Hey, how's it going? I can, I'm, I'm for like 10 minutes, just wanted to.
How many people here have been following all the odd notes stuff? I feel like it's like taking over Twitter, which is pretty nice. I think there's still a lot of, there's still a lot of like,
learning that people are doing just not even only like what do you think people are still in the what our ordinals face much less the which tools can we use to you know have our our users store our ordinals if we're an artist or whenever I think this likes
still incredibly incredibly early and like the education cycle of ordinals. Yeah absolutely I think I think it's super super early but it's it's to me like the most interesting thing is the shift in the Bitcoin culture like I think by far
are the most interesting thing happening is this just shift in the culture and the vibe where it was always like sort of like these two different camps one camp is people who actually use Bitcoin and people who build with Bitcoin and then there is this
other cab or people who just sort of like intellectually talk about Bitcoin. I think there was just like too much talking over the past three or four years and not enough actual use and actual building. And now there's this cultural shift towards folks who are actually using Bitcoin for different things and that sets amazing to see.
Oh, 100%. I think the culture was about maximizing Twitter likes, not about maximizing Satoshi's. And the kind of ironic thing is that the people who were maximizing their Twitter likes
weren't playing the same game as the people who were building and they're not really going to be able to participate to the extent in inscribing things like ordinals and having what they have to say beyond the ledger of record.
So it's kind of like it's kind of a weird irony. I really think it's gonna sound weird, but without ordinals, I think that sort of like hermetically sealed Twitterism was going to be like a cultural enforcer.
And we weren't going to get out of that death spiral and Now we're in like a much healthier place. It's almost like it's almost like imagine a startup has like Like a really bad set of executives and they're like steering the the the culture of the company into a ditch and no one can tell them
otherwise it's like okay well we just did like an executive switch almost and the cultural change is like palpable I think culture is actually is actually dead now and I don't think it's gonna come back I think I think Bitcoin is open for building
like a stuck like a stick in the door and the door is going to stay open like this is not going away.
I think one really interesting part is it also shows how Bitcoin is actually open in decentralized. And this second camp actually didn't have a home, right? They didn't have a common thing.
to get behind and connect with each other and push things forward. And the Ardnils moment just suddenly gave everyone that table. Here's a clear divider. There are people who hate Ardnils and there are people who love them. And the people who love them, they didn't have a
a common connection before and now it's like bringing all of those folks together and a lot of Bitcoin people over the years that have seen have gone over to other ecosystems. In many ways they're sort of like coming back. They're like, oh wow, interesting thing they're happening on Bitcoin.
And they're not rediscovering things like Bitcoin L2s as well. And they're like, oh, wow, this is interesting. I haven't paid attention to Bitcoin in a very long time. And now I'm back. And I kind of like see why this is important.
Yeah, I can believe that looks like Mark is on here. Mark, can you hear us now? Yeah, guys. Sorry, man. It's a little bit flaky today, but glad to be here. First of all, how much sleep have you got in this?
I mean not a lot. A lot of work on this release plus traveling across the world of California has not given me a lot of time to sleep but it's all worth it. It's very exciting. Awesome. You win a
just chat about the thought process behind the support for our NILs and Taproot and what you saw given it seems like the team really went like, "Hey, this is the most important thing to work on right now."
Yeah, for sure. I think like the two of you are talking about, it's like a cultural moment, I think, for Bitcoin. I think it's just incredibly important that we're supporting it. And I think ordinals is not just sort of flavor of the week, I think it really is a new chapter for Bitcoin.
And so for us, a whole mission is to enable use cases on Bitcoin and bring Web3 to it. So we feel very strongly that the ordnance is something we have to have a very thorough support for. And we just released today.
initial release for Ornals and Taproot, as you're saying, for a here wallet. And it's really just a start. We'll be drawing out other features for the Ornals coming a week. And really looking to build for it in a long term.
Yeah, it's sort of funny. Like I had these, you know, once in a while I would consolidate my UTXOs. It's just a good practice to, you know, clean them up and good for privacy, good for like, you know, just just not clogging the Bitcoin chain. So I
And I haven't done that in a while like then the last year or year and a half and but our notes started happening I had this like strange feeling when the Bitcoin fees went up by 10x I had this strange feeling that the Bitcoin fees are actually never coming back and my first thought was oh shit
I need to consolidate a lot of UTXOs. I've been trying to basically get them in before the Ornals stuff does another 10X on the coin fees, which I think is totally possible from here.
