Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
NERD OUT EP 7 on @RugRadio Future of Social: Platform vs. Protocol
Recorded: May 31, 2023 Duration: 1:04:09Space Recording
Full Transcription
Okay, Tara, I have.
I have a song this week.
Oh, my goodness, Jason.
I got my twin, Cockporties.
Cocked back, me and my homies, so drop that.
It's supposed to be like, nerd out.
You are really tired.
Nerd out.
You're stretched thin this week.
Nerd out.
I am, but I was singing Roll Out for some reason,
and I was like, oh, my God, nerd out fits perfectly there.
So we have our song for the week.
Love it.
Love it.
Well, you're always introducing a fun aspect.
I just let you lead it because I'm like,
I'm not about to sing on a Twitter Spaces.
That is the forever that it's out there.
Well, we have an incredible.
Yeah, but you're a creator, Jason, so you own it.
We have such a crazy panel and topic today.
I'm so excited.
Me too.
Yeah, I know we're letting people.
Well, yeah, why don't we go ahead and dive in?
I know we got an hour, and we've got some really smart people
that I'm super excited to spend the time picking their brains.
Yeah, let's jump in.
Okay, so I am Jason Primrose, author and creative director of LCOA 2052.
It's an art, literature, and music-infused sci-fi universe
that champions diversity, resilience, and unleashing our inner potential.
Our Mint launches next week, June 6th, on Live Art,
so we're very excited about that.
Yes, and Tara Fung, I'm the co-founder and CEO here at CoCreate.
We help innovative brands unlock the power of community,
utilizing the tools of Web3.
And we actually had a big launch today.
We launched our Web3-powered loyalty guide
and also our developer sandbox.
So if you don't know about that, go and check it out.
It's a lot of fun.
Yeah, we've been working hard on that.
But enough about us.
We've got a packed show today.
You want to set us up, Jason?
Yeah, absolutely.
So for those of you who are needing nerd out, welcome.
This is our nerdy playground where we come together
to build bridges between the old current internet.
Tara, you're on...
Oh, I'm on...
Not on mute.
Not on mute.
Sorry, not on mute.
This is our nerdy playground where we come together
to build bridges between the old current internet
and the next internet for our audience,
using curiosity, thoughtfulness, and connection
as our driving forces.
Yes, and welcome to episode seven.
In this space, we're going to explore what the future
of social media looks like and where value will accrue,
whether it's at the platform or the app layer
or at the protocol layer.
I think this is a super salient topic
because we are living in a world where we're being forced
to reckon with social media platforms owning all of our data,
all of our connections and social graph.
And so what happens when they become,
or already are, untrustworthy or if they fail?
And the big question that I'm excited to ask this panel as well
is what hurdles exist for decentralized protocols
to amass enough scale and reach to actually compete
with these large, established social media platforms?
And if those decentralized protocols do succeed,
what will be the impact for businesses
that are building at the application layer?
So we have incredible powerhouse panelists with us today.
Stani from Lens and Aave, thank you so much for being here.
And then two friends of mine,
Paki McCormick of Not Boring, needs no introduction.
And then a dear friend of mine that's here in Nashville
and also an amazing ping pong player, Shane Mack,
co-founder and CEO of XMTP.
So welcome, everyone.
It's so great to be here.
Thanks for having us.
Welcome, welcome.
So we want to, we're trying to get,
we're trying to get Paki up here.
I invited you to speak a couple of times.
I don't know if you're rugging.
Come on, Paki, let's go.
Get it together.
Paki, you must know how quarter spaces work.
You definitely do this too much.
Right.
So we want to start with an icebreaker
and then we'll do some introductions.
So quick game of would you rather,
would you rather give up all drinks except for water
or give up eating anything that was cooked in an oven?
Oh my God.
We'll start with, we'll start with Stani.
So, so what do you have to give up?
You have to give up either all drinks except for water
or every food that's cooked in an oven.
So would you rather drink water and eat stuff cooked in an oven
or be able to drink more than water
and you have to give up all foods cooked in an oven?
Honestly, I never use oven.
I think I pretty much never use unless I have to bake something.
And if I have to bake something, I go to bakery.
So I think as long as I have a pan and a stove, I'm pretty good.
So if I can't drink more than water, I'm pretty happy.
So I'm pretty okay to give the oven oven.
Amazing.
Oh my God, that's hilarious.
Shane?
I'll take water my whole life.
I heard it's healthy for me.
So I'll just stick with cooking in the oven.
I like, I like the oven cooked meals.
I got to have, you know, those dino chicken nuggets.
You got to have those Southern meals here in Nashville, Shane.
Chicken filet.
Oh my God, chicken filet is the devil.
But it's so good.
It's so good.
I know we're not supposed to eat it, but I, but I, but I, but I sneak the fries every
once in a while when I'm driving back and forth from, from Baltimore to my mom's house
in Solomon's.
I would definitely not be giving up anything cooked in an oven because I'm a cookie freak.
So I guess I'm only drinking water for the rest of my life.
Oh my gosh.
That's okay.
Y'all are crazy.
First off, you're all assuming that you can live without coffee for the water people.
Like I cannot live without coffee.
I would definitely give up things that are cooked in an oven and standing.
I'm with you.
I'm getting Chick-fil-A.
Um, those things are fried.
It's all good.
Um, and Paki, whenever you get up here, we'll ask you this question as well.
Um, you, you'll need to be on your phone in case you're not on mobile and you're on desktop.
Here we go.
Here we go, Paki.
I had, uh, I had deleted the Twitter app.
Uh, and so I just, I was trying to connect from the mobile web app and here I am.
That's so healthy of you, but also, wow.
You got me.
