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🎙NEARWEEK Feb DeFi Space: Options? Private Shards? Bonds? & More
Recorded: Feb. 3, 2023 Duration: 1:14:52Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome back. We are having yet another monthly DeFi space with Mere Week, or February. And we also have, as always, an excellent lineup of folks. We have Spin, Calimero, Metapool, Federer, and Linear joining us. And the title of the space will be Mere DeFi Headliners, Options, Bonds, Private Shards, and more.
And very accordingly, we have a couple recent bangers from the Mere DeFi ecosystem, so we'll get into all of them. Hey, Sandy. Hey, Ivan. How's it going?
Hello, hello. It's not bad.
Hello, hello.
Go, Ivan. Go, Ivan. Go, Ivan.
We're doing fine. Everything is nice.
Perfect. How are you, Anuthi? Stater, right?
Yeah. Hi, Rym. I'm great. Hi, everyone. Great to be here talking to all of you. I think a wonderful crowd and very excited to be hearing updates from all our partners. Always excited to be a part of this community. So thanks for hosting us, guys.
Of course. Happy to have you. I see Claudio in the audience, and I think we're just going to be waiting for Stanley to join, and then we can get started. Oh, and we also have Andre Perfect.
Hey, Claudio. Or Andre.
Yeah. Hello. Can you hear me?
Yep. Crystal clear.
Oh, great. Thank you.
All right. While we wait for our last two speakers to join us, I'll just set the mood for the space. So this February DeFi space, we have, as mentioned in the title, a couple headliners from the Near DeFi ecosystem, and we want to get into all of them a little bit at a time.
Today, we have two main themes running across the space options, and LSD, liquid staking derivatives. So on the options side, we have SPIN, one of Near's top order book protocols, which just launched the first options on Near, and it's on Testnet.
We also have Calimera Network, which just announced their $8.5 million raise for private shards on Near, and they're working with SPIN, so that will be pretty interesting to look at.
For LSDs, we have Metapool, Lanier, and Stater. All of them are Near-based liquid staking protocols, and they've had recent product launches and releases recently.
Metapool and Lanier have launched bonds, again, first on Near, and Stater is back with a couple key updates on their product and partnerships as well.
So, without further ado, I think we can get started with introductions. We'll go around one by one. Please tell us who you are, what you do, and maybe give us a one-liner from your project. So, Claudio, if you want to get started.
Hello, good morning, buenos dias, good evening, good day, good afternoon, wherever you are. My name is Claudio. I'm co-founder of Metapool.
We're the first liquid staking solution on Near and Aurora. We've been on Mainnet for more than 19 months, and yeah, we're building products on top of our LSD, which is staked Near, or ST Near.
One of them is MetaYield, which is a crowdfunding platform leveraging liquid staking derivatives. And the second one is MetaBonds, which we just launched a few weeks back. Really excited about that, which is a secondary bond market for the Near protocol.
Fantastic. Andrei and then Ivan from Spin. Please go ahead.
So, hello, everybody. My name is Andrew. I'm working as a product architect in Spin for more than two years. In general, I like to create some ideas, some product features. I think how to calculate different fees, for example, how it should work.
I can also like participate in creating incentive programs and manual. Also, I keep an eye on the other DeFi protocols, where we can collaborate with somebody, and what cool features we actually can take from them. That's all. Thank you.
Hi, everyone. I'm Ivan from Spin, doing all things business at Spin, so happy for this conversation.
Perfect. Anuthi, do you want to go for Stator?
Yeah, sure. Hi, everyone. I'm Anuthi. I'm the head of Terra, Near, and Aptos at Stator. Basically, I look into all the blockchains based on the Rust and Move language.
For those who don't know Stator, we are a multi-chain liquid staking solution, currently present across six different blockchains with close to $150 million plus in TVL, and very excited to be part of the Near ecosystem.
And have some exciting updates around innovative products that we have introduced in terms of validator-specific staking, also a bunch of product integrations to share, and some exciting alpha around the SD governance that has gone live with our native token.
Brilliant. And Sandy from Calimero, please go ahead.
Hi, everybody. So I was the first infrastructure engineer at Near, and currently I'm the CEO of Calimero, which is a sidechain built on top of Near and Aurora, which focuses on privacy and scalability.
Nice. And we also have Stanley from Linear. We're having a little bit of trouble getting him on as a speaker. Oh, perfect. Just in time, Stanley. Do you want to let us know who you are, what you do, and what Linear is all about?
Yes, sure. Thanks, Drew. Hey, everyone. I'm Stanley from Linear, and also Cornerstone, and also Phoenix Bonds.
So I'm a core contributor out of three projects. So basically a little bit about Linear. So Linear is one of the biggest looking-looking protocol on there.
And we recently launched Phoenix Bonds, which is a pretty unique bonding mechanism, which aims at providing principal protection and also perpetually amplified yield.
I'll just keep it short because I think I'm going to answer more questions. So yeah, pretty happy to be here.
Great. Great to have you. Well, let's get started.
I want to go one by one into each of the projects and try to go as deep as possible within the given timeframe.
We'll start with Spin. And I want to say, first of all, congratulations to the team on the testnet launch.
This is super exciting for the Near DeFi ecosystem.
And let's start by defining the concept of options and especially options within the context of DeFi.
If we look back in recent DeFi trends, perps and options have definitely been the wave with the likes of GMX and DYDX leading the former and the race for DeFi options currently ongoing.
I think the main idea, the main race is like who's going to be the Robin Hood of crypto, right?
With regards to defining the concept, what are options in DeFi?
How do they work? And I think most importantly for a lot of listeners, how do they actually differ from perps?
Whoever feels comfortable, Andrew, Ivan, please go ahead.
Yeah, I will explain to you. First of all, it's very important that I will explain it in a nutshell completely because actually options is a very tough and difficult and big topic.
And if you want to like to deep dive in it, I think we will have to spend here maybe several months at least.
But we have just, I don't know, maybe 10, 50 minutes, 50 minutes, I mean.
So in general options are derivative products as a perps, but they work in a completely different way.
In perps, you actually do the same as with spot assets.
You can buy it, you can sell it, and you can do all of it with leverage.
That's what Aperpetual gives to you.
But with options, there are things much more sophisticated, I would say.
So this is our products which give option buyer right to buy assets, but not the obligation.
For some price, defined before, it's called strike price.
And to some particular time, it's called expiration date.
