Next-Level Decentralized Storage w/ @jackal_protocol + @CosmosHOSS

Recorded: March 22, 2024 Duration: 1:12:39

Player

Snippets

Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning, can you hear me?
Yes, loud and clear.
Can you hear me?
Yes, sir.
I had to delete that post
about Yoyo's
launchpad
because we had another
secret scammer
imitator attack.
So, I gotta
repost that in a few minutes.
Twitter is just too much for me.
When are they gonna fix this thing?
Yeah, you know when everyone's starting to do the medicine?
If a team writes a post,
it'll always be like a thread,
which is kind of annoying,
but they'll have a graphic that says
end of tweet or whatever.
Anything, you know, last comment
or something like that.
I think people should probably figure it out by now,
but you never know. People are so gullible,
unfortunately.
Well, if you're Twitter,
and you allow
an account that has blocked
the account who made the original
post to comment
on that account,
or on that post,
that should be like a
very straightforward red flag
for them to pick up at this point and just
or flag it, you know, a spam.
Yeah, I get impersonators
all the time. I just have one the other day
it's stupid that they can
comment on your post, like you said.
It makes no sense. If they block you,
how can they post on your post?
It just makes no sense.
It seems like the easiest fix ever.
And I know that
God bless everybody over at
Twitter or X or whatever they want to
call themselves these days.
They put a lot of effort
into the pricing for Premium
Membership, and I really appreciate
all of the tears that they
broke out there.
So thank you for that, Twitter.
Now fix your platform so people
stop losing money. Anyways,
look, here we go. We got
Jayden. We got Patrick in the room.
Got Yieldmost
down there in the audience. Hey, hey.
Big love for you guys.
Always telling people to use Yieldmost.
So, you know, shout out to
you for being in the room.
But let's jump into it today.
You know,
for those of you that don't know me,
my name is Tyree Robinson. I'm
Head of Ecosystem at
Orion Chain Foundation.
I've been with the company since
2021, and I will be
here until I am
79 years old, and
we've reinvented
Blockchain a hundred thousand times.
And that is, that
will be the retiring age.
79 will be the retiring
age by the time we're allowed to retire, by the way,
guys. So anyways,
yeah, so I'm Tyree.
Happy Friday. Good morning to everybody.
Really hyped
today to be able to have Jackal
and the protocol team
on a space with us.
We've been in conversation over the past
few weeks, and these guys
have brought what I consider to be a really
excellent proposal
to deploy an
outpost over on Orion Chain
Mainnet for their
fully decentralized file
storage system. It's going to open up a lot of
utilities for builders on Orion Chain
Mainnet, and I am
really excited to sort of dive into it deep with you guys.
I'm going to pass it to you,
Jaden Patrick, for some intros.
Great to be here, Tyree. Thank you for
the kind words. Couldn't think of a
better way to spend our Friday morning
than with you and the community here.
Really excited to be here. I'm Jaden.
I'm the Director of Growth
over here at Jackal Labs.
And yeah, as well,
really, really great to be here this
morning. Super excited to get started on
being one of the first deployments of
Jackal Outpost. We can get into that,
but my name's Patrick. I am the co-founder
and CEO of Jackal Labs, where we
build cloud storage
accessible from
blockchains with simple smart contract calls
locally. So we're Cosmos L1
and we deliver value to other L1s.
Yeah, they were
building D-Pen before it was called
Yes, sometimes the narrative comes
to you, I guess.
We're just here to build products that people like
and things that
people care about and
delivers, honestly, just value to
end users at the end of the day.
What day was
the mainnet for you guys?
Things go so fast
in this space. It seems like 10 years ago,
but I don't know, it hasn't been that long.
Yeah, October 2022.
When was the ride change mainnet?
I want to
say February of 2021
was our mainnet 1.0.
Right on.
So, look, this is
first off, you know,
I'm going to say it for the first time
I'm probably going to have to say it again for the next
10 years. D-Pen, right?
When I listened to Greg talk
at ETH Denver, Greg
from Akash, right? He was like
I hate that phrase.
That's like a label that's created
by investment
communities to create narratives for hype
and all of that.
Everything in crypto
is D-Pen in one way or
another, right? So, that
was sort of like a bit of
his conversation.
How do you feel, Patrick, from
your perspective, now that obviously
you said the narrative is catching up with you,
but how do you feel to sort of have
this label applied on you
when you've been really working in
sort of cloud computing for quite
a while now?
Yeah, labels
are just kind of categories,
right? And if people want to classify
us as that, sure, go for it.
But at the end of the day, you won't
really be seeing that on our website or anything
at the end of the day. We
do one thing really specific in its
storage, and we could deliver that value
to other chains at the end of the day.
So, really
I think the EQ3 BC
Fund came up with the name, because they wanted to build
a VC fund around
this kind of idea, right? And they
wanted to have a way to market it, and kind of
like a catch-all. So, I understand it from that
point of view, but
decentralized physical infrastructure,
it's kind of difficult, because
as Greg said, it is a catch-all,
right? As long as you have
physical servers, or kind of some
physical component associated
with your blockchain, then I guess it's a D-pin,
but every blockchain needs
Holodators, so I don't know where
the buck stops at the end of the day, but
Well, and yeah,
that ends up being like a really
important, I mean, for me
what you end up with is this, like
you create a category just
to sort of,
it strips away the uniqueness of what some
people build, and what
Jackal has built is truly unique
and stands apart from other
categories that are not in the same
league, right? And so that's where I guess
you know, without sort of
actually, you know what, this is
your time, I want you to shill it.
Tell us why Jackal is
the best solution available
today for decentralized storage.
There's a number of different things, right?
Jackal is one of the few proof of stake
storage networks, so if you kind of look at the
competitive landscape right now,
most things are proof of work,
so you kind of have a really long
block times, kind of meant for like a
cold storage archive, and they have their use case, and that's
But when you talk about the things that
make Cosmos special, and
IBC special, and Modular Blockchain
special, we took all of that
and applied it to data storage.
That being said, we have a unique ability
rather than kind of fighting
other blockchains in a zero-sum game
for developers. Let's say that you're
a developer on Orion Chain,
and you need data
storage, whether it's for
model weights, or
checkpoints for chat history,
or it's storing foundational
models, whatever it might be.
You find yourself in a situation
where you have two options, right?