I need, I need the backstory on that.
That's our goal.
I need, I need, I need the backstory on that, the deleting app.
Yeah, the backstory is, uh, I mean, I, I realized that I just checked the Twitter app compulsively
all the time and, and so I thought that I would do that less if I deleted it.
There was a Tim Irvin tweet about the fact that he did the same thing and then became
just the biggest power user of twitter.com on mobile.
And I did the same thing.
So this isn't really that big loss.
I guess I just get the better, better, uh, version of the experience.
So here we are.
Oh, I, I thought it was cause the owner of it could read all your unencrypted DMs.
That too, but mostly the addiction.
One, two punch from Shane over there.
Oh my gosh.
Well, welcome.
So would you get, would you give up an only drink water or give up baked foods or vice versa?
I had, I mean, this was like a no brainer for water until you just brought up the coffee
point.
Uh, I think I would go for water still.
I need the oven.
Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm keeping water.
Um, amazing.
Well, now that we've gotten you all loose, um, let's go around, uh, for anyone who doesn't
know y'all, um, please share answers to the following and try to keep it to two minutes
because we've got a lot of questions that are coming up, but a quick introduction to
yourself, what you do and a response to the question of, do you think the future of social
will include the behemoths we know today, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, all
the big guys.
So Paki, why don't we start off with you?
Sure.
So, uh, I'm Paki McCormick.
I write a newsletter called Not Boring and invest out of a fund called Not Boring Capital.
Um, I am the one person here not building, uh, not building any products, but, uh, definitely
write about social and web three a bunch.
Um, and as much as it pains me to say it, I think that the future of social involves
at least one, if not all, all four of the companies that you just mentioned.
I mean, we just talked about my Twitter addiction and I think it's, it's hard to break.
I also kind of subscribe to the, to this belief and I don't know how we're going to deal with
it, but, but there are just going to be a lot more kind of small pockets of, of social
that we're going to participate in.
Um, you know, personally, I use a bunch of different, uh, a bunch of different social
apps now, so I don't think the big ones are going away, but hopefully we have, uh, more
choice and then hopefully that forces the, the big social media companies to build better
user-friendly experiences.
All right.
Position taken.
Stani, do you want to go next?
Stani, do you want to go next?
Sure.
So, I'm, um, I'm, um, I'm building, um, I built previously the audit protocol, um, which
is more of a business finance protocol and providing access to, um, probably kind of like,
uh, more of a financial opportunities.
And now with lens protocol, we're providing more access to, uh, ownership of your social
presence, uh, online.
Um, and what lens pretty much is just in short terms is that we just look into different kinds
of, uh, uh, social networking artifacts online, like profile creation, um, following different
people and creating content, amplifying content, and turning them into more likely artifacts.
Um, meaning that we're using things like, um, the blockchain to secure your profile ownership,
um, to follow the graph ownership, um, and also include some of the, uh, components of,
uh, monetization as well.
In terms of the, uh, uh, more of like traditional social media players and how they will, uh, play
in the future, that's a very good question because I think, um, in one way they have enough
market share that they can retain their networks.
Um, and I think Facebook is a good example where, you know, it's many of us don't use
it on a daily basis because it doesn't really provide us things we really like to do on a
daily basis.
But at the same time, it just gets more market share in new areas, um, regions, but also,
um, it's kind of like fundamentally brings sort of that baseline social networking.
And same for Twitter, for example, and I personally think it really depends on the, um, constant
innovation curve, for example, like how much social media of today wants to, uh, innovate
in the future and bring new opportunities for people, whatever, uh, communities they are
or whatever values they're, uh, representing.
And I think what, um, WebTree Social provides is a bit more fair and, um, just, uh, social
media where, you know, the internet is not only about, uh, the, the businesses and the businesses
owning the networks and the platforms, but actually making it a bit more equitable.
For example, that's actually people who are using these social media networks are, they
have some sort of a saying or, uh, ownership of, of, of the, of the networks we create in
the future.
Um, so I think if, if that power movement and shift will happen, um, then it's interesting
to see like how these strong traditional social networks will, um, reply or how they will play
in the future in the, the new paradigm.
Um, so the answer is kind of like, uh, it, it, it really depends.
Um, but I truly believe that we have to build for a future where users are the epicenter of
everything.
And, and, and sorry about the, uh, background noise quite a bit, I, uh, I, I, I apologize for
that.
Um, we appreciate you being here, Stanny.
I know you had some other things going on.
Okay.
So we've got a yes from Paki, a nuanced answer from Stanny and Shane, I'm thinking you might
be the other end of the spectrum, but tell me, tell me what your thoughts are.
Uh, yeah, actually not.
And to just start XMTP is the secure messaging network for web three.
Um, you know, we work with a lot of different platforms, different apps to provide an interoperable
communication layer so that any wallet address can reach another wallet address or any identity.
We actually work a lot with lens and all ecosystems to provide secure DMS across the lens ecosystem
to the lens applications, um, as well.
And we just believe that everyone in the world should be able to own their communication and
you should be able to take your messages with you and not be locked into any one app or platform.
Um, so that's really kind of our mission and our focus in the world.
And to the question, I'm not a person who believes everything has to die to create new innovative
ways for products and networks to change our life.
And so, you know, email didn't die for Twitter to happen or Twitter didn't die for Snapchat
to happen.
Uh, so I actually think it's up to us to create new, more meaningful ways for networks, for
people to come together, for have richer experiences that impact and make our lives better.
And that will attract and create the opportunities for us.
It doesn't have to be in terms of something today dying.
I just don't usually see it happen.
Craigslist is still pretty effective, even though everyone tries to kill it.
Well said.
Well said.
So I think we have one.
