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✴️ Neutron Round 2 - AtomZone #04
Recorded: April 4, 2023 Duration: 1:34:00Space Recording
Full Transcription
I have some kind of problem, but it looks fine so far, so all good.
Nice. Yeah, I know you must have crazy PTSD from the last time, but I think you have a lot of questions that last time you couldn't ask, and I had to lead the conversation. But I think today you can hopefully get all your questions answered as you wanted to get on the last time.
All right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I hope so, too.
I think so.
I think so, he's still connecting a spade here. I don't see him yet.
I think it should be coming soon.
Yeah, hopefully we can also get some alpha on the NTRN tokenomics. I guess that's the final piece where I've seen a little bit of discussions on Twitter. I think Lavender5 put out a thread. So that's going to be interesting what the plan is there.
Yeah.
He dropped out.
He dropped out.
Yeah, it was for like five minutes. We still have hope for spade to come. And also Jeanne should
be coming soon.
Yeah. There we go. Sorry, does it work now? Doesn't seem to be the case, but it says that you're a speaker.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe, sorry. Can you try to get in with the NTRN account? I think last time that was a
question. Maybe that's better.
Maybe, sorry, can you try to get in with the NTRN account? I think last time that worked.
Maybe that's better.
Yeah, he's messaging me that he's having some connectivity issue. So it is getting quite difficult to kind of have this Twitter space because it's just every time there is a new problem.
I mean, instead of changing the Twitter logo, maybe Elon should fix Twitter spaces.
Yeah. That should be definitely a priority.
Yeah.
Otherwise, we really should start to consider other kind of platforms because it's not possible every time the conversation can happen because of this issue.
That's true.
That's true. Yeah.
That's true. Yeah.
Okay. I'll try to find the Spade and Jeanne. So I will close the mic for a second to try to ping them.
Hey, folks.
Yes.
Yes.
I was hoping that you will be able to speak.
I'm sorry. It's an eventful night, let's say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't worry. Don't worry. We are happy to have you here.
How's everyone doing?
So how's it going?
Yeah, I'm good. Are you?
Doing good. Yeah.
I'll just say I'm not sleeping a whole bunch these days with all the things that we're wrapping up at the moment, but it's also really exciting to see all of the projects kind of like starting announcing that they'll be on Neutron, seeing a lot more information being released.
There has been obviously like a lot of conversation on the forum prop. I think that's really interesting to see a whole, you know, a whole bunch of people are now kind of like talking about the issues that we've been highlighting for a whole while, basically.
But it's a good thing then that we have answers for them. So, you know, all of it is kind of really exciting, basically, from my perspective. And I guess the last most exciting thing is, I believe the tokenomics have just been released on the blog. So, you know, that may be interesting to folks. If we have a tweet coming out, I'll pin it to this column.
Great timing. So, we can talk about it.
Yeah, I know, right?
We can talk about it.
That gives us a topic, I guess, yes. That's fortunate.
I mean, we definitely have a lot of topics because I was also following the discussion on the forum and there were a lot of interesting questions. I also think that you're doing an amazing job just once where all the values are concerned because you're actually very, very informed about replicated security and
probably one of the best advocates and probably one of the best advocates right now for replicated security because you know the dynamics and
every concern I was following also the latest podcast with the Cosmos Club. You really answered very well on the concerns. So, it's great to have a team very informed about what's coming on the
on the on the Atom Economic Zone because it will be very important to start very well this new era on Cosmos Hub. So...
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, it's kind of just to quickly add something here. It's kind of one of the things that we signed up for when we were, when we decided to be the first team that, you know, publicly announced that we would be going through with replicated security, right? This is a new technology.
This is a new technology. None, like no one has ever done this before. There are maybe some things that we can get inspiration from with kind of like auctions on polka dots so that that may be interesting for us and the future projects to get some inspiration from as we refine the systems.
But beyond this, like, there is no template. We are pioneering this, this new thing. So we've, you know, we, we need to be doing the work to refining what is a consumer chain proposal? What is the process of onboarding and in the future, perhaps like onboarding a consumer chain? If like, if, you know, things change between the Cosmos Hub and that chain or whatever, we need to be thinking about like, how do we do MEV within the context of replicated security? How do we do? How do we ensure that the economic model works and all that kind of stuff?
And all that kind of stuff. So yeah, as, as, as, as, as you said, like, it's been, you know, on top of building a chain, there's, there has been a lot of thoughts and efforts invested in that because, you know, we, we like this technology, we like what it does to the hub and what it does to our project as well. And, and yeah, just making sure that we understand it properly is, is, is a whole significant part of the job, basically.
Yeah, and, and, and I was just, I just found the neutron economics article. I, I have it right now. I think that we will also share it soon in the comments of the discussion. So can you talk a little bit about the initial distribution?
Yeah, if Twitter allows me to unmute myself, I will be very happy to. So yeah, the whole point is that neutron needs to be able to, like neutron as a community and as a project needs to have the infrastructure and the means to steer itself towards its best.
best form, right? So that includes both its ecosystem as well as its kind of like technical features and implementation. And so as a result of this, the chain needs to be able to be upgradable, basically, it needs to be able to change over time. And in the context of open permission, permissionless, sorry, systems, we don't have any sort of like KYC or judges or whatever to ensure that people making changes or proposing to
make changes to the protocol are legit, that they're well intentioned and that kind of stuff. And so we need another mechanism. And the, you know, the token is that mechanism, it's a mechanism by which we can create economic incentives, that tie the participants together around an ecosystem, help guide their interactions, so that together, they contribute to the best of their ability to a given kind of like public good that there are or that their livelihood and that they're,
that they're, that they all benefit from the success of, I guess, and that they also get like the ability to steer that project together through that token as well. And so the initial distribution intends to, one, empower the DAO, so the common entity that is formed by the code and the kind of like the aggregation of code and participants within
of them all of them all, basically. So that's why the DAO has most of the tokens that will ever be created, unless the DAO decides to create more, of course. And then there's an allocation to the teams who develop the initial code, and then an allocation to the initial contributors, the early backers, as well as a larger allocation to the community, most of which is in the form of the airdrop to the Cosmos Hub community.
So, yeah, so that, that's kind of like the, the rough outline.
Okay, in the meantime, also, Gian just joined. Hey, Gian.
Oh, yeah, hello.
Hey, Gian.
Sorry, I just caught the end of that, so I don't have much to say. Sorry.
Okay, don't worry, don't worry. Okay, so, Spade just, just mentioned the secret word that everyone was waiting for, which is the airdrop. So I think we should definitely dig a little bit about that, because, because many community members were waiting for that, and also validators were interested in this initial allocation, because somehow it also covers some of the initial costs, because, in the end, I think that Neutron Tokenomics,
aims to be deflationary, so it, it will definitely focus more on the value of the token. So this initial distribution could be also important to solve some of the concerns. Maybe you can talk about a little bit about this airdrop for delegators and validators.