I think we have Ken here as well. I don't know if you can speak, but I send you in my
Mark, I wanted to ask you about the hardware support. I think that's a, is it correct that the hardware support is also in the extension, not just the desktop wallet?
That's correct. So last year we spent a lot of time building ledger support for both the browser extension and we also have for the desktop version of the wallet. And that's of course very important to protect the security of access that you have in the wallet. And so today we have
have the ability to connect to Ledger to the extension to manage stack space assets, and soon if you want to manage your Bitcoin based assets, that'll also be supported. So we view-- it's very important to have a dual user experience so we can have a hot wallet if you want, but also a colder wallet. It's a part of our ledger.
Yeah, that's awesome because I think people are realizing how important hardware devices are, especially after things get hacked and they're just
used to putting pretty valuable assets right in their hardware wallet. And with the hardware wallet support, that would certainly make me feel more comfortable using this.
Hey, welcome Ken. For those of you who don't know, Ken is the CEO of X-PORS who also shipped maybe three days ago, Ken, if I'm not mistaken, support for our notes. Hey, everyone, yeah, it's Ken here. So, yeah, we shipped support for originals in our browser extension wallet.
I think that was actually five days ago. And also today we just shipped support for our originals in our mobile wallet. So now you can actually inscribe on your Android and iOS phones and also view your originals in your phone.
That's awesome. I feel like these wallets are probably at the bleeding edge in the ordinal space if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, I think definitely we're seeing sort of upstart wallets come out of the blue as far as well or nose wall and whatnot But these are sort of I'm not there to see my projects with our sort of being pulled together very quickly and I think both here walleteen experts team. We've been working on this for a while
over a year to a couple years now. So, you know, I think we have sort of a head start if you will, let's provide a better, more secure experience in the United
week is that right or something around that? Yeah well so receding is already in place as of today and sending is coming very soon that's our top functional priority for the week so it's important of course the users can have inscribed with tools that are out there like with gammon or
but deposit them into the wall, it's an app collection, but also move them around, of course. We're going to see marketplaces emerge as well soon, so I think it's not just a matter of sending the manager holdings across devices or addresses, but also to interact with other people and do trades.
Cool. Can you do you have a send yet in the extras wallet? Yeah, it's coming really soon. Nice. All working so fast. It's like crazy. It's funny like if you look at the adoption chart for taproot, it was like a flat line
for the longest time and then would be a launch of our nose suddenly the graph started picking up quite dramatically and I'm just thinking that our nose is actually pushing people to go and integrate taproot. When I was trying to describe
I quickly realized that there are most basically like no wallet that supported taproot. Sparrow was the only one and then I had to download it, set up my addresses and then I remember that funny moment when Electrum, which is the OG spec one wallet that a lot of OG people still use, I couldn't even send my BTC from Electrum
to Sparrow and it was like a moment that oh wait like it's it's like taprude is really not that well supported in the Bitcoin ecosystem and now we have like mobile wallets web extensions coming online with full support for taprude right and it's just it's obviously is for ordinary
is primarily, but it's not just for our notes. This is what adoption for Bitcoin looks like. These things, they are at the cutting edge of supporting Paproot in the environments that the user actually used to, like in the browser or on their mobile devices. And I think that's how adoption for Bitcoin actually happens.
Yep, I agree. I mean, Tappu for us was sort of a given if you will because I think we're billion towards sort of more modern Bitcoin standard if you will, but it is surprising that older walls don't have the mentality there.
Yeah, it seems like in the Bitcoin space, a lot of builders are essentially developers making apps and tools for developers and kind of the end user are really taken into consideration. Even if you just look at the interfaces of a lot of these wallets,
gbqon wallets, including Sparrow. I would say if you don't have a good knowledge of how bitcoin works and the different address types and you know tap-through, segwit, you will be very confused even trying to set up a wallet. And that's one of the things that we're trying to change.
We think that if you want mass adoption, Wallet Software has to be on different level in terms of user experience. And that's what we also really focus on. So we want to basically abstract away all these things. Like what is Segway, Taproot,
different ways that while it's not compatible with each other, address for use and things like that, and just try to simplify the experience a lot so that people who are not good-quite-OGs or crypto enthusiasts can get into the ecosystem
system. And I think things like, what I know is really helps with this because now there's utility for things that aren't necessary, very complex, easy to understand. And I think everyone can get behind like JPEGs and hard then things like that.
