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NEUTRON NATION: Astroport & Duality Integration
Recorded: May 7, 2025 Duration: 1:02:48Space Recording
Short Summary
AstroPort and Duality have officially integrated, enhancing trading capabilities and liquidity management for users. This partnership is set to drive growth in trading volume, yield opportunities for liquidity providers, and increased emissions for Astro token holders.
Full Transcription
Music Thank you. you Thank you. Greetings.
Hey, sir. Can you hear me well?
Yeah, I hear you loud and clear how do i sound
hello hello perfect crisp as zion's beard oh that's a that's a lofty place to be so it must
sound really good last week we were messing around it was it was late night for the east
coast and i had my microphone plugged in it was was like the smooth sounds of the jazz station on the radio late at night.
So hopefully we can reach that same caliber of audio quality this week.
We can only reach that quality if you bring the narration.
I'm not as smooth jazz speaker as you are.
Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to another fine episode, Neutron Nation.
Big shout out to all the ladies out there.
We're talking about some integration this week.
Talking a little AstroPort, a little duality.
We know how to keep you happy out there.
Okay, yeah, I'm convinced convinced where do i sign up for marriage
all right well anyway excited to uh to talk a little bit should we should we wait a couple
more minutes before we jump into it or should we get going? We have all our speakers here.
We could wait like maybe another minute
to see if anyone else comes in.
We already see some finely integrated people
in the audience, Fildo4719,
the new aspiring new validator
all in the audience.
So thank you all for coming.
Yeah.
Yeah, let's maybe wait like one more minute
and then we can kick it off while we're still making small talk i uh i invited elijah to join
as well but he's he's running scared because i said hey i'm gonna invite you and then i'm gonna
invite the curve guys to come in and we can have like a math competition. And he was like, so anyway, and he presses his good press, right?
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, uh, I think that's good that like, I mean, curve to, in my opinion is like,
you know, that's one of the blue chips of like the first sort of defy revolutions or whatever.
And so, um, interesting to see like what
Michael is very very yeah very smart guy as well um so I was a bit surprised when when Elijah was
so vindicative about the product I was like I don't know man I haven't dug into the math but
you know I also trust your gut, so you do you.
And then the funny part of the story is I actually just met the co-founders of...
And they invited me to Shisha in Dubai and whatever.
And then this happens, like, I wasn't consulted about the post or anything, right?
But so Elijah publishes about this.
And then suddenly they're in my DM like,
bruh, I thought we were friends.
And then, you know, I cleared it out with them and stuff.
And they ended up being like,
actually, let's just have a nice intellectual contest.
Like we'll, you know, share our arguments to show what we think is wrong about the post.
And then, you know, they both engaged.
And I think that was a pretty good outcome.
Is every meeting in Dubai shared over Shisha?
I don't know if I can, cannot hear Spade.
Can you guys hear me?
I did not hear it.
Yeah,
I can hear you now.
he had to drop off and come back.
That's how I imagine business happens in Dubai though.
You got to share some shisha,
share the shisha.
And,
you know,
sometimes you got to talk a little math with the guys from
what i forget what the their name of their product is their new product but um it's it's you know
it's an interesting conversation to have especially with like with elijah because you know these are
two teams that are like big brained at math and they're they're both kind of you know treading
towards the same goal which is to unlock this, these financial derivatives of Bitcoin and allow people to, you know,
stop just holding, but actually earn some yield. And so for me, you know, I just get to grab some
popcorn and sit in the front row of like, what is this next sort of phase of BTC5 going to be?
And so that was, that was fun for me to just sit there and watch the arithmetic come out
in full force between those two guys. Anyway, we're not here to talk about that. We've got
our friend Andre from the Astroport team. I think it was a week ago or a couple of weeks ago,
we had announced the launch of Supervolts. And then the Astro team, you guys sprung it on us that finally the Astro port and the
duality integration was ready to launch.
And so we did it on this Monday, this past Monday.
We launched some comms about that.
And happy to have you here and happy to talk about this and talk about sort of, you know,
what are the benefits of this integration for not only traders, but for LPs, for Astro holders, for Neutron holders.
And, you know, maybe dive into some of the technicals of what's going on whenever you actually route a trade now through Astro Port.
And, yeah, get into all that good stuff.
So why don't you lead us off and let us know how you felt about this whole thing as you rolled it out.
Yeah.
Excited. You guys can hear me all right?
Yep.
Yeah, basically, this is a long time coming,
basically since the
duality was announced.
And essentially,
at least from the Astroport's
point of view, we've started looking
at...
Generally, people think about
AMMs and DEXs
being the same thing, but
it's not really the same thing, right?
AMM is an automated market maker.
Basically, it's
a strategy for market orders.
Let's say it like that.
So it's more like focus on the LP side of things, which then enables traders to basically
trade against those strategies.
A DEX is, as the name mentions, this centralized exchange.
And Wallet basically was built to be the DEX of Neutron, right?
