to bring you back into speak. We're going to bring up Joe the co-host. I mean Twitter has been massive massive left out. It's like hold it back to industry bro. It's like holding us back. But that's not fun to talk about. All right. Do a little recap of what's going on right now.
I would say is this is a new defy primitive. This is a new way that perpetuals can be more capital efficient and more efficient. It seems like to me because you get to get so low level in the layer of the blockchain. There's a lot of different
that efficiency and capacities that you can pull out by going this level. And we were talking a little bit about cosmos on why the cosmos is interesting a little bit more about the horizontal scaling of the cosmos ecosystem in IECS and shared security. And we were starting to talk about
that. In particular, to focus back on Nibiru, I wanted to get a little bit more in detail and in depth around whether or not that how you're leveraging IBC and potentially going to be leveraging interchains security in the future.
or is that something like not on the road map? Yeah, and that's why we were asking that question or that line of questioning. So let's dive into that. A little bit more about ICS is it on the road map for Nibiru, how are you leveraging IBC within this and then along those lines?
Gotcha. So I know we haven't really talked about using ICS. It's more of a thing that like I think it from our perspective is helping scale once you already are going to have a lot of transactions or if you need help bootstrapping a value
leader set. In our, like, in the nearest context, we haven't, like, had a lot of trouble with those things, but I mean, I think it's cool tech, basically, but it's not in our roadmap, like I haven't talked to our engineers about using it at all. For Azure IBC,
Definitely, it's kind of a must-have because we need the inflow of circle and then in the future are probably tether just so that you because you quote into the purpose exchange using stablecoin and then our stablecoin is like clover.
a lot of lies by other stables. It's not like a dietype. It's more similar to a frax. So, yeah. So the IBC, I guess, how we would use it is not just for influx of capital, but then also
I guess it would be, I mean this one would be like later, later stage roadmap, but it would be kind of cool to get the other chains on board for in the future providing like an aggregator layer similar to how you use or like the uniswap router or
or short swap, except by IBC. So like let's say a user wanted to swap Adam for Osmo or Circle or something, providing a simplified one button UI that routes you to either swap on Osmosis or Juno, Neb swap.
Crescent, Injective, whatever. But find the user the best pricing and UX and give them that, like, submit the trade wherever it would happen best for the person. So I think that would be a cool thing to build on top of IBC, but it takes like collaboration with the other chains to get something like
That's what neutron is aiming to be is this collaboration layer tacking into IBC to build these types of routing or structure products. Long journey ahead but because once you get the perpetuals up and running
money on your chain, it unlocks a lot of different, you know, delta-neutral positions or even like, like different types of positions, and structured products and indices. Once there's like a really good embedded perp like you guys are building, embedded in NIPC.
Exactly. So you can write just like you touched on. You can do like yield farming strategies, but optimize for different like risk profiles or for focusing on specific like sectors of DeFi you could think of. You could offer like you could like
people use stable point LP positions and like take out a loan against them to trade more capital, which would that would kind of be like getting like when designated market makers on a sex get a loan from the exchange, except you could just do that permissionlessly. And then you can even add things on top of like
You know, kind of a vault that leverages multiple applications. So like you'd say, I'm going to go short one side in the perp and just do a classic basis straight and take the equivalent exposure long in spot and just make money off of funding payments.
That's like a simple strategy you could run at scale with multiple people participating in as one position. So yeah, I think it'll be really cool to do that sort of like those sort of cross-chain apps. What would you say?
So, I think it's the biggest mistake or lesson that you guys have picked up on because obviously this industry is so new and dynamic. It's always really interesting to hear where people tried something maybe big and did something experimental and learned a big lesson from it.
