Okay, welcome back to another no BS
BS does not stand for black sheep. By the way, we do have black sheep who's coming to be
He was gonna be in the house today. We're very excited to chat with black sheep and it does not stand for
Bathrobe stats, okay. I posted a video earlier
Bathrobe stats was the title BS stands for bull
You know where I'm going with that and by the way BS can be left where it should be left
Which is rodeos where bulls are, right?
But it won't be in this space because we're gonna try well
I mean it might you know, you might see some here and there but we're gonna try to just kind of I don't know
Just kind of take it out take it back to the rodeos
So that's just a quick clarification on my end on what BS maybe stands for folks
We do have some special guest speakers today. I do see
For a ruto in the house and by the way that song for those that want to know is from a very popular in
So right now you have a few different media sources and I always kind of try to keep track of pop culture
That song is from a very popular up-and-coming. Well, it's not even really up-and-coming, but it's an anime. It's called
My hero Academy, which is sort of like this
I don't know. It feels like kind of there's this whole genre of superhero
Type stuff in the anime worlds that is I don't know kind of the kin to the batmans or iron
Mans that people in the US probably grew up with so you can check that out
I always like to stay to like in tune with what's popular and that song was my make my story
Okay, so we have a ruto in the house
Who I'm gonna invite right up because we got some scripto chatter with him
And by the way, Nellie's in the house to Nellie did come out with some stats day
I don't know if there was much to add there Nellie, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about
API sort of deals, you know, and maybe what the significance is of that too
And and I think black sheep will be coming and for those listening to the recording. Thank you so much for tuning in
I hope you enjoy the show
Feel free to share the space with with other folks that maybe you plan to discuss some of the topics that we go over today
I definitely want to bring up
one misconception I think because when it comes to
Uncharted networks nodes kind of have this copy of
Sort of what's going down
Sharded networks, you know, there might be there might be a misconception there that's worth discussing
I kind of covered it in the video I made this morning
But again would love to revisit that topic. We do have Nellie in the house though. Shout out to Nellie Nellie
How are you and thank you for those stats?
That we were blessed with earlier this morning, which I'll pin up actually right now as you talk
Very nice. Thank you for that. And of course, you're welcome
I'm happy to provide it. Actually, I almost forget it today. So whenever that happens and I really forget it just
It's not much work to to get them
So I'm happy to provide that. Okay. No, thank you so much
And I'm just gonna go find them real quick to pit them up. So I was like midway, but yes
We appreciate that. It's all good. If you forget there's never any pressure
But as you if you keep them coming
We're gonna keep kind of covering them out as they kind of as they kind of pop up in the timeline
You know what I mean? But yeah, you had a takeaway from the staff
I don't know if you want to talk about that take away while I go try to find it real quick on the timeline
If you don't mind filling up some some time, but some valuable information to though
It's good. It's you know, it's it's important to kind of track these things. I think so before is yours deli
I've just I've just looked in your like pre-show video. I think you're summarized it very good
I'm also impressed that the burn fees are still
Increasing although the user transactions go down but that also just shows that the depths are getting more
complex the transactions are getting more complex and
For me, it's a really good sign that
Most probably either the users are getting more
The the usage of the depths and the development of the depths is is really increasing and as you said
It might be also with this new trover
Or 12 version. I I've seen you ask like, okay, where are the transactions coming from at the moment?
No idea honestly, but I will try to find out
Getting the transactions. That is not that well, it'd be cool if we could find out like if we're right and assuming that
that correlation between user transactions and burnt fees is not a correlation because
Certain transactions are just more complex and we have more components due to you know
The atomic composable nature of radix
It's sort of like well, which where are the transactions coming from that are creating?
Complex transactions, you know that are like really I think
Making that correlation not a correlation, you know
It's not I mean, you don't have like a sender and a receiver over the transaction
It's not that easy. It's more complex with radix, but I can definitely find out like who is involved
Yeah, so there's always something like
components or affected entities
So I will have a look at those and try to just yeah like match them
To adapt to find out who's behind it
Yeah, no pressure by the way, Nelly
Well, can you tell us about this other thing that you posted because you said at the end there
Yeah, you said adding some personal stats eighty eight thousand six hundred and eighty five calls on Braddock's API
So I was yeah, of course. Yeah, it was just like a little bit of advertising for my new project, of course
But I am curious though if you wouldn't mind maybe you know, just
Exposing I think beyond the veil of like, okay
well, that is an interesting thing to maybe pick apart real quick because
If there was a if there was like seventy thousand last week and now you have eighty eight thousand
Can you kind of explain like what does this mean like more people using this is is more people using your software?
Is this like a stat that could show some health and dev tools created by the community?
I guess that just more people are using. Okay. Yes, I think so, too
I mean, I don't have any figures from like the official gateway API that we could use to compare
But I mean the goal of this radix API of our service is to yeah make those
Analysis and towards the ledger easier for developers
to just build their their own depths and
Seeing this increasing of course means that there's more
Yeah users coming in more developers coming in and you are fetching the data
Which means that they are of course building more for the community
But it also means that it is used more by the community
So I mean this big increase I actually know where it is coming from
So that is actually this address tracker to it from cider
So yes, they are price API endpoint and that is connected to that one
and it just seems that this is the great new tool that everybody really likes to just use and explore and
That means that our calls are just increasing
Yeah, no, it's always interesting digging into the dev infrastructure and by the way
We also did have a segment that we wanted to do with them. Let's see. I'm trying to get black sheep up
I'm trying to get Ruto up
Cuz let's talk about this, you know when it comes to script out is interesting looking at different ecosystems different
I guess, you know the thing that radix markets a
Lot besides Cerberus is script. Oh, and I think that makes sense for where they are with
Right now Babylon just kind of launched so smart contracts
Obviously just kind of came about and you know, you want to get devs maybe into the ecosystem and script. Oh
It does you know, it it definitely has some things that are worth discussing. So Ruto I did get I didn't I did send you a
Which McCall it I don't know if you can see it
But black sheep is in the house and by the way black sheep and an Ellie feel for this
You know stay up on stage to it and hold that mic because we you know
We might just want to throw something at you randomly if you can't if you can't black sheep
I did say I clarified for everybody that no BS
Also means that like hey, we're not saying that no like black sheeps can, you know
Come to the space we're saying bull
You know where I'm going with that. So it's it doesn't stand for black sheep
It doesn't stand for bathrobe stats BS in the way that we market it for no BS racks research space stands for
XYZ so I did make that clear because we like black sheeps
We like bathrobe stats and I just wanted to shut up black sheep who's in the house and Maruto is also in the house
Thanks, Jay. I didn't even realize actually and now I see it
But you don't even see it. I
Well, I just wanted you know, make it now
Yeah, like I said, it was like boiler space to today because we've got like Rauru to who
Who is deep diving into script of a photon?
SDK which I'm looking forward he's his experience and
also Nelly of course her experience with crypto because I think those experiences need to be shout out in the world people listen to
Scripto programmers coders are actually experiencing as like unique in web 3
Yeah, let's yeah, can I just say one thing too because we also we also will be digging into consensus a little bit later
And I think if Nelly can stick around since Nelly is a validator, that would be kind of cool, but no pressure Nelly
So that will come later in the show too
So feel free to stick but we did want to get this scripto segment and and I think you're right man
I think just like okay. Let's take a sec to let this breathe, right? Let's take a sec to let scripto breathe because
Sometimes it's worth letting it breathe. And yeah, we have Rauruto is are we pronouncing that right? By the way Rauruto?
Kind of it's not actually my my real name. That's an I don't know the way
It's like a mother's name, you know who in your mom wants to say nice things or to I don't have to
Well, the actual name is Radish which sound more Indian the Romanian to be honest, but
Well, yeah, cuz I did hear people calling you Radish and all these different things
but we just wanted it we just wanted to understand man, so like
you're with folks you're developing with photon and
What was your experience before I guess Radix like did you develop in a lot of other like blockchain ecosystems?
Well, what's the like what led up to this? And yeah, and then we'll dig into scripto, too
Well, I've been doing I've been programming since I was 10. I'm almost 14 hours. Oh
I have a lot of experience in in web to I was here when
PHP was the new kid on the block. So I'm very old in that matter in terms of
Yes, I was into PHP as well early 2000
I took the first the I learned PHP with a course done at Zen which was
Engine behind PHP and I was very proud of it to be honest
Imagine that the first time I searched PHP on Google I got 12 results which was for me
I was yeah, I'm back then it was prior to the dot-com bubble and everything. So I'm that old
I've been into forest to be honest and that was kind of the first like the first wave of anything
That might relate to crypto because most of the analysis I see right now technical analysis and everything
Is like copy paste from not copy paste
It's actually the the the way people trade the stock market and for XO
It's normal to be like that. The only issue is that those have an economy and a fundamentals I've read that drive it here
There's there's still a lot to grow here in order to actually have something, you know that drives drives
tokens and currencies up and down
Well, okay. So this is what I know about script. Oh like so far like you have an asset oriented. Yeah
Experienced on yeah, I could just say something about that actually guys because actually PHP is object oriented
Well, it started procedural, but it also went to the object oriented
And I loved it. I fucking love PHP when they started the object oriented and
So that's exactly one question I have like when we look at object oriented in our we instantiate objects
Script or with blueprints and the transaction manifest that's that's one thing
I think is very different because I saw on sui not so long ago that everything is an object
But that's that's pretty much what object oriented programming is about it's everything is
Everything is instantiate as object and then you work with that
But then I was like I was like with crypto. It's different. This is not object oriented. It's assets oriented
So it would be nice to have your your your put your point of view
Sorry your your point of view about about this, you know this difference
This difference in the ideas between object oriented and asset oriented because crypto is asset oriented
so from from my point of view a lot of the good things that from the old days have been brought into
Into rust and consequently into into script or specifically working with classes methods functions and so on
Let's say caveat to this or what makes it what what makes script or in particular a bit different is the fact that
big difference between a blueprint and a component which is a component is actually the
Instantiation of a blueprint it doesn't necessarily mean a lot for the program
And it's not like it changes the paradigm in which you program the only difference would be that for you working with
Functions that don't really care about the state of the component means you're actually working with the functions of the blueprint after that
you need to work with the
Instantiated components with some with with an object that already has an inner state has some maybe assets tied to it and so on
So on top of everything that you you know from object oriented programming
You have to put what the protocol enforces which is?
Assets being being passed around in buckets and not only that but
Authorization and proving you have ownership or rights over a certain asset
so instead of putting instead of putting the the that logic within the method or
Function or not instead complementary to that. Let's say the purpose of the ledger would be to also
protect your component from being called when it should should not be called right, so I think you have more control more fine-grained
control over what can be called when by whom and
the requirements for for you can you have even have the logic that allows you to validate
if someone tries to pass in some kind of
Asset to you you only you can you also have the control that allows you to validate it only the asset
It's from a certain address, which is
Really fine-grained control the entire problem
Paradigm so to be honest one of the last thing I'll say is that you'll see it will be very clear to you
once you start playing around with script or no matter how big or small the project is is that
God but very soon after the responsibilities of that because you're playing with people's money
You're playing with people's assets hopes
you know will you're playing with the with the image of the community of the developers that work with so
Everything ties into that and what you're writing there has a fact has a real drastically me as coming from no
Very being the old one in this conversation. I feel that responsibility
It's weighing very heavy on my shoulders whenever I program something then I have a tendency, you know as programmers you usually you usually
Program stuff at our first so you always assume the worst
Let's say and once you once the code or the execution path passes certain filters
It means that the happy scenario is actually in place and you can do whatever you want to do with it
Radix helps with the fact that a lot of these checks are done at the protocol level, right?
But that doesn't take away from the responsibility of the developer to actually
enforce security or let's say
Wood will let's say in terms of calling a certain component
Well, okay, so black sheep I'm gonna sauce it back to you
but I I just need to get three things out of Ruto in this conversation and
You know, we can kind of play ping-pong and kind of go back and forth with different questions
But these are kind of the three things one is your perspective
So I really want this to be from your perspective to
Atomic composability is number one and how it relates to some of the some of the features that
You outlined when we were talking about script. Oh, the second thing is this
The way that Radix is somewhat like deterministic from the users point of view
But in the background it can achieve the result in a more flexible manner than having to be
I'd like to get you to really break into that and then the third thing at some point
I would also because of what you just mentioned like to tackle
I guess what the value is of an open source culture in Radix
So so my first one is this why don't we lay out what atomic composability is and how script Oh, maybe
Like where does the script Oh help atomic composability on Radix does it you know and how so I guess and then black sheep
Feel free to queue up your next question and I I won't forget the other two
Will kind of go back and forth here
So what I would have to say that because there's a there's an answer that
Could cover all three all three questions. Let's see, but oh
That'd be great. Oh, yeah, I mean hey you got the magic pill. You got the silver bullet
I mean go for it man. That's the magic of the stock the food stack of Radix is the magic
Composability everything we're everything related to how you structure your code
Is something that should be very well thought of before you program anything?
