oh, like this, like it's literally,
I get this every day, all day. Like it's, it's, it's a whole fucking thing. And it's, it's a
plague in the industry, but it is what it is. So sometimes you can't fight City Hall, but sometimes you can.
So anyway, let me go through all this.
Spotify's first party use of data machine learning.
Spotify's updated privacy policy clarifies that Spotify can and does use personal data
to train its internal machine learning, recommendation systems, AI, DJ,
personalized playlists, et cetera. So if you think they're not using it internally, you are wrong.
They definitely are. And your behavior on Spotify can feed into Spotify's models.
But this is internal usage only, not external or publicly reusable models.
There's actually one caveat there that I noticed.
They're not training it to make music,
which may or may not make this.
I see what they're doing.
They want to assign the direct people in certain directions.
And I get that,
but they're not actually using it to compete with the artists.
It's kind of key compared,
because I think that's what they really wanted to ban,
that they're out with their external AI training.
Right.
At least my surface opinion,
surface review.
Yeah.
I mean,
they still are using your data.
They are data mining.
They are kind of doing that internally,
but they're,
they're not feeding the outside AI boss is what you're saying.
But like this doesn't stop them from starting an internal remix thing with
Spotify where,
whereas they can like do what what they
want and use your music you know what i'm saying like yeah i think it's about like it's about
exposure that they it gives them the power to to manipulate exposure and that's kind of
skeevy but yeah well that's that comes into like that falls into one of the categories that's
really big in the music business right now is that how do you, you know, find your audience? Like, it's just, it's really fucking dense. And you have Deezer
with 30,000 AI tracks every day being uploaded. How the fuck are you going to find an audience?
So anyway, that's neither here nor there, but it is either here nor there. So let's go user
content license and user uploaded content. Spotify's terms grant them a broad license over user content. You upload
playlist descriptions, cover arts, comments, etc., including the ability
to create derivative works, modify, reproduce,
etc. Some of this enables Spotify to use that content in their
own features. What do you think about that?
See, that kind of goes back on everything that we were kind of saying, right?
Right.
Because I'm looking at their example, like the cover images and comment.
It's like, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a little bit, it's a little bit skeevy.
I'm telling you right now.
It's like, it's like, they're like, no, we really want to help you, but we don't really
want to help you, but we don't really want to help you. So we really want to help ourselves and then pretend like we're
helping you. However, this license does not necessarily equate to permission for external
AI training. Again, they don't want to do anything external, um, or your, um, your uploaded music.
Um, if by that we mean tracks, distributed works to be used as training data by others
or by Spotify for external models. So they're not going to take your shit,
train their AI and then launch, you know, spot a full and like do it over there. Like,
you know, they're not going to like, they're not going to do it like that. So that's good,
I guess. Right. Is that like a good thing? It's I see what like it's I see what they're I see what they're
up to and it's more about who they're marketing and who they're presenting and it's a kind of
guiding keep their space they're so piping people you it's they're they're kind of aiming people in
a direction based on their pat on their behavior patterns it's it's mark it's really it's marketing
it's just that it's the what facebook's
been doing for years and years and years has taken to the next level with ai right as well
as any it's just i guess it's just making it even more targeting targeted music ads being even more
efficient so you don't think that this is like this isn't really a direct attack on music per
se it's more just like a marketing tactic that is going to hopefully spread them even more like larger. This is like, this is what the studios were doing with artists
and just written, written large and massively more efficient. Okay. So, okay. So, you know,
maybe it is what it is. Um, uploading AI generated music content you own according to Spotify's
community artist distribution terms you can
upload ai generated music as long as you hold the rights to the content i.e that it's legal you own
or have licensed all components etc um that means you are responsible for ensuring no infringement
but that doesn't mean that by uploading, you are automatically opting in
to having Spotify or others use it as training data. So, I mean, for people that generate all
this AI music, I guess that's good for them because they can still upload as long as they
have the rights, correct? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, welcome to the Deezer 30,000 tracks a
day of AI music now being uploaded that's that's that's gonna increase
like tenfold over the next like couple of months I believe well there's another
one you brought up to about Coda which is there was a they're kind of the exact
opposite end of the spectrum yeah code, Coda is an interesting platform. So Coda promises fair compensation for artists, like with algorithmic discovery from the crowd, not the cloud sort of situation.
or, you know, listening to and, and, uh, and being a little bit more prone towards the artists and
not, not so much for like propaganda or, you know, or advertisement sort of like usage sort of thing.
And I don't know how they're going to prevent bots or anything. I mean, maybe they have like
the craziest dev on board, but like these things just keep on manufacturing themselves. I mean, there's such a there's such a, you know, a demand for that. And most of like, you know, sorry, Alicia, I was going to get to you in a second, but I saw your hand up. But, you know, they she she left. But but they you know, I think that they I don't think they can stop that. So, I mean, I like that they want that premise to kind of, like, remain true.
But how feasible do you think that really is?
Well, I don't know that they're going to be able to stop it so much.
What they're doing is they're basically giving people who go and subscribe to their platform the the ability to say, to look specifically for actual artists.
Like if I were to go on this platform and sign up an account and I were to
listen to your music, apparently there's a way for me to specifically say,
Hey,
I want September morning to receive a specific fraction of my income of what
I'm paying you for the service.
They have, you can, they can,
you can deliberately direct it at a specific artist.
Oh really? That's amazing's amazing yeah that's good
i mean that could actually be very powerful um but again i could see a caveat to that of how
people could train a bot or something to be a listener and then like basically hose the system
and give all the money to set up i mean if, if an artist did this, you know, and like, you know,
you know what I'm saying? They could upload a bunch of AI music, right?
Put a bunch of bots into the system,
claim all of the plays towards that quote unquote AI artist and then rig
the system. So they make money. I mean, is that possible? I mean,
it looks like it would be like, that's, I don't know.
Yeah, I think they're trying to play into it mostly to,
they're trying to present themselves as the anti-Spotify.
Right.
And I think they're going to play that angle for a bit
and then kind of see where it goes.
I mean, with AI music, yeah,
it's obviously very difficult to filter this crap.
You can't stop it from coming in, maybe,
but I guess they need their own eye to flag you know track and flag this crap yeah i just i mean it's just it's kind of like you know you you plug the hole and then two more appear or like
you know you cut the head of the dragon and like two more like hydra or something like that
yeah it's very that cristiano how you doing you doing, man? Nice to have you.
Hail Hydra.
Hail Hydra.
What?
I'm glad you got that reference.
I'm doing good.
I want to reinstate the petition to change Spotify's name to Botify.
Yes.
Because it's going to be all robots listening.
And Beezer.
And Beezer.
Like, not Beezer, but Beezer.
Yeah, we're going to be just totally irrelevant.
They're going to be like, we don't need you.
We figured this thing out.
I know.
Bots listening to bots, and the whole thing generates money somehow.
Dude, I'm kind of like, why do I even need my producer anymore?
I'm just going to go on, like, some.
Well, the system would work if you think about it.
Because if there's a bunch of AI musicians now, right?
And those are just people being like, oh, I'm going to fuck over the musicians and create an AI artist and fuck them.
They will dump money into that endeavor
because they consider it a business or whatever
for probably a couple of years.
So they'll be the ones powering the bots
and then they'll just be giving that money
directly to Spotify and Spotify will be like,
this is great.
We found a way to charge the artists fucking,
which they always were, right?
They're always charging the artists
because the idea was like you had to pay
to get on the different playlists. And I don't know if you see what's happening now, but they're always charging the artist because the idea was like you had to pay to get on the different playlists and i don't know if you see what's happening now but they're uh
speaking of the mob they're actually um you're they're bringing up rico charges on iheart radio
and a bunch of different radio stations all across the country for a payola scandal which has been
going on since the 90s and they were like no no no we handled it and it's like no you didn't handle
you started paying off the people that were fucking watchdogs.
So they figured that out.
And now they're hitting them with RICO charges.
And RICO charges is racketeering, for those of you who don't know, were created to arrest
a bunch of Italians.
And they called them the mob.
And they said, hey, these Italians are not paying taxes on all this money that they're
making.
And so they created a thing called RICO charges.
Well, that's laughable to me.
Because if you look at symbolic,
isn't it,
isn't it poetic?
Like that the Rico charges are going to the actual office.
I'll tell you why it's so ridiculous.
so when the music business started,
like with like fucking Frank Sinatra in Vegas,
Frank Sinatra was nothing,
nothing until the mob backed him in Vegas and made him.
The industry was way better when the Italian mob ran it.
Yeah, the Italian mob ran it.
Now that the creepy mafia ran it.
It's better than whatever mob is running it right now.
It's all corporations now.
That's right.
Nobody makes any money but the corporations.
Well, now to be in it, you have to be blackmailed.
You have to go to something and be blackmailed.
They have to have photos of you doing some crazy shit that would get you canceled from
society.
And then you're part of the new mafia.
And it's like, it's like the creepy, weird mafia.
You know what I mean?
Where everyone who's involved is like a fucking deviant.
It's like the Scientology mafia.
I swear to God.
It's kind of worse, honestly.
Like I've hung out with Scientologists and I've hung out with people in the music industry
and the Scientologists never tried to fuck my mouth.
I mean, okay. You know. I never met Tom Cruise, so I don't know. He's going to sue the show.
Tom Cruise, let's not go down that rabbit hole. That is some wild, wild, wild.
Yeah, that's punching down. We shouldn't punch down. Yeah, we should not do that. But yeah, so anyway, so just a little bit more about this and then we'll get off this topic.
Updated terms, developer policy. We talked about the AI model, the training,
feeding and external AI. This is disallowed. We talked about all of that.
What is unclear still under debate? Okay. This is kind of the caveat of all this crap.
Hey, Nathan, I see you in the room.
I see a lot of people.
Hey, Innovative.
Terry, it's good to see you.
Allie, I haven't talked to you in a minute.
I got to call you.
There's a lot of people in the room, William.
Everybody, thank you so much for joining us.
If you can hit that little speech button at the bottom, give us a like, comment, retweet on the space.
It really does help the algorithm.
What is unclear is still under debate.
Okay, so Spotify themselves will or already do use uploaded tracks
to train their internal AI beyond recommendation.
If, yes, whether that use is disclosed, compensated, et cetera,
current public documentation focuses mostly on user data,
not explicitly on uploaded track audio content being used to train internal models. So, I mean,
we're hoping that that's the case, but it's unclear whether Spotify's terms or user content
could legally permit Spotify to incorporate that content into future AI systems,
generative or synthetic features, particularly for quote unquote derivative works of your content
that you've uploaded. The license is broad, but derivative works is vague and could cover a lot
depending on how Spotify defines and uses it. But again, there's no firm public evidence that this has happened yet, but it's in there.
It could.
So whether there is or will be an opt out choice for artists to prevent their uploaded
music from being used for Spotify's internal model training, that would be great.
But many artists privacy advocates want more transparency around
that. So it would be kind of nice to be able to opt out of that crap, but I doubt they're
going to give you that choice. No, I don't see that happening. Yeah, me neither. I don't think
that's how the world works. You know, we're almost wondering if Spotify might end up facing antitrust situations.
Because the power this company has over the music industry now is just absolutely ludicrous.
Well, it's almost like a monopoly, but it isn't because they have Apple Music and Tidal and stuff like that.
