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organizations of humans in a tech-first environment - with durgadas - in the context of the Greenpill Garden
Recorded: Feb. 4, 2026 Duration: 4:35:18Space Recording
Short Summary
The Greenpoint Network is spearheading a movement towards decentralized community engagement and regenerative practices in the crypto space, emphasizing the importance of partnerships, grants, and yield generation to foster sustainable growth.
Full Transcription
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Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music I'm going to go to the next video. Hello.
Hello.
Welcome, welcome. It is happening. Thank you Welcome, welcome.
It is happening.
Thank you everyone for joining.
Thank you, Douglas, for making time.
It is great to see you.
It is great to see everyone in the space.
Hi, Amio.
Hi, Angela.
Hi, Will.
Hi, Amio.
Hello.
Hello.
Thank you for joining us.
We will get started. This is a recorded space more openly in a bit.
But we will definitely get to the requests to hear from everyone. context of recent collaboration and working together of Greenpoint Network with the help
of Dogados in the evolution. That is the broad context, why this is happening now and not
two years ago and not 10 years ago and not 30 years ago or not 10 years in the future.
I mean, who knows what's happening then? But just like very, very broad, that's what's happening now.
And Dorgalus, of course, has been thinking for quite some time before that
and in various contexts about how organizations of humans
in a tech-first world function or maybe not function
and what to learn from and how to learn and how to evolve.
And so with that said, as a very broad context, I want to start with you, Dogadas, as a person
before we even get into the topic and just ask, like, who are you?
Where do you come from, like, spherically?
And, I mean, it doesn't have to be a place.
But what brings you here and who are you?
How did this journey start?
Yeah, so I'm a person who's sort of deeply involved in human development.
I don't think I enjoy anything as much as I like
watching people improving themselves.
And so the way that that played out in my earlier life
was during my athletics period,
I was coach of athletes, right?
And so you would watch how individual people develop
towards their goals and had coach had coached you know many
elite level athletes and so you know national champions turn them from anywhere from 13 to 23
you know if you wanted to be a pro or national champion i don't think i ever coached anybody who
won a world championship but um yeah so that was kind of you know i was really
interested in development really in almost any context it's something i naturally gravitate
toward and something i've been personally doing for my whole life so in terms of my
personal development there's kind of a before and after um where i went and was living in a hindu
monastery for five years and so i studied you know, both at an embodied level and, you know,
literally giving up everything I owned to live there.
And I took all the money out of my bank account.
They repossessed my car like I was all in.
And so I went and lived in a Sivananda ashram for five years.
And then when I came out of that, I had a very different perspective on life.
And then when I got introduced to the Web3 world and crypto and that sort of thing, I
thought there was a unique opportunity for human beings to sort of revision the way that
they went about doing things, right?
Both at a personal organizational level but also
it's pretty obvious you know you know that the world in some ways is becoming uh you know going
through a difficult period and so how might i contribute to that and i immediately gravitated
toward taking the insights that i had gleaned from you you know, years of non-dual Advaita Vedanta, you know,
perspectives where you're not really attached to a given thing. I just started thinking about things
and through more of an integral lens, like integral is in Gene Gebser and, you know, Ken Wilber and
this kind of thing. And so I founded and or participated in a bunch of groups like that over time.
And then when I got into the crypto thing, it was just natural that I would extend those
same kind of non-dual epistemic and ontological flexibility, you know, approaches, you know,
and even though there's a bit of structure in the integral thing, you know, from being
very inclusive of a lot of different kinds of mental
models i realized that i could you know that really would work well in a web 3 space and so i
kind of started involving myself in that and and so i incorporated everything from you know non-violent
communication from marshall rosenberg through you know, Keegan and Leahy's work in organizational
developments. I have written between the last 10 years, 2016 to 2026, I have a seven-part series on
the now 12 million words that I've written. I've also written 5,000 answers on Cora.com about spiritual topics, you know, in about a year and a half, it took me to do that.
So I've always been extremely prolific.
And now with the advent of AI and this exocortex thing, multiplying that stuff, I've really taken advantage of that. I'm also on the autism spectrum, so in some sense that helps me to synthesize
really broad topics and come down and try to make them actionable and relevant for individuals. So,
I hope that's a reasonable intro. Thank you. Yeah, for sure. That was a wonderful intro. I think that helps to set the stage overall. And of course, we are here to broadly talk about organizations, but that has to do with a lot of different elements.
You said the human development side and the coaching kind of even before you ever entered Web3 has always been an element that stood out to you.
And I wonder, like, from interacting and coaching individual athletes, how, like, has that in the group context of, I mean, there are some sports, of course, are happening in a group.
From that team spirit and that coaching, how has that translated into works, working with organizations and analyzing and evaluating organizations that are outside of the sports world.
Yeah, well, you know, one of my favorite terms is tensegrity, which is a term that was coined by Buckminster Fuller to speak about structural things.
So Buckminster Fuller was very famous, what I would call now a polymath.
I would say that I'm kind of somebody out of that same that same sort of
polymathic uh vein um and the whole idea is that you know you do a lot of different things well and
so so one of the things i started recognizing when i was teaching yoga um and and looking at
the advaita vedanta thing and i also built you built a yoga studio out of mud and clay and straw.
It's a work of art.
And so there are a lot of things that are,
when you're building a building and when you're teaching yoga,
it teaches you about this tensional integrity.
And I realized that a lot of the manifest world
is structured in this kind of tense, every way.
And so I sort of saw that as a bit of a organizing principle
for, okay, well, if i see that in a building and
i see that in a person's you know physiology and the whole way or physiology is arranged it makes
sense then that it would have a huge effect in terms of how we see the world right so generally
speaking you know if you look at the bicameral brain you've got you've got one thing that think
functions like a serial processor and the thing that functions like a serial processor
and the other that functions like a parallel processor.
So you have two adversarial brains and they have very different personalities.
And the combination of those two things together really creates all thought.
The thing is, is that what I realized was that the culture that I was living in and
then the culture that I learned, you know, going back to ancient Indian philosophies, which is for me just the absolute height of thinking.
And the word Vedanta is composed of two words, literally means Veda, which means knowledge, like the absolute knowledge of everything, the knowledge that being known, nothing else remains to know.
And then Anta, which is um you know the end the end so it's
like vedanta's literal you know claim to fame is the evolution of you know 5 000 years of indian
thinking is that it's the end of um thinking right and so so having learned that formally, it was a thing where I could see now how things sort of manifested.
And I was just following the patterns and the principles underneath all this stuff.
And I think intentional integrity is a really huge operational thing in a lot of the ways that we create systems.
But the problem is our educational system teaches us
that there's really only one right answer.
And so we kind of oversimplify everything.
We assume everything is simple.
And so when we go to deal with complex questions,
we don't have a pedagogy or a facility
or like a familiarity even with just thinking about things that are really complex.
And I could see that the stuff that we're doing in Web3 and in organizational dynamics
and stuff is actually very complex.
So I've been trying to come up with some things that would make that stuff both understandable
and actionable.
Yeah, I think that's one of the important parts, right?
Like how do you translate the theories
and the aspect into actionable things,
into understandable things?
And like learnings are great They're correct into actionable things, into understandable things.
And learnings are great and they might be correct, potentially, if they happen in a vacuum and if they're published somewhere where someone can read them. But yeah, so that's why this is also...
Go ahead.
I said people get stuck there.
It seems to be the blocking point.
Yes.
Intellectually, they can understand the concepts,
but putting them into action
because action for each individual is individualized.
So there is no very strict formula
that doesn't take into consideration
individual circumstance.
And so helping people figure out how to translate into their own questions is something I have really appreciated about the work that we've done together so far.
The reading that I've done of some of the things that you've written, which, by the way, the article on Tension I read already was super great. Oh, the one that I did today? Yeah, the one you did today.
Oh, great. Yeah, thanks. I just happened upon it, so I really appreciate that too.
Yeah, and what I'm saying is not everything is attentional integrity, but a lot of complex things are.
And so, you know, if you look at things like Kinefin and so on, it gives you some action modes and some ways to recognize, you know, patterns about the nature of things and how
does one behave when a certain set of things is happening.
And so when you're talking about the web three world where we're trying to organize
or trying to make, and you have to make sure that you can place, you know, things like game theory and it's in its place, which is it's in the complicated realm of the Kineffin side of the picture.
Right. It's not in the complex side of the world. Right. But but at the same time, we use game theory for absolutely everything.
We use game theory for absolutely everything.
And so it's, you know, that's why my governance beyond game theory article is there, because what I was just recognizing is that we've been for are things that are that are usually either clear
from the kinefin standpoint or the core complicated which is the realm of the expert and then we we
we almost forget that there's this complex thing or we distrust it right and so there's you know
the complex is kind of the realm of the scientists right and so in in in the experimenter and so in many ways i actually like to think that
what we're doing here is a kind of you know organizational science right it's a human science
and so in that way i i i really believe in um you know i mean i have a lot of narratives that
i've built around this but but for me i i just feel like um that tensional
integrity piece is a way to interrogate things that are complex or the wicked problem thing
and what i'm basically engaged in is developing some you know measurable actionable um way of
interrogating uh complex problems that actually um my theory basically is an extension of the
kinefin theory and makes it more detailed and more clear, more measurable, more actionable.
And of course, you do need to have all the connecting pieces. You have to understand
what are all the available mental models that exist, and you have
to be able to sift through them and make sure that you understand where they belong in a given action
mode. But, you know, it's also true that, you know, I remember when I lived at the ashram,
sometimes you would have people who, because of the nature of living in this monastery place, we would have
these people come in for like a one month teacher training course. And I taught, you know, a whole
bunch of these. So we'd have one every six months and it will last for an entire month. And you
could see people for the first, you know, week or so just really struggling with the discipline of
it. And so, you know, so we had certain things that
were rules, right? And then we had other things that we would call guidelines. And I remember my
teacher said a very wise thing one time, and this is kind of in line with this complex or wicked
problem situation is that, you know, once you start thinking of these things as rules, you know,
that once you start thinking of these things as rules,
you know, maybe you should stop for a second
and start thinking of them more as guidelines, right?
Because then you won't feel so like
someone's imposing something upon you, right?
And then really at the moment you think that,
you know, maybe these things are really just guidelines.
Maybe it's smarter for you to stop and think,
you know, maybe they're actually more like rules.
And so there's this weird like intentional integrity, even within that kind of a thing that
I find to be really the most productive and accurate way to detail the nature of what it is to have knowledge and wisdom. So I try to discover this kind of
that sort of paradox at the heart of everything. And then I like to develop tools that will
enable us to interrogate paradoxes in a way that's easier to understand.