To have components talk to each other to have packages talk to each other
which gives you the freedom to
Uh break your your entire code base into
Microservices, I don't know who how many of you come from the web to?
world where instead of having one big model if you have
Microservice which which are like small scripts that only do a certain thing and do it very well
and then you you orchestrate them together into a back-end. Let's see. This is kind of the
The micro service architecture in the web to work, right?
Achievable and to be honest, I think it's the best approach in terms of
building anything medium to large in in
In script of and I can say that now after going through a lot of
back and forth and redesigning
Photon a few times until now to to be honest right now
We are at eight packages which need to need to talk to each other. So
It's it's kind of complex the way it is and to be honest, we we kind of started big I think
But yeah, I was actually wanted to ask you how is it going because i'm in the photom sdk
Um, yeah channel. So I'm glad told us that you're doing that
So that was my question because j something you need to understand is like atomic composability
At a script level is like abstracted for the developer
The developer doesn't need to to worry about the composability. It just has to bill it like legos
uh with the transaction manifest, uh
It's you don't you you don't need to worry about the the atomic composability in the script. Oh
Level at all. It's uh, it's something that is completely right
so so that makes perfect sense and i'm glad that you said that but I still think that
Someone like ruto could just blatantly lay out for people
would be good because I don't think um
I want some folks to realize that there is this nature to radix where atomic
Composability can thrive and what it exactly it is and what it what effects it can create when dapps do
End up being used with each other in the same transaction, right? Yeah, right
Yeah, right, but like like I replied to someone not so long ago like yesterday or something
Uh, he was impressed. I think he was on suey. They did a
Multi-swap in one transaction, which is atomic composability like a flash loan
And I said like look doing a flash loan eth can do a flash loan doing a flash loan on a monolithic
blockchain is by default because you have atomic composability once you
uh have the the the same state the the same they all have the
The state of the ledger so for sure you're going to do atomic composability eth does it eth does it since day one?
But the magic and can you explain real quick why it's maybe exciting with something like radix, which can scale
Thing that's where it gets excited
It's blockchain is limited on this atomic composability with the scale
Because we can see that once we start scaling like solana did recently with the jup
Once it reaches a certain amount of uh of uh pressure
from the network it kind of like
It goes wrong on the ledger blockchain has limitations where radix
Make it possible to do atomic swaps at 18
thousand swaps per seconds on cassandra that's where it gets interesting because
Now we have a sharded network that can scale linearly. So it's huge. It can go it can go huge
And then we keep we retain the atomic composability. So for developer, uh, it doesn't need to worry
Where it doesn't need to worry about shards the developer the script or developer just have to build the logic the business
of his dapp and not have to worry the consensus has to what has to deal with the
With the state and the change of states, but not not the developer in that sense if if that makes sense
No, that makes dude. No, I love it, man
I just wanted to lay that out because one of the things that I would suspect developer incorrect me if i'm wrong
Uh ruto or black sheep, but I would suspect that when it comes to the business logic
Of the ecosystems dapps working with each other
That's where developers have to maybe think right because if if if two different dapps are being used
Well, let's do transaction. Let's hope the developers think yeah for sure
On top of that because we actually had a few conversation on this specific topic, which is
Like in inner business communication. We I have a I had a one or two calls with trope. So
What I can say on on that topic is first of all
It needs to be very clear for you as a business watch your purposes
I know trope doesn't necessarily agree with the fact that we want to enforce royalties and and give
give creators the possibility to
Enforce royalties at the asset level, which means that
On photon for example, if you if the creator decides
To meet nfts and to enforce royalties on their nfts. It means it has to go through photon. That's
It's our solution at the moment to actually be able to enforce
Royalties, otherwise the way a normal nft. We have two types of nft
We have rebel which means you they don't have any kind of constraints and we have
Are enforced, but we have which have enforced royalty
What that means is that you won't be able to trade?
The nfts on other platforms without talking to to photon, right?
There is a conversation that needs to happen within the business, which is what's our strategy and what we want to do what?
Important what is the value you want to bring to the ecosystem or to the business world?
Let's say after that. There is a communication that happens with
Between the businesses we do plan to also support and there is a way to actually have troll for example be able to call
actions on our components and that's why i'm actually still breaking the entire
Code basing to standalone packages which have some public functions which we can expose
The good thing is that using the manifest using the using and using script or you can actually change different type of types of
Business logic native logic that are tied to the native component
So it's not whenever I talk to people from other chains or who or who have experience with other chains whenever they
Hear about the transaction manifest. They don't understand the fact that how powerful it is. So imagine that calling the
Calling a method from a vehicle component can be one line, but there can be
100 other lines in that manifest that do a lot of things not necessarily tied to a specific type of action
or to a specific account or to
A specific origin. It's it's a chain of events of different types, which actually
Shocked people when when they kind of realize the kind of chain they can they can implement
On one thing I need to say maybe some it will help someone
Oh, can I just before before that? Can I just go back to the trove conversation?
Because you mentioned something really interesting and yeah, I totally agree if you can somehow give I guess creators of the nft is the ability for
An enforcement of royalties even on something like trove that were I guess using photon in the original
I think that's the that's like the free will approach of giving creators at least some kind of assurance
Because how trove works is really gangster in the fact that I could see why trove maybe
Wouldn't want to enforce those royalties
Have those royalties being forced still with trove and maybe that is kind of a weird
negotiation type deal between you guys
That might be healthier in the long term for the creators that want to
Run run an nft off of royalties or like run a nft execution off of royalties
So I definitely like the most coming from that the most direct answer I can give you on this is that
This solution will not be for trove specifically
so first of all, uh, it's
First of all, it's important as I said from a business perspective who
Primary concern, you know on open sea
Royalties are optional. So someone might can decide whether royalties will be passed to the creator or not
Our entire approach initially was that we are going to protect
Our content creators because they bring the value to the photo marketplace and if they decide
That the nft will have forced royalty. We need to give them a way to do that
It's it's I think they will they will feel like they don't actually
They won't actually see the value on this part of of what okay, they have the community. They will have everything else. They will have
they will have radix in the back but
Being able to know that once an nft reaches your wallet
You won't be able to withdraw it you as though even though you have it in your wallet
You won't be able to send it to someone else only if you go on photon or there's a marketplace that talks to photon
That's able to take the the nft from your wallet and send it to whoever you want to send it
And in that transaction take the royalty from from that transaction. I think this is
Again, this is a business decision. I'm not saying it's the right way. I'm not saying is the correct way
I'm not saying that people doing it. No, no, I wasn't even asking a question
I was just letting you know my personal opinion because I think if you just eliminate the royalty model completely
Then it's kind of I don't know. It's it's a little bit carl marxie to me like there should be some
Avenues for some capitalism, I think where like creators can still have enforced royalties, but it is gangster how?
Trove is sort of set up to just let people
By the way, i'm not saying i'm just saying it's a weird challenge you guys are kind of facing on this architecture
Just one more thing. I wanted to say our goal is to also allow other people who have
Rebelize all nfts who don't have royalties in fourth
But what we're also working is is on a way to give them the possibility to bring that nft
Through photon and actually add enforced royalties on on existing nfts
Which would mean actually burning the existing nft creating a new one with enforced royalties and sending that to the wallet
From that point onwards will have the the enforced
Oh, okay, so there's a little trickiness to that too then there is yeah there is
It's just it we were asked we need to have on
My responsibilities to come up with solutions for for what people want, you know
So so what would be the biggest challenge with crypto?
Uh about this about this plan that you have
On on this part it isn't because it's I would say 90 percent
To be honest the biggest the biggest challenge I see at the moment and it's something that's going to be fixed
rather soon, I hope and I think
is the readability because
What I want all the developers to understand is that
Once you publish a package and instantiate a component if you don't have
an upgradability logic built into that as in something that can expose the
assets or stay within that component you won't be able to
Upgrading actually means publishing another component that can literally suck the information from the existing one
Um another thing I would recommend is not publishing anything that doesn't have an owner role
I know that in the documentation
There's a lot of places where owner role is actually none, which means it's not owned by anyone
I would recommend to read the best practices
Tutorial from omar who talks about this this particular
Past and ownership role to especially to components to everything you build to be honest because
I'm a fan of controlling stuff because it would give you
Find and gain control about over the actions you want to perform
I think upgradability is the biggest thing because otherwise you kind of have to to build the final product from version one
Which is almost impossible if you ask me
Uh, so depending on how big your project is or depending on what what kind of custom business logic you want to build
I mean, let's say based on my experience i'm
95% sure you'll have problems
You need to fix you'll have uh features you want to add you'll have
Apply to the existing logic to something you thought was good. But actually the market is telling you it should be different
And that means you need to upgrade your component. So if you don't think it's literally something you have to think of
Think it from version one. It's very important and i'm trying to tell
So i'm i'm telling this every developer I talk to because otherwise you're you're kind of stuck with with the component that if that
Doesn't export anything and you won't be able to actually bring your your
Users data into new components in the future. It's very important. You
Oh, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, uh black sheet. I was gonna ask a script. Oh question. Yeah
Okay, so I have like a broader like landscape script. Oh question because maybe we can like start from scratch here
Other ecosystems that i'm watching i'm noticing that the dev experience can change
Can improve, you know, you have edsl and dsl and all this
Kind of witchcraft going on to improve the dev experience when you look at scripto in this stack
I guess i'm curious on how confident um you feel as a developer ruto
That scripto is like solid for the next. I don't know 10 years without
Dev experience improvements that come outside of rdx works
On radix. Do you see what i'm trying to say? Do you want me to ask it a different way?
Okay, what I can say is I can compare it to
Other stuff that has been launched in the past and from this comparison looks very good
I think at this point I don't see
I don't see a business logic that you want you would want to implement that cannot be done at this point
The next versions will will bring will be maybe
Well, I think it will scale existing logic rather than implement new one
It will maybe improve control over assets. It will improve. I don't know maybe
From even from the feedback I give other ways to create proofs of of ownership of authorization
The only thing that personally I think should have been more emphasized and I told this to matthew is
There are certain limits that you need to be aware of
Specifically in the size of the manifest file on the size of the
Of the package you want to publish. There are some tweaks in terms of
The development build of a package versus the the production bill which is something I encountered which
Have to be fixed but it's not something you cannot overcome
usually in the in the past you would have
You would have this kind of scenarios where you you'd hit a wall and there would not be a way for you to
Get past it without you know a new version or you waiting on someone to prioritize your need
I haven't reached. I haven't had any issues until now that I could not overcome. I I can tell you that
That's really that's really cool, man. I've actually heard that similar sentiment too
and I you know, I i'm such like uh
I don't know. I just feel sometimes that there's always room for like new and like new niches to be built in crypto
That may surprise us new standards to to come in at me
Um, but yeah, it seems like everything that's been done or everything that's been popular
Has really been thought of it when it came to
Next big thing that will allow us I
What was that? Oh, it's cute. Okay, this is kind of interesting. What did so this is the next big thing?
Um ruta is about to say so what do you think it is?
Like I do actually I told you
From me right now the possibility of having a subscriptions type of
feature built natively or maybe
Let's say on top if it's not player zero, maybe layer one
I mean not native but at least immediately above native
Should be a way to actually create
And this kind of recursive payments, which okay, even if they are not fully automated at the protocol level
The same way you have at the moment authorized depositors, I don't know how you from how familiar people are with with it
Is like you you know in the wallet you have an option where you can choose to
Only accept tokens that you already have in the world, for example, so you're not getting spammed with other
I gotta turn that on by the way. Yeah, I gotta turn I already have to turn that that on man
That's crazy because that blog's only like what four months old or whatever
But yeah, I already got to figure out how to turn that feature based on that
I was saying that having an authorized
Withdrawer or something some some kind of option that would allow me that I I can create in webto some kind of cron
Or something that happens every month where I did not 10 weeks from your account
Right and it will it will function as a subscription, right?
It will not require you to sign that transaction once you approved me taking out 10 xrd from your account
I should be able to do that even if the trigger is from webto. It would be very good and
this will help a lot with is
a lot of the economics in the in the
Community will will grow because of this because there will be people who will be able to support
Certain people from the community that either that bring value in different ways
Support programmers content creators. I don't know project
Yeah, it's like what's going on with vacuum like exactly
But I think that's one of them by the way
Oh for sure. I know I agree with your uh thesis there, but I guess I want to ask another question on that
So will you have to have enough?