Yeah, but they're still going after, they still hammered Google.
And even now there's Bing and whomever else out there.
They still go after Microsoft because God knows nobody else has an operating system.
There are still avenues with which to approach an antitrust prosecution against them if somebody were to step up and actually do it.
I don't see that happening anytime soon, but the option's out there in a more civilized era.
Yeah.
Hey, Nathan. They say that if something's free, that you're the product,
right? Yeah, exactly. We are the product, let's be real.
Yeah, your data is the product. Nathan, it's good to have you on stage. Welcome, welcome.
Hey, Em, how's it going? How's it going,
my friend? How's it going? What do you think about it?
Do you have any thoughts on this?
I think eventually I'm just going to keep being nice to the robots so when the
uprise happens, they will take good care of me.
You will be their pet.
You will be their pet.
I will be safe.
I will be safe.
They'll put you on a list.
I will be like, I said thank you,
and you're welcome every time I use ChatCPT and Alexis.
I do too, because I'm scared, you guys.
Do not, do not, do not come at me.
No, I'm actually getting ready for another fashion show,
but I just wanted to come up and say,
you're amazing, Em.
Keep it up.
Stay positive.
And keep pushing forward. Yeah yeah keep calm and carry on thank you Nathan fashion week I wish
it was there it looks like a great time all my friends are having a great time
so I hope you're I will call I will call you later enjoy your space yeah send me
pictures of stuff that you think I'd look good in. I love you.
Which is pretty much everything?
Okay.
Bye, Em.
The ways you look phenomenal.
I mean, what are you talking about?
Bye, Nathan.
Good to have you up here.
Anyway, but yeah, so I don't know, guys.
So that's kind of like what's on the docket today as far as music news is concerned.
If you guys don't want to talk about any of this shit, like we can talk about other things.
I kind of wanted to talk about the streaming shit that's going on in Web3.
And maybe if there's a play for musicians in this way or what we even think about that. Because I know launching a coin is not the best thing to do, maybe.
But it is really hot right now.
And there are a lot of Web2 people coming in to this side of crypto because of these streams.
So I think that, I don't know, there might be a play there.
What do you think about that christiano
i mean i think i watched someone die on pump fun yesterday so it's like i think that's getting
shut yeah it's getting shut down braz was lighting off fireworks in his house and i was watching that
stream and i was like this motherfucker's crazy and like he was just breathing in toxic smoke and
now he's dead and so it's like they're gonna shut that down real fast yeah i saw another stream
yeah i saw another stream dude was running from the cops like it was like super wild so like
while alan pretends he's like oh this is going to be for creators and they're going to do
like i promise you like the the fortnight streams people weren't watching these are the biggest
fortnight streamers in the world going live yesterday like they're bringing in a ton of
people to try but it's just like the things that get the most views are the psychotic people who do crazy stuff to try to get their
market yeah yeah and it was just that and it's like instantly it's been on for like what like
a few days really popular again and popping and the be dying and it's just like
i think yeah no the coin's not the way i think with streaming um i'm working on something right now that's like yeah I'm doing it for my own project for the
Yeti mob but like then we were like hey why don't we when we get this MVP
figured out and this tech figured out let's launch it as you know mob radio so
we're gonna launch it like where it's streaming and you can listen to the
music but you have to own the music NFTs and so if you own the music NFTs it
unlocks those songs from the database.
And then, you know, so you can see them grayed out and stuff,
and you click them, and it's like,
hey, you can't buy this unless you own this musician's NFT of this.
And then you get it.
So it'll allow us, you know, if you release,
like if you've released your music NFTs as singles,
you'd be able to say, hey, here's the single,
here's the demo, here's a couple alternate mixes, you know, a remix and a track, like the way we used to do EPs.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then if you do an album, it's like, you know, you get the nft for the album, right?
Like with the the yeti nft is gonna be an album nessie's open minds. That's an album like yeah moons out an album
Right, so it's like your guys is one is an album, right? Your nft is an album
So it would be like you get the title track for free on our page
But then like, you know, if you get the nft you get the entire album and being
able to like buy it there i think in the player is going to be like huge yeah and i wouldn't have
been able to do this without vibe coding it just wouldn't have been feasible for us to get the
funds together to you know so you know i've wanted to do this for a while so now i'm like oh yeah we
can actually do it yeah and then i want to make it like modular so it's like if i want to partner
with any other musicians they can put their stuff on. They can say, hey, integrate my music NFTs and here's the tracks I want them to unlock and stuff.
And it's like it kind of gives us like a utility that everyone can add to their project.
Even if you're not a music project, you could be like, hey, you know, our music NFTs unlock these songs.
Right, right. Yeah. I mean, anything that builds in the space for music, I think, is a really good thing.
Tech, what's up? Welcome to the space. Thanks for coming on.
How's it going?
Thank you for having me up.
Yeah.
I was going to say that I believe there is some structure that musicians can do.
And this is something I've seen that's been going on for about 10 years now that started on YouTube.
Not familiar if you know about the nerdcore community but that was actually created
originally in the pokemon community with pokemon raps and some of those artists go to other
streamers events like um dreamcom over in texas with rdc and they pay and get paid to make beats
and stuff for other artists i'm actually starting to see that a lot in Web3 now because four years ago, people really didn't like music NFTs or a lot of the artists.
And now there are people actually have music and musical guests and stuff for their spaces now.
And music NFTs are like really starting to grow, too.
really starting to grow too. So I believe the structure now is providing services for the
people that want it here, whether you're doing an NFT or not. So you may be able to do a coin
if you're entertaining streamer, like you said, but you may not necessarily actually have to go
that route. You can charge people for your services. Like even with some of the projects
here, I'm a newer artist. I've been doing this
less than a year now. And I've been paid to make some music where people have paid me crypto to
make the music for them. And it was custom songs for them. So those are literally their songs.
They can use it for social media, whatever they want. Another platform complains. I have the
paperwork showing that I have to write to it. It's almost like licensing. Yeah, exactly.
So there's a lot of opportunity growing like that here in web three that I see
for music. And I think that's where we're going to go.
Yeah. I mean, just, just to remind you guys, I did a,
I did a song for OniForce back in the day.
So when NFTs were popping off in 2021,
there was a big brand called OniForce and they were huge.
And then Henry took them over,
who's big in the space, and he invited me to write their theme song. So I wrote a song called Rise,
which did really well. It sold out on Gala Music as an NFT and it also was licensed to Oniforce
and they've been using it in different sort of product placements that they've been doing. And it's become kind of their go-to song to proliferate their IP.
So that's pretty exciting.
So I think there's a lot of innovation around using our music for different projects in the space.
I do like that idea.
James, you were going to say something?
No, no, no. I'm good. I do like that idea. James, you were going to say something?
No, no, no. I'm good.
I couldn't agree more.
I was impressed they sold out like that. Now they're using it. I was impressed.
I need to hear that song, by the way.
That sounds badass.
Wait, you did? You've never heard it?
What?
I guess I have now because I've seen the promos and stuff.
Check it out. It is on Spotify.
Oh, God. It is on Apple Music
or Tidal or anything like that. It is on Spotify. Oh, God. It is on Apple Music or Tidal or anything like that.
It is also on Gala, too.
So you can definitely check it out.
I'll check it out everywhere with Spotify.
Yeah, check it out everywhere with Spotify.
I agree with the tech.
I love the tech.
We love the tech.
Shout out to the tech.
Good to meet you, man.
We should definitely follow you.
I already follow you.
We should follow each other because, yeah, I'm in this nerdcore space.
And I consider, like, a lot of the hip hop. Obviously obviously we do a lot of stuff that's not about Web3, but every time we're rapping about Web3, I consider that nerdcore.
And I was friends with Tim Deleghetto and Wax and all those, and Watsky and all those dudes back in the day, because I've been a YouTuber for a long ass time.
So I totally know what you're talking about with the nerdcore scene, and I think that that closely resembles what we're doing here.
scene and i think that that closely resembles what we're doing here and it is such an insular
small thing but like just like we watch that grow and everyone blow up from that like we're starting
to see that with some of the artists where they're getting real web 2 potentials and you know features
and things like that and collaborations just because of their work here being like a big fish
in a small pond and i think it's like a really dope thing because just like nerdcore is kind of
like all right you're going to get more fans than you would have gotten normally because you're rapping about star wars like mc chris you know
what i mean but then it's like you can do your other stuff it's not about star wars and you just
get fans and people are like oh shit so yeah so yeah back in the day i mean before even nfts or
any of this crypto rapping stuff happened um there were comic cons and anime festivals and and the youtube conventions like
they used to be like smaller yeah but like even before that like there were these anime festivals
and stuff and and like and there's all these bands that do this stuff that have been doing this stuff
for years and years and like there's this mcdonald's band like mick it's called it's like
it's a heavy metal m McDonald's I've seen them
yeah the basis is grim yes dude like you've seen them like and they were and they like sing about
McDonald's but it's like heavy metal and I'm just like what but like I'm like I can't stop watching
it it's crazy but like so this this like all you know niche I've said this in so many rooms and I will fucking die on this hill.
Being in a niche market as a niche artist is actually a very, very, very empowering thing
because it's kind of like, I think that in the music business guys, it goes one of two ways.
You go niche market and become the biggest person in your niche because you can get the eyeballs
because it is niche. So it's not like
you have to have the giant machine behind you. It's either doing that or you have the giant
machine behind you and you do it the mainstream way. So like when we were signed to Virgin Records,
I was doing the mainstream way. Like that's the way I wanted to go. But then when we,
then when we, we got off that and went into Sumerian and then went independent, I went back into the niche marketing that we had been doing and built from.
And I just really honed in on that.
I did the NFTs.
I did the Web3.
I did the this, that, and the third.
And the anime festivals, the Comic Cons.
Like, that was the niche road that I took.
And it actually, like like really made a difference like in our,
and would you say that like the,
the mainstream approach was like a competition of just who could outspend
each other?
I mean,
yeah,
well it's that,
and it's also kind of like who has the best marketing team.
It's like,
it's,
it really does not even come down to the music at that point.
Like,
like if you get a six figure record deal,
like you're,
you're all in the same class. You're all in that graduation, like if you get a six figure record deal, like you're, you're all in the same
class. You're all in that graduation, like college class, college level class. So you're all good
enough to be there. Right. So it's really not about how good the music is. It's like, everybody's
kind on the same level. It just, it's, it's two things. It's one, do you have the hit song? Like
if you have a viral hit song, you're going to explode. And number two, if you don't have the viral, but you have a lot of good songs,
if you have the marketing team that is like crazy, you're going to win. And like some labels have
better marketing teams than others. I know Warner does really well. Like, I mean, there's some,
even if you're on a major, sometimes you don't have the marketing so anyway james go ahead and and i see you tech no no i'm just addressing my microphone sorry okay tech go ahead
so like um i definitely agree i've seen that a lot like um amp with kai sanat and them
they get a lot of people watching like their music ciphers and stuff and like it's okay but
generally they're just so
entertaining with what they do regularly that they have the audience for the music.
So that being said for web three, how do you think we go about doing that? Because it's clear
it's a tension economy to the point that I see traditional business people like Grant Cardone,
to the point that I see traditional business people like Grant Cardone, Cody Sanchez, and
Gary Vee doing it. But a lot of times, at least what I'm hearing is we're still a little bit too
nerdy for normal people. So how do we adjust to that market to meet them better halfway?