I feel like fear gets in the way for a lot of people.
You feel like what fear? Yes, for sure it is. Yeah, because the inevitable outcome of
one right answer is that most of the time you're going to spend fearing not having the right answer,
right? And so having epistemic and ontological flexibility is the ultimate way to uh the the
piece that that you need and and honestly the greatest thing for me about advaita vedanta is
that i i could take my like i sometimes wear my intellect as something like a coat you know
and i'm like look at me i'm very smart and but the thing is, is that when you have something like Advaita Vedanta there or integral theory, you know, following on from
that, I can take that coat off. I can set it aside and know that when I put it back on, it's going to,
it's going to have answers for me. Right. And a lot of times, you know, I've treated myself and other people
have treated me like, you know, an answer machine, you know, and, and, and, you know, it's,
it can be, it can be a thing where you're like, oh yeah, actually, I, I don't actually need to,
you know, to feel like I know everything or have an answer for everything because,
because that's not really what you're going for here.
Occam's razor cuts both ways, right?
It can cut you and it can cut away ignorance as well.
So I just feel like most manifest things are best approached this way.
And so if we take a look at some of the
strategy work that we've been doing inside of Green Pill, for example, hopefully as a segue,
you know, one of the things that you can see is strategy is designed. Strategy is initially,
you know, it's the Sun Tzu thing. It's the, I'm going to decide what to do, or we are going to
decide as a small group, and then we're going to tell everyone else what to do that's what strategy is now the thing is is that hopefully your strategy is actually
addressing a real problem right that's the that's the fundamental thing that strategy is designed to
do right and then you need to have a guiding policy that resolves that problem and then you
need to have a set of coherent actions that are underneath that. And so, you know,
we've had a few workshops here and some follow-up calls to all of that to try to make sure people
understand what's going on. And they're sending me their horrible ideas about what strategy is.
And I'm sending them back some critiques about that. But that is also just, you know, it's important to understand that that's
more of a top-down kind of, I'm telling people sort of what to do in that situation.
And that's okay, and that works in some situations, especially if you're in getting
shit done mode, you know. At the same time, you know, there also needs to be space for another kind of, you know, way of organizing
and way of bubbling things up and pulling signal out of what seems to be a bunch of
noise or just recognizing that it's not a noise at all.
In fact, there's a lot of signal in there if you can just figure out how to listen.
And so a huge amount of my work is trying to give people permission to um you know take
advantage of those things in in a way hopefully you know that that that emboldens them and frees
them from the general constraints that i think a lot of people have been encultured into by our
you know broken educational system and our extractive financial system
and all of these other things.
Yeah, I really think that it is very foundational
what you said at the beginning, right?
How it's a premise essentially
in most of the existing prominent education system
to teach that that's one right thing to do something.
And actually that leads us to a lot of rigidness in thinking and organizing and collaboration
and all sorts of things that actually might not be really conducive to whatever the goal might be.
Well, yeah.
And I will just follow up with that, if you don't mind.
The primary problem that I see with it is this one right answer saying leads people
to worse solutions, right? So the thing about when you look at, when you start thinking strategically,
one of the things that you'll notice about strategy, even the design strategy stuff where you're saying,
okay, this is what we need to do.
And this is how we're gonna go about doing it.
The biggest thing about strategy
is that you're supposed to do the highest leverage thing,
right?
It's the thing that you do one action
and it does a whole bunch of things in response, right?
So the whole idea being that you're you're trying to solve many problems
at one or you're trying to align with the thing that's that's most effective and solve as many
problems at one time and so so when you start thinking strategically and i press people on this
about you know somebody will come to me and say, hey, I've got three or four strategies now, because now I know how this formula works.
You get this, you got the guiding policy, you got the problem, you got a guiding policy, and you got all these coherent actions.
So I made five strategies, all of which have each.
And I'm like, no, this is the whole point of that.
The whole point of strategy is to focus and pick one thing, right?
But that's a matter of focus.
That's not a matter of the orthodoxy telling you that there is only one right answer because the basic idea is to keep you kind of under control.
What I see us doing right now, and you'll actually, there's a theme running through all my work on my paragraph that's talking about how we basically are in many ways recreating some of these conditions. right? It's idea is really fundamentally flawed, right?
In the same way that the game theoretic over indexing is fundamentally flawed.
It prevents you from seeing, hey, what about social choice theory?
What about other things that would solve some of these problems?
Why don't we treat...
And by the way, those things also have mathematical rigor to them.
You can look at errors and impossibility theorem.
You can look at condor sets.
You can look at all these different things within social choice theory and measure them,
right?
And so why do we over-index on game theory?
And so that's what I'm trying to say is that a lot of my work is just trying to say to
people, hey, you don't actually have to choose one thing.
Just like in the same way that there is actually in the bicameral brain, you have a serial processor and you have a parallel processor.
But one of those is functionally superior to the other because one includes the other.
So if you look at your right brain, for example, and things like a parallel processor, well, it's including all the serial processor stuff.
So if you look at your right brain, for example, and things like a parallel processor.
The undivided includes all of the divided as well.
And so this is one of the lessons of non-duality that's really counterintuitive to people.
And for me, I think of it as like the quantum mechanics of
organizational behavior. It's like, it's like nobody really understands this, this, this particular
thing, right? So the idea for me, like with the regen side of the thing is, is, you know, you're
not trying to stop extraction as a regen. What you're trying to do is you're trying to say,
we need more regen than when we
have extraction. That's literally, for me, the definition of what it is to be regenerative.
It's not to stop the entire extractive impulse. People need resources. People need certain things.
People need abundance. You're not just going to take and throw that stuff away. But at the same
time, you need to be more regenerative and you need to offer and choose regenerative solutions because those regenerative solutions have secondary properties to them that make them functionally superior to their extractive counterparts.
it's just better. It's just a better thing to do, right? Because we haven't been taught how to do it
and we haven't been taught that it's better. And because we've been taught this one right answer
kind of approach to everything, which by the way, is super well documented. If you look up
build a tower, build a team on YouTube, Tom Wujek runs this thing called, I think it's like this
marshmallow test or the spaghetti test, where people build towers out of spaghetti and put a marshmallow on the top.
And he says, he says, the people who do the best are architects and, you know, engineers, thank God, right?
And then the people who do second best are kindergartners.
And the people who do worse are recent business school graduates.
And it's hilarious to me because those people in business school, what are they taught?
They're taught about business and the nature of business is strictly hierarchical, strictly orthodoxy.
And it's all about living within orthodoxies.
And so in Web3, we don't have the luxury of that.
We're all out here claiming and we're creating something new.
But if your brain is stuck on the one right answer mode and you think you're out here doing something brand new, well, guess what you're not doing?
You're not doing something brand new.
So does that make sense?
I love that.
Yes, it does. It does.
And indeed, I think that's also a fundamental thing of your writing and your workshops,
is looking at things from different perspectives and seeing,
you know, there are ways to describe those that make it sound like it's new,
but there are also plenty of ways to look at it where we actually discover that
maybe it's not that new and maybe it's just a facade, what looks new.
Yeah.
So, and before we get to the specific, well, we have a few things to go through.
And as I said before, we will open up the stage more in a bit.
So, yeah, we will definitely get to more requests
and welcome them.
Yeah, and if folks have questions,
please pose them to me.
I'm sure that I'll have an answer.
That for sure as well.
Thank you for offering that.
Stella, thank you for coming up on stage.
How is your Wednesday going?
If you're there.
Yes, I'm there. Sorry.
You're there.
I was in my house in a hole of the Wi-Fi.
And I was like, did he say Stella?
I think he did. So I moved to a different part of the house.
Anyways. Hey, guys. Hi, Durgis.
Hi, Seville.
What's been your experience with Web3 trying to reinvent things,
but maybe not doing that?
Have you experienced that?
This is like such a rhetorical question.
I think we've all seen this happening, right?
And it's also a very normal thing to do. You repeat what you already know, you apply some new knowledge to it or a new technology. So that's what we've been seeing all over the place happening, right?
Because you want to figure out what works and what doesn't work.
And we have sadly seen in the last year all the things that didn't work because it's gone now, right?
But I think by all the stuff that goes away because it's not working, we can securely extract the stuff that is working.
And also the context of where it is working because sometimes
it's not that things are just generally not working right sometimes it's just you need to
have the right context for it to actually be able to work and i think that's something that
specifically counts for DAOs you know i get like all of these posts from like friends and family where it says like DAOs are not working.
Communities in Web3 are not working.
Right.
Communities are dying.
And I'm like, oh, my God, people, get a grip.
That's actually not true, in my opinion.
I think it's just a matter of, you know, designing it more consciously, not anchoring it to things that don't make sense maybe.
And I mean, we can jump into the details of that
because I think more people have stuff to say about this.
But just as a very general opinion that I'm serving here,
we can totally go into more detail.
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
I think it is good to go into a tad more detail i think
yeah go for it okay so for example um if you think you know the other situation uh let's just
call up examples even though it's a little bit mean. But Aave, you know, is a protocol, is a DeFi protocol, all good and things.
But the way that ownership was handed is not actually equal how ownership is practiced, right?
And so you have a complete disalignment there, right?
Things are just not in line with what they are supposed to be.
And then you run into all of these ripple effects and problems and you're wondering why that is.
And I think, you know, if you apply that to any other community, even to the Green Pill community, right?
It's so important to have consensus first.
Like, why do you exist? What's your purpose, right?
It's almost like the branding 101 like you
know everything that a brand designer would ask you it's like do you know this do you have that
information like why do you exist what are your colors what who are you trying to talk to what are
you trying to say to those people that you're trying to talk to it's not so different for
communities communities need to first understand why what's their purpose to exist? Are they actually owners? Then they need to be given actual ownership, right? If they are not
actual owners and they are just like, let's say, you know, like on a school board, they are like
one of many voices that have a certain percentage of votes that they can say something about, then, you know, that line should be clearly defined.
If it's not defined, it just causes problems.
And this is what we've been seeing all over the place.
You want more details? You want more rants? Let me know.
Perfect. Exactly, exactly.
I think that's a, yeah.
And what that speaks to
also is
like we see
we see
if there's no consensus
after we thought there's
consensus oftentimes I think right
and like
working with Dogadas for me that's been
one of the revelations is like
i mean well um like just one of one of the learnings and i actually i would love to
to hear from dogadas about this as well because i know you've been thinking about it and and then
we will also definitely thank you for the hands this is uh actually really helpful um we'll go
to the hands right after and i'm sure i'm going going to mix up the order, but that's okay.