To be like the venue where anyone comes to trade and post their orders, do whatever they want to do with it.
So it's very dynamic, like it's arbitrary, right?
Like anyone can post liquidity there.
And so since basically Duality was announced, we've always had many questions like, oh, does this replace Astroport?
Because people associate AMMs as being DEXs.
And the reality is Astroport itself is more an AMM than a DEX.
The DEX is like a byproduct of being an AMM. So duality was always for us very synergistic in a way that it is the place where things or people will be trading against each other, right?
So this was something that was very, very important for Astroport and for Neutron in general, because that way the Astroport users, traders, and that liquidity isn't really isolated
from, let's say, the ecosystem.
So this way we start posting
liquidity on duality. So basically
the same thing,
the same type of
AMM strategy that we
are giving to users through
our pools, now those pools
are also posting that liquidity
directly on duality. So whenever pools are also like posting that liquidity directly on Duality.
So whenever you are trading through the order book,
you might be matching with our pools
like Azure Ports liquidity.
And basically, this is very important
for Neutron in general
because like order books always have this problem of like a
call start problem in a way. Like you need liquidity in order to attract traders and then you need
traders in order to attract liquidity, right? So basically you have all this chicken and egg.
Like any market, it's a very hardcore problem to solve. So a lot of like, obviously the most common way to solve this is basically you pay market makers and done, right?
But that's generally like very costly.
So for these, what I think, what basically Neutron is trying to do is we're trying to go to market without any of these, let's say,
I wouldn't call it really like artificial, but of artificial ways of cold-starting a market.
What we're doing is we are leveraging Azure Ports liquidity to cold-start the order book.
And basically, we'll start to be the, let's call it, ambient liquidity on duality.
will start to be like the, let's call it ambient liquidity on duality.
And that way, basically, anyone that's trading on the DEX,
if they match with Astroport's liquidity, we kind of both win, right?
Astroport basically has a new source of volume.
Right now, the reality is the majority of swaps are still coming through Astroport.
Right now, the reality is the majority of swaps are still coming through Astroport.
Basically, the majority of the volume on Neutron is still on Astroport directly.
But as soon as we start to see more integrations, and especially with the super vaults,
these strategies start to compete with each other.
And that's where really the fun starts, right? And then from there, basically, we kind of start
a little like friendly war, so to speak.
And then eventually, hopefully, more like actors come along
and joining in the fun.
So yeah, there's a couple more things that I think
are interesting, but yeah, I don't want to dominate too much of the conversation right now.
I think that's a nice intro, I think.
I think that's an interesting point you brought up about the bootstrapping order books in general.
You never want to see just an empty order book because that's not what a trader wants to see.
And it doesn't make anyone that's posting liquidity to that order book profitable because it's probably not going to attract traders. So that's a what a trader wants to see and and it doesn't make um like anyone that's posting
liquidity to that order but profitable because it's probably not going to attract traders so
that's a really good point oftentimes yeah either market makers or also like incentives can solve
that problem but yeah both of those are not organic and they're costly because if you're
going to incentivize people to to put orders just like to put orders up and make the trades and
that's not really very productive and so
integrating the astroport lps you're you're already incentivizing the liquidity on astroport
um you know using like various ecosystem tokens like astro and neutron um and then that liquidity
is then posted to the order book so in some way we are incentivizing it but in a way that
astroport is is doing so to benefit astroport. It's feeding directly back into Astroport's revenue model.
It seems like a quite an elegant solution to the Cold Start problem, like you said.
Yeah, exactly.
And yeah, I think it's very tricky to incentivize liquidity on the order book.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think this is a very nice way. yeah yeah so yeah
I think this is
a very nice way
and the thing is
like
the strategy
that basically
Neutron
as an ecosystem
chose
right
and I say we
because I believe
we are part of
the ecosystem
obviously
was basically
SuperVaults
provide like
the best
possible execution
at all times
meaning it gives you like whatever the price should be at.
But the thing is, Supervolts,
either they are very risky in the sense that
they put all their money into that place of the curve,
let's say point of the curve,
or they have to manage that strategy a little
bit better. But regardless, you're never going to have like infinite liquidity there, right?
So what PCL is great at also is because, or PCL or XRK or whatever, obviously PCL is much superior,
but basically it also provides the ambient liquidity, right? So not only you get like the best execution for the regular joe trader but
also hopefully especially this is more relevant to mars and lending markets when they have to do
liquidations and if it's a big liquidation they need to have liquidity available at all times so
by pcl posting liquidity on the on on your book essentially essentially we also put the ambient liquidity, which is
the liquidity to the left and to the right, which you think about it.
So, yeah, I think that's great in that sense.
For people that maybe don't know what a PCL is, can you explain what PCL is and why that
infrastructure is unique to Astroport?
Yeah, you guys mentioned Curve,
so I do have to make that disclosure.
It's unique in the Cosmos space or Astroport.
Maybe now not so much with Baby and Power,
but that's another discussion.