Well, I mean, first of all, there's a couple of things that are in play here that you have to realize. You're building on a financial market, right?
So like you're building in a space that isn't prone toward art.
It's just not built that way.
The art is built on top of finance.
So finance is the key element.
So if you're building on that, you have to realize that and realize that you're not going
to be the number one priority in any of the spectrums over here. You're just on that. You have to realize that and realize that you're not going to be the number one priority
in any of the spectrums over here.
You're just not.
Okay.
Which is fine, which is fine.
But you, you know, in order to market to those people, then you need to do, you need to garner
some sort of attention that is going to make your stuff valuable financially.
And that's a really weird, tricky situation for an artist
because we don't really, that's normally not how we think.
We just think about art and expression and emotion and this and that.
We don't think this song is going to be better marketed
to garner this amount of money to do that.
Like we don't think like that's not how we create product.
So I think that, you know, I just think you just make cool shit.
Like I've said this from the jump over here.
It's like you can't make for the market.
You have to make for yourself.
And like as a musician who's done this professionally for basically my whole entire life, I've always made make for yourself. And like, as a musician who's done this professionally for
basically my whole entire life, I've always made music for myself. If other people like it and
want to jump on board and become part of it, cool. Now, that being said, if you're trying to break
free of the Web3 market, you can't be singing about or rapping about Web3 shit because nobody in the real world gives a fuck, gives a fuck about anything over here.
I'm telling you right now, they don't care.
You need to rap or sing about universal emotional triggers, which means love, which means hate, which means like diversification, which means like whatever, defiance, something that everybody can sink their
teeth into. We have a new song coming out that's called bite back. And it's basically about being
pushed down and pushed down and pushed down finally to the point where you bite back. You're
just like, fuck this. I'm going for the throat and I don't give a shit. And it's like, it's a defiant
anthem sort of song. And that is something everybody can relate to that.
So the more relatable you come with your music, the more like across board and not so niche into the culture over here, the more I think that if you want to break free of the Web3 web three bubble, you'll, you'll be able to do that. If
now spotty wifi, um, you know, made a career out of rapping about, you know, this, this shit,
right. But you have to realize that that came because of timing. If spotty did that now and
was trying to up and come now, it wouldn't work because that bubble, it wasn't here now.
It's not here now.
It was there then.
And he was just basically riding the wave of all of that.
And you had all of the big music producers and rappers looking at the space and stuff.
And then they see Spotty and he's doing his thing.
So they're latching on to him because he knows the space and they want to make money you know it's all about what you can do he knows how to
make himself packageable like spotty is a master of branding and he's branded himself in a way
where he's aligned himself with rich and powerful people so he's like you look at me and my rich
friends too and i have all these connections so it's part of that so people want to do business
with them on a corporate level things like that and i would say you know on the other side of the
spectrum i think you're totally right i'm'm like, write something that's core,
connects with everyone on a core emotional level. But I think also, you know, Web3 is your focus
group. And if you use your people as your focus group, like, you know, a lot of us do, we have
our chats and we know our people that love our music and they'll give us honest advice. You can
craft either something that's really emotional or you can go the other route and say, what's going to be the most viral? What's going to be the most relatable thing that people will share and they'll give us honest advice you can craft either something that's really emotional or you can go the other route and say what's going to be the most viral what's going to be the most relatable
thing that people will share and they'll relate with and you can test that out within your people
and you know get on a space and think about it or get on a discord chat and think about it and talk
about it together and be like what would be a good thing that you know could come from my perspective
but like it's hard for us like em said to see our own brand especially if you're using your own name or whatever like i use my own name so it's like very hard for me to see who christy
where i where i end and where the artist and the brand begins right so i have my people around me
that are like you should do this song you should focus on this that's one of your best songs and
i'm like really i was going to throw that song out you know so it's that it's like rely on your
people once you find your people use the nfts and stuff to find your people because that's why they're buying your NFT now.
As a music NFT holder, that's why I collect music NFTs.
I want to be like, hey, I supported this person at this point in their career when people weren't supporting them as much.
And there's time-stamped proof on the blockchain.
I mean, I agree with that.
I agree with that to a certain extent.
I do – I don't – I hear this a lot from artists.
They're like, you know, use your people to tell you like where to go, da-da-da-da. I don't – I hear this a lot from artists. They're like, you know, use your people to tell you like
where to go. I don't, I I've never done that. I'm going to tell you right now. I have never in my
whole career ever done that. And I'll tell you why, because I know if I'm not creating from a
place of truth, I'm not creating properly. I can't create for other people. Like I, I can write
songs for other people in a, in a, in a
recording session where I go into a recording session and I'm in a pop session and I have to
write like three songs in like 30 minutes that are about like breaking up with your boyfriend in high
school. Sure. I could go and I could do that. I could like throw out three songs like McDonald's,
you know, but if I'm writing for myself, dude, I'm not writing to cater to my
audience. I'm writing to cater to what I feel because I know that my audience is there because
they relate to how I feel. So even if I feel something that's different from what I felt
before, they're going to feel that with me because they're not there for the actual,
just that specific emotion. They're there for the way that I feel emotions. And that's a huge
thing to wrap your head around. So I agree with you kind of, but I kind of disagree because like
I said, I've just never done that.
I'm playing the other side, right?
I'm saying like the other side of what you're saying, because there's a spectrum, right?
There's a spectrum between like true artistry and then just like commodity, like making music into a commodity.
And I've played on the other side for so long because I worked in the ad world for 15 years and I was a mercenary.
I've made a ton of theme songs that you've heard on the radio and on TV and everything.
And I wrote those and I used my powers for evil if you call it you know no that's you you made money in the business christiana
yeah that's how i felt at the time i was like i'm using my powers i don't feel that i i feel like
when when people make jingles and things i i i create i think that's creating art like a cross
board because you because the thing that you're doing when you're doing that this is this is
something that people don't understand and like like, it's like what I was
talking about writing a song in a, in a room for breakup song for like a, it's like, okay,
you can say, Oh, I'm selling out. No, you're not selling you out. You're just using your art to
craft something in a different way. And like, there's so many ways to craft art. It doesn't
have to be one way or the other. And that's why I was saying,
I personally disagree with catering to an audience
with my own personal music.
But if I'm writing for another artist
that's a pop singer that has like a million sold
and like they need a hit song,
like Rihanna or something,
I'm going to look at her audience,
see her biggest hits and write something that's going to be reminiscent of
them.
It's like the songwriting process begins with like an analytic of
demographics.
A hundred.
It's like,
it's very advertising kind of.
Yeah.
For that sort of shit.
It totally does.
Yeah,
totally.
And I agree with you.
I mean,
I have my stuff where it's like,
you know,
this is my album work.
And then it's like,
but when I do my single, I'm like,
I know my single needs to reach out and grab people.
And then they're going to hear the album.
Some people aren't going to care about the album, not going to like it.
They're going to be like, this is such a departure from what the single was.
Those are always my favorite albums.
When the single's really poppy and you listen to it and you're like, oh shit,
like Sugar Ray's old shit where they're like a metal band.
Oh dude, Sugar Ray in the beginning. Oh yeah.
So good. Fire. That's how I found out. You know what I mean? Incubus too. Incubus great radio hits. And you're like a metal band. Oh, dude, Sugar Ray in the beginning? Oh, yeah. So good. Fire.
That's how I found out.
You know what I mean?
Incubus, too.
Incubus, great radio hits.
And you're like, oh, they're a metal band.
Beastie Boys were a metal band with great radio hits originally.
But even I have to say, when Sugar Ray went super pop,
I kind of love that shit.
I'm just saying, he's good at what he does.
Here's the thing.
He still made good music.
It's just a matter of style change.
Yeah.
At that point, it was just like background, like cotton candy shit.
But it was just like, you didn't want to admit.
It's kind of like there's some artists I won't admit in a million years that I listen to them.
But I totally listen to those motherfuckers.
Well, it's like we were just talking about last week about the Grateful Dead.
They had like the Arista years were like their corporate years. They had, i was kind of like hey i got bills to pay let's put something down it's going to make a little money and then you have time and
you have the space to go hey okay let's go make our avant-garde stuff for the guys who you know
for the ladies who follow us in twirling skirts yeah it's you it's it is two completely different
worlds and they don't necessarily have to hate each other you can work in both without compromising your integrity just a matter of what what is the task ahead well
it's also like where you want to get your foothold in the industry like marilyn manson just uh
celebrated so many years of mechanical animals today or something like that but like so if you
look at his career like he got he got famous over a cover song, you know, you know, that's the reason why
Sweet Dreams like broke him. Like it wasn't, it wasn't one of his original songs that broke him.
It was, it was a fucking cover. And, you know, and, and a lot of times in the industry,
there will, there will be plants that kind of break artists. Like for example, Maroon 5 was
another one. Maroon 5 could not they put out
songs about jane and it was out for two years and there was nothing going on with that record
people wouldn't you couldn't pay people to listen to that record and we all know if you've ever seen
them live by the way fucking phenomenal like they're real musicians these guys they are beasts
adam levine is one of the best singers on the planet. He is so good
it's not even funny. Anyway,
but Songs About Jane came
out, I think it was two years.
They were just bouncing around. The label was like,
what the fuck are we going to do with this band?
And then all of a sudden they got a placement
I think on a
car commercial?
Was it a car commercial or it was a movie or something?
They got a placement.
They got a placement, blew up one of their songs.
And then the whole album, they reissued the album, the label did, because they got so much influx for that one song.
It was like it was then it was off to off to the races.
You know, it was like, OK, they couldn't they couldn't fucking stop.
I'm trying to remember what song was their first hit.
I can't remember.
It was this love oh well it is yeah and that was on a soundtrack for something and that's what broke them and it's like so it wasn't the band that broke itself because a lot of people
are like i just gotta write a song that's gonna sometimes it's not about the song sometimes it's
about the placement like where it is it's music business. And I've said this before in interviews.
I said it on the podcast that I did with John Knopf.
It's not just about talent.
It's about timing.
Timing in the industry is huge.
It's massive.
You can be the most talented artist on the planet and have bad timing and you will not make it.
You will just not fucking make it.
Example is spotty. look at spotty spotty
Right timing right place. Is he the best rapper on the planet? No, of course not. He wasn't even a rapper
I think he was like a lawyer or something like that. Like it was timing
It was timing and knowing his audience. So I'll stand by that like until I die
audience so I'll stand by that like until I die
you know I understand about a cover song breaking out too I'm thinking like
showing my age the Doobie Brothers they broke out with all black water which is
a friggin folk song from God knows when it was a b-side on our single and it
just fucking exploded and suddenly that took her you know that launched their
curve their break you know the big breakout they were doing they were a
bar band doing mo you know, the big breakout. They were a bar band doing motorcycle
clubs and whatnot.
And suddenly they're mainstreaming.
I mean, you look at
also, I mean, look at fucking
so TikTok, right?
Like, if you look at what is that?
Cigarettes After Sex. I love
the story of Cigarettes After Sex. If you don't know
this band, they had a
viral breakout on TikTok. Now know this band they had a viral um breakout on
tiktok now this band was formed in 1999 i think this band is old as fuck okay and they just got
famous like three or four years ago because of this viral breakout song and then everybody started
using their shit all over their reels and this and that, the third.