So point being, this assuming that there's consensus, I think is another example of
we only see it when the symptom is there. And so, Dirk, what is that?
Like in the last few years, noticing and working on symptoms
and then also now, I mean, thus far,
we've spoken fairly theoretical about theories
and organizational theories and all of that,
which is basically very foundational.
And I would say, I would argue many times it's supposed to happen at the beginning of a new group and things like that,
which maybe that's the reason why we started talking about that and not talking about specific
symptoms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wrote an article, by the way, on Aave, what my view of this was. I think because people don't, what people see when they see tensions is things that need to be fixed, right?
And because the reasons we've been talking about, about the one right answer and this sort of oversimplification thing and, you know, the educational system, you you know anybody that recognizes the tension right
the immediate thing for them is geez how do I get rid of this tension your attention is obviously
bad and and that's not something that I want to have in me and it was funny because I remember
the moment um when I figured this out during my own meditation practice so when you live in a
monastery you're you're like meditating
a lot and so so i'm sitting there meditating and i'm like okay i have no worries in the world i
don't have any use for money my every single day is the same i don't have to really you know think
about much of anything except focus on myself and i'm meditating meditating and i'm like why does
my body still have tension in it and i just remember this this cultural thing in me which is constantly like how do i get rid of all this tension i was
thinking thinking thinking and then it was just dawned on me one day hey my body is not going to
be able to do unless i lay down on the ground and even then it was hard there's my body's not going
to get rid of tension my body is working against gravity So even if I'm sitting cross-legged and everything, I have to hold up my body. And so my body's going
to contain tension there because it's the nature of how it maintains its integrity. And it was just
like a lightning flash in my brain. I was like, okay, so that's the thing that I need to stop
sort of questing for. And I think I wish many people in organizations could,
instead of seeing that one guy who just doesn't get it as a problem,
or, you know, this one person is not in alignment, you know,
it's also a skill who, you know,
to try to resolve some of that stuff in a human way.
Sometimes it can not be done.
And I've experienced that even, you know,
within groups
that i've tried to found but um yeah and so i uh i'm a little far afield of the whole thing but i i
do want to just say that i hope everybody on this call gets the moment of recognition where they can
do all this better by kind of eliminating this kind of inherited thought.
You know, I think if you examine that thought, you'll realize that you inherited that thought.
It wasn't something new to you.
And you should have the agency and autonomy to be able to choose whether or not to engage,
you know, with tension productively or to see it as something that needs to be stamped out like
a mouse that's in your house or something. So please welcome the other hands to come up.
Yeah. Yeah, let's do it. I would love to hear from Kim first and then Will and then Angela
and then Stella and then Koi and then Matt and and then Koi, and then Matt, and then maybe also
more people.
And we are not entirely time-capped, but we won't go super, super long.
But yeah, go for it, Kim.
I'll be brief.
Hi, y'all.
I didn't step into Web3 until late, and I appreciate something that one of the ladies
said earlier about how we've seen now, we've tried and we know what went wrong.
And I wasn't involved in it.
I was watching it from the outside, sort of knowing directionally where it would go.
Because even though I suck at math, I'm really great at volumes and geometries and charts and things.
human ethical perspective, we just all need to consider the value of our time in exchange with
one another because I do think that after 2030, we will see some federal governance laws change
out of necessity and you guys will be the pioneers of that. So realize that I'm on the outside. I'm
not going to buy NFTs. If you want me to have yours, I'm happy to take it. But
the engagement function around ownership as we didn't resolve it for HOAs and then we had DAOs
and then it all got built into smart contracts, except we're all finite people. So functionally,
the philosophical component values smart people trying to do the right thing that already did the wrong thing. I love how you make fun of yourselves in arrears. We need more of that.
And I'll just tell you, no one has replied to McGraw Hill, which manages most of the school
books for our country on this platform, kind of in forever. So realize that you can protest with
your voice by going and replying to entities that need to change and no one tells them because we all wait until they put out an RFP to hire someone to tell them to change.
The end.
Can I just speak to that real quick?
Because I meant to mention it before.
One of the things that I have in my prevolution framework is a whole cumulative sort sort of pre-evolution series that i have on
paragraph that and the whole idea is just to recognize the nature of the the change right
and to proactively evolve so understand that whatever it is you build in your idealistic
beginning of whatever it is whether it's a dow or that's going to need to undergo either evolution or revolution
at some point.
And so building the evolutionary structures that will enable you to respond to these new
stresses or new opportunities or business situations or macroeconomic conditions, this
stuff should be built in, in my view, to the nature of designing things, right?
And so those things need to be designed.
And, you know, just understanding the nature of what you're engaged in, I think, is super important.
super important and and also just you know just understand that that a huge part of why like
transparency and then some of the other things are important is because one of the biggest evils of
all this stuff is information asymmetry and the way that extraction works functionally is that
you basically you know i mean everyone who is massively succeeding in the marketplace right now has some kind of information asymmetry.
Palantir, for example, is built on massive information asymmetry that you can just gather from anybody's devices.
Facebook is built on the fact that they're a monopoly. I mean, if you talk to the best investors in the world,
what's the Oracle from Oklahoma or whatever they call that guy,
he's like the greatest investor of all time.
The thing he looks for is organizations that build moats.
That's literally the definition of what they're looking for when it comes to to, you know, investing in something. Right.
So the whole thing is the whole thing is fundamentally built on information asymmetry.
And if you can create a information asymmetry in your company, then you'll be successful in an extractive setup.
So, yeah, so that's that's all I would say. And I think we need to be prepared for this kind of thing.
you know in advance and then there are patterns to all that so uh you can read you know my whole
You know, in advance.
series on pre-evolution about designing systems that evolve instead of having to go through these
constant uh revolutions right and so the only way that i know how to do this is to subsume extraction
within the regenerative impulse to make the regenerative impulse greater more effective and Paul Sivitzsche 1,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201,0201, principle, right? And so if you look for those,
you will find them and you can outcompete the extractive stuff. So it's a mental shift.
And one that's hard for us to make because we're just taught to kind of accept the world the way Yeah. So I agree with that.
Correct.
And I also see that it's difficult, which is another point. Maybe we'll get to that. Like, how do we find the things to the blogs that we and DurgaDust specifically
is also referencing.
It's paragraph, with a P-A-H,
paragraph.com slash durgaDust.eth.
It's an actual Web3,
pretty decentralized, arguably fairly
more decentralized than other things, blog.
And yeah, that is where... It's just helpful to think through these things, blog. And yeah, that is where,
like it's just helpful to think through these things,
I think.
And great point.
I just want to challenge you real quick on that.
Okay.
Don't wait for somebody to come with an awesome framework
that you can get behind or a person who you believe in.
Take responsibility for yourself right now.
Own everything that you have.
Own everything. It's fundamentally the most important part of this whole thing.
You know, there's no way around this. You have to operate inside out, right? There's only one
real way to operate healthily. And so what we see in the world right now, the Trumps and the Palantir's and even these other certain network states and all these things, these people are operating outside in.
And this is how we're trained to think.
We're trained to think, OK, somewhere out there exists the magic system.
And if we just align ourselves with that, then it will solve all of these internal problems for us.
That's that's that's the unhealthy way of looking at it the first thing to do is you change
internally and this is a thing by the way that i discovered also at the monastery and why i
consider my life to be a before and after story is because the moment i understood myself better
the world appeared differently to me and so so foundationally, all the stuff that I'm writing
about is not about the stuff out there. It's about encouraging you to take responsibility for
yourself. And then once you do that, then these things become obvious as opposed to something
some guy wrote one time, right? Or something, you know, it's like the way people often treat you know religious
things it's like that one guy that one time two thousand years ago was able to do this but you
can't you know it's like well why not you know it's like well because you know uh it only he
had a special quality and and so that's just that you, everything about the way we're organized and cultured, you know, everywhere you look for a solution to the problems that I think we're all facing, what you find is this outside in approach.
And the only way that really works to be healthy and to become, frankly, regenerative is to work inside out.
So I just wanted to, you know, don't go read my essays don't don't
read anything i've ever said or think about anything i've ever done go take complete and
absolute responsibility for everything you do from now and if you do that then you're a region
by default automatically without having to align with any particular agenda or platform or think of yourself as that,
you know. So that solves everything, right? You know yourself, you know who you are,
and you know your relationship to the nature of, you know, the undivided universe, you know,
and you can take responsibility for your behavior and your actions and your thoughts
without actually being them, then that's the foundation of regenerativity.
And the regenerative attitude comes from that.
So I'm just saying, don't listen to anything I'm saying.
Go off and live it internally, and then you'll automatically win the regen versus extraction
game.
I love that. That resonates so much. and then you'll automatically win the regen versus extraction game.
I love that. That resonates so much.
It is, yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Will, welcome on stage.
Thank you so much, Dorgadasz.
Good to see you here to support you.
I'm getting ready to head out because I have a good work opportunity tonight.
And so I'll drop down to the audience to listen to your answer.
But first question first, have you read the recent report, Blockchains for Good by Myosin?
I started to.
I didn't finish it.
Okay.
So initial reaction, thoughts on it, thoughts on exposing this information to people outside of this space so they can understand that our space better and kind of the challenges
that we're facing right now within the space.
Like I said, I'm going to drop down the listener role.
Look forward to your response.
I'll be hopping in the car and good to see you, my friend.
Hopefully I'll be seeing you again in a couple of weeks.
Yeah, give me a link.
I don't remember what tab I have it in.
Oh, I'll put it in the Jumbotron app.
I'll do you one better.
Yeah, or DM it to me or whatever works for you.
All right.
I just put it in the Jumbotron.
Oh, thanks.
Yeah.
Yep.
No problem.
So I guess as much as you've gotten into it so far, just initial reactions to that and, you know, the ability to be able to expose this to people outside of the space so they can understand our space better.
Yeah.
So is somebody else next?
Yeah, I also haven't read the report yet, but thank you for bringing it up, Will.
It does sound interesting and worth checking out.
So thanks for surfacing that report. I wanted to make a connection between something that Stella said and something that Regis was in Regis' writing about tension and that he was talking about.
And that is, she was talking about failure and about how everybody's talking about, you know, the failure of these communities and things like that. And it, it just reminds me that like, when we're talking about approaching things scientifically, you're, you're talking about failure. It's part of the process. And you, you actually, you actually can't get answers without
it. And seeing it as a negative thing has to do with tension that's created with capital and the fact that capital expects winning always.
And failure is bad because it means that you're losing capital as opposed to seeing capital as a resource that is on the path to winning.
And you have to throw some at failure before you get to the winning place.