I have thoughts.
Oh, go for it, Jason.
Tell us your thoughts.
I was just going to say Craigslist is insanely efficient.
It just does like what it's supposed to do.
And so I think it's, when I think about things that died like Vine, you would have, I mean,
people still can't believe that Vine disappeared.
But I think it was the utility of Vine that was mimicked and then kind of got taken over.
But I wonder about a better Facebook, right?
Like a more inclusive or kind of a less exploitive Instagram.
You know what I mean?
So I think that when people would adopt something that has the same functionality as what they
were using before, but it feels better for them or maybe it's more convenient or maybe
there's something that you're getting.
I think that something big could actually die in a way that is unbelievable, like BuzzFeed
dying or paper magazine going out.
You know what I mean?
Totally.
Just to be clear, though, Vine died because Twitter is not a ship.
Yeah, this is going to be a fun space.
I am so ready for this.
Okay, before we dive in to the harder hitting questions, I realized we need to set some definitions.
Because within Web3, we talk about protocols a lot.
And if we're being honest with ourselves, most of us could not define what a protocol is
and how that is different than a platform or an app.
And so I want to open it up to any of you, Shane, Stani, Packie, any of you who feel so
inclined and wants to give an easy to understand definition of how to think about what a protocol
is compared to what a platform or an app level is.
And Shane, I see you're ready to go.
I think about this a lot.
So I just wanted to share it to us, you know, and kind of how we see the market.
A protocol is a relatively simple codified set of behaviors that allows for the construction
or emergence of complex coordinated behaviors.
And so I think what's interesting is protocols are sufficiently constrained.
They actually are radically simple.
And they, in retrospect, usually look like they were very lucky or serendipitous because
something so simple could have global scale.
But that actually is what enables global coordination because of how simple they are, where platforms
manage massive complex coordinated behaviors, expand on the opportunity above it, and kind
of, or just where all of the value capture usually has been in the past.
That's just how we see it.
Can you, I just got to be really dumb for a second.
Can you define or give an example for like a coordinated behavior that you're speaking about?
Yeah, so SMS would be a protocol for communication that was adopted by the Nokia phone in 1993 when
it was first adopted into the first platform.
So a platform actually adopts protocols and then a protocol enables more platforms.
A coordinated behavior would be Twilio.
So a Twilio, actually SMS coordination of short codes of all the registry of how they get rendered
to the carriers, to the messaging providers.
How do you make sure all those messages are delivered?
That's a very complicated and complex platform.
Twilio would be the platform.
SMS would be the protocol.
SMS is a very pretty radically simple protocol.
So helpful.
Yeah, Stany, do you want to add to that?
Yeah, it's actually quite interesting because I do have an idea in my mind what a protocol is.
And I do have an idea of what something of a platform is.
And it really depends on the context.
But I think we tend to categorize quite a lot, not just in the deputy space, but in general,
what certain things are.
And that makes our thinking a bit difficult because sometimes you just want to create something
that solves a certain type of problem.
And I think where protocol comes into place is that when you solve a problem or a good opportunity,
you can actually share that with others.
And I think that's where things become interesting.
So, for example, what I see a protocol is that it allows other people to connect either
need the information without any permissions or even contribute and write to a set of tools.
Because the very narrow definition of a protocol is just like a set of tools so we all can be
compliant, so we all can coordinate, and so we all can actually have a system where we can
scale and add new users, add new applications, and innovate.
But I think one of the nature that is very important is that, especially when we think about public goods
and protocols, is the idea of openness.
So, whatever we build, it has to be built in a way where we are able to contribute into that ecosystem.
And we are able to actually use that to solve the challenge that we might have or whatever
the opportunity we are trying to pursue in that scope.
And I think XMPT is a good example because we use XMPT across, I've seen multiple clients
across the lens ecosystem using it.
So, it's purely a messaging tool, but it's set of rules and policies how you have to actually
create those messages so you're compliant on the appear in these different applications
that are creating it.
And a platform, that's a very more complicated thing.
I think the protocol concept is way more easier than the platform because a platform is not
really, like, clearly, like, evil playing as we want to, like, think about it sometimes
when we compare the protocols, but, like, a platform might be actually a good thing.
So, if you think about, like, biotech, you know, a platform means that we create a one
type of system which leverages all kinds of new innovations and it creates, like, a platform
for new innovations.
So, platforms are not necessarily, like, a bad thing.
So, I guess what, and also, like, referring to what Shane said, that a platform might be
a bit more, like, kind of like a closed, more, like, a next layer of, like, a coordination
avenue.
But something I've been thinking about, especially within the lens ecosystem, that what actually
is a platform, because if you look at the ecosystem, lens protocol was launched without
any clients in the first place.
And now you have, you have the open source lens, if anyone can work, but you have amazing
mobile experiences.
So, you have, for example, the Orb application, you have Butterfly, and they provide not only
good text-based social media experience, but also very good experience with music consumption
and also video.
And in the future, all these applications and clients and algorithms and even the protocol
itself can actually share the benefits between each other.
So, they can share keys, monetization, consumption, sharing.
So, it's really, like, it just creates less meaning of the idea of a platform.
But I, I really want to say that, you know, it's, the categorization isn't necessarily always
helpful, but there's definitely, like, some differences between what we see as a platform
in a protocol these days.
Yeah, it's interesting to hear about the relationship between behaviors that, I guess,
inform the development of protocols, and then how that protocol-to-platform relationship
kind of works together.
So, let's go to the next part.
So, with social media platforms owning our data connections and social graph, what are the
potential consequences if these platforms become untrustworthy or fail?
I mean, we're starting to see the impact of that already.
But on a full scale, how might this impact individuals and society as a whole?