Um for a subscription, for example, I don't actually need to like have enough on let's say a debit card to
Show that 12 months i'll be able to pay each each month
So you're saying that this would be more like a real subscription where you're just authorizing someone to take
enough funds for each month of revenue per se
Yeah, I think you're you're authorizing the same way a subscription works right now in in web2
you're authorizing an intent rather than authorizing
actually proving that you have
Money for a certain amount of time, right? If you don't have the xrd in the account next month
You'll receive I don't know
A mail or I don't know push notifications
That will tell you in the next seven days your subscription will be
I don't know suspended if you don't deposit an xrd or something
so, you know, it needs to be a first step towards
a normal kind of subscription level which is
You know a very useful mechanism in the in the world at the moment
already in place in other
Is it is that a model that?
It's being worked on. I mean a lot of people talk about
Adding a lot of people are working on it. I don't know. I haven't seen it though
to be honest what I usually want brag about in terms of what we want to do with photon and with with radix in general is
We our aim is to be as much as possible web3 product
90 percent web2 with some
Everything we do at this point. We are trying our all of our solutions are mainly
Is it this is this worth storing?
The information within web3 if it's not we don't necessarily say okay
We're not going to do it. We what we're actually trying to say to do is if we store it
Will it help us in the goal?
You know in in our intent to become as much web3 as possible in the upcoming years
I don't see very soon. I don't see very soon a point where we'll completely renounce web2 because every
Every request that that's happening online right now is centralized. It goes to dns resolve, right?
So you cannot I don't see it happen in the next 10 years
I don't see a way for us to actually become fully decentralized
every technology or every product that
Not every product to be honest. We as photon we are trying to push web3 as much as possible
Because we believe in this this this decentralized model a lot
No, yeah, so so okay. So there's a couple of things I still want to get breathed out because when we say what is scripto?
There's kind of this interesting thing there, right? There's like different layers to scripto itself. You hear
Terms like rust you hear I think it begins with an l
Language that it's right. It's like cool
I'm gonna find what i'm talking about because I know I know that aspect of it, but there's another
There's another thing I wanted to mention. Let me find that though. But basically what is scripto?
Can you just explain what scripto is again?
framework built on top of right is it's
dedicated set of of cargos that
build code that will run on the ledger, but it's rust based everything related to to the code is rust related ownership to
everything you can think of
structures and what is and and what is like going on with rust because it feels like
Rush mass made. Yes. Okay. Yeah, so you're throwing in some
Yeah, some some deep street knowledge there
But can you kind of explain the flow of rust and blockchain because it feels like everything is going
I think the relation is better between rust and c because everything that's out there is c based
And when go for example, I don't know if you
If you guys are familiar with the goal when when it appeared and they bragged a lot about concurrency and that kind of stuff
And uber implemented it and they are very fond of it. I kind of had a feeling that I missed the
missed the the wave with that one, but when rust came in and the fact that rust
Gives you let's say the same
Almost the same because you cannot say is one-to-one with c but it's it's uh, an extension. Let's say of the c language
It enforces you to not make the errors that on in c you would
very easily make especially with memory allocation and
Not letting variables dangle around and not not solve them or not handle them in the correct manner. So it's a
Business version of c that you can use to actually build a powerful product
I'm very fond of rust to be honest and we chose radix prior to knowing that rust would be the
the the backbone of script and once I found that out it was
Yeah, it's definitely the way forward with rust for everything. Everyone is writing in rust nowadays
I know big companies who are have
Internships and they have all this they are building
Bring as much people into into the development world and they start with rusting
so based on your based on your
Experience, how would you see we could actually?
talk to rust programmers about script or and
And because it was a funny thing that on twitter recently
There was avant who replied to a guy to a developer
Uh, and he showed the picture of like, you know
You had on one side you had the script or code on the other side
You had the solidity code of uniswap and he was saying like oh uniswap you need
thousands of lines of codes and with script or you only need
About 200 or 300. I don't remember what's on the picture
but the point was that it was a lot easier to do it with a script or but the the reaction
of the developer was actually oh you're trying to
You you're trying to to to block us to do the things we want to do, you know, it kind of got the opposite
idea of what script or was supposed to uh to to bring on the table from based on this picture, but
Obviously we talked with uh, we replied to him and we explained to him that it's not it's not about restriction
It's not because you you make any uniswap with 200 lines of code instead of 700 or 800
It doesn't mean you're restricted in what you can do
yeah, so my question is um
How can we can how can we elevate that?
How can we bring that on the table when we talk to rust programmers and um, how do you see yeah?
How can you explain that script or ease?
Easier and you do need you do make a lot of um work with uh less lines of codes
Uh, can you explain that to whoever developer is going to listen to this and be like, okay
He doesn't know script or but understand that
Uh script doesn't need so much as other areas
Do you understand? Yeah, you know, I got it. I got it. I got it. But what I can tell you is the following
I don't know special breed of people
Yeah, it's it's very difficult to talk to them, you know
because initially when we when I was very young for example and in the internet and
Programming was kind of new and up and coming
Uh, you were actually doing it out of vocation. It wasn't the money wasn't necessarily there. It was
You know, you know what i'm saying? So you have to understand
You you have to understand
What kind of people go into the programming world and what kind of people you want?
in your in your community because
I have an it company and I have also a pastry shop and I keep telling the guys at the pastry shop
There are clients that you want to have and there are clients who you want the competition to have
Whenever we're talking about the programmers you
Programmers you have to I I don't necessarily target
Programmers per se and even when I hire people I hire people not programmers
Skills can be obtained if the the right mindset is there if someone wants to see
things in a bad manner or
He's very opinionated in a way. I don't think it's it's worth convincing him to to do otherwise and there's also
You know the bell curve effect the two percent the the people who the pioneers will come afterwards and then the rest will come
Making radix or making the products on a radix or the people people who have
time willingness and sanity, let's say
They I think this kind of people need to come in because programmers will follow
I'll give you the the most basic example one of the best scripting language
Scripting one of the best scripting languages in the world is is ruby and twitter is built on ruby. It's a very powerful
scripting language the community was
The community of ruby developer is rather small, right?
And because of that there's it's full of mercenaries people who come in and and work for the highest bidder
It's literally what it what it is
now if we create a huge community of radix and if we focus on bringing value and bringing products and bringing a lot of the
benefits of a decentralized
Ecosystem into practical examples in the real world rather than comparing and trying to confuse people with
They will see the value and they will come by themselves. I don't think and i'm usually the kind of person who
Uh leads by example, I prefer doing I prefer building something people becoming
interested in me trying to explain it rather than going directly and and and sell and
Because we've talked about this several times, I mean it's not just
Scripto that attracts developers and I agree that you can't sell the unsellable which I think is
Or what you're talking about ruto
But let me also drop this in because I hear from developers and software engineers that radix
Is something on their radar? It's just to the network effect is too small and liquidity is too small right now
However, they're watching it. They want to see where it goes and then they'll probably extend whatever they're building to it as
Grows, so I think your sentiment there is spot on in a way. It's just like well, there is some things inherently interesting
still like authentication enables a lot of use cases that I don't know if it does on other architectures and
You know some of the things that you can actually do with the tokens like even badges for instance is
A really interesting. I would just say token standard
You know, it's unique. It's unique. I had a conversation with my cp fan
And and when he heard the fact that you have control over
The withdrawal process the the deposit process you can use it as a authentication or
authorization type of so the utilities around an nft and
For him that was you know
For everything else most of the other things he kind of had found an equivalent in in icp, right?
but when I talked about nfts and and the fact that it can be an asset a badge it can be
It can be fine-grained until the certain a specific address of an nft or a local
Or local id it kind of he kind of you know
sat down and started listening
Well, here's the end goal right it's like for me
I have this thesis that i'm i'm literally thinking uh in my head about radix which is okay if we were going to
Switch over all of the you know payment processing, you know solutions
to some kind of dlt or blockchain it would have to be
And then I think about this crazy future where yeah, and once in the first transaction with a customer
They do get a loyalty program with a badge because there's no friction to them knowing that they need one
And if it's dynamic over time with the relationship with the customer you can really create
uh an effect where upon the first payment with a customer they received the
You know loyalty program essentially that evolves with their
relationship with a business, you know, yeah, I I think about that as like that's why i'm saying that practical practical
implementations of real life
human activities in into radix would help with this because
As I tell my programmers if my line of code as a programmer doesn't produce anything useful
To anyone on this planet who is a technical who doesn't know anything about technology?
Then literally my my work is useless at that point
So my my goal is not to be the smartest that
Proves how many stuff he knows that how many things he can do know my goal is to make
To take everything I know my knowledge and to make it useful to people who don't know
I don't know tech savvy and that kind of stuff. That's that's what my goal is as a developer if we as a community
uh as a community as as the pioneers in this world are trying to
Bring the things people are used to but make them in a web3 and radix way
I think that will help and that will literally be bring new businesses into the
Into this world where developers can come in and offer offer solutions because yeah, they have to be
like well then should like what do you think about the landscape of dapps because
For me, I feel like as I look around
There is still this kind of um, okay
Let's still develop the dapps that we've seen in other ecosystems and that's normal probably
When I think about like well
A lot of this stuff has already been done and there's kind of a place to do it
So I think the way to break through the noise
For some if radix was to break through the noise would have to be tackling stuff that only radix to do
Which is ironic to me because I think that there's a certain level of scale sometimes that some of the ideas
Like radix as a network almost needs to achieve
The first thing you have to do is implement what's a standard currently in the industry, right?
So that's kind of what's happening
Maybe at the moment where people are just trying to bring bring in existing solutions from other chains
to actually meet the standard let's say but
The the true value will be seen afterwards when you'll be able to scale them and to grow them and even you know
Have them communicate to each other in a scalable way
right, so for me the the journey and then the curve of of
People developing stuff is pretty pretty normal and to be honest
Faster than I expected to be honest once once crypto was was launched
But this is also due to the to the fact that script allows you to build
A lot of stuff in relative a few lines of code
It's necessary to in a way. I was just thinking about that as you said it because like you need these existing standards
To almost be on this new radix
And that and like you need to you know, not just catch up but also establish those existing standards that lay the groundwork
Because I think a lot of this stuff just lays the ground like I always talk about gaming laying the groundwork for real world assets
For example, like in a weird world
And I think we live in a weird world where a lot of the infrastructure that goes into gaming
Blockchain gaming is probably laying or even just digital assets in general. It's probably just laying more groundwork
But it's harder because you have existing legacy systems that have
At some point you have to do it what apple did with uh with the mmon chips. So
At some point you have to
It's like yeah, you just have to share things up
Okay. Well, okay. So black sheep. What else are we kind of because I think with scripto there is this thing
Authentication, but I I feel like i'm missing something or maybe i'm steering the combo
In weird ways here. So black sheep if you have anything, um too because I I do want to touch on authentication
A little bit more. Um, I think that there is a difference there
Um, but if you had something to feel free
Well, no, I think you you respond with the questions. Uh, i'm thinking as well
notification badges all the uniqueness of uh scripto in general
And uh how we can articulate that so i'm even thinking myself to to start programming even though
programming again, even though my life is not really
Um really sad for that to sit down and spend 16 hours on the screen
Looking at crew. It's not for everyone. I can tell you that
It's usually you know, if you're not doing this for the money
It's usually the the type of thing that chooses you it's a vocational type of thing, right? So rather than you choosing it
One thing that I can tell you which is complementary to you we're talking about the the gateway api
So later and to be honest, I think that's where
That's where at the moment things have to be shaken up a bit
Uh on medium to i've told this to both
The the things that currently up and then also, uh, the things that are currently
Um, I don't know how we use what's your knowledge in terms of the gateway api and what you can do with it
It's literally no way of you assume assume. I know nothing
So and that way people that know nothing can hear too, you know, and maybe I do know nothing
But i'm just trying to hide that fact
Yeah, can you tell us about the gateway?
Feel free man. Absolutely what I was or what would
There's there's a bit of headache or of a complexity you need to add on the front and because of right now the gateway api does
Does enough let's say in order for you to actually be able to crawl the existing data
and and display the the complicated part comes when
You're building your own components. You're creating states. You're creating key value stores
I don't know if you know again
I'll assume you don't know key value stores are entities which have their own address and need to be crawled
scanned separately, let's say
And what this leads to is you hope you have your business logic implemented in script or which results in custom structures
Of data right and in the front end in order for you to display that data
You have you reach a point
If someone will be ever interested i'll show you the the chaining type of events that happens where you need to do
A lot of calls in us in a in a structured matter in order for you to get the data
From the gateway api because one call to the gateway api won't give you everything, right?