And to that end, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, I was going to say, this is really, you know, part of the tension that we had
struggled with in setting up our company and what structure we wanted to use and how
we would balance venture capital interests against potentially doing a token launch or
how to raise and that sort of thing. Ultimately, what we came up with was an idea that was taking venture capital, but including buyback clauses that allowed us to not get on the treadmill to IPO train,
which is usually very problematic if you want to be regen.
And in a way that would return a win for venture, but also return a win for the company and the community we're building
inside of employees by returning those shares back to employables. So like there are solutions.
I don't know if this will work because there wasn't a path forward. So we had to make up one.
And, you know, i just want to encourage people
not to be afraid to fail um that's part of it that's part of life that's part of
finding out the right path is walking down some of the wrong ones sometimes um and if you can just
stay present in wherever you're at even if it's in failure it's okay because
there's something that you're going to learn from that and you just have to hold on to those things
really but we really just need to stop treating failure as a bad thing and and get out of our minds that it's a bad word yeah and to that end
there's a one of my favorite TED talks ever is by a guy named Stuart Firestein
and it's called the pursuit of ignorance and he's literally talking about how if
you imagine knowledge as a circle and no matter how fast you know we need to
goes into statistics about how many research papers are, blah, blah, blah.
But the the size of ignorance is always outpacing the size of knowledge.
And so he, I think, had this flip over in his mind in the same kind of way that I'm asking you guys to take responsibility for yourselves.
And in the same way, I realized that intentional integrity is you know inherent to my physical being it's it's inherent to the nature of
the pursuit of knowledge that ignorance is always going to be outpacing you and it doesn't matter
how smart you are it doesn't matter how many people are pursuing your particular field, ignorance is always going to be larger than
that circle, no matter how big that circle is. So it goes exactly to your point. And so to turn
it into a positive thing, to change over your thinking from I'm making a failure to I've
actually learned another thing that I didn't know before or another approach to I've actually learned another thing
that I didn't know before or another approach
or I've sidestepped a whole category of problems.
And so much of what we think of as sort of given knowledge
is really just a category error,
like people are thinking about things completely
in an upside down way. And so, yeah.
Stella, do you want to go next? I think you were next on my list, but I don't see your hand anymore.
Just wanted to... I see Koi with his hand up. And then we'll go to Koi's hand.
I see Koi with his hand up.
And then we'll go to Koi's hand.
Go to Koi. I'm good.
Okay, Koi.
Welcome, Koi. Great to have you.
Hi, everyone.
Thanks for having me.
I'm happy to be here.
Yeah.
Jumping on this conversation,
I think this is one of the most relevant spaces I've joined, really.
Like, I'm really kind of not only passionate about the topic, but deeply living this deeply
in my life on Web3
I would say I'm using a lot of
hats in different organizations
and when I started it was
like
very
was a good not a good
energy but was easy
was an easy energy
to access I would say and with time like i would
say that i took more than i should i realized that that how much the symbolism was like
heavy to care by one individual and like even one organization or just one narrative or just one perspective of the truth.
Right. What we are doing here.
So, yeah, I think this is what this was one of the biggest learnings I had.
I'm working on this space like for three years and I can definitely look to the past,
like for the things I did, the reports and how I was communicating.
And today, like being present in the situations and going to the problems that comes with commitments we do and grants we get, right? How much like...
There is a lot of interactions beyond that,
beyond the funding that was allocated, right?
It's not just like a number there,
how much people were involved or something like that.
There is a lot of like,
how was the quality of this relation?
This determinant like defines like more the output than than the rest, I would say.
So yeah, this was one of the biggest learnings I had. I'm really having this connection with all
Having this connection with all these problems that are not only about Web3 helped me to understand the values that are behind the technology at the beginning. How can we kind of also criticize what is happening now?
So it gave me also a perspective on how to approach things.
I want to bring some things we have discussed with us.
Can I just take a point for a quick second?
Yeah, please. with us uh i think you have an article point for a quick second um yeah there's an article on my paragraph that talks about um beyond funding right there are these fundamental paradoxes that exist
at the root of sort of modern life and tech life and and uh the the tech first approach which was
kind of the the pretext of the space you know, we don't just do tech first.
We just we pick one thing and then we just stay on that.
And the reason why I put the beyond funding thing was because, you know, we really have kind of two major plays.
We have the the funding play and we have the game theory play.
Right. And if funding and game theory doesn't solve it we don't have any idea
what the heck we're supposed to do never mind having examined the fundamental paradoxes that
are at the root of all this stuff and so there's a whole bunch of them that are listed in that
article and those are the ones I think that we should be solving for so speed depth paradox is
one there's a whole list of them there i hope you guys will have a
look at that because i would sure love us to get engaged in an effort to solve those paradoxes
versus you know just you know if you get funding what are you going to spend the funding on it
should be solving the fundamental paradoxes that are at the root of what we have going on so that
speaks i think to the kind of thing that you're talking about, Khoi. So please, go ahead.
Yeah, I think understanding the paradoxes that
are inherent on the Web3 organizations
and having so much past experiences that have failed,
I think since I'm like, I'm three years on this space. So I could get, learn from this and like from the past experiences and like looking to the content.
Like when I got in contact with Gravity Doubt, I think the first time I got in contact with your articles was with the ethical funding framework where you were were proposing an addition to the quadratic funding.
It was pretty cool.
That article inspired me to kind of how we were doing
the region here in the Rio de Janeiro round on Gitcoin last year.
I even mentioned that on the report.
So this opened for me the grounding that I was kind of looking for to map.
I don't want to say fix things, but I would say that helped me to take better decisions because I could map the territory where I was stepping in.
I started to see the paradoxes that were on the design that I've created for the program
and also after that on the program we are running now, Greenpool Brazil Commons.
I think this is also a result of it.
I think one of the challenges is that there is a limit for how much we can cognitively kind of understand something, right?
There is a capacity that we should respect.
And I think this is the biggest and most hard, most challenge-ful task, basically, because this is related with an inner change
and talking in different ways with yourself and things like that.
So I think this is where the limit is.
where the limit is.
We need to expand our comprehension
about how we embed these paradoxes,
but we have a limit of how much we can handle
of guilty and a lot of stuff
that we need to recognize in this process.
This is the biggest challenge, I would say.
I think it's important that organizations... I'm sorry there's a bunch of people with their hands up, but I just want to insert this thing. One of the things that I learned through my journey with AI situation, you know, and being autistic and trying to figure out how to operate this way with all this bandwidth, you know, that I have sort of naturally, I needed some way to express myself with some bandwidth. And so what I figured out from that is there's a,
there's an ontological bandwidth problem.
That is to say, how much can somebody actually,
you know, ingest and then process.
And so for me, the interface with AI, basically,
if you read my exocortex series, I know it's long, but there's
the part seven of it, if you just want to get down to the organizational part of it, I make
recommendations, there's four different parts of it. One is, you know, the ingestion portion,
the second part is the archival, and the third part, then if you use AI to do the ingestion and
the archival, then you can revisit that over and
over again while you're doing sensemaking. What that does is it kind of creates this buffer,
this time buffer, whereby it will allow you to process in whatever ontological bandwidth you
have internally, given your situation, your circumstance, how much you're working and so on and then that you can go back
to it to the archive you can go back to what got adjusted and you know continue to process and
whatever makes sense for you in my case it's just like a massive amount of processing and anybody
who knows me knows how massively i process but but it's also true that other people are going to have
and and so just having that buffering
thing in there for your own ontological bandwidth is very important, and in order to induce
ontological and epistemic flexibility, you actually have to have the ability to accurately
self-assess what your ontological and epistemic bandwidth is, so the idea is how much you can change and what to change right and so both of
those two things together sort of sum up you know what it actually takes to you know go through both
personal and organizational change and i think um ontological bandwidth is a thing that we need to
you know both account for and figure out how to measure and monitor and report on within our organizations and whatever comes after DAOs.
Yeah, I definitely need to learn more how to
create this buffer. I think this would help.
I'm trying to
have time, to open time.
I think this is something that helps sometimes
and treat things as not like ultimate.
So I already can deal with failure and learn from the process,
but maybe I need more intention.
I need to learn how to be more intentioned
and, like, fail winning.
Have a fail that is a winning kind of.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for your input there, Koya.
I call that failing forward.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you all for having attention and sharing this space.
Kim?
Thank you, y'all.
I love being around smart people.
And what I would love to see now as a pretend external consultant
that won't be hanging around is if you guys would write down action items.
Grokopedia will eventually pick it up probably.
But if you'll write down action items underneath this meeting or wherever, whoever is guiding this says to put it.
That one fellow is so smart that I figure he could probably just repost his article and say use use the replies
under this and that could last for a whole year so how these are managed quarterly monthly with
who when where and why in builds in public is how the civil engineering structure of the social
component can resolve for a lot of the economic deficits of the try and fail of what we're about to do.
100% I agree with that. Go for it, do it. Yeah, and I would just say that one of the things that I
have not effectively done and would like actual help from all of you or people you know,
is to figure out how to make all of this more actionable in a cohort situation, right?
Triggs asked me a question after my most recent article, and he said, you know, how does somebody,
like, you know, he goes, like, I was jacked up after reading that. It was so motivational,
I wanted to actually do something. And then by the end,
you just kind of left me hanging there
with like no action items
or call to action or anything.
I'm like, yeah, I know.
Like, I just don't, you know,
I have all these things.
I've, you know, thought of all this stuff.
Like I have a whole discord
for blockchain philosophers
that no one comes to.
And I have a million, you know,
different places that I'm sort of expressing
myself but I do feel like yeah I need you know I need help I mean I you know I've made 12 million
words of output since and enumerable graphics and all kinds of stuff and you can look up on my image
and stuff like I've got a whole bunch of conceptual graphics on there too that go into a lot of depth
about all this stuff as well but but yeah you know I just can't do it on my own right so you've got a whole bunch of conceptual graphics on there too that go into a lot of depth about all this stuff as well.
But, but yeah, I, you know, I just can't do it on my own. Right.
So you've got some people with the network nations and network states that were organizing around that guy's, you know, ideas.