So, we're talking about something like Facebook failing, Instagram failing, Twitter failing.
Let's start with Paki.
Yeah, it's a really good question.
I think it, to me, this question relates a little bit, actually, to the question of
protocol versus platform.
There's this great Bill Gates line that a platform is when the economic value of everybody
that uses it exceeds the value of the company that creates it, then it's a platform.
And I think what's really interesting is if you look at something like a Twitter, Twitter
might have been a platform before it, I mean, this is not a Neon thing even, before it closed
off its APIs to developers, Facebook, maybe early days platform.
Then it started behaving poorly.
I think Chris Dixon called this like the attract to extract switch.
And so, I think those are some of the potential consequences.
It's not necessarily to users.
I don't think the world falls apart if Twitter goes away tomorrow or if Facebook goes away
tomorrow.
But I think if you're building something on top of a Twitter or a Facebook, that's always
a risk that a protocol is, once it's kind of up and running, this constant thing that
one group can't decide to change, where a platform can actually choose to not become
a platform or to do kind of whatever is in the best interest of the company.
It's the company's responsibility for that to be the case.
And so, I think that's the big one is if you're building on top of a platform, if you're
building on top of one of the big social media companies, it's just a risk to be aware
of it and I think the instability building on top of Twitter or trusting Twitter's API
or I saw something even today, I haven't read the article, but there was a developer
who was using Reddit's API who I think they asked for something crazy like $20 million
to continue using that because now they're having to defend themselves from being ingested
by OpenAI's models.
So, there's just all this instability that comes, potential instability that comes building
on top of these social platforms.
And I think that's the biggest risk as opposed to the risk for the users in a lot of cases.
That's an interesting position to take.
Let's go to Shane.
Yeah.
I just really feel like this is already happening today.
And messaging apps are run by companies with a surveillance business model.
And a company like we're using can read all my DMs.
I just feel like it's already happened.
So, the question for me isn't what if it happens or what if they become untrustworthy.
That's already there.
So, the question is, obviously, people still want their connections and their networks and
these experiences are good to people.
So, I always go to how do we create better experiences?
How do we create new networks?
How do we create more valuable features to move people in a new direction that actually
can be trustworthy?
That can not fail.
That can be permissionless.
That can't cut off developers.
And how do we create new relationships with both developers, users, and giving people and
individuals control back with giving them features and things that they actually use, like,
and love and make their lives better?
Because if you don't do that, I don't believe people switch because they're like, oh, I'm
getting all of my data or connections or social graph monitored or cut off.
We have to create better experiences.
And so, I just think that we have a lot of work to do to create better experiences to move
people in that direction to give them the control over their data and connections.
Absolutely.
I totally agree with that, too.
And it's the idea that, like, we all complain about Twitter, but we're not going to stop
using it.
But if something really, really great came along that, like I said earlier, that we
felt better about, you know, I think people would migrate.
But it would have to be, like, sensational, like Clubhouse was, where it was just like everybody
wanted to be on Clubhouse because it was something new and it was exciting and it was, like,
a new way to connect to people.
And it felt like we were in control of the experience, you know, like they were really
listening to us.
Totally agree.
Oh, Clubhouse.
R.I.P.
I mean, it created this, though, right?
Like, the innovation, whether who got to capture that value, obviously, was Twitter.
But it was such a powerful innovation.
I think created something meaningfully different that truly struck a chord with everybody.
Yeah, it's kind of like the difference between a product feature and actually an effective
platform with network effects, for sure.
And one of the things, Shane, I have to say, like, whenever I hear you speak, it reminds
me of Braveheart.
It's like, I would go into war.
You're so good at putting things in a really compelling way.
You know, taking this question a bit further, I think, Paki, one of the things that you said
that really struck a chord with me is that building on top of closed platforms, it makes
me think of building on top of rented land.
It's like, do you really want to build there?
Are you going to actually own what you build there?
Are the tools going to change and the rules going to change if you build there?
You know, for us personally at CoCreate, we enable folks, brands to launch Twitter campaigns
where they reward individuals who post user-generated content about that brand or tag the brand.
But from one day to the next, the Twitter API went from being $100 a month to $42,000 based
on usage limits that are very, very low.
And it's like, what?
Like, it's just absolutely absurd.
So, you know, going to, okay, building on top of rented land is not great.
Maybe shifting over to you, Stani, what are the main challenges and hurdles that protocols
face in amassing enough scale and reach to compete with the existing large social media
platforms?
Because if we think about where crypto is aggregating right now, yeah, there's some, there are some
communities on Farcaster, on Linster, on various other platforms.
But for the most part, it's still on Twitter, even though we all agree that it sucks.
So, how do you think these protocols get to really compete with the large established players?
It's an interesting question because I, I mean, we've been building lines for now two years
and something that's been incredible is that we, a week ago, we had a one-year anniversary
since the mainnet.
So, that felt really amazing for us because everything feels like we started yesterday.
So, but something that's been interesting, especially over the couple of years, I'm being
trying to think about, like, what's actually going to make a big difference in how we can get
new people in adoption.
And I don't really think it's about moving people anywhere.
I think that we also have the same kind of a challenge that the whole crypto space has
in the sense that we have to really build experiences and use cases to get not just more users,
but get the existing users engaged.
And lens isn't really a completely, like, new social experience on chain because, in
some ways, I like to think that, for example, the Ethereum network itself is a social network.
So, basically, you know, there was the BFI summit where everyone was looking for yield.
That's, like, a social engagement and there's sort of social proof there.
But NFT summit was exactly the same and now what we're experiencing with the meme coins as
well.