And then lo and behold, 30 years after their inception, they're playing MSG, Madison Square Garden.
It was the craziest story.
And it's not like the funny thing about it, even this is even more funny about it, is that they didn't pay for that breakout.
It just naturally happened.
It occurred because of timing, whatever it
naturally had it. Most of Tik TOK quote unquote breakout songs are six figure record deals coming
in and putting six figures into marketing on Tik TOK to have a quote unquote breakout song sleep
token. But like, but you know, like I won't say that out loud but i just said it out loud but like but you
know it's like that's what they do to make those songs break out but the interesting about cigarettes
after sex is they didn't have any of that like they weren't even on a label like those guys were
broke like they're a new york band new jersey band or something like no like nobody cared
nobody cared they just kept on making music because they liked making music.
I think they have other jobs, like whatever. They have families. They're like doing their thing. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, out of fucking nowhere. So like I said, sometimes it's
just timing. Go ahead, James. No, no, I'm good. I just, I'm fine.
Yeah. And yeah. But you know what I'm saying? I mean, mean like i said so it's either like that marketing
arm that you have it's like timing there's there's a couple ways that you can break out but
there's no one size fits all in this shit but like those are kind of and a lot of times it's
lightning in a bottle it's it happens because it just karma you know the stars align it's it's very very rarely is it ever manufactured
and released and done you know it happens the way you planned it so does as it were yeah for sure
for sure um and and a lot of times like video games are also good breakouts like i know there's
there's a couple bands that have video game placements, and all of a sudden, now they actually have a career.
Because they have that one song that hit on Call of Duty or something,
and now all of a sudden, or GTA, whatever.
I can't remember what it was.
There were a couple of 80s songs in Grand Theft Auto, Vice City,
because it was set in the 80s.
And the Flock of Seagulls.
Their one hit wonder song.
Oh, right.
I remember that.
But it just, they use that in the advertising campaign.
And just suddenly there's this freaking Miami Vice level nostalgia trip
exploded out of it.
Yeah.
I mean, you saw that.
You saw that with Fleetwood Mac.
Remember when that Fleetwood Mac song was was it Dreams, went viral on TikTok?
Yeah.
And all of a sudden,
you have all these 12-year-old kids
singing Fleetwood Mac,
and it was fucking weird.
I was like,
you don't even know what Fleetwood Mac is.
You weren't even conceived.
But yeah, that happens, though.
The nostalgia play like that
is also an interesting way to break something. So, I mean, there's many ways. Look, but yeah, I mean, that happens though. Like the nostalgia play like that is, is also an interesting way to, to break something.
So, I mean, there's many ways.
Look, if you have the money, you can be big.
If you have the money and you're smart, you can actually make a career out of, you know,
and you have talent.
If you have the money, talent, and you're smart, you can make a career out of, out of
music business for sure. If you don't have one of those three,'re smart, you can make a career out of the music business for sure.
If you don't have one of those three, you probably are going to have a harder time.
But, I mean, Lady Gaga, she didn't come from nothing, guys.
Her whole family is rich as fuck.
So, you know, she was introduced to the right people.
But she had the talent.
She had the talent.
She has ridiculous talent.
Ridiculous talent. She had the talent. She has ridiculous talent. Ridiculous talent.
Ridiculous talent.
And I think what told me on her was I actually heard her backstage singing acapella.
And I'm like, okay, she's got the gift.
Oh, yeah.
She has crazy voice, crazy pipes.
So does Katy Perry.
Katy Perry actually has a really great voice.
And, yeah, she's another one.
And her story was interesting too she had been signed twice
or three times and couldn't make it could not break out like they didn't know what to do with
her she was working at a record label and I think Dr. Luke found her at the record label when he was
in there one day and he was like you know and she and she kind of told him uh her story and and he was like
why don't you come down the studio and write a song with me and that was it and then bonnie mckee
got involved he was like i have this writer that i'm trying to like get going her name's bonnie
mckee and they wrote california girls and and oh oh i kissed a girl is the first song they wrote
together yep that was one that
broke her and that broke her the other thing too is that wasn't she doing like christian music or
something before she got something crazy and she was like signed to it and nobody cared and it was
just like you know i mean it's you know she just wasn't in her wasn't in her element and wasn't
with the right people but when she met bon, they just kept on cranking out hits.
I mean, it was crazy.
She had a crazy streak there.
Oh, God.
Bonnie still has a crazy – if you look at the accolades on Bonnie McKee's writing list,
holy shit.
Bonnie McKee has a decent pop career herself.
She does pop music.
But she's most known for her hits for other people.
And a lot of actual pop stars
start that way like actually lady gaga got her start writing for the pussycat dolls um you know
so i mean there's a lot of pop people that write for other people and break out that way because
that's kind of how they learn the industry and they't the players and then sometimes they get lucky and those players kind of help them out but yeah so um but as far as as far as the streaming thing goes guys like
the one problem that i have is the coin problem like i i you launch a coin here's this here's the
problem with coins you can't quit a coin like you are forever married to that coin forever like and
if you do quit the coin people will hate you they will threaten to kill you they will like no this
has literally happened like people are like my bags are down 90 i'm gonna go to your house and
shoot you in the face like i don't want that i sorry. That's not why I became an artist. You know,
I'm not, I'm not doing that shit. Um, for me, it doesn't make much sense, especially when my,
I mean, just to be honest in the room and since there's not too many people here,
but like, I just want to, you know, make my way, do my shit. And then I want to exit gracefully
and live a life that nobody knows anything about.
Like, you know, like that is privacy to me is the ultimate currency. Like when you can do things in
private and people don't know what the fuck you're doing, that to me is, is, and you have the money
and you just don't care anymore. Like, you know, when you've been signed as many times as I have and you've been doing touring for a decade like I have, like it feels good to go and be undercover and nobody knows who the fuck you are.
It feels really fucking good.
So like, I don't know.
So that's just how I feel about coins.
What do you guys think about coins?
I think there is still a general level of hostility to the whole idea of crypto coining and all that other good stuff.
Like I said, there's still certain places.
You don't even mention the words unless you want to face an angry mob.
And it's hard to advocate for it knowing that outside of the bubble, it's a war zone.
And you're the one carrying the bullseye on your back.
I mean, it's a very real real-world thing I think the people who stay here
and actually do believe in crypto and believe in NFTs and believe in crypto
like we have to we get a force to get to bear the brunt of the reputation of the
people who didn't believe in this and came in to just fucking exploit you know
and even look at like all the last Solana summer and even right now the
pump fun stuff in the pump fun live
It's like the people launching those coins are tik tokers. They don't live here
They're not people who like can tell you what the fuck a blockchain is. They don't know what a blockchain is
They know these buttons in this order. I'll make money
Isn't but Christiano isn't that the onboarding thing see here's it?
That's why we shouldn't put a long if we runs PumpFun, in charge of our fucking onboarding, maybe.
I mean, but here's the problem I have with any of this, and maybe you guys can help me out on this perspective, is that – so we're talking about onboarding. We're talking about all this. And we look at, like, creator capital markets, like the streaming thing, PumpFun, like all that sort of stuff.
We're looking at this shit. And then – and it and it's like oh this is onboarding the masses like
these are like what like you said cristiano web two people coming over here like tick tockers
coming over here yeah bravo right that should be good but then but then you have the sharks over
here that you can't get away from i posted something on my twitter i don't know if you guys
read it i said give a man a gun and he'll rob said, give a man a gun and he'll rob a bank,
give a man a bank and he'll rob the world. So what I mean by that is that when you have money
like that, you can literally rob the world. You can literally rub the world. And like,
so you have these sharks over here, whales that can just come in and use this as mass liquidity
extraction based on the backs of these TikTokers and stuff like that.
They can go in, they can market make and then extract,
market make and extract and just do it.
And they changed pump fund that it used to be,
you know, you had to do that as the creator.
You had to go in and pre-buy your token
before you promoted it and then rug it
and you drop the fucking bag on everyone's head.
And now they made it where you don't have to do that.
Now you get just, you know, creator fees passively and it doesn't matter. made it where you don't have to do that now you get just you know creator fees passively and doesn't matter you know you don't
have to even buy your own token you'll make money no matter what which is they thought would be
better but it's actually now worse because now the creators are like oh i could do whatever the
fuck i want end this stream and i know it's going to go to zero and not be responsible about it and
then like everyone who's in the coin it's like if if the person doesn't give a good enough
announcement that they're ending the show like it's going to go go, it doesn't matter where it's at, it's going
to go down to like 8K and it's going to go to fucking zero until they start the next stream.
So, and they want that because they get paid on both sides, right? So it's actually incentivizing
them to have the coin go to zero and then go back up and then go to zero and then go back up.
And it's like, they're getting paid no matter what, which is exactly what like the biggest,
you know, liquidity providers in the space are doing, right? They're literally getting paid on both sides of the transaction. They want
the coin to go up and down. I've seen people who are, I know are whales of certain coins
in the Pepe spaces, for example, they would come in and FUD Pepe and cause the thing to
fucking start to crash from the very beginning. And then like the, you know, they were our whales
that were our, that's where our market makers, you know what I mean? Like that's what they would do
and they would grab it at the bottom and pump funds.
Same thing.
People come in and they're like, oh, this thing's bundled or whatever.
And they start just spreading all this fud and panic about the project and
people panic and they sell.
And then they're like, all right, thanks for the better entries losers.
And it's like that level of, you know, like we're cooked.
Like the, the trenches are cooked if to use the parlance of our times.
Like we are completely and utterly cooked because that's not what crypto was supposed
to ever be about. But that's the thing that gets the most headlines. And we thought that web two
was going to come in and we were going to rob them and we were going to sell stuff to them and
everyone's going to take their liquidity. And it's like, no, they came in and come in whenever they
want. And they take liquidity from the crypto degens because you have a bunch of gambling addicts
who are like, I got to run back, run this back up because I've, you know, run $10,000 down to zero multiple times. And I got to, I'm in such a hole that I have to run
this back up. So they're desperate. And these TikTok creators are like, Hey, I have 50,000,
I have a hundred thousand or whatever. And that becomes, Oh my God, they have a hundred thousand
bullish. It's like, they're not going to post about it on their TikTok. They're going to rug
this thing at the end of this fucking space at the end of the, you know, the, the stream,
and then they're going to move on or die in, in the case of this fucking space at the end of the you know, the the stream and then they're gonna move on
Or die in the case of breads, you know what I mean? It's like it's
Insane. Yeah, and so it's it's not an old
Shoot himself on pump fun last time. Yeah, that's what they shut down. There was a beheading
Isis beheaded someone like every time they open up pump fun live again
Give it five days, you know, maybe two or three days after people are find out that everyone's making a ton of money
And it's it's game over and so it's like it's an attractive nuisance it's like opening a you know
a house that's filled with nails and broken glass and stuff and the kids next to a you know a school
you know what i mean like you could get criminal negligence for that's a crime you can't have like
an attractive nuisance like that that's what it's called so you know like we have people like running
in being like free money and it's just like they come out like what happened, man?
It's like, oh, and the only way to make money there is to be a creator and launch the coins.
And Pumpfine gets paid on all those every time you launch.
Yeah, no, no, no.