Yeah, that's exactly what you're saying.
It's unique to Astroport, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, true. But basically, it's very what you're saying. It's unique to Astroboard, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
True.
But basically, it's very inspired by Curve.
But essentially, a BCL pool is the best way I always, like, maybe it's not the best way
to answer it, but think about the stable swap pool.
Stable swap is essentially, like the name says, stable swap, meaning you can easily, you are trading around like two prices,
two assets that are like correlated in the price,
but not just correlated,
also like kind of one-to-one more or less.
So that's a stable swap.
Think about like stables, USCC, USCT.
What PCL does is basically uses the stable swap math to concentrate around a determined price and basically still be able to be dynamic like an XYK to be able to change its price.
Because XYK always changes the price according to market conditions.
Stable swap generally like tries to
force as best as possible to be a price of one so pcl is the combination of both it's like
integrating both math formulas it's like okay if we are like if neutron is at 20 cents that's
i'm gonna like that's what i'm gonna be forcing the pool to trade at,
regardless of the swaps.
It's not really regardless,
because there's some magic behind it
that eventually accepts the price to be moved.
But basically, that's how I like to explain it.
It's like a combination of both.
Stable swap for the heavily concentrated liquidity,
and then XYK when it needs to move the
price because it's it's outdated now uh so yeah that's that's pretty much like how pcl works kind
of under under the hood and to be clear the the benefits of that approach is um what are the
benefits is that that it allows you to concentrate more liquidity
around the current price,
which is where most of the volume is expected to occur?
Or how would you put it?
Yeah, I think that's a big one.
You have much more concentration of liquidity.
So in XYK, let's say only 5% or 10% of liquidity is actually usable.
With PCL, maybe it's like 20%, 25%.
So that's like 2x usability in terms of the liquidity being available at a certain price.
But also, it is much more prone.
It is much more prone.
It's less prone to volatility in the sense that it actually tries to period like of 15 20 30 minutes the pool itself will try
to hold off to the price until it really understands okay the price actually moved so
this way the price actually never moved you are kind of protecting your lps to like that IL at that moment. And you are also capturing a lot of fees because one of the ways that the PCL works is has
dynamic fees.
And the dynamic fees are exactly what helps the pool itself be able to, when it needs
to repag, it helps counteract a little bit the IL effect that you get on an XYK pool.
But yeah, I would say basically, generally, it's much more profitable for LPs compared to XYK.
Secondly, it tries to, in a way, capitalize a little bit on some of the toxic flow
and also like
concentrates liquidity much more than the next.
Okay.
So you just mentioned something really interesting, which is toxic flow.
Do you want to, do you want to like share a bit more about what, you know,
market makers and like AMM designers can like referred to as like healthy flow and uh toxic
flow and like why why we should care yeah sure yeah basically this is i i don't think like there's a
uh i think the industry doesn't have yet like a full agreement on toxic flow like some people
just think like okay that's just flow right and you need it
to some extent it's true because but maybe let let me uh like take a step back so basically
when we mention toxic flow is generally when you are are being the pools right it's like
uh a very big problem with amms um is that they are always late to the game, to the party.
Because unless you are the price point discovery,
it will always be used to, in a way, get some value extracted.
Because if the actual price discovery is happening,
and generally nowadays is still on sexes.
What happens is some trader, some market maker can look at, okay, price has moved somewhere, has been steady and there's like very deep liquidity on, let's say, Binance.
use that pool of liquidity to basically kind of extract value from an AMM
because an AMM, it's not really a live being.
Like it's just there waiting for someone to do something with it.
The thing is when these traders are making swaps and trading against these pools,
they have like extra information that the pools don't have,
which is then when these ARBs happen.
Now, why some people say that this isn't really toxic flow is because you still need this to happen
for those pools to kind of re-peg and be at the correct market price.
But generally, this is seen as extractive
and toxic flow just because, yeah,
you are trading against it already knowing
that you are basically making money
versus just being like the regular flow
or retail users like swapping and just being it, right?
So yeah, that's what generally people mention
toxic flow is.
But yeah, the reality
is like if you have an AMM
like just a regular XYK
pool, if no one actually ARBs it or
trades it, then it will like stay
at a stale price. Obviously
for traders
that are doing, depending
on the direction of the trade, you will earn a lot more for those traders.
But for the other direction, it might not be as great.
So yeah, in my mind, we call it toxic flow, but I think it's just something you need unless you have a different type of solution, as we've mentioned many times before, like super vaults, which now they have this extra information, right?
So they are no longer posting a strategy without blinded or without data or info alpha.
Right. And so one of the nice emerging properties of this is like you now have...
So you can think of it as like, okay, so there's this layer of duality, right?
That's like, that's the DEX. And as you were saying, right,
there's like now multiple AMMs, market makers
onto that order book, right?
So you have SuperVaults, which use Oracles to price things.
And then you have PCL, which uses this math formula
based on its asset balances in order to set prices, right?