So, like, when you look at the history of blockchain and specifically, for example, Ethereum, you
have and you see all these social events happening, like, you know, starting from, let's
say, from cryptocurrencies, for example.
So, that social behavior exists there, but it's more of a question of, like, how you're
going to make it easy to actually build those things.
So, for the protocols, I think what's important is to create a neutral, flexible, unopinionated
way to actually build those social experiences.
And a protocol, really, it's not the one that actually seeks from the adoption, but it's
those use cases and applications and clients that actually create experiences that engage
the existing audience that we have in the play and also bring new people.
So, one of the things I like about Lens is that it's kind of like a channel where you
can have a Web3 brand or you can be a Web3 creator and you can talk to a Web3 audience.
But then, to actually scale it beyond that, we have to think about, like, how we make
it a bit more easier through this experience or some other way to get more newcomers.
And I think that's where the actual key is.
It's not about getting the Twitter into Lens that is the solution.
It's actually, like, what we can build that is super amazing, exciting, engaging, that people
come in and use Lens protocol or use the blockchain in the first place and stay in the ecosystem.
And I think that's the key aspect here.
Paki, I'd love to go to you next on this question of, because I know you think so deeply about
these topics of competitive moats and also just network effects, business models.
Yeah, I mean, to me, I completely agree with standing on building new use cases here.
A lot of this, to be cliche, just comes back to that Eugene Waypost status as a service.
And interestingly, he's not talking about crypto, but he calls it kind of the proof of work that
needs to happen on each new platform.
And there needs to be something that you need to be like a new kind of person can be better
at on a different type of social platform.
So on Twitter, it was being kind of like pithy and funny on something like TikTok.
It's and he talks about musically before it was TikTok, but it's dancing and like a whole
different group of people are good at making short dance videos than they are at coming
up with pithy little tweets.
And so, I mean, I think the magic here is how do you find new kind of proof of works
that new types of people can get really good at and build up their following and all of
that kind of stuff on these new platforms?
And I think probably where crypto and open protocols have the biggest advantage here is
that there can just be a lot of different types of experiments kind of built on top of
protocols more easily that can tap into user bases and all of that.
And so I'd love to see kind of more radical experimentation with what makes somebody good at a new social
app in Web3.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, that's that's that's an interesting.
I never thought about social in that way.
Yeah, that post is status as a service by Eugene Way.
Like it is it's the gospel, I think, in social networks.
Yeah, I think it's a legend.
In some ways, I like to refer to that, like, I think something that stuck in my mind was when we said, like, a few weeks ago that, like, you know, about social and social is that, like, like, everything is kind of like an engagement game or some sort of a game.
So like, for example, Twitter, it's it's it has its own kind of like a game element.
So basically, you create content and you get some sort of likes, retweets, you know, people tag you.
And it also kind of like ties into this idea of status of the service and why people are actually going for that.
And what is interesting is that when you think about the platforms and let's say that's like, oh, I have an incredible audience in Twitter.
Or let's say that, you know, I want to create something that all the Twitter users or all the, you know, crypto Twitter users can use.
You can't really do that today.
So that's the kind of like a huge difference between that platform aspect and also the protocol aspect, because with open protocols, what you can actually do is that you can create something new and leverage the existing user base.
And the beauty, for example, and let's say that something like Ethereum network is that, you know, if there is some interesting game that you want to play,
and if you already have Ethereum networks and you have Eid from some sort of previous event, you actually are part of the ecosystem and you can use and you can play a new game or some sort of a social interaction.
And I think that's where the big difference actually comes from.
Go for it, Shane. I see you want to get in here.
Yeah, yeah. I love what Stanny and Packy are saying.
And also, Terry, what you were saying about brands and trying to do their outreach, because I go back to what's fundamentally different to underneath what Stanny and Packy are saying around new content types or status as a service.
And that's, I think, the deep pain felt by the artists, the creators, the people with the largest audiences.
And if I go back to even how XMTP started, Mike Shinoda was in a clubhouse, funny enough.
And we were all talking one night, and he was talking about, at one point, they had the largest page on Facebook ever.
And he was then talking about how, like everyone else, he started losing their reach.
They couldn't send out messages.
And he was like, this idea of a blockchain and addresses, if I have a consent mechanism or they own something that I kind of put out, whether it's music or NFTs, et cetera.
It was just this mechanism by which it was an open pixel versus a closed pixel.
And this idea of an open pixel where your audience can never be taken from you and your ability to actually move your audience for one last time to a thing that can never actually be taken away from you, I think is a deep pain that every single creator, the largest people in their audiences in the world have.
And whether it's Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Messenger, WhatsApp, whatever, there's a centralized company changing the rules, making up the rules by which you own and reach your audience.
And I think that's got to change.
And this open pixel versus a closed pixel, I think, fundamentally changes the relationship.
So when you invent new content types like Stani and Packy and Tara, you're talking about a new experiences and new relationships.
Everyone has the pain over the last 15 years of losing their audience to these platforms.
And I think that pain is great enough for us to invent new ways to interact.
But people aren't going to be like, oh, I'm not going to move.
If we can actually make it better, I'm pretty sure everyone will move.
Braveheart, we're going into battle with you, Shane.
Packy, you want to get in there too?
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good point.
Building on that, it feels like there's kind of late-stage capitalism.
We're also in late-stage Twitter or late-stage social where everyone's figured out the rules of the game.
And so you see the same, like, you know, these are the 99% of people who are idiots and don't understand AI.
And, like, here's the seven things that they missed and whatever.
And it forces even someone like Mike Janota with, like, the hugest, the biggest Facebook page, if you want to reach your actual audience to create shittier, kind of, like, just more memetic, like, similar content that you know works on those platforms in order to reach your own audience.