Well, they want the volume and they want more and more people on there.
They want to like raise the platform that way, which I get.
But like what you were saying and what we've all kind of agreed on
and i'd be interested in hearing tech on on your perspective on this is that the mass extraction of
the liquidity is because is going to become a problem like i mean that's just i mean i think
that's how we got here i think that's why we're cooked because people are so desperate that they
can't hold a market cap for more than five seconds and so it's like we are totally at a point where like that means you need new people coming in and you need
new business practices because what we're exporting from this space is not happy customers we're
exporting the saddest most miserable customers ever and that's the one way ticket to the failing
business a succeeding business is you export happy customers and they bring in new people that's how
the flywheel fucking spins this flywheel is not even built.
Yeah, it is not even a flywheel. But yeah, tech, what's up?
Yeah, that is something that I see and I've noticed a lot of people that are in Web3 didn't
start with the traditional finance of the stock market. So having patience and understanding that markets are always going
to go down and up at some point for some reason is not something that's solidified here. And I
noticed that a lot of the celebrities that come to the space, they realize that because they
obviously have agents and professionals they pay to do all this data. So they know they can just
kind of slide in and slide out. i think for the long term that's
going to change because realistically your bigger projects like bitcoin for example are going to be
here when a lot of the other stuff is forced to go away so as unfortunate as it is now by force
it's gonna have to change like the market is just going to do it to people.
Yeah.
I mean,
I, I definitely think the market.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I got a phone call.
I definitely think that the market is,
is definitely going to rug people.
Like,
I mean,
it just always is.
I just,
you know,
I come back to this every single time we have a space,
like people,
like human beings just
ruin things it's like we can't we can't just be in the middle chilling like we have to push it
one way or the other and when we do push it one way or the other we fuck it all up so like it's
like it's like any movement that has happened in the past like 10 years that I've been around for has been like, it starts like this, like look at the Me Too movement, right?
The Me Too movement started as a good thing.
Like it was like, all right, we're going to call some people out on their bullshit.
Like this is going to be good.
And then it turned into a witch hunt.
Then it turned into like going after Johnny Depp when Amber Heard was actually the abuser.
Like, I mean, it turned
into like all this bullshit that it was never supposed to be. And my problem with market,
like doing that, setting up something like that, like a streamer situation on top of a financial
market. Are you kidding me? That's like a recipe for disaster.'s like all right like this is gonna be you getting money
involved is just that's you're expected to it's yeah it's so risky it's it because there's the
expectation of profit then the first people in are the ones who want to cash out and preserve it
because nothing i've seen out of it really is sustainable it's i mean bitcoin the fact that
it's become as successful as it has is kind of an anomaly because they found a use for it as, you know, kind of this lever against, you know, the physical markets.
Well, yeah, Bitcoin was designed as a store of value and a hedge against inflation.
It was it is it is and always will be the only decentralized token for real.
Everything else is centralized.
You think it's decentralized, but the shit thing.
And it's backed by something.
Bitcoin's backed by the money it costs to run the, you know,
the Bitcoin mining machine.
So it's basically backed by the power of the price of electricity.
It's backed by the people.
Like Bitcoin is money for the people.
But I'm saying it's backed by the petroleum dollar.
So it's like, it's because it's, because it's,
because it's powered by electricity and you need electricity to sit in mind the electricity is priced based on
the price of oil and the price of petroleum so it's still based on the
petrodollar which all currencies are so it actually fits you know I mean it's
just like a level of extra abstraction they put in the middle of it where the
electricity but if you can do the math you can be like oh price of oil
fluctuates here's how much the price to mine Bitcoin is right now right and you
can do the math make money on the arbitrage.
So they love that.
Like all dollars are based on the price of petroleum for now.
You know, so I think it fits on that too.
It's like backed by something, proof of work too,
you know, proof of actually, you know,
solving a complex equation.
And, you know, you need the processors to do that, right?
Yeah, no, I mean, Bitcoin is definitely the coin.
Backed by NVIDIA.
Yeah, tech, what's up?
I see your hand up.
So I was going to say the biggest difference from another perspective that I see, and this actually goes for Ethereum too, is that it was marketed to businesses instead of retail.
And that's the biggest difference because I think we can all agree that as far as the economy for the world, most of the world has not really recovered since COVID.
So with everything being so much more expensive, people losing jobs and stuff, if you have emergency money anywhere, you're probably spending it to cover things.
spending it to cover things. But if you're somebody that you own a bank or you're Michael
Sale or Grant Cardone, this isn't affecting you any. And those are the people that are in Bitcoin
and Ethereum, people that aren't affected by the current market. So they have so much more
stability because it's been marketed to rich people. I mean, I'll say this about that.
Like when you have something that is truly decentralized and built on a market value where it is a hedge against inflation,
and you have the dollar losing 25% of its worth over the past like how many years?
Not so many years.
And you have this inflation gauge that's going into the roof.
Bigger people with bigger money are looking for a hedge.
And so like you give them a hedge, they're going to go for it.
And I think that, again, I was saying timing is a thing in music.
Timing is also a thing in financial markets, guys.
Oh my God, is it ever.
God. It's like timing the market is...
The new thing.
They say that time in the market beats timing the market, which I totally agree.
Oh, absolutely. I'll personally go out for that.
Yeah, but if you're a hedge fund guy, putting your money into something that could hedge
against inflation for your clients and things like that, that's what you want to do.
So I think the big money came in because of a lot of that.
I think it was a timing situation with the economy doing what it's doing right now.
You know, it's also like if you look at the housing market right now, right?
So you look at the housing market right now, we're having a problem more and more of these
big corporations like blackrock buying up all the middle-class housing which is a big problem
because you have the the age of buying a house has went from 25 to 39 guys like nobody can afford to
buy a house because you have blackrock coming in eating up the houses that are meant for like the middle class.
And the middle class can't go against BlackRock.
They're not going to outbid them.
So they end up having to rent from BlackRock a house that the mortgage would have been like $1,800 on.
But the rent from BlackRock is $2,900.
So like so we're having this is a crisis.
This is a crisis that's starting to rear its ugly head.
And I don't know what they're going to do about that.
But again, timing in markets is a big thing.
Innovative.
It's good to have you on stage.
What's going on?
Hey there.
Are you there?
There you are.
I am.
I am.
We're doing the hair down for the boat races.
I was just checking in.
How was it?
Not near my meeting.
Oh, very good.
Saturday, one of them got too close to another boat and flew up in the air.
It was pretty spectacular.
That's kind of cool.
I think they go around 200 miles an hour.
And right now I'm on the backyard, you know, right behind SeaWorld here.
And we're over on Fiesta Island.
So just tearing stuff.
Do you have anything to contribute to this conversation?
Saw you.
Oh, I think I butt fingered it, but I'm glad I checked in.
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Tech, I see your hand up, man.
What's going on?
So I'm glad you brought up BlackRock because that does bring up a good question.
Like, just talking to a lot of family members and a lot of people in general, especially back when I did Uber, a lot of people who work nine to fives are in the 401ks, but they don't know who their jobs actually invest in or the
fact that BlackRock owns a lot of those 401k plans with their index funds and ETFs. So with
so many years of them just doing transactions and fees, even if everyone was aware now,
just doing transactions and fees, even if everyone was aware now, theoretically, and
decide to take their money out with the amount they've gotten in fees, which you were talking
about the right time in which they indeed had the right time and so much time in the
market. How would we counter that now? It's like they have too much power. I don't see
it happening without a time machine at this point.
I mean, if under certain circumstances they can be forced
to divest, but it would take a
literal act of Congress or somebody
finding a legal...
That's not happening.
Not in the foreseeable future, I will
say that. Yeah, you mean the Congress that's paid by
BlackRock? Yeah, the Congress that
is owned by BlackRock? Are you talking about that
Congress? Like, I don't think that
Congress is doing shit. Like, you have to understand, at this point in our history of capitalism and where we are in our
late-stage capitalism years, we are at the mercy of certain things. One of them is these big
corporations like BlackRock. Another one is the big healthcare companies like Pfizer and things
like that, that are literally farming us because they need us to be sick in the United States.
There are really some evil, and I'm not talking conspiracy theory. This is all shit you can look
up. This is not- It's open in the public. But see, the thing is, we've been here before. About 100 years ago, the United States Congress was in the back pockets of the trusts. It can be broken. There is a certain point where it becomes so damaging to the system that with enough will, it can be broken up. It's one of those things we're not there yet, unfortunately. But we also have a president sitting right now that is very friendly towards
large corporations and very friendly towards billionaires. But also, but a hundred years ago,
like I said, there was a way, uh, Warren Harding was basically a Trump prototype. If you look the
guy up, he is, if you look up who he was, he is everything Trump ever is. He just, he was doing
it in the 19 teens. He only benefit to the country was he dropped dead 29 months into his first term.
But the people who are like that have been in power before, and they've been broken.
There is a point at which they go too far, and the electorate can take them down.
I don't see us being there yet, and I see a lot of other factors in play right now.
But it's not completely hopeless, even though it is kind of dark.
It's not completely hopeless, even though it is kind of dark.
Well, I think the reason why I like crypto and I'm so pro-crypto is because crypto is kind of like a hope.
Like, I mean, crypto gave me hope because I was a musician struggling in the music business.
Even being signed and being able to be a professional musician for most of my life and not hold a job.
Like literally just being a musician and
touring and like still not making, you know, like what somebody would consider a good, you know,
living, but at least I was doing what I loved and I could make rent and I could make food and I
could make car payment and I could do this. But, um, but you know, crypto allowed me to have that freedom, because it brought value back
to my art, you know, and into a financial world that, that you could actually there was enough
volatility in it. And it wasn't controlled by the black rocks and the hedge funds and the this and
that the third like the stock market is, it just made it a lot more open and able to make money.
And I think that that's what attracted a lot of people over here is that a lot of people that
made it big in crypto, like weren't like, you know, traders in the beginning, they were just
people that knew stuff about the financial markets, possibly, but they were also like people that
just were sick and tired of the nine to five grind, like not being able to make it because a lot of times right now, and we were talking about the housing crisis.
A lot of times right now you'll have like a two household family with two income household family that can't even make their make a mortgage payment on a house.
So they have to rent or they think they can't because of the situation we talked about, about the housing crisis.
So, like, I mean, like, where does that leave us?
You know, and and I was talking to my friend, you guys know Borovic in the space, and he's like super Republican, very pro family, which is great.
Like, I mean, I'm I'm I'm for a lot of the things he's for.
But I also do have like some stuff to say on, on the family situation
because he's like, yeah, you know, more people need to have kids and this and that. And I was
like, if people can't afford a house, then how are they like, what are they going to do with these
kids? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, you're going to have like two kids and be
in a one bedroom apartment. I mean, it's just, you can't do it like so kids cost money like they
need food and water yeah exactly they're very expensive dog food's cheaper you know a lot of
people are just like oh i have an animal and like not a kid yeah i think that a lot of people are
doing that go ahead james sorry the other thing too is that it's not just the cut the expensive
kids it's all the risk it's all the shit they're throwing at women these days in that whole world.
And it's too – there's no benefit to women to have kids these days.
I'll just put it that way, and you can do your own research from there.
But that whole system is just not designed to benefit them,
and it's not – there's no motivation to do so.