Yeah, for sure. So the approach that the airdrop takes is that it airdrops to the stakeholders of the customer's hub through the stake. And there's, there's, there's a few reasons for this, that we, that we can go in detail, just to touch on the…
um the approach that the airdrop takes is that it airdrops to the stakeholders of the cosmos hub
through the stake and there's um there's there's a few reasons for this um that we that we can go
in detail just to touch on the specifically on the validator side of things airdropping to
so the idea of solving the cost of infrastructure through airdrop is simple in practice but in in
like simple in theory but actually pretty complex in practice because while the top of the set
remains somewhat stable um if you look at the bottom of the set the validators that are there
can be dropping out and in of the set pretty rapidly right and because this part of the set
is where the financial troubles are concentrated in the context of replicated security um the top
10 validators are probably not going to have any problem running an additional node but the bottom
10 probably um will have a much harder um time right and so you know making sure that we can
target these ones is very critical but it's also very difficult because it changes all the time and so
while technically it could be possible to um to target them um there's a lot of complexity around
the fact that for example we would have to commit to distributing to certain addresses um at least
two weeks up to three weeks before the actual distribution happens which means that there's a
lot of fences that by the time we distribute tokens some of these validators are not in the set anymore
and that there are new validators that are in the set and therefore have to pay for that additional
node but they don't actually get anything and so we um decided that because most validators um and
yes it is not mandatory and most validators don't use their um don't use the self stake because they
have literally zero incentive to do so and it's just more convenient to manage your delegations through
just a normal account that makes a delegation to your to your validator um it basically means that
you know if you have atom staked you'll be getting um the airdrop and like unless you're
um under some of the exclusions which are for example if you have less than one atom staked
um if you are um from the us or that kind of stuff unfortunately you won't be eligible to participate in
the airdrop um now the to come back to the to the validators what that means is that it's likely that
most validators will get um ntrn tokens and um we are working on something that we know will be
efficient at reducing cost for the validators which is the soft opt-out um jihan is definitely
one of the best person to um speak about it like from the technical point of view as well
we've discussed it um with him quite quite a bit and so we will be going forward with putting the
soft opt-out onto um the public rehearsals for the potential launch of neutron that will be organized
soon so that we can test the hell out of the feature make sure that it works and then if that's
the case that allows us to ensure that about 75 bottom validators don't have to run the node if
it's not sustainable for them to do so basically yeah do you want me to speak to how that works
yeah for sure actually i think that would be really useful and the trade-offs as well may be
interesting to discuss yeah it's a soft opt-out basically um it what it does is extremely simple
it's actually a very very small code modification too which is nice um what it does is when the
when the when the consumer chain so neutron um usually what it what it will do is it will send
when a validator's had downtime for the downtime period of uh you know it's around it'll be around
uh a little around three days it's gonna be the same as osmosis uses um
and um basically when um when that uh when that happens usually a packet sent to the hubs that they
will get jailed for downtime which is the same as happens they have downtime on the hub so what what
what the soft opt-out does is it just checks when that package is sent that packet is sent it just
checks uh what the validator's position is in the set it's extremely simple so it just looks is this
validator in the top 95 percent by power or is it in the bottom five percent by power if it's in the bottom
five percent um it just won't send the packet so what this means is that validators in the bottom five
five percent and and like like spig was saying it's it's actually a large number of that due to the
the way steak is distributed um the the large number of validators about 75 who are in the bottom five
percent and so um they don't have to run the consumer chain they they just don't have to run it and uh
they'll never be jailed for that and that's that's really it and so what this does uh to get technical
with it we're compromising on liveness and not on safety so the reason that is is because you still need
the same number of signatures the same amount of power to um approve blocks on the consumer chain
it's just that five percent of validators can optionally be persistently down and and not be
jailed for it so uh what that means is that the security is exactly the same it's still secured by
the exact same market cap as the hub itself uh but liveness is impacted so what that means is that
um let's say when you you can't have the chain run without more than 66 of the validators being
online and signing blocks and so the most um kind of the most prominent place that this comes to play
is during upgrades because that's where you know validators will install the new software and will
you know change cosmos chains will go down for a few minutes while that happens and so if you have
five percent of the validators that are always down anyway that means you're like five percent slower
to get back to the you know full set that you need um so that that'll be the impact um
um we've uh we've been testing this out in uh test nets it doesn't seem to affect much else um i i
don't think i think the effect on upgrades will also be very minor um so it's it's i think it's a
a good compromise to uh save money for the very small validators but still have the consumer chain
run so the exact same full security
and for the small validators one thing that is kind of nice and that is due to the fact that this is a very
small kind of like modification to the code of ics is that um it actually doesn't change the way that
the rewards are um distributed and so you know even if you opt out meaning that if you don't start
running a node and you're permanently down um you'll still get the equivalent um share of the revenue
generated by neutron as to your stake on on on the hub which means that that should provide you with the
means of properly evaluating whether or not um you would be able to run this sustainably in the future
so one of the advantage of of going for that technology if we can confirm um beyond the
internal test nets that we've had already um with the public rehearsal that this is safe to use
is that it will allow us to collect data without putting duress or any sort of centralizing force
onto the validator set um on you know just how much revenue is being distributed and that kind of stuff
yeah it's it's um it's so it does actually have a little bit of a benefit to the small validators
because they're getting rewards and and not not spending the money on the hardness so you also
want to mention that um the fact is though small validators will want if you're near the threshold
you're probably going to want to get ready to to run uh the consumer chains um because um you know if
you're number 70 uh you know 74 or something uh or number 76 i guess rather if you're number 76 you're
going to want to be prepared for when you go over to being number 75 um although it's not by number
exactly it's by percentage but you know what i mean so um so validators should probably be ready but
the thing is since the the downtime period is relatively long on on consumer chains so that's
what we're recommending um validators also who if they unexpectedly get a large delegation and cross
over the threshold they'll have enough time they shouldn't have time to get to get running in that case
yeah and i think that uh right now we can uh we are going extra careful especially with the bottom
validators but uh the reality is also that uh mostly right now we can make assumption about
what we expect to be uh the relation between consumer chain and uh cosmos sub especially for validators
because we don't know yet uh how all the economics will actually works and i think
it will be interesting to have this perspective now that we have uh both a representative from neutron and
the cosmos sub is basically the synergies that we can create between a consumer chain and a cosmos sub
because uh uh if we see uh probably the main difference between right now a proof of stake uh that is
sovereign and replicated securities that the proof of stake uh a sovereign chain has to really boost
inflation in the beginning to be profitable validators but even then most of validators are
not profitable especially because the current market condition so even in that situation there are
issues that are now represent a problem from a business perspective for our validators while the main
difference that i see on replicated security is basically that the consumer chain can actually
focus on produce value for the token which opens to a completely different dynamics because if a proof of
stake sovereignty basically has to focus on inflation actually uh the consumer chain can focus on the
value of the token and so bring a different form of revenue also for validators because if the token goes well
it will be also profitable for validators and for cosmos sub itself because it will bring value for atom directly
from the revenue generated so it's a different model and i this is basically my idea but it doesn't necessarily
can be true like uh we are i think that uh we have to realize that we are experimenting right now
so it would be interesting to see a different perspective about uh uh about the the idea of the relation
between cosmos sub and uh and the neutron maybe spade they can can start
hey just not to interrupt i just i i i do have to leave soon um so i wanted to see if there were any