And option seller has the obligation to sell this asset or buy this asset for strike price in this particular time.
But why should option seller take this obligation?
Because he got premium for this.
Let's, I will explain it with some, like, small example.
For example, I buy from you call option for NIR with strike price $3 and expiration will be the first of the match.
And I pay you some premium for that, let it be, for example, $0.10 for one option.
In case, near price will be higher in the first of March, let it be $3.5, it means that option expired in the money.
And I will use my right to buy it from you for $3 and I will sell it on the market for $3.5 or I won't sell it.
And I will make a profit here.
But in case near price on the expiration date is below $3, it means that option expired out of the money and I won't settle my option.
So you will get your premium or $0.10 and I get nothing.
So what's very important?
If you are a buyer of options, it's a bet for price increasing or decreasing in case of put options.
But you can't lose more than premium which you paid and your potential profit is very high.
If you are a seller, you always get stable money cash flow from selling options.
You get premium, I mean.
But in case it expires in the money, you will have to pay to buyer.
And in some cases, you might pay a lot.
And here, like the last important point is cash settlement method.
In example above, buyer really have to pay for some assets.
For example, I would have to pay for you for near $3 for each year.
I get this asset and sell it to the market or not sell.
But in case of cash settlement, buyer and seller just change the difference of prices with each other.
So in this particular example, I would just get $0.5 for each settled option as a difference between strike price and expiration price.
And we here in SPIN, in our decentralized option vaults, will use this particular type of settlement for options.
Okay, great.
Thank you so much.
I think you gave us like a really great overview of all of the aspects that are involved in options, especially DeFi options.
So correct me if I'm wrong.
What I'm getting on a very high level is that when we talk about options in DeFi, we're talking about an agreement or a contract between two parties.
Essentially, there's the buyer, there's the seller.
And then it's structured with an expiration date.
And you have the option to either sell something at a very specific price or buy that asset at the agreed price.
And you have a date and you have the option to do so, but you can always not exercise it or exercise it.
That's up to you.
And for this, within that period, up until the expiration date, you have to pay a premium to the seller until you have the time.
The time comes for you to exercise this right.
So would that be the main gist of what a DeFi option is?
In general, yes, actually, all like the mechanic of options was taken from traditional finance.
But of course, it was transferred to DeFi because everything is works for smart contracts and not from some, I don't know, back end subcompany.
Yes, in general, in a nutshell, that's right.
OK, could you walk us through the two different types of options?
As I understand, and this is also the case for SPIN, there are call options and there are put options.
I'd like to know what are these two options.
And then more specifically, I'd love to learn in which case would a trader use a call option versus a put option?
Like what is the strategy and benefit that is associated with each of them?
Yeah, of course.
So call option, it gives a buyer right to buy an asset for defined price at defined time.
And yes, seller of option always have obligation in case of call option to sell an asset for buyer.
And in case of put option, he has obligation to buy it from buyer for some particular price.
So, again, in a nutshell, trader buys call option if he bets on the market grow.
And for put options, trader buys if he bets on the market, this market will go down.
For seller, for example, if he thinks that price won't change or will go down, he sells put options.
And if he thinks, oh, no, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Yes, so if a seller of options thinks that price won't change or will go down, he sells call options.
And if he thinks that price won't change or will go up, he sells put options, yes.
So I repeat, this is quite a natural explanation.
In real life, this instrument is much more difficult.
There are, like, different, I don't know, things like rigs, hedging, delta natural positions,
different difficult strategies included in, I don't know, different options with different strikes,
different option days, et cetera, et cetera.
But I think it's not, like, the time for explanation of that.
Of course, I mean, I think it's great that we stick to the fundamentals.
Based on this, like, so, you know, real essence, the real foundation of options, as well,
just like for most other derivatives, is that you can make a bet on the market movements,
on a volatile asset.
There are different ways to do this, options being one of them.
I want to understand a little bit more about the appeal of options from your perspective,
but also because, you know, both in TradFi and in DeFi, options have seen quite a boom
as of late.
I want to understand why someone would choose to, you know, either long or short using options
rather than something like perps, or simply holding certain assets and not selling it if
you think it's going to go long, or just buying them cheap or selling them at a price
when you think it's going to go down.
Like, what is the appeal of options from your perspective?
Yes, okay, again, in a nutshell.
So, first of all, options is, like, more aggressive bet to the market move in comparison to the
futures.
But at the same time, if you're a buyer, I mean, you have limited risk.
You can't lose more than that particular premium which you paid for this option.
Like, so it's, yes, it might be some kind of aggressive bet on the market movement.
For example, in the past case, when, like, BTC grew up from 16 till 23K, yes, if you would,
I don't know, buy option for 20K, and they were quite cheap because of low implied volatility,
yes, you would get much more profit in comparison to buying simple perpetual of your usual future.
So, the second case, it's, yes, you can manage your entire portfolio here.
For example, if you have some kind of big portfolio, but you think that market will crash a lot in some
near time, you can hedge your portfolio with buying put option.
In case market goes down, you will get profit with this put option, but you will lose some money
due to regulation of your own portfolio, and in case it won't crash, or it even go up, you will lose only some premium.
With, if you, for example, if you would use Perfum hedging it, you would lose a lot in case of price is growing.
So, yes, I will repeat it, you have limited risks, and that's very, like, good feature.
And there are, actually, a lot of much more sophisticated, difficult strategies in options.
I will, like, make small one example.
If you think that price of an asset will grow, but not a lot, for example, near will grow from 2.5 to 3,
you can buy, I'm sorry, call option with 2.5 strike price, and sell option with strike price free.
And this strategy is called bull spread.
In this case, you spend less, because you sold this option with strike price free and got some premium,
but your upside is limited.
If price goes up beyond $3, you won't get this upside above it.
So, in general, yes, you can use options for more sophisticated bets on the market.
If price goes up or down a lot, or you think that it will be changed to a particular price,
or you think that price won't change at all.
The most important here is that options give you a kind of flexibility in your bets,
because you can, yes, create in your mind any, like, different strategies or any, I don't know,
move and construct some kind of option constructions for any, what you need.
And regarding option sellers, for them, it's more like a business.
Usually option sellers always sell options, they get premium, and they hedge all their risks,
usually with buying perpetuals.
And option sellers always have, like, contemporary cash flow in premiums,
but, yes, if price will go against option seller bets, they can lose a lot of money.