So, you know, if, if any of you want to really engage with this stuff or, you know, really, you know, get connected, but I'm trying to figure out how we
would go about doing that together. And I would love to get into a co-creation situation. And,
and I mean, I just, you know, I'm basically like a walking encyclopedia of all this stuff. And,
and those of you who really want to engage with it, I want to give you a way to do that, you know,
and it's, you know, not, not easy. And it's not simple, but at the same time, I feel to give you a way to do that, you know, and it's, you know, not, not easy and it's not
simple, but at the same time, I feel like, you know, we could do a lot of good if we could
just really connect deeply with understanding the nature of these principles. And so I have to keep,
you know, putting information out there in the hope that, you know, one day maybe somebody will
pick it up and go, you know, I actually do actually do want to you know participate in whatever that is and i'm not holding myself up as any particular thing but i just feel like
i'm aligning with principles i'm aligned with foundational fundamental first order you know
principles and and i feel like there's still got to be a place for that in in the world and i think that that might be foundational to um us
turning this thing around uh and and getting getting away from this uh idea of you know
like everything's going to hell or whatever like like you know i mean even if i'm on a boat that's
sinking you think i'm going to stop bailing do you know what i mean like no i'm not going to do that
at all in fact it seems more important that i'm going to be bailing and it seems like i have more of a responsibility if it's my freaking
boat to keep on bailing so like you know anyway so this is my attempt to to bail out whatever
is going on with the the boat we have actually made me happy about building in this time.
I feel as if a certain sense of desperation has actually made people want to listen to alternative solutions.
And for the first time, people are saying, okay, yeah, it does totally
need. They're starting to get uncomfortable with the way that things are enough that they're
willing to listen, you know, and start talking about some of the solutions. And Koi said earlier something, this isn't just about Web3.
And that reminded me that I used to try to solve all the problems with Web3.
And I realized that there was a problem I was trying to solve.
And sometimes Web3 didn't end up being the solution.
three didn't end up being the solution.
And it doesn't need to be the solution to everything.
And it doesn't need to be the solution to everything.
And that hybrid approaches
exist and they need to, you know, we need to explore those
even more and not be afraid to do that.
But what I saw at the beginning in Web3 was like, oh, Web3 doesn't work.
I'm just going to abandon it and go right back to where I came from
and run things exactly the same as the, you know, traditional.
And it's like, no, no, don't do that.
Don't do that.
The problem still exists there that we were trying to solve with Web3 in the first place.
Just maybe Web3 wasn't the solution for that particular thing.
Or you have to see why is Web3 not working and fix the things that aren't working.
You can't ignore the fact that those problems existed and just go back to what we know.
And that's my entire problem with the network nations and network states idea.
Yeah, right.
It's like, oh, let's you know god kings in place and and think
because you know they they run tech something you know that's that's going to be better you know
what i mean like we're just choosing the same i you know solution i started i started calling it
by the name that it should be called by and that's techno feudalism that's right and the underlying ethos come of nation you know uh of balaji's ideas around uh
you know nation states and crypto states is is based on techno feudalism and we need to call
it that because it's so important for people to connect those dots and then understanding
if that that is moving backwards that's moving
back towards totally that didn't work that we moved from because it didn't work for humanity
that's right and that well and you can't put tech on top of feudalism and expect it to just work
then there were two really key um and excellent papers you can get on JSTOR and stuff that I would recommend.
One is called, I'll come back to it, but the other one is about the implicit feudalism of online communities.
And I think the beginning of the thing was mods, admins, and benevolent dictators for life, the implicit feudalism of online communities.
And I think what's happened is that the Facebookism
and the Redditism and just the nature of the way
all of these things are constructed
have made the feudalistic construct really palatable
for everybody because it's what they're so used
to interacting with, right? And so it's even with X so used to interacting with right and so it's even with
x you know with all this you know there's a there's a feudalistic setup here which then just trains
people to continue to accept this thing over and over again so that i think validates your point
but um the the other one is an extraordinary document that actually is a technical analysis of the nature of wisdom at the end of the world.
So I think it's I can't remember the exact name of it now, but it's like, oh, yeah, abysmal leadership theory.
So the idea being, how do you lead at the end of the world? So that is to say
that there was a book that was written that talked about these two
warring native bands, I think in Ohio somewhere. And during colonialism, what happened was they
had been basically they had constructed a society in which everything that was constructed in their society from a
cultural standpoint was about harming the other tribe. It was nothing else. So if you had money
or women or status, whatever that was in that culture, you got all of that status just from
harming the other person. And there was a binary setup and the entire thing was set up like that. And then when colonialism came in, they were like, now, hang on. Now we have a common enemy.
But the thing is, is that one of those groups chose to, you know, be like, hey, we'll live,
you know, with the colonial folks. And the other one was like, we're going to go now to war against
them. And of course, the colonialists eliminated the people who went to war with them and eliminated a lot of the people who were leading that had some inner wisdom and some
additional layer of where did they get the information from. And so you actually see this,
like, have you ever seen the Murabit Kundun? You know, it's about the Dalai Lama, this most recent
one. And he had a similar kind of situation where the Chinese, you know, it's all loudspeakers
everywhere so that we could meditate. And there's just like this whole thing where the Chinese just kept
taking over, taking over and taking over. And the way that they escaped that was to use all
these old traditional ways. And they managed to find a way out to, you know, get the Dalai Lama
out of, you know, Tibet before he was, he was killed. And so, so both of these examples are really excellent in terms of
just really contextualizing the work that you're doing and taking leadership to the level where
you have something beyond just the mental models, right? There's something that exists
that you can derive wisdom from that comes from that internal place of you know being healthy just internally not
just mentally healthy but spiritually healthy and generative in that sense right and so the
only reason i really feel like i have anything to hold forth on or at this point is because i've
i've gone through the transformational process of undergoing that within myself and so I can now you know from a from a hey I've been
there kind of situation you know say to somebody else that maybe you know choosing this over that
might make some sense you know and so but yeah these are all great you can look these papers up
and so visible leadership theory and mods adm, and benevolent dictators for life, the implicit feudalism of online communities.
So, I would look those up.
Thank you for sharing really, really good points and shows, again, like how the nature of the digital and the online space, and not just since blockchain or because of crypto,
there are dynamics that come along with digital space.
And for instance, the admin dynamic,
someone needs to set up something online.
And that usually means that that is just inherently
a position in account that is, yeah,
that exactly is not exactly equal.
Yeah, and this happened to me when i was at the monastery too
you know people would get inspired because i would say this or that and they would come and
they go i'd do anything you told me to do i'm like stop that don't do that it doesn't help you
it doesn't help me all it's going to do is going to make make me think that i'm all that and if i
get too far down that road it's, there's no coming back from that.
Right.
So, you know, just please don't do that.
So like, so, so just, you know, having the wherewithal to understand, you know, to remain
in this kind of humble position is really important.
And to, to recognize, you know, the, the traps that are waiting for you.
So even if you are saying and doing a bunch of things
and you get a bunch of people going,
yeah, you're awesome,
then you just have to be like,
okay, well, hang on.
Stop that.
This doesn't help me.
And it certainly doesn't help you.
All we're doing is recreating the same freaking dynamic
that got us into this place.
So just don't.
I'm really happy that we have more voices up on stage,
and I'm excited to get to them.
Before we do, I will just say transparently,
I will say the next, let's say, four or five minutes is last call.
So if you are interested and open to speaking,
please feel free to come up on stage.
And after that...
And by the way, I'll stay here
as long as you need to.
No, we'll stay here longer than that. We'll stay here
longer than five minutes. I'm just saying, new speakers,
please
feel free to request in the next few minutes
and then
we'll just
kind of start to
limit the inflow and have that clarity a little bit.
But we'd love to hear from more people.
And I don't really like calling people out from the audience.
So yeah, because sometimes I'm listening and I don't want to be called out.
That's why I don't really do that that much.
So let's now, before we get to Koi, and I also saw Graham and Means for Trees and Afro
came out on stage.
Excited to hear from all of you.
Let's first get to Matt,
who's been here since pretty much the beginning of the space
and maybe can speak now and has a noun PFP.
And that's always great.
It's a public noun.
And also nouns has a structure
that actually tries to not have admins
because of equal distribution or whatnot.
Anyhow, Matt, are you there?
Yes, I am.
Is my mic working? Can you hear me okay? it is oh wow that's that's a first i think
i feel like uh i've been struggling with spaces for a bit here but uh yeah um well sometimes
technology works what do you think about this conversation i don't even know exactly how to
how to dive in let me just let me just run through the couple of things,
the couple of notes that I've written down
and then open it back up to everybody else.
So yeah, how to dive in exactly, so much has been said.
And I won't kiss Thurgoodass's ass
based on what he just said.
He's okay, he's decent.
For me, the most powerful stuff about kind of what we've been going through
within this RepoGarden season is the understanding,
like specifically the shared language aspect of it,
I think has been super powerful.
And that's been like very noticeable within calls that have kind of happened
after the fact.
So I think that's, yeah, that's, that's like the biggest one for sure.
And it's like, it's obvious, like many,
many of us have noticed it while we're in the call.
Yeah.
So I got a shared language and good strategy.
So I think shared language and like really honing in on good strategy is
potentially the key for like truly constructive cross-pollination.
So it's not just like, Oh, cross-pollination coordination,
let's just get people in a room and things will happen. Like that,
that's not really the case more often than not. I, I, it's just wasted energy.
Um, not all the time, but more, more often than it should be. Um,
something simple said really resonated earlier was you know
this is not anything new we're kind of just trying to capture the old knowledge and like
make it work within this new wrapper that is blockchain um and yeah i i think a lot of people
really understand that at this point but i know a lot of people really understand that at this point.
And I know a lot of people misquote for saying out loud.
But yeah, just double tapping on that.
The speed depth paradox is another one of those things where it's like, boom, this right here gets people aligned.
I really, really appreciate that.
Also confusing outputs and outcomes.
That's another one like the the
lights switched on um and personally for me one one thing that was touched on is also um i think
it was manager versus leader i don't remember if correct me if that's the second term is yeah
manager versus leader articulating that and like hearing, okay, that makes a lot of sense.
I now know that while I'm figuring things out on the fly,
I'm very much a manager.
That's the role I've kind of assumed
within this organization.
And it's, as always, through anything in life,
it's nice to kind of understand
where the heck you are within things.
And yeah, that, that's been a very powerful thing for me.
And then my final note is.
Can I explain that for them after?
Yes, please.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
I just boom, boom, boom.
Yeah.
Please finish your last thought there.
No, no, no.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Totally.
Yeah.
So, so, so just, I, I, I'm going to really encourage you. Totally. Yeah. So, so, so just,
I'm going to really encourage you guys to go read Richard Ruhmelt's work.
So he's got a book called the crux and a book called good strategy,
bad strategy. And when I started reading good strategy, bad strategy,
it was like, I was obsessed with it for like three months.
I redid all of the strategic stuff for the DAOs and it didn't do that enough
in time to save it really.