Yeah, I would say so there's a couple that come to mind so one would be Aiming at too many moving targets. So there's this innate difficulty built into many of the core applications the founding team is developing
Between smart contract apps on top, a purchase exchange, a spot, decentralized Oracle network, each of these components are entire protocols developed by a single team usually. So it's been challenging to identify where best to allocate resources to make sure we're
Not just executing the right things, but executing the right ordering of things to be most effective or make sure that it's not shipping way too late. Another one I would say is not using Cosmolism more often than
So sometimes you need a native module and sometimes you need a smart contract. So like I said earlier, native modules are for when you want ultra granular low level control. And smart contracts are a lot better for when you have like you want ease of deployments, flexibility and like, uh,
essentially like they allow you to adapt quickly and rapidly iterate on business logic. So with a more complex DeFi app like Nebrew or Say or dy/dex, I actually think Cosmolism adds a ton of value there because you would spend a lot of time
writing x modules for things. We've found that we spend a lot of time writing x modules for things that we could have shipped faster at production quality if we just wrote them in Cosmolism like day one. And then probably also building things we could outsource.
maintaining an explorer, I know we were just talking about yesterday or today I think was kind of not worth it. I would have, I looking back, it would have been better to just beg Cosmos Station or Minsk and, or another, or another validating team to just do it for us. Like, yeah.
That's super interesting. I'm glad to hear that outsourcing stuff is on the roadmap for you guys. A lot of people don't really see the value on that and they want to keep everything internal. And then from the inside joke on that that everybody of blockchain is a bunch of home stedders and they just want their
their entire chain to be like self-sufficient embedded and just build because builders want to build but like you can move a lot faster with with a little bit of payments and you know paying people for the expertise that they have so like most most change your chains don't have that wisdom so well done
Yeah. And then in terms of you know you guys have the the products, the perps, the swap, we know what do you think? What do you more, you know, I don't want you to you know, incriminate here, but what do you personally more long on?
between the two products. - Oh, that's an easy one. So at least initially the spot exchange is like,
And you, I would say it's kind of meant to be there as like a public good or for convenience, right? Like it's, if you're coming off of, let's say like there, I know, Evo, there's like the seller bridge, there's native USDC, there's Axel, and you could be coming from like different base chains and then probably we'll have support from other ecosystem, besides just
Ethereum a lot more in the future. If you don't have a convenient way place to swap on your chain, this is a little bit counter to App Chain thesis, but I think if you have like 5D5 primitives and you need 5 blockchains to use them, that's kind of annoying depending on what they are.
The spot is like almost a servant to the purpose, which has the mean spotlight like, you know, technical. I mean, it's but wait, it should be thought of as one app. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. The end user, does the end user actually care if it's a different app chain running it if the only difference is just you move to a different site.
I think it depends on the speed. So if you're okay with waiting a couple blocks for the IBC both ways and then doing a swap and then doing a position, versus if you want to just open it or come in
and say, "Let's say I'm holding the collateral that's not detoken, but I can just compute in the front end like, 'Oh, if I sent one message where you swapped minted a stablecoin and then used that stablecoin to come
into the purps, you can just enter feeling like one transaction. If I split it across chains, that it kind of defeats the point. I see what you're saying. So this is just iterations in embedded D5, essentially.
Yeah, you should get through their UX from like vertically integrating certain things. Yeah, absolutely. And so then what would you say? What would you say in five years? You guys are going to be known for.
That's tricky. So I think like, hmm, okay, so one obviously like innovating in the decentralized derivative space and potentially creating a new foundational primitive like a
In the same way that like, Uniswap makes something that like you want to get forked a lot. It's like a sign of success. If we make something that other people want to fork, that would be, I would feel very proud. Then probably providing major contributions to core cosmos and pro like the SDK, Cosmolism and the IBC.
Like that's something when I get our hands in more to kind of like benefit everybody and then I guess risk taking in an attempt to bring about more widespread adoption for crypto as a whole. So a lot of the choices we make from a product perspective are all targeted at like making UX better.
Okay, that's big. And then this might be a little bit of a, this question might be, you know, take it, take it to a different place here, but just in your, you know, from my opinion, and I'm not anywhere near as DJAN is Brian and probably
you guys, but it seems to me like Cosmos is so much more Coltty and DGen that onboarding new users into Web3 is going to be difficult or more difficult in the Cosmos ecosystem. Would you agree with that?