What's interesting is that now they can kind of like
trade with one another, right?
Do you want to tell us a little bit about like how that works and like what the benefits are, if any, and what the potential like risks or drawbacks might be?
Yeah, so I think like a little bit based on what we were discussing around like toxic flow.
Essentially, this toxic flow now gets captured by the super vault, right?
Instead of some external actor.
So I think like a really good benefit of this is that at least it's an ecosystem participant
that we know that is here to stay, right?
So he's not going to take that liquidity and go away.
So we're going to use that to put more into the super vault and basically, because the
super vault is still like somewhat like a pool,
it's a strategy.
So there's gonna be LPs there.
So those LPs are winning.
So if someone has to win,
at least someone from the ecosystem should win.
Secondly, it will also help,
like we still have to really see all of these
with the real data now but in theory is still
it will it should help a lot pcl pools like repag much faster because now the super vault is just
like kind of there instantly like forcing pcl to correctly press itself um it does it by basically kinda let's say extract some of the value but regardless
someone has to do have to do it and at least a super vault is something that's automated and
it's doing it um as soon as possible based on its oracle price so uh so yeah basically
like that that goes hand and and the hand and basically basically that really is like a very strong benefit.
Yeah, I think that's a big one there.
Yeah, I think definitely.
I think another thing
that's kind of interesting
to think about is like,
okay, so there's these two pools
and such, right?
And I think I've had a question
in the community before of like,
hey, if supervolts are so great, why don't we just move everything to supervolts, right?
Well, first, there's these really interesting relationships between the two pools. And
they're also kind of like optimized for slightly different things. So depending on the market
conditions, like sometimes supervolts will win and sometimes PCL will win. And overall,
it just makes for like a much better kind of like market.
But there's kind of like another angle to this, which is like, which assets are
these pools made for, if that makes sense, right?
In the sense that, for example, Supervolts, because they rely on an Oracle, well,
they only work for stuff that you can have Oracles for, right?
So for example, like, you know, the blue chips and such are well listed on centralized
exchanges. That's fine. That's
easy. Just query
get all the price data through
Slinky, update that on-chain, and
boom, you're done.
The derivatives
and such, like DropsD assets and stuff,
you can kind of create
custom oracles
that look at the backing and the redemption
speed and such. And you can create oracles around that as well that are pretty decent.
But for example, for new tokens and meme coins and DeFi positions and such, you're probably
never going to be able to have a very reliable oracle for these things right and
so like whenever price discovery happens well super vaults are not ideal for that right like
in that case you want to have some kind of a market maker that has some kind of algorithm
for market making which is exactly what xyk and pcl and stable swaps kind of kind of do is that
is that right like the right way of thinking about it andre yeah that's exactly
correct um essentially like super vaults are great but they cannot be the place where price discovery
happens uh because just that's just not how it's an invariant it's impossible for that to happen
um so yeah super vaults are very are great for very well known assets and prices.
And I would still say like, because the argument could then be, okay, then for bull ships, we don't use any pools.
We just use super vaults.
But I think like one thing that at least right now, our supervolts are designed,
they still don't, like I mentioned a little bit before,
they still don't provide this ambient liquidity,
meaning for a liquidator, they need the assurance.
And for them to be able to sleep at night,
a pool gives them that assurance because essentially they know that to the limit, they can always sell at an infinite price, so to speak.
And what I mean by this is to a limit, you can always sell or dump something.
Whereas, let's say a super vault could at some point decide not to post liquidity because the prices are moving too fast or whatever it could do to protect itself
and basically take out a lot of the liquidity.
And essentially, a pool will never do that because it's naive and kind of dumb.
But that way, you always have liquidity to be able to trade against.
And that, in a way, is also, I think, a little bit one of the benefits of a pool versus a vault or super vault in this case.
But yeah, basically, like we've said many times, I think they really work in hand very close together.
work and hand very close together.
They are symbiotic.
They are symbiotic.
And yeah, I think in general
for the overall ecosystem,
it's great to have them both
working together essentially.
Yeah, you make a really good point.
And this is actually interesting about
not just like on-chain market making,
but if you look at traditional finance,
in general circumstances,
you have a bunch of
people providing liquidity in market making.
And because there's a ton of competition between them, you end up with really, really great
execution, like infinitely small spreads.
But as soon as shit hits the fan, most of them go into risk management mode.
They stop providing liquidity because they're afraid that they're going to take bad trades and lose money.
And as a result of this, like suddenly when, when liquidity is needed the most, all of
the liquidity dries out.
Right.
And like pools in a way kind of like solve this problem because they're, they're kind
of like the market makers of last resorts, because whatever the conditions are, they
will follow the algorithm that they have, um, that, you know, that is enshrined
in their logic, basically, and continue market making under all circumstances. And this is like
something that's very valuable, exactly, as you were saying, for like liquidators, which means
that it's valuable for anything that relies on the ability to exchange between these positions,
right? So like, all like protocols like mars and like um and amulet
and others right who have these kind of like derivatives and or leverage and or credit
positions uh who have entered different trades and such um they need that liquidity to be able to to
close positions that are underwater to liquidate to allow users to enter and exit these positions
during these circumstances and so effectively pool kind of like do this like network welfare thing
of like ensuring that there's always some baseline of liquidity that's available
so that the markets don't just like break down, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it's like frozen food when there's nothing else.