more questions about the soft opt out or anything else on that i can answer while i'm here
yeah i think i think that uh d has a question so we will bring in let's see if we can connect
hey you guys hear me
yep awesome thanks um yeah i i i personally like internally have been battling with whether
the soft opt out and i've said this i think on twitter and i've said this in a couple of group
chats with some people in in the cosmos eco i i struggle with whether the soft out is soft opt out
is the right method um obviously i understand uh the lower validator set having concerns whether
it makes economical sense for them to do it um i guess my first question is like how long do we think
we're gonna keep this soft opt out uh on for
um first first i guess babe may have a more nuanced answer to this um but i personally i don't see any
downside especially at five percent um i don't see any downside to having it but obviously once we run it
we'll see um but i i don't necessarily uh think we're working on other stuff so you know like um
opt-in security uh where it's it's a little bit more of a thing where any validator can join um
they used to call that icsv2 that's you know in the works um but i do think that replicated security will
always be a thing that is the right match for for some chains and so i think that soft opt out uh
could be a good tool to enable that um but yeah i can't say for sure it's always going to be around
forever or you know um but yeah there was the other another option we looked at as well was um
the idea of having a mechanism to um give a certain fixed amount uh of the of this of the stride token
over a consumer chain token to each validator um like a minimum income um it's a little bit harder to
implement but yeah that's my view i guess it's not very extremely conclusive but uh
yeah that's fair i i think again i'm probably i'm probably a minority uh in in this i in this
thought but i feel like validating of course we want the validator set to be decentralized we got
to create new ways of doing that right like liquid safety is one form of decentralizing uh or
distributing the the stake in in the hub um obviously better wallet uis to incentivize
people that are coming in to delegate towards uh lower people you know lower validators in the set
i just feel like if you were validating for the hub today should you continue to get inflation in atom
if you're not supporting replicated security which has always been the thesis for for the hub regardless
of economics right it's like should should they continue to get neutron should they continue to get
at them if they're like what purpose are they serving for the hub if they're not taking part
in replicated security again i'm probably a minority in this well we are we're talking about the bottom
five percent um so it's it's not extremely significant either way and what i would say is i think it's good
to have them because um it's it's it's a way for people to get started it's a way for organizations
for validators to get started to get into the set um you know contribute to the liveness and security
of the hub itself uh which is kind of you know safeguarding security of the consumer chains in
some ways um and not be hit with uh you know not be hit with like the full brunt of all the stuff
you have to run right away um yeah so that's that's how i would see it i i think that's definitely
fair i the only reason why i'm kind of on the fence too is like there's people that are or there's
validators they're at you know 174 173 in the ranking right now and they're running at half
percent commission and i'd be like i'd argue that maybe the hub needs to actually have a minimum
commission which i've been on the fence about personally for a while but i feel like if you're
if you're a struggling validator and i'll put that in quotes and you can't run a consumer chain
maybe you should consider not running at a half percent commission right like i feel like there's a game
theoretics here where if if we subsidize or if we allow validators to soft opt out then we're not
keep making an incentive for them to continue buying atom which creates like this self-reflexive
profits prophecy where if enough lower validators are buying atom to maintain in the validator set
uh then that makes validator that makes atom price go up which kind of allows them to stay profitable
uh by running multiple consumer chains over time and by doing this you're kind of incentivizing them
to not continue to buy atom per se and then maybe just like live off inflation but i see both points
i'm just kind of playing devil's advocate a little bit yeah it's an interesting question yeah okay i guess
i'm gonna bounce guys thanks uh thanks for having me yeah thank you sean yeah bye bye
bye bye one last thing on on kind of like neutron side like like so the first thing is what's really
convenient about this specific version of the soft opt out is that it's entirely implemented on the
consumer chain side um whether that should be a thing as we go forward is probably something that we want
to discuss my personal opinion is that in general things that are pertaining to replicated security and
and its core mechanism of like you know selecting like who are the validators running consumer chains
how are the rewards distributed all of this um i believe falls under the category of the things that
the consumer like the cosmos hub um actually has sovereignty over so i think in the future that should
be stuff that is implemented on the cosmos hub side because it really deals with the cosmos hubs
um validator set in the internal kind of like dynamics of it now in given the limited kind of like
time frames that we have now and the fact that the hub has already gone through um you know updates very
recently in order to simplify these things we are implementing it and we're implementing it in a way that
works and that only requires neutron's code itself to be modified um but what we will be doing is that we
will be making this feature um governed by uh the neutron dow meaning that if for example one of the
scenarios would be if the hub um has a similar feature in the in the future or something that
replaces soft up tout then the feature can be turned off on the neutron side or for example if neutron
starts generating um tremendous amounts of revenue for even the bottom of the validator set then it's not
required anymore and so we could gradually through governance proposals um to taper off how much of
the voting power is basically cons like has this option of opting out um i do agree that it is probably
not the best um feature to have but i think it it's a very direct answer to some of kind of like the
the the main concerns around replicated security and if that allows us to have a more united front as
we approach this kind of like gift um in the the hub's narrative and and technological kind of like
role in the ecosystem i think that that is um probably worth taking
yeah i mean as as we said before it's uh it's still an experimental phase and they also think that
that we don't have to look at neutron like uh all consumer chain will do what neutron is doing because
the reality is that any consumer chain will have a different approach and should have a different
approach because uh they will have a different uh kind of services and uh and even products because if
we if we see how how neutron is branding currently uh i think it's branding like ab execution layer which
means that it will provide all the needs for uh developers to build cross-chain application
uh and uh i was reading uh on the forum that uh also neutron will allow to use interchange account
interchange query so we are talking of of basically allowing developers to build the application that
will not only can be compatible with the hub but with all the interchange so i think that the value
accrual here is uh is massive not only because uh we are talking about uh extending the services to the
whole inter chain but i think that uh the team is solid and uh we already seeing some ongoing uh
implementation like can you speak uh uh maybe a little bit about the ongoing uh uh implementation
that we started to see on uh on neutron announcement like the the cosmos station integration the card
integration the astroport integration because i think it's it's very interesting because it actually shows
that we are bringing a consumer chain that will have already some level of adoption from the start
which is very important even for uh all the economics that we will build around
yeah for sure i mean it's you know neutron is a permissionless platform meaning that people don't
actually have to go through me or anyone else to actually launch from neutron once it's available but
um we have received like a lot of um we have had a lot of conversation and have received a lot of
interest from a lot of builders around the space a lot of them have applications that they already
deployed on other chains and they're looking at neutron for where to launch their token or where to launch
their uh governance or to expand to a new chain and perhaps use neutron as the platform on which they
deploy kind of like their the their cross chain hub which will allow them to kind of connect multiple
deployments that they may uh already have or be looking to have soon um so that they can drive
additional kind of like value and benefits from having not only multiple deployments on multiple
chains but also having them connected and communicating together so that for example they have one governance
system that you know controls all of the deployments or that they have fees going from all of the
deployments and and kind of like being managed together using some of the the infrastructure
for managing treasuries and daos that will exist on neutron um so i think there's a lot of cool stuff
that's going to be built um in in the next few months um i obviously don't control that it depends on
a whole ton of teams that will or will not decide to to launch on neutron but i'm very i'm personally
very optimistic about this i think um that like in you know very shortly newton will have a fairly
well-rounded uh defy ecosystem um which we haven't really seen too much of in cosmos for quite a while
and especially since the fall of terra i think it's going to be great to have a lot more options that
can compose together more like directly with you know not just one team building all of them like we've
