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Nolus & Levana! All you need to know!
Recorded: Dec. 14, 2023 Duration: 1:08:19Space Recording
Full Transcription
I am a L-I-N-E-A-N-A-N-T.
I am a L-I-N-E-A-N-C,
I am a L-I-N-I-N-E-A-N-I-A-N-I-A-N-I-A-N-I-A-N-I-A-N-I.
I am really sure that we may be at the edge of our work.
I am definitely sure that we are on the edge of our work,
We're excited to hear more about what you guys are up to and to talk about what's happening
with Levana over the next couple of weeks.
Hi, everyone.
Thank you for the invitation.
We are going to chat Levana and there's some things to cover.
Obviously, Levana is approaching 1 billion in the volume of the platform.
This is approaching all-time highs.
This is approaching all-time highs.
There are new things coming to Nolus.
Although the two platforms might seem to be different.
On Nolus, you essentially put the asset as the collateral.
You loan it and you can leverage your position this way and benefit from the upside.
You can also provide the stable coin to earn additional yield.
And Levana, in this case, perps, for many perps is, I think, more of the risk takers.
Okay.
And, but I think you can also leverage Levana in more conservative ways.
And actually, both protocols, even if you use, you can use Levana in a conservative way.
You can use Nolus to actually profit from more, from the safer strategies.
Right?
I think we could start from Levana.
There was a lot of, a lot of talk lately.
If the, if the Nolus folks are okay with that.
I know from Levana's side, we are speaking to Jonathan.
From Nolus we are speaking to?
Meto.
I'm doing product development at Nolus.
Meto, yeah?
Yeah.
Yep.
Okay.
Nice to, I think we talked before, right?
Yeah, we've talked before.
Yeah.
So Jonathan, like, can you, can you tell us what is going on with the, with the volume,
with the, with the fees collected?
And, well, and there was, there was the airdrop.
Right?
And, and I, I saw some, you, you pulling some volumes also on the Twitter and people are
very excited.
I think you came from the underdog to being, let's say like most popular, one of the most
popular platforms on, on Osmosis as of now.
Probably just in terms of daily active users, you know, we're the, the most popular third
party application on Osmosis, you know, besides for the, their flagship decks.
Um, but, uh, the, um, you know, I would, I'd say we're, we're still very much an underdog.
You know, we're, um, we've got about 11,000 users in total.
Um, we've done about, uh, $900 million of trading volume since we launched about four
months ago.
Um, and, you know, recent volume with this recent price run, it's been, you know, it's
been pretty good.
Uh, the protocol has generated a little over a million dollars in fees, which have been
distributed to, um, Osmosis community members and, um, primarily Osmosis community members.
And, um, you know, we're just excited to, uh, launch the governance token.
Uh, you know, the, the government's token is, is technically live, um, you know, and, uh,
a little, a little bits of airdrops, uh, have been kind of teased out, but the, you know,
the target is next week to be able to airdrop, uh, you know, obviously there's a million things
going on.
Um, and a lot of, uh, coordination that has to happen.
So we're targeting the 18th and, you know, we, we hope that we'll, uh, get as close to
that as possible.
But yeah, in, in general, I mean, it's been a crazy, you know, it's been a crazy three years
of, of building this thing and it's been a crazy, you know, three months kind of going
from, uh, it being live and, you know, having, you know, 20 users to, you know, to, to breaking
the 10,000 user mark.
Do, do you have some, some data?
So, um, I think we are like all, all aware, like, uh, that not all of the users, um, are
real, right?
Like, but 10,000, regardless of that, that's, that's great number.
But do you maybe have the data of the traders that don't come and do one, two trades and leave?
But do you have maybe data of the active traders that participate constantly on Levana?
Sure.
We've got about an 80% retention rate, meaning that, um, of, you know, of a hundred people
that come and make their first trade, um, you know, roughly 80%, or maybe I think it's
to make their second trade, 80% of them make their third trade.
Uh, I don't have the numbers in front of me, so don't, don't quote me on it, but it's,
it's incredibly high and we're seeing about 300 unique traders a day.
Um, so if you kind of, uh, skim off the top of like the, you know, the fluff, um, then there's,
there's, you know, uh, there's, uh, on a monthly active, uh, base, there's a few thousand traders
that, um, are really enjoying the product.
And, you know, I would say, I don't know how much of Cosmos as a whole is, um, you know,
kind of like, uh, people that are, you know, uh, you know, they're not, they're not necessarily
users, but maybe they're airdrop hunters or, you know, or they're, they're doing, you
know, some other kind of, uh, mechanisms, uh, just to kind of, uh, profit tangentially off
of the applications.
But, um, in terms of core users that are actually making it to, that are trading on the platform
to, to make trades, you know, it's a, it is, um, it's, it's a pretty large percentage.
You know, I think we're, we're seeing a few thousand of them every month.
And, and do you mind sharing because, um, the volume and obviously, uh, the, the fees are,
are growing, right?
And, uh, it's, it's expanding.
Of course, we are, we are hitting a little bit of the, of the bull market right now.
Uh, do you have maybe month to month grow in the, in the volume, which also, um, be, is,
is being reflected on the fees collected.
So if you can also give like maybe, uh, volume for the last 30 days and how much, uh, Levana
was able to, to collect the fees from that.
Uh, it's, it's good questions.
Um, my, I'm not on mute.
So I'm pulling up on our stats page to see what numbers that we have.