Yeah, I think I think that's a great point. The early Bitcoin wallets are sort of like for power users, like people who want to have that level of control. And there aren't going to be that many power users for anything.
technology reach like hundreds of millions or billion people. At some point, it's like startups like you guys coming in and you're the bridge to the mass market. That's the way I think I look at it. And in general,
the bunch of the Bitcoin wallets that exist, there are also sort of like these open source projects, like not a lot of them even are properly funded with a focus on creating some sort of business model. I think that's also an important thing, again for this technology to reach a billion people.
You would need to have companies that come in that have clear business models in place. They can charge their users if they're providing a valuable service. And then have that bridge over to the mass market, which was just not happening in Bitcoin because the main
In use case was just holding and that means that most of the actual traction was actually happening at custodians. So people like Coinbase, Custardy or Anchorage, they were getting usage. Institutions or individuals are just basically storing Bitcoin or maybe some hardware wallets who were getting some usage.
not actual mainstream consumer adoption where people are actually using Bitcoin versus versus just holding it. Yeah, I feel like so much in the Bitcoin space which is sort of frozen in time as far as the UX and some expectations around the market like almost 10 years ago and I think it's sort of a shame
but I think we have that opportunity to really revamp our approach. And I think it makes sense in some ways because I think 10 years ago blockchain technology was so new and it was really just for insiders, if you will, but fast-forward in this day and age, we really have to think about the wider market. And so we have an opportunity to rethink a lot of these little concepts and do it, right?
Awesome. Yeah, so this is kind of like a casual hang. Anyone else who wants to come up, ask any questions. I think these I'll be around for like maybe 10 minutes or so and a no mark. Mark hasn't slept. So he's gonna use a bit crash at some point.
So just for just for my knowledge, Ken or Mark, feel free to answer like what other wallets for ordnans are out there? I've used Sparrow. That's that's the one that I've used so far and always get played around with X-Warson hero.
Yeah, so I think the biggest other one is probably OrderNoseWallet.com. I think most likely because they advertise as the OrderNoseWallet and they have the domain, but they're essentially a web wallet.
The security parameters around that is very different from an actual standalone self-custody wallet. I think most people would still prefer to use something that's separate. I think what they're doing is they're actually building
a transcription service and potentially a marketplace as well if I'm mistaken. But if you use their wallet, you kind of stuck with using that wallet just for their service, whereas a standalone wallet doesn't have that problem.
Yeah, and there I think a few other ones as well. You want to explain for the folks the difference a little bit. So basically you're generating a private key in the browser and what's the security implication of using using a service like that. Yeah, so when you just
generate the private key in the browser, basically the application builder developers, they can read your private keys if they wanted to, and potentially other scripts running on that page, or other browser extensions that you
have can also read your private keys and I would never recommend somebody to store large amounts of any crypto asset in a web-based wallet. Always move it to something that's standalone, that encrypts your seed phrase for your private keys.
And it makes it hard for any other program or untrusted party to kind of access your private keys. So I think it's more if you're talking about web-based wallet, I think it's probably closer to a
a custodial wallet versus a self-custody wallet. Yeah, and I think one good point to emphasize here is it has not much to do with the developers of the wallet. Like, they might be well-meaning people, you might trust them, they might not be doing anything malicious, but
just because the keys are in the browser and there is also some JavaScript things that can run and can potentially get access to it. It's sort of like a dangerous thing to do. And in general, like you want to move to, I would say hardware wallets as much as possible. So that's
Great to see. Right. I think we have Christian here. Hi. Maybe this is a general question for Ken and everybody that's kind of moving the dialogue around. So I'm still road mapping a case use for intellectual property rights management kind of dies.
and what's on the market. And everybody's got through on philosophy on cashews and what's working and why not. And the big thing, this is very specific to independent producers and in some cashews applications with authors, with licensing and intellectual properties.
I'm seeing a lot of unaddressed market activity with evidence on antitrust cartel market mechanics with platform players. Everybody from Amazon to Netflix to Disney and this is a pretty outspoken view that you have to substantiate through, you know, like wives to price fixing going on for instance.