Every endpoint has its own purpose and what you can do is
chain multiple multiple calls to multiple endpoints to actually aggregate the data to something that you
It's useful for your edge case for your for your business case, right?
and what I was suggesting to people is
Ideally, there should be a way for me to be able to extend the gateway api with custom endpoints
Which are specific to photon or to troll for example, which will also allow me to to cache those responses. So
next calls in order for them to reach the
Gateway api endpoint it will actually end up on my server and it will not leave myself. All right. It will also help with speed
Extending the gateway api to something that medium and large apps will need in order to not have
You know huge lines of code written in in the front end just to to to aggregate the data something useful
So it's something that should be
Oh, sorry. That's it. That's it. There's nothing new. I want to say something that they are aware of and hoping they will
Maybe at least offer a solution
Yeah, there's a new business. There's a business that uh, recently tweeted about rpc rpc roads
Wait, is it grove because grove and another one. Yeah, another one is grove and i'm trying to look for it now
I don't know what it's grove. Yeah, but it's a second one. It's
Um, but but this is just diversifying some would you say critical infrastructure?
Robert oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. No, it's grove. I think I think that's the only one
No, my question. Let me repeat my question because uh, it's different
I'm i'm asking is this kind of are you bringing up this kind of like concept of diversifying critical infrastructure?
core apis which kind of do the the most basic type of
Uh functionality in terms of fetching data, but most of the projects will actually have
Some kind of custom logic they will want to implement, right?
Um at the moment they can do that with this endpoints
but a step further will be
a tool for you or a solution that will allow you to
Build your own microservice or small back end or some kind of serverless function that you can build your
crawling mechanism when you're scanning mechanism into it, which in the end will call that that
Those core apis the benefit to this is that instead of having that business logic in the front end
It can be in the back end where it can be cached
So you're extending critical infrastructure. Yeah, just just two seconds just to say I found it. It's now
Now no, it's time to start the party and reveal the secret. We launched our radix node api on mainnet
So that's the guys the also
Uh, are they is it like uh, now the credible thing or is it just um, you know
What do you know it's credible. I mean it's uh, it's no no it's where where's the source where was the uh,
Endpoint radix dlt. Oh, okay
I think there will be good solutions for people who want
Who don't want to maintain their own gateway api node, right?
That's kind of their purpose
Okay, the goal would be that you actually want to
You know build on top of that and again
I'm talking about medium to large project because if you just need
You know small native functionality you can play around with the manifest with the endpoints. You can
You can solve your your problem, but
There's a standard at the moment specifically when when you know, you're competing with other other products that
Website and so on right now. I know google is punishing if your website loads in below 0.0
About 0.3 seconds. Well, well google is always me
But you know, that's why we're here. Listen, I wanted to ask you this though because authentication seems rather unique
Just being able to think ahead here, you know, just giving different people
I guess different roles or different levels of clearance on adapt
Is how I understand authentication, but there's probably things i'm missing
Can you kind of go into number one if this is unique because of the architecture or because of scripto?
For radix and other ecosystems. Is this something that feels a little unique to you? Can you explain kind of where?
No, no, no the solution even is the solution is proper to to to radix
So the the way they they built it is they they switched from a seed phrase type of
account to a persona type of account right where
Whenever you restore your use the mobile wallet and you restore existing
Accounts you have the possibility if you have for if you use for example 10 accounts on that
from from your wallet you have the possibility to create multiple personas and
Actually find green the access for each persona to each account
So you might have shared which is like, uh, can I just say this word here?
I digital this is like radix's digital identities solution big dent. It's baked in but yeah, keep keep flowing. Keep going
We're using that at the moment on photon. We actually trying to take it a step further because in
in photon our goal is to also be able to
Create for the the assets you create for photon
You should be able to create badges where you control access to studios to projects and collections
And even further you can control the type of actions they can perform
for a specific collection or for a specific
Project or studio and you also have something which is pretty cool is which is the possibility to recall that badge
So if you want to take so if you want to take someone
takes if you want to take someone's access to a certain collection or a
Or a studio you just have to
Recall the badge something that they cannot do. They will have a badge in their wallet
They won't be able to burn it. They won't be able to pass it
They won't be able to anything anything with it
But you as the one who actually gave him that badge will be able to recall it if you want to
Take away. He's that you can sell
So this really enables tokenization as this comes up a lot on our space
If you want to if there's a dap that's actively receiving, you know some kind of revenue and xrd
basically through the sale of an nft that has
The authentication to receive that revenue
Basically, you can give them almost that revenue of a certain dap or a certain piece of software, correct?
Yes, it has to be you have to build this logic, right?
So this is something that is more on the side of the business logic the way you would want this to happen
I'll give you an example right now for us when you create a studio within photon
uh, you you will be using
You will be choosing a certain account from the persona you're currently involved in with right and in in that account
We're going to send you a badge now. Um, sorry, I forgot where I was going with this one second because i'm too tired
I know it's all we were talking about tokenization
Sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah authentication selling a dap
So that account will be also used as the default account when someone want mint nfts on your behalf rather than
Deciding to use so let me give an actual example
I'm creating the studio and i'm inviting you as someone who's
Should be able to meet nfts in my studio
You could very well say the business logic can let you meet nfts
From the studio and put it on your account. But the current logic we have at the moment is whenever I create a studio
Uh, my account becomes the default destination for minted nfts the default
destination for fees and royalties and so on so
You can find where all this logic but scripto is the one who let you do this and it will help you enforce this, right?
Oh, wow, so basically you could you could almost give someone like an nft mentor could almost give like hey
Any collections that mint on our service? We're gonna give you a lifetime
Well, let me just throw this at you so you could almost give like a lifetime pass to someone be like hey
Any any collections that mint on this if you have this lifetime pass you'll get at least one piece of all those collections
Anything to be honest, so there's anything you can think of can be built with scripto
It's with great power comes great great responsibility. This is the
well, that's the last question then we'll shift over here to consensus and stuff because um
There's a couple of things that I just wanted to get out with open source
I believe like there's native pools, you know
The rdx works has there's a few natives native things with a high degree of security assumption
But as developers develop more
I guess non-native things and they spread in the ecosystem
That's where I could see open source being at least an important
On the disclosure level like hey
Has this been open source versus not open source and we kind of touched on it last week before dan hues came in
And I wanted to rift with you on that because I don't know if photon is going to open source or not
And I have no judgments towards, you know closed source
But when it does come to looking for the you know, if you say scripto is like god, there's great responsibility great power
What's the landscape look like now and how do you what would you like to see in terms of open source culture moving forward?
There's definitely a a place for open source projects now
For us, for example, as I told you the last time we were one of the few proper the few the first projects we had
In radix was the stream radix stream all that were that was also
Not open source, but we had
An audit which came in and actually validated though only
The only threat we considered at the moment, which wasn't actually a threat. It was kind of
worst of the worst of the worst case scenarios that we had at that moment something that never
Was exploitable, but it was uh, it was something in that now
to be honest again, the discussion will be
A business decision, right? Uh photon will not be open source because
ip involved let's say proprietary
I don't know what else to say at this point to actually that there's no way no, no, that's fine because
You know if you're good will intend to be honest the fact that we're here
For three years and we we had nodes in the beta net
We have nodes in the in the main net we build it. We build a mobile wallet when there wasn't one
It's actually me and blood where who are you know?
Who are the the actual audit on what we do as being you know, the the
Yeah, and that's what I always say when I bring it up too. I always try to say no judgment
Because like there's there's obviously different views on this topic
But I do think when uh certain infrastructure maybe spreads
A lot and it's I don't know. It's just like it can be very competitive for an ecosystem to have an open source culture too
Different stuff can spread a lot quicker
So I I definitely see for certain things but yeah for dApps like what you guys are doing
It's just something to note too. But one thing I can tell you though. Yeah
the goal is once once photon will be on stock net and
We are we are preparing for mainnet to be honest most of the most of the people who try to
Contact me or had questions regarding script and everything
Even though okay, the the code isn't it is not open source because it's our own
Custom logic we're trying to enforce every every principle that was using there
It's something i'm willing to share with anyone that wants to implement something. So, okay
I won't be able to give you access to the repo writing in github, but the knowledge I have is available to everyone
The same way I was helped by the by rdx works and other people in the community
I'm not going away in either mean or blood and there's not you won't ever hear from us something
I won't tell you because it's you know our own discovery or whatever
No, yeah, it's a way of compensating for not having everything open source
So feel free to stick around for this combo too because we might have 11 minutes more because I have another cold
But i'm here for another 11. I mean, I mean you can also
You can also change your mind in a few years time. You don't know maybe maybe for now. It's pretty good for that
It's okay, and then later you don't know what can happen, you know, so even parts of it can be open source it's again
I completely get it that you want the first
Position here and and I think photo is bringing a lot in the nft scene on radix
I'm very excited about trying to deliver a polished product. So the
the parato principle is very
This thing and people's gonna be like I can do all of those stuff. It's like what how the fuck did they do that?
You know, it's like what is this? What is this sorcery?
You know, yeah, I think that's what it is. I think photo is gonna be huge
I'm really looking forward your product guys
Really good. Thank you. Thank you so much to
That was awesome. Thank you for having me so much intel about crypto
Thank you. Yeah, man, you're welcome back
I always say this to guests that give a lot of intel
Feel free to always come back anytime that you just want to jump in just request that speaker button man
Because you're just you know, you're part of the no bs research fan
Okay, so so black sheep, how do we set this up because there's a couple of things
first of all, you've been kind of you were on the twitch streams with dan very early and
I just kind of want to ask you this. I know that you know
Um, I don't know if you want to call it a revelation
But at what point were you like putting the puzzle pieces together?
Okay, i'm seeing what's going on. Yeah
Do you and can what were those puzzle pieces in terms of consensus?
Can we kind of rift on that for a sec too and anything else that you want to mention? Yeah
Well, the thing is I don't know. Um for me, uh pierce with this podcast
I mean it doesn't seem much and i'm
I'm one of those guys who's going to watch the podcast and all the amas the tech amas with uh with
dan and pierce talking and for an hour an hour and a half
And this is really what is important. Uh, it's to to listen to them
Because that's how you learn a lot about the connection in radix and how things are working together. So
Uh, the transaction manifest alone is interesting
Crypto alone is interesting
But then you add up you you connect them together, you know, and that changes the view
Of everything. Uh, I thought I knew about
About about later technology or at least databases
Coming from web to php my sql. So I have some background in that
I'm like there. It's like yeah
listening to those hours hours of of pierce and dan talking and I think uh, it's a big shout out to pierce to
Being very articulated about the technology and I think it's a this information that is free to
To to everyone it's on youtube. It's on the radix website
And I think if you if you digest
Um, that's what that's what got me, uh more and more into radix in my revelation
To to realize that shit. Holy shit. This is this is getting real here
This is this is unbelievable. What's going on because you connect the dots because if you don't connect the dots
And people are just going to talk about one thing
It can be interesting. It can be something but if you if you connect the dots and connect them together and work
Then you realize that everything is connected if if the if the transactions are native intent
Uh on radix, it's it's not just to make a nice transaction manifest thing
It's also for the consensus to be able to scale
That's why those transactions are where they are on radix and they're very different on radix
That they are on utx u uh e utx. Oh of cardano, for example, uh, you know, it's different
There's a reason why but you can't just take the transaction manifest and think oh, yeah, but it's just a bit different
You know, well, it's it's different. It's very deep. It's my thoughts
Yeah, I guess like where where something was interesting to me is just learning about sharding
You know and just like dlt versus blockchains. Yeah
because when I realized that you know, um
And and like you randomly get kind of assigned to those to those shards
It's just interesting like
The more the more shards that you kind of validate the more processing power you need
Yeah, and I don't know if this is gonna make sense
It's kind of like this dynamic that makes radix interesting because you can have a small raspberry pie and only validate five percent
The network or have like a supercomputer and validate
A hundred percent. So there's a inherent nature of uh, this concept i've heard
Called inclusive accountability where you can just have different
Just all different software
Or sorry different hardware requirements
Being able to yeah being able to get it inclusively
Yeah, again, the hardware requirements is something
Have you know, it's not it's not like I think good point good point
Also, yes, like eight gigabyte ram
That's but yeah, but what's the the difference then to me is
Maybe is it the backup of nodes that keep the data? Well, uh, um, yeah
Because there's like the there's nodes observing a shards
A shard without having to actually be doing work on that shard that keeps almost like this layer of protection
Do you see what i'm trying to say? Or does that make any sense? Yeah, it does make sense
What could I say? Um, the thing is is like
Um, yeah, how could we say this?