Yeah, I think you gave a really great overview or a summary of all of the points that make options really appealing.
So I think some of the points that I picked up on is, like, the capital efficiency
and the fact that you can make more aggressive bets on the market
and the flexibility that comes with utilizing options within your trading strategy.
And I think it's super interesting, and I think this is one of the biggest appeals for a lot of people
when they partake in options is that it's interesting from the risk management and hedging perspective
because, you know, as a buyer, you're making a call, but at best, you know,
if the markets go in a direction that you don't like it, at best, at worst,
what you're losing is the premium that you paid,
and then you don't have to execute on the option that you bought in in the first place.
So that's super interesting.
Let's talk about options on spin specifically.
The options vault is first of your automated investment products, I understand.
And I would love to hear how do these DOV or DeFi option vaults work?
And I'd love to hear about the thought process that went behind the design.
Would it be Andrew or Ivan who would be answering this?
Yeah, I will answer.
So, again, sorry, it's all in a nutshell.
So, first of all, automated investment products are products where user can simply put their capital
and it will be involved in some market strategy.
It doesn't require anything, any movements from user.
They just put money in and smart contracts will do anything instead of users.
And decentralized option vaults is just part of automated investment products.
So, here in DOVs, we have, like, two sides.
First of all, it's our DOV investors.
And these are people who just put their money in DOV.
And this money are used as collateral for writing and selling options for some assets.
Which one?
It depends on the DOV.
So, for example, if we use covered call near vault, we use near as an asset and we sell call options.
So, investors put money in the vault, it writes and sells options, and people get premium as a yield.
And I would like to point it out that it's a real yield.
It's not some yield from token incentive.
So, we have, yes, investors as option sellers, and we have the other side as option buyers.
There are people who can come to spin and buy these options as a bet that market will grow in covered call case.
In this case, if price will go up above expiration price, option buyers will get near from the vault.
So, there are, yes, two groups of people who are involved, and they actually bet against each other.
And regarding design, why we, like, these DOVs were created.
And honestly, we, like, weren't first in this area.
Yeah, they are, like, it was Ribbon who created first for Ethereum, let's be honest.
So, actually, this is a quite usual strategy in traditional finance.
When there is some fund who raises money from investors and uses it for selling out-of-the-money options,
which are far away from current price, and these funds collect premiums for investors, and Zao does the same in DeFi.
But there is, of course, no such difficult requirements as in traditional finance.
You don't have any, I don't know, minimum investment amounts.
You don't have to be a professional trader.
You don't have to have some license for it.
Any user actually can participate in it quite easily from both sides.
You can invest in those, or you can be an option buyer.
Yeah, I think the points that you make point to what I really liked and noticed about when I tried out the testnet,
and I was reading the article about the testnet launch,
which is that there seems to be a very deliberate focus to try to make options as a trading strategy as accessible
and as easy to use for everyday users.
Would you say that that was a deliberate design choice that was reflected from the team when you were designing options?
I'm sorry, could you please repeat your question?
Yeah, I'm just trying to ask, was it intentional from the team that you wanted to make options as accessible
and as easy to use as possible for everyday users?
Yeah, honestly, in the team we just understand that this automated product strategy is kind of one of the parts of the future in DeFi
because, yes, there are not a lot of sophisticated users in DeFi, let's be honest,
and we have to provide some services for people who just want to invest money to something.
And there are quite a lot of options of it,
and those are just only the first step for automated strategies.
Of course, there will be much more of it in the future, and we will do it, but yes, we have to have some time for that.
Yeah, I think for everyone listening, if you are interested both in, like, if you thought that DeFi was difficult,
if you thought derivatives trading was especially more difficult and not for you,
because it's usually for sophisticated traders,
and you're also interested in, you know, if you're following crypto Twitter and you've been hearing all about real yield,
because it sounds like this is what is being generated through the options vault on spin,
because the yield is derived from real trading rather than, you know, inflationary tokenomics,
then this is something definitely that you should be checking out.
Is it correct that it's live on testnet right now?
What's available to use, and when can we expect mainnet?
Well, yes, that's right.
We've already launched vaults in testnet.
We're always glad to see you there.
We would like if you visit our testnet on Spintosphere and test it and report of us if you find some mistakes.
And we're working hard for delivering the best possible product for mainnet.
Release in mainnet will take place in late February or early in March.
So we will wait for you.
And so I remind you that actually all participants in Dove as investors in mainnet will participate in our Erdra program.
So there is a chance, yes, to raise money, not just from the yield from options like a premium,
but also some spin from our airdrop.
Brilliant.
Well, thank you so much, Andrew, for the explanation.
Let's now move on.
And obviously, if you were interested, try out options on spin.fi.
Let's move on to Calimero.
Sandy, you're up.
Again, congratulations.
Calimero came out with some great news recently.
You had a very successful fundraiser, it seems.
What does the $8.5 million price tag signify for you?
And what will it go towards?
I mean, first of all, thank you.
The $8.5 million, most of the money will go towards hiring more people.
So with that money, we already expanded the team.
When we started, Mario and I was only two people.
Currently, we are 16 people, a mostly technical team.
Also, we are soon launching the developer edition of Calimero.
So everybody will be able to create an account and start building on top of a private chart.
And soon after that, if everything goes right, we're going to have, we finalize the security audits.
Everything is ready for also the mainnet launch.
Currently, it's going to be NIR only.
But in the future, we are talking to Aurora people and we are working on EVM integration.
So essentially, Aurora Cloud on top of Calimero.
So both Wasm and EVM support will be there.
But yeah, it will go mostly to, you know, engineering, a bit of marketing, I would say, just to, like, get the word out, spread it out, talking at conferences, probably some sponsorships, and onboarding as many projects in the future as possible.
Right.
So building, in short.
Yeah, building, essentially, yes.
All right, cool.
Let's get into what Calimero is all about.
We know that it has something to do with private shards.
First off, we start with the fact that NIR is a sharded blockchain.
Could you give us a high-level description of what private shards are?
Yes.
So essentially, what a private shard is, it's a sidechain built on top of NIR, which allows you to do cross shard contract calls between the private shard and mainnet,
or any other private shard.
And it also allows you to transfer assets, fungible tokens and non-fungible tokens between them.
That's kind of the short TLDR.
Okay, great.
So starting from there, maybe we can start by explaining where the necessity or the demand for private shards come from.
Yeah, there's like two main things, which are problems in the blockchain space that we are trying to solve.