But I got to a little too late there. But in the end, you know, I was like, oh, you know, no wonder this is failing.
So much of our strategy is bad. And it's like, oh, my God, you know, so many problems.
But one of the awesome things and Richard Rommel himself is incredible.
So, like, right now, the thing that is the farthest man-made object in the world or, you know, in the solar system from us was the thing that he designed and put together when he was working at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
And so his entire role was to coordinate between all the different groups, right?
And all the different people who were making the specific components of the Voyager.
And then he actually had to put them together and create trade-offs and figure out what
works best.
And so that thing is now nine times its planned life, the guy who designed that thing.
And he's the guy who wrote the book on strategy. So for me, it was like,
Oh my God, I want to listen to what that guy says, you know, number one.
And so there's just so many cool nuggets of wisdom in there that he talks
about. And one of them is this a leader versus manager thing.
And I thought that was really instructive because in my, you know,
work in gravity, we dealt with a lot of conflict. And in fact, before we kind of, you know,
closed up shop at gravity, we were going to start a podcast called running toward the fire. Right.
And so the whole idea being that, you know, taking that attitude of like, okay, you know,
it's our job to run toward the fire
and run toward the conflict run toward the and there's a very useful attitude i think to have
about a conflict and if you don't have that attitude toward conflict and then so you're what
you're going to put a lot of time energy and effort into is going to fail and this the lesson
you might not learn out of it which frankly you know in my experience a lot of time, energy, and effort into is going to fail. And the lesson you might not learn
out of it, which frankly, you know, in my experience, a lot of people do it A, way too late,
and B, fail to learn the lesson, is, you know, exactly that. But the point I'm getting to about
the Richard Rimmel's work is one of the most useful things out of all those books, good strategy, best strategy. And the crux is this idea of the leader versus manager. So the
idea of a leader is that the leader has a higher appetite for risk and their role should be to
produce breakthroughs in performance. That's it. That's all that you have to say about the leader.
Higher appetite for risk produces breakthroughs in performance. If they don't
produce breakthroughs in performance, they're not leaders. A manager on the other hand is also
necessary and just as important. They're just two different things. Now we tend to deify the leader
and sort of whatever to the manager, but both of them working together is a force multiplier right it's five
times the amount of force you would get um by uh by looking at it both ways right so um you know so
i mean even the military knows this you usually have a co and then then you have a ceo right so you've got a guy whose job it is to
be the final guy making the decision that's his responsibility and then you have another guy whose
job it is to make that stuff operate right and so even though you've got you know i'm not trying to
say the military is a good thing but i am saying operationally they understand that there are these
two different sets of minds that need to be put to whatever
thing you happen to be doing. So it's enough of a principle that even, you know, a military
organization could figure it out. So, yeah, so managers have a lower appetite for risk and like
to make incremental changes. And so being able to just identify which one you are you know accurate self assessment is a huge part of mental health but it's also critical when it comes to.
Michael Boucher, M.D.: sort of almost volunteer organizations like ours, who just show up and somebody's doing the work and who knows when anyone's getting paid you know and so.
So if you don't self-assess that, if you've got a guy who has a low appetite for risk, but at the same time is thinking that he's a leader, then there's a problem, right?
If you have somebody who's a leader who's now sort of shoehorned into a managerial mindset, you know, to just produce incremental, it's never going to make sense for them, right?
never going to make sense for them. Right. So, uh, yeah. So I, I just think, you know,
from a personnel standpoint and from a strategy standpoint, I think a lot of decentralized
organizations don't have a strategy for personnel, which is a massive problem. And so toward that
end, I think if you had more insight on who you're dealing with a leader versus a manager
versus a participant, you know, versus a leader versus a manager versus a participant you know
versus a consumer like just knowing who those different people are and those different
personalities that can help uh construct your onboarding it could clarify quite a lot of things
you know you make sure you've got managers and leaders paired up and working together as a team
so if you've got a working group boy you better have a manager in there and you better have a leader in there.
Otherwise, you're going to have a substandard working group, right?
So that's all I wanted to say about that.
This is great.
I'm so glad this is a recorded space.
Matt, was there more of your points
from your notes?
The one final thing was,
and hopefully
Dirk and I can touch on this, I'm not even going to
bother attempting to ramble, but
your battery, like
your individual battery, can
kind of tie into consent
when dealing with others i thought that
was also a pretty powerful thing yeah um so i have a whole paragraph article on that and i think
i don't know if i revamped it to include the consent stuff but i'm going to be doing that
at some point one of the things i kind of identify is that there's four different kinds of batteries
there's personal battery there's a relational, there's a relational battery, there's a contribution battery.
And it's kind of like a, what do you want to say?
What's the term I use?
Inspirational battery, right?
So like, you know, in the regen space,
I think we all want to be regens, right?
But I found that a lot of people
don't really know what regen even means,
or they all have different ideas about what it means, and so so just understanding that maybe you've got you know a life outside of
whatever dow or web3 project you happen to be working on right so you know when i used to work
with athletes and it becomes relevant in that situation too is because i used to to take the
extrinsic stress the person was feeling like oh we just moved or
my parents just got a divorce or i got an injury or i got all these different things i would i
would measure a percentage of the total volume of the person's you know athletic thing i would take
this extrinsic stress and assign a percentage to it just based on my feeling about it.
And so I could account for that as a part of the thing. Right. And so translating that over into this other batteries kind of thing, I think, makes a little bit of sense.
So you've got this personal battery, you know, and Jesus, did you exercise or taking care of yourself or meditating?
Are you reading books? Are you around people that make sense for you right um you know and that's that's a relational battery
and so and then there's i'm sorry that's a personal battery and then there's a relational
battery so the the relational battery can obviously have a huge effect on your personal battery so if
you're in a relationship that's not working for you or if you're in a relationship that's not working for you, or if you're in a relationship that is working for you, but requires a lot of sacrifice,
like Matt's raising a child, you know, it's going to pull energy out of Matt,
because the baby needs to be given energy, right? So that's a relational and interface to
his personal, right? And that's very natural. And then there's gonna be this, now, Matt's gonna show up with that,
and that's gonna evolve with time,
but then he's gonna show up to contribute
to his organization like Greenville.
And there's gonna be a certain capacity limit
that he's gonna have
because the percentages for his relational wellbeing
and his personal wellbeing arebeing are going to be perhaps taking
up more of his time, then that'll affect how much contribution that he has. And he might keep
showing up at things because he's really inspired and down with the whole thing. And he's really
on board with the whole master plan of the regen world or whatever intentional thing was going on there.
And by the way, I will say a lot of the things that we're talking about in these communities have all been done before.
And one of the things that, you know, having lived in a monastery and all these places, intentional communities are nothing new to me.
And living real life with people is a part of that but there's a
whole organization called ic.org intentional communities.org they they uh they have a whole
library of amazing books that any web3 person could take a hell of a lot of inspiration from
and and build you could build an entire dow just out of the stuff you'd see in that. I own most of their library.
So I could give you some recommendations if you want it.
But yeah, I mean, so these all stack up, right?
So if you don't have the inspiration,
are you just gonna keep showing up?
Or if your contribution isn't valued
or you're a leader when you should be a manager or and your
manager you should be a leader that's going to have a huge effect on your contribution right
and then if you know uh you're you're i mean i've seen a bunch of uh projects go down because in
two or three individuals inside of the container could not get along.
And so it was a constant issue there.
And so that's the relational battery.
So I think there's a bunch of interactions about all this
that these things have together.
One of them is consent, right?
So we typically think about consent in terms of touching
or, well, you know, but I would really strongly recommend you guys read some of Betty Martin's work.
She's got a couple of videos out there and I love one particular graphic that she's got where it talks about how consent actually works.
how consent actually works. And I'm trying to get, you know, a developer or somebody to work
with me on encoding those things into a fundamental way that we can interact with things on the
blockchain and smart contracts and DAOs and other stuff to use as like a consent protocol.
So if anybody's interested in working on, you know, I've got a million of these protocols that
I'd like to build into
something. So that's part of the reason why I'm asking people for help. And I'm just not
a software developer, so I can't do it all. But yeah, because there's a consent protocol and
Betty Martin's work with the wheel of consent is really excellent and recommend you look that up
and take a look at the wheel and and it's quite illustrative about
how things work and the thing is is that if you're within the wheel of consent and you have an
understanding of what's going on that's going to help your relational and your contribution battery
and it's going to allow you to maintain your relational and your contribution and your
personal batteries and keep those up because someone's bothering to ask for your consent instead of just saying, OK, here's what we're doing.
You know, you'd say this is part of nonviolent communication to would you be willing to do you have the bandwidth for do you have, you know, this kind of thing
to do X, Y or Z, right? Instead of just assuming that everybody has bandwidth
and assuming that, you know, so there's also,
you know, a really great book by Byung-Chul Han
called The Burnout Society,
which actually talks about how our desire
to contribute to things positively, right?
We've actually weaponized
the inspirational battery thing against people
in such a way that now if we're inspired,
we keep showing up even though we are already burnt out, right?
And while I'm trying to positively contribute to this thing,
even though I really don't have any time, energy,
or emotional fortitude to be able to continue with the illusion that I can
properly contribute to this thing. And the reason why we keep doing this is because we've created
this thing called the Burnout Society, which basically it used to be back in the day that
people said, well, you got to work hard because you need to avoid negative consequences.
What happened, you know, in the 60s and 70s that all flipped around into this and somewhat
in the 50s, but after World War II, things shifted around. Instead of being motivated by avoiding
bad consequences, now we're actually chasing after aspirational things, and that never lets us
stop. So not only are we running from negative consequences, we're also running toward these aspirational things, which seem to always recede into the, into the mist before us. And so
it's no wonder we all end up burnout, right? And so this whole, going back to accurate self-assessment
and understanding the tension between these things and the paradox of our own,
you know, limited batteries, I've come up with these different frameworks to try to.
Andrew Rothman- convince people that it's okay to give themselves permission to maybe not do so many things right and so.
Andrew Rothman- And I have a whole architecture of time that i'm going to be writing a book about called virtual cycles and some of you might have been.
that I'm going to be writing a book about called Virtue of Cycles.
And some of you might have been in presentations that I've done on that in the past.
But yeah, so, you know, there's lots more in there to be discovered about your relationship with time.
And, you know, how do you I think my paragraph has one thing about discovering your tailwind on it,
which talks about my whole relationship with time thing in some general terms, you know, and it doesn't go into the details.
But yeah, things I discovered that are generally applicable across, I think, all energetic stuff that we're doing.
That's all based on my previous life as a elite athlete,
as you know, riding 600 miles a week
and training 25 to 40 hours a week.