Just kind of out of the box.
Um, and I think we've got, uh, specifically the fees for the past 30 days, but I'm going
to pull it up.
Um, and in terms of just overall growth, you know, just shooting from the hip, we were doing
about maybe two to $3 million of trading volume a day, you know, two months ago.
Um, and today we're, we're averaging, I think around, um, $10 million a day.
So fees collected in the last 30 days is, uh, 500,000, uh, 20, 524,000.
So about half a million dollars were collected by the protocol in the last 30 days.
Um, sorry, like, uh, can you repeat the number of the, of the fees?
Half a, so in total, since we launched four months ago, there's been 1.14 million dollars
in fees in the last 30 days.
There was 0.5 half a million.
So half a million that's, that's insane.
Yeah.
And I, I think people are aware, but like those who are not aware, um, those fees are mainly
distributed, um, to the, to the people who provide the liquidity on the, on the Levana platform.
Right.
So there's half million dollars.
Right.
So there's half million dollars.
And, uh, I think it's fair to say that as of now, this is most profitable application
within the cosmos ecosystem, right?
Like, because I know we have the AMM's Texas.
They do not generate that match of the, they generate a lot of fees, but not all of the fees
are distributed to the, um, to the actually participants.
So if that was half million dollars in the fees, that means $350,000 was distributed to
the providers of the, of the liquidity on the Levana platform while 150 K went to Levana itself.
Right.
So congratulations, Jonathan.
Jonathan, I, uh, I think you are in much better position than when you were starting.
Yeah.
Uh, absolutely.
It's actually that those fees that are the protocol fees that actually provides the liquidity
for the 25, or I think it's 27 now markets that we have on the protocol.
So if you look, we've gone from having three or four different assets listed, uh, you know,
of, um, uh, what was it?
Uh, um, Adam, Bitcoin, uh, uh, uh, bridged ETH and maybe one or two others.
Um, to now we've got, um, you know, we have Forex assets, we have synthetic assets.
We've got, you know, you can go, if you look on the trading page, you'll see on the top left,
uh, uh, you know, over 25 different assets.
And so it's been really exciting to be able to grow and to be able to take the protocol
fees and then fold them back into the application to allow new markets to be created, which then
in turn bring on more protocol fees.
So it's, uh, it's an amazing flywheel that, uh, we didn't expect to happen so quickly, but
in, uh, you know, at the, at the same time, I think that, uh, it's, it's really being, uh, uh,
leveraged to just increase the amount of adoption that we, that we have in the market.
Yeah.
I, I actually wasn't sharing that before.
Uh, but, but I will, you know, I, um, this, this is also, this, this is risky, um, because,
uh, but it's interesting approach of, of Levana, uh, you know, providing liquidity is risky.
So for those who are not sure how it works, you, you provide the liquidity and, um, you're
trading against the traders, right?
Because that money that traders win comes from somewhere.
It comes from you as the liquidity provider, or as they lose, it comes to you.
So ex not only fees, you not only generate the fees, but you also generate the losses of
the, of the people.
And according to the Levana data that we have, uh, the, the traders are losing, right?
That's, that's always the case.
It might not be the case for the month to month, but in the long term, our traders are losing.
So there's more money distributed to those, those, um, liquidity providers.
And I was doing this myself.
Like, so, um, I was doing this on BYDX and I was quite lucky within three days.
I increased my, um, my, my USDC by 20%, right?
Uh, but that's pretty amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But at the same time, I was also providing liquidity to, to, uh, rune.
And in the moment where it was going from, from, uh, five to seven.
So then I got wrecked on rune, but I held it a little longer and it actually like start balancing.
Right.
So, um, yeah, like many people are, are being scared, you know, when the markets are volatile,
but I, I think it's good to, um, to be aware of that.
Um, how much is the locked in the liquidity?
If you got that data.
Um, there is today in, uh, in the protocol itself, there's, I think roughly $13 million.
But, um, in terms of, uh, specifically the XLP buckets, which have a 45 day linear unlock.
I, I think last time I saw it was about a third of that.
So I would guess, you know, somewhere around, uh, four or $5 million, um, are locked over a long period of time.
And, uh, the rest is, uh, deposited.
Um, you know, but is, uh, is liquid capital.
Yeah.
And, um, I, I have one question about the, uh, your app security, the financial security.
But before I get to this, I, I think we need to get some, uh, voice to metal.
Uh, so, so he doesn't feel to be, to be leftover.
And I want to learn a little bit about the data of, of NOLUS.
I, I think it's more difficult to see the TVL of data, the number of users and, and so on of, of NOLUS.
I know NOLUS is, is expanding and soon we're going to have, uh, this on more networks.
Uh, you know, to me it's, it's perfect niche because how NOLUS works, it allows you to borrow more than you provide.
Right.
The downside is, but this has to be the downside that you have the money locked within the protocol.
But if you can leverage that, borrow more promising assets for you, you can provide liquidity.
So you can essentially expand your position because you can, um, you can borrow more.
And those who provide, uh, those who provide liquidity in form of us, uh, USDC, uh, they earn the, the, the protocol fees.
Is that correct?
So yeah, uh, maybe just go a bit, uh, give a bit of a background.
So you've, yeah, you've mentioned that lenders, they provide stable coins.
So they earn what, basically they earn real yield in the form of, uh, USDC, axle or USDC.