we've seen we've seen uh sometimes which is very impressive but also limits the the speed at which
you can iterate on these and like and improve them over time so you know all of these things together
i think what we're going to see is that neutron is likely to play an interesting role in the ecosystem
where it's both kind of um a sort of matrix which brings a lot of the things that already exist outside
of neutron and in the cosmos ecosystem together that allows people to access these services with
perhaps less friction because they don't need to think about crushing um transactions anymore they
don't need to be bridging back and forth anymore they can just access them by kind of like the same
interfaces and um and abstract the complexity of dealing with you know 50 plus chains um and two i think
the ecosystem on neutron itself is likely to be very interesting to um to to use and and interact
with um i'm yeah i'm feeling really good about it because i feel like it's going to it's going to be
time soon again to go a little bit degen despite the fact that it's arguably still bear market and start
you know playing around with like liquidity positions like borrowing and whatever um to to try and and find
good strategies i think you know what i'm kind of like excited about is seeing all of the smart
peoples that hang out around cosmos twitter starting to like look into these these applications and
start making like strategies and stuff um so you know we'll we'll see how it turns out but i'm
personally um pretty enthusiastic about what's gonna be happening in the next few months but you know time
will tail and it all depends on um governance and mostly the the cosmos sub governance basically
also i see many validators today in the goal so if anyone want to jump in and ask questions i think
that's the perfect time because it's important also addressing any validator concern right now
and beside that i was reading actually right now the the token economics and i'm actually interested to
know a little bit more about the dow on neutron and uh what kind of dynamics will create for a token
holder if a token holder of neutron will be able to participate directly in the dow so how to look
how basically it will work the governance dynamics on neutron yeah so neutrons governance is a bit
different from a lot of other cosmos chains because instead of using the gov module
um it is actually implemented as a set of small contracts and that allows us to um have a lot of
modularity and flexibility um in in how the um dow is is structured on the technical level um these
contracts are actually based off of dow dow shout out to them for the awesome work that they've done
creating this suite of small contract um we created a few modules that we added to it to serve the the
neutron dow specifically as best as possible and so what that means is that you have a few differences
on um how people may be able to get voting power in the first place as well as how decisions can be
made so to dive a bit deeper first is like okay how do you actually get voting power to participate in
making decisions for the network um for this you will need um to deposit something into what we call a
voting vault a voting vault a voting vault is a um smart contract that will look at whatever you
deposited um and and basically be able to calculate voting power based on based on it the initial voting
vaults that we're expecting to be live at launch are you know a very basic enterain vault which you can
deposit enter and inside of it you don't have any bonding um like period or or anything because it's
not actually required to be safe um and you can you know that gives you voting power one point per
ntrn and that allows you to participate in governance another vault that is very very very likely to be
live at launch is um lp token vault so for example let's say you provided ntrn and atom to a liquidity
pool you now have a lp token which gives you some rewards some trading fees but you can now take this
token and deposit it into a voting vault and the voting vault itself will calculate how much of like
how much ntrn your lp token represents and it will give you just like the other vault it will give you
one point of voting power per ntrn represented by this lp token basically and this architecture
is very flexible so that in the future the dow may decide to add or remove a whole variety of
vaults um what seems very likely to me is that the dow will continue to list vaults that are somehow
related to the ntrn token so for example if you take ntrn token you provide them as a deposit to a
a money market application or if you have some kind of an nft that can be redeemed for ntrn or that was
minted using ntrn all these sorts of things could technically have their own specific voting vault and
therefore be able to participate in the governance of neutron but the dow may also decide to go another
way and if the neutron dow thinks that it's best to for example um let's say there was this og nft
project um that was launched and people are like really fun of it let's say it's the bad kids of
neutron people are fun of it um they um they really want it to be you know part of of the zone and how it
works technically you can make a voting vault that allows you to deposit your neutron bat kit whatever
to that vault and get some degree of voting power based on it now of course you would have to find
a calculation for how these things are valued and maybe it's the price or maybe it's another mechanism
so that the whole system remains secure um but but you can see that there's a lot of flexibility and
the other side of this coin is that it allows you to participate in governance and in defy at the
same time that's the problem that was already identified in cosmos right where if you're staking
you can't be using these tokens anywhere else osmosis is a very interesting solution to this problem
with superfluid staking well neutron basically allows you to do superfluid staking that's the voting
vaults for lp tokens but it allows you to do xx staking for any sort of other kind of like activity
right so money markets um or other sorts of of deposits um can be can get voting power so that's
the first thing um you can participate in governance without losing your rights your ability to participate
in the the ecosystem that exists on the platform itself the second thing is the way that the neutron
dao itself functions is um a bit more flexible as well because it relies on small contracts and so
we can um you know we can add functionality to that dao through governance very easily um and the the
whole infrastructure was designed to be able to to be very modular so that applies to the decision
making process so for example at launch the small contracts that are in the genesis file allowed the
dow to have single option votes like we are accustomed to so like yes no abstain um or to
have multiple choice voting so for example we could have a vote about um you know is like should don
kryptonium's face be um the only legal profile picture to have on twitter and then you could have
yes no or i think we should have whoever else's face instead and then people could vote for any of
these outcomes and the one that would get actually executed is the one that has the most vote so you
know single choice voting multiple choice voting in the future other types of voting systems could be
um could be implemented like for example um you could have something where it's like quadratic voting
which favors um popularity over uh wealth essentially um and you know any sort of curve any sort of voting
system gauges and and whatever can be implemented as well it just depends on um you know having somebody in
the community that will decide we actually need this for neutrons governance um ecosystem and
infrastructure i'll build it and i'll propose it to the dow and then the dow votes to have it and then
that's it um so that that's the first layer of flexibility the second layer of flexibility is
how how decisions can be um shared and allocated to you know the whole governance um ecosystem or to
specific committees basically so in cosmos we mostly have uh token voting meaning that when we want to
change the incentives on on a poll or when we want to um upgrade the network everybody has to vote and
sometimes that can be a problem in terms of how many proposals on in terms of i as a like as just someone
in the community may not have insight or a very deep opinion on absolutely every matter and so technical
matter maybe i just don't want to vote on them um and it can like be exhausting basically to have to
to deal with this all the time so to avoid um having to vote on everything and anything at all times
we like the the the neutron that has a mechanism called well sub daos which you know was also
implemented by dow dow but will be available from day one on neutron which allows governance to create
subcommittees that are kind of like multi-sig for example but the main difference is that they remain
accountable to the main dow so the main dow is the admin of the contracts of that multi-sig and so
if the dow wants to revoke it or take the funds or fire someone from the committee it has the ultimate
power over it right um the second thing is that having these committees allow neutron's governance
infrastructure to be much more efficient because instead of having to you know require the
participation of everybody have to wait two weeks for every decision to to work we could for example
have a dow dedicated to making grants or to managing an incentive program or similar things and when they
make a proposal you know they have their own budget which is granted by the main dow they can manage that
budget independently they probably will be reporting to the dow and and a lot of things that can be
constructed around but when they make a decision what they can do is they can have their own
proposal type they make the decision they vote for it they approve it before it actually gets executed
by the code it becomes time locked meaning that the code is basically frozen for three days during these
three days anyone who is a voter in the main dow anyone who has voting power on neutron can check that
proposal and if they think that that's a really really bad idea they can try and veto it and as soon as we
reach one or two percent of the voting power on the main dow then that proposal from the committee from the