I think that's, I mean, I usually, if you're looking at data, I would say that's just like an objective reality. Right. Like, if, let's see, if you look at, say, the, the BTC pair or ETH pair using the axillary acid, it's all osmosis, even when it
gave a lot higher yield than the equivalent thing on the GLP pool on Arbitrum. You don't see people flocking to it even with double the yield. So there's something about the cosmos onboarding. That's just one example. But there's something about the cosmos onboarding that is off-putting to people. I don't know if it's just
like ETH maximalism or if you have a ramp or more centralized exchange integrations, but what is your gut telling you that if there was one silver bullet, you know, what do you think it is that could either help that or what is the diagnosis of why that might be? So I think there's
two answers. This is just like personal opinion. So one is like providing comparable security to a separate L1 ecosystem. So it's like when I come when I have an avalanche maxi arguing that
So, I think there's kind of addressing it from like the tenderman security level, right?
The other one is just like, we don't have the same level, like, you know, we don't have no-cis faults and insurance protocols and on ramps from like every centralized exchange like you can think of and you know that sort of flow, I think is just like a
Those sort of like core, I mean people forget this but like a most trading still occurs like predominantly on centralized exchanges. So like kind of getting it, making it easier to move off of them. Having on ramps like Kato has been around a while, right? But things like that, where if I'm
Not a user of crypto, but I show up on your website. It doesn't take me hours, hours to use the product. That would be my take on what you have to do. >> That's a point I actually have not heard in a while, but it's kind of easier to forget that.
you know, centralized exchanges are still where we're a lot of the the magic is happening. So that yeah, that definitely is a big problem that still needs to be solved and I don't really know what that's going to look like. But yeah, thank you. Thank you for those those perspectives. That's that's pretty intriguing.
So I guess in terms of partnerships, collaborations that you guys have on your roadmap and that you're looking for in the coming months and quarters here, what would you say is, what are you looking for in terms of partnerships and collab in general?
Yeah, so we touched on earlier stuff using the new tools in the interchange stack, like working with the other Cosmos chains via IVC in any way, with that's definitely something we want to do. But I guess kind of off the top of my head, I would say cross-chain messaging protocols.
that enable, like, DAPS to extend almost like in the same way that you use interchain accounts, but have it feel like that for something that's on, like, Ethereum or Solano or something. This is like some of this, some of this doesn't seem like kind of far reaching the future. RPC providers, right?
That would be helpful. Look at Lova Network. Then anyone seeking a grant or collaboration to build on top of our core product set. Those would be the easy ones. Let's take this to DMs. There's a couple like premium RPC
that we work with, that we've used in the past and that have supported hundreds of thousands of users a day on different chains. So let's wrap on that offline. Sure. And then also, Brian, do you think that they could benefit from what Paloma is doing?
Tariq and Unique are like we were all part of the at one point in time I think we've all worked for volume on the you know on this call I don't know about Jonathan but I you know yes there's probably a play in there too okay all right just just making sure
Yeah, that's an interesting one because once you kind of get this messaging and indication if there is a like you know potentially a tighter integration with messaging you could potentially
abstract some other type of structured product on the Ethereum side that floated down to Nibiru with Paloma. There's some plays there.
Yeah. Yeah, so you get it. Yes. Anybody of the audience that's looking to leverage the the the Nebaru perps and build some structured products.
and still get that utility. There are some games that probably crants available. I would imagine or I could help elaborate from you guys and below what to build something like this.
Yeah, that sounds awesome. And you need just wanted to touch very briefly on the grants program and just kind of how that's set up if it's more of an RFP style or if it's more just open-ended and what that structure kind of looks like. Yeah, but basically the short answers we don't have
have one yet, but we want to do one. So like if someone came with an interesting proposal, I guess we would just figure it out direct. Like a, none of us, I guess in my case is like, I've never been a founder before. So I would have to just like ask someone how to do, how do you structure a grants program? But I don't know.