The thing is it's with seborist it's like yeah
No, but it's so much, you know, it's so much and i'm trying not to say something
Oh, yeah, no free man. I mean we'll we'll be doing many of these this only episode 15
So check us out by episode 30 and we'll have this down
But yeah, it's kind of something that i've been digging into recently is just like the real
Yeah, okay seborist server, you know, it's it's a it's a monster to tackle when we talk about consensus
But I think that there's this dynamic here at play
As the network has more throughput you sort of see that
Um, it's just like it's network as output
We are doing linear scaling all that but there's so much assumptions
You need to have to understand that we are doing that radix is doing it completely
not the way that a normal database would do for sharding and
They use the word sharding again, you know
Yeah, because you saw my video, right? Yeah, I throw out a couple of the things I said in my video. So
There's a few things I want to lay out here
You don't pick a shard you randomly are assigned to it. That's a
For the later points you can't and you can't really say that you don't want to validate
Like shard x because that would damage your reputation
Also known as uptime and that's how we pick who we want to choose as validators because you can go on to the dashboard
The radix dashboard who has who has uptime who doesn't?
And then there's this other thing that I think you're hitting on which is okay unsharded networks for sharded
There's a preconceived notion here in an unsharded network. All nodes have a copy of everything typically
Yeah in in a sharded network, not all nodes have a copy of everything typically
The likelihood of losing data in a sharded network is higher but practically it seems
um, like this isn't really a problem with radix because again
You and i'll read this too you start with a small network with like low throughput
And then all nodes pick all shards. So 100
All the nodes basically have a copy of everything at that point
But once throughput increases node count increases and data splits up
But you still have replications on like a good amount of the of the nodes
So more nodes actually have the data than nodes currently validating a given shard
And then this was a question that a software engineer
Asked me and I had to find out the answer and I had to go back to them and they said okay
Now I see I see how this works
And it's basically around like a catastrophic incident
so even if something catastrophic happens in a certain shard and all data history is like
Um forgotten lost whatever the current state is preserved
uh, what I guess matters more is really
Integrity of the current ledger versus this data availability debate
Yeah, and because you have more nodes that are basically observing shards than shards
Uh that this this actually provides the extra layer protection and I went back and forth with dan on twitter on this
Uh, and he said some stuff too and i'll try to find those tweets because he's hinting at these extra layers of protection
And i'm trying to just get at this basic core thing that I realized which is like, okay
there is a preconceived notion because certain uh, people view sharded networks as having this as a vulnerability versus um
Uncharted where every node has a copy of everything
And in radix, they really engineered uh with serverless and by the way last phase people should listen to it because dan hues was here
That there is still this like assumption
But he also gave a pretty good criteria
When he thought that we could stick a flag in the ground and say that that assumption turns to fact
And that's why all these tests he's doing are so freaking exciting
Because it's kind of getting closer to the point where we can say, okay serverless does have an underlying assumption
And that assumption was clearly or assumptions maybe is the right, you know plural to use there
But there is a criteria which he laid out which I you know, don't know off the top of my head
I think he said I forget like 20
Anyways, we can look at that space bring it up next
Week, but basically there is still some assumptions with serverless and that's kind of why i'm a little sheepish
Sometimes too on radix where i'm like, well
It seems like we're getting really close and it seems like everything is on full cylinder
But I do want to see linear scalability like have that flag in the ground where the assumptions turn to fact because
I do think you're right with your revelation and I agree with it and I see it the same way
But I also think deep down i'm like
Yeah, but all of this works
If linear scalability works, right like it's sort of uh, it pins down
All the other great features of radix in a way. I don't think that's also why they they really
Uh worked out the utxo based sharding model
Um to to to to make the transaction manifest the way it is and that's that's actually what
So can you it's not this name because
um, you have transactions like on eth or even on kadan or I think you you have to
The consensus which states of the transaction you want to change you want to do all this stuff
commitment to to the ledger
With radix is like no you have a transaction manifest
So you build up your transaction and you say to the consensus. Hey, I want this to happen
And the consensus can be like, okay. Yeah, that's my job. That's not your job to figure out which state blah blah blah blah blah
And the consensus takes it and knows where to go in which chart
The states need to be changed. You know what I mean? So that's what yeah, so you're you're hinting at you're hinting at this
Interesting concept that I tried to bring up with rutu rutu. Thanks again, man
And I don't want to speak to the other ecosystems because i'm I really don't want to mess up there
But what I will say is there is this inherent difference with radix where you have this
Determinism for the user is what I call it
It's it's based where the user touches
The you know radix where he you know, he goes to the wallet. He he basically is going to sign a transaction
It gives him everything that's going to happen. He can set a guarantee if he's willing to lose
um a percentage of you know, some kind of swap and and only get 97 of the tokens out of 100 percent
And there, you know, there's different things that you can see in that wallet
But basically he's determining at that point
In a very sleek way what he wants to receive after doing that transaction or what he wants to happen. Yes, and um
You see how that result happens. Yeah, but you see now you you you you you have to talk about it like as an intent
You see your transaction you're asking is an intent point
You see that and I see oh by the way guys
Yeah, no, you're absolutely let's talk about that more too
But I see vinnies in the house vinnies. I was reading a couple of tweets. So feel free to come on up
We'd love to have you and you know, um, there's a few other guys in here, too
So guys you can start requesting, uh speaker as well
Um, no pressure though vinnie, but I saw you were engaging with some laughter there
So, you know i'd love to love to chat with you
But yeah the intent yeah, there's there's uh, there's an intention
A guarantee that's basically what it means. There is a guarantee in this transaction
Yeah, I mean yeah, so there's a there's a guarantee that the outcome will be the desired one
But how it happens behind the scenes is this what would you call that in radix?
Is that to do with the radix engine as well the ability to figure out the best way to get that?
Guaranteed result back to the user. Does the radix engine have anything to do with that or what?
Yeah, I mean like transaction manifest is connected to the radix engine itself connected to the consensus because again
We need to connect all of them together
To to really understand where this is going
So yeah, yeah, and that is a big difference
Um from anything i've seen too where you have this
This almost like this almost like computerizing going on to get the desired result in a flexible manner
Up front and with the result. It's just behind the scenes like we had a guy
I don't know if he's here today. He was here at the beginning of the space, but he was explaining how
He was looking deep into on-chain analysis for how one of his transactions actually occurred
And it wasn't how he expected it would
But he got the result that he wanted
And he tried to figure out how it how the radix engine actually deciphered that logic and got him the result
And I think it was two spaces ago or maybe the last space but um
This is like this interesting part of it's all connected to the consensus
It's I don't know vinny. What do you think about us? Just kind of
Rambling here slash black sheet being awesome
Uh, welcome. Welcome to the no bs rags research
Hey, thank you, thank you very much i'm i'm better writing than speaking in english, but
I'll do my best. I'm better at speaking but right. Trust me. I'm over here with grammar
I I don't I don't doubt we all got something. I don't doubt you're great speaking, man
So keep up with the with the good work
I I am actually working so I had to to change my device and I was listening because i'm
I'm really excited about radix and
About learning. I love learning and now i'm learning about radix. So I am
Super obsessed with it and super dedicated into learning black ship
Also came in commented in in my post. So yeah guys, thank you. That was a great. Thank you for
well, is there anything that like, uh
I guess sticks out and I don't you know, it's interesting because it feels like you have some context from
Some different errors of crypto as well
But when you look at radix and you get that radix bug, you know, it's what we kind of call here
Like oh wait a second. This is kind of like at least for me. I was like
I'm kind of like alert. I want to see a few things still personally, but yeah, i'm not gonna leave this
Ecosystem. This is really interesting. I'm gonna keep watching this thing mature
What I guess maybe uh stuck out to you vinny. Yeah
The old school guys that are looking first for a picture appearance. So so i'm really focused on that
It's what I love is what brought me to crypto like the the main the first vision of bitcoin
Being an electronic cash system and all the projects that came after it. So I really like
Engaging with communities like the nano community that that's my favorite monero
bitcoin cash dash litecoin
This project this type of of project
But I love decentralization crypto in general. I
Actually work as a journalist cover in this industry. So i'm really passionate about it
But uh, isn't it interesting how radix kind of keeps some of these privacy?
Because it's not like they completely negate some of the core tenants of the crypto ethos
It's like it's built into the stack as well
You know, it's like they yeah, there's a lot of uh
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there inherently. I think protecting users
Data, you know if yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely
And i'm super enthusiast or of defy and other possibilities defy has
my problem with defy is that
For all the projects projects. I met before I never got fully convinced about security and
and use cases on scalability and
user experiences before so I was like following the the ecosystem following everything that that was developing but
Click at something that that I I really
Oops, I think we lost sorry. Yeah, did we lose you Vinny?
We lost for a second. Oh, you're back
Maybe you get notifications and when you get notifications in the space on the phone, uh, it kind of turned off your
Okay. Yeah, but but that's it. That's my experience with radix and i'm still learning but
I really see something different and have you tried to have you tried the wallet or personas even?
Yeah, I mean the wallet or personas I was going to mention because he mentioned renaro
um privacy heavy I think personas is a good rabbit hole to go down to with you probably have looked into it but
I create like one or two personas just to play and understand how this works
Not sure if I get it completely but I like what it's intense to do
Yeah, I feel like personas at the moment is still very very early. We don't have the domain name service yet
So the domain names are coming with uh very soon
Uh, they're on stocknet. They're on testnet at the moment
Uh trying stuff out and uh, they're coming on main night, uh very soon. I think in february
I think this month if I recall so once we have the domain names like black sheep dot xrd
And personas gonna start to make a bit more sense. We need social apps as well social dapps
Uh, it's interesting. So you have tried the wallet, yeah?
Yeah, I tried the the radix work wallet the the net one
And i'm about to to try the other open source. I'm
Trying to to understand how secure they are
But yeah, I plan to try I like more open source. So well
Community develop it once uh-huh. Yeah, you have just I don't know if you came across just
Zeus zeus, I think we say zoos
Yeah, there's zoos. I I didn't actually get hooked on zeus personally. Um
Just because of the onboarding I I couldn't get on there, uh first try
But uh, you know, I got to look back at it. I really do. Yeah with personas though to highlight why I brought it up was
There's a thing where we log on to websites
Give them our personal data
And there's almost like this layer there that I think personas is trying to tackle
Which gives us the ability to maybe do something like this. We log on to something that sells a physical product
With a persona that has an email and an address
Um fields which I don't believe we've gotten yet because i've also been making personas like hotcakes
And I haven't seen that yet
but I think that is coming maybe this year maybe next and
When we want to get something physically shipped to our house. All you really would need then is
Um the payment information which may be a dab could take care of for something like fedex
I'm still stretching my imagination to see how that could happen. But the email and the shipping address
Could probably go right to the freight carrier and have a ship
shipped something without the dapper website
I mean the idea with personas is you in control of what information you want to provide to
To the websites you interacting with that's that's what it is you you it's a web3
Uh authorization that comes from you
So you decide you can have different personas and if you don't want to share your personal information and log in
With a persona that doesn't have them then you do that, you know, so
Personas are really yeah this kind of web3 identity where you in control of
What you want to share about yourself
Yeah, that that's fantastic. I really like it. Yeah, it's a great thing
Thank you. Thank you for for your time. I I have to go because i'm i'm working. Yeah. All right. Yeah
Thank you, man. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Uh, no bs raj research episode 15. Yeah, man. I again when it comes to
Consensus, you know, I think here we go. I think that
Well, I was just gonna wrap a bow on it because I think it's something that i'm going to continue to bring up
And uh, you know, I just I just really want to be able to explain how this stuff works over time
But I think that there is an interesting again
Layer to this that maybe will take us down some rabbit holes this week. Well, definitely which is how radix engine
Which is how radix engine plays into this, you know how radix engine kind of plays into this
And in your points black sheep, I think we're really good
When it comes to the stats we touched on at the beginning of the space nelly continues to bring those stats
Yeah, I guess there is this milestone coming up too that we want to watch
I I wish I asked dan this question last week because he gave us the criteria for the milestone
But I don't know exactly how far we are from that milestone versus some of these tests
Did you catch that black sheep? I don't know if you had any thoughts on that milestone about what the what it
No, no about the assumptions and service. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, yeah consensus talk. Okay. Dan is really good at it. Um
I'm sorry to put you on this. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's okay
You're doing great. Yeah, you're doing great
I'm not sure what I can add right now, uh in terms of like consensus
Um, okay, right. We'll get our sword sharpened the radix engine between the radix engine and the consensus. Is that it?