sub dow gets cancelled automatically so what that setup does is that it allows us to as a community decide to
trust some individuals which we think are very qualified for a specific role uh to perform their um their their
operations um with authority autonomously but if they breach our trust if they try to go against
the dow or if they're incompetent then the dow has the power to take over the power and basically force any
decision to be made through the main governance track where everybody votes basically um so that that's another
um layer of flexibility and in in kind of the initial iterations we expect that this will most likely be
kind of like committees that look like multi-sig where you have you know up to 10 people uh on that
committee doing something specific but actually each of these sub-dows can have their own voting systems
they can have their own membership systems meaning that you could have a sub-dow where the members are
are whoever gets whatever percent of the voting power delegated to them so you can have a liquid
democratic kind of like system if we want so there's a lot of flexibility within within the the sub-dows
themselves as well and then the last layer of flexibility in the governance system is how
NTRN and voting power is allocated in the future so most of the um most of the supply is going to be in the
um treasury of the dow meaning you know the community pool essentially um the dow will have voting like
will have the power to decide how this gets allocated in the future and it can do so by one-off spends
meaning we make a proposal to send x amount of x token to whatever address or it can do so through
something that we call the distribution schedule the distribution schedule is a bit of an experiment but
i think it's kind of interesting because it's a form of ongoing payment um so for example let's say
there's a piece of infrastructure that is really important to neutralize an ecosystem and the dow
decides that it wants to reward it right to support it over time and to make sure that this piece of
infrastructure can be maintained well the dow may decide to register a share in the distribution schedule
for an address that's controlled by the entity that maintained that that that piece of software for
for example let's say you know cosmosm is really important to neutron um let's fund confio to
develop cosmosm for a long period of time by giving them 10 of all the tokens that are received over time
by the distribution schedule the distribution schedule will receive tokens from the reserve we
can talk about this in a second it will receive tokens over time and make them available according to
you know like regularly to that specific address that was registered as the address for conclio basically
and so that allows you potentially to do stuff like public good funding pretty efficiently another
use for that distribution schedule is imagine we have um an incentives program running on neutron right
well we may not want that program to be handled by people but instead to be handled by code and so what
we can do is we can create a simple small contract that receives tokens and at every regular interval
let's say every week it takes these tokens it breaks them according to the weights that the dow
decided let's say um five percent goes to decks one number one five percent goes to that pool on deck
number two whatever and it you know at every regular interval it takes the tokens that it received
distributes them according to the parameters set by the dow and directly to the pools right so now we
have automated kind of distributions of tokens as well um and that's something that's that becomes even
more convenient using some of the well like one of the feature of neutron which is the neutron cron
right when you build an app chain you can use begin and end blockers to execute things at regular
interval through the beginning or the end of the blocks of the blockchain for a small contract that was
for a long time a big problem because you can't really do that you can't rely on end blockers
so usually you rely on um either bots that you run yourself or that are run by like a decentralized
bot system um or kind of like other sort of like more mystical implementations we've implemented a
system that allows governance to say hey this contract should have access to the end blockers every x block
basically and so the distribution schedule for example in this example can you know every five blocks
distribute whatever it receives for example um and we don't need any bots to run like the blockchain
actually makes this work on on its own um yeah i mean so and obviously it can also be used to
distribute budgets to the sub to the various sub daos that have been created right um so we can say okay
i want the grants dow to have 10 of the tokens that are being released and i want the um incentives
dow to get five percent whatever you can set the weights um and then the last element of this is
well most of the tokens will be liquid in the dow's treasury from the get-go some of them will be
vesting long term in what we call the reserve the reserve is a smart contract that holds ntrn tokens
they cannot be transferred not even the governance has power over it but they vest
conditionally based on the activity of the network meaning that the more activity there is on neutron
the faster these token uh released it's a bit of an experiment but what we think will happen is that
if we use the distribution schedule properly it will allow the ecosystem of um like the governance
system on neutron to essentially adjust how much it spends or invests over time based on how on the
market circumstances basically so you know during the bear uh during the bear market we probably
don't want to have very high incentives and so because the activity on the platform is low it
doesn't release a lot of tokens so not a lot of tokens are being distributed as incentives during the
bull market that that's when we want to be um you know using our added economic strength to be
incentivizing liquidity incentivizing whatever providing grants funding uh public goods and that kind of
stuff and so up it kicks up and then this distribution happens so yeah we'll see how these plays play out we
try to make a system that would be as flexible as possible so that it could adapt to whatever the
community will make of neutron in the future and of the platform in the future but also provided kind of
like new tools to explore both how we make decisions um as kind of like participants of a decentralized network
how this network can handle and automate a lot of these processes itself and how voting power and and
and tokens are allocated um to these various participants uh essentially
yeah i think that your last point is very important because um you actually mentioned how it is
important to handle the bear bull market cycle because if we see right now the cosmos landscape there is a
lot of uh re-tokenomics going on many projects are revisiting the tokenomics because uh mostly of them
was uh was designed during a bull market while it's not actually completely sustainable in a bear market so
i think it's very interesting that uh actually you guys are already thinking uh to uh this kind of
transition to adapt to market cycle and i actually think this is one of the advantages that is bringing
the replicated security because uh you're basically implementing all these dynamics which is quite
a lot for a token i mean i think this is kind of uh it's supposed to the theory that uh a consumer
chain token is a farming token i think it's quite the opposite actually because uh it can be a farming token
if it has so many applications and utility that can be built upon i think cryptos it also has a question about this
yeah i wanted to jump in here because i also see matt crypto just joined and he left a comment under
the tokenomics paper basically asking um why a token at all right like why not just use atom for everything
so maybe spade you can um explain a little bit um yeah yeah that was a very like that was a very
significant decision um and we didn't take it lightly to be honest we we actually spent um i mean like
we're talking here about like months and months ago like we're talking about last year but we spend a lot
of time thinking about this basically the idea is if you like having only atom was very appealing because
one it reduces the amount of work on the initial implementation of the chain it provides pretty good
incentives alignment to between the consumer chain and the hub and the hope is that because atom is
you know not a new asset it is pretty well distributed and it has a community and everything
then that community would then seize the project and and be able to guide it to some something pretty
cool and something very aligned to to the hub all of these points are valid we ended up deciding
against it for a few reasons the first one is managing the hub and managing the the consumer chain
especially neutron is not exactly the same thing um and it doesn't require kind of like the same
mindset per se and so we thought that it would probably be best for a community of people who are
very dedicated to neutron to emerge and have the power to actually make changes to kind of like fulfill
a vision that is that is its its own vision that is really oriented to what the platform is capable of
and what is its appeal inside the kind of like larger web 3 industry and so the idea is that
the replicated security basically creates a frame of alignment whereby if there's no alignment the chain is
just going to be cut down essentially so we know that it can't really get too hard of hands otherwise
it will just like you know neutron will just self-destruct itself basically and so that keeps
that is likely to keep neutron's governance aligned with the hub in in any case and so based on this
we thought the probably the best way to ensure that neutron is as successful as possible is to make
sure that there are people who feel committed to the project are um you know have authority over the
project because they are participants in its governance they have the power to uh participate
in the in the decisions they are rewarded for doing so uh all of these kind of things like they have
skin in the game in terms of of time of commitment um all of this right that's the first point the