That is coming from the, what the borrowers pay as interest and they earn extra rewards in NOLUS.
So currently we, as you, uh, uh, uh, the lenders APY is, uh, around like, uh, it's like 10% real in, uh, real yield USDC.
And with additional 30, 13%, I think in NLS rewards.
And this is, uh, possible because, um, right now, uh, we, we have like the, this automatic deposit suspension cap, which, uh, basically takes care of, uh, uh, not having, uh, much more, uh, many more lenders compared to borrowers in the system.
So, uh, currently this cap is, uh, this cap is, uh, at 65% utilization ratio.
So once the utilization drops below that level, new, new deposits are prevented in the system, which basically helps, uh, keep this, maintain this high, uh, percentage, uh, of yield more or less.
And yeah, you mentioned that, uh, borrowers, um, they basically like lock their, uh, their assets in, uh, in, uh, uh, in this, in their borrow positions.
And it's more or less, uh, this more or less resembles like a cross chain margin, uh, long on, on that asset.
Uh, but of course here you have like the added flexibility because that, uh, that asset is like a real asset.
So you, more or less, you, as a borrower, you come, you provide a deposit and you take up to 150%, uh, from Nolos as a loan.
And then your deposit and the loan provided by the system, they get transferred in the background to an integrated DEX, uh, say it's MOSES, and, uh, they get swapped to a desired asset.
So you have like a real underlying asset.
So, uh, uh, in that case, you can pretty much extend that model further by, uh, utilizing that, those assets in the position in certain strategies to like earn yield, for example, of course, these needs, uh, these strategies need to be, uh, safe for the protocol, uh, in order to, uh, so, so that the protocol is able to liquidate those funds.
So, uh, should the need arise, uh, and yeah, this is like a more conservative way to leverage your portfolio because you can like borrow up to like 150%.
I mean, uh, uh, uh, yeah, you, you're not like a perpetual platform where you can leverage like 10 to 20, uh, 20, uh, uh, X your, uh, what you deposit.
So, and of course, this is especially like, uh, helpful, uh, in scenarios where, yeah, the market is kind of volatile.
So the prices go up, but at some point they, uh, there, there might be a drawdown.
So, uh, uh, uh, in, in, in that case, uh, you're more or less protected, uh, in a way, but of course that's, uh, uh, the upside is, uh, uh, more or less, uh, yeah, it's not that much.
If you like, uh, uh, uh, use some, uh, 10 and 20, uh, 20 X, uh, perpetual platform and the price simply goes up, uh, but it's, uh, more risk averse strategies, uh, strategy for, for a borrower.
Definitely.
So it's, uh, like a different type of product product that has benefits.
Uh, something else that's, I think it really interesting with these types of money markets is that they can actually directly be used, um,
um, uh, with perps in order to create a, uh, cross margin.
Whereas if I have, you know, a bunch of different assets that I was to, you know, deposit into NOLIS, um, that I could all draw from a credit account, um, you know, some type of unified asset, like a stable coin.
Then, um, there, there, there can be a flow created where, um, users open up perps positions directly from, you know, a NOLIS user interface, because what would be happening in the background is I might put in, you know, uh, I might put in, uh, like some Bitcoin and, um, uh, some neutron and some atom and, and other assets.
And then that gives me a certain amount of credit.
And then if I'm, you know, if I want to go long 10 X on Tia, uh, there's the potential for integration where I would just, um, you know, if I wasn't using anything on my NOLIS account, I'd be just earning interest as a lender.
And then if I wanted to, to take that credit and then open up a leverage long position, uh, I, I would be able to do that directly from the, you know, potentially directly from the, the NOLIS UI and in the background, it would be drawing capital from my, um, from my credit account and then using that to open up a perps, um, which would either be located on the same chain or located on a different chain, you know, through ICS.
So I think there's a lot of, uh, I think we're in the early stages of like the, um, the design space of how, um, you know, lending protocols and leverage protocols, um, can be used to enhance each other's user experiences.
Yeah, I definitely agree.
There, uh, there can be like many elaborate, uh, DeFi money legos basically built on top of, uh, uh, such protocols.
Like one, uh, one, uh, idea that is also possible is, uh, having sort of like a Delta neutral strategy where you like long on a NOLIS and then you short, uh, Levana.
And if the, if the funding, uh, funding rate there is like, uh, pleasant for shorter.
So that, uh, at that moment, so you, you, you more or less have like this, uh, Delta neutral position where you, uh, when you, where you earn basically from, uh, from that.
And, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh
way. So there are multiple ways in which those two models can be combined together and even
extended beyond that. Pretty interesting times ahead.
Meto, do you mind sharing maybe the volume of users in the recent months? Did you see
the change of your platform with this changing market because we keep track, of course, of
the wallets, more speak wallets that are utilizing our lending market. So whether they be like
lenders or borrowers. And yeah, we feel like in the recent months, we've seen like a surge
in the numbers. For example, like from October to November this year, like the number has
like is more than 100% more active users. And the interesting part is here that we're now
for December, we're like halfway through December and we're more or less eight. We have like
80% or 85% of the active wallets from last month. So with this space, we expect this number
to rise even further. And of course, this is reflected as well in the TVL that we have currently.
So it's around 3.5 million and it's going up steadily. Yeah, we have, I believe, 1.6 million
supplied and out of which 1.04 million is borrowed. So there are like 63% utilization at the moment
of the funds, which is quite healthy. Of course, as mentioned earlier, new deposits are prevented
from entering the system below 65% to prevent dilution of the lender's seal. And yeah, we played
like a slow and steady kind of race. But yeah, the direction is upwards, which is important.
And there was one thing I noticed that, you know, especially for those who still played
safe, who, for those who completely want to refuse the token action, right? Those who don't
really want those 3x that just happened in the recent months, and they are very happy with
the stable coin yield, right? I see that also increased, you know, initially from like, what
I what I saw that yield was oscillating for like, in around 5% for the for the USDC. And
of course, there was around 15% incentives coming from NOLUS. But I see it's, it's at over
10% now. Right? Yes. And could you could you explain the like, the change of that? Like, what
is happening within the protocol that those who provide earn more fees? Can you can you tell
us? Yeah. So I'll refer to this utilization threshold that we have for for the new lender's
suspension from entering the system. So initially, we've had this set at 50%. But due to the ongoing
0% initiative that we have for for the borrowers, so borrowers currently are paying 0% interest
until the end of January, we decided that it would be nice to propose government to have a
finance proposal to raise that deposit suspension cap to like 65%, which meant that new lenders
were practically prevented from entering the system until until funds enough funds were borrowed
for leases. So as so for a certain period of time, there were there were no new lenders
entering the system. And borrowers simply like went up in in numbers. So this brought this
utilization threshold even higher, even higher than 65% afterwards. So this, of course, affected
the the person the percentage which the lenders earn because borrowers like originally without
this 0% initiative, they pay interest between 12 and 18% fixed. So this interest is the is fixed
for the duration of the position that they have. And of course, if new people kind of enter when
the interest is high, this, of course, gets direct to the to the lenders and they they earn more.
So that's like the primary reason for for for for this jump.
Thank you. Jonathan, I wanted I wanted to ask, I told you about the the security, right?
So so let's let's tap into this a little bit. You know, there is different model and I think it's worth
to talk a few weeks ago, we had the certain exploit within the YDX and before anyone freaks out about the exploit.
It wasn't the exploit that the wallet was compromised. But with the protocols like perhaps there is like actually a lot of well, a lot of different way economic exploit.
So like we could say it like this, you know, you can manipulate the market a certain way.
If it's more profitable for you to leave the highly leveraged trade and if it's cheaper for you to manipulate the market, you can get a lot of money. Right.
So to give example, imagine someone is shorting with very big leverage the position and that position would give you five million dollars, let's say.
And then you proceed to selling the large position on the market that will cost you three million dollars.
Right. You benefit two and and and you can drain the funds this way.
And and the YDX fund, if that was what happened, if I'm getting correctly into this, am I speaking correctly about this, Jonathan?
Yep. Yeah, yeah. That's the it's the spot market attack on leveraged markets.
So it's right. And it's not it doesn't it's not something that only exists on crypto.
I mean, this is an attack that has plagued the markets, you know, since bucket shops opened up, you know, in the 1920s in America, like in Chicago.
So that, you know, these same things would be, you know, telegrams sent between, you know, people trading in bucket shops in Chicago and people on Wall Street.
And with penny stocks, you'd be able to do this exact same attack.
So it's it's not something that's that that's new, but it is something that is, you know, a challenge when you work in the leverage space.
Yeah. And I think you might be the one, you should be one that I know of, because YDX has concentrated pool.
Like, can I say concern? Like, it's one pool. Is that the pool for the trading? Maybe they are changing now.
I don't know of the other protocols. Are there any other protocols that separates those pools?
I'm not familiar with any. I mean, this was something definitely when we went into the design of Levana of of using segregated markets in order to protect contagion risk against market manipulation on individual markets.
This was something that was novel and hadn't existed in the past.
But and again, you know, it has a lot of roots in TradeFi in just, you know, having areas where there would be desks that only dealt with, you know, Latin American assets.
And there would be desks that only dealt with, you know, European assets and desks that only dealt with commodities.
And some of the reason for this was to to minimize that contagion risk.
But what's, you know, been very popular within crypto and as you said, like with DYDX and with GMX and, you know, with a lot of the other protocols is that they just have they have a unified liquidity pool and they have a unified risk fund or insurance fund.
And and that makes that that requires an exchange to be incredibly conservative about the assets that are going to be listed or contrary wise, they can be incredibly risk on and they can just have, you know, 100x leverage markets on every altcoin that you could ever imagine.
And then it's, you know, it really is just like a ticking time bomb until there's one market that wins so much that it just drains every other platform.
And you can even see the the in the terms of service, like on DYDX, they explicitly mentioned this as as a feature, you know, it's not even a bug.
It's it's like a feature where they say, look, the backstop of of one market running away is going to be an insurance pool.
The insurance pool is centralized and it's controlled by us to, you know, in our investors.
And and if that's not enough, then we're going to take from traders collateral.
So you as a trader on platform, you know, on not just DYDX, but many platforms, you as a trader really are are are in many cases unbeknownst to you.
You're acting as an insurance mechanism toward the solvency of the platform.
Yeah, so so so you explained quite a lot because I was aiming to to to everything like what's unique about Levana, every pair is separated.
So if there is like manipulation of the pair, I don't really imagine the manipulation because, you know, the size of this pulse is not really that huge.
So I don't think that that would an attack would make sense, but those are separated.
Right.
And also traders are allowed to trade the leverage that that liquidity on certain pair allows them.
So, OK, you cannot go to very niche pairs and like leave really huge position.
But what's important, the platform will not crack.
Right.
Or the platform will not have financial issues and so on, which is which is really good solution here.
Right.
But yeah, as I said, you explained it all if if you want to add something to this.
Well, I think the you know, from the tech perspective, people people don't really understand how Levana grew so quickly to such a great volume.
And and I can appreciate why, because when you come to the Levana website, it looks pretty much just like every other perps.
But if you look at the other perps, at least within the Cosmos ecosystem and and also within many of the other like a layer two ecosystems, like if you go outside of like the top 10 or maybe the top 15, you know, it's kind of like everybody is like a little mom and pop shop.
You know, like it like people are trading like kind of small bags and each each purpose is trying to just kind of like find it for like a little niche.
But none of them have sorry, there's a bus going past me.
Just stop here.
So let me move.
None of none of the perps, at least the Cosmos perps, the Cosmos homegrown perps, DY DX excluded, have really been able to attract the interest of more sophisticated and larger bag holding participants.
And that's because when you're trading with, you know, even if you're trading with just hundreds of thousands of dollars on leverage, you know, a measly hundred thousand dollars.
So I see that facetiously, then you're still coming with some level of professionalism and some level of understanding of, you know, what are my risks?
And you do a little bit of homework.
And we've had numerous, you know, prop traders, you know, professional traders that are active within the Cosmos ecosystem contact us and say, hey, I've been reading your white paper.
I read your risk model. I have some questions.
You know, could we could I could my analyst sit down and talk to you?
And those are the types.
And it's it's kind of like they're snuffing us out because they're looking for a product where they can trustlessly trade at scale on some of these more exotic markets like leverage on TIA or, you know, some of these, you know, even like ST Atom.
I think we're the only venue that you can leverage trade ST Atom or real Yield ETH.
And and so they want to understand how it works.
And then once they dive into it, they like what they hear.
And so then they come back and they just keep trading.
And it's, you know, and I think that that's that was a little bit of the philosophy after we went through the crash of Terra was let's actually build something that is far more resilient to
both the glory of a bull run and the tragedy of a market crash.
Let's build something that's just going to survive it and is not going to just become insolvent and then, you know, either go out of business or require, you know, VCs to bail it out.
And and it's still evolving, you know, that I think Levana has gotten a lot better in the past four months than it did.
You know, then then the original product that we built, you know, there's been a lot of tweaking to some of the underlying math underneath it to improve things based on real world data and cross checking the real world metrics versus like the you know, the the metrics, the the the projected performance.
You know, from different modeling that we did over the past year.
And it's just been a really amazing experience to kind of see the theory come to market and then to see other professionals appreciate what we built and then actually put their money where their mouth is and do, you know, make large positions and and seemingly enjoy what you know what's been built.
You know, I was I was just checking checking platform and and it's quite interesting.
Like, I think it's like very unique platform because I many others have the certain trending pairs.
But like I was surprised, for example, PIF, considering how many people in Cosmos received the airdrop like that.
They didn't seem very keen on speculating on that.
Right. Solana is built up quite well, but there is some pairs that are not as popular, you know, despite.
Do you have maybe info on like which pairs are most popular?
Obviously, I know there will be BTC, Atom, ST, Atom.
Beyond that, like, do you have some alternative pairs that like are surprised to you?
I think the Solana market was particularly surprising.
Also, I think the injective market was surprising.
We have a native injective market and we also have a synthetic injective market.
So it's been interesting to kind of see how those have been growing.
And and what, you know, the where we launched also to Forex's, which have gotten kind of like mediocre success.
You know, there's a few dozen traders that are very dedicated to those markets.
But we will, you know, we, you know, the ones that you mentioned, those are definitely the flagship.
And I think that if you go to any venue, whether it's any exchange, any, you know, purpose platform,
you're always going to end up seeing kind of like the same familiar faces, you know, in the top five or the top ten.
But I think that the the staked assets are things that have been particularly interesting to us.
And it could be that it's just the DNA of the cosmos ecosystem.
So I'm actually I'm curious just to kick the same question over to Nolis.
Nolis, what, you know, what are the most popular even in terms of size and volume by you guys?
Yeah, that's quite a good question.
So, yeah, I currently have the actually the numbers in front of me.
So for I mentioned earlier that we can you hear me, guys?
Yeah, I can hear you fine.
Oh, okay. Okay. So, yeah, we currently have, as mentioned earlier, a bit over a million in active loans.
So the most basically the most popular assets that that people like to lease is ST Atom.
It's like over 200 K out of the that those 1 million in loans go to for ST Atom these positions.
And here the second the the most interesting thing is that the second most least asset is act a cash.
And that was actually I think we were like, I think the first protocol that allowed leverage on act.
So maybe that's something that also helped.
So we've had like act for quite a bit of time now.
And it stands at like 130 K in loans.
And afterwards, it's TIA and wrapped Ethereum.
So the these are like the top four most least or borrowed like assets on NOLUS.
And yeah, the least the least popular ones are secret and STK Atom.
And as we talk about these pairs, you know, it's no secret that NOLUS is expanding. Yeah.
So the the Osmosis was the was the native NOLUS market.
Yes.
And you are going beyond.
And can you talk about this?
Yes, of course.
Which networks you are planning ahead? Is it just one or is more?
So for the time being, we are working hard on integrating with Neutron and Astroport on Neutron since Astroport is the main index there with the most liquidity.
So we would be like initially we will be integrating assets such as core leasing, such as NTRN, DYDX on Astroport.
I believe they even have like more liquidity than on Osmosis.
So that's like an interesting asset that that we expect the community would be, of course, very interested in.
And we would support also Atom and ST Atom there.
So yeah, this is like in the near term.
Of course, we are looking into afterwards expanding this model further.
And actually, with this integration, we are not only integrating Neutron as like a second network that we're supporting, but we're making the process, the overall process of integrating future Cosmos networks much, much easier and simpler.
So yeah, we will be looking into like other potential candidates afterwards.
So at the moment we're 100% focused on delivering this.
So that's like, yeah, and you are you are talking about the, you know, about the certain markets being popular.
I think it's the the the Neutron will be quite neutral.
And I think this is really interesting because you will, you know, it's it's no secret.
That's where the Ethereum liquidity is being built.
And there's really deep Ethereum liquidity.
And I think it's worth leveraging this part because I think like, you know, the.
Well, Neutron and Nolus on Neutron, I believe you want to tap mainly into that Ethereum liquidity, not only not only Ethereum, but there is also, of course, Lido Ethereum.
Wrapped NFT ETH.
Yeah, exactly.
Is that the main play here?
Are there other assets that seem very interesting to Astroport?
So if you like go to Astroport, you can see that there is currently like quite a big pool with Lido as the Rido stake, Lido stake ETH and Ethereum.
So we expect to see another pool, which is with USDC because as you as you know, like Nolus supports only like stable coin deposits.
So you need to have like a path to that asset from a stable coin.
So once there is like sufficient liquidity with a stable asset to Ethereum or wrapped Ethereum or Lido stake Ethereum, yes, we would support that.
And I believe this is in the pipeline for the folks at Neutron to like have this deep, deep liquidity pool.
Yeah.
But initially it's like NTRN and NTRN, DYDX, ATOM, STATOM.
Those would be like most probably the assets.
Oh, yeah.
I almost forgot about DYDX.
Yeah.
But that's the issue.
Yeah.
Like I think the Ethereum was done in purpose to build that liquidity on the power pair between STIF and ETH.
But obviously we need the pair, either it's STIF with USDC and I think that will come soon, soon enough.
So we will see the deep liquidity there.
Obviously the deepest liquidity in Cosmos for DYDX is on Astroport for those who wonder when they have a lot of DYDX.
So you will be able to leverage your DYDX tokens on NOLUS as well.
Of course, you can trade DYDX now futures on Nirvana.
Also like on that side, we still have the old pairs like ATOM and so on.
But also like beyond Neutron, like because you said you integrate in Neutron and you want to make it, it will make it easier to integrate the future networks.
Right. So as I think of Astroport right away and Astroport is also on Luna.
It's, you know, the second deepest liquidity is on Luna.
So I would assume the future plans, of course, I don't want to go too much ahead in the dreaming here, but I would assume after Neutron probably we see Luna, right?
And then we can leverage Luna on NOLUS.
Your assumption is close to the close to the truth.
Yes. So Astroport is in fact on Terra.
So an integration with Astroport and there is I can think of like the most, the easiest step because you basically have everything in place.
So yeah, but of course we have yet to like, like come up with an announcement, come out with an announcement on what exactly the next, like the third integration, the third integrated network will be.
But yeah, I'm also curious, just as a builder in this space.
And I don't know if any of you have a hard stop, but, but I'd love to be able to get some question and answer time in here.
And it's, I'm curious to hear, so I guess this is me asking a question, you know, what type of overhead do you have from launching on multiple chains?
Because I know on the Levana team that it's often, oftentimes the, you know, the devs kind of feel overwhelmed, you know, deploying or trying to deploy on so many different chains.
You know, we've, we've, we've built on Juno and on Say and on Injective and Osmosis and, you know, we've, you know, we've played around on the test nets for, for Neutron and for Celestia.
And there's a considerable amount of just like time and effort and DevOps to deploying on multiple places.
And in many cases, you know, it can be worth it because you'll pick up extra users and, you know, you'll, you'll be able to get the liquidity on that chain.
But in, you know, and the counter side to that is that it's, it takes away a lot of effort and focus and, and detracts from actually making the product better.
So I'm, I'm curious if any of that resonates to you.
Yeah.
So I'll, I'll probably get a bit more technical here, but I'll try to like simplify it in a bit.
So as you, as we know, NOLOS utilizes IBC and interchain accounts to communicate with all of those integrated networks.
So NOLOS doesn't have to like deploy its contracts to all of those chains.
Like the, we first need to like cap this so, so to speak prerequisites before deploying, before integrating a new network.
And these are like primarily, is it like an IBC network?
Does it support interchain accounts?
Yeah.
And of course, because NOLOS uses interchain accounts, those accounts need, need to be able to send corresponding messages to swap, let's say the desired asset on the, on the decks.
And you need to, more or less the chain needs to have this, those messages in the interchain accounts host allow list, so to speak.
And yeah, like one of the reasons that we kind of, yeah, decided to go with a slower pace is because we wanted to also abstract away kind of this integration process overall.
So we kind of, we more or less have, for every integration, we simply need to deploy a set of protocol contracts on NOLOS.
And basically those contracts are related to that specific DEX integration.
And they simply need from, from there on, they need to be aware of the message that needs to be like sent to the desired integrated DEX on that other networks, supported network.
And yeah, and then need to register the channels that, the IBC channel that would be created with that network.
And it's good to, it's a matter of testing from, from there on.
And of course to, yeah, integrate the assets in the, in the Oracle system that we have.
But this is something that we've managed to kind of boil down to a stepwise process, so to speak.
More or less.
And then it's a matter of governance proposals to also make the community aware of, of those steps and to take part actively in this integration.
That's a great answer.
It's a, and what I, what I hear in between the lines with all of that is, is it's complicated and it takes a lot of work, but we do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, it's, it's, yeah.
It's, I think it's important to kind of build your code in a way such that like, it would be easier afterwards to expand with new functionalities and new integrations rather than, yeah, having to like maintain your, yeah.
If you have like a pretty, if you have like a, if you do it in a too complex way, so to speak, you then have like, usually you have hard times building on top, building on top of what you created.
So we can get quite messy.
So we wanted to do it in a way such that the whole process is more or less modularized, so to speak.
And you, you simply have to plug in the new integration and from there on make the necessary adjustment in parameters and you're, you're good to go.
And so, uh, we expect from here on to have like a quicker, uh, go to market, uh, for upcoming, uh, integrations.
So, um, Jonathan, I want to ask you because your most popular market is, is Osmosis.
So obviously I would be curious if you also plan to launch on, on Neutron.
Um, but that was quite surprised, you know, Levana mark, sorry, not, uh, injective markets are not very popular.
And I was thinking may it, do you think it could be due to the fact that, uh, it's not future.
So it's not paired with like, um, in USDC, uh, because I think then you could actually are, you know, do some arbitrage with like, uh, Helix.
But I don't see those being very expanded.
Is there like more plans around these other networks, like, uh, trying to expand injective or your main focus is like, uh, Osmosis for, for now?
Because I see there is also some proposal on Osmosis.
So I would, I would assume you, you, the plans are to align yourself more with, with that network.
Is that, is that correct what I'm getting?
Yeah.
So I think, um, in terms of, uh, where the most of the spot trading is happening, um, on Cosmos, uh, I, I think it's accurate to say that most of it is happening on Osmosis decks.
And so that's where we want the Levana token to have the largest amount of liquidity.
Um, also the, most of our users on Osmosis, um, we've paid, you know, out almost a million dollars to, to, uh, users of Levana on Osmosis.
Since we launched.
Um, and, uh, so there's, there's just a lot of natural alignment from the, the overlap there.
Um, we also, uh, recognize that, uh, you know, that there's, um, a lot of value in terms of, uh, just technical focus.
We, we actually, to answer your question to you, cause it was a two part question.
What was about injective?
Um, so the, you know, we, we, I mean, uh, the, the central order book, like chain level order book that injective has, um, is very, um, uh, enticing.
And, uh, I think that there's a lot of merit there and, uh, osmosis does not yet have a similar mechanism.
I don't think anybody else has a similar mechanism.
Maybe, maybe Kajira does.
I don't know if Finn is, um, uh, or mint, uh, is, um, is, is, is on the mempool level, um, or if it's fully on chain, but, uh, maybe you would know more about that, uh, Don.
But, um, what we found was that we launched, uh, BTC USDT market.
Um, and, uh, we launched, uh, a BNB USDT market exactly with the same philosophy or thought process of what you just described is that, Hey, look, the funding rate's going to be different.
There's going to be, uh, different opportunities, um, to be able to hedge.
And, uh, it just didn't pan out, you know, users didn't bite.
And now it could be that we just did a bad job marketing it.
It could be that, um, we, uh, you know, with that, that, uh, that, that there just, it was a bear market.
It could have been a million different reasons, but at least to date, um, we have not been successful at, um, really just attracting the, the type of, um, interest that we would have expected on injective, um, outside of the actual
INJ market.
The INJ market is like on fire.
You know, everybody loves it.
Um, you know, we, we've, maybe I'll just pull up, uh, I'll tell you what some of the most recent numbers have been on that.
Um, and, uh, it's, hold on, my phone is loading right now.
Um, and, um, earn, and I go to settings.
If you're not familiar with where to find the stats, it's trade.levana.finance, um, forward slash stats.
And so I'm looking right now at the INJ market.
Um, yeah, what, over a million dollars traded, uh, on the INJ yesterday.
And now if we look at like the Bitcoin market on injective, there was $3,000 traded yesterday.
So, I mean, that's like, you know, it's 3%, um, of Bitcoin trading versus, uh, INJ trading.
So we, you know, it's, it's, you gotta kind of like recognize what the market values are, what they're interested in.
And they're definitely interested in trading INJ, um, much more so than, than, than trading other things, at least on Levano.
Um, okay, we are, we are approaching one hour.
So like, um, don't want to get too, too, too far ahead, um, of myself, but I wonder if there is like, we, we had some people.
So I want to, if you guys have time, five, 10 more minutes, uh, if there is some question that people want to ask Levano,
if you want to ask Jonathan from Levano, uh, if you want to ask Meto something about Nolus that maybe we didn't cover,
maybe you're curious, um, don't be shy.
Uh, you, you can just raise your hand and, um, I give you a voice.
So if, if you get some questions, meanwhile, if, if, if Jonathan, Meto, if there is something you wanted to cover
and we didn't cover, right, because I didn't ask or so on, um, please speak.