One is the privacy aspect.
Not every single transaction and user wants their information to be public.
So this can be prevented by using a private shard, and only the members of the shard can see what is going on.
On the other side, it's also scalability.
So with private shards, you get zero gas fees.
Inside the network, you only pay gas fees if you do either transfers or cross shard contract calls between mainnet and the shard.
So these are like the two main use cases.
We see this in like two other perspectives.
Like one is Web3 companies who need either scalability or privacy.
So, you know, DAOs, gaming, big entertainment use cases.
And on the other side, we want to onboard more Web2 companies who are kind of not willing to join the Web3 space
because they don't want their user data to be public to everyone.
Yeah, so I think there's like a lot to unpack here.
Immediately, what's super interesting about the concept of private shards is that, first of all, like technically speaking,
it's one of the things that is possible because of Nier's very unique technical architecture, which is sharding.
And secondly, it also very much aligns with Nier's mission to become the chain for mass adoption to onboard, you know, the billion users thing.
And the way that you mentioned is that, like, even though as blockchain lovers, as crypto people, we love the idea of full transparency,
there are also very specific use cases that require privacy.
And especially if you want to appeal and onboard, you know, Web2 users and Web2 companies,
this is also a major concern for them because they don't like or can't have all of their information and transactions be public to everyone all the time.
So it seems like private shards make Nier even more flexible than it is to accommodate for everyone in almost every use case.
Yes.
Yes.
Great.
Well, I would love to learn about Calimero's role in all of this.
Would you say that you're the developer team that makes the, you know, whether it's the running of the shard, onboarding, all of these aspects possible?
How would you characterize what Calimero does exactly?
I mean, first of all, we are building the core technology of the private shard itself.
But on top of that, we are building a set of products for making, we call it the AWS of private sharding.
So, like, we are building a software as a, like, set of software as a service tools for users to be easily onboarded into Web3 development,
but also managing their private shard.
That means, you know, making deployments of private shards easier.
So if you take, for example, like, you know, Polygon Edge or Avalanche subnets, spinning them up, managing them up is very hard.
So we build a console which allows you to do this very easily.
On top of that, we provide a set of features for, you know, managing the bridge, deploying oracles, deploying custom event alerts,
everything a developer would need to build a, you know, product and really focus on the product rather than the infrastructure
and, you know, the Web3 problems and, like, re-implementing every feature by themselves.
And what would you say if someone was interested in learning more about the specific examples of companies or projects
or use cases that are enabled through private shards, whether it's for privacy purposes or scalability purposes,
could you possibly give us some examples about use cases and projects that we will see through Colimero?
Yes. So essentially, I think we heavily started investing in our content marketing.
So we released two articles, actually two articles for use cases.
One is gaming use cases. The other one is how DAOs can use it.
But we plan to extend it in the following weeks.
So the goal is that every one to two weeks we have, you know, an article explaining how private shard can be used
and really focus, you know, on the educational aspect of, you know, what sharding is, what private sharding is,
what are the benefits and how developers and companies can use it.
So I think that's kind of the goal, education through our blog and social media.
Also, we're going to start, like, some YouTube channel explaining and showing developers how to use it.
But, I mean, anybody, like, I would, like, do a very simple classifier.
Do you need privacy in Web3? Yes. Do you need scalability? Yes.
Then probably it's a good thing to reach out to us and see if there's a fit or not.
Okay. Well, let's continue on that.
Let's say I'm a builder. I'm looking to build my project.
I'm concerned with privacy. I'm concerned with scalability.
There are many options when it comes to, let's say, at least with regards to scaling solutions.
You could build on an L2. You could build on, you know, these modular chains.
You could build even your own L1 or build on an app chain versus, you know, what would you say to a builder that is looking for a home?
Why should they choose to build a private shard as opposed to building on some of these other side chains, L2s, or other kinds of solutions?
I mean, there's very many aspects of it. Why would you use it?
For example, like, all the rollups and other app chains don't have, you know, a realistic bridge.
So, like, transfer times between, you know, app chains and rollups are very high.
So, like, if your user experiences that you have to wait seven days for a finality or, like, even several hours, I think that's pretty bad.
In our case, you can do, like, transfers immediately in, like, five to ten seconds.
You can execute cross-out contract calls between the shards as well immediately.
So, I think that's one of the, like, benefits.
The other thing is, like, you don't have to manage your own infrastructure.
You don't have to bootstrap your network.
You click a few buttons.
You connect your cloud or you deploy on our cloud for, you know, first testing and deployment.
So, like, it's easy to spin it up.
On the other side, we support first, like, Wasm.
So, if you're a Nier developer and you want to deploy Wasm contracts, that is, you know, out of the box.
And in the future, we're going to have also Aurora Cloud support.
So, that means that EVM chains will work as well.
So, I think there's, like, yeah, these are kind of the main reasons I can think of right now.
So, like, you know, full automation, easy barrier to, like, no barrier to entry.
Yeah, and then the kind of built-in composability, because you would have these cross-shard or cross-contract calls with all of the other shards that exist within the Nier and Aurora ecosystems.
Yes, yes, yes.
Okay, great.
I think on that point, we can kind of get into one of the things that I was curious about is some time ago, we read about Spin and Calimero working together.
And I would love to learn more about the nature of this partnership.
And Sandy and Andrew, Ivan, all of you are free to answer from your perspective.
Tell us more about what is to come between Spin and Calimero.
Is the idea that Spin is essentially building your own private DeFi shard through this partnership?
Yeah, so, the partnership was agreed already more than six months ago.
So, it came to us very naturally, something we would like to do, because privacy is very relevant for many institutional players.
So, commit to either spot trading or perps or options.
Privacy is highly relevant.
30% of total trading volume in TradFi is done through Darkpool.
So, essentially, a TradFi version of privacy.
And we believe that this will also be one of the main themes for DeFi.
And, yeah, so that's why we chose Calimero.
I mean, it's a natural fit for us.
We already deployed on Nier.
Using Calimero, it requires minimal technical improvements to just migrate the products on Calimero
and enable privacy and also more customization.
And I think, also, go ahead, Sandy.
I can just add as a side note that, I mean, we are seeing, we are generally seeing more and more upchains
related to DeFi, specifically.
And the main reason is, like, I mean, you get your full-owned shard, you get privacy, but you also get scalability from it.