second point is that it also it's also like kind of like difficult to you know like we're having all
these conversations about like the economics of ics and stuff like this and it didn't seem to us
like going to the hub and saying hey can you allocate millions of atom to bootstrap this ecosystem
was going to be something that the community would necessarily be very happy about because
it seemed like a very big risk that it was taking on behalf of a project that wasn't the hub itself
right and so at the time having another token that can be used as as a way to say hey look if you
come and join this ecosystem and help make it awesome um you'll get a say in this ecosystem
basically um so that that was um another one now if you actually look into like closely into how we've
designed neutron what you realize is that you know adam like if you do not want to contribute to the
decision making of neutron itself if you only want to use neutron as a platform that hosts services that
you want to use well you're able to use neutron without ever touching the ntrn token um and that
is fine you can come in with your atom you can use applications there pay you transaction fees in atom
you can do whatever you would want to do on that chain without having to touch the token so if you
only want to use atom and be aligned with atom you can do so that's not a problem um if you want to
go further and be part of that kind of like extension of the hub that is also its own thing well you can
understand um so yeah that's kind of the approach that we've taken yeah i think this is important
for user adoption because uh it will it will make uh the whole onboarding more easily if they can use atom
and i think this is uh something that uh can be extended to the whole atom economic zone because i mean if
if we create this atom economic zone atom should be applied and be possible to use in any of the
applications that will be will be built around this uh this zone and uh i think that will be also
interesting to see uh yeah do you have uh some talk about it a quick comment about this i completely
agree i think it's very likely to happen i think the one thing that's exciting about it is that it may
allow atom to bring back the atom liquidity towards the atom economic zone which i think is going to be
a major strategic plus for atom as a project and as a token as well uh yeah that that's just side
comment sorry for interrupting yeah don't worry you said thread my point so uh it's more than welcome
no i was saying uh i was interesting to know what is the focus on neutron like uh in the in the beginning
like it will be a focus on product so in the adoption and onboarding of application it will be a
focus on user so to make easy for user to navigate neutron like uh like right now even already using
atom it will be already a simplification but it will be also important to have all this uh interface that
will make the the whole process to you to perform every application that will be on neutron easy
or it will be a focus on generating real revenue because the main relation with the cosmos sub right
now it's real revenue so it's the revenue generated on neutron
i don't think focusing on quote-unquote real revenue from the get-go is necessarily the right approach i think
you know while we invested a lot of work into making neutron the best platform possible to launch
applications like crossnet applications and small contracts in cosmos it's arguably like it's it's going
to be a new blockchain right and so there may not be all of the tooling all of the interfaces all of the
infrastructure that is required for it to really really shine and be um you know by by far the best place
that you could be building on and so i think what makes the most sense is to take this as as it is
it's a piece of infrastructure the value of that thing existing is whether or not it makes our lives
better basically and so what i would focus on for at least the initial period is to make sure that
that piece of infrastructure actually suit um suits the the the needs of the ecosystem of the users of
the builders of the cosmos hub and everything like right there's a ton of things that there's a ton of
primitives that can be built to solve problems that we're seeing currently right like the fact that it's
really complicated for a lot of the kind of like agreements between dows and or protocols um to
exist because of the lack of infrastructure um to enable this to happen trustlessly that's something
that we can solve by building simple small contracts on top of neutron um there's a ton of you know
limitations to the crushing experience in in in cosmos if we can come together and improve this um that's
definitely going to be a major advancement for the ecosystem as a whole so all these things are where
i would personally focus um but as a result of this it's also likely that you know the better the
infrastructure is the more um the more builders decide that hey that's where i want to be building
the more activity there will be and therefore the more connect transactions the more opportunities for
mev and stuff like this will happen as well so in the end it also ends up achieving that goal as well
as a kind of like um yeah no no i mean it's uh it's definitely interesting and you actually are
following the branding of neutron which is up execution layer so actually the synergies with the
hub will be very important especially in uh in coordinating also the community to uh to kind of have this
double relation because uh it's also interesting uh uh all the this whole lot of economic zone that
will soon start to get traction it's also interesting to see it from a community perspective
so like uh how the cosmonaut will feel a consumer chain and uh how they will interact with the consumer
chain because it's all a new dynamics and i think that actually replicated security specifically
it's actually creating a new economic model that will require experimentation and i think neutron it's uh
maybe already more of an experiment because uh i think that following your discussion you guys have
actually the idea very clear of what will be the platform and what are the plans so i think that's
actually a great start for a first consumer chain and uh the the idea and the economic models with the
hub is definitely interesting uh i saw that there was some concern over validators for the inflation
but i also think that inflation is something more related to uh the model of a sovereign proof of stake
chains that uh on replicated security because uh if uh consumer chain will only focus on generating
inflation actually replicate the security will not have that uh differentiation from the old model to this
model of a shared uh or shared security of course inflation will be important in the case of a specific
consumer chain that will not uh aiming for a product that has uh all this application like can have cosmos
cosmos because cosmos allow you allow will allow neutron to have many applications so it could generate
a good amount of fees so in the end any any consumer chain uh will have to choose their own path
will have to choose their own economic model and it's interesting to see how they will develop their
synergies with hub which is probably the most unique uh unique innovation uh in this model
so is uh is anyone that has uh any last question or to want to join the conversation feel free to do it
now cryptosito or d do you have anything to add um i mean i wanted to because i think that came a little bit
short i mean everybody can uh read the article about the initial distribution of ntrn tokens um snapshots i think
it's november 19 i think november yeah 19 and for the atom community um so there's all the details in there
but just in general space like if you can you know comment a little bit on the initial distribution
um it mentions in the document 54 percent neutron dow um 23 percent uh founders 11 percent early backers
and then 12 percent community of which seven percent of the total supply is airdropped to the atom
community which initially makes 58 58.3 percent of the initial supply circulating supply for ntrn so can you
comment a little bit on that and like maybe some of the um factors that went into defining and on like
also like the airdrop and distribution and these kind of things
yeah so um one of the first thing is that we we looked at what happened in the ecosystem to kind of like
get a get a get a get a sense of what like how how these things work and what we've done is we've
made sure that because this is going to be like like our intention is is to make sure that the
community can can own this thing and guide it in the future right so two things went into this process
the first thing is we one allocated less tokens to the founders than the um kind of like majority or average
um is is present like is in general because of the fact that this is a platform not just like an
application or a business this is a platform a piece of infrastructure um so that's the first thing
the second thing is we made sure that people who aren't um founders so like all of the other
allocations had at least from the get-go as many uh tokens to ensure that um you know the there is a
counter balance in in in how people are able to um take over the doubt we've also removed our ability
to participate in governance meaning that we won't be able to for example like bribe anybody or make
like pass the governance like whatever single-handedly we don't have power in governance at all actually
or if we do it's because we went um ahead and we bought it from somebody else basically um so that's
the first thing and then the second thing is we wanted to make sure that the community itself had
more power than anything that could be considered kind of like more like insider types of profiles
and so we made sure that the allocation for the community is higher and especially within the
allocation that the hub had the lion's share essentially and so what that means is that at
the get-go 60 of all the voting power in existence that's available to make decisions is going to
already be controlled by the community and especially by the hub which means then that
because the control is in the hand of the community and the hub any future allocation of voting power
can only be made with the consent of the community and the hub so what that what that does is that it