Your option number one is
to leave Orion Chain
and go build like on top of
ARWeave or Filecoin,
and they kind of fight with the other blockchains
for developers and users,
which is kind of silly because you lose your community,
you lose your liquidity,
it just becomes really fragmented.
Your other option
is to use AWS
or Microsoft Azure as like a pinning
service maybe to IPFS.
This is great, but
you have great speeds, you have some other
you have to pay with credit card, hopefully
the dev remembers to
continuously renew that credit card or else
everything's gone, but at the end of the
this is central to a point of failure which kind of
defeats the purpose of having decentralized
artificial intelligence or decentralized applications.
So, what Jackal
does is, is it possible to have the best of both
worlds? Can you,
instead of fighting with other blockchains
for the same developers and users,
can you deliver value to those blockchains?
Jackal, we
do one thing extremely, extremely well,
being data storage with
the highest digital privacy, cyber security
products are possible, it's hot storage, we have
proof of stake speeds, we have
all kinds of features that people
really, really need
at the end of the day if you're looking to build
a full stack web app, like a full stack application
on blockchain rails.
So, what we chose to do instead of
fight, we deliver value through
something we call Outposts, and
this gives us the ability to take all of our
blockchain modules, jam them into
a smart contract and deploy them cross-chain.
That means
as long as we can get arbitrary
data back to the Jackal blockchain
to kind of do the storage
stuff, you have
the ability to
access scalable
data storage locally
on a ridechain or any other
blockchain with a simple smart contract call.
This is just
like having it locally, so
every blockchain is a file coin, every blockchain
is an air weave, and every blockchain
is now a Jackal, right?
It's our developers are your developers
and your developers are our developers
and it kind of gives us more of a unified
front and we're providing
service rather than fighting. That's kind
of how I like to explain it at least.
Yeah, thank
you for that Patrick, and I mean from
your perspective
hear my daughter yelling in the background
here, pardon me, so
from your perspective right
when we look at
the use cases, and you touched on it a little bit,
looked at the use cases that are going to
be sort of unlocked by this, what
are the most exciting things that you would like to
see built using
Jackal, specifically
on a ridechain in the outposts
that you deploy over on this site?
Of course, so right now
as you know, blockchain is kind of limited
to mostly financial and
governance and lending use cases
because we can't put that much data on chain.
By having a Jackal outpost
unlocks all kinds of new verticals
for developers on a ridechain, which is
pretty cool. So if you want to think about
in the areas of peer-to-peer
transfer, compute over data, you want
to get into decentralized science, data
dows, internet
of things, stuff. If you wanted to kind of build
a little deep in app that's AI enabled, that would
be cool too. E-signatures,
data marketplaces, publishing,
AI and machine learning applications,
cyber security use cases,
social use cases,
it really unlocks that
one core component of
the stack that
is really important if you're
looking to build a full scale
application at the end of the day,
which usually the
blockchain leads that value either
to other storage monolithic
ones or to AWS
and Microsoft Azure. So kind
of unifying it, making it simple,
having it locally so you can actually
actually decentralized applications in
a way that it's meant to be,
right? Just smart contract calls, no
API spaghetti, none of that stuff.
It's pretty cool
and this is kind of why I think IBC
wins. It unlocks new verticals, we
can deliver value rather than fight
and we were built
for a specific use case and
we want to deliver as much value
to other blockchains at the end of the day.
It just really unlocks new verticals,
data dows, even at
marketplaces for that matter.
The sky's the
limit really, which is pretty exciting.
for those of you in the crowd
that have worked with me,
there might be a few people in here in the past
that what I love to do
is connect people right away
with potential
partners where there
might be synergies for people to immediately
begin to use new resources that
are available on a ride chain.
One of the first things
that we looked at together
how can we
have a proposal from Thales right now
who is built over on Injective currently
but at the same time we
have this great proposal from Jackal coming in
but how can we make sure
that you guys are placed right away
with use cases
that are going to be
exciting to see you
guys used on day one
because that's number one.
I think that you're adding incredible
value to the network, obviously
deploying natively and
adding more utility to a ride token
which we'll sort of touch on in a hot minute
but also it's
important to make sure that
once you've deployed in
let's say three or four months from now
it won't take another six months
for you guys to be
What's sort of your go-to-market strategy?
Maybe Jaden this is a question for you
but what's your go-to-market strategy
with these outposts to sort of
get involved with the chain and be a part
DX tooling experience?
I think that's a great question and I'm happy to jump
off here.
I think the name of the game with these outposts
and the most important thing for
even setting them up and building
the foundation is to find partners
with shared vision in mind.
So Tyree and Arai Chain are a
perfect example where our
go-to-market strategy
is going to be one of extreme
collaboration and synergies.
So as Tyree said
we have a proposal
live and he's already
connecting us with Talus. He's already
connecting us with other teams
that are thinking about coming over to Arai Chain.
So that's going to be
a big focus of mine
as soon as the
outpost is deployed and even
before the outpost is deployed
is to make sure that any and all projects
that are even thinking about
coming over to Arai Chain know about
Jackal, know about how we can help
and then from there
developing
almost looking at it the exact same
way that we're looking at the partnership with Tyree
and Arai Chain where everything
needs to be
towards a shared vision.
So with Talus for
example, if Talus comes and deploys
on Arai Chain, it's our
job at that point to get in a room
with Talus, find how Jackal can deliver
the most value for a project like
that and then to go out and execute.
I think the last
thing, especially with these first couple of
things that we would want is
for this to not
a dozen plus use cases, as
Patrick said. So that is
and has to be
our focus once
these outposts are deployed and even
before that.
And now Jaden from the
just to make it clear here, this is
one of the first
if not maybe the first
outpost deployment, is that correct
or is there another one already live?
Nope, nothing's live yet
and another thing
Tyree is like
the cool thing about the way that we're
building these outposts or thinking about
building these outposts is each one of them
is going to be bespoke.
Your priorities
with Arai Chain and your
focus on AI are
going to be different than other L1s.
So that's the really cool
thing for curious
guys like us at Jackal
where we get to partner with
projects that we believe in
like Arai, unlock unique use
cases and figure out how to tailor
and build Jackal to
accommodate, to excel
in those environments.
So yeah, as you said, no outposts
and this is absolutely going to be the
first where we're even breathing
in the AI space.