It's great.
It's almost similar to like uh it's almost similar
to like why shorts in a market are actually a healthy thing even if like you're bullish on an
asset you should always have some short interest open because they're always going to be buyers of
last resort if the price is going down right because then they can take profits yeah like
you always need like some sort of check and balances in any system to keep things sane.
Otherwise, you can get into a very bad corner, right?
And a lot of these are still very experimental.
But one thing that we know for sure is that these AMMs and pools are still like,
they still work in the sense that you can still trade through um i think it's great that we are like trying to get to the frontier
of the best executioner possible but we still like should be careful with how we approach it
and we basically roll it out in a way that it's safe um so yeah
so can you well go ahead sorry uh this might be a bit of a rabbit hole slash um slash kind of like distraction from the the main topic of conversation but i i i
i understood something recently that took me a while to understand, which I think can be a valuable indicator or thing to look at for people in this chat and in the audience and such.
Which is that crypto in general has funding rates that tend to be positive.
Overall, people tend to be long on assets rather than short on asset net net across
the industry.
But when you look at specific coins, sometimes you will see very negative funding rates,
but very high prices.
And that sort of like was a bit flabbergasting to me to some extent, right?
And I recently got, you recently got some alpha because people talk
at conferences and whatever on why this happens. And the general mechanism is basically you'll
have people who sell a bunch of tokens, like core contributors and founders and whatever,
will sell a bunch of the supply. Sometimes they'll use the proceeds in order to inject
liquidity into the chart or like pump the price.
But these buyers that are buying these assets are very well aware of what's going on, right? And so what they do is they want to lock in the high price, right? So they hedge by shorting the assets,
right? And so effectively, it's like people who don't care about the assets are buying the token
because the price is inflated. And then that money can sometimes even be used to like inflate it even further.
But so if you see a coin that has a very high price, but a very bad funding rate,
like very, very negative funding rate, that might be a sign that something is afoot here.
So in that case, like, I think that just might be an interesting, like,
thing to look at if you're actively looking into different
coins and whatever um so just just just i would share yeah that's a that's a very interesting
strategy yeah basically they are like kind of basically from what you mentioned which is true
at least i i've i've seen it basically funding rates are generally positive um like you basically
are farming the funding rate by shorting
and essentially you are hedged out with your buy so yeah that that makes a lot of sense
yeah and also the last missing piece of information about this strategy is like
why would somebody buy at the current price and then short just to hedge until their lock expires
that's not a profitable strategy.
Well, the thing is, these guys are buying OTC at very deep discounts.
Like earlier this year, for example,
there were a bunch of projects that were selling their assets at like 80% discount, which is, in my opinion, absolutely insane.
But so these guys are coming in, they're buying big batches with a very deep discount,
and then they use the current market, they hedge by shorting, and then whenever their lockup expires, they can
dump on the market and realize the discount, basically. The discount becomes their profit.
So yeah, just here's a piece of insight that you can use when DDing some coins. Anyway, sorry for
the disruption. I think, Pan had a you had a topic in
mind no i i um i appreciate that aside actually because that's like some of the inside baseball
that i think people don't don't think about and um like on its face you you tend to get caught up
in like this thinking where it's uh you look at the funding rate of this coin that's already sky
high and you're like,
wait a minute, like, is this going to be like a like a short squeeze or like this has to come down at some point and it doesn't make sense. And then you said that kind of like reconciles that
that issue. But I was going to talk a little bit about like the I guess I'm still curious, like how does the,
how does the liquidity that comes in it's, it's not, whenever someone is placing liquidities into like an Astro port PCL,
that's not then being split up and like somehow being distributed into like a
super vault. Right. Or, or is it?
Yeah. So basically I guess like the question is
how does actually like the liquidity from AstroPort
get onto duality?
I would say like...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's more like, okay.
Yeah, so basically, this is actually not that easy to do
because the thing about like algo, like
AMMs, which have like an algorithm behind it, it's essentially like a function, a mathematical
function, and that's like a curve.
And like a function is not to get too nerdy.
If I've let me see if I remember my math classes,
but generally you have like a continuous function or you could have like a discrete function.
Generally like MMs are continuous functions, right?
Which means like regardless of the decimal number
because numbers are infinite,
that you put into the function, it will speed out something, right?
A discrete function, in this case, generally order books are somewhat discrete,
they could be continuous if someone infinitely was putting orders across all possible infinite prices, but not to blow our heads.
Basically, it's discrete, right?
So there is a possibility where if you try to put an amount in at a certain price, zero
comes out, right?
Because it's discrete.