And then when you do reach your audience, they think that you're a loser because you've changed and started adopting to this kind of type of content that works for the algorithm.
So even just in the ability to kind of continue reaching your audience in a way that they actually want as opposed to the way that the algorithm wants, I think, is a really important thing.
So if we can get away from it, I think the time is ripe for new forms of interaction.
I'd, like, love this idea of how can you figure out an algorithm that rewards novelty?
Like, you might run out of different ways to do it pretty quickly.
But, like, it just pains me that the same kind of content does well over and over and over and over again.
So I think the time is now for some new content types and letting those people who built up their audiences connect with them in an authentic way.
What are all the Threadboys going to do?
Oh, my God.
It's so funny.
I'm not shedding a tear for them.
Yeah, I think about things like Patreon and Twitch, places that, I guess, tried to foster a more connected relationship between the audience and the user, sorry, the audience and the creator, where they felt like they had more control over who saw what, who got to experience what, because there was kind of this paywall element to it.
And there's even more that I can't even think of right now.
But so let's move on to the next question.
If open source protocols do succeed in the social media space, how do you anticipate it will impact businesses building at the application layer?
What adjustments or adaptations might they need to make?
This can, we can start with Shane on this one.
Yeah, I just go back to kind of the history of protocols and platforms, and I don't think it's going to look too different.
I think history, you know, doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it rhymes.
And when I think about even social or messaging or any of this right now, the shift happening, the shift in protocols actually comes from shifts in platforms as well, and they're kind of interlinked.
And so if I think about, you know, take SMTP for email, and how do you enable email addresses to communicate on the internet or SMS for texting?
How do you make phone numbers communicate on mobile phones?
Twitter really is a protocol for how do you make SMS social?
They kind of all just evolve on each other.
I think the question now is, how do you make the new address?
I think wallet addresses would be that, both messageable and social.
And that really is the question I think we're all going after.
And what are the applications and the platform shifts that need to adopt protocols?
So wallets of today, whether MPC wallets, smart contract wallets, self-custody wallets, to then be more social and messageable, which then lend itself to all the applications and the coordination, the delivery, the verification, how AI is going to come into this space and kind of like change the application layer.
I think it opens up infinite opportunities.
And so I just feel like it's going to play out very similarly, where platforms will adopt these protocols.
They'll become more messageable and more socials, which will then enable more platforms and services to be built infinitely.
And I think hopefully it looks very similar.
I've got to hear how Paki's thinking about this, because if brands and communities can own and individuals can own their connections, all of their content, all of their data, that means that there are fewer moats for platforms, which is definitely good for those, like brands and those individuals.
But it definitely reduces the moat of platforms to retain users.
So Paki, what are your thoughts here?
Yeah, I wrote something on a related topic recently, and I'm obsessed with the idea of what happens when applications stop trying to be the next Facebook, kind of like assume that you're not going to get those moats and you're not going to get those long lasting network effects and that you're going to be the supernova, something like, and it's on a social network, but you look at something like Alenza that kind of exploded, made a ton of money and then faded into the background as applications become easier and easier and easier to make.
And huge, huge, huge Facebook-sized networks become harder and harder and harder and harder to build.
How do you build something that benefits from that kind of short life, that short, like bright, huge for a little while and then dead the next week kind of life?
What I came up with was this idea of small applications growing protocols and so how do protocols incentivize these apps to come build on them and bring them users and data and all of that type of stuff where the user's data and value kind of accrue to the protocol layer, but the apps are almost these like beautiful, quirky customer acquisition tools.
And they get rewarded with tokens and upside of the protocol and upside of the protocol does well.
Like what if instead of killing Farmville, the Farmville creators got Facebook equity for building on top of Facebook?
You know, they, I mean, it's saying that they did fine, but you know, you can imagine making a shitload of money by getting that early equity for bringing users to Facebook and keeping them there.
So how do you build apps in a way that assume that you're not going to have a moat and you're not going to last for a very long time?
Paki, I wanted to just say that is like an incredible way to think about it.
And something we talk about at XMTP is no more cold starts for developers.
Yeah.
Like one thing we bring to the table is actually you can plug into the XMTP network and you have a network by the default and same with Lens, right?
And I think that's such a cool value add for developers where there's no more cold start.
You can build something really cool and then you can build a different idea.
But because you can plug into a network, you actually get all of that value instantly.
You don't have that cold start problem to overcome.
Yeah.
And also I really like this question about kind of like there isn't really a moat.
Because I have this concept I usually refer to is called like liquid citizen.
It's something that I kind of like observed from the DeFi days is that like once like certain protocols, they become mature enough and they like, in DeFi, it's very important to, you know, to have safe protocols and they achieve that safety parity.
You know, there isn't really like anything holding a user from going from one protocol to another if they get a better, let's say, financial incentive, for example.
And I think probably that might happen across the whole, but too, you know, it's very easy to move from one application to another or one protocol to another.
And that can be reflective as well.
I do see like, for example, in the lens ecosystem, one of these applications that are built, they are starting to actually think that what could be actually our way of finding our audience and what specifically we want to target and what kind of features we want to build.
And even beyond that, like, what is the thing we want to build behind of the application.
And it's actually quite cool because you start actually seeing all these amazing things about building going beyond like, hey, we don't want to build something that resembles Twitter.
We actually want to build a specific experience and make something unique here.
So I do think that the idea of like when the power is on the users and that's how the internet was built.
So we had a decent internet and we decided to actually have more centralized business focused internet where we have better user experience.
But at the same time, we gave a lot of the data and abilities to the platform.
So I do think that that choice for the users will actually incentivize the client developers and to build also interesting experiences, but also algorithms as well.