It should be noted as
well with the retrieval augmented
generation and
this is something with AIs early and we all
know that but kind of new
frameworks to how to leverage AI
is really interesting too
where essentially
if you're an AI developer
and you want to
build an AI
and you have a few options
you can pay OpenAI
a bajillion dollars
for the API calls
for outgrowing those even pretty quickly.
Option two is you can pay around
five million dollars to find two in a model.
Option number three is you have to build
your own foundational model that is
kind of on par
with the current standards and those are
the three options.
The downside of that is it's super expensive
obviously, whether it's development
time or you have to pay a third party
and the other thing is that there's
no way for that AI to be
trained under proprietary information
while maintaining a high
privacy and security posture so
these retrieval augmented
generation frameworks that we're looking at is something that
we're really excited to bring to
a ride chain in general. I know
B's been working really hard on it where
you essentially hack an AI
to know your business's
proprietary information without losing
security posture by protecting the
vector database within the JACO protocol.
It's pretty cool stuff.
I would like you Patrick
to give even maybe
for anybody that's just hearing about
RAG frameworks for the first time just
a really quick high level
what it is, why it's important
you touched on it a little bit but I just want to get
even a little bit more
simplified for people that are hearing
RAG frameworks for the first time.
Of course. I don't
do it as good of a justice as our developer
B but I'm going to
give it my best shot for you guys.
Essentially with a RAG framework is
the AI LLM to understand
proprietary information about your business
so it can give you
just results that matter
right? So let's say that I
grocery store right? It's a small business
it's community owned
and I want to make informed decisions about
marketing campaigns and I have
all this data about my customers
all this data about
all of our sales and all of our sales history
and what time people come to the door.
me to leverage AI for
me to make informed decisions about
a marketing push for example
my options are
fine tune
my own model which would cost
$5 million
or build my own foundational model
and I'm a grocery store and I don't have developers right?
So RAG frameworks give us its
unique ability to hack an LLM
to understand your vector database
at the end of the day.
We have a really cool blog on it as well
if anyone wants to go read that on our website
but essentially you
make a call to
the AI whether it's
we like to use open source models so it's usually
a lot of index. You make a call
it goes through our vector database
that's kind of protected and self-custodial
on the Java protocol so you can
maintain privacy and if you have any privacy
files associated with your customer's data that you need to
protect you're good there
as well and then it takes
the LLM runs through that vector database
and it now has context about your
business. You can do this on a really
really small scale if anyone has an open
AI account you can upload
up to 10 files
but this can be a limitation
very often and it doesn't have
that good of a context often as well.
Once it runs through that context
using the RAG framework now you
can actually get a response
that not only is
tailored to you but it's also
extremely efficient and extremely cheap
like we're talking 200X
500X improvements when it comes to
price. It's
pretty special stuff plus you maintain
self-custody, privacy
security posture
you can go down the list
let alone cost of course
there's a lot of
benefits to doing it this way where essentially
hacking the AI to know your data
without giving up your privacy.
I think that this is
we see two different
movements here
not two different movements but two different
mediums for AI generated
content that are really primary right
now. We see
generative text which is
one chunk where
that's a little bit of what you're talking about right now
but also we're seeing
a lot of media
and content being generated
as well. This
idea of RAG frameworks also enables
individuals to be able to
permission or remove permissions
for access
to their proprietary intellectual
that might be used in
a generative AI model
generating images or music or something
like that. Is that right Patrick?
Not as much for
me. I just have this front state as I said like
AI's early and RAG's super early so
right now it works best in the context
of a large language model
but going forward I wouldn't
be surprised if it starts doing things in the
area of text. It just depends on what model you're
using at the end of the day and what it's
enabled to do. At the end of the day
the value that RAG frameworks
would deliver to a RAG chain is
essentially
smaller development teams
that are startups on a budget can punch above
their RAG class really, really simply and efficiently.
I think that's the best
way to put it. It
has all kinds of privacy and security benefits
if that's something that they value but
at the end of the day it gives AI developers
to punch above their RAG class and
go toe to toe with
really large AI
models but kind of
more in an
application specific way rather than just
having something that does a lot of things really well
I don't care about a lot of things. I just want to have a
good marketing plan as I gross it.
It's a little
bit more bespoke. You can punch above your RAG class
and it's very specific to the use case.
Now maybe
maybe a bit of a question
for you Jaden but when we look at
obviously the DAO
Treasury as you guys know
has grown to be quite significant
right now. As we're
looking to sort of
collaborate if this proposal
has passed, what type
of programming would you be
looking for to
incentivize people
to learn and
use Jekyll's
storage outposts over
on a ride chain in order to actually
push that adoption. Obviously there's
the business development. Let's get people
in front of you but everybody
in crypto works on incentive.
I don't think there's anybody in
our audience would disagree with that.
What would you think are the most effective
ways to be able to
incentivize people to use
Yeah that's a great question and I think
that we've been pretty fortunate
up to now with regards
to incentives where
the only incentive that we've
really stressed so
far is a two
gigabyte for a couple of pennies
plan. And really the idea of that
Tyree is to get people trying Jekyll
so that they can see the value
and then they end up buying a couple of terabytes
and we've had a
great success rate with that.
Now with regards to other
incentives just because we've been
lucky so far doesn't mean that
we're closed off
to considering what
works best. And I think
with regards to specific
incentives I think the best thing that we
can do is just be flexible.
Learn about the community that we're
about to jump into. Learn about what
incentives are working so far and then potentially
align ourselves
in that direction.
And to be clear
here it's not only
obviously we're talking right now about
expanding the developer toolkit but
I do want to create some space so you can discuss
some of your current
consumer facing applications that you
have ready and that
would be deployed with
this grant as well.
That's the awesome thing right?
Essentially it's a smart contract that has
all of our modules ported into
our ride chain. So now our ride chain is Jekyll
right? So it's pretty cool
in that sense and that means that all of
the native apps that are built on Jekyll come
right away.
It says so every app
whether it's a
radiant application, radiant
for example it's like 200 year storage
that you pay once and you store forever.
There's other things
in the area like Stratus like
API base but you also have Amuse
which is a mobile app.
There's Beacon which is more of
a medium style publishing platform
with Jekyll Dashboard if
you want to have the ability to
have a personal drive
But at the end
of the day the incentives
obviously we can do token incentives and things on those lines
but to this point
developers have just been really
excited to work with a team that is
number one where we'll do anything
for our builders
whether it's on our chain or any other chain
that is using Jekyll. We're there for them
we're available for them.