There are steps or there's places where there's liquidity.
There's other places where there's not.
A continuous function, you always have liquidity, which's other places where there's not. A continuous function, like you always have liquidity,
which was somewhat what we were talking about.
So it's not super simple
to convert the continuous function
into a discrete one,
but it is possible.
Vice versa, it's not.
So what we do is
we basically try to convert
this continuous curve
and split it up.
And then this is kind of a la carte.
You choose how you want to do it, right?
What's the minimum step from...
And the idea here is like,
okay, the pool for a certain amount
spits out this price, right?
So what we do is at that moment, when we put that liquidity on C-duality,
what we will do is basically for that exact amount, we will put it at that price.
We actually have to worsen it a little bit because like I mentioned, PCL has dynamic fees.
because like I mentioned, PCL has dynamic fees.
And the problem is between when we post public video on duality
and when trades happen on the pool,
there might be a delay where the pool reconciliates.
So we always have to somewhat assume the worst possible fee, unfortunately.
And so, yeah, basically taking all of those prams we start like
recreating orders as if we were uh doing those swaps on our pool at that point and then like i
said it's configurable we can post like 10 orders 20 um. And that's like something that's adjustable.
And yeah, that's essentially it.
That's how the pool like tries to think about it
and then basically puts liquidity on the art book.
So how does this benefit like a user?
Because so I recently just started using like, well, I didn't just start, but I've been using, I've been, I've become a power user of SkipGo, which is like sort of this route aggregator that's finding like all the best trades. the user where they can get better execution if you could talk through that as compared to like
before where you know maybe it was just astro port alone is as one of these options compared
to like the other decks is out there does this does this make you more competitive amongst those
aggregators that are like pushing volume through all the various pairs i think like where we get more competitive
like the actual benefit goes to DLP
because
like let's say Duality
existed without anyone putting orders
into it and
Atroport was the liquidity
only liquidity place
regardless if we have the liquidity
on our pool or on Duality
Skip will always use the best price
and at that point will still be the exact same pool regardless of where that liquidity is at
right so for the trader if we don't in isolation if we think about it it's exactly the same thing
so it doesn't really make any difference at that point for For the LPs, it's a different question
because now, well, in isolation,
the LPs are still exactly the same, right?
Because either the route now would go through the pool
or the duality.
Where this really becomes interesting is,
like I mentioned,
now we have a lot of participants.
And I think, first,
integrations are much easier
because now they don't really have to think about Astroport.
They could just integrate directly to Duality, right?
Like Duality is the place, is the bazaar, is where we go to trade.
So basically as soon as you are integrated into Duality
then basically a byproduct of it is you get all the liquidity
that is trading at and
available on neutron and for dlps that's very like important because uh we don't want to miss on that
volume right um also like something that skip doesn't yet just do uh i don't know if they're
going to do in the future is they don't really do split trading trading right, I don't know if they're going to do in the future, is they don't really do split
trading, right? So they don't
split your amount and
try something like, okay, let's
trade 50% on Astroport,
Neutron, and 50% on
Osmosis, let's say. They don't do yet.
They don't do that yet.
And I
think once they start
doing that, or I mean mean even before they do that
now by Astroport being on duality
what happens is you kind of get splitting by default
at least on a single pair
because now we have all these venues
that are putting liquidity on the market
and all of them are in one single place
so for the trader is getting just
a trade through duality but in reality it might be getting a trade from duality where by that
liquidity came from different places right it could be astroport it could be astrovault it
could be supervault right it could even be both, all of them together. But for the
user, he doesn't need to understand
that. All he understands is, like, I bought
from Duality, the DEX itself,
right? So I
think at least that's one very
quick step to get kind of
order splitting
without having
to really build it.
Obviously, you still, like, if skip, like, you could, you could still go through different routes, meaning there's different
duality markets, but not to get too much into that rabbit hole.
But at least that's really one quick benefit.
You get those splits by default just because everyone's posting liquidity on Wallet.
And I think this really helps.
And the key word is integrated, right?
Everyone gets integrated
because everything is on the same place,
on the same venue.
And if you are the best participant,
then you get matched, essentially.
You get your trade routed
through um and that's and that that's much easier and better for anyone that's integrating because
now they they can just rely on a single point of contact let's say so just to echo what you're
saying there just to make sure that i kind of understand is kind of the beauty of duality is like that they can kind of host these different LPs, whatever the structure is of that, be it super vaults or PCL, or even just like, you know, vanilla book, if they're taking the price from point A to point B, they could actually be using the liquidity of three or four different strategies.
And from their perspective, it doesn't really matter because it's just a single trade, a single action for the user, right?
yeah exactly um like once also like one thing that i've been really thinking about is uh and
Yeah, exactly.
and this is something that i kind of unlocked recently by especially because of duality like
the whole work that we've been doing on duality because right now a couple of the pools we are
still like tinkering with some of the parameters to like make sure we get like good volumes and execution on duality.
Because at the end of the day, what we want is the best price execution for any strategy.