More so about this assumption that we talked about last week with uh, yeah, dan
And he pointed out that because I asked him. Hey, dan. When would this milestone be kind of like
A fact instead of an assumption
And there was a point in there that we can watch now moving forward with service when that milestone becomes not an assumption
But a fact right and I think that will be a good thing for us to track here
On the space week to week because I don't know if that's going to be like way after these public tests
Because there's kind of a there's kind of a there's kind of this criteria that you lays out where node
Operate or validators need to be profitable
So I would suspect that that won't be for a bit right because we have to do the test we have to get to jion
There's still kind of a lot of ground to cover till then well
I think he's got a lot covered with cassandra already and we're gonna see some community tests
And I think it's going to be a progression with like smaller community tests
Towards bigger ones where we're going to try to achieve
Like so I think we're going to see pretty soon some uh, some community tests with cassandra
He's gonna and I think we should all like
Yeah, throw a validator in there. I think everyone should
Should just uh tell everyone they know with a computer to just download this
File that dan is going to provide us for cassandra because it's made with java
You can grab any computer and you try to run a node because it's going to be some uh, some very exciting
Something huge in this space that we need to break and I believe radix has it to break it. So
I think cassandra is the best example for us. So
So yeah, I can't wait for for cassie to to run again
Because we had such a great time. Yeah, I mean like in 2021
I wasn't the only one on twitch. I we were like plenty like maybe I don't know 15
We were 15 on twitch or something. I mean
Whoever was on twitch in 2021 is gonna remember anyway, uh how it was like with uh with dan
So we saw with the capabilities of like streaming straight on ledger 4k videos
Uh, we saw uh twitter running around 300 tweets a second
but now with the new cassandra, uh
I think uh, we could go way higher than 300 tweets a second
Um, we saw this stuff we played along with uh, everything that was on flex atom
Website which was completely hosted on cassandra the whole website. There was no like web server
Whoever remember those times? Uh, they're coming back, but I think 10x
What we what we witnessed in 2021 and 2022
So yeah, it's gonna be very exciting
Well, okay, so and I just found the uh milestone clip too by the way, but
Yeah, because I know that you have a lot of history with this and I know that there is sort of some things that we've touched
On and we're kind of rifting here, but I wanted to get this out because
This assumption around serverless is serverless is levers, right?
They them being no longer an assumption, but a fact
And he said when we have a gian network with 10 to 20 shards
Where validators are in profit multiples above their
What do you call it their costs right there?
That's when this assumption kind of gets proven to be a fact because you have 10 to 20 shards where validators are in profit
and uh, I think that's a healthy
Place to kind of plant a flag saying that the that service is
Sort of working and again
The reason why I think that this is an important one the track is because of the simple fact that I believe that linear
Pins all of this stuff. I think that if yes you have because you have layers in these other
Ecosystems that I think have potential
If you can tackle linear scalability in a way where you can
Transfer value cross shards and have atomic composability and have this awesome user experience
I just also think that languages and dev experiences will improve and user experiences will improve
I think they nailed it they nailed it because they have the linear scalability because they they separated the transaction from
The consensus in a way. It's like radix engine is giving you this transaction this native intent
And it just as a user or as interacting with the radix engine you're like, hey, I want this to happen
Make it happen and then the consensus
So there's a sweet spot kind of with the yeah intent mixed with the linear scalability that you're even kind of highlighting
Yeah, because it's not about like oh, I would like to touch this and touch that and I would like to see this and that
Uh to happen in my transaction
This is not what happens on radix on radix
It's like I want this that that and that in the transaction manifest and I want all of this to happen
I want to guarantee on it. Thank you very much. Bye
No, I agree. I think they nailed it. Yeah
Um, I think it's kind of the yeah because it's kind of what you need but but it blows
preconceived notions out of the water from the standpoint of like
Oh, we're gonna have layer versus like of different, you know
Because the problem I see and many see with layers is the security
Are let's say going from an l1 to an l2
And again when we go to the sharded versus uncharted networks you kind of have some
preconceived notions around
Just data being lost from different yeah, uh, dare I say attack vectors
You know, it's kind of like well with the way that these
Trans these tx hashes are braiding from node to node
I mean i'll just say it like that. That's that's actually a poor way to say it by the way guys
So I will refine that part of it
But I do think that the way that shards can globally
Uh almost communicate with each other you have an inherent degree of protection where you have more nodes
Than are currently validating a shard that are observing the shard
And a couple other layers of protection that dan. Oh, yeah, let me actually go find that too
Actually, i'm gonna find that interaction with dan and pin it up for people
Yeah, I mean it also comes down to the fact that there's unrelated and related transactions
So yes, and that's where the consensus separate the two and that's why linear scalability is also possible
Because unrelated transaction can be parallelized but parallelized. Sorry for my accent
Um, but you you know what I mean? So and I wanted to say like while he's quiet shakespeare
I wanted to say about casting on dry, you know
I wanted to say it's like I think people don't realize we could the the entire industry
Running on cassie and it wouldn't be enough
To push cassandra, you know with the validators like you put
500 validators on cassandra, which is pretty much solanas network. So that's what I was saying to dan
If we had 1700 validators a high hand high hand
Um spec, uh notes like solana, you know, what could we do? Where could we go?
Uh linear scalability atomic cross shard transactions. So where do we go from there?
So the calculation on my napkin was that we were around 250 000 swaps
It's basically we we have no idea how far this is going because we could put the entire industry on cassandra
That's that's the the thing that is crazy about
Yeah, that's why a lot of people are wholeheartedly agree. That's a lot of people are like, uh, okay
This is too good to be true. This is too much. You know, it's it's way too high, you know, it's like
We're celebrating uh 4000 tps. We we can't just think of
Something that could like take everything that exists and just run it like
Like easy, you know, no piggy. So I think it's hard to grasp really
Um what's going on with dan's?
Beast that he made over 10 years of uh rnd
Yeah, and i'm still trying to watch it because I want to see like it be battle tested
The under the underpinning of everything is linear scalability. So while we're waiting
I'm kind of just like okay
Let's figure out how this works a little bit better and i'm starting to see how it works a little bit better and i'm asking
Questions to uh some folks that I would say have natural incentives to be skeptical of radix. Yes
And uh, they're kind of in other ecosystems and whatnot and the questions i'm getting i'm kind of figuring out
So so it's like oh, yeah, it's good. It's all you know, it's crazy good from that standpoint. Um
But yeah seeing it battle tested or execution is usually after I go through the loop of like, okay
Uh, what would you ask about this ecosystem?
Okay, let me figure out the answer to that. Okay now like is this answer good enough?
But now it's just about the execution and I hope everything goes well because they again already have like, you know
Livings or whatnot. They're making a living in a different ecosystem. So they can't jump ship per se. No. Yeah
Especially right but they have integrity to like ask the right question. Sorry. Go ahead. I mean a lot of people right now
Just look at the the the spec right now of the ledger on the spec right now of the ledger
There is there are 100 validators
validating on one shard group
Which is uncharted basically so a lot of people stop at that
without even looking at how
Transactions are actually conceived on the network, which already will give a hint of where we're going
Architecture of the network. It's like these things that comes into place and it takes time and uh,
But things are already there like the transaction manifest this this those those things are keys
For the neck for shan for the next step
Those are keys, but you see them on the ledger. That's 100 validators. So you're gonna assume too fast
Doesn't have what it takes to go where they
they make the promises of
I completely get the idea that we need to be skeptical. We need to look at every aspect and always being
thoughts and ideas and concepts and
Try to battle test them at least like you said, you know, like I love writing. Yeah, it's just objective
Yes, you know, I mean you just gotta see and I think even dan
You know dan would agree because he even said that seeing 10 to 20 shards where validators are in profit multiples above
Their overhead costs would be a good place to put a flag in the ground and say this is no longer an assumption
But um, you know, maybe just like hey
This is actually being proven these levers that are incentivizing validators to effectively run this
Are working out black sheep. Can we actually I don't know if you gotta go do you have about 15 more minutes?
Because I want to shift i'm good. Okay, cool. Because let's shift topics to
There was something brought up by the community
Maybe we can tee this up basically, you know, whatever we want to do with it and you tagged me and I think a guy named
Not neutron, but another jimmy was talking about this
Yeah, so what was this topic? Can you kind of give us the
I have to I have to find a I have to find a tweet again. Can you send it? Yeah, because this is why you said
Uh, yeah, sure. I was gonna give you space to find it. Do you want me to do that?
Or do you want me to try to find? Okay. So basically, um, this is why black sheep said this space would be a boiler space
What we've covered so far in this space is script. Oh, then we covered uh rock
We kind of fumbled our way through consensus. So I hope some people listen to the full thing
Not just part of that topic
But I think we'll get better over time. Yeah, and there's definitely um
Another topic that might be a little bit more hot
So i'm open to people coming up. I see lucas is in the house, you know part of oc swap which
I've said this many times and i've also said that I believe dexes have an inherent incentive to
Love things like meme coins because they create transaction fees
That doesn't mean that I don't like dexes coming and giving their perspective. I would love dexes to do so
All i'm trying to objectively say is that
And in a no bs fashion and the other thing too about this whole thing is um, I love lucas because lucas is everywhere
Okay, if you actually watch how much this guy shows up to everything. He is just like insanely
Multi-faceted in fact some radix people believe that he has several clones of himself
And i've heard that through the grapevine
Um, we also got wilson in the house wilson feel free to come on up if you want to you know
I know that you're a validator out here
So, you know feel free to come on up if you got any bars to spit man that we we also got, uh, you know
Another return e which is fit and arrow. Yeah
Yeah, so fit and arrow was out here. I think four weeks ago
Feel free to come on up. I know that you are, you know into pokemon. You got the sapphire version
You know, you got this emerald version that you're talking about with requeza. I don't know what's going on with that
Actually, actually you you were talking about uh personas with vini
And I think fit in a fit in arrow would have something to say about personas with their uh, social trading
So because i'm sure i'm sure they're gonna use some sort of there. I mean that's as good as uh, yeah
I mean call it an act. I mean, but let's go
Yeah, if we can cue up this topic too
Let's also throw that out there as bait in case anybody else wants to come on up and speak to it
And it's it's pretty open guys
So at this point we're we're chilling we're relaxed and i've gotten through all the things that I kind of wanted to this space
We'll refine all the intel
And till we run out of steam, but okay
So what's the topic that we want to queue up here black sheep and i'll try to find the tweet so I can follow along too
What topic do you want to queue up for next week? You mean?
Yeah, well no just the one with jimmy. I mean
Can you send me jimmy's uh tweet I don't remember I remember jimmy and I was like, okay, he seems nice
um, okay, but uh, I don't remember what we talked about because i'm a
A bit everywhere as well. No, that's like that's okay, man. I got it. Yes
So jimmy says honest thoughts on why xrd, um continues to be non-progressive
And then you say and then black sheep says
Speculation is the casino game 90 of crypto projects are willing to play for short-term gains
Which was a hot take by black sheep
Rax's adoption technology that rather not take part of generating speculative games
gains rather promote ecosystem growth and developer adoption now my thing is this guys, okay, I rebuke
This is not a judgment thing. I could be wrong. Okay, but I just rebuke the conversation of meme
specifically start for the crack in my voice
Because i'm not a meme coin guy, but i'm cool with people coming up and you know, whatever if they are
That's fine. I I just am not a meme coin guy, but there is there is you know
There's a future where everybody's not a meme coin person
I might present an argument for you know, why it's cool that people can do whatever they want on blockchains
Exactly. So I don't know just right now
I want to be on the unpopular side of anything related to meme coins, which is being not a meme coin guy
This conversation. Can you kind of talk about what this was really hinting at which is progressive growth, you know other
Crypto projects what are they doing that radix isn't right? Okay. J. Speak. Let's let's talk about
Let's talk about it. Like we are crypto bros. We kept to this space not just for the tech but also to make money
Uh, we have been making money by speculating only
Is that how people actually you you think they lose it eventually? Yeah, I mean, you know stay in the game
Yeah, it's kind of like you gotta yeah. Yeah. I mean like it's kind of like the casino then I don't know
It is a huge casino. Come on, like let's let's face it. It's a huge casino
The thing is is we have to understand the idea. It's like in 2010
Okay, bitcoin it wasn't like really a casino then, you know
I remember I couldn't even buy it. I had to mine it or I had to
There was website giving it for free
So that's what how bitcoin was so it grew up as a as a casino as a ponzi scheme
massive ponzi scheme with a with a great tech for the time
And uh to prevent civil attacks or making it permissionless and secure which is pretty much what bitcoin does which is great
um, but over the years we build up this industry over speculation and I think we are coming in a stage where web 3 is
Take um taking another route, you know
As I think radix is in this route of web 3 I think they one of the pioneers of web 3 culture
I mean like right now buying xrd token and leave it on an exchange waiting for the price to go up
This is the wrong way to look at radix
This is really literally like you're wasting your time
If you really want to do something you take your xrd you bring them into the ecosystem
And then you you you work with them. That's how you're gonna
See, uh the incentive of web 3 if this is the experience of web 3
This is how you're gonna see it if you wait on exchange
to to bring the price up with some
Market makers and all the casino stuff that is going on. Yeah sure do that
This is thousands of other coins to do it
But uh, I think as an investor like if I was looking at radix right now
I'll be like this is probably my worst investment in terms of speculation instead of me trying to produce
Out of the token, but it's the best
It's my best investment. I don't know. Hold on. It's my best
When it comes to user experiences my best investment when it comes to where I want my money to
Like I I when I have my money in radix wallets, I it's in my wallet, you know
I'm not speculating anything. Um, this is my assets
They are in my wallet and there's nothing that can take them away from me
You know that that's a you and you had a big list
Yeah, because I also want don't let me I know we got patches up, but don't let me forget atomic tps. Oh, yeah
But but but before that yes
Okay, good, that's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure
Okay, because because here's the thing, you know radix. I think they're yeah. I I mean it's speculation
I really think the market revolves around narratives still and I think narratives are huge not always true
But crafted the thing is I follow a guy. Well, can I just go yeah
Can I just can I just finish get to pat and get patches involved too?