Why is there an argument for suppression of an optimized smart contract? And I would state this by just sharing like I'm building my knowledge from relatively nothing and my developers that had built stuff, you know, they hadn't really even started their diligence. So I like that's how I, you know, first of all became aware of stacks.
And I'm like following lightning these days and it's very very specific, but I'm just curious if people are talking about competition law. Like I became interested in Dr. Thep old Shrepl, if I'm pronouncing his name right at Stanford Computational Blockchain Anti-Trust Program because some of these arguments are laid out.
maybe not laid out specific to the case you some working on, but it's just like, it's a global problem right now because you know, super high level people, I could give you an example, Roy Price, the former founder or widely credited founder of Amazon Studios talks about some of these capabilities as well as like stuff I used to talk about with
like blended regulation 8A mechanics like block stack used to launch if I'm not mistaken. So it's a little bit of a nuance like case use specific thing and it just brings up you know it's a little bit different than if you have a Bitcoin user on on and you're for if they're just using it being an investor right.
or if you're producing and you're trying to raise money and you're trying to show them a functional cashews much less work with the SVOD, I just became obsessed with antitrust cartel mechanics as an extension of my diligence and I really have never heard an opportunity for a community to even challenge the findings or discuss
if that's pertinent or not pertinent to like challenge my thinking because I would have to be more specific about what substantiates the claims. And it's just the biggest thing I see to the next scaling in some of these really core case uses where especially with rights retention and any form of digital content it could be
software it could be in an independent cinema and television, it can be podcasts. It's like the conversation that Tim Swinney kicked forward, right? So I think I can maybe just comment from what we are seeing in the StackSecosystem or the
Bitcoin ecosystem specifically for wallets since that's kind of like the discussion. You have almost like two teams up here right now, right? That are sort of like openly competing in the market. It's not actually a bit deeper than just let's say
two startups and Silicon Valley that are offering similar services because the underlying protocol is also open. That's the big difference. Bitcoin is open protocol. The stacks L2 is open protocol. Both things are open source. Anyone can come and build whatever they want on it and X-verse and
and hero, they're sort of like building user interfaces and clients on top, but users are free to leave whenever they want. So there, I think like this model compared to the old kind of like Web 2 or Web 1 model actually encourages competition a lot more and the end users end up benefiting, right? Like because
They're free to leave. It's harder to lock them in. And they're in the line protocol. There are open source. I think there's a deeper point that is not just that, you know, hero is open source and people can fork it at the hero wallet. But the underlying protocol being open is actually a pretty big thing. But I think what you're talking about
It seems like a pretty interesting topic, but I think specifically for the Ordinous Wallet, that's probably the lens to look at it. So I just, like the case use would be like, I have all my rights, my package is ready to go. Everybody's in alignment on my team without being specific.
It is right we get to the the the conversation with Netflix HBO or whomever and they can simply say no matter what my team has done in preparation if I want to use stacks and hero that no we choose not to do business that way right and there's not there's no entity telling them that well that's a bot that's an example of a competition
It's like it's talked about in 2018 with the Mexican Dalai Reem in the Mexico City sessions any instance of suppressing an insurgent technology application simply because the incumbent chooses not to do business in that way is like it's like as I'm as I'm
In other words, as I'm assessing hero and stacks, which I am doing in real time because right now it's what I believe to be one of the best solutions and I'm trying to learn from you guys so I can like argue for it and continue building my knowledge. I just see an immediate and direct
adoption threat because of market abuse, which is really a federal matter. And it's like, I could keep asking questions about KSU specific, you know,
like the philosophy to share, but if the community isn't also collectively looking at where there's major adoption battles because of what I would call illicit
It's like, it's happening at Apple, it's happening at Amazon. That's a global problem. - I think we can probably take more of the details offline as well.
Thanks, thanks a lot. Right, anybody else? I want to let Mark sleep soon. And can it be, it should be pretty late for you.
Yeah, it's pretty late here. It's like 1.30 a.m. But I'm pretty used to it. All right, awesome. Well, this was great. So we have another wallet out there with
support. I can't wait to tell all of my NFT friends about it. And looking forward to all of the features both of you are shipping this week. I feel like in these days we are measuring
time in days and not even weeks or months in terms of like new features coming online. Awesome. Thanks for the thanks again. Thanks everyone.