The other thing is
the moat that we like to have
is just really
outworking
and just shipping applications
on Jekyll, shipping outposts on to
other chains, giving just
great developer evangelism so that we're there for
them and they're excited to work with us.
And then on top of that we're still like
25x cheaper than
AWS when it comes to
their storage needs.
3x multi-region redundancy that will run you
about $200 a month per terabyte.
It's no ingress, no egress
If you decide to cancel your plan we're not
going to charge you the cancellation fees.
There's a lot of competitive advantages
when it comes to features but there's a lot more
holistic benefits as well to working with us
in general.
Yeah that's
incredible and as we've
sort of discussed
part of the challenge
for everything is documentation
so I want to
toss it back to you for a second Patrick
to talk about what kind of documentation
you guys have available
for developers right now
developer community can expect
in terms of documentation
once you have deployed
is this something that
if you're a first time developer
will be easy to tap into
or is this like only for
pro level, been in the space
and have been
this is maybe
so I want to sort of hear your
opinion on that.
Yeah just kind of being like a foundational
layer of the stack. It depends
whether are you building an application
or are you just like an end user that wants like an awesome
place to store their memes right
so it kind of being valuable
and having all kinds of different use cases
makes it a little bit difficult for us but it's also
a wonderful competitor at the edge at the same time
so when you look at
documentation obviously we need to have
awesome documentation for all the developers
and that's going to be a big focus of ours
but also just developer evangelism
and just having great support
for the developers that are building there
sometimes that's just as good
but of course
documentation is important, everyone has to have it there
but for the end users
for people that may not be developers
they just kind of want to use Jocko storage
in a specific way
you're going to have all of our
applications so whether you just want
cloud storage, whether you want to write a blog
publish it, whether you want to
store something forever
make sure your keys aren't going to go away
if an Amazon server explodes or something like that
right so it's about
kind of having valueability
being like a really low level of a stack
it's hard for us to anticipate all the different use cases
because storage is just fundamental
for almost every app on the internet
documentation 100% is going to be there
at the end of the day
yeah and I guess for me I'm more
thinking about people that
AI is fun because
it attracts a brand new audience that is
not really a blockchain audience
and because all of
your storage is really going to rely
on smart contract calls
I wonder about
people that are now coming in and
learning new languages, learning new skill sets
all they want to do is
build a bot
that's going to operate on top of
blockchain so I'm
wondering about, especially
with sort of the RAG framework
thinking about somebody that says
okay well I want to create a bot
either for myself or my users
that's going to use my analysis
or my database that's going to be
triggering an AI agent
to send certain signals
or make certain trades
whatever it might be
for somebody that's working on
from purely the AI
side, maybe you might have
somebody on your team like this
how do you anticipate that transition
to working with Rust
and working with Cosmwasm
and then dealing with sort of
cross-chain IBC
with Jackal
how do you anticipate that experience is going to be?
Yeah, well
the same reason that they would
come to build an AI application
on a ride chain is likely the same reason
they would want to use Jackal
so if they didn't care about self custody
or censorship resistance
or resilience against information
supply chain attacks and things along these lines
it's very likely
that they're just going to be like
I'd rather just build this AI
myself on a local computer or have
a server in my house or an Amazon server
but if those are your core values
and that's why you're building an AI
we're like a core feature of the stack
for them and
they can build an AI agent
locally with just a database
and a little bit of storage and you can do that
but if you want an
actually wonderful application
like for example
let's say that I built an LLM
agent and I want my agent
to remember my conversations
very simple use case like I don't
want my AI agent to have dementia
for example I wanted to
I wanted to come back to it I wanted to remember
I wanted to have all these things
this is a use case where you'd want to integrate
Jackal for that so at the end of the
day we're here for the developers that
are building on a ridechain if they're there for the
same reasons that they're on a
ridechain it's very likely that they would want to use us as well
we're going to bring
Epic documentation we're
also bringing our apps to the consumers
and as well once we start
to get into the larger files and
videos Jackal's a
great bucket storage solution for that as well
just bringing more functionality
and just bringing all of Jackal's features
to a ridechain so we can punch above our
weight class together is kind of my thought process
yeah that's awesome and
so let's talk
about economics a little bit right so
obviously in your proposal
the idea here is
that all payment
for Jackal
storage services would
be through a ride token so
it is adding utility
for a ride token and
for our core user base
but how does that value translate
for value into
value for Jackal's
validator set storage providers
on the ridechain side
the value that's delivered is you have
more kind of
transactions on chain that's a big one
you have another use case for the ride token
there's a lot of like kind of meta
economic benefits that a ridechain receives
when it comes to the storing of the data
so what happens is
a message is sent to the validators
on Jackal and then the storage providers
receive the file and then their copy for redundancy
and our validator set maintains that storage
so at the end of the day you're paying
in a ridechain with a bunch of meta-economic
solutions for a ridechain
whether it's unique
transactions, whether it's
how many transactions per block
whether it's more use cases for the ride token
I think we put
a lot of thought into this and the application
and there's a ton of stuff there as well
but for the Jackal
network when it comes to
storage you have to pay for
you have to pay for the service that's
going to be rendered and for us to
do that you're paying about eight dollars a month per
terabyte to the Jackal
protocol to make sure that that data
is stored so it is
it's essentially just like payment for the service
rendered and that's the economic solution for
the Jackal protocol and the incentives to store that data
the storage providers need to be paid and the data
has to go somewhere
Yeah and just to be clear
that gets paid
validators and storage
providers in USDC
in Jackal token
in a ride token, how do they receive those
payments? Yeah so
before the V4 upgrade which should be
going in Q2
it has to be paid in Jackal
so there has to be a way for
us to receive payment on a ride
get it into Jackal and then pay
the network. After that
V4 we can actually start taking a new
token any IBC token as
payment so that the
storage riders can get like a basket of currencies
rather than just kind of
sole exposure to Jackal so they can be paid
in a ride as well. So
it's kind of comes down to
path of least resistance to
getting started but after that we
can start working on other things where we