You have to really, really, you know,
focus on your energy all the time.
There's different kinds of energy personally,
you know, in the bike racing kind of world,
but also there's different kinds of energy organizationally
and all this stuff.
So I think what I've tried to do is generalize this with the four batteries framework and specifically, you know, to focus in on how consent can really break down those batteries.
So I hope that was a reasonable intro.
I think this is, I mean, mean for me this is super helpful all right let's get to the hands
and let's also get to everyone who came up um we'll start with the hands starts with meme for
trees and angela and after that let's go to graham and afo and nansel i think that's about the order
that people can so let's go meme for trees meme for trees. Yeah, much love, everybody.
Thanks for having me.
You know, I'm listening, I'm learning.
I'm not actually that involved in the green pill stuff.
But I do like the concept and the idea, social structuring.
I guess that, like, I'm just intrigued at, like,
what do we think we can actually try that we haven't done before?
Like, I think this technology is incredibly powerful just because of the save game.
Like, we publicly can save information and value in a way that we couldn't before, and I think that that gives us a lot of power.
But actually structuring societies, it's, like, I guess the easiest thing to come up with would be some type of universal basic income thing.
But like, how do you actually create value in like society that accepts stuff like that is like the big question that makes all of this hard to work.
And like, you refer to it as like a feudalism like system.
it is like a feudalism-like system, but the largest difference that I see is you choose to join and you
can opt to leave, even if it's, you know, shunned or people are like, oh, how dare you? You know, so
like, I do think that that makes it different, but like you said, maybe that's not different enough.
So how do we actually change the power structure and the dynamic that these things
create? And I guess that's what that literature hopefully goes farther into. And I guess I
appreciate you sharing that with me. I just, it's a very interesting concept. So thank you guys for
your time. Yeah, I'd like to speak to that for a second. One of the things I like most about Ruhmelt's work is he actually quantifies the nature of power, right? And so, Koi, I think in my most recent critique of your
strategic thing, it was about how there was a relatively naive assessment of the nature of
power and what it actually takes. And so one of the things that's really important to understand is that one of the main
features of this one right answer idea is that it removes all power from you. It's your job
and what you're taught fundamentally from birth is to give away your power and to surrender your
power, right? And to make your ego permeable to someone else, just reaching in and grabbing all
the power that you have, right? Incrementally, this boiling frog, you know, a little bit of
temperature at the time is just little bits of access to power removed. And so you just get to
the point where it's like, oh, yeah, just another aspect of my power just got taken away, you know?
So everyone's caught up in this kind of mad scramble
for power. But because one of the problems with that is that we have all developed a power
blindness. We don't actually know even how to use power, what it's made of, or how, if we got any,
all of a sudden, how we would use it, right? Why do you think so many people who win the lottery suddenly go bankrupt?
It's the same kind of fiscal blindness that is imposed upon us by the banking system.
The banking system wants you to not know anything about the nature of what's going on. One of the
biggest problems you run into, every single person in this room right now has been like,
oh my God, what do you mean I'm in crypto and I have to manage every damn
thing myself? Is that shock of like, what do you mean? All of us have lost something
in the fact that we all now have to have self-custody. It's like, what do you mean I have
to have self-custody, right? So keeping us ignorant about the nature of finance and about
the nature of power is what powerful people in
a colonized setup or in an extractive setup are incentivized to prevent others from knowing. If
you can even prevent a person from understanding how to acquire money or power and make it a scarce
resource by itself, then when a person gets any money or any power,
then they immediately give it back to you because they don't know what to do with it. So they just
burn themselves out or they spend it all and that's it. So developing competence and the
language and a fluency and the same shared language thing that Matt was just talking about.
One of the most powerful concepts that I know in my head is about shared language.
If we can have a shared language about what it is to be powerful, we have a shared language about what it is to be competent at finances, right? And, I like, I'm 57 years old and I've literally in the last seven years or eight years
since I came to crypto gradually figured out and absolved myself of how to,
okay, how do I actually deal with the fact that I have a little bit of power
now? Cause I'm the founder of this thing and I'm carrying all this stuff.
And there's all these people and, oh, you know, you know,
how do I manage
money actually I never really had any money before because I was always an idiot with it
right and so so my point about this is that we we need a lot more things than just better
token mechanisms we need we need this we need to to be able to have a shared language about what power and money actually is.
And until then, we're just going to keep creating these game theoretical mechanisms that don't solve for the power problems.
It's going to be implicit in how we create tokens and tokenomic systems and DAOs and other stuff that we create these asymmetric information systems
and create these asymmetric financial systems because we don't know how to recognize the
shared language of money and of power. And so my point really is that is that, um, the guys with everything I've said for during the whole thing today,
um, don't listen to anything I said, go back and take responsibility for everything you have.
And, and that is your own relationship with power and your own relationship with finance.
And once you've gone through that transformational thing, like I did at the ashram, or now my
whole life is different because I had a transformational experience then you're trans there's only two functions of spirituality
there's transformation and translation so the transformational is this thing where now the
world seems different to you because you have gone through this transformation once the world
seems different to you then the
things that you say and the things that you do automatically change as a result of that that
transformation right and so so going and owning everything that you owning your own relationship
with power how much do you you know uh we get often raised in bad family circumstances. Or I mean, I know for myself,
my mom was, you know, a drug addict and everything. And I was basically taken on a parenting role
way too early. And so now, in all of my relationships with women going forward,
I have this pattern where I caretake because I was caretaking for my mother, you know, when I was
young. So these are all things that I didn't even know about until I got older because I was caretaking for my mother, you know, when I was young. So,
so these are all things that I didn't even know about until I got older and I had to go, okay,
well, I've got to actually take back a relationship with my power with respect to how that works and not caretake and just, you know, change internally so that I could see
better outcomes in my relationships. And, you know, so these are all things
that I have to work on personally.
And I'm being somewhat vulnerable with you guys here
with respect to that.
But, you know, my point is just that
ignore all of my paragraph things,
ignore everything I say,
and just go back and figure out what you can own,
what you can take personal responsibility for.
And if you do that, then
all the other stuff that you're asking me about now will just become obvious to you, right? Just
like any transformation that you go through. So if we can all work with each other to develop as
humans and to enable each other to go through these transformations, right? Because that's what's
going to have to happen, right? Every person that shows up in a DAO with us is going to have the
same set of extractive ideas in their head. They're not going to want to take responsibility
for themselves. They're not going to understand how power works. They're not going to understand
how money works. They're not going to understand any of this stuff. And so you have to go through like a training program. So now, okay, now you've
got to learn the shared language. And Matt was talking about the power of the shared language,
right? So once you have the shared language, then it becomes transformational. Now there's,
it feels like a tailwind for you, right? Every time you're having an interaction with somebody,
you're like, okay, now I can see and hear and understand. Just like when you learn a foreign language, right? Like now, right now,
I'm learning Spanish. And then what I'm finding is I'm, if I hear a Spanish word on the radio or
whatever, hey, I know some of those words. And so it just dawns on you in that same kind of way.
And so it just becomes this different thing, right? answer to your question is a long way around to
say how do we change the culture we have to change ourselves first and we have to be more invested in
coming up with ways to share language with each other and to ruthlessly go after that ourselves
and make sure that the people who are surrounding us are on board with the shared language thing.
And if they're not, then you need to kind of, you know,
think about how much time you want to spend people
who just really aren't.
People talk about alignment all the time.
The hell with alignment.
I want shared language for all of these things.
I want to...
Alignment is this like BS game theory concept,
but the real thing is the is having shared
language for all these different things and and and to be able to identify you know at a psychological
and a and a social sociological level how to help each other figure out how to have a healthy
relationship with the power and understand what is an unhealthy relationship with power
what is a healthy relationship with money look like what does an unhealthy relationship with the power and understand what is an unhealthy relationship with power. What does a healthy relationship with money look like? What does an unhealthy relationship with
money look like? And once those happens, then automatically the token that you build and
automatically the DAO that you build, automatically the power that you assume and is going to
transformationally change. Don't sit there and wait for some external structure or to show up
in some DAO that's like, oh, yeah, they have the structure.
Therefore, everything's going to be going to be fixed.
No, it's an invitation for you to personally change.
And you have to be willing to go through some stress about it. and I were talking about earlier, which is to undergo this ontological bandwidth, you know,
thing to shift, you know, where your thoughts are and how you identify with power and money
and any number of other things, you know. So I hope that that's a long explanation, but I hope
it answers your question. Yeah, I don't think there was a short answer for how do you change the world. So thank you.
No, but I just did. So.
I think that's the shortest they can get, probably. Yeah.
So thank you.
Change yourself. Take your responsibility for yourself.
That's the only prescription. So I was just going to address some of what memes for Tree's ass too about what haven't
we tried and about leaving when talking about the network state.
So first, what haven't we tried?
And I guess just to reaffirm what Regis said about starting with yourself. Instead, we should be asking,
what haven't I tried? What haven't I done that I know I can do today? Start there. But in answering the question, what, what haven't we tried? I think there's a lot,
actually. There's a lot we haven't tried. Because I think that fundamentally, there were a lot of
dynamics in the early experimentational sort of phases that were extremely unhealthy and extractive.
And those carried forward because a lot of the team were working on that as a foundation.
So first we need to get real about those inequities that exist, early adopters of ETH,
holding certain amounts of power that can, at this point,
don't have a mechanism to be fully shared
in the network, for instance.
So we just, and I'm not saying that there isn't a solution
to that problem.
What I'm saying is we need to be real about where we're at
and where we came from first.
And so I think there's a lot, first of all, there's a lot we haven't tried.
And I say that because so far I haven't seen a single place where we've collectively come together to meticulously document what people have actually tried so that we know what levers we might need to
pull just like you do in an LLM if there's any devs on the call that will understand what I'm
talking about um with weights like you need to be able to pull different levers and see what might work better. And then the other, the other thing
that you said is like, is it really fair to call Balaji's idea of the network state
techno feudalism because you, you can exit and that is, it is a huge part of what Bellagio says he believes is the most powerful tool for accountability of the state and the resources that ordinary people have
in order to fully understand what he's suggesting.
And I say that because here in the United States, well, we're having a lot of social turmoil.
And there are people who are saying, well, you don't like it, just leave.
Well, that's just effing ridiculous because it makes so many assumptions about a person's status, access to resources and and potentially even physical ability.
Leaving might not be possible.