ensures that today and in the future the distribution of ntrn and the voting power attached to it
um will be conformed to the wishes and to the intentions of of the community and the hub essentially
so we won't have an arbitrom-like scenario
well that that was uh yeah i mean i'm not going to come out on it but it was interesting to see this
whole thing that was nuts that was nuts um but you know um like neutron doesn't come pre-packaged
with any sort of grants already being paid out right so anything that um we have been in chat with
a ton of projects that came to us and and and said like look what you're building is interesting it's
all some of the problems that we've had uh in building applications um can we get grants right
well no because we don't control it like that's a decision for our governance what we can do is we can
tell you all about how um the the system works how the infrastructure works how the governance will work
work so that you can have a good idea of how you should structure your proposal to the dow when
it's when it's live when it exists when it's a thing and it can actually review um whatever proposal
you want to make to it um so that's another part of of the process that we've taken um we haven't
baked any sort of application specific logic into the code itself um we haven't extended any grants on
behalf of the dow because we're not the dow and the dow should have that power and so you know once the
once the chain is is there um it will own itself basically
t i think you animated yourself do you have any comment uh no i mean i'm i'm really the only thing
i was gonna say i'm really excited to see neutron launch uh i think the the combined uh reserve
allocation to the dow plus the distribution module can be really interesting um i mean we've talked about
inflation ad nauseum at this point especially in the cosmos ego right like using the the governance
token to incentivize liquidity incentivize staking it creates essentially like a forever downward
pressure uh downward pressure selling pressure on on the asset we've seen that with every single
cosmos project at this point um and i think this really can create like a flywheel of like protocol
protocol owned liquidity where the dow can actually direct uh neutron tokens and then other tokens that
that the dow itself um receives in in other forms of assets like adam or usdc depending on what how
transaction fees are paid to the train so over time it creates like this deflationary neutron while the
reserve and the dow is collecting other ibc assets uh and at the same time it can actually use those
assets as well as neutron tokens to incentivize liquidity for the defy different defy protocols
that launch on neutron so this is this is a really interesting model i'm excited to see how it launches
and and how it works i guess over the next couple years yeah i think another thing that's kind of like
interesting and like it's you know just an idea that the dow may or may not decide to play around
with in the future but i think what could potentially make sense is to um allow users to pay fee in any
other uh denomination than ntrn and then give them a rebate um in ntrn right so you you pay in some
denomination and then you get ntrn corresponding to the value um of that transaction fee and what that
does is that it actually distributes voting power to the users of the chain right so i'm using this
daily and now i get the tokens through it i'm still paying and maybe i'm like maybe you you know the
rebate is only 50 so that you like or whatever like the economic model can be adjusted to to make it
work and generate revenue or whatever is the priority but what what i mean is what's really
interesting is that that kind of flexibility allows you to to develop systems that for example
can be tailored to really ensure that the users are well represented within the system and its
decision-making abilities and there's a whole bunch of like there's a very wide space of
experimentations and and and parametrization of neutron that that we can explore um over the next couple of
years so go ahead d yeah i'm just gonna say this is i i'm not mad i was gonna say this is exciting
stuff i'm really excited to see neutron launch and um i think this you know as much as the neutron needs
the hub right now just for security purposes i think the hub needs neutron um this is the really the
the the new hopefully like the next generation or the next phase of the hub in the atom economic zone
um and i i really hope the community supports neutron um and hopefully you know if it succeeds i think
overall the atom tokens get to succeed regardless of the short-term replicated security economics uh for
for validators so just this is awesome yeah i think well said um d and um final question from my side and then
maybe we can get some people on also to ask questions um spade so now that the tokenomics is out um
what's the game plan in terms of going on chain so the last remaining bit is we want to make sure
that the soft opt-out as a feature is safe to use battle tested well encoded controllable controllable by
governance um before we add this to the mix right because that's that's not part of the kind of like
initial ics repose so before we put anything in production we tend to try and value security a
lot and be very careful about what what we're doing there so um we upgraded barion testnet today we
will be conducting an internal rehearsal of launching neutron and in in a in a replicated secured um kind
of like environment internally uh tomorrow and then next week there is a public rehearsal that's
organized by hypha which is the team in charge of the replicated security testnets so what we'll be
doing there is that is basically fulfilling two objectives the first one is to ensure that the
soft opt-out works and that we can bake it into the proposal that will be submitted on chain and to
ensure that every validator that wants to participate to this whole um kind of like story this whole new
thing for the hub has the knowledge and confidence that they can do so properly because they've done
it before by enabling all the participants to essentially launch the code that will be proposed
to the hub into a testnet environment first before we go to the main course and the main net launch basically
and so that's going to happen on the 11th assuming all goes well and i don't see why it wouldn't but
assuming all goes well uh the proposal will be on train the next day and then that's the start of
the voting period and then um the launch would then happen between the 25 or 28 most probably
because afterwards is a weekend so i don't expect a lot of validators to be working on the weekend at
least i don't wish for a lot of people to be working on the on the weekends um so worst case scenario
if it doesn't launch within the first three days which i think is unlikely would be that it launches
um before the third of of of may basically so that's if um yeah so yeah it's going to be a busy
month for for a ton of people including um you know me our team and probably most importantly the
validators themselves rehearsing and then actually launching it if the cosmos hub community votes for it
yeah hopefully we will have a chill voting period
especially because uh i think it's important if a validator has any concern please say it now the
forum is open uh because uh on change voting period uh it's uh always brings something some discussion
but uh actually it's important to bring discussion before the launch about the period because if we
can do some modification can still happen if we discover some specific concern so bring concern before
and not and not during your champion period and uh i also want to add that uh uh maybe in this
discussion uh uh can uh replicate security can be seen like uh a better model of uh sovereign uh up
chains but uh this is not actually correct i mean they believe the security complement uh the up chain
thesis it's not uh meant to substitute the up the up chain thesis because uh uh it just had another
layer of option for launching a blockchain in the cosmos ecosystem and this is also add variety and
more opportunity for developers to enter cosmos so option is very important and that's basically all the
cosmos cities replicated security will add this new layer of opportunity and i think this is very important
because uh i think that uh how the replicated security and cosmos sub is moving is to have this
specific consumer chain that will bring value to the whole inter chain so it's not something that uh
even if we call it atom economic zone will benefit only atom i think that it's very important that atom as
as i always said the central position inside the ecosystem will keep doing uh growing the entire
inter chain ecosystem and uh it will be very important also for uh the inter chain as a whole and i
think we are in the right direction because a neutron can bring a lot of value in uh in the for the cosmos sub
and the ecosystem wide we have some community member also that is bringing some questions so i will put them
up if they have a specific question for spade or any of the guests
in the meantime i might i might drop out because i have to go but um yeah thanks wait for all the
insights and yeah hopefully we get some some good questions from the community thanks a lot cito
okay uh do you have any questions hi can you hear me yeah very well fantastic so yeah it's just a
question as a cosmonaut uh about the snapshot so i read the tokenomics um i think tokenomics is brilliant
uh and the fact that people who voted on the proposal and it doesn't matter whether they voted no
uh still 30 million tokens will be dropped to them and then uh 40 million to uh atoms takers and also
good to see that even if you have one atom staked uh you you still will get a neutron uh airdrop so all
fantastic uh as a cosmonaut as a person who supports cosmos ecosystem a question is uh why just
a single snapshot um one thing which i which i think uh is important is also to uh carry the new uh
blood that we bring in to the cosmos ecosystem so again you have done it it's fine question is as
as a cosmonaut and then question is is to the wider uh cosmos team and neutron uh what what do you guys
think about average snapshots so let's say spread over a period of uh four to five months that includes
news takers without gaming the system so so you you still do it but don't announce so so just just