Instead of being bottlenecked by, you know, the mainnet congestion, you can just have your own shard just for DeFi-related things.
So, you could have, like, one shard just for options, one shard just for perps, one shard just for something else.
And, like, you get, essentially, infinite scalability through that.
Yeah, that's amazing.
And, obviously, I think for users of SPIN, especially institutional traders, just like Yvonne mentioned,
not only is privacy a key concern, it is also scalability would be big because you need lightning-fast transaction speeds
and you need very cheap costs.
You need that scalability and throughput for an operation like SPIN.
So, I'm very fascinated and very much looking forward to this.
Would we already have a timeline for when we can see this realized?
Yeah.
So, now we are fully focused on launching the DOVs.
They are ready now.
And, so, we have, we will have, once we launch on mainnet, more, I would say, time to focus on launching on Calimero.
And, I think it will, we aim to be one of the first projects, which is live.
And, also, looking, like, very closely on the progress of the Calimero team.
And, we would be happy to be, like, live by summer.
So, this would be, I think, a very realistic timeline.
Very nice.
We'll definitely have to have both of you back once it goes live to get into it.
Certainly.
Okay, cool.
Okay, cool.
Thank you so much, Andrew, Yvonne, and Sandy, for telling us all about SPIN and Calimero.
Let's now move on to the LSDs and, or liquid-seeking derivatives.
NIR's three LSD protocols are with us today.
They've been shipping left and right.
And, it's time for us to catch up with them.
I want to start off with Stator.
Anuthi, I must have been very busy for Stator lately, as Stator is a multi-chain LSD protocol.
And, that also means that with the Shanghai update on the Ethereum side, there's a lot of hype and development, I'm sure, that's going on on the Stator Ethereum labs.
But, that doesn't mean Stator has been quite on the NIR side.
Do you want to walk us through some of the developments and recent milestones that Stator NIR has seen?
Absolutely, Ram.
Thank you for setting the preamble for this.
Yeah, so, we have been, you know, moving at rocket speed, all guns blazing, basically.
And, a lot of exciting stuff has happened on NIR.
I will also share the broader vision of Stator and where we are moving as a multi-chain liquid-staking platform.
But, let me begin with two very exciting product updates at Stator.
The first is a state-of-the-art, literally first-of-its-kind validator-specific staking program.
So, in our deep user surveys, we realized that a lot of users have a strong preference for certain validators based on the trust they have established with those validators,
as well as their transparent, you know, performance and consistent performance metrics.
So, Stator has launched an exclusive validator-specific staking program where users can stake with two of their favorite validators,
that is Zavudel and Stakin, and benefit from the trust and performance of those validators while getting access to NIRx,
which is our liquid-staking derivative.
And, all users need to do is take via the dedicated UTM of these two validators to take advantage of this program.
And, we'll encourage all of you to attend our, check out our socials for details on this program.
The second exciting product is lock-up contracts staking.
So, a lot of NIR is currently lying in locked-up contracts and is not earning yield if users do not choose to do native staking.
And, we are just broadening the opportunity for yield on this locked-up contract, which is your unvested NIR tokens,
so that users can get a strong passive source of income while staking with best-in-class stator validators
that will diversify their stake across all the high-performing validators that we carefully select based on a multi-layer criteria.
So, these are the two product updates from our end.
And, in terms of integrations, we just went live with our integration with Origami.
So, NIRX is now live on Origami as of yesterday, and so users can now earn, you know, double-digit alpha through leverage staking on Origami.
We are also live on Burrow, which happened just a few weeks ago, and excited to be going live on Bastion just in a couple of weeks from now.
So, you know, as of today, we have logged in all the major integrations across NIR and Aurora,
be it the DEXs, Refinance, Jumbo Exchange, and Trisolaris, or leveraged farming such as Pembroke,
and even order book DEXs like Spin and Tonic.
And, I already covered the lending protocols, which are Burrow and Origami, as well as Bastion, which will be coming pretty soon.
So, literally a plethora of opportunities for users to maximize their yield farming opportunities, leveraging NIRX.
The third thing I want to cover is regarding our SD token.
So, a lot of people who would have interacted with NIRX know that they earn rewards in SD, which is Steeda's native token.
It derives value from Steeda's activity across the six blockchains that it's present on.
So, a great, very well-diversified asset to hold.
And very happy to announce that the SD governance is now live, so users can go to our DAF and click on the governance icon to get information on all the NIR-related topics that are under discussion and up for voting as a part of the SD governance.
So, please do check that out, guys.
And the SD staking is coming pretty soon alongside the ETH launch.
And to sum it up, you know, as Steeda, we are really moving at rocket speed.
We are currently present across six different blockchains.
The goal is to be present across 10 different blockchains by Q2 of this year.
And the ETHX launch is, you know, just around the corner for this Q1.
And so is the launch on Aptos and Sui.
So, super pumped to be a part of this growth story.
And would urge all the users to check out our progress and updates on our social, which is stator__near.
And feel free to DM us if you need any help from our end.
Okay, wow.
That has, you have a lot going on.
It definitely seems like you've been moving at rocket speed.
So, just to kind of recap very quickly, from the NEAR side, it seems that there have been significant improvements on the experience side for people interacting with Stator as a liquid staking protocol.
So, now that you're able to stake your tokens in your locked up contract, you can also choose the kind of validators that you want to stake with.
And you've also expanded presence for NEARX, which is the liquid staking derivative for the NEAR token.
And NEARX is now on Origami.
And you're also expecting it to see it on Bastion.
So, on the Aurora side as well.
So, that's very exciting.
And it's also exciting to hear that SC token governance has gone up.
You mentioned that you wanted to share a little bit about, you know, what stator as a whole in its entirety is aiming at where it's going.
Including stator on NEAR and stator, you know, in all of its protocols.
What's next?
What's on the roadmap?
And what is really the ultimate vision for the rest of the year?
Yeah.
So, the ultimate vision, RIM, is to really be a leading multi-chain liquid staking solution across all the major POS blockchains.
And for those who are following our socials, they would know that a lot of buzz is now around our e-text launch.
So, that is scheduled for the Q1 of this year.
We are also looking at launching on Aptos and Sui, which is planned for the Q1 of this year as well.
So, a lot happening in Q1.
And the goal is to be present across 10 different blockchains by the Q2 of this year.
So, some of the blockchains we have been exploring are in the Cosmos network.
And over and above this, we are also looking at product extensions such as B2C Yield and also, you know, investment walls.