And I really like what Shane and Maki, you all were talking about the idea of actually like there is existing network and tapping into that.
So in some ways, like I see that, that benefit there because like if you already have a user base, you know, they're using a protocol and you can easily just build something small and new and exciting and tap into that existing ecosystem.
And this is very hard normally when you build social media application because you are starting from completely from the scratch and you have to onboard the users, create them accounts.
And there's a lot of isolation and there's a lot of isolation and our way of building everyone up here is basically just like more open way that we actually like once you create an account and someone builds something very cool, you can actually tap into the existing ecosystem.
So I really like the, I don't, what did you say?
Like you bring, you have from day one, you have that network.
I don't know what, what wording Shane you were using, but that's the, that's the key there.
No cold start.
No cold start.
Exactly.
No cold start.
Yeah.
I love that.
Yeah.
That, that, that's a, that would be revolutionary actually.
Um, yeah, because I feel like every time we're always starting from scratch and this is coming from the perspective of a creative, right?
Whether I'm joining a new, uh, platform to, to possibly build an audience for my work, like for me to go over to TikTok now, it's like, uh, it just looks like so big.
There's all these people there, but the amount of work that I would need to do to get those people to see me is kind of insane.
Um, even though I'm utilizing an existing kind of ecosystem, I know it's not exactly the same, but that's how I think about it.
When I'm like talking to a brand, they're like, Oh, we really want to start an Instagram.
And I'm like, I honestly don't know how far you're going to get at this stage in the game because the, the days of, and I've been in social for over a decade.
And I always worked on, I, I, I, I always worked on the brand side and we were literally watching people scale their Facebook pages, their Instagram platforms, you know, you know, 10 X within six months, a year.
When the algorithm was kind of like free for all, and you didn't have to pay for anything, the glory days of Instagram and, uh, and social.
And, um, and it's, it's kind of like, what's the opportunity now, especially cause I'm thinking about it a lot of times from the creator side of the brand side.
Like what's the opportunity now to go into one of these legacy platforms and try to build something or, you know, what's the opportunity to go into something new that has, uh, kind of an advancement in terms of, uh, you know, or a decentralization, how they've constructed it.
So that I get like true ownership over my audience and my communications, um, you know, but are people ready for that?
And are people going to, you know, uh, you know, uh, adopt that or is it easier for me to go to some of the old platforms that, um, that are already, you know, up and running and, and, and, and have that scale.
Um, but I want to quickly reset the room and then open it up for questions.
So for those of you who are new to nerd out, welcome.
Each week we use this panel, panel style format to continue building the bridge between web two and web three.
Um, be sure to retweet the space, come up and ask questions and follow the hosts and the guests to stay involved.
So we're going to do some questions.
We'll start with, uh, Chris, Chris Tafarius.
I hope I said that right.
Um, welcome.
Uh, please ask your question and direct it to the person who you would like to answer.
I actually didn't have a question.
I was going to offer a perspective from somebody who's actually building on both lens and XMTP,
but I can set down if that wasn't the intention.
Ooh, this is intriguing.
Let's hear it.
Yeah.
So it's, you know, the kind of piggybacking off of what Sonny and Shane just said is, you know,
the number one thing that actually got me most interested in lens was that I watched and kind
of saw what happened with Farmville and all the apps that were building on top of Facebook
and same thing with Twitter.
And what actually got me most excited was that those, that encouragement of building
apps on top of, you know, lens and XMTP is actually encouraged.
Right.
So that was, you know, one of the things I thought was most interesting.
And then as a creator who uses these platforms day in and day out, you know, the, the idea
or I guess the opportunity or, you know, really the dream is that, you know, if these platforms
take off and really become, you know, the go-to spaces that, you know, the creators and
the people, you know, content creators and just people in there hustling, grinding, reply
guys, thread or whatever you want to call them that are in there are going to pay significant
dividends probably if these platforms take off in the future.
So it just, you know, was my two cents from somebody who's actually in there using these
platforms day in and day out.
That's not a builder or an investor.
Although I wish I probably was, so just, just some input from somebody who's in there
using them.
No, that's great.
Thank you for sharing.
And I think we have another person who came up to the stage.
Is it jaded?
Do you want to, do you have a question for one of the panelists?
Yeah.
Thanks guys.
Great space so far.
I think this question is for Stani, but maybe someone else has a good answer too.
Um, I'm a builder in the space, uh, looking at building decentralized social media, obviously
lens is, you know, top of the list.
There's a few competitors, but, um, you know, it's a two part question.
One, I know we're moving away from platforms to kind of ecosystems in the early days of Facebook.
Um, people who were building apps could kind of use the Facebook SDK and build all these
really rich experiences.
Is then Facebook changed that.
So I know that like, if I were to use lens and my app, even if it does change after the
fact, it wouldn't kind of ruin anything, which is a great value add.
But in a weird way, are you competing with the other large social graph ecosystem players
like cyber connect or like ceramic or Orbis, what they're doing.
If me as a creator wants to create on one of the many lens apps, uh, my content will basically
surface anywhere.
There are people who are following me, follow me on all of the lens apps, but that doesn't
necessarily apply to people who are on cyber connect or on ceramic Orbis.
So is there, I guess, some module above those three where me as a creator can have this content
surface anywhere?
Um, or is at this point you just kind of have to pick, uh, not a walled garden, but a walled
ecosystem.
Thanks guys.
Uh, that's actually, that's a super good question from like developers perspective and, uh, uh,
like the person that it's most like, uh, helpful for like developer questions later here, but
I, I'm trying to give up a bit more, uh, answer from my perspective.
So I personally think I will be super excited and I, I would say I will be, um, I'll be happy
of our work.