And I don't know patches so it could be it could be a troll. It could be a scam
I don't know. It could be a really reputable person
So I just thought okay, let's see and patches gave me the thumbs up. So maybe that's but here's the thing, right?
It's like a scam. You have narratives
Okay. Thank you patches. You have narratives and I think there's this concept called
Experientially centricness that radix has which is not
Everybody is gonna, you know stay out of web3 and not touch the tech
It's actually hey, it's gonna be so good at one point
We believe that everybody's gonna have a freaking mobile wallet and everybody's gonna, you know be interacting with the blockchain
That's a different ambition. Yeah with I think the experience
With users, but let's go to patches patches. What's up?
yeah, I love the conversation and um, i've been interested in radix since I went to the
Radix booth and consensus 2023
Um, I I work at uh swirls labs, which builds Hedera. So i'm the senior product manager of consensus and tokenization of Hedera
Are the lifeblood of adoption?
And when you look at analytics
Crypto and their first hit was bitcoin. The other 50 was doge
That's half like it's it's it's an insanely i'm one of them
I got in because how many how many yeah, how many stayed because I get that a lot of people stay but dude
Not everybody stays right. That's just one data point. So yeah, that's that's a macro economic. So radix
It's a smaller network and like Hedera is a smaller network. So we're
One I I love i'm across gene maxi ain't nobody got to be the one thing that wins
It's going to be a patchwork of networks working together to create a beautiful user experience on top of it
And no one's going to say hey, I only like google engine or I only like aws. They're like i'm gonna get on this website, right?
We're just early in the tech
I'm i'm all here for cross chain and the to me the idea of utility coin is
Is a is a cool thing to strive for but dies
When you when you actually try to achieve it
And it's because the problem with the utility coin is that the economic model of a decentralized network doesn't facilitate
The idea that this coin is only used to execute compute because if you do that
There's no economic incentive to set up, you know methods in which you can have more nodes of mirrors or there's no economic incentive to
Build on top of that network, which then your your adoption level is is much much lower
So if you have radix which has i'm assuming because I remember looking at the tech and really liking it
Again, i'm from hashgraph. So I really like the iteration on blockchain
If you have a really amazing decks with like zero percent slippage and it's so fast and cheap
It's hard to get that story across because you're just talking to them and you're in the noisy room
If you have a meme coin that then gets people over to get on boarded for a wallet on boarded with radix
And execute the decks and experience the benefit of your technology in hands
Not only are they then hit with a really good experience
They're on boarded and they can go to your nft network
They can go and start being a builder they can go and and understand the network in a more intimate level
And the entry point of something that's not daunting that's not huge to like have a conceptual load
But it's just a stupid dog that I kind of want
It's it's a really really easy entry point for people to experience the benefit of the technology
Without the ecosystem of well, that's that's fine
But that's a whole that's a whole different argument than why I rebuke meme coins. Can I present you?
Um why I think meme coins can you know?
Listen, man. It's not all it's not great
But it's not all sunshine and rainbows and i'll tell you why because I think if a scammer
Right, if we just put our sell all of our minds in this scammer, what would they want?
They would want euphoria and dopamine and I think where a user's first interaction or
Oh, yeah, we're gonna adopt the world with meme coins if we have a frothy environment
Where everybody's got dopamine and euphoria. I think that's the easiest time for people to actually get
Scammed and it might not be from the tech, you know, and I think you would agree it's it's sometimes phishing
It's sometimes some email notification. It might be you know, there's there's discord acts
There's all this stuff that you know, that's enough that are new new users
Right that in frothy kind of speculative areas
Which is why again, I bring this up not just for meme coins, but just like, you know
Hey, you know, maybe the touch point to adopt people into crypto
Is that now but maybe it can be something a little bit different as the block as the industry matures
And that's all i'm trying to challenge. I'd agree with that
But like so we're we're currently going through a meme coin resurgence
On hadera. We've seen 70 new adoption of our defi week over week
And so in that when looking on on-chain metrics
We had 2,000 people who've touched a fungible token
The next day was 50,000 wallets and we had an create a spike of creation and those wallets
About 25 of them then went to our nft market then went and started to invest in
Bsl which is a bank social which is a credit union, you know
Method of decentralization so you can look at the on-chain metrics that we're currently in on our network
And we can see that this adoption curve. Yes, people might get wrecked but
In a decentralized network, there's no guardrail the entire point is that there aren't guardrails, right?
It's p2p exchanging and there will always be malicious actors
But if you can and yeah, and I agree
I I love this because I again agree and I again as not a project is not somebody that works for one of these
And just pointing out the obvious which is you can get wrecked. Yes
Projects will have incentives for meme coins. That doesn't mean that we should all just kind of
Not rebuke them at times and that's all i'm trying to say patches i'm just saying like define that there's I guess
a rebuke is one of these terms that's used and I think like when you have a like a
Demonic entity around you you rebuke it a little bit. Right kind of give it a little bit of holy water
And I think okay, but let me just say this though
You don't think that there's an incentive for meme coins to have trading fees?
uh trading fees on a DEX you don't you disagree with the fact that a DEX may be a little bit more laissez fair in their
Meme coin policy than someone without that incentive
Created a billion dollar asset market by doing things in a dgen manner and the note the network is more secure
Because the transactions on the network have skyrocketed and the nodes get paid out with more fees and a decentralized network works
When more people use it and that inception point is meaning is ordinals is inscriptions
It's what the market dictates through market effects. And if you rebuke market effects, you will have the best technology in the woods
Where no one's not yeah, okay. So yeah, I I see your point
wait, wait, let me just make one final thing here because
I you know, I see where you're coming from activity on the network is health
Okay, I I I see where that is fine
But I also see meme coin apologists. Have you seen these guys?
Meme coin apologists are people that shill meme coins until their bags get deflated to zero from staying in the game
And they then go on to tweet and these are crypto influencers saying guys. I am i'm devastated
I'm, sorry that I ever talked about these things. We need to focus on the more serious problems
And it's sort of like an arc of us of a character in like some kind of intellectual property
And it's kind of the meme coin apologists arc because it's great and well
Until you have somebody of influence shilling things and then getting kind of a reputational slam
Because they thought it was just good for the network
So I think it's worth pointing out like
Man, if you're gonna talk about something, you know
It's kind of like other people are gonna follow what you say and they might actually invest and they might get angry at some point
And that could be at a product or at somebody with a reputation. I I would update just the term
I think I I agree with you, but it's not the meme coin apologists. No, no, I mean
That's again. That's like what's gonna happen in any market
Just exaggerating all my terms are exaggerated by the way, what what i'm saying is
If you embrace meme coins and you have a mantra of don't put more in than you're willing to lose have fun with it
But do not invest money to think that you're going to get generational wealth if you frame
the the happenstance of what is happening on your network in a
Educational way to make sure that as many people as possible don't get wrecked while also engaging in your defy
I think that's the method for it because you can never that's probably
Politically correct. Yeah, I agree that that's politically correct way, but you have extremes on both sides
So I just think that being in the dream on the rebuke side is kind of where I like to sit
because I don't I don't like to you know, but I I also if you notice and not like
You know, it's hard to argue with the point that you made around adoption
It's just like well, is that just an early thing which I suspect it will be when we look back like I think the things that will
Initially touch users that have not
interacted with certain networks will probably change over time and you know, I think that your points are
Ultimately valid. I just still think that it's worth noting
Um, i'm not a meme coin guy. I rebuke I rebuke them, but i'm fine talking to people like you patches
I respect your position and we need people on both sides of the balance beam
So these conversations are had so i'm because i'm the guy on the other side of the balance beam on ordinals
I'm like all these indexes are centralized and i'm always, you know trying to get them to be more decentralized
but uh to my point or my last point would be
um, you you definitely need both and
God damn, I lost it, but it was like a kind of a betamax situation
This isn't a crypto thing. This is human interactions with the speculation of value from beanie babies to pet rocks
Meme coins are but another method in which humans are doing the same exact thing
They've always done and so though it might be a blip
It's got to turn into something else that's speculative and that will never go away because it's just how humans
Have shown to act over history
So the best thing we can do is try to guard rail as best as possible through education and create mechanisms in which
We try to give you the tools of where dyor is very easy
To have the best investment, you know possible in your in your trajectory
But again, I respect and we need people no no mutual mutual respect because like I I usually get a lot of uh, let's just say
Unpopularity from my stance though. I tried to make it entertaining and funny. It's still like well
Okay, we can we can have respectful conversation and you made a very interesting point
Which is yes, this is a human thing, but it is interesting and i'm not saying a stance here
I just think it's interesting how it does
Impact in industry in the case of meme coins
Um, which I don't think we see as much
With other things that you mentioned like collectibles that are physical on ebay that we sell
It's kind of an interesting way that people do get on boarded which you highlighted
But I think it does kind of impact this industry and I just think the short term
Positive effects will always be at least balanced out maybe not outweighed by the negative but at least balanced out
So there could be something on the other side of that hill
To prep for as well for the folks that are currently in one stage of their arc
I don't know though. It's it's something I need to think about more too to be honest
I see it the other way where I think there's short-term negative effects
Like you described like people come into an ecosystem make it wrecked
They never want to touch crypto again
But the long-term effects of them now having a wallet even if they don't engage with it for two years
And then they get on toward a space and like oh, yeah
I did have that wallet and then like oh shit
I have juke and then they have they have value there because they got an airdrop because they were on salana for one second
Or something. So it's the long-term effects of meme coins are better than the short term
Which is the high speculation people getting wrecked. So all of the problems that you're you're talking about but the long-term
No, I I guess that's fine. But I see a shorter shorter term effect
Where that liquidity is going somewhere and it's probably not to the ecosystem
It's probably to the folks that orchestrated the meme coin ing
And got people kind of hyped up on something
And it might not go to the ecosystem
In certain cases going out certain times we see
yeah, we do we do see hills where like
Uh a lot of that liquidity actually does get pulled out
So i'll put i'll put you know
I'll agree to find the short term long term
But I do and I do see a lot of people that say to me
Listen, I got on board from immune coin and now i'm like this crypto ethos like, you know
I got the man bun i'm all in
So so I do I do understand but i'm also gonna you know
Throw an extra short short because i'm i'm just being petty at this point black sheep
What do you think? Well, I think you both
You both kind of like speak of
But not necessarily the future to me
But the present moment. Yes, I totally agree with patches. I agree with you jspik
Uh, but the future I have if I if i'm staying right eccentric here
Um, I would say that it's not the priority here to onboard people with memes
Uh, it's a cool concept and there's already like people doing it on on radix
But this is not the this is not the direction. I see
People on radix, uh trying to
To to to to get adoption and I think we can even think of like what is adoption?
What is really because if we see the the the actual current length landscape?
Uh, could we call that an adoption already or is that what sort of adoption we want?
But like with two billion people and we do exactly the same thing or where are we going with this adoption?
What is really the the point of adoption? What?
You know, it's like it's easy to throw adoption in the air like this
But I think we don't realize yet what adoption means
and I think radix has uh this idea that uh
It wants to detach itself from crypto
meaning from speculation from ponzi scheme from
The whole shabang that we are in and we we we we've been experiencing so far for more
The life can improve and we can use wetri in everyday
And I think I think that's where my it's essential
Is is are the nodes centralized and permission? Well, first of all
Because if no, then you can't stop it. What do you mean?