So, those are also under the works in terms of overall scope expansion.
So, please stay tuned to our socials to learn all about it.
We are currently in works for some of them, but the updates will come pretty soon.
Thank you so much, Anuti.
I'm very excited and will look forward to all of the upcoming updates.
And best of luck with the e-text launch as well.
Thank you so much, RIM.
And speaking of, you know, new products, roadmap, and the other two liquid staking protocols that we have here today,
let's move on to Linear and Metapool.
So, they have come back with two new products, and coincidentally, they're both Bonds.
And we are seeing on Linear for the first time Bond products to go live.
But they're also both each taking very different approaches to these Bond products.
So, let's get into each of them.
Stanley, I want to talk to you.
First of all, congrats on the Phoenix Bonds launch.
Would you be able to give us a high-level overview of what Phoenix Bonds is?
And please, please, please, I want to ask, could you give us also the, explain it to me, like, I'm five version of it,
because I really want to understand it, but I don't think I fully got it yet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thanks, RIM.
I'll try.
I'll try my best.
I know it looks complicated, you know, at the first time, but actually, it's quite simple, you know, in the core.
So, basically, Phoenix Bonds, so by Phoenix Bonds, we're trying to create a perpetually amplified yield without sacrificing your principle.
So, and to be specific, so with Linear and Phoenix Bonds, what we're creating is an amplified Linear.
So, right now, Linear APY is 10% because the native staking reward of Near blockchain is 10%, right?
So, but by PNear, we're trying to create an amplified version of that, and right now, the APY of PNear is 300%, which means it's 30 times bigger than Linear.
So, it's amplified 30 times.
So, how are we achieving that, right?
So, I think, you know, what helps will be a brief, you know, walkthrough of the protocol.
So, basically, we have three buckets in fixed bonds.
So, PNear token, it actually represents your claim, your share of the reserve bucket.
And the other two buckets are pending bucket and permanent bucket.
So, you know, it's a bond, so you can bond, right?
So, basically, what people do is you go to Phoenix Bonds and you bond your Near.
So, you bond your Near, and then you just click Bond, and then you will start accumulating balance of PNear.
And at the same time, all Near tokens on Phoenix Bonds are staked on Linear protocol, generating staking reward.
But all those staking rewards are directed to one bucket, and that's the reserve bucket.
And that's where the amplified yield comes from.
So, right now, because we're still quite early, you know, in the reserve bucket, there are, you know, a little bit less than 22K Near token.
But in the pending bucket, there are almost 700K Near token bonds pending there.
And in the permanent bucket, we have a little bit more than 6K Near.
So, in total, we have almost, you know, we have 700K Near token.
And all those staking rewards generated by those 700K Near tokens are directed to reserve bucket, which only has less than 22K Near token.
And at the same time, PNear is your share of the reserve bucket.
And that's why, you know, you get that huge application, because, you know, it's 700 versus 22.
So, that's where that, you know, 300% APR comes from.
Of course, it's not going to always be that high, you know, with, you know, with time going on, there will be more people coming to bond, and there will be more arbitrage, and there will be more people, you know, claiming their PNear.
So, the APY won't be this high forever, but it's always going to be higher than a vanilla staking derivative of Near.
So, it's always going to be higher than linear.
So, it's always going to be amplified.
So, I think that's the simplest version of explanation of how Phoenix bonds work.
So, one thing is that, so, after bonding Near, you will see the virtual balance of PNear accumulating on your front page.
So, and you can cancel your bond anytime, which means you can get your principal back anytime.
So, let's say, you know, if you, you know, if you just need your Near tokens back somehow, you can just, you know, just cancel the bond, and you'll just get back a linear token.
And then you can unstake them on linear, and then you'll get your Near token in about 50 hours.
But if you choose to claim those PNear tokens, then you'll get PNear tokens.
But your Near input will be transferred from pending bucket to reserve bucket and permanent bucket.
So, you're basically, you know, foregoing those Near tokens in exchange for PNear.
And so, there are, you know, a couple strategies here that you can use.
So, you know, the simplest thing is actually, you know, you just bond Near, and then wait for, you know, probably two weeks or more.
And then you think you have accumulated enough PNear, you know, which is, you know, according to a bonding curve, which is, you know, shown very clearly on the front page.
So, if you think you have accumulated enough PNear, you can just, you know, claim the bond and just hold the PNear.
Because PNear right now, you know, the floor price is going so fast because of the 300% APR.
So, you'll just be holding a super boosted linear.
And if you want, you can just hold that forever if you're, you know, a long-term Near holder.
Or you can sell those PNear for profit for Near, and then rebond them in FedExponse, basically compounding your yield.
And also, you can just, you know, provide a query of PNear-Near pair on Red Finance, which right now has 30% APR, not in any shitcoin, but in linear token, you know, which is basically equal to Near token.
And so, yeah, so there are, you know, there are many things that people can do.
Yeah.
Okay, super interesting.
So, I'm not going to claim I understand the full mechanism, but I think I get the idea of the way that you, I like the way that you characterize it.
I think you said it's, PNear is essentially like a super boosted linear.
Is that correct?
Yes, yes.
Okay, so I think I get that gist.
I want to hear more about why you, why Linear decided to launch Bonds, the reasoning and thought process behind it.
How do you see, you know, PNear and the Bonds marketplace positioning itself within the DeFi ecosystem on Near?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I would say, you know, the motivation is actually the bear market.
Because, you know, we've been through a bear market and we're probably still in one.
And, you know, in the bear market, APY drops a lot.
You can basically borrow, you know, stablecoin for free.
And on-chain activity level drops a lot, too.
And to be very honest, you know, on Near, DeFi can be a little bit quiet for quite a bit of time.
So, we were just thinking, you know, can we just bring some fun, some fun game, you know, to the ecosystem?
You know, we just want to give users something to play with.
And that one better be safe because people don't want to risk at all.
So, we were thinking, you know, probably we want some game that has your principal protected and at the same time has a big enough use potential.
So, here I have to shout out to Liquity and Chicken Bonds.
So, it's them who first created the whole mechanism of, you know, all Phoenix Bonds, you know, bonding mechanism that we're using right now.
And they launched Chicken Bonds on Ethereum a couple of months ago.
And they're doing really well.
So, they proved that, you know, this chasm actually works.
So, we've been building on top of that.
So, basically, they were using LUSD and Liquity, you know, as the asset and yield source.