anybody that might know anything about that except for maybe Brian and the AlphaGo team, we might be able to have that conversation. I think that might make sense. What do you think, Brian? Yeah, maybe. We only work with high quality chains and they haven't lost
So it depends on how many people I'm just joking man. Yeah, I would love to do what you're doing. It's like it's pretty rad. It's a new DeFi primitive. There's so much opportunity here. It's like it's like the wisdom of what to do next. What this kind of thing is actually super experimental, right? So I think like there's like going to be a lot of different
different projects that will need to experiment building on top of what you built. There's going to be issues, there's going to be bugs, you know, and kind of have to get builders to build on top of what you're doing to bring more liquidity and bring more attention to more users. It's kind of like experimental marketing. It's like, you know, each new channel that you go
after each new project that you give a grant to could bring 50,000 users, 10,000 users, no users, or just be a complete waste of time. And you have to go through that process to integrate to figure out what not just, you know, the alpha is like, "Hey, here's this new perps.
going directly to consumers, but then what the N+1 is is like, okay, now that you have this new type of liquidity layer and this new DeFi primitive, what are the next things that you can kind of build on top of it and get really experimental? Sometimes there's really good builders and you want to internal
Lots of things that can be done. I'm kind of ranting now or rambling. I apologize, but yes, there's so many different opportunities that are available here with this new DeFi Provinift. It'll take lots of iteration to figure out what exactly to do, but there's so many things that can't be done now.
Yeah, thank you. Where's the best place to keep up with you guys and what you're doing? Yeah, so we mostly stick to just Twitter and Discord. So this handle @Nibiruchain and then discord.gg/Nibiruch.
So we announced stuff in both places. But we are also pretty responsive with like you can just ask questions in there and like the founders or engineers will just hop in and answer
on the fly. I think what you guys are doing is really cool and Loki I know some people that are probably gonna want to fork you.
Yeah, go get forked. And question on that like timing wise, like you guys are in some flavor of test net, main net, what's timing wise looking like?
So we're on, we did a, we're doing a phase-wise incentivized test net. So if, if for people that did the, the app dose one, it's kind of similar to that, but with different tasks set. So we're on the second phase now, which is like the same chain, but essentially, we put up
announcement on our blog, outlining some tasks, and like instead of just air dropping to random chains, you kind of provide easy ways for people to onboard. Like it doesn't take more than like a few minutes to do most of them, but it's kind of just a way to like make sure you're sending advising people that are like
actual early participants rather than just like dropping it to the hub, which I see a lot. So as for timeline, we're looking to have an initial mainnet of some subset of the things in our roadmap for this summer.
So, like the most upcoming thing for my, like I'm prioritizing is like we want to do an audit with Zellik and probably a code for Rina, like public one. So shooting for this summer, basically. >> That's awesome. Everything goes a lot of people on this call and did
And also, there are some people on this call that run these different Twitter spaces in the Cosmos ecosystem and I'll introduce you to a couple of these, you know, a couple of these Cosmos hardcore groups as well and getting like
the incentivized test that you can get a lot more. People, people, people, you know, kept their wallet or a Cosmos station integrated wallets that already they don't have to download wallets and are pretty Cosmos foolish already involved. And you're an incentivized test that will follow up after that. Yeah, that'd be awesome.
Is there any question that we were open up? There was one person that was here earlier. They look like they left open up for any audience questions. If you want to come up and speak and ask a question, come on up. But I always like to end on this question. Is there anything that we we missed or should have asked that you wanted to talk about or any question we should have asked?
We talked about dynamic optimisation, our work will solution, I think. We just have a couple other features that are hard to cover all in one call, but I think we got the big picture. Jonathan, on that note, should you tell us about your dynamic
optimization and Oracle set. You're I can jump in. So yeah, a lot of this comes from the concepts introduced in in curvy to the crypto pools product. So for background, this was when it was seems like we
a lot of stuff from curves. Now that I think of it. But yeah, this was when curve introduced AMM pools based on a smooth curve with similar benefits to concentrated liquidity bins. So like that, it's when they stopped doing justice table swap and opened up like the tri pool and stuff.
So a lot of people aren't like, haven't read too much into this, but the kind of core points from that white paper and how those pulls work is you swell the liquidity at certain prices so that there's lower slippage. And you also adjust this internal peg.