Um, you know, every single person on the planet will have the lens profile, but also at the
same time, we don't really need, like, like we need choices.
Um, and choices, uh, and choices also means that not just the fact that your profile is portable
and where we choose your algorithm, but also you need choices on the, uh, protocol, uh, aspect.
Um, and the way I want to describe is that, um, you can, as a user, you can create a, uh, profile
on lens and, you know, you can follow a bunch of people that are exciting and, you know,
um, you can build a lot of cool stuff just by focusing on the lens ecosystem.
Um, if you want to build something that's kind of like aggregates everything, um, nothing
stops to actually aggregating everything that it's existing and using Web3 technologies
like blockchain and, and also the data availability, uh, availability layers, uh, or even like the
federated models.
So like, you can, like, it's really up to you what you want to build and you shouldn't
be limited, uh, from the perspective of like building specifically, uh, lens or any of the
other protocols.
I think it's more about like, what is the problem you want to solve and how you get
actually user adoption and maybe early users.
In some cases, maybe lens can be helpful because there's a certain amount of, uh, users
that are very active.
So whatever you build, you might get a good, uh, kind of like a, uh, as Shane mentioned
that you don't have the cold start problem.
Um, but you shouldn't really like be in a position like where you have to integrate everyone
or choose.
You have to just figure out like what are you trying to solve and what are the best tool
kits because end of the day, these are, uh, protocols.
Um, and if you're building an application, um, on that level, you can actually choose to support
whatever you actually need to achieve your goal.
So I don't think it's about picking or choosing much.
It's more about like what suits best of what you're trying to achieve.
Um, and I, I hope that in the future, you know, uh, most of the users are on, um, decentralized
protocols, but there should be multiple because that keeps kind of like the diversity across the
whole ecosystem.
Like that's where you see more innovation when, when there's, uh, optionality on the
protocol level.
I feel so smarter, so much smarter after today.
Like all the things y'all are brilliant.
Thank you so, so much, Stani, Packy, and Shane for joining us.
I know we are really close to time.
So let's go through and for anything you want to shill or share, um, just allowing you all
to let people know where to find you other than on Twitter.
Um, and what you've got coming up.
So Packy, why don't we start with you?
Uh, yeah, this was a ton of fun.
Thanks for having me.
Uh, you can find everything that I'm writing and doing at not boring.co.
Shane, what you got for us?
Yeah, everything XMTP.org.
I'm Shane Mack on Twitter, obviously.
My thing is just about the developers.
We're talking about how to protocols and how to platforms grow.
The reality is if you've worked on web two platforms for the last 15 years, you spent
15 years getting rugged, getting screwed over by the API is changing the business models
change the entire ecosystem changing beneath our feet and the ability to change our entire
relationship with how developers and protocols and platforms build together in a better,
more sustainable and more aligned way is just an incredible opportunity that I feel really
lucky to be a part of.
So I'm excited to just keep building with more developers.
Braveheart.
That is my new.
Oh my God.
I'm ready.
Whatever you can do.
And I'm, I'm, I'm going along with it.
Danny, what have you got?
Yeah.
Yeah, you can follow me on, on, on, on, across the lens ecosystem.
And, and also like, you can shoot me, uh, DMs across, uh, XMTP protocol.
Um, and, and obviously on my Twitter, um, I'm also on Reddit.
So I use pretty much any social media that is like, um, exciting, uh, for me.
And, um, and obviously a bunch of, uh, Facebook channels, which are becoming quite messy, uh,
at this point.
Uh, and I'm, I'm super happy to be here.
Honestly, I, I really, I, I've been thinking quite a lot recently.
Like we create so much content online these days and there isn't like, even like a secure
way of storing most of the content we create.
So for example, what will happen if medium goes down today or any other, uh, blogging
platform, like where we can actually store some of the artifacts because we create history
today online.
Um, and it's very valuable and meaningful.
So, you know, being able to store that somewhere is, is very important for every one of us.
So, um, but yeah, I'm, I'm super honored, nice to be here and thank you so much.
I feel like I need to talk to all three of you, like a round table about sync.
Tara, it's the, it's like the technology that runs communications in the world and LCOA.
And I don't know enough, but I feel like you guys could basically teach me how to make that.
This is a power squad for sure.
Yeah, this is a power squad.
No doubt.
This is a power squad.
Um, look, look out for that email, everyone.
Um, so yeah, we'd like to thank everyone for joining us.
Danny, Paki, Shane, thank you for being here and sharing all of your brilliant knowledge
and also making it digestible.
Like that we could follow along and I can understand what you're talking about.
Um, really, really impressive work.
Um, and, uh, we'd like to thank our radio for supporting us as creators and bad girls
creative club for bringing us together.
Um, check out LCOA 2052.
If you like sci-fi.
Um, I'm the author and we are pioneering web three.
We have a launch coming up June 6th and check out could create if you're looking to innovate
on what community means to you, your brand, your service, your product.
Um, yeah.
Yes.
Thank you so much.
All of our guests.
Thank you to the audience and, um, stay tuned for a tweet.
We're going to be linking out to a telegram channel because of course we're linking across
platforms, um, for those who want to have voice and say into what future topics are and
future guests.
So appreciate everyone being here.
I just want to say Tara, Jason, you guys are, you guys are great hosts.
So thank you very much for putting this all together.
Oh, that's so sweet.
Um, great to see you and Paki.
You too.
Thanks everyone.
Join us next week.
We'll be talking about, uh, understanding web two and pioneering web three when it comes
to fiction, fiction, literature, fiction, storytelling.
Um, yeah.
So we'll see you next week.
Thanks.
Bye everyone.
Bye.