would really like for our storage providers and our validators
to also be paid in our ride tokens as well
which is pretty cool. Yeah
I mean that timeline really works
out to, and correct me if
I'm wrong here Patrick, but that timeline works out
to be essentially in line
with your deployment here. So
if you guys
looking at where we are today let's just call it
7 days from now or so
you guys are putting your
proposal on chain 5 days from there you're
voting and then about 3
as I understand it
that would bring us easily
into the beginning of Q3 so there's an opportunity
there's a chance that your
validators may be able to get paid
in a ride or even
Noble USDC however
they want it to get paid from
our side. Very likely
obviously it's blockchain development and there's a lot of
moving parts it's kind of like flying an airplane
and fixing it on the way but
100% assuming that the B4 upgrade
goes through on the Jocko Protocol by the
time that the outposts is deployed
obviously outposts is priority
number one for us before the
B4 upgrade but
make sure that the services are rendered and we
over deliver on our promises. So
whatever the current state of the
Jocko Protocol by the time we deploy that's going to be
the basis but after that
next priority is shipping that B4
so I feel
like it's a very very large possibility that
by the time that we deploy the outposts
it's like
it's like really really really early
probably in the voting period or pretty close to getting
passed is my
anticipation but
blockchain development it's the amount of
time plus three months when it comes to like
protocol development not as much the outposts
that's awesome and I think that we're
you know as we're looking
obviously
we love adding new tokens to our ecosystem
so what I'm trying to get an understanding of right now
is whether or not we're going to
have you know
Jocko as a part of this
sort of on the
sort of periphery of this proposal we're
also going to go ahead and list
a Jocko Arai pool over
on Arai DEX and if that would be
a fundamental piece of creating
that swap
that transfer so that all of your people
on the Jocko
Protocol side are receiving their
funds in Jocko Token
of course, of course
having more pools and having more liquidity
is always really important for us for the
liquidity planning standpoint in general so
that's not out of the question at all
it really just comes down to
the current state of the Jocko Protocol by the time
the outposts is deployed
so whether it's just a ridechain directly to
the Jocko Protocol or we have to do a
swap on a ridechain before
having a service rendered it really depends
Yeah that's awesome
and I mean
for your Jocko
for your Jocko community
tell us a little bit about your token
for a minute, like what is the core
utility of the token, how does
your token accrue value
inside of your ecosystem
Yeah, so the Jocko Token
is kind of a frank and
sign of a lot of things which is pretty interesting right
so it's number one, it's a medium of exchange
for data storage right now
it's collateral for storage providers to spin up
the network so in the event that they don't do a respectful shutdown
the collateral gets flashed
if they don't do a respectful shutdown
then it's not really a big deal because we have
three times redundancy and the network will
auto-heal for that third form of redundancy
but to kind of have like a
softer transitionary period
we like to have collateral for the storage providers
it's a work token to capture the value
of the applications that are built on the Jocko Protocol
that are also cross-chain deployed
voting power obviously
in vertical governance
you stake Jocko to secure the protocol
and earn yield for doing so
incentivize bootstrapping operational expense
for storage and for validators
when it comes to the economics
of how the Jocko Token works
right now it's
purely inflationary but
in this V4 upgrade that's
probably going to be really close to the time without
post-deployment or maybe before
maybe a little bit after
this is kind of more it's like a real
yield slash inflation hybrid
so we have a mint module that
kind of I kind of see it as like a universal
basic income that's like that inflation
that most Cosmos chains have
to secure the network and incentivize
validators that's going to be lowered
quite a bit and then we're going to kind of move
towards more of a real yield framework with storage
payments right so
about like 35% of the storage payment would go
directly to the providers about 40%
goes to the protocol on liquidity
to make sure that their Jocko protocol has
like more income streams and then
there's also like a referral router so
if there's a referral you
use your name service to
like refer other users
there'll be a commission for that if there's no code
then it goes directly to the stakers as well
so it kind of
it's just kind of an
inflation real yield hybrid is what we're going
for in this next cup Craig
yeah that's awesome
and you know
from my perspective we've been
tokenomics is like one of the hardest things
we've gone through
major change in our tokenomics
in the past year where
we were focused primarily on
on making
sure that there would you know
that the DAO was really in control
of the network right this was a major
sort of shift for us so
today we're having this conversation because
six to eight months ago
as the foundation we decided
we're going to cut out the
allocation for the team
we're going to cut out the allocation for the advisors
we're going to dump
a ton of money into
the DAO treasury and make
sure that this direct
democracy or
representative democracy of a ride chain
is this opportunity
for people to come and actually
to build the network the way that they want to see it
in the future
so far we've been really
lucky and I would say even
I'm not too religious but I'm going to say
blessed to not have any
sort of scam spam
proposals and
I think that you guys are
really a crowning
proposal for a ride chain
at this point where we're
looking at
actually enriching our
ecosystem for people to build
AI based product on our
network and there's a lot of
value that can be added
through a truly decentralized
storage protocol that
is not sort of synced up with the network via
API that's actually
as decentralized as possible
smart contract calls
you know what I mean and you guys
you've done excellent work I would love if you
could actually share
some screenshots from
your explorer because I really
enjoyed when you pulled that up on the
call with us the other day it was kind
of beautiful to see how many transactions
are actually happening on
Jackal all the time.
Jackal's not an easy chain to run and I love
our validators like it's
put simply
it's a bit of a chain to run for sure
right it's the
transactions are full
it's because a lot of our transactions are
not as much financial transactions
but it's a lot of kind of running the cloud environment
changing permissions uploading new files
creating new storage deals
healing redundancy stuff like that
so we had a ton of transactions
and our blockchain grows really
quickly so hats off to our
validators they're like the best of the best and they've
curated like a really technical awesome community
but to kind of bring it back
to like the proposal
we're happy that we're
kind of in a position to kind of set
the tone and standard of what
a Raichan expects
from a proposal standpoint
outside of that when you look at
like kind of the progressive decentralization
of blockchains and pivoting from
more of like a centralized structure where it's the core
team and the builders
and as the time goes on
and the blockchain grows it becomes progressively
more decentralized and kind of turns into
like an empire owned by the people
kind of the beauty, right?