So Peg is a bad name for it, but it's essentially just a number that lets the AMM shift its own price to a more healthy value based on the size of the trade and then also its relation to an exponential moving average on a reference oracle price. So that's like getting it
too much detail, but the point is you can get lower slippage trades without incurring large losses for the LPs, so kind of everybody wins. So NebriRus concept at a high level is just add a lot of these same advantages, but make them for leverage. So you do an AMM-based
It's a perfect change, but then you add in the improvements of, like, basically, you want to facilitate higher leverage, like, make it safer, allow it to scale with its liquidity. And it's kind of just a different approach rather than just using like a vanilla order book.
That's complicated. Yeah. Very cool. There's another, I guess we didn't get a touch on the Oracle solution, but I think with the general vision,
talked already about how there's a magnitude improvement from UX, just when there's multiple tokens, multiple governance. But I think part of what, when you think of the development flywheel of a layer one, I think it's like, you have the base layer itself.
their core apps on top of it and then that attracts community because there's an actual use case in the apps which then attract liquidity which then accrues more layer back to the base layer. When you think about a layer one, the flywheel has got to start somewhere. We'll touch a bit on this in the future.
layer ones and we're building a lot of these different primitives ourselves. So it'll be more integrated seamless. But it's also, there's a clear reason why not everyone else is doing this because it's a lot of things to tackle all that ones. So hopefully that point sort of makes sense. Yeah, it's like you're kind of hitting at that piece
of if you just make a chain and then you say there's 100 projects building on you but then there's no liquidity like that's not like I don't know that that's the best thing for adoption. I think in more goes the other way like if you have a core like if we just look at like GMX right if you have a core products that like attracts
everybody to it, then you can extend it to supporting spot and adding more complex interactions. So you kind of need to figure out how to bootstrap liquidity first, and then people will build a ton of apps rather than just having a bunch of ghost town apps.
It's tough man right now in the market you you know you have to buy liquidity with emissions and liquidity incentives it is it is like we're working on a deal some what another deal that we're gonna basically to get a million dollars liquidity in a particular decks they're gonna be paying us three million of
a lot of major liquidity. So that's probably the hardest thing for you guys. And other than getting builders on building structure products to provide the flywheel to get more liquidity, it's like how do you get that initial liquidity from these different places? And I'll throw this out there as a suggestion slash question.
How do you guys approach with the fragmentation of kind of like liquid staking? Is that going to be on your roadmap and something you guys tackle or is that like further down the road and you haven't been really thinking about it?
a lot of places are kind of, hey, if we're going to be pulling, we might as well be pulling liquid-staking and doing emissions on liquid-staking versus, you know, the core token. So I want to hear your thoughts on that.
Yeah, that's one feature. I know we don't have any plan right now to build ourself, but it seems like it's kind of easy to integrate with like other chains that offer that service or it's kind of one of the things like if the community is really interested in it, then we'll prioritize it.
over something else. It's kind of how I look at it. But the main initial set is more like perp spot, the stable coin, or comodule, and then probably a natural thing on top of that is lending and vaults.
but that's like getting far into the future a little bit. - Makes a ton of sense. It's, yeah, yeah, yeah. Liquid's taking comes later down the like, I don't have anything else, man. There's any like final like, you know, goodbye, like, you know,
little call out or sign off like we didn't have anybody pop up for questions we had a couple people earlier and then they left but this has been rad like learned a lot I get what you're doing super powerful and you know let's do like a little sign off here
Yeah, I mean, uh, I guess you don't follow us and come check out the incentive ice test net for free money. So you heard it here free money coming through the incentive ice test net get free money through the tasks will be will be sourcing that will probably follow up with an
article on the thread about Nibiru's incentivized testnet and you know they're looking for developers and builders to build on top of the testnet after the launch and there'll be some different opportunities and different pulls of liquidity to help build some cool apps off of.
You need this has been Radman, Jonathan, great meeting, and really appreciate your time. - Yeah, thanks for having us. - Thanks guys.
is amazing. Thank you. Totally. This has been Brian from Alpha Growth. If you are a developer looking for a grant in the Cosmos Ethereum ecosystem, come on through, sign up a profile. We're launching an RFP module last year. We gave over $11 million in grants to
are like a hundred different projects and we're growing every single year so if you're looking for grants for your project come on through to Alpha Growth and on the thanks for everybody for showing up and I really appreciate everybody's time today thanks for coming take care and have a great week bye