And here, we're using Near and Linear as the asset and yield source.
So, yeah.
So, basically, that's all.
Because it's literally a, I'll say a win-win situation here.
Because for users, you know, they can, because they have their principal, you know, protected, you can always just chicken out.
You can cancel anytime and you won't lose anything except for the opportunity cost, which is the sticking reward, you know, generated by your Near during that pending period.
So, it's, you know, it's probably, you know, the safest, you know, investment that you can ever make.
So, it's a win for users.
And for Linear, for Near, so, of course, Linear TVL will grow because all Near tokens on fixed bonds are staked on Linear.
And it actually also, you know, helps Near to get more, you know, Near tokens staked with validators.
And it's also good for the blockchain.
And, again, you know, we just want people to have something to play with.
And I think it's a fun game because, you know, there are many strategies that you can use.
And it's, you know, it's actually, you know, it's called bonds.
But I would say it's very, very different from all those bonds, you know, zero coupon bonds or whatever bonds, like convertible bonds, you know, that you will see in Tritify or DeFi.
So, it's called bonds because you deposit some asset right now and then you expect return, you know, after a period of time and that's it.
So, I think the core, you know, the core of the game is actually a game, like a game between users.
It's a game of opportunity cost.
So, basically, you are trying to, because everyone is putting their staking reward together.
So, they're, you know, all users are, you know, contributing their opportunity cost generated by their near principal.
Let's say, you know, in a single pool.
And it's unclear who's going to get more from that staking reward pool.
And that's the fun part of the game.
And if you, you know, if you do it right, if you enter at the optimal time and if you're patient enough, if you're, you know, if you've done the right things, then you can, you know, potentially get that perpetually amplified yield, you know, from that pool.
So, I think that's the, you know, that's the fun part.
And we just want to, you know, bring more vitality to near blockchain.
And I think it's actually for everyone, because if you're, you know, risk averse, you can still try to respond.
So, you will not lose your principle.
So, and if you're, you know, if you're really a risk seeker, you can right now just, you know, go market by PNIR and just get that, you know, huge APR.
Or you can just do the rebound looping and to compound your rewards.
And there are so many things you can do.
You can even, you know, borrow near using stable coin as collateral.
And then bond those near on Phoenix bonds.
Because, you know, I mean, if you want to, you know, get your collateral back, you can always just cancel that bond and just pay the loan.
So, there are so many things that you can play with.
And it actually works for, you know, for people with all sort of risk appetite.
So, yeah, that's why we created Phoenix Bonds.
Okay, yeah, super fascinating.
And I think you made it very digestible for the listeners, for me, for sure.
If people are interested in Phoenix Bonds and they want to figure out, like, they want to start playing this game and figure out different strategies, what would you recommend?
Where should they start?
Should they start by reading the docs?
Should they come talk to someone on Discord?
How would you guide them?
Yeah, so my suggestion will be, you know, go to Phoenix Bonds' front page and, you know, click docs and try to read it.
Because it's actually not that hard.
Like, you know, once you get it, it's actually pretty simple.
And after that, just go to Phoenix Bonds' Twitter.
We have a series of Twitter threads and medium articles actually, like, articulating the strategies that I said before.
And actually, you know, explain in super details, you know, where the yield comes from and why it's not a Ponzi and why it's 300% APY.
You know, it looks crazy, but it's actually real.
So, and also, we are, you know, we are being a very candid here.
So, you can actually find, you know, all types of, you know, analysis done by the team, you know, from Twitter, from Medium.
And, of course, you know, go to Discord and just ask questions.
There will be people answering your questions.
So, yeah, that's, I think that will be my suggestion.
And also, I think the best way to explore it is actually bounce a little bit.
Because, you know, you really, like, you won't lose too much anyway.
So, you can just bounce something there and try a little bit and see your, you know, your yield moving on that bonding curve.
And that's going to give you, you know, some feeling about Phoenix Bonds.
And if you don't like it, you can just, you know, cancel that after a couple of days or a week.
And you basically, you know, you won't lose too much.
Actually, you won't lose anything on your principle.
So, it's a pretty safe thing to try.
Okay.
Well, thank you so much.
I think that's a really helpful guide for people who want to get started.
I want to thank you again for your very excellent exposition on how Phoenix Bonds work.
And last but not least, we'll move on to Claudio from Metapool.
Claudio, also congratulations to you on the launch of MetaBonds.
Let's get into what MetaBonds are like.
It seems like, while both Bonds, MetaBonds seem to be a very different project from Phoenix Bonds and seem to be quite particular to the Metapool ecosystem.
Could you give us a high-level overview of MetaBonds and how it works?
Yes, hello, everybody.
First and foremost, anything we say here is not financial advice.
So, please do your own research.
And please do not trust, verify, or whatever we say.
So, with that out of the way, so, yes, we launched a secondary bond market.
And we launched what we believe is a DeFi bonds, like in traditional bonds, or TradFi, where basically right now, why we launched a secondary bonds market was to give a liquidity medium for people that were supporting projects on MetaYield.
And in a way for them to basically migrate their IOUs from MetaYield into a secondary bond market, so they can have a liquidity event, and they can place those IOUs as bonds in an open marketplace for anybody to buy them.
So, this was the original plan for MetaYield, because we believe that we should give supporters a way for them to have access to liquidity without the lockup of the 12 months for their staking rewards and the amount of lockup for the project tokens that we're getting exposed to as well.
And so, with this, right now, yes, it's pretty, right now, very intertwined with MetaYield.
The only IOUs we're supporting are, of course, the ones minted by the MetaYield platform, but eventually, we will open up the secondary bond market to whitelist projects that we believe are adding value to the new ecosystem.
And in this case, a little bit of alpha for everybody here, we're going to be launching Pembrok tokens, Pembrok, Pem token bonds in the next couple of weeks.
And the idea here is to give Pembrok token supporters an opportunity to buy Pem tokens at a discount with different locking mechanisms on those tokens.
So, that's the basic idea behind metabonds, and we believe that there's an opportunity here for long-term projects on the new ecosystem, and hopefully soon in the Aurora ecosystem as well, to have a bond mechanism where they can place their project tokens at a discount with certain lockup periods on them without doing an IDO, right?
And be exposed, and be exposed, and the project be exposed to front-running and pump-and-dump schemes.
That way, they can put out tokens at a discount through a bonding mechanism and in an open marketplace as well.