I mean, I, he asked me, so Boro asked me yesterday, he was like, if you got pregnant,
would you have an abortion or would you keep it?
And that, I mean, that's a, that's a very.
If I got pregnant, I would be very concerned.
If you got pregnant, I would be very concerned.
I would be like calling the news.
Yeah.
I would be like, oh my God, that's insane.
That should be on pump phone live stream.
But like, I mean, it was like, I had to think about it.
Pregnant man.
Yeah, exactly.
I had to think about it.
Cause like, I mean, I'm not, first of all, if anybody, anybody in this room knows me,
you guys all know me. Like I'm not, I of all, if anybody, anybody in this room knows me, you guys all know
me. Like, I'm not, I don't, there's nothing living in my apartment. All of the plants have died.
Like, I mean, I've had to, I've tried to have two fish. They both died on me. Like, I mean,
I can't even raise a fish guys. Like, it's like that. So like for me having another,
like being responsible for another living, like human being is probably
not a good idea.
So I would probably go against it.
Right.
And, and also, but, but for me, it's kind of like, it's not even just about that.
It's about the situation of like relationships with men and women right now.
There is nothing that screams security about that.
I'm sorry.
But like, I don't know any couples that stay together that long.
Like, it's just, it's like most of my friends go through men like water or go through women like water.
And if they have a girlfriend, maybe it'll last like three to four years and then it's done.
It's because nobody can cook anymore.
Like cook a coin? to four years and then it's done. It's because nobody can cook anymore. Like, cook
a coin? No, like fucking
cooking a nice meal.
No one can cook for you anymore.
It doesn't matter. We have Uber Eats, Christiana.
Where have you slept? Exactly. Everyone's just like,
fuck it. I'll Uber Eats. I don't need you. I got Uber Eats.
I have a phone. We used to cook for each other.
Uber Eats. I can cook like a...
You stay together for his lasagna.
You'd be like, yeah, he's a piece of shit, but his lasagna
Every Sunday he makes it up to me
It's fucking fire
I don't know about that
I wouldn't even stay with a man for his cooking
Although I have stayed
Okay, I will admit this, guys
I have stayed with a man
Two different men for two different reasons
And this is hilarious
The first guy I stayed with for two years,
two years because I loved his dog.
I couldn't break up with him.
I love the dog.
I just,
he was such a piece of shit,
but his dog was such a cute.
I would play with the dog when he wasn't around.
And then when he came home,
I was like,
I got to go.
Like I was literally like that for like a while.
You're dating his dog.
I was literally dating the dog.
The second guy, the second guy, I'm not even kidding.
The second guy, I stayed with him for six months after the expiration date because he
had the best mattress on the planet.
I am not even kidding.
I couldn't even sleep in my own bed after this shit.
I was like, God damn it. Like I have to stay here because your mattress is so good. You are a piece of shit,
but that fucking mattress, man, it had me. So yes, I have, I have sacrificed for,
for things like that. I think you're right though. I think a part of it is that, you know,
there's literally shopping, there's like several shopping apps where you can shop for people now.
And it's like, you know, if you ever get a feeling where you're like, oh, the grass is greener,
you can just go see how green the grass is. And it's like, you know what I mean? Like we live in
a different kind of society where it's like everything in our society challenges monogamy,
but then we villainize people who are polyamorous, right? And it's like when they were like,
literally, I'm just trying to adapt to how society is throwing, you know, ladies and men at everyone
who's in a
relationship or out of a relationship. And it makes it so easy for all that stuff. And so it's
like, realistically, I think it's a level of it is like, if we can accept and understand as humans,
that everyone's going to have needs and urges and things like that, and talk about those things and
be open and communication in our relationships and find our own boundaries. I think that's what
it's going to take because most of the time 90 of relationships break up because of like cheating and things like
that where someone goes oh i'm going to break up with you because i want to go explore someone else
when you know they could have had that conversation and said hey listen like i've been with you for
20 years i don't even know what other people are like i need to experience that you know
but it's such a shame-filled conversation you know it's like that's against god's way or whatever so you know what i mean it's like the religious right is involved in it too and it's such a shame-filled conversation. You know, it's like that's against God's way or whatever.
So, you know what I mean?
It's like the religious right is involved in it too.
And it's like this push to solidify marriage.
Yeah.
And really, we're in a population crisis.
We don't need to be solidifying monogamy that has put us in that population crisis.
We need to be allowing people to have as many babies as possible and figuring out how to deal with that.
Do we, though?
Okay, wait a minute.
If we want to survive as humans, yeah, we need we want to survive it i'm gonna push back on that because okay this is something that i talked about on the podcast i was
with john is what's going on right now with de-aging cells so they are de-aging cells from
50s to 30s and it's and they're staying at 30s um they're they did a de-aging program in the eyes of mice, like older mice that were blind.
They de-aged the cells of the eyes and they can see now and they are remaining like that.
Yeah, they reversed the length of the telomeres. The telomeres in your DNA,
they can make them longer. So you're saying that we don't need the kids to replace the people
because the people aren't going to be dying. It's not just the telomeres though. It's actually a base protein that signals what your cells need to repair and things
like that that you lose as you get older.
So they found this protein and it's actually three proteins.
I don't know what they're called.
I forgot.
But they did this in mice.
It's working.
And now they're looking to go into other primates and do different things.
And they started in the eyes because it was a hard one to do.
They figured that if they could do eyes, they could probably do other things like livers and hearts and things like that.
But I'm telling you guys, in about 10 years, maybe even less, the biggest problem on this planet for human beings is fighting entropy.
If we can fight entropy and we don't have the curfew of time on our shoulders, think
about a world where time is not linear.
And like time isn't linear anyway, if you know anything about quantum physics, but I
won't go down that.
Age isn't linear, right?
I'm not going down, I'm not going down that rabbit hole. But you're't go down that. Age isn't linear, right? I'm not going down that rabbit hole.
But you're saying a world in which age isn't linear, right?
You could live in your 20s
and then you could say, I want to live.
It's not even age isn't linear.
It's just age isn't a factor anymore.
It's not even a factor.
Like it doesn't even matter.
They were able to slip them to different ages, right?
They were able to slip them back.
Like they could reverse the aging,
but they can also advance and like put them at any age. So think about a world where you could, once you're 18, you get to decide what age you're going to be.
And then you'll be that for the rest of your existence.
I don't know. Cause like, I think like, let's say you got to pick and it's like, you know, you're 18 and you're like, oh, I'm going to dye my hair gray and get a cat. Or you could just be like transformed to be a 60 year old woman and just like experience that. And then be like, all right, now I want to be a hot 20 something. And now I want to be a 40 year old, you know what I mean? Like, and like, you'd be
able to just slip into whatever age you wanted. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. But like, I think,
I think when that happens, the point I was trying to make with all this is that when,
when age becomes less of a factor and time becomes just a measurement of days and like,
Time becomes just a measurement of days and like and from point A to point B, which it really is.
But like but for us, we put like isms onto it.
When that when we solve entropy, right, then guess what we get to do?
This is when we get to space travel, because the problem with us in space travel right now is it takes too long to get from point A to point B.
So by the time you get to point B, you're going to be dead.
But if you can –
Yeah, for 40 years to get there.
Yeah, if you can solve the entropy equation, then that doesn't become a factor.
Like you could put somebody on a spaceship for 200 years.
It doesn't fucking matter.
Like they can go forever.
It doesn't fucking matter because they're never going to – they're going to just de-age consistently. So like hyper sleep,
right? Right. You can do hyper sleep. You can do all these things that we were like, we see in like
alien Romulus and all this shit on TV and, and what, whatever movie you're watching,
that's just coming true guys. So, so the reason why I went down that rabbit hole is because we
were talking about population control. Now for me, if you, we can do this with people, we have enough people.
We don't need more people because people are going to live forever. So if you keep on creating
people and people aren't dying, you're going to have an overpopulation of this planet, which is
why we need space travel because we need to get off this rock so like so we can wait like 40 years
or 30 years maybe like till the till the de-aging and all that stuff because we're gonna get stuck
with some fucking goblins like there are some old dying nazis and old dying motherfuckers who
caused a lot of problems for the last 80 years that are like yeah but christiana don't you you
know this people there's bad childs that are to stay alive until 200 years and we're going to be stuck with them.
There's bad apples on every tree.
Like, that is not going to change.
Like, that is, people.
That's who's funding this anti-aging technology, by the way.
Probably.
It's probably some Nazis somewhere, honestly.
Yeah, it's the mega, mega elite rich who are like, I can't die.
It's probably like a singer who's still alive in South America.
Yeah.
Like, my grandson's a DJ. I can't die. No one's a DJ. Yeah. Like my grandson's a DJ.
I can't die.
No one's going to run the evil business.
It's literally the story that Mike Myers laid out.
Dr. Evil and his son doesn't want to take over the evil business.
That's like what all of the Illuminati people are dealing with.
Their son wants to be a DJ and go snowboard.
Yeah.
I mean, it's quite great.
But you guys understand what I'm saying about the entropy thing. And then if that happens and then we can, if we can get off this rock,
then we can keep procreating. But like, if we, if we can de-age ourselves and then keep
procreating, we're going to burn this, burn this fucker down. Like we need to like figure it out
and we need to figure it out quick. Um, and there's a lot of morals and like, and, and,
and things that you can add into this conversation because there's morality and there's a lot of morals and like, and, and, and things that you can add into this
conversation because there's morality and there's this and that third. And if you're really big into
families, you, you know, I want a family, I want kids. I want to procreate. I want to see my,
you know, my eyes and somebody else's face or whatever people do when they have children.
Like, but like, that is so creepy the way you said it. I don't know why it's creepy.
I want to see my eyes and their face but you know what I'm saying it's like oh you have your father's eyes yeah okay my father's eyes are in my face like what like I don't know
I just always found that fucking creepy anyway but it is creepy yeah but um but yeah so you guys
understand what I'm saying is that I don't know where we're going with this conversation.
No, I agree with you.
It's like, if we don't need to replace the dying people, then it becomes like, all right,
everyone can keep pulling out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and then, and then it also becomes, okay, so we're doing this thing with the telomeres
and the proteins and we're de-aging cells and everybody's becoming 25 again forever.
And, you know, and then we can do whatever the fuck we want for the rest of our lives.
We don't have a curfew on it.
So you're going to have, you're going to have sheep and wolves as you always have in, in,
in life.
Like I call the population, either you're a sheep or you're a wolf.
And like the wolves are the go-getters.
They're the ones that always have an agenda.
They're doing their shit.
They have like, they know exactly what they're doing from point A to point B. Then you have the sheep, which are the people that
kind of just like want to be comfortable. Just don't want to like upset the, you know, the,
the society. Like they just want to like fit in. They just want to have their life and be
comfortable and, you know, have their family and this and that and the third. So I think that you're going to have like a you're going to start seeing a very broad channel between the two.
Because I think that once you prolong life like that, people are going to because you're going to get bored real fast.
If you're living for 200 years, aren't you going to get bored, Christiana?