few thoughts on that from the neutron team and then from cosmos hub uh people thank you
yeah that's that's a really good question i think there's basically two reasons why that's not
um what we went for the first one is is just very hard to plan for this timeline perfectly and you need
to do quite a bit bit of work to actually get the snapshots parse the data turn this into the actual
calculations and and everything so that process is not instantaneous and especially when you have
kind of like dependencies on other teams like for example we um we thought that it would be just to
exclude liquid stakers who had supported liquid staking from the get-go because they are adam stakers
they just do it through a defy protocol and so we also had to work with other teams and we can't just
like change our instructions every five days and we can't force them to do it instantly either so you
know the the plans can be ready early on but then the rest of the process takes more time or moves around
in terms of timeline and we end up with a snapshot that is a bit farther away than it was initially
when we made the plan and started working on it so that that's the first element just like the
you know how things actually end up working and then the second element is um especially when you're
dealing with airdrop the like more is less the least complexity you can have the better because
every bit of complexity that you're introducing to your calculation is an opportunity for a mistake
a typo a fat finger occurrence what like whatever um to happen and that can have very very bad uh
consequences down the line we're dealing with the voting power of the chain and the majority of the
the voting power in the chain initially and that will control and condition what happens in the
future as well and so if we're not careful with um with these parameters then we always have a risk
that um you know something will go wrong somebody will end up with a majority stake um or something
of the sort and that can create like very very big problems for the projects before so there's a
lot of things that could have been done in the airdrop um in an ideal world and in a world where for
example we have um like civil resistance or a few other features um there are really awesome ways to
do airdrops um but what we prioritized in the decisions that we've made was simplicity and security
to ensure that you know we start on the right foot it may not be perfect but at least we have a very
high degree of confidence that this part of this crucial part of neutron's early life doesn't get
fucked up and that the project can basically you know just start with confidence and and a clean state
thank you
okay i think that if we don't have any other question we can wrap it up just no just a quick yes so i i
kind of know the answer uh why just atom why not give new babies also a chance like fmos and others
so just i know i know the answer but but still would love to hear from you thank you and and you
can drop me down rob thanks well there's there's a few things right simplicity as i mentioned um but
also the fact that you know neutron is replicated security so that the community that it makes the
most sense um having the initial allocation for is the cosmos hub and then the the last element as
well is that you know anytime you add a criteria you're splitting how much everyone gets basically
and so you have to compromise between having an initial allocation that people are going to be
happy about and feel like that actually empowers them to be part of that piece of infrastructure
its governance and the project as a whole um or to reward more people but reward them perhaps
less meaningfully and therefore either create frustration backlash or just indifference
basically so that's another kind of like dimension of airdrops that is fairly hard tonight to navigate it
thank you
uh i have a few questions in the pin tweets as well okay this one above you mean
yeah yeah brian mori if you were still listening to us the way that we know
that like which validators are not going to be jailed for not running consumer chains is by the
percentage of voting power so that is a parameter we would like this parameter to be able to be set
by governance it wouldn't change frequently at all in my opinion but the initial parameter that
we think makes the most sense is five percent and so if you are in the bottom five percent of the
the voting power um then you are not going to be jailed for not running a node and and um and
missing blocks on on neutron that being said if you're at the very border between you know like the
the the the the limit between the five percent which don't have to do it and the rest of the set
you probably still want to start running a node because there because you may get into the portion that has to
run a node let's say overnight and you wouldn't want to wake up and realize that you've been jailed
for for a while right so it you should probably have a margin of error there but other than that
for example if you're validator 150 you can be pretty confidently not running a node because you are
firmly into the the five percent um at the bottom of the validator set and so that allows you to not have
this additional cost perfect and i think also that uh uh the downtime window should be higher on uh
consumer chain i think three plus days correct me if i'm wrong oh yeah yeah yeah um so i think in
general that will be the case the as gian explained though um the soft opt-out compromises liveness right
so it takes longer um to get the voting power required to restart the chain um and so as a result
of this the longer downtime period which also compromises liveness is something that one is
in this case because we also have the soft opt-out probably not going to be required at all probably
not going to be reducing cost as efficiently as the soft opt-out will be um and it's also something
that has a negative influence on liveness and so because we're already kind of um pulling on the
liveness of the chain to you know to minimize the risk that will have any sort of holds or that will
have struggle like struggles during like chain upgrades or uh the like that kind of stuff um we
probably will have a more normal um downtime window um it may still still be extended i i don't know if the
parameter has been set in stone at this point but just keep in mind that both of these parameters
compromise on the same aspect of the chain and so as a result we probably will just go for the
most efficient solution rather than stack them on top so as to avoid having potential problems down the
line yeah i think this is important to address because uh also delegator can sleep well at night
not risking slashing uh during uh any any block time and it's important to address also this concern
because uh we are being very focused on validators but also delegators uh we we always forget that uh
there is always a risk of slashing which is a minimized uh because uh tombstone and this kind of
event that brings a bigger slashing risk are very very rare like uh history of cosmos we had only
probably two three example so i think it's important to address this concern do you want to add the
something space yeah well um i mean i i agree with you right as a delegator it's it's not great um
knowing that potentially if your delegator is not doing a good job you could get slashed
arguably that's part of the setup that is intended to keep the the chain secure you know you have this
risk and so you want to minimize this risk by valid by delegating to validators that you are
confident will do a good job in the specific case of of neutron and consumer chains though um the
slashing upgrades to replicated security mean that unless your validator doubles signs and then
there is a proposal on the hub to slash your validator you will not get slashed consumer chains like
neutron will not at least initially have the ability to slash you in any way shape or form unless there
is a consumer unless sorry there is a proposal on the cosmos hub itself to verify that yes your validator
misbehaved and therefore should be punished so the i think because it's quite rare in general and because
there is this additional layer of security the chances of you being slashed because of your validator
missing blocks on neutron and especially with the soft up doubt are really minimal um it's possible
but it's really unlikely in my opinion at least
okay uh if anyone has a one last question on or spade as a last off i think we can close it we are well
above one hour and uh we are all waiting for for the onchain voting period right now i think it's coming
very soon so very very looking forward for that spade do you have any last off or do you think that
we haven't addressed any uh question or uh or stuff that you might have
no i think actually we discussed like quite a bunch of thing of things so that was it was a pleasure i
apologize to our like to everyone here for um any rents that i may have embarked upon and i hope this
was useful informative to a lot of people if you have any questions feel free to hop into our community
channels on discord and telegram and and whatever uh because that's where we are um available basically
to chat we do focus a lot on our work so we're not available all the time but we try to uh be there and
we we frequently have a lot of conversations with people so come and hang out basically um and yeah
guys thank you for for having us on on on this chat and inviting us um especially after can like
the internet fuck up of of the last time so thanks a lot yeah yeah thankfully we lost so in the beginning
but uh we got you last time was a sewing and you were having some problems so sometimes twitter space
speak uh one person and uh hopefully yeah hopefully even the next twitter space will proceed well like
this one i think that uh we we talked about a lot and a lot of many community concerns that we have
been addressed and especially used by i think you are very very great to explaining all the dynamics so
thank you for coming here and uh bring your knowledge has been very important thank you for all the
the people that participated in the discussion and uh we see you in the next atom zone episode and
hopefully we will see soon the on-chain voting proposal because uh it will be an historic moment and uh
i personally can't wait to make that vote all right guys thank you bye cheers