It's why blockchains are
special, number one, there's
this magic spreadsheet, that's never wrong
so that's like all the different use cases you can do with
that is pretty awesome but the other thing
that's pretty awesome is the fact that there's no trust
you don't need to trust a
specific person or a specific entity
and it moves from kind of
having a lot of trust to being
more of a distributed, decentralized
and kind of a more ethical
platform where the
people take over and
at the end of the day, empire owned by the people
and that's kind of something that you've said before that really
resonated with us
Yeah and so everybody
knows, I guess I
coined this phrase because now you're using it
and I love it
I love hearing you say it but
this is something that I said
last week in Texas when I was talking to a room
I would say
average age, I think I've quoted it as
65 and I was telling them
about AI and blockchain
and they started
out very skeptical
and then after about 3 hours
of walking through
the absolute basics of this technology
and explaining how the applications
could actually improve their life
improve their relationship
with AI, especially in a time where
everybody's afraid of AI
and they came out of it very excited
asking, well how do we
get that version of AI
and the truth is, the version of AI that I was
talking about is democratized
artificial intelligence
where the people, not
sort of economic incentive but
the actual people have control
over their exposure to their
to this ecosystem
of AI models
which is very difficult in the
current legal framework
of what's going on, everything on the internet is fair use
I was on a call yesterday
listening to BitTensor talk about how
they can just crawl everything
and monetize models on everything
on the internet and I'm just like, my head is spinning
I'm like, we sacrifice
and personal data
which is really property rights
for innovation
and that's just so scary to me
and I do look at decentralized file
storage and your solution as being
a step towards creating a more respectful
ecosystem
that doesn't hamper
innovation, so when we talk about
an ecosystem, an empire built by the people
and owned by the people
it's really about respecting that
the data provider
is the person
that enables the
AI developer to do
their job well and all of those people
are part of the economic ecosystem
whereas right now
the internet is
click accept all cookies
click accept the privacy policy
and you're off and running
your data belongs to everybody else except you
and that's really scary to me
so as much as we talk
about DLT as being about
the perfect ledger and all of that
what does this actually mean
for data ownership
and actually this is something that
I think Patrick when I first heard you guys
talking a couple of years ago
when I believe you were building on secret at the time
before you had launched your own chain
you know we had sort of
discussed this a little bit on a Twitter space right
like how can
people sort of
regain control
of their data so
that we can get to a place where they can opt
in to sharing it and
then monetize it. I'm curious if
that you've sort of been developing in that direction
at all and sort of where your perspective
is on it now. Yeah well the beauty
of Jocko is that we can't access your
data in this completely self-custodial
right and
the permissions are on the chain
you own your data so it's kind of
like the best of both worlds because
people want cloud for scalability but
they kind of become
perpetual tenants of
that platform where everything is owned by
the provider and
DLT it's more than just
kind of ownership
and like this magic spreadsheet
right you can
comparing a blockchain or
a distributed ledger to legacy companies
legacy companies they can't promise
security they have misaligned
goals they can ditch a product at any time
they're completely freewheeling
they break promises over
and over whether they mean to or not
whether that's a security promise or whether that
is we're not going to use your data promise
kind of thing and
the reason why we're kind
of in our own zone
when we're building blockchains
compared to like traditional
companies is they
see blockchains as like a threat
to their power kind of seen as a leash
I think that's kind of the reason why
we're in this kind of global cyber
security crisis to begin with
gave up ownership
in this kind of era of
SaaS software everything is run
in the cloud you have to have inherited
trust and inherited
hope that their security posture
is really good
you kind of run into this thing where they
don't like blockchains because
it's a threat to
their kind of freewheeling power
over the specific application
that they built right that's kind of how I
see it at least
yeah I think that there's you know we
where we talked about sort of blockchain
being more or less trustless
you know I have some
especially when it comes to AI I have some
reservations about how trustless
we can really be with AI
entering the equation
but you know let's just call it
trustless for a minute you know in the
real world it's all about trust
right it's about we trust our
government and our regulators and the oversight
to keep a leash on
the corporations and we trust
the corporations because their brand
and their you know their words
you know and their
affiliations are
trustworthy and eventually
people don't know why they
trust the people that they trust
with their data at all
right we don't know why we
choose one bank over another
we don't you know and
we've seen banks and
social media companies and everybody abuse
this trust
this is part of the reason why we're in
this space right is
we're all trying to find a
system that is better
for everyone and ultimately
one of the big things that I'm always
focused on is how can I
just put the seed into
you know policymakers
minds especially because I'm
constantly sort of reaching out and talking to
policymakers that blockchain
is something that is more than crypto
and that there is this
huge open source
movement where that can hold
big corporations task and say
hey you know you say
that it can't be done that
you can't possibly respect
you know data sovereignty
of the individual user on your
platform it's impossible you'd have to
rebuild your whole system to do it
when in fact there
are fundamental primitives out there that
can really change the game
you know right now
if you begin today
in five to ten years you could
actually have a system that's
more fair and economics that are more
inclusive right so
absolutely
absolutely and this is why
blockchains deliver on their security
promises right it's governed
by unchangeable code and not
like people and their word
you don't have to take people's word for it
it's governed by unchangeable code
and that's the only way that you can make
security legit and relentless
blockchains don't care about outside
pressure, they don't have misaligned
priorities, they don't have fear, they don't have
politics, they just run
unchangeable code and you don't have
to take people out of their word and I think it's super
important to have this technology
and I think that's why
it's so special at the end of the day
yeah and I guess the, and Hans
you know you always come on these calls
you eat up all the time so I am going to pass it to you
in a quick second
it's all good, I'm just chilling
I had a really rough night of sleep
and it's just because I'm kind of brain dead today
so it's just like I'm chilling
but I'm excited man, it's just
yeah I know
Jack will, when I first
found out about him way before
they were, you know
at the time I think they were even
just getting ready to go on
back in a day or whatever, but
yeah I've been excited for them ever since
one of the things I pivoted from my own
wrong doom was whenever
UST and Luna thing happened
I was like you know what, as much as I love
finance and DeFi and all that
that's like my background, I really need to
start digging into
chains and
tolling and everything else that's being built
that's not specifically
just another DeFi protocol
and that's when I shifted my
focal point and started looking into
people that are just
building infrastructure
and when I found out about
Jack I was like yeah this is a no brainer
this is just something that's going to be
around forever, it
adds value to everyone obviously
that's what this whole call is about is how
it can add value to a
ride chain, the ecosystem, to anyone that's
going to deploy and build now
10 years from now
so it's just really exciting
these are the things that
kind of excite me, from
the outside in it
looks boring because it's not just like another
virtual casino
like most DeFi is
it's just like a casino but
yeah it's something that's really sustainable
and I'm really looking forward to it being on there
and then just random use
cases and things of that nature
well and I would say
gravitate towards
flashy things, it's human
kind of jumping back
into this brief little
mention I said a second ago
is that it's really difficult to have
a trustless environment when everybody's
trying to force AI
into their dApps
what we've seen
in the past year
is super encouraging
we've seen
expanded functionalities in web
3, we've seen all kinds of
promised use cases
in practice
show our hands how many people are actually
in their day to day
on chain every day
I probably venture to
say almost no one
so we've been stuck in this
where there's a lot of people that are
sort of talking about
integrating AI into
their web 3 apps
the promise of it is super
exciting but the reason why we don't see
major adoption yet
I would say is because
there is such a big leap
of trust that needs to happen
and I think we're all pretty aware
that because of
the probabilistic nature of
these very early
AI models
it's so hard to trust them with
financial decisions and just say
here is $10,000
make me money
I'm not going to look at anything you do
that's terrifying
and I don't think we're there yet
so one of the big things that we've been
working on here
at a ride chain is developing
our AI Oracle system
which is entirely about
bringing transparency to BlackBox
AI models so that when
somebody comes in and they integrate
AI into their dApp
rather than just saying
okay I trust that it's accurate
there is an on chain proof
that that model has been back
tested, benchmarked
and is performing reliably in real time
and those proofs are not
only sort of metadata
JSON file proofs that are
on the blockchain explorer
there's also translated into
a very human readable
report that you can go
through category by category
and actually see
is it a reliable model
is it affected by adversarial
is it available and fast
all of the different things that you might care about
when you're making super fast
decisions and relying on an AI model
to do something
I look at this as being a
step towards
bringing more trust into
the equation
trust is about
the storage of the data as well
everybody talks about
decentralized file storage
but I'm sure Patrick
you'll have a lot of things to say about this
but I think that in reality
a lot of people are still using
AWS in the background
what's the deal with that Patrick?