But essentially what you realize is, let's say you have 100% of the liquidity and 100% of the liquidity is 1 million.
The reality is you can only really,
like the useful liquidity is like not even 10%.
That's something that I really realized
because it's really not that useful.
Like let's say for us, for Astroport,
like we could try to put like 100 of liquidity onto
the order book the thing is first of all you pay a lot of fees to do that and second of all
it's really not that useful because a couple of the orders will be so far out the price
like completely like in a in a whole like different in on mars almost like in a different
universe that it doesn't even make sense to put that liquidity on the other book.
And that really, visualizing that,
you really understand that at any moment,
your actual use slash useful liquidity is like so tiny
that that really opens up for, I guess, other types of usability.
Meaning, imagine if only 10% of your liquidity is really being used or posted onto Duality,
that means if we use a different type of structure for our pools, which would need to be different than what we have right now, that would mean that 90% is sitting on the pool on the contract doing nothing.
And something that I guess could be like an easy gain is you can just loan, let's say it's USCC, just loan USCC on Mars.
is you can just loan, let's say it's USCC,
just loan USCC on Mars.
Oh, there's a swap coming in
and we need a couple more of that liquidity actually now.
Okay, just withdraw it instantly.
But at least in the meantime,
you are actually putting that money to work
instead of just sitting there, hide all capital.
So that's something that really kind of unlocked um by
thinking about these um and really trying to think of what other strategies and things like that they
always need to be instant like you still need to have that liquidity available readily available
but there are certainly ways to capture capitalize a lot a lot of these. So yeah, that's, that's something
that's, that's, I think, interesting.
Are you dropping alpha on us right now? Are you saying that
you're going to be looking to build something where you put
idle, idle capital and LPs integrated into other
applications?
Possibly. Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That's not just Avril.
I love that we're building a culture of leakage.
One thing that I was thinking about is like,
you could, for volatile pairs, right?
Like the thing that makes them so hard
to attract LPH2
is that everybody's very concerned,
as they should,
about impermanent loss.
And so it's a much harder sell.
But with perps on Neutron now,
you could potentially implement
some kind of a system whereby
part of the liquidity in the pool is actually used or the pool lp tokens itself or you know
whatever other construct is the most capital efficient and such but you could imagine some
kind of a system whereby the pool system uh maintains uh hedges against the volatile assets in the pool at all times,
which means that you're no longer exposed to the appreciation of it and such.
And so you could kind of make every pool behave as a stable coin farm, basically.
And I think that's a pretty appealing idea if you can model it properly and such.
There's a question of, okay, would it cost too much fees?
Would it cost too much funding rates?
I think funding rates is a real question.
It would have a cost in terms of APR.
But trading fees, I think, is solvable.
I think protocols like MARS anyway are moving towards having variable fee rates
based on specific privileged addresses such that, for example, if you're running bots that help
or scale the markets but aren't just a trader, then those kind of maker type orders are taxed
or pay less fees. And I think that would probably qualify for that kind of stuff.
So it would be really interesting to look into, I think.
This is something that I've been excited about for a while,
and I think it synergizes really well with your idea of,
okay, let's have pools that have these other hooks
such that they're able to deploy their capital
in really efficient ways and maximize yield and
opportunities and manage risk for their depositors. Yeah, I think that's great and that makes a lot
of sense, especially for a lot of people that just want to farm rewards on a certain pools essentially then they farm almost like uh in a delta neutral uh
way uh but another like something that could be fun is like the markets always have these
type like the behavior is always like either it's very like sideways so it's very style stable uh
so it's very stable,
or then all of a sudden there's a move, right?
And similar to how PCL in a way
kind of tries to algorithmically
understand how that move happens,
I think what could also be cool is,
because IL essentially.
So it wouldn't be,
it wouldn't be like hedging all the time.
It would just be looking at like the volatility and stuff and basically
placing the hedge when it is the most strategic.
That's a really cool concept.
Yeah.
That's,
that's something that I think is,
yeah,
this is very cool because,
because then you essentially just try to counteract the IL when it really needs to, rather than all the time, right?
So I think that might be interesting to look at.
When?
When launch?
I'm hyped. I would put all of my money in that.
Andre, do you wanna talk a little bit about maybe
how the Astro Wars comes into effect with all of this
and like what Astro token holders can do
that they might serve to benefit from this integration?
Yeah, so basically, one of the side effects that we really want to see is just more volume,
right?
And by having more volume, at least in the actual wars concept, it just means there's more um emissions going out um and and there's more rewards
for for like the whole like flywheel effect uh i think like that's a good point to address uh because
astrowars were something like very anticipated and it was going well i I think, in theory,
up until like, because like the initial,
like very core version of it was protocols really fighting for liquidity, essentially.
The problem now that, and then basically
when Terra collapsed, what we saw was,
okay, now it's actually going multi-chain.