The bonds can be put, you can put a strike price on the bond, or you can do a bid mechanism for the bond as well.
So, those are the things that we built for the Nier ecosystem right now, and hopefully in the next coming weeks, we'll be launching it for the Aurora ecosystem as well.
So, that's what the metabond marketplace is, and yeah, I'm really happy about it.
And as I discussed, it was part of the initial project for MetaYield, but then we saw an opportunity to launch a secondary bond market on Nier.
And so, we're really, really excited about this and the opportunities behind building on top of Nier.
Okay, super interesting.
Do you think you could give us a very concrete example so that we can better understand the mechanism involved and the parties involved and the potential answer to who it's for and what the main benefits would be?
Would you have an example to illustrate this?
Yeah, sure.
So, for example, right now, Pembroke.
Pembroke, just their tokens, their PEM tokens are liquid on the market.
And let's say the Pembroke project wants to put certain tokens up for sale on a secondary market.
But, of course, they don't want those tokens to be liquid on the market so the buyers don't dump them, don't dump the tokens.
But they still, the incentive for somebody buying them is getting them at a discount.
And so, when they create a bond, what it does is that the Pembroke project will place a lockup mechanism on those tokens, six, nine months, 12 months.
And then, based on the lockup period, they will give a discount.
And so, once the buyer of that bond goes to the marketplace, buys the bond, then it creates, it is the owner of that bond, which represents X amount of tokens with a lockup mechanism or lockup period on them.
And then, a certain amount of tokens based on the price that they bought it.
And so, it's going to be bundled, right?
It's going to be, I don't know, maybe 100 PEM tokens, 500, 1,000, 10,000, right?
And different price discounts and different lockup mechanisms.
And so, we allow a project to basically mint bonds with different lockup periods, different discounts, so it could cater to the different strategies for holding PEM tokens for their project supporters, right?
Or anybody that wants to have access to the PEM token set at a discount.
And then, the project doesn't have to do an IDO, which, as we know right now, participating in a launchpad, it is good for price discovery.
But then, if you use it once the project has their tokens liquid on the market, it is open to front running and pump and dump schemes.
And that's something we want projects to avoid.
Yeah, that's super interesting.
So, on the buyer side, on the user side, you are benefiting from a good deal.
So, essentially, you're getting tokens at a discount in exchange for a certain period of lockup.
And then, from the project side, you're essentially saying, you know, it works as a better version, improved version of what people want to achieve with something like an IDO.
So, you're able to sell your tokens, you're able to invest them, and in return, you're able to get some funds in order to support your project.
What is the ultimate vision for MetaBonds?
How do you see the role of MetaBonds within the near AB5 ecosystem?
What's its ultimate position going to be?
Yeah, for us, as I said, right, it's just giving projects access to liquidity and also to supporters of MetaYield projects as well, access to liquidity.
And, yeah, we're alpha beta testing as we go, right?
We believe that it's a good medium for projects to list their tokens at a discount and basically give more utility to the near protocol DeFi ecosystem as well.
And so, yeah, it's the first step in stone.
Then, we will get into other more complex financial instruments for DeFi.
But for now, it's just a traditional bonds market, open marketplace.
That's the whole vision of it.
Of course, we will first start with whitelisting just so we understand the projects that are going to get listed
and that we put near token holders front and center of everything we do, right?
We do not want to list scams or try to avoid any bad actors from the ecosystem listing projects there
and then have near token holders rugged or scam, right?
So, I think we're taking one step at a time.
And decentralization takes time.
It is the end goal, but you have to take it one step at a time
and just be mindful that you're not hurting the ecosystem and your token holders.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, thank you, Claudio, for introducing us to the concept of metabonds.
And on the note, I want to thank everyone for participating.
As the final wrap-up question, I want to give everyone the chance to make their final call to action
or last words on what the community should be looking forward to.
So, let's start with Claudio.
What should we look forward to from Metapool outside of metabonds?
And what would you like to make a call to action to the community?
Yeah, first of all, well, thank you, everybody, for coming into the space.
And one important aspect and the vision behind Metapool, right, we're a DAO-run liquid staking derivative.
The main objective for Metapool is for the protocol to be run by the community and for the community.
So, in that sense, we have, and I need to give a shout-out to all the chunk-only producer notes
and the validator notes that have been supporting us through the Meta Staking Vote product.
Right now, there's more than 30 million votes being accrued by the different validator notes on the network.
We're allocating 15% of the TVL on our liquid staking platform to be selected and voted by the community.
So, really happy about that.
Shout-out to ReadyLayer1 for leveraging that platform.
Open Web Academy as well.
So, there's a couple of newcomers into the validator note space that have leveraged this Meta Staking Vote.
So, thank you very much for that.
And so, the idea is how do we build products that are community-run and not run by a company, right,
which is why we signed up for Web3.
And so, anyhow, so that's the vision behind all the products that we built.
But we're going to be announcing something really exciting in the next coming weeks regarding fintech integrations.
So, more news on that.
And, yeah, just opening up the possibility to leverage liquid staking derivatives for normies through a fintech application.
So, that's the next bounce of the ball for us.
Thank you very much, everybody, for coming into the space.
And keep on staking.
Thank you so much.
Keep on staking, indeed.
Andre and Yvonne, for SPIN, what can we look forward to in the near future?
And would you like to make a call to action to the community?
Sure, yeah.
We are walking forward with the automated investment products.
So, there will be more strategies, sophisticated strategies for everyone to invest in.
And, yeah, keep tracking our progress and visit us at spin.ly.
Keep on spinning, I guess, would be the tagline.
Yeah.
Anuthi, go ahead.
Your turn.
I think RIM is totally acing the taglines here.
So, yeah, the big shout-out to everyone for Stator would be look out for the SD staking that's soon coming on ETH.
And hold on to your SD tokens and participate in the SD USDC pool that's currently live on REF.
The second would be around watching out for more validators who will become part of the validator-specific staking.
And if you feel like, you know, one of them is a preferred validator, feel free to exercise that product.
The third would be watch out for more innovative products like investment walls from Stator's end.
And finally, do check out our expansion across the many different blockchains we are launching on, the next three being ETH, APDOT, and SUI.
See you soon, guys.
And let's be a part of this staking revolution.
Brilliant.
Sandy, same question?
I forgot what was the question, but I'm just going to say, I'm just going to say, I mean, thank you, everybody, for, you know, listening.
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