Well as they should
no one's built a
storage layer that deserves
people's data at this point
predominantly used for backups, archiving
putting data to rest for a
really long time
and if you look at the last
few bold markets it's extremely
competitive for all the
applications that are being built
and if one person decides to
use something that's not truly decentralized
then everyone will and
as they should, they want to build the best product
the best application for their use case
the infrastructure wasn't there yet
when you look at deep end startups
they take years to build
and they take sometimes
even longer to find product market fit
it's just the name of the game
when you're building a multi-dimensional
really complex cloud environment
on blockchain rails it takes time
and they haven't been the flavor
of the months until recently
just purely because of the fact that
they're like deep tech startups
if you're trying to build
it's like Snapchat versus
at the end of the day or a deep
biotech startup
it just takes a lot of time, there's a lot of dimensions
multiple P2P networks, you have to build these
blockchain modules that are custom built for a specific
use case, you need to balance everything, it's your
bandwidth works, you need to build
an application on top, make sure that it's usable
it just takes a lot of
time and these deep end startups
a lot of the ones that
are doing well now, they
started years ago, the cash started in what
maybe earlier, they were the first blockchain to
use IBC, look at us
we started in 2021
we went to Mainnet in
2022 and we've just been trying to
stack them for advantages and make a product that's usable
and it takes time
and the infrastructure
just hasn't been there, it hasn't caught up to
what blockchain requires
for all these application developers
and we're happy that
we're finally at the stage where we have
a product that is on par
with what they require
we're still going to be a little bit slower
because of privacy guarantees
because when you
upload a file to Jackal it's
unencrypted so the encryption blows the file
so it'll be a little bit slower but it's
pretty damn close right now
to what we're used to and it's
just like the state of it, it's not anyone's fault
that they are forced to
use AWS. Even if you go to
Filecoin or ARWeave, you want to go use
Filecoin. Filecoin's
landing page will push you to
web3.storage
web3.storage is an IPFS pinning service
where they use Amazon servers and then they back up
the files to Filecoin
you go to ARWeave and you
want to use ARWeave, they'll push you
to Bundler. Bundler is
a Amazon server that
bundles transactions together and pushes them
to ARWeave all at once because
people require speed
we kind of have a
last mover's advantage in a weird way
we got to see where everyone kind
of made poor tech stack decisions
we get to observe
all the ways that they kind of
coded themselves into a corner
and we have the ability for us to use the
technology that we have today to actually build
the service that was promised back in
it's kind of like why did
Google beat internet
Google Chrome beat Internet Explorer
Instagram beat Flickr, why did Facebook
beat MySpace, it's kind of sometimes
it's best to move lost
in my opinion
I think that it's especially
for anybody that's used to the neck breaking
speed in web3
when you are planning to be
around forever it's best to take your
time and get it right
rather than worrying about
the token, the hype first
it's important to spend the time
in R&D and actually
ensure that your solutions are
100% ironclad
or as close as you can get
before attempting to sort of
go where you are today which is
to say okay we're ready to start building
outposts in different chains we're ready to start
serving that developer community
abroad not only just people that want
to come over and
use products that are available on Jackal today
but you know porting those services
over to new chains
you really have to be very confident in that
because all of a sudden other
ecosystems are going to be relying on you
so it's a great
sort of vote of confidence that
you guys are ready today
or that you feel that you're ready today to begin
to take all of that on your
shoulders and deploy
a very real
integration into
the Orion chain ecosystem
Yeah and like it's
everything in business is a trade-off
every decision is a trade-off right
and if you look at kind of what our core values
are from our team
right it's we launched our token
in the middle of the bear market
our investors didn't like it
a lot of people didn't like it but
we chose to do that because
we wanted to have the
ability for the core development team to optimize
this multi-dimensional protocol and staffing
for advantages against both blockchain based
storage networks and legacy systems
that's an active
choice that we made
we caught a pretty big
lick for it
just because of the state of the market
and we probably would be a lot
further along token price if that's
the only core value but what
our wedge is in the market
is we work hard and we're
original and by doing that we
spawned a slew of unfair advantages and
issues over the last two years
sometimes
it's better for us what we care about
is delivering the best product possible
and over time
if token price is what people care about
then that's going to come with it as well
so it's at the end of the day
it's just making sure that
we're authentic, we're original
and we just work our ass off
and then we're just here to deliver value to other
blockchains and that's all we care about at the end of the day
Hey guys, sorry to cut in, I've unfortunately
got another call that I'm a couple minutes
tardy to, so I've got to jump
but Patrick will stay, I really appreciate
the time, Tyree, Hoss, everybody
great having you
and thanks for having me
Have a good work
You used tardy in a sentence, a smile
Yeah, so I guess we are coming up on
just past an hour or so
I want to just talk about next steps
real quick, Patrick, obviously
I'm super hyped that you guys have
you know, chosen a ride chain
as the first sort of
fully realized outposts that
you're going to bring into
Cosmos ecosystem or anywhere, right?