And not only is that true from a physical perspective,
when we're talking about the United States,
but when you're talking about theoretical nation state,
a network state,
at least Balaji's version of it,
you definitely could get into some scenarios in Balaji's version
of network state where people can't actually leave the network. First of all, it makes an
assumption that there's somewhere for them to go, that there's somewhere for them to go,
and that the currency used is the same in that new place, or that the value of that currency will be held to the same level at that
new place, that that new place has everything they need, even if it is somewhere else to go.
And on top of that, you're making an assumption that mobility is something that they're capable
of from a throughput level. Going back to what Regis was saying earlier
about getting real about batteries
and with ourselves,
but also being real about other people's batteries
and what you're expecting of them
with the resources that they have.
Not just dollar currency resources
or crypto resources or whatever that might be, but physical,
mental, emotional resources. You can't separate a human into only the parts that are like,
do you have enough money to do the thing? But like Balaji is so far away from,
you know, what nor how normal people exist in the world from a resource perspective that I'm not convinced it's even possible for him to imagine at this point.
And that's not me making a critique of him as a human.
That's just me saying, saying again we need to be real
yeah and actually i talk about these people in the paragraph article called the mr rogers paradox
you know where i actually um talk about the the exact uh
the exact problem with people like peter teal and others who are in that kind of
situation right so assuming that a person i mean look the most powerful person in the room is the
person who has the ability to say no and they're not wrong that's also just incredibly machiavellian
that's an attitude to take you know so um, so people who sit at the top of capitalism
and have all this agency and autonomy because, you know, they have all these resources,
of course, for them, the main thing is the ability to say no, because they already have
everything that they need, right? So, but the problem is, it's been the experiment of the liberalist,
you know, movement over the last little while, this last 70 years or so, has really been to
gradually engage in removing liberalism, and to remove agency and autonomy and remove, you know, all of these constructs. I never forget
the fact that I can go down and get a, I can go down to Cold Stone Creamy and get this really nice
dairy-free thing. And I paid nine and a half dollars for this huge, you know, peanut butter,
you know, chocolate silk, non-dairy thing was really really tasty maybe the best ice cream
thing i ever had in my whole life i paid nine dollars for it but when i think about it it's
like okay so in the 50s my rent was ten dollars a month and i could pay off an $8,000 house in a couple, three years.
Right.
So it's just crazy to me to think about that.
And that's so if you just take everything away from people and you have this income inequality solves a lot of problems for elites.
And but in solving those problems, they're going to end up with this kind of blind spot, like we do about power and finance, that they have an equal blind spot to the fact that other people don't have as much agency and autonomy as they do, because everything else is based on money, you remove the, you know, the access to money and the access to power simultaneously, you know, voting doesn't matter. I mean, frankly.
doesn't change with a ballot poll, you know?
So, I mean, there's an awful lot here.
And that's why I was saying before
about changing your relationship with power and finance.
But if you look at the Mr. Rogers paradox thing,
there's a couple of interesting parts in there
that I think need to be talked about.
And, you know, silence or subversive so the ability to say no
or be caught in awe and wonder that's a really big deal why do you think mr rogers was so well
liked you know um it's because he actually made really conscious choices about you know and said
no to a lot of things that he could have said no to right or he could have said yes to and maybe you know had certain.
David Sloan, benefits as a result of that, and so I actually talked about the one right plan, but right now, you know the way we construct the genius thing is it looks like a Peter Thiel or Elon Musk or whatever I can't tell you the number of books that i've read that.
I can't tell you the number of books that I've read that, you know, post.
I would literally just love to read a business book that was written in the last 20 years that didn't talk about Elon Musk or some super genius.
So, yeah, so Musk and Trump and Curtis Yarvin, who is, you know, by the way, one of the sort of pseudo philosopher, he's the Ayn Rand of the modern techno feudalist.
So yeah, he's got a whole political project based on that.
So it's all software and shareholder value, right?
Whereas Ayn Rand was, you know, know just horrific horrific narcissist and abusive person
but but our whole culture is built for narcissistic abuse and built for narcissistic abusers and so
is it any wonder that our financial system is set up to benefit people like that and is
narcissistically abusive and so the book I'm writing on decolonization uh is actually in
and i saw youtube videos for up to that go through this point by point but um yeah i mean
you got to decolonize yourself and the way you decolonize yourself is to you know get educated
and take responsibility the the subtitle of the decolonization book is well number one the title
of the book is going to be i am the problem and the subtitle is a decolonization book is, well, number one, the title of the book is going to be, I am the problem. And the subtitle is a power, responsibility and freedom in a post-truth,
post-race, post something else world. So the whole idea is, is to how do you actually conduct
yourself in this current place, right? How do you operate when everything else around you seems,
you know, and so saying, instead of looking at everything else and saying that that's the problem,
you have to look at yourself and say, I am the problem. Now, how am I going to solve,
you know, these things that I've inherited, frankly, from other people, you know? If you
look at your life and look at the number of things that
exist inside of you just so many of them are inherited things you picked up and you thought
were yours and but you never really had any agency or autonomy even to choose if your attitude was
that or not and the person that you are now actually is is usually as a result of the things
that you have uh included in and and, you know. So I'm encouraging
you guys just to do that more deeply, because everybody who's in this group right now has made
those kinds of choices, and I'm here to commend you on making those choices, and I'm here to say
that, you know, frankly, I'm proud of the fact that you've made all those choices, and that you're
thinking about things in this way, and that you're considering the world in a different way.
But it all really starts with you.
And just alignment to a particular ideology like regenerative things or green pill or a particular organization, it doesn't really achieve the thing that you wanted when you joined those ideologies of the groups. In fact, connecting your identity to your ideology is maybe the worst thing you can do. writing the article, I ran into an old George Carlin thing talking about, you know, religion
where they melded their ideology and their identities together. And then he started having
a problem, right? And I was like, well, that's amazing. And so I included it as part of the
article too, right? So anyway, I hope that that made sense. Did we have somebody else with a
hand up or anybody else who wants to talk or question?
Yes, I have a hand up.
My hand is up.
That were many more threads up in the air.
We will go to everyone on stage in the order that they came up.
And if you would like to say something in a
more timely fashion please raise your hand as of now i don't see any hands so you would need to
tag me or something i don't know if it's a bug or a feature whatever we are starting with giving
the mic to graham who has been on stage the longest without speaking if you're there well thank you very
much for inviting me for a start and um hello to everyone else uh i guess my definition is
the most powerful person in the room are ones who just sits in the corner and listens to everyone
else um but no i mean look you've probably got more letters after your names than I've got in my name but
I always up until about 10 minutes ago I thought how am I going to add value to this
but then I realized I've been in I've been in sales for 30 years and the one good thing about
sales people is they have lots of training and they've had a lot of training about people
so although I can't speak on some of the other stuff, and the one thing I've noticed
in my 30 years is that knowing people hasn't really changed. People are people there. But
technically, it's advanced in quite a big way. So my input, just to answer on the, funny enough,
the leader-manager, my definition is leader does the right thing and the manager
does things right. And, you know, the leader. Very good. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to adopt that,
by the way. Well, the manager, the actual definition is to achieve measurable results
through others to motivate others to work to the best of their ability a leader is basically to
achieve results through themselves and to motivate themselves to work to the best of them and other
people follow and but yeah do leader does the right things and manager does things right um
but when you a lot of my training is you know when you understand like maslow's hierarchy of needs
i'm not very good with lots of names so i couldn't tell you all these books that everyone wrote but
the hierarchy of needs is is basically hasn't changed in the human history yeah i think when
you understand back uh to this i i i've been taught there's four types of people there's pragmatist which is likes to be in
control there's an extrovert which is a attention seating to get noticed there's a amiable who likes
to be liked and an analyst who needs to make the right decision so when you were talking about
you know America you got Trump who's extrovert The people who are in charge of America, should we say, are the pragmatists.
They like to be in control, but they don't like attention. The speaker, the lady, the really nice lady, she's an amiable.
And you would say the director of the FBI is an analyst.
So when you mentioned about the army, that's why they put those different people in the positions.
When you mentioned about the army, that's why they put those different people in the positions.
They've got, you know, some people will be data orientated, analytical.
If you put two analysts in a room, you'll never get anything done because they literally will analyze each other.
If you put two extroverts in a room, you'll get a decision in two seconds and it'll probably be the wrong one.
So it's very important. What's also important funny enough good point if you're
an there's opposite sides so if you're an extrovert like trump i guarantee he will probably have a
row with the director of fbi if he's an analyst because they're opposite the only way that trump's
going to get anything done out of the fbi is to move into an amiable which which is, you know, a likeable side, or a pragmatist, which is a
control, dislike, small talk, decisive, unfeeling, all these things. So the way I see it is that
people have always been people, and they've always been certain types. And that's why you'll get
someone who's very manipulative, who wants to take on the power. why you'll get someone who's very manipulative who wants to take on the power and you'll get the lady in the corner who just wants to live in a little house
and be by herself and tend a garden and not interested and I think technology is what has
advanced over the tens of thousands of years but if you look back into history in any one generation, you will find the
same things time and time and time again. You'll find the manipulation, you'll find the control,
you'll find lots of people who like to be liked, and you'll find lots of analysts, you know,
data-orientated, hesitant, analytical, thorough, accurate, logical. And I wonder, you know,
once you know all this and you wonder and you look at things and you think to yourself,
after all these centuries, we are still humankind is still acting in exactly the same ways.
The only thing that I see different now, and I had a conversation with someone the other day about a certain social
media platform and they were saying, well, have you seen the film? He's made that platform himself.
He's brought it up from nothing when he left school. And I said, no, that platform manipulates
humankind to change the dynamics of what is the human brain. So they must have millions and millions and millions of funding
from the people who want to change these things. And that's manipulation. And when I look at the
platform, just for instance, for Ron, I always question why do people get rewarded for replying to other people or for manipulating the algorithm?
Why don't people get rewarded for their content?
For liking, not just you get rewarded for liking, reposting other people's posts, but why don't you get rewarded for creating a post?
And I've always found that fascinating and the more
I think you look into people you realize that it's done for the good of the person who's doing it and
the platform but I wanted to just I only had a couple of other things and then I'll be quiet
I think when you look at web3 web3 was created uh with greed in mind with with you're all going to become millionaires
so most of the people that enter web 3 are thinking they're going to make a lot of money
i think the groups that you have within web 3 like the old cavemen in caves so every project
has it is basically the clan and within that clan clan, you have the leader, you have the followers, you have the workers.
And it just comes back to the same basic principles again.
You know, the council culture that we've lived through in the last five years is basically people not wanting to be chucked out of their group of the cave.
Because back in the day, if you got chucked out of the cave, you had no food, you got choked out the cave you had no food
you couldn't have sex you couