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Open & Free discussion (ENG/GR): #vechain, #VebetterDAO, prices etc.
Recorded: April 2, 2025 Duration: 1:31:09Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion highlights VeChain's growth and innovations, including the expansion into new markets and the development of VBetterDAO. Despite a decline in portfolio value, the community is optimistic about future impacts on price. Technical updates such as upcoming hard forks and changes in DAO structure are anticipated to enhance the ecosystem. The DAO is seen as a solution to centralization, with ongoing efforts to improve its functionality and governance.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Υπότιτλοι AUTHORWAVE Καλησπέρα.
Γεια σου, Πέτρο. Thank you.んおっえっ
ん Thank you. Υπότιτλοι AUTHORWAVE Good morning, boys. Hello, Kosta.
Hello, Petro.
I don't know if some of you are speaking in English.
Just in case if someone of you is English,
then we have to change the language.
Kostas, welcome again.
Let's wait a little bit for people to join.
Hi, everyone.
Hi, everyone.
It's a great pleasure that we have along with Petros.
Petros is a community manager of another project,
a very big project in Cryptosphere,
and a very good friend of our community as well.
and a very good friend of our community as well.
I think we are Greeks up to now, so we speak in Greek.
So in case that someone joins us from abroad,
then we have to exchange the language. Μισό λεπτό να μπουν και κάποιοι σιγά σιγά.
Κώστα είσαι στο δουβλίνο αυτή τη στιγμή Ναι ναι
Στο δουβλίνο
Με ακούτε καλά
Ναι πολύ καλά
Εδώ είναι ακόμα
Μέρα μεσημέρι
Ο ήλιος είναι ακόμα σηκέι
Έλα ρε εσύ
Πολύ ωραία, πάρα πολύ ωραία.
Λοιπόν, μισό λεπτό να στέλνω ένα pin and notify all members. Okay, so, okay, let's start then and then we will continue in case of someone.
Lipon, welcome.
Kryptonese, are you Greek or from UK?
Okay, just a moment.
Okay, just a moment.
Okay.
So, give me one minute, please.
Just one minute, please, and we will start.
Okay. Οκ.
Νομίζω ότι πρέπει να ξεκινήσουμε σιγά σιγά
Αν και είμαστε αρκετά λίγοι προς το παρόν
Αλλά μπορεί και να μπουν και άλλα παιδιά αργότερα
Γιατί είναι και η ώρα λίγο παράξενη
Λοιπόν καλώς ήρθατε σε ένα από τα πολλά meetings
Τα οποία κάνουμε εδώ πέρα στο X
είναι ως αποτέλεσμα της επικοινωνίας που έχουμε στο Telegram
ένα γκρουπ ανθρώπων γύρω στα 250 άτομα
και ότι είμαστε πολλοί, λίγοι είναι συμμετέχοντες
και ο λόγος είναι ότι...
Welcome Andrea, Andrea is from Italia. So we will exchange the language to English then.
So although we are a big group of people coming from Greece and dealing with the V-chain,
due to the current conditions, it's a little bit difficult to
attract and to discuss this situation
because as you probably know and you have noticed,
our portfolio is a little bit
in a very bad situation compared to
what we used to be four years before at the previous cycle.
However, VeChain has done a lot of work the last four years,
have faced a lot of challenges and have changed it completely
compared to what we have seen, what we were in four years before.
We cannot, I think we are a completely different project.
And although the price is not actually reflects
to what we have done as a project, as a foundation,
what we have done as a project, as a foundation.
I think it's a matter of time to see a huge impact and a huge shock to the price
since we all deal with this.
And since to the perfectly competitive prices, markets,
the price always reflects the situation of a company.
However, because we are living in a world, actually we are living in, we are dealing
in a market that's not perfectly accurate, we see a lot of imbalances, not only in VeChain,
but to many other projects.
And this comes before, actually, if we would like
to speak about the price, comes because of the fact
that it is a multilateral market. And the market, it's not actually, from my point of view,
is not regulated.
And since it is not regulated, the market does not follow some certain conditions,
conditions that used to investigate and to deal with the current, let's say, old markets
that we used to do up to till now.
So I think VeChain has done great things, and not only in the fact of the new DAO that has invented, but also in the fact that it has expanded
a lot their ideas and their position to the new developed markets, especially to the United
States and Europe. And I think the best is yet to come. And I think we will see great results
in the nearest future. The problem here is that we are correlated to Bitcoin. And Bitcoin always guarantee how it will go to this
year, to this current year.
I'd like to give the speech
to Costas. Costas Apostolopoulos
is one of the key members
in our community.
He works
full-time in
VeChain. He comes. He has a great CV, a great career. He lives
in Dublin right now. And it's a great pleasure for us to have him as a key factor to the community and to answer our main questions that we have in Telegram.
To be honest, I'm not so keen on with VBetterDAO compared to other guys in the business.
And I think it's a matter of time for all of us, for all Greeks, to understand what is DAO.
And to give a huge shock and spend a lot of money and spend a lot of our, let's say, capital and support this DAO.
Because it's something that we have to do,
not because we belong to VeChain, but it is something that has to do with sustainability.
And sustainability purpose is something that we will see in front of us very soon, more and more.
So, Kostas, please have the speech and say about support our group here.
Sure. So, quick introduction. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me here.
For those of you who don't know me, I'm the head of Node Operations at the VChain Foundation. I have a background in engineering. I've been working in essentially since 2006,
mostly in a big kind of corporate environments,
Fortune 500 companies.
But I kind of started working with blockchain technology as a hobby in 2016 when I started mining Ethereum.
Out of interest and curiosity, most of my time I spent setting up these mining rigs with graphics cards and so on.
And I participated in a few hackathons, writing some simple solidity scripts.
And then I made the decision to essentially make my hobby a career in 2022
by joining the VeChain Foundation as a senior DevOps engineer.
Since then, I can tell you,
WeChain has changed quite a bit, dramatically, I would say. We were going through a difficult phase in those first few months because we were essentially trying to migrate some workloads from
some workloads from a hostile Chinese market at the time into more safe and stable European and US regions.
Following the migration, we kind of expanded the team and we started building on some key infrastructure, I would say, key elements
that we believe that the foundation, the vision ecosystem was missing.
We started engaging with the community a little bit more actively.
not only the Greek community,
which is what you guys have been saying to me in Telegram
for some time now,
but also in a more kind of structured way.
We created a developer relations function.
Recently, we've been engaging with you through spaces,
through discourse website, and so on.
Now, I'll try to keep this introduction very brief and spend more time answering
questions if you have any. I have to do a disclaimer, though.
I'm a technologist, right?
I'm an investor in blockchain as well.
I do hold several coins,
but I consider myself an amateur investor.
I can speak about price.
I can tell you my personal opinion,
but by no means you should take this
opinion as a
advice or investment advice by any means.
I'm not here to give you my professional expertise on the price.
I'm here to tell you more about what we've been building in the Vision Foundation.
Answer any questions you may have around the products that we're building,
the DAO, the infrastructure,
and the upcoming hard forks.
All of these things I can potentially help you with. So with that being said, I'm open to any questions you may have.
George?
Yes, of course.
I have to introduce as well the Duster.io. This great guy is one of another key factor in our community. He deals a lot with videos and some reels that has to do with the crypto industry.
crypto industry and recently he did something that has to do with a green
card and he manages a lot of our videos for promoting the idea of
VeChain first of all and secondly the idea of VeChain Greece community. Please
Duster.io you have the speech to introduce yourself as well.
Are you probably Duster? Okay, probably he's not listening. I don't know.
You have to make him a speaker, right, George? I think he needs to request a message. You have to, he has to, he has to ask or I think.
Yeah.
But, oh, okay, request.
Please, Dasha, you can speak, I think.
Just a moment.
Dasha, speak.
Okay. Okay. okay yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes thank you uh so just to introduce myself, my name is Duster. Everyone in crypto space is calling me that.
So I am a content creator and educator about cryptocurrency from Greece.
I do create short form videos mostly for Instagram and for TikTok right now.
And I will go to YouTube soon.
At the same time, I'm trying to help a lot of people on board into crypto.
And this is why I got really, really, really excited when I got to know more about VBetterDAO and VeChain in general.
VBetterDAO and VeChain in general, because I think that they can work for us because
they can onboard people on crypto.
What I mean by that is that they're really simple apps, applications, and most of the time they are rewarding people for doing chores or tasks that they do every day. created a video about green card and people got really really really excited about that
as I as it showed with the numbers and how many people are registered after that video
and right now I will have to say that I am preparing more more tricks about green card and also the other apps that vBetterDAO has. It's really exciting and
I don't want to speak about any price. I want to speak about the amazing job that VChain is doing doing through the vBetterDAO and how it is developing.
And one thing that I must mention here is that I love that they listen to the community.
Every time that the community has a problem, they listen and they fix that problem. And that is something that everyone should look for in any project
that they want to get into, into crypto space.
Yes, thanks a lot Dastry for your communication. I have to tell now something that has to do with the DAO.
As you probably know, in DAO, there is a small community of people
that deals with...
It's a democratic community that deals with an organization
that deals with digital assets.
And as you probably understand that we have faced right now a major, let's say, problem.
The major problem is that one solution always brings another problem.
It is a major problem in economic history,
actually, in economics.
And always one solution brings another problem.
So as we move forward to the time,
and to 2025, a lot of new problems,
all the community tries to solve those,
tries to find out solutions
for making this DAO better and better.
But always the solution to each problem that arises
will bring another new problem.
So I'm telling this in the way that there is a lot of discussion right now in the DAO regarding
the VDelegate and all these aggregators that try to absorb energy in order to
to absorb energy in order to manipulate and get the most benefits from the weekly rewards
and weekly allocation of better tokens.
I'm telling this because since I am in this community of Xnode, I see very, very, very strong fight
against those aggregators and I am keen with this idea. But I think from my point of view,
I don't want to, of course, to disagree with the community, but I think from my point of view,
is that we will never sleep,
and we will never solve any kind of problem.
We will not solve all of our problems,
because as I said, each solution brings another problem.
I think we better is something very new.
It will be and I think it is a bet that VeChain will win.
If we go one year before, to be honest, I was a little bit scary when I saw that
honest, I was a little bit scary when I saw that, let's say, presentation of the flying cars from
VeChain Foundation, because I thought that at that time, VeChain, we were waiting four years
to deal with something very new, something very exciting. And when I saw that, I was a little bit distant. Of course, I am
a soldier in VeChain. I will keep my fight against
I will never
disagree that VeChain is a great project and Sunny Lou is
a great guy. He's
a great guru, actually actually in this cryptosphere.
And I fully support him and the foundation.
And one year after, in our days now, I see this foundation, this, let's say, this is
cryptosphere, this project to be a completely different project.
I see a lot of energy in our community.
Sorry, I see a lot of energy in our community.
And I see, of course, there's a huge disappointment in price.
But price is something that, as I said, we will fix it since the market will come again
and the FOMO will come again in our lives.
Then we will see the market to reflect what we have done, as I said earlier, all these years.
And I'm sure that everything will go well.
And I see something very, very, very important in VBetterDAO.
I see that it has a mechanism, a defensive mechanism.
And this defensive mechanism is something that we don't see very easily in other communities. An invasive mechanism that comes from our community,
from our active community.
Of course, the Greek community is not so keen on,
as I said earlier, to the DAO,
but it's a matter of time to start to understand how the market
acts and reacts. What is DAO actually? What is this democratic community organization?
And to be honest, I have to tell that a little bit I was very scary with some dabs that came to the DAO
in order to exploit the DAO and get advantage from the DAO.
And I saw that the community with good reflections, kick them out.
And I'm very happy, very happy on this.
Because I see that it is a healthy reaction.
Now, sorry, I don't have many things to say.
I think we have as well some...
If someone wants to speak about it,
it's a great pleasure that we have Mr. Weitling,
sorry, Mr. Weitleman.
This guy is a great researcher in the chain,
and especially in DAO.
And if you want Mr. Weitleman to take the speech
and say something, it will be an honor for us.
And, yeah.
Okay.
So, in any case, if someone wants to speak and say something.
Yeah.
Can I jump in here and say, so I have a couple thoughts.
First of all, what Tabster was saying earlier,
I think the DAO brings unique opportunities for
not just the Greek market, but globally.
It kind of promotes sustainable actions from the bottom up, right?
And it rewards users for doing you know just a little bit
living a little bit more sustainably that's that's the whole idea and also
for the Greek community specifically I would say there's a lot things to learn
and take from the governance side of the DAO. We've seen how corruption has
affected the Greek government and the Greek country essentially for the last 15 years or more.
And, you know, looking for answers in technology is something that I've been doing since the great financial crisis in 2008.
I've been trying to find a better way of doing things, a more democratic way, right?
And the DAO is one of those potential solutions to this problem where you don't centralize power around the government or a corporation or a person,
but rather you have a community and you distribute that power to
stewards and let's say you distribute it democratically to the community itself,
whether in our case it's X nodes or validators or whatever.
And that's what fascinates me the most about this project.
It's potentially something that can be applied not just to sustainability,
but in many, many other areas as well, whether it's politics or business or whatever.
ideas as well, whether it's politics or business or whatever.
Now, with regards to the bad actors that you mentioned, George, I'd say
this is inevitable to happen when you have a platform that
is designed to allocate value.
There will be those bad actors that will try to exploit
this and get more allocation, not necessarily by adding value to the ecosystem and creating
a virtuous cycle, but by trying to exploit and game the system. system, right? The good thing is, though, that the DAO has, like you said, mechanisms
to, you know, identify and expel those bad actors. And we need to be vigilant and we
need to continue doing whatever we can to safeguard this DAO. It's our responsibility
at the end of the day. There's no centralized authority that will do this for us.
That's the big task that the Xnode holders
and the validators have to essentially only endorse
those projects that add value to the ecosystem.
So those are some thoughts I had while you were saying your statement earlier.
Again, I'm not sure if anyone wants to share something else, some thoughts.
There is with us Crypto News.
This is another guy that deals with our community.
He's an economist and he deals with real economic markets and with the crypto market.
And if you want Crypto News to to speak the microphone is in you
please
ask for a join
okay probably
I don't know
one thing that i would like to note if you if i could right now uh is that um i really like
what costa said as well about the DAO and what you mentioned, George.
The thing that it is, I think, one of the best DAOs that I have seen that reject the bad factors.
They throw them away, they kick them out, and they don't let them harm the ecosystem.
I think everyone should know that and also one thing that
we didn't mention about v chain is that right now from what we saw and this is really important because not only
for the project but if i were to speak for the content creators there is some new rules that they don't let us talk about anything that it's not MIC compliant, actually.
And so that VChain that is MIC compliant, it is a great deal for us as content creators.
great deal for us
as content creators.
Okay, that's very...
Okay, Manos
Griparis has
the speech. Manos, you can speak
if you like and introduce yourself here.
Hello, everyone.
I'm Manos Griparis.
I'm the social media team
lead of CryptoNews.com for
seven countries and also regional manager
for four countries.
Also, I'm managing CryptoNews Greece.
I mean, I present the videos in the social media channels.
About trading, in 2024, I was actually the top performing trader on eToro.
At once, in around November,
I had around 450% performance after Trump won the elections
and the year ended with 250% performance.
So actually,
today we have the thing with the Trump tariffs
that is going to be announced in one hour and a half.
So as you saw, the economy is a bit down over the last three months.
And of course, this mainly has to do with tariffs
because Trump has his own issues about the US debt. But as you see, after November,
for example, we had a drop in US stocks. Actually, after December, let's say, after mid-December,
Bitcoin actually was not so much affected compared to the stock, but it was affected because we had a peak over 100,000.
And now we are at $86,000.
And in order to compare it with the U.S. stocks, if you can imagine, they had like today the NASDAQ 100 is at $19,450.
And this was the number that it had in September.
But about Bitcoin, actually today, Bitcoin has $86,000.
This was the price that it had after Donald Trump was elected in mid-November. So the US stocks were affected
mostly compared to Bitcoin. And of course, for anyone investing in altcoins, you see that
if we compare a year-to-year performance, we see that most of the altcoins right now have a minus in their yearly
performance but of course we expect to see what will happen with the tariffs the good point is
that since yesterday we saw a rise in nasdaq 100 so this means that this is going well
100. So this
means that this
is going well.
And we didn't expect that. To be honest,
I was expecting that
Bitcoin and Nasdaq
stocks would drop because actually they
go together. If you see this, since
2021, US
stocks and Bitcoin are
going almost together.
we saw a recover since yesterday,
although Donald Trump hasn't announced his tariffs
because this is going to be announced in one hour and a half, as we said.
So we will see how the market responds
because there are definitely going to be a lot of tariffs
in several industries.
Or Trump might keep it to minimum.
We don't know.
Definitely the automotive section
will be affected in companies like Tesla.
I have friends in the USA
that are buying cars those days
because they expect that the prices will go up.
So this actually was affecting positive the stocks
if you see we had prices increases in stocks like tesla today
but definitely we're going to see it i think after mid-april the market is going to be more
stable because in april 13th you can mark the date, the European Union is going
to announce the counter tariffs against the US companies.
So let's say that there is something like a small trade war, but eventually we all hope
that this is going to finish because Trump made the same thing to his previous four years.
So we expect this to finish and eventually we will see what will happen in
autumn and winter and what is going to happen with Bitcoin because we expect the four-year cycle
to reach to a peak maybe and we're going to have a crypto winter. We're going to see about this.
And because I need to make a video for Crypto News Greece
because we are waiting for Trump tariffs
I hope that
I can accept any questions first
and so that
let's say that I will
if you have any questions first
because I will need to
not stay for too long
okay, no problem, no problem, Manos.
What do you think actually regarding to the crypto market?
I think it's the worst bull market that we have seen in the whole crypto history.
history. And I see that of what they used to say that 500 days after the halving, we
always see the absolute top of the bull market. I see that this has been extended and probably
because of the macroeconomics and because of all this political uncertainty,
we might see a delay that will postpone this absolute top into 2026.
What is your opinion regarding this, since we speak about now the prices?
Okay, that's a good question. First of all, Bitcoin is reaching the peak every four years
and then it goes to the crypto winter and the peak is usually between November and January.
I mean this year's November and January. But now, of course, the market is
different because several companies, investors, and even countries are buying Bitcoin. So
MicroStrategy has more Bitcoin and Michael Seller is crazy. He's going to keep it. Countries have
more Bitcoin. BlackRock, Vanguard, and several big companies are creating Bitcoin ETFs. So the market is different and we don't know if this crypto winter kind of is going to be the same as the previous.
But if we look over the last, let's say, all the previous cycles, we had some good seasons where, for example, in 2013, we saw Bitcoin making 75X.
For example, in 2013, we saw Bitcoin making 75x.
2017, we saw Bitcoin making 19x.
And well, to be honest, people should understand that when an asset is rising over 1 trillion,
then the number of people holding that asset is way too much compared to the total population
that is actually investing
on this planet. And the same thing happens with stocks, for example, stocks that are surpassing
three trillion, like Microsoft, Apple, and we saw this with Nvidia, it's not rising like it used
before. So the good timing to buy an asset is like between when it has like some dozens of billions, let's say like 10 to 15 billions and above.
This is the same like with stocks and cryptos.
Well, with some actual differences. differences but anyway so this is a good period to buy an asset with the potential to reach
hundreds of billions or more than one billion more than one trillion so we should not expect
the the big performances that bitcoin had because right now it has 1.7 trillion
so this is one fact to to keep in mind And the other thing is that if we look in the previous cycle, in 2021, we should remember
that the Bitcoin had a peak in around April with, let's say, $57,000.
And suddenly it make a drop.
And the bottom price was in June with $35,000.
But then it gained a very good peak.
It was a good buying opportunity
and in November it went to around $65,000 in November 2021.
So in this period, actually, we had the Trump tariffs.
We had the SEC that is not having the tax rate cut.
So this affects the market, both the stocks and the cryptos,
because people are actually investing in both.
So that is why the Bitcoin price has dropped instead of rising. But if
we look at every four year elections of the US president, we see that the Bitcoin is always
rising after the elections. So we expect that during the year, definitely the Bitcoin price
can increase.
Okay, okay. Okay, thanks a lot for your time and for your participation here.
Now let's move on again to the VBetterDAO.
And I'd like to ask you, Kostas, regarding the last voting that we have to do to deal with for all these GM NFTs and all this idea that has been arised recently of, let's say, reallocate the way that the DAO deals with it.
Can you please explain to us a little bit about this voting?
Because I have seen a lot of polarization.
I mean, many, many people are against
and many, many are in for.
Of course, the majority is not against.
And to be honest, I am one of the guys
that vote yes to this
because I think it is something of the guys that have voted yes for this because
I think it is something that
will democratize
a lot the whole situation
and from my point of view
the treasury
of foundation
not 5
only 20%
every week it's a lot of it's a lot of allocation.
And I think it's a huge number, 20%.
And only this 5%, minus 5%, it is the bare minimum from my point of view.
It is the bare minimum from my point of view.
And of course, I'm not in a position to judge anyone
because, first of all, I'm not very familiar with this organization,
this DAO organization.
And secondly, because, you know, I'm just one guy.
because, you know, I'm just one guy.
But in any case, please explain to us what is about this 20%
and what is about this current voting.
And, of course, Mr. Weitelman has a great opinion on this
and I explain if he wants to speak about it.
Or Mr. Gnomi you can take or anyone
that wants to speak about
it's a pleasure for us to
understand actually because
yeah
thanks a lot. I can tell you
how I understand the proposal
it didn't come from the foundation it came
from the community I believe some
people who participated
in this proposal
are in this call right now. So I'll do my best to explain what I think this is all about.
So when the DAW was drafted, when we designed the system, we designed these GM NFTs to be
multipliers for the voting rewards that people held and used to vote for their
favorite X-Wern apps, right?
That was the original intention.
Now, one of the things we didn't anticipate was the implementation of what you called earlier aggregators,
where they essentially pull the vote tokens,
the better tokens from multiple community members
and they vote using one account, one wallet, right?
So in this case, they only really need one GM NFT.
And as you may have noticed, these are extremely expensive.
It's very hard to upgrade those GM NFTs as an individual. So it kind of defeats the purpose,
right? So it kind of defeats the purpose of the GM NFTs. What the proposal is about is
What the proposal is about is it tries to incentivize people to essentially use their own wallets to vote and upgrade to those GM NFTs.
It does it by rewarding them the 5% of the weekly allocation that you mentioned, based on the tier of NFT that
they upgrade to.
And it also tries to do this by...
What's the other...
I think...
So the original idea was that we'd have quadratic voting rewards, but that's not part of the proposal, right?
Yeah, I thought as well that was a part of the proposal,
but someone corrected me in the admin's group
that at this point it's not a part of the proposal.
And because we used to speak about that together,
that together. It's not a part of this proposal, just to decrease the level of
it's not a part of this proposal.
of treasury allocation, weekly treasury allocation to 5%, to decrease the price
of the GMNFTs as far as I understand. Yeah. And decrease on the price. Yeah, yeah. And to decrease the multipliers of these NFTs, I understand.
As far as I understand.
I don't think the multipliers were affected.
I could be wrong, though.
But the price is definitely slashed in half as part of the proposal.
Personally, I find this a good proposal
because it kind of takes us back
to the original design of the DAO.
I wouldn't go as far as bring back
quadratic voting rewards
because we still haven't found
an actual solution to the Sibyl attacks.
So for now, I'd say this proposal goes
as far as it needs to go.
But yeah, I see Mr. Whittleman here has joined the speaker panel and he wants to speak.
So I'll just pass it over to him if he has more insights.
Yes, please, Mr. Whittleman.
Hey, hi, everybody.
Great space.
Thanks for hosting. Yeah, I just thought I'd jump in if there was any questions about the proposal because I kind of helped data craft it.
But, you know, the wording was a little confusing because it kind of made it sound like we're going back to quadratic rewards, which we are not.
It just sort of mimics the original design by creating a new system that
is more in line with the quadratic rewards. But basically what ends up happening is you take 5%
from the treasury allocation. So instead of 20% going to the treasury, 15% goes to the treasury.
And then that extra 5% goes to a GM NFT reward pool. And instead of
the multipliers being like the multiplication, the multipliers then represent the weight that
your NFT has in that reward pool. So for example, if you have the moon NFT, you have a 10% more weight, you know, and so on and so forth. And so, you know,
I think to your point that the GM NFT reward pool, starting out with just the 5% of the treasury
allocation, you know, it could be greater. And I think there are ways in which we can increase
the GM reward pool with different mechanics and different proposals in
the future. That's been kind of the biggest criticism that I've heard is that the longer
or the more people that upgrade their GM NFTs, the more the rewards are spread out amongst all
the holders, which then decreases the overall rewards. But what I've been telling people
is that this is sort of like a
step in the right direction like we're this is kind of like we're being put on the right path
is this the final step in that path no but i think then we can continue on this path
and this path seems healthier and more sustainable long term and separated from the other mechanics
of the DAO.
So I think overall, it's a good thing.
And that's why I've been encouraging people to vote because it fixes a lot of the issues.
Currently it fixes sort of the issues with pooling where you don't need to buy
a GM NFT.
You can just join a pool and enjoy significant rewards from that,
which are unsustainable.
And by pooling, it also,
pooling happens in one wallet. And because quadratic voting, it basically makes everyone
that is in that pool, their voting basically doesn't count as great. And so all the apps
basically receive less allocation because of pooling. So it fixes all those issues, which is,
I think, really, really important. And we can kind
of solve how to increase the reward pool for that GM NFT separate reward pool in the future.
You know, as an example, like right now, when apps get kicked off the Dow, maybe they have
leftover allocation. Maybe instead of that going to the treasury, it goes to the GM NFT reward pool.
These are just ideas, you know, and I think we can continue to work on it goes to the gm nft reward pool these are just ideas you know and
i think we can continue to work on it but i think the the this new structure is a healthy one so
that's all i'll say about that okay do you think that we will might have a conflict with the um
with uh i mean with the foundation regarding this because i think um there is a we need of course they need a lot of
money to spend a lot of resources developers to make all these
exchanges do you think that we might have a conflict with them
or not I can take I can take this one I think I can tell you
the way I understand it is
if a proposal is voted, then the foundation has no say in it, right?
But they need to implement it as long as it's technically feasible.
feasible i don't see why the foundation would be able to block this but you know the foundation
I don't see why the foundation would be able to block this.
does have some voting power is my understanding as well so yeah and you know we we try to work
with the foundation early on about this and as we've been putting the proposal together there's
been some feedback like i i think before there was this idea of maybe everyone that has given in to the GM NFT already at the current cost could get refunded half the cost since the cost. Oops. Oops. Sorry, my computer freaked out.
funding people that put in the full cost since the cost is going to be have but conversations
with the foundation made it sound like that was going to be technically hard just because
of you know refunding people it just brings a lot of complications and things that could
go wrong so then that's why the proposal changed to instead of refunding people just that extra
amount that was put in goes towards the next tier is our hope but you know this proposal
is also a text-based proposal so i think our hope and idea with that is that the foundation can take
it and then work with us to see how uh to best implement it because you know we didn't call out
specific smart contracts our our government governance changes uh in the proposal yeah that's that's
quite interesting isn't it because it kind of implies that if you if you do the implementation
as well as part of the proposal then the foundation has no excuse but include it if it's voted right
but uh you know yeah if there's any technical constraints, like, for example, I understand that the proposal
wants to essentially not penalize people that have already bought these NFTs in double the
price, essentially.
And that makes sense. That's a good idea.
But how you implement it, it's quite tricky.
I think the way to go would probably be to, like you said,
give a discount for the next level of the upgrade
based on whatever tier you have already purchased
in the previous
price.
But I don't have enough technical expertise to tell you whether that's even that is feasible
or not.
So I have to refer to the developers.
Exactly.
But I think it's like the proposal kind of speaks to what our hope is and however that's executed.
Right. Like I'm not a developer in that way either.
But if it's like an NFT that they send to people have put in that then somehow halves the cost for the next upgrade.
You know, I think there's different ways to explore that greater minds might know some better solutions than the people
that are putting together the proposal.
Okay, now the other thing that we have to discuss in our days is actually
regarding the V-Swap. We see a lot of negative energy for V-Swap as well and with vStation.
And to be honest, we have to explain with the simple words what is going on with vSwap
and vStation because many, many people don't understand very well what is the negativity for those two dApps.
Besides that, we have to take under consideration that
if we have a lot of, let's say, agglomeration of many, many exchanges,
then I don't think this is...
Okay, let's say it another way.
Is it good to have just only one or two exchanges,
DEXs, let's say, in other words,
for exchanging the VET, the VET,
and a better token and VTHOR,
or it is more preferable to have many
and compete each other in a better way for the end user.
I mean, we have to understand what is wrong with VSwap and VStation compared to the other aggregators and other DEXs.
Can you please, I don't know, actually, Mr. Wettelman, you have a very strong position.
And I don't know if someone else wants to speak about it.
Please raise a hand because we have to understand.
We have to understand all this, the negative impact that they have, those down.
those the down
yeah i can i can kind of speak to my opinion of things and kind of where things are at but i
know i agree with you that uh it's healthier to have more options uh for dexes uh on the
dow and just on v chain in general you know i think competition is like a really really good
and healthy thing and what the last thing we want is just one dex, right? I would say with the situation with vSwap, is that a lot,
there's been a lot of activity that's been flagged and raised as suspicious. And this activity
corresponds to basically a lot of wallets coming online at the same time, over 1,600 wallets that are all voting for vSwap and vStation
at the same time are within 10 seconds of each other.
And it feels something that is very, what's the word,
like intentional and also artificial, right?
So the evidence kind of shows that there was an
artificial increase in votes for both vSwap and vStation, as well as some other dApps once they
were kind of called out on it, that then they added some other dApps to potentially obscure,
you know, who was responsible for it. So, you know, I wrote something up on discourse,
I provided a lot of links for evidence as far as like, what is going on? You know,
after posting the discourse and writing this proposal, vSwap came out with their rebuttal
that they were going to remove themselves from the DAO preemptively. But I've still just been encouraging community
members to vote for this proposal. Let's push it through because once it's on the DAO,
the community can vote for it. And then the community's answer is sort of etched in stone.
So that's kind of my opinion. That's what's been kind of going on in the background that I've
noticed. And anyone can go to that discourse or even to the proposal and read up more about it.
Okay, okay.
Now, the other thing that I'd like to say is that we have, I think we have to press a little bit the foundation or let's say the community to make, let's say, a due diligence regarding the
DApps that wants is out of our ecosystem.
And I was speaking about V-Mill, actually, from the very first beginning regarding this.
And I think from my experience with Mill, it's a little bit necessary to understand, to have
let's say a diligence,
a due diligence
of what is
who is behind
to each DAB.
I know that is not
something that
is not familiar with the
crypto industry, but
avoiding all these, you know, speculators that want to get in
and have some fun and go out,
I think we have to understand a little bit.
We have to make something more controllable.
It's my humble opinion, of course,
I'm not in a position to say something,
to motivate someone.
But I think at the end,
we will see that this will happen.
We have to control, we have to understand
who is behind all these people that want to get in.
We have to stop this trash gap that came
and got a lot of resources from us.
And I don't know what you think.
Please say whatever. Who wants to go first, guys? resources from us. And I don't know what do you think. Please
say whatever.
Who wants to go first, guys? I think
I see three hands up.
Would you like to go first with me?
Okay. I'll tell you a couple things
from the foundation's perspective.
We can definitely gate these
doubts, but I don't think that's
what the purpose of the foundation should
to be a centralized kind of approval authority.
But what we should be doing, in my opinion,
and I think it was already kind of structured in a proposal in this course,
is to give the necessary information to the endorsers
the necessary information to the endorsers
so that they can make a more informed decision
on whether to endorse the DAP or not.
So here's one thing I've been seeing more and more lately.
I've seen Xnode holders demand to meet the developers, the development teams
of the dApps, of the
X2N apps that they are asking to be
endorsed. And I think that's healthy. I think that makes sense. How can you
possibly be tasked with gatekeeping and
securing the DAO if you don't know, if you can't ask questions
to the developers of an extra DAO.
That makes sense, right?
And you definitely don't want to put this responsibility with the Vietzhan Foundation
because that's when other kinds of concerns around centralization come into play.
Yeah, I can go next.
Yeah, no, I echo that. I think basically new dApps
that have kind of come onto spaces and introduced themselves
and let the Xnode community endorsers kind of see what they're about
is super helpful
and i encourage all future dApps to do that and then the other thing i'd say is like you know i
don't think the solution to your point costas is like um doxing every developer i mean i i'm not
doxed and i prefer to stay that way um for you know privacy reasons but i've been in the community
for a long time i I have a history,
you know, like people know who I am. I think it's more of these people that are new that are popping
on. Like there's this new one that just popped on the other day called V Guardians and said that
they submitted their proposal, but like no one knows who they are. And so that's where it sort
of raises these flags where it's like, okay,
you know, they don't have any history, they're just, you know, some some new app with them,
they're not revealing who they are, who's behind it. Not that they have to reveal their their full
name, although that certainly goes a long way for transparency, and trust, but just the fact that I
think it goes a long way if they have you know a long history
on like twitter that you can follow or anything else to kind of help uh community members vet
that these are going to be good actors versus bad actors okay you know i was uh was knocking the
door of each uh person we chain telling them that uh regarding the vMIL they are not what they are looking for, they
are not what they are offering. They want to exploit. And finally, we saw the result.
And I think Data wants to speak. Data, please, and they are breaking balls, please take the speaker and speak freely.
I'll let Mr. Balls go.
Thanks, Dana.
Just to add on to Wittleman's point, I think there's a couple things here going on.
We don't want the foundation to fully take over.
It just seems there's a mixture of people getting on randomly quickly, like this Nubula
network that's after now, it seems very, very quick, but they're posting a lot about V-Chain,
but they feel a lot like Let's Stop as far as how they're set up. So that also screams a little
worrisome to me. I would just like it to slow down.
You know, I would appreciate if the foundation
would be like, okay, you have to do spaces
with the community.
You have to do this before you're even allowed
to get endorsed or you have to meet with endorsers.
I mean, Costas, you said there are some X nodes
that demand to meet with people.
It's not a ton of us.
It's not really.
It's a few loud ones of us.
Exactly.
And the thing is, it's like, you know, in our Telegram group,
there's like 200 X nodes.
There's a lot more than that in general.
And I don't know.
And Dad has got a plan to maybe help this,
but I don't know if this endorsed endorsed remodel is going to last because there are not enough X nodes, in my opinion, who care
to do the vetting.
This is not a responsibility that we asked for.
Some of us like it.
I like it.
You know, a bunch of us do, but no one asked for this.
It was something that was kind of given to us to like throw, a bunch of us do, but no one asked for this. It was something that was
kind of given to us to like throw us a bone to be like, Hey, you can have a say in the DAO now
because you've been around for seven years. And the evidence of this is clear as day, because if
you look at the delegate, the delegated endorsement points right now, that's endorsement points right now that's endorsement points that people have given to the delegate to to pretty much sell to dApps to buy themselves on which is crazy buying its own
thing it's 2 000 just under 2 000 endorsement points yeah i don't like this at all i don't i
don't like this at all but you know that's how does that get fixed though?
You know, I mean, you can't get people to care.
A lot of these X nodes are people that are just like have their money parked in V chain forever.
They might not even be part of the DAO.
They might not even know.
So like, I feel like there has to be something else that we talked about as this DAO goes, you know, continues to go on where we figure out maybe something else, because that can't be.
And there's going to be more dApps and dApps and dApps that are going to be endorsements,
and then there's going to be a stall. So I just foresee some of that stuff happening,
and we'll tackle it when it comes, but it's definitely there. And then you got another
thing I just posted on X was that then you got daps that just automatically get a 100 point endorsement from, you know, one of the bigger nodes that we have and no one even has talked to them.
And it's like just one, one endorser should not decide who comes on the DAO.
Like that's, we need at least one, two, three, maybe it has to be community.
It can't just be one person deciding unless the dap
has been being created by the foundation and that's that's my opinion on that yeah no i agree
i just want to interject before uh the stereo he he has his hand up for quite quite some time i just
want to say something as well even if uh let's say a maliciousAP gets a week or two of allocation,
it's not the end of the world for the grand scheme of things.
The system was built like that with weekly allocations
to mitigate that risk exactly.
So I think the system works to some extent.
Obviously, it can be improved,
and we will be improving it with proposals
from both the community and the foundation going forward.
Dastair, would you like to say something here?
Yes.
So what I would like to note is that we should never, as a DAO, force the people to KYC or something,
because most people don't want to do that.
But at the same time, I think that everyone who wants his app to get into the DAO,
he should at least do something about KYC to certain members or something like that.
Not everyone should be allowed to create apps
that could not drain, of course, as you said, Kostas.
Thank you so much for saying that out loud.
One or two weeks of having the app up
is not going to drain the pools or something.
Okay, some people are going to get some points and now what?
Nothing is going to happen.
So I think that the apps that are looking for endorsement should have some kind of KYC or something from the leaders of that app or the developers or the team in general, at least
that. And the other point I would like to discuss is personally, I am not a fan of apps
that you can give your points and they can vote for you because this means that if for example
i have a good friend let's say to that app and i want my app to get there i get i can get more
endorsement points which is something that i i don't like I think it's much better if there was not such a mechanism
and only people who actually voted
and not just give the votes to everyone else.
If you want something like that, you can use staking.
For example, if you want some passive income,
you can use staking. For example, if you want some passive income, you can use staking,
not to give your points to these apps to be able to endorse anything that they want.
For example, I don't want to say any names for the apps because some of them are doing an amazing job, actually.
I'm not going to say this is good or this is bad.
I'm going to say that I would prefer if these apps, instead of them having the ability to use the points that we are giving them,
and they should not be allowed to vote with those points.
If they want to generate some kind of passive income through staking or through any other way,
okay, I'm more than welcome to accept that. If I want to give them my vote points and do whatever they want with them but not vote for the rewards for the
next week or endorse more apps or anything like that.
Okay.
I think,
Kostas,
we are just one hour and ten minutes.
Do you want to say
something regarding
the new,
any sexy new regarding
the DAO, anything that
will amazing us?
Do you have something
to share with us?
Sure.
This sounds like a curated question. Do you have something to share with us? Sure. Yeah.
This sounds like a curated question.
It's like, hey, tell us about something you find interesting.
Well, I'm glad you asked it because, like, okay, let me frame this.
Let me frame this a little bit.
Since I joined the foundation,
I've been hearing a lot of feedback.
I've been getting a lot of feedback
about things that could be improved
at a network level,
then later with the DAO,
with regards to the process,
with regards to the engagement with the community,
and we've been taking action on all of that.
Some of the most difficult ones revolved around the energy.
So the gas and how that is being generated, how it's being burned.
And it kind of made sense to me from day one.
It's just so damn difficult to fix, right?
It's a protocol change.
It requires a hard fork.
You need to be very careful when you're fiddling with those things.
And that's essentially what's coming up next.
And I don't think the community has realized the impact that this will have at the network level.
So this goes one layer below the DAO, right?
The DAO has helped in some way because it has increased the on-chain activity.
If you look at the transactions that are running on Mainnet right now,
now, they're 10x, 20x what they used to be when I joined.
they're 10x, 20x what they used to be when they joined.
So that's a good thing, but it's not enough
to solve the gas issue.
And with the new Galactica hard fork
that was announced recently,
dynamic fee markets will be introduced.
It's going to be completely different way
to kind of calculate the supply and demand of the gas,
essentially.
And not many people have been asking me questions about that,
which I find weird.
Like, the community has been so vocal about fixing these issues for so many years.
And up until now, I don't think people have realized
how much of a change this is.
And I'm not even touching on any future upgrades Up until now, I don't think people have realized how much of a change this is.
And I'm not even touching on any future upgrades that the Bitsin Foundation has been working on at the protocol.
But even this one, this Galactica hard fork, is going to have massive impact, I think, for the better.
And also one more thing I wanted to mention is we touched a little bit earlier on the price.
And I have to say this.
People initially thought crypto would be essentially heads against inflation.
And it's going to be not directly correlated with markets.
It didn't turn out to be like that.
In fact, as a friend said earlier,
the crypto is essentially completely correlated with the markets,
the traditional markets, right?
And that kind of implies that macroeconomic factors affect the price more than any development activities or growth.
Because if the VeChain price was correlated with activity and growth, it would have 10x already.
Have you seen the transaction numbers on chain? Have you seen the developer engagement?
We are by far the most active project right now.
We're essentially topping the benchmarks
when it comes to development activity.
So I think I find this fascinating.
Obviously we're still kind of,
like I said,
subjected to the macroeconomics.
There's not much we can do about that.
We can't decide what Trump will say
in his announcement.
But what we can do
is continue building
and improving the protocol,
the DAO, the community
engagement, the developer tooling, all of that.
And that's what we've been doing for the last two and a half years.
Okay.
Now, if you want to say something, Duster.io or Data
or Mr. Weidelman or anyone who wants to say something
as a conclusion
since we are almost 75 minutes
and probably, yeah,
we have to hang up.
Yeah, okay.
I want to hear from Data
if you're still there.
I'm here.
What do you want to hear about?
Anything, man. I'm here. What do you want to hear about? Anything, man.
Share your thoughts.
Yeah, I think.
So I just came in probably in the last 15 minutes or so.
But I would say the main part that I heard was Dow related.
was DAO related. And so from the, from at least the DAO perspective, I think that, yes, we've got
to work on improving it, improving the apps, improving, you know, who's in there and what
they're doing and all that stuff. But I think that the way that we do it is not necessarily through, you know, getting the foundation to be the middlemen, to be the arbiters of what gets in and doesn't get in.
But, you know, as much as we can do in a decentralized way through smart contracts to make it difficult for people to come in and exploit and for them to be malicious and for them to be, you know, money grabbing allocations.
right now that's up for vote. So if you haven't voted for that, please go vote for that so that
we can get the allocation set up and more normalized with linear rewards instead of
the quadratic rewards. So it kind of brings the GMNFTs back to what they originally were.
When we were planning quadratic rewards, they were a small boost. They were not this massive boost.
rewards they were a small boost they were not this massive boost um so let's get that passed
it's almost there um and i think that we've got to come up with good decentralized ways through
smart contracts to make it difficult for people to come in and screw us over people to come in
and be malicious where they you know their hand is forced more to be a positive influence.
And then if they're not,
then we can have other ways to remove them and get them out.
You know,
we may have to have some type of centralized committee or something in the
meantime, until we can get all those parts in place.
I don't think that's a bad idea necessarily.
We've kind of thrown that around a little bit, but I think that with, and then from what costas was saying just a second ago
with uh the chain as a whole um as a developer building apps and working on stuff uh with the
team that i'm on uh it's been a day and night difference over the last year and a half, probably, or year, really, because before a year ago, there was very minimal resources out there, minimal things out there.
Over the last year, we've had the new VeChain SDK that's come out.
We've got the new VeChain kit that's come out.
A lot more tooling, a lot more examples, a lot more people available to help.
It's night and day difference.
Okay.
As well, a non-fungible book is here.
And if you want to say something, you can have your audio speaker.
Otherwise, please, Mr. Wettelman, you can add something to what the data said.
Besides, I would like to comment something that's crucial here.
To those that have a lot of amount of, a big amount of better tokens, because the fact that there are not so many dApps to the DAO,
when we split the amount of voting power to the dApps, the problem here is that I have found,
I have noticed that there is a slight small problem because of the quadratic scheme
that we face. Those dApps don't get what we want to give as a power, as a voting power.
I don't know if this at the moment is fair for them. Because, for example, if someone has, let's say, 150,000 water tokens or 200,000 water tokens,
and they want to split to those tokens, to the number of the dApps that exist in DAO.
Because of the fact that we have a quadratic distribution,
this voting power is diluted.
And I don't think it's a little bit fair for the time being.
I don't know if you agree or not.
And I want your opinion on this.
Probably I'm wrong, of course,
but I want your opinion to understand what are your thoughts.
Are you asking for my thoughts?
Yeah, yeah, please.
Okay.
Yeah, I mean, that's interesting.
I would say if you got rid of the quadratic voting,
then we're just basically in a linear system,
and it's basically the people that have the biggest wallets
get the biggest say, which is obviously a perspective.
I think right now things are pretty well balanced with linear rewards and quadratic voting.
I think that's healthier in the long run.
I think right now maybe it seems a little bit not harmful, but there are things that sort of exacerbate the issues,
like the fact that um
you know people that set it and forget it with v delegate early on like those apps continually get
the same votes and have uh these new apps that come on don't really get a piece of that so i
would say that that could be a conversation to talk about with v delegate if there's a way where
maybe every quarter they reset it or something so that you
have to check in at least one you know four times a year and that would allow um votes to be split
more evenly across new apps that are joining the DAO you know so I don't think moving to linear
uh voting with linear rewards is like a long-term solution um so that that's kind of my initial thought there
but to uh to echo what data was saying like uh i think the way that we can really get the dow in a
good place is if you take away sort of like a lot of middle management that uh v chain you know is
doing in this first year and you just basically gate everything by the smart contracts that will, uh, essentially force daps to behave,
right? Because if we leave everything to human behavior,
we just know what that sort of, um, introduces into the equation.
So, um, but, but yeah, like,
I think we as a community have definitely like stepped up to help guide the
doubt and the way in which we think it needs it.
And I think there's a lot more work to do, but I'm proud of the direction we're going.
I can add to that.
I think first we should see right now the voting is broken because of the delegate and all the pooling.
So I think it's the first step
once that's taken care of we should see how that affects everything and then make a decision
okay okay
yeah i think that uh leaving it quadratic voting is a necessity at this point because then it becomes
significantly more pay-for-play and because then it becomes significantly more pay for play and
it's it's much more difficult to buy or buy votes right now in the quadratic setup. Linear would
kind of change that. I think that there is there is definitely some room for helping out with either newer apps or helping out with like, you know, adding some boosts or
multipliers, like various things like that. I think that those could come into play. It would
just be deciding. And we've talked a little bit about that in a couple of groups, you know,
whether it's limiting.
And I think that in the proposal I'm looking at would also have some areas in here where you're, you know, if apps don't continually provide for the community, then they get limited
the rewards that they would send out.
And, you know, so if you've got an app that app that say that doesn't send anything out to users for a
month they're not going to continually just accrue accrue accrue rewards and so the votes towards
them become not important essentially and so then you're able to disperse it more to the active apps
because you're limiting what the apps get if they don't disperse.
Okay.
Have you said that?
I think it's time to close all this space.
I don't think if someone wants to speak, you are more than welcome to take the microphone
and say something.
It's nice having you all. you are more than welcome to take the microphone and say something.
It's nice having you all.
And thanks a lot for
participating in this
discussion.
And I think probably
next month we might have
one more.
You are more than
welcome to join us and discuss
everything freely and openly
and express our opinion. And please, my name is George Stamatopoulos. I'm a Greek guy
and I'm living in Athens and I'm the admin in Greece so if
someone wants to find me
you are more than welcome
to chat with me
in Telegram and here
my dearest friends
thanks for coming and
especially for the people from
abroad and
you're in flourish this
space and see you next month.
Once again, thanks a lot.
Duster or someone else wants to say night?
Okay, have a wonderful night.