Well, I'll, I'll say one thing is, is that, uh, you know, Levano is, uh, uh, imminently launching a token and that token is, is minted on Osmosis,
which is another, you know, kind of long-term alignment with, uh, the Osmosis, uh, uh, uh, platform.
Um, you know, I'm curious, um, you know, about, uh, um, from Nolus's perspective, um, you know, governance, um, you know, having users primarily being on one chain, uh, what are your thoughts kind of about, um, how to, or, or maybe an advice that you might have as to how to best succeed as a, um, you know, as a, as a protocol.
As a protocol, that's not an app chain in an ecosystem that historically has been focused on app chains.
So, uh, yeah, uh, if, uh, I get the question right, you, you're mostly concerned about, like, uh, uh, governance around, uh, like, uh, in an app chain versus, like, uh, uh, governance utility in, uh, in, uh, on a protocol that is deployed on, uh, on a network among other protocols as well.
So, uh, uh, it's, uh, like, uh, it's, uh, like, uh, it's easier to, uh, like, to focus on, uh, uh, on one, on governance on an app chain rather than on, uh, uh, on a, on a protocol that, uh, is kind of, uh, shares this block space with other protocols as well.
Uh, so for us, uh, we, we think that, uh, uh, it's, uh, like, we've seen, like, a good activity around overall around in, uh, in governance participation in general from our validators, uh, on our app chain.
Because basically whenever there's, like, a governance proposal, we make sure to, uh, not only just publish it and, uh, and, uh, yeah, wait for the validators to notice it on the block explorer, for example.
But we also try to, like, communicate it actively with our community to kind of, uh, outline in, uh, uh, whether it be announcements or discussions, uh, the step-by-step, uh, process that we want to achieve with that governance proposal.
So, uh, we, we kind of, uh, uh, uh, really, uh, kind of, uh, uh, want to, like, uh, share some, as much details as possible in, in that governance proposal so that the community would know what the, uh, what the, the end result would look like.
So, uh, this has, like, proven to be, like, a good strategy for now, I think.
So, we have, like, uh, uh, uh, I believe good participation overall, uh, based on, uh, uh, the, uh, the stack that is participating.
Uh, so, yeah, I would say maybe, uh, like, the primary idea is to be, like, as, uh, uh, as transparent as possible with, uh, yeah, your, uh, community and the steps that would need to be, um, uh, out, uh, outlined.
And to make your community aware of what you're trying to, trying to achieve with, uh, a certain, uh, proposal.
Very nice. Thanks for taking the time to answer that.
If, if, if I can speak, I think, um, the, the rhetoric around the app chains is, is changing a little bit, right?
Uh, you can see, actually, osmosis, uh, from, from just being a DEX, right?
I, I think it's, uh, venturing more onto, like, DeFi protocol, right?
Like, uh, uh, it, it, it tried to deploy, actually, more, more products.
And I think Cosmos can actually ease the scale to that.
So, why you wouldn't use that, right?
Like, why you would focus on one thing if you can add up and increase your value.
So we have, we have osmosis, we have Kujira, and we have Neutron, I think these three, and, and then we also have Luna, right?
And, and then it's Astroport, which is like application being deployed and aligning themselves with, with, with, with certain other networks.
And I, I think that's like how we see the, that, that's a little different, um, on the different matter, but, uh, but I think we will see the, the app chains, but they will not be just focused on, on one single app, right?
Like, uh, it's, it's, uh, there's no reason for that unless, unless it's a very developed, uh, app already, uh, like the UIDX.
But I think it's like also very difficult for the UIDX now, it will be difficult to compete, um, to be honest, because we have so many options.
Well, I think the UIDX is going after a bigger pie.
The UIDX is saying, which I think is the right approach is like, they're not even like playing in the, in the cosmos sandbox.
They're like, we want to compete with Binance.
We want to get Binance users.
Like we don't care about Levante users or Osmosis users.
Um, let's go after, you know, so like, like one mediocre exchange, you know, tends to have more monthly active users than like the best app in the world.
And so it's, uh, I think, I think having the goalposts be in the right place, um, is the, the correct, uh, way to, to achieve success.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, we're over our, we didn't have the questions.
So other people as always probably were a little bit shy.
Uh, so I think we can wrap it up.
Uh, I hope the space is recorded.
So, so people can revert to this and, and listen to this.
Uh, I, I get the thumb up.
We get the thumb up from the knowledge.
If you want to release.
And, uh, very big, big, big, big, thank you to knowledge for, for hosting this space.
You know, I asked them if they can host.
I never feel like, um, I'm, I'm the good host.
Uh, I like to be the speaker, but, um, I think that's probably.
You're great.
I think that's the second order.
You're a scholar and a gentleman.
I, and I appreciate your time.
Thank you very much.
It's a lot of fun.
So, of course, big, thank you to, uh, to a Jonathan who is super responsive to the community.
I think it's like big wave of fresh air.
Um, you, you can see a lot of posts from Levana, something very novel that didn't happen that
much in, in Cosmos, you know, the airdrop announcement doing absolute massive news.
It's like 700 likes, 300 retweets and, and, and so on.
So, uh, I'm, I'm very happy with this new wave of DeFi that we have in Cosmos and, you
know, Levana and all those are, are surely on the forefront of that.
So thank you everyone.
And thank you.
All right.
All the best.
Bye.
See you guys.
Bye.
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