So I'm hyped on that
I think that it's a huge value add
for the ecosystem
What do we expect in terms of
timeline moving
forward, obviously we're in
a discussion period right now, so
anybody that's on this call that has a question
that wants to raise a concern
highly recommend that you
hop in and
go and comment on that post
Hoss, if you can pin it up
top there, that'd be really great
But Patrick, what can we expect
from the Jackal team over the next
several months?
Well, first things first is
a discussion period, have some time to
take some questions, we already see
some edits that we're going to do with besting
those lines, so that's great
for us to give that community feedback and
make changes relative to it
As soon as the proposal's passed
we're just going to come out guns and blades
and just start building, that's
what we do, that's what we're good at, and we're just here to
deliver on our promises, so
as soon as it's passed, we're going to start
the deployment and we're going to
nail them around milestones as they come
Yeah, that's awesome
and I guess the
question we can expect to start using
Jackal's consumer-facing
products in
rough outside timeline
what are we thinking, June, July?
from the date that it passes
under-promise and then over-deliver
so three months at the latest
is by the time that you guys will be able to start using
Jackal on a regular
Would I be surprised
if it's delivered earlier? No,
but at the end of the day, this is blockchain development
so we need to kind of respect our timelines
at the end of the day, so we're looking at
three months at the latest to start
being able to use Jackal on a ride chain
Awesome, that's great, and I see
Hoss, you got that
down here in the
yeah, I was just about to pin it
because you had to put it in the comment
Alright, great, so we're going to
get this pinned up top here
and yeah, honestly
I'm hyped and thank you for taking
time on this Friday morning
with us, Patrick
and obviously big thanks
to Jayden
I just wanted to sort of talk about
the commitment from the ride chain side
you know, in the
I think it's very positive
all the feedback that I've heard from
our community so far has been
positive about this potential integration
so, you know, in
the anticipation of this being sort of
accepted, you know, where you have a
commitment from
myself, from Hoss and from
the ride chain foundation is to make sure
that we are working right away
to begin including
you guys in
conversations
with new developers
as everybody here probably knows
that's familiar with the ride chain, we have
about 20, I would say
about 25 million
in DAO treasury funds that are available
to be used to incentivize development
on the network today, a big
part of that is going to be carving out funds
to specifically
support people that are using
all of the tools available to them, whether that
is Jackal Protocol, Skip API
Orchestration API
Data Streams from
Centropy, whoever it is, right, like anybody
that we sort of partner with and bring into
the loop, we
want to make sure that our builders are not
just sitting around with Cosmoism IDE
and building very simple
you know, standard DeFi
protocols, we want them to build something that is
you know, above and beyond
as we're building up sort of the theme for
this ecosystem, the DAO treasury
really has
the muscle to be able to do that
even at the current sort of
price point, right, so
that's going to be a big piece of it, making sure
that we're incentivizing
people to build things
so for anybody that's in the
AI chain DAO right now, meaning that you are
actively delegating
or validating on the network, I highly
recommend again that you engage with
any discussion that is up over on
Commonwealth, I've slimmed down
the channels on Commonwealth to be
as lean as possible, so people have to
dig through, go over to Commonwealth
in that link that's pinned here, click
on proposal discussions, check
out everybody that's got a proposal that's
live right now, you can see some things
that have been passed in the
history and then, you know, think about
what you want to see in the future
meaning, you know, as we're
really looking to formalize
different grant programming
coming in Q2
you might say, well
I want to launch a
quest for protocol campaign that's
just about, you know, trying to call
people to build certain applications
on a ride chain or, you know, I
think that we're missing a certain
AI service, I want to propose
that and try to get some
kind of pool available
to let hackers build towards
that specific goal, I want
everybody to sort of work together as a
village as much as possible
to take us to that next level
we are DAO driven,
people are used to, as
you alluded earlier Patrick
are used to the team
doing all the work on a lot
of chains, but now is
the time to scale up, to grow
and I think that we can
all agree that, you know, if
we want to be decentralized we have to act like it
you have to sort of take that responsibility
and own it, you are
a part of the network, you are
able to drive decisions
in the network
it will be enriching for you
personally, professionally
you're going to get a lot from it, not
only sort of pumponomics on your
bags, right, you're actually going
to learn a lot about going
through that process of proposing
delivering, communicating
building connections with other people in the
ecosystem and you never
know, like it could lead to a full blown
role for you somewhere, you could
end up unlocking an idea
that makes you a founder in the near future
don't limit yourself
at all, the DAO is here to support
you, jump in, build
and hopefully
when Jackal Protocol passes and it's
available, everybody is using
their file storage solution over
any competitors
out in the ecosystem, so
with that, we are
going to close it out, I'm going to pass it over to you
Patrick, how should everybody
sort of keep up with development
at Jackal?
Yeah, if you want to nerd out,
all of our GitHubs are up in source, including
the Outpost Contract, so
if you're a nerd like us,
feel free to check it out, outside of that
jackaprotocol.com
if you want to get a hold of me
and my guides, jackallabs.io
come to the Discord,
follow the Twitter account, that's kind of the best way
to stay involved and
in a state of
understanding what's going on with the Jackal Protocol
at all times. At the end of the day, we're just
happy to put a Swiss Army knife in the toolbox
of a ride chain, so builders can build really cool
applications at the end of the day, and thanks for
having me. As always, Tyree, thanks for having
us, and yeah,
let's go crush.
Yeah, that's awesome. I'll pass it to you for the last word.
A huge thank you to everybody
for joining us today.
Jackal funded projects is now going to be going
to testnet.yoyo
and they're going to do
a testnet, incentivized
testnet activation
for their IDEO Launchpad
platform, so keep an eye out, follow
yoyo, and awesome passing
it to you for the closing.
Yeah, it was an awesome space,
you know, got some beneficial
material out of it.
As always, I'm a
big fan of Jackal always have been,
so yeah, totally nerd out if you want to nerd
out, but I always like to thank everyone
that tuned in, and yeah, get involved,
totally get involved. One way or another, you can
get involved in the space, so everyone have a great
rest of your Friday and good weekend. Take care,
everyone.