That actually means
multiple chains actually fighting for
it, right? Unfortunately
the whole thing then unfolded
with TFL, which kind of for
the Astrowars itself
I think it literally
cooled off, right?
Because at this
point, no one can really
compete with…
Everyone is dead.
Yeah, essentially.
And no one really competes for liquidity on Neutron.
And basically, Neutron is one of the biggest VXAstro voters.
Well, I guess there's the yield boost situation.
What do you think about that? Because today it's still the largest emission's not really great, obviously. The thing is having a couple more information,
I know like the argument from some people
that supposedly are behind it,
even though I kind of only indirectly know this by conversations.
They are like very big holders,
so essentially they will not dump it.
I, to be honest, haven't been tracking that because like a token on itself is like a product and like it's really too much for us to really follow through like everything, especially as the team is now.
But essentially the pro argument is these are very astro pro believers.
So they will just, even though they are extracting emissions through that system,
that basically they were able, it's kind of like a loophole sort of.
By doing that, they basically are extracting it it but they are keeping the astro anyway locked
so if that's true that argument kind of okay might make sense but at the same time it's it's
extracting like rewards from what could have gone to other pools and increased liquidity which
increases volume uh so at the same time like it's it's somewhat like a short-term play um now they're
also like astral voters so if if this doesn't really benefit astroport then also doesn't really
benefit them uh that much um we've thought about like like from the beginning we wanted to do a system where you actually would get, the voters would get, the benefit of the voters would be based on the performance of the pool.
So if you invest, like, if we think about emissions as an investment, if those emissions are investing into a pool that literally brings zero volume, that means it's only an expanse.
pool that literally brings zero volume, that means it's only an expanse.
And we wanted to do like a tracking performance system from the get go.
But unfortunately, Azure port is so old in the, in the, in terms of the
structure itself, the code, everything that, that would require like a major
change to the protocol.
And we ended up not going through it.
Um, so that's why like we never up not going through it.
So that's why we never really fixed it.
We could have some sort of system to fix it,
but to be honest, I think we are a little bit more excited about what we kind of are internally talking about,
AstroPort V2, that at this point, okay, we've built BX Astro.
It's up to the voters to decide whatever they want.
And if they wanted that, then it's up to them.
Even though long-term, I don't think it's the best thing to do.
But it is what it is.
We kind of wished for this.
Because previously, the other solution was we were doing governance proposals
and analyzing volumes and stuff like that.
And basically having to update the emissions ad hoc, sort of.
So this way, the protocol itself is kind of deployed in a way
that it was meant to be and designed for.
And now it's probably like time to think about something different, something new for AstroPort itself.
I mean, I think it's decentralized governance working the way a lot of people envision decentralized governance in which the token stakers have the say as to the future emissions of the token
themselves. And like in this case, with the integration with duality and more volume coming
to the Astro port pools themselves, that means that the swap fees generated from this integration
will reward the Astro token stakers. And so the people that are voting in the astro wars will naturally have a higher
staking apr because of the increased um the increased volume and revenue generation going
to those stakers um yeah yeah exactly yeah exactly it's that's basically like it's no longer the team
deciding where emissions go it's like the voter and that's it i like andre i i hate that you dropped astroport v2
literally on the dot when i have to uh to to leave for a hard stop but that is a huge chunk that i'd
love to uh to to chat about um maybe in a follow-up space or you guys can go and have that
conversation right now i am so bullish bullish on what is clicking there.
So, you know, would love to go over that at some point.
Thank you for the great, like, chat.
I think this has been super, super exciting and, like, interesting.
I'll drop now, but you guys feel free to continue the conversation.
Cheers, Newtz.
Cheers, Faye.
To you.
Yeah, well. cheers newts cheers yeah well Andre
Andre leaking alpha tonight this is great
you have learned from the chief leak
master Astroport
V2 talking about what to do
with unused liquidity outside the
trading execution range
these are great things these are extremely exciting
things for Astroport. And I didn't even
know that you guys are going in that direction. And I'm super excited to see what you guys have
in the pipeline to address those issues of poor capital efficiency that are often experienced
by a lot of different AMMs. What do you think, Pantara? Should we wrap it up? Because usually we go about one hour.
Yeah, I think we should leave some cliffhangers. I think that's a good place to put a pin in it.
Maybe next time we chat, we'll talk a little bit more about Astro V2. I missed that whole part of it because my phone rocked me. Actually, I'm a bit disappointed.
I'll come loaded with questions next time we talk about it.
Yeah, it's something we learned from Dragon Ball Z. Yeah, we love Gleefangers.
Cool, well, that's all I got.
Thank you so much, Andre, for coming and chatting about the duality and Ash Report integration and how that's going to bring a much better trading experience for traders and much more profitable LPA experience for people that are interested in deploying more passive liquidity on the Neutron network and how overall this will bring us into a more advanced liquidity layer on the
Neutron Network.
Thank you everyone in the audience for coming this week
and please come
next week to the Neutron Nation
and we'll see you next week.
Get integrated! Thank you.
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