Uh, you will always have speculation on your chain if you're successful. Yes
And if you can adhere to businesses, yes, you curate you're creating a product. Yeah for a entity execution
And you're disregarding the economy of a decentralized network that will always exist if your product is successful
And i'm just saying it's inevitable if you're successful in what you're saying
To have meme coins and d-gen because it's it's decentralized. Yes, and so the second you become popular
This is going to get you I get to well if you think if you think that meme coins will last like if you if you think
Always be there and I think traders love speculation and uh, we want traders in every network
So speculation always going to be there. I'm not saying that speculation should shouldn't be there
Uh, i'm saying that the direction I throw a point. Yeah, black sheep. I got you man. Listen
Is the entire usage of the internet based on speculation today? Yeah, exactly. No
No, it's not. It's not but it's actually it's based on other applications
That provide value. Exactly
So I think what black sheep is hinting at here and this is not to disagree with anything that patches has said so far
um other than some of my earlier takes that are my personal stance and I could be wrong is that the
Maturity is one directional which is because of time
And as as the space matures, maybe we will see
That that free kind of decentralized like marketplace of applications actually grows past
Just speculation and usage and adoption into something much bigger and that's the hope at least that's like what we probably wish for and hope for
The main difference and I would never compare web3 to the internet, even though I understand why you would want to
There I can get things tear down. There's dns. There's uftk
There's an entire infrastructure of an ability to restrict access to things even through isps. We don't even have you know, um
An ability to guarantee that isps give us all the data because we lost that that law in america
So there's there's a you there's a completely different dynamic when everything can I compare it to something else for you then? How about this?
Okay, does the entire world
Because okay, that's a philis. I think you're going philosophical with that
And it's like look at the gambling apps in america
Everyone has a gambling app and everyone is gambling on every football game
On the ups and downs like I get ads all the time because it became legal and everyone engages it outweigh the other things that humans
No, but it is inside the economy that yeah
Yes, I agree. I agree. But my point is basically that
Yeah, I 100 agree that it's there. I'm just saying like at some point
I do think that first initial
Experience won't be with meme coins a hundred percent. Yeah, I think that's pop
My only point is if you're trying to create a network that brings utility to business
Which is literally like what hideras do like I really believe in that purpose like we work with atmo
Google's on our governing council ibm bowing like we have an entire infrastructure trying to build
Blockchain for business was the whole tagline at davos right for for hidera. I get that mentality. My only point is
In order to cater to business. They want more what they need 50 000 wallets already onboarded to even care about your network
You need network effects to get the enterprises to be interested in your technology. Even if it's better
They need to be able to have adoption or if it's just b2b
Then you're creating a product not a decentralized network
And it falls down when it gets to scale because it doesn't have all the things that necessitate a decentralized network to scale
We're just talking about like our hopeful future of like it being something different than meme coins patches
But I did hear uh, I don't know
Um the person that I just invited uh jarhead wants to you know
Speak a final final real quick or any thoughts on this combo, but we are gonna wrap
I think we're black sheep. Do we have actually have a meeting in a minute? That's fair. This has been great
I followed both you guys. I'm glad I popped in here
We are too. I want to learn about radix, but but let's just uh black sheep
Do we have anything else on the docket that might be worth mentioning before we go to some final finals and close the space down?
If we were talking about what jimmy was saying at the beginning in this conversation, we just had
patches it was that uh, yes, if you want your xrd to do something just
Make them do something on the ecosystem. Don't wait
Like I don't know. I mean like the people are listening to us right now. I don't know if they have xrd on exchange
For trading sure trade as much as you like speculate as much as you like
But if you really want to extract the value of xrd
You better get your xrd onto into the ecosystem and start using it because that's where the value is
That's where that's where we're starting
Can I just pres can I present a little bit less of a call to action?
But still maybe a call to action just because i'm kind of more low key with this like what about um
What about sticking to a validator and just kind of following where that validator is contributing, you know, that could be an easy thing
You know learn, um what your validator who whether it's dap like oc swap or something like radix charts
But yeah get to know get to know and I would say this for any
Um kind of proof of stake because like a lot of proof of stake
What's been interesting with these validators is they've had to market themselves and develop past just being a
Just being like a node with like good uptime too, especially early on at least with radix
I think that will hopefully wear down because it probably should right?
For now, there's a lot of validators that have marketed their presence and what they're doing
And it could just be if you're if you got radix, you know, not financial. I don't care what you do. First of all
I'm not going to tell you what you do
But one thing that you might find enjoyable is a little hobby on the weekend while you're maybe your significant other is
I don't know just going to
Some kind of yoga and you just got a little time yourself is to research what your validator is doing
And you're and just like look at like just kind of figure out where they're actually, you know
It could be an interesting thing. I don't know what you think. Well, actually I tried with my girlfriend that doesn't work too good
No, no, well, they're away. Yeah
Well, I was just saying well, it's really good. You know, you might have some time to yourself. Yeah, but um
But I think I think it's a healthy, you know way to do it without
Because sometimes I do I mean playing around with the ecosystem is important because then you can experience the tech firsthand
And it's something that I definitely you know want to do more personally
I just think that um, yeah for some folks that are a little more passive with it that could still be a good educational hobby
Um, definitely sure. Yeah
Try to lsu's on caviar nine
See how it works put some uh
Liquidity on the on oc swap
It's like pretty easy to do all that this stuff. Yeah, it's pretty common in every other network. So I think so. Yeah
Definitely. So black so we'll actually uh
Next week, you know, it'll be fun to see what kind of populates between now and then you can tag
I don't know if you want to tell jimmy that we kind of I don't know if we tackled everything on progressiveness
But feel free to tell them that we tried to and you know
Octopus dot xrd which uh came up recently with uh a new project. Oh, yeah. What was that bro?
I don't know. What the heck was that? Yeah, I don't that was
A stable coin. It was a collab
It was a collateral mechanism that allowed you to put xrd into what I believe was
A contract that would mint a coin called stab. Yeah
I don't know what the heck that is
Who is octopus? I don't know. I don't know that guy. No, okay. So that's
Yeah, I saw him too. He followed me back when I followed him after he did it
But I don't know who it is and it's a squid word
So it could be something to be wary of it could be something that you know
And the other thing too is I don't know if we had slammer in today
Slammer come to the space because we were supposed to talk about corporate entities, but I guess he bounced
I don't know if he's jimmy as well
Well, okay, maybe we'll bring that up next week
Uh, okay final finals, uh black sheep. What do you got for a final? You're our only one man
So so I guess you know, feel free to make it good, dude
But basically any highlights wise quotes that you want to leave us on any fuel
Uh the weekend and next week and then we'll close down the space another no bs
Radix research episode 15 in the books black sheep. The floor is yours. What's your final final, sir? Well, my final final is
Uh, I enjoy the space enjoy scripto talk scripto talk. I think we need more of that
and uh more dev experience
Uh going through the space
Um, so like octopus so i'm looking forward the next one and uh what can come up with
Um, yeah, i'm just uh, yeah
Uh and for the liquidity for the ecosystem, uh, if you want to get wet
Go where the liquidity is. Okay, and the liquidity is in the ecosystem
That's my are you referring to something there because I don't you know, I don't know if that's enough for people
Yeah, if you want to go away with some intel
They're like a liquidity what liquidity is coming to the ecosystem is being the best way to frame it
yeah, there's like one million dollars of
Xrd that are coming for developers and people that are actually building on the ecosystem
And then you have caviar nine that is uh launching today
Uh an incentive liquidity incentive on their pool
so you use the concentration of liquidity, uh, and uh, the more your
Your liquidity is used the more um airdrop of caviar token you get
So there's some uh liquidity incentive coming we have foresee. What was the name of this market maker keynote?
keynote that they're also coming
Yeah, no, that's good to know and then the other thing too is trove sent me a dm
Yeah, basically they spent a decent amount of time on improving
So feel free to check out what they're talking about there
At trove and then I don't know man, you know, the last thing I'll say guys is this
I want to bring up some of the harder technical concepts more and more
And I want to refine the way that we chat about it black sheep came to this space
Asked him a lot of things that honestly, I don't even know if I told him that I was going to ask
So thank you so much black sheep. Yeah for coming
Uh to the space and just like being put on the spot. Yeah, and also helping get uh rutu
uh, who's only here really because black sheep
Helped organize that so we really appreciate that because that scripto talk was interesting
And i'll probably listen back to that portion at least. Yeah, and
You know, I think as we move forward here
I think some more radix engine would be good. I think uh,
I think that should be our next the relationship
I think radix engine should be our next kind of big push to figure out if we can find some people to speak on that
so if you guys know anybody tag them and um
Yeah, radix engine is making the magic. It's like it's why scripto is so good
It's because of the radix engine. It's like once you connect the dots, but I I feel myself
uh deep diving and it's hard to get the concept of radix engine like really get into
Into it like properly without using scripto. So i'm looking at
What a long course to just have this interaction with the radix
How this relationship is built because it's very important because the radix engine is between the developer and the consensus
So your your network is going to scale linearly
And then as a developer you won't have to worry about
Of the network and you can build your business logic with all the authentication and badges
That scripto, uh put in place in nicely
nicely in a nice, um, how you say, um
Lexic or no, not lexical. How do you say this programming term don't remember but um
And this nice way but it's crypto only works this nice way because radix engine is behind it
It's radix engine. I understand those badges. It's radix engine. I understand the authentication
That understand all the personas. That's radix engine. I understand all of this
Not scripto scripto is just a nice right is a nice flavor to
To to work with the radix engine
So I think the the soup is in radix engine a lot and scripto is the soup
I don't know. Well, you say that a lot you say the soup. I don't know if we
Not everyone enjoys I don't know if everybody but I like soup
So I hear you the other thing too though is the soup is like that special little thing when the full course
You know when they make the soup, you know the magic soup
The magic that's what I wanted to say the magic is oh the magic magic. There's a lot of magic inside radix engine
Well, I was gonna frame it like this because maybe our next goal could be to get someone to have the soup dejour
on the no bs radix research base be
The radix engine and we can call that main thing that we're gonna try to break down or have someone speak on the soup dejour
Because of you black sheep and your term the soup
And the last the last last thing that i'll say this is shout out to lucas
Shout out to jarhead. Uh jarhead a long time co-host on other spaces
Um, and you know, we've just hosted uh ben co we've co-hosted each other quite a bit
So thanks jar for tuning in. I did just shoot you a dm by the way
Uh vinnie shout out to vinnie for coming up to the first uh pop in the no bs rax research cherry
Uh, shout out to vinnie. Uh, welcome back anytime and we uh, appreciate your threads and you know
Not all of us are good writers, man. So we appreciate you out there in the trenches
We got and that includes me man. I'm not the best writer, but i'll tell you this we got wilson in the house
And that's radical stake who i'm still staked to by the way
Even though wilson did tell me that he he wanted less baseball and it made me want to bring baseball back
It made me want if you guys remember episode three
Uh, dan hues played a game of baseball with him
Inspector inspector gadget or inspector crypto, excuse me with the radical penguin
Just laser beaming at pajero with the sunglasses
Um pajero, I hope you duck your head because in my on my user interface here
Inspector the radical penguin we're glad that we have him here is laser beaming right at your brother
So I hope you duck duck those head and always repping those nice shades shout out to pajero by the way pajero
There's a couple of things that I think you wanted us to go through that we didn't today
But we'll we'll try to bring them back up
And maybe the next uh, no bs rags research space too. I was really hoping slammer was gonna be here
I don't know if he came and we were just kind of in the middle of it. We got be like water
Something that bruce lee used to say
Shout out to be like water. Uh andrew in the house with nice gm cup
I uh for good mama. I think gm stands for nowadays good mama or I don't know if it means um
Uh good money or good mon. I don't know
Uh, good morning to killy boy or good evening. Good afternoon
And then we got uh arou lise and we got chaps
Chaps is such a great word. I really want to use chaps, uh or chops
I guess is what I was thinking but chaps is kind of like the list that you get
Oh in ink in england, it would be the hour. Yeah those chaps
Uh that oh, oh that's how you yeah, i've heard that rap, right? Yeah, it's like iglish rap. I hear that actually chaps. Okay. Yeah
Yeah, those so that's they just been the like look at those look at those
Look at those look at those wankers. I think they say too. They're always calling people wankers
They're always calling people wankers
They're always saying people are wankers english. I don't know man if they wank. I don't know. I don't know what they're wanking
They're always calling. Yeah, they're called the orc
But anyways, man, that's no bs razz research episode 15 in the books
Everybody have a great weekend and next week. We'll see you on episode 16 probably 11 a.m. Friday next week
Take care everybody. Peace