Would you think they institute something like that Philip K Philip K Dick novel and then the movie in time
Because it was based on a great story and that's why like even with you know, some shitty actors
That was a good movie still kind of rocked as a movie right and it's like the concept is pseudo believable when you turn
You know 20 or whatever it is when you're at your sexiest they freeze your time
They freeze your you know age you're not gonna age anymore
But like if you don't have money your time your timer is going to run out you're
going to die oh was that with justin timberlake yeah that was like that was the movie that sold
me on him as an actor yeah he was actually not too bad in that i i wasn't squirming when i was
looking at it that's what i mean it's like i think the story was so good that it still managed to
work you know what i mean it was like so compelling because it is that time is money and we're all on that level where it's like, you know
You we all know how much our time is worth and all that stuff and the elites time would be worth more and it's a great parallel
You know, but it's like I think Philip a dick did a lot of that. He would think about the logical
Conclusion, you know sci-fi examines current trends to its logical conclusion and that becomes absurdist
you can get satirical stuff from that or you can get sci-fi stuff from that it can become absurdist
and silly or scary or like idiocracy it's both you know i think i think to your point with that movie
i think that that's exactly what this becomes because i think this technology of de-aging
yourselves is going to be costly so if you don have it, you're not going to live forever because you're not going to be able to afford to keep de-aging your cells. Like it's,
it's literally, it's good. They're going to put it like, I mean, look at the pharmaceutical. Okay.
Look at the pharmaceutical companies right now with diabetes medicine. And if you don't have it
and you can't get it, you're done. You're dying guys. You're fucking dying. Like, you know,
like you can't afford your diabetes and you can're fucking dying. You can't afford your diabetes. You can't afford
insurance. People are dying because of that. I'm a type 2 diabetic. I can tell you all about it.
Exactly. Although in China, they're curing that shit, which they don't want to allow over here
because it's too much money will be lost on the healthcare companies. But anyway, that's a whole
other rabbit hole to go down. But you know what you know what i'm saying so i think they're going to
like really price gouge the whole like living forever thing so i think that you're going to
have a variation of in time like played out on the earth in about five to ten years i mean you
guys think it's 10 to 30 years? No, I'm telling you,
this shit is going to move fast because the number one thing in health and wellness is aging.
The number one risk to a human being is age. It's not cancer. It's not this. It's not that.
It's not cancer.
It's not this.
It's not that.
It is literally aging.
So if you can solve that, you're making like extraordinary amounts of wealth.
I mean, to the point where like your generations to come, even if you have children, like,
or you could live forever and you'll still have enough money because like, it's just
going to be out of control.
So anyway, yeah.
Okay, enough about that.
I don't know why we go down these rabbit holes sometimes, but we do.
Tangents are awesome like that.
It kind of broadens the spectrum to open some doors.
I mean, consider all the music you can make if you can live forever and all the,
all the things that you'll see and all the things that you'll feel.
And, and, and I don't know, I think it also kind of like makes, makes heartbreak become
less of a thing.
Like all the emotions might be dissolved a little bit because if you get to feel them
forever, like, you you know does it become
less precious you know like does life become less precious that way i mean this well i think i think
you realize the temporality of connection you there was a show called babylon 5 a few years
back and it actually featured a guy who featured an alien who could live that long and the
understanding was that only only a heart that dies believes that love can last forever
because if you understand when you've lived you live us to a certain point you understand the
temporary and the temporary nature of it life and all these connections we understand that
it comes it goes it moves you know it's all in faith it's in the current phase of the fad or
whatever everything's a damn fad oh it's only because, well, go ahead.
No, I'm just, so everybody on the stage, I want to hear the answer to this.
If you could live forever, do you think that you would appreciate your life?
And what would you do with it?
I think that, like, if you try to displace the entropy, physical entropy of your body dying,
you're going to get a kind of a mind death.
So I think you're going to become numb after a while. You know what I you know what i mean like you see people like they're very sensitive when they're
kids and they get more and more numb to the world's bullshit as they get older so you're gonna see
like 200 year old sociopaths like i think that we're gonna have to kill them at some point it's
gonna be like dude no this mother fucker exists think about someone who has 200 years to just
build up wealth and power and just numbness and it becomes more and more callous to society and their woes and their pleas for help and they're just like no fuck these
motherfuckers you know what i mean like i'm living forever and so i don't think we get a
saint germain out of it i think we get like a nosferatu situation and you just start to get
you know like people who are like whatever i need to because what about like if they've had so much
experiences and they've done everything right and now they're just like one thing i haven't done is murdered people and now just to feel a thrill they just start being
a serial killer yeah but that there's also ties to morality on that i think that people have a
pretty high moral standards when it comes to certain things so like i don't think it is
but those fade is what i'm saying everything entropy is right so it's like if our body's
not entropying your moral standard is going to entropy because we don't reward moral standards and we don't reward having them in fact
we reward not having them in our society so unless that were to change and we were to find a way to
like mind wipe people and you know like like rick does where he takes the bad memories out or
whatever you know they already are they're doing that in japan did you hear about this so now so
guys i'm like i'm telling you this shit is real real. So like, look this up, look this up in
Japan. They can, they can, they're starting to wipe memories. So basically it's like, have you
guys seen eternal sunshine for the spotless mind? It's one of my favorite movies. If you've never
seen that movie, please go watch it tonight and cry your eyes out because you will cry your eyes
out. Cause it's such a fucking good movie and it's so worth it to cry your eyes out because it's such a fucking good movie. And it's so worth it to cry your eyes out.
It's so fucking worth it.
Anyway, that is a great movie.
And it's basically about this man and woman, Kate Winslet and Jim Carrey.
And Jim Carrey is a serious actor in this, and he's so fucking good.
They have this love affair and she's
like very like stubborn and very like self like you know you know just very into driving her own
vehicle like just very her like her own path you know and he's kind of like a little bit of a beta
but in along for the ride but he really loves her but she kind of drives him little bit of a beta, but in a long for the ride, but he really loves her, but she kind of drives him nuts. Like, and so they, they have a horrible breakup and it, and,
and she goes and she wipes her memory with this company that can wipe memories, comes to her
house, wipes her memory of him. And he gets a letter in the mail that says, your memory has
been wiped from this person. Please do not contact them anymore. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he gets a letter in the mail that says, your memory has been wiped from this person. Please do not contact them anymore.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And he is floored because he's still in love with her.
Like, it's like, you know, this is like a, but he gets very angry because he's like,
fuck her.
Like, she just wiped my memories off.
I'm going to wipe hers.
So he like hires the same company to come in and wipe the memories too.
And I'm not going to tell
you the whole story because i want you to go watch movie but basically what happened the big crux of
the whole movie is when the memories are being wiped of her he changes his mind and is like
shit i don't want to wipe these memories i want to keep her like i want to you know and then it
becomes a thing where another like point of the movie is
like, even if you wipe memories from like about somebody or like a heartbreak or something like
that, if you're meant to be in that person's life, you always find your way back. Like it's like,
which is a really interesting concept. Um, and I do believe in that. I, I believe in the universe
pushes you places and will push you towards people.
And even if you have been away from them for like 10 years, they will pull back into your orbit if they are meant to be in your orbit.
So it's a little bit about that, too.
So interesting movie.
But the point of that whole thing was that in Japan, they are doing this.
They are starting to practice this.
So like what do we think? They're doing it in mice, apparently. Yeah, they're doing this. They are starting to practice this. So like, what do we think?
They're doing it in mice, apparently.
Yeah, they're doing it.
Yeah, so do we think this is a good idea?
Like, is this a good idea?
Yeah, well, tapping back into Babylon 5 again,
a great sci-fi show from the 90s,
they actually did not have a death penalty.
They had what was called death of personality,
where they would go in, wipe your memory out, wipe your your entire memory of who you were and you would basically spend the
rest of your life as a civil servant where it was kind of actually a form of execution where you
would you the body would be allowed to live preserve life yada yada but the person that
you know the software in the meat skeleton would be shut would be completely erased and wiped out
and let and turned loose to serve society it was kind of an interesting it was a hell of a twist on the
whole idea of a capital punishment that's why i was william it's nice to have you on stage i want
to hear your thoughts on this i'm old i know but you have thoughts on this right no no that's what
i'm saying though i'm like sort of a relic I'm learning
so much because you know I when I started playing and painting everything was manual I you know
there was no digital I'm learning you know all the digital processing and everything I see my
I raised two kids they're in their late 20s and I'd be petrified if, sadly, if either of them called and said, oh, I'm starting a family or I'm doing this or I'm doing that.
The world is, just the affordability has changed so much since I had kids in the 90 thing that is jumping out at me listening to everybody is some of the the pros and cons and this or that.
Really, it's just if you like Emily said, if you can't afford your own cost of living, how are you going to pay for anybody else?
But, you know, it is a time.
William, when you say that, does that reinforce being selfish?
Because I feel like beyond—
I don't think it's selfish, though.
I think it's negligent to have children and not be able to provide for them.
I mean, one of the reasons I worked as long as I did in something that was very, like, wearing.
So I'm back to art and music after literally a career as a lawyer.
I'm not practicing law anymore, which is why suddenly I'm playing in painting like full time. But I think it's selfish to have them and not be able to provide
for them. So most of my years went into BlackRock 529 plans. They both went to three different
universities. One got to study abroad. They're independent now but even having you know educations even having professions even they can
barely you'd be in you know it's shocking all the education they went
through and they can barely pay for themselves so to bring somebody else in
the world and then what kind of stressful environment is that child
going to be in if the parent can't even afford them?
So I think money dictates if you're like me and you're, I wouldn't even say traditionalist or anything like that, because I think I'm pretty politically liberal. But if you're traditional in the sense that you want them to have a good life, you're asking for trouble and that child's going to have a problem if you can't provide for them. When I grew up, everything was free. Football, baseball, track. Everything
was through school. My kids, I paid a la carte for all that stuff. So if you want kids to have
a decent life, I don't think it's selfish not having them. I think it's selfish having them
almost Emily in a much more dramatic sense of like getting fish and not being, oh my gosh, I forgot about the fish.
I think it's very selfish to have kids if you can't provide for them because you're setting them up for a lot of problems that even our generation or my generation didn't have.
So I'm like listening to you guys talk about everything from Spotify to electronics last week, analog,
digital, all these things. It's like I was, you know, alive and painted and played in bands. And
then I said, I got to make money and then disappeared for like 30 years. And it's like
defrosting. So I'm learning a lot, listening to everybody at the same time. I, you know,
I experienced a lot of this stuff firsthand from when both my kids were little.
Everything was much more affordable, and it's not anymore.
So can I ask you a question?
This is a really hard question, and maybe it's not meant to be a mean question.
Do you regret sacrificing, like, your art and music for your children?
Good.
I am extremely—I get up all those years trekking into the office,
trekking into courtrooms, you know, I sacrificed myself and I wasn't necessarily happy with what
I was doing, but I felt it was the right thing to do. But having said that, so I wouldn't,
it's like a paradox, right?
You feel miserable on the one hand, but you wouldn't undo them at all.
But now when I wake up and all I have to do is mentor them, I say thank you, thank you,
thank you when I wake up because maybe my agenda, if I'm not privately, I'll mediate
cases for lawyers, but I don't practice anymore.
So if I don't have anything to do other than what song do I want to learn and what song do I want to learn? And what do I want to paint today? I say, thank you,
thank you, thank you. But during that time was very difficult, but I wouldn't undo it. And
there's no way I'd rather cease to exist than undo them. I love that. And, and so you're saying
that nowadays, as you see it comparatively, like, you know, towards what you went through in your time with
where money was and where the inflation rate was and where housing was, you think that nowadays
it's pretty much like zero to none to raise a family, like, properly, like.
I couldn't do it. I couldn't do what I did then. I couldn't do now. When I started practicing law,
there was no internet. Fax machine was high tech. When I started practicing law, there was no Internet.
Fax machine was high tech.
When I worked in the New York State Senate in the 80s and then found out I didn't want to be a politician, we had carbon paper and white correction tape and stuff like that.
But by the time my son got through high school, the cost of everything exploded with everything.
You had to start paying for TV. You had to start paying for cell phones, cell phones didn't exist.
So the cost of everything has exploded at the same time the quote conveniences.
I mean, I'm lucky. I grew up at a time where, you know, the parents would send you outside and you'd go take some matchbox cars and go play in dirt.
and you'd go take some matchbox cars and go play in dirt.
I mean, we had to figure out.
That's why I started painting and playing a guitar
because we had to make our own entertainment.
It's just not affordable.
Like, if you do what I did and put them first,
it's not very practical.
I, like, think about, like, somebody said to me,
don't you want, you know, a guy who's older than me, I talked to another retired attorney.
He's like, don't you want to have grandkids?
I'm like, if one of them calls not being able barely to provide for themselves and says they're having a child, I'll scare the hell out of me.
Because that's that child is not going to have what every parent would want that child to have a quality of life.
No, Completely understandable.
Yeah, I, I, I agree. I agree with that. I mean, it's, it's just,
I don't see my kids being able, even with educations,
I don't see my kids being able to do at this point in time,
unless they married, you know,
and there were two incomes and the two incomes were thriving and so on and so forth, then they'd have no time.
They'd have to hire somebody to raise their kids.
But I don't see the cost of living to where I don't see my kids being able to do for theirs what I did for mine.
Like my kids, I'm very happy with the fact that I can say my kids don't have a
penny of student debt but it got to a point where I had to walk from being an attorney I couldn't do
it anymore but you know it's like even that even with no student debt payments they still
don't aren't you know making a lot of money, and they're still struggling just to pay.
We're in Florida, and Tampa, Florida is very expensive,
so their money doesn't go very far,
and it's hard for them with educations just to pay rent.
So I don't think it's selfish if you say,
I don't want kids.
I think it's selfish if you can't afford kids in this world,
but you have them anyway.
That's just my opinion.
No, it's a good opinion. If you, it, if you can't, it's,
it's about quality of life. You can't provide it. Why are you, what,
why are you forcing someone to do it? Why,
what's the impetus to force someone to do this if there's,
if they can't provide it, they can't get the job done.
People, some, unfortunately I've seen people over the years have kids because
they wanted kids and they thought it was going to make them feel better until they realized the child has its own mind and its own body and is a human being.
It's a problem.
So, you know, I wouldn't, Emily, undo it at all.
I mean, my kids, my daughter started that Instagram for me.
You know, I do stuff with them as adults.
You know, my son builds all kinds of stuff.
I wouldn't undo it at all, but now I'm going all in on my health
and trying to stay healthy so I can play again and paint again
and do all those other things.
But if you're going to have them, then do it right.
You know, and if you can't do that, you can't basically sacrifice
the better part of your life than don't have kids because then you're doing
them a disservice. And I, and I think that to your point of that, I think that we live in a world
where, where adults do not want to sacrifice their quality of life to have a child. They don't,
they really don't want to do that. I think that, that even though technology has made things, um,
easier and, and a lot more available,
I think it's also propagated a world where, you know, it's, there,
there are different, different forms of, of,
of things at play that make people happy. You know, it's not the family unit,
the nuclear family is gone. I mean, that doesn't exist anymore.
Like when we, when mine were
little, you know, I didn't, I, I pumped all my money into, into like savings for them from when
they were little and I didn't drive the fancy car. I didn't, we didn't have what a lot of the
other people had. And they complained when they were in high school, like my daughter's still
driving a hand-me-down car, but she's happy not to have a car payment. But they, you know, they didn't understand when they were growing up and people seem to have so much.
But a lot of those people, their kids are now drowning in student debt and mine don't have any.
So if you're not willing to like really sacrifice yourself and I mean, I'm just happy I'm healthy enough. Emily has talked to me longer than anyone else because Emily's one of the first persons I met when I started painting and playing again earlier, basically this year.
But I mean, it's like time warp for me.
But fortunately, I could still do these things.
But, you know, I wouldn't undo it.
But you have to be willing to, like, basically sacrifice yourself or think about this.
You don't do it.
And the child has all sorts of problems child then doesn't have a you know a decent foundation and then if you do care
you're stuck with a dysfunctional adult child because you never put the time in when they were
young i i just i i shudder when people say, yo, everybody should have so many kids.
Well, who's paying for them?
Well, that's my whole pushback against pro-life is that, you know, I'm very pro-choice.
And I don't want to make this into a whole thing, guys, but I'm going to say it.
I am very pro-choice.
I have been down these roads. I, and I do believe that if you can, one of the big factors
of having a kid isn't just having a kid. It's also like being able to afford one, like, and also
having the support mechanism. Like I don't have any blood family left. There's nobody. I don't,
if I had a kid, I wouldn't be able to take it to my mom's house and have her
babysit or my dad's or something.
I won't, I don't have the family support around me.
And I think it's a big deal.
And it's a big deal.
It's a very big deal.
And like, I don't have like a sibling.
I don't have anybody.
So if I'm doing this all by myself, I better be rich as fuck to be able to handle like hire a nanny, hire this, hire that, like hire a maid, hire a cook.
Because like I'm not going to be able to do it myself and work a job and like and make the make the money.
You know, how am I going to do that?
There's just no way. When I was working many years ago, when I was working in
government and realized I didn't want to do that when I really finished growing up,
we called things when the government would impose things or the federal government would impose
something on local governments, but they didn't fund it, we should call it an unfunded mandate.
Telling people to have kids but don't have the funds is an unfunded mandate.
Yeah, there you go.
So, you know, telling somebody they have to have a child, but we're not going to, you know, and I'm a Catholic saying this out loud, so don't tell the priest.
But telling somebody they have to have a child, but then they can't get them health care insurance.
They can't get them the clothes. They can't get them the clothes.
They can't get them proper nutrition.
They don't have that support structure, like you just said, for, you know,
the grandparents so that the parent can stay mentally balanced and not feel like
they're trapped.
And, you know, so you can, you guys can ask me 50,000 questions because I've lived a different life,
but I'm back to the high.
I feel like I'm back in high school, you know, painting and playing.
But, you know, I took that long 34, 35-year-old sidetrack.
But I'm very far behind all of you when it comes to, okay,
how do I program this Helix?
Because I don't like the stomp boxes.
I still like the Marshall, but I'm tired of trying to micromanage these little stomp boxes.
So I finally got a Helix, and then it took me like three days of asking Microsoft and asking, watching videos on YouTube to be able to program it.
So I'm like just waking up out
of a frozen state on like the tech side but so i i mean i have a box of albums you know
i don't feel bad i'm 51 years old and i'm i've been in the tech thing the whole the whole time
and there are still parts of it where i'm struggling because it's just you know i think
i could tell you emily emily asked me earlier on when she started doing these spaces about streaming music on here. And I've struggled
for weeks with frigging, uh, voice, uh, voice meter trying to figure out how to stream music
to convince Spotify to go to my sound mixer, this virtual sound mixer, and then play through my
microphone system. And it's just, it just it it i'm just not i'm a
nerd but i'm not that big a nerd unfortunately i taught myself how to play a guitar with a tuning
fork in 1983 this is all like holy crap what do you mean i gotta program this and then when i
bought that helix and they're like well you gotta update the software what the hell are you talking
about i got like 10 boss pedals how do i use this damn thing so i'm coming
up with i'm getting there slowly yeah i i believe it or not it's a bunch of people vilify ai copilot
has been my lifesaver on a lot of more of the intricate technical stuff yeah even if it doesn't
get you all the way there at least get you through the door and you're at least able to know what
button to push without breaking it yeah go ahead no ahead, Emma, I'm sorry. No, chat can teach you a lot.
So can YouTube.
YouTube can teach you a lot when it comes to music programming.
Or fixing a fridge or changing the fridge filter or anything like that.
I'm learning.
Well, see, that's where my problem is.
I'm kind of even old school.
I don't want a video.
Write it down, put it on a frigging website so I can print it and sit it next to me.
It's just –
That's crazy, James.
That's crazy.
I know, but I got this Helix because I wanted –
I didn't want the pedals all over the place that I trip over,
and they sound great on low volume, and then you get in a gig,
and the pedals – and then it sounds like horrific.
I want more consistency.
But then on the Helix, to go get the manual, it's like 87 pages want more consistency but then on the helix you had to go
get the the manual it's like 87 pages you have to download it i start reading it i'm like no so i
just started watching videos instead no i understand no that's just me that's my it's just
nothing nothing drives me crazy and i'm trying to figure something out and then somebody starts
going talking about liking and subscribing it's like, asshole, just get to the freaking point.
But Emily, I can cook.
I made a hell of a baked ziti tray that I took to some friends yesterday.
Well, that's good.
I grew up in New York watching a mother use a pasta cranker on Fridays for Sunday.
So I know how to cook.
I know how to clean.
And, you know, I brought a nice baked ziti tray to people who are from the South and probably aren't used to having that. Well, it's been a pleasure having you up. And
thanks for telling us about the ways when you were growing up, because I think that a lot of
us in the room just, I mean, we just are experiencing life a lot differently. And it's
interesting to hear it from a different perspective of like
where life was. And I think that, you know, just even moving forward technology with how fast it's
like, you know, growing and expanding our universe, you know, I think that we're going to find that
even some of the things we're talking about today are going to be outdated in even a couple of
months. I mean, technology moves so quickly. And like, that's what I was saying again about the de-aging
of the cells and things like that. We're like, oh yeah, that'll happen in like 30 years. No,
dude, it's going to happen a lot sooner than you think it is. Like the craziness of how AI
can, you know, can basically solve the problems that we have been like lurking on for so many
years because our brains are so slow. It can just process and solve these problems in minutes now,
minutes, guys. And it's, and so we're going to see an explosion of technology and healthcare and in sectors that are going to be very useful for us very, very soon,
if not already. And so just be on the lookout of that. You guys, I got to run because I got to
get my taxes out today before I get hit with a big penalty. But yeah, so I just want to say
thank you guys for stopping in and joining us and being here.
And every Monday we do these music in the mob.
We talk about the music news, technology news of the past week.
And we also go into hot topics like space exploration, apparently, and de-aging yourself.
So, like, I don't know.
Like, we talk about a lot of shit.
So, like, if you want to come and talk with us, please feel free to tell your friends and stop by.
We also record these spaces.
So if you could do me a favor, hit that like, comment, share button on your lower right-hand screen, the purple button.
Make sure you share it with your friends.
Drop it in groups.
People can listen in after these spaces are done.
And invite some people next week, and we will see you all next week.
Thank you to Christiana, William James, Tech, Innovative, Darius.
I see you in the room, like Ali, like everybody that's here.
Thank you so much for tapping in.
And we will see you next week.
Bye, guys.
Thanks, Emily.
Thanks.
Bye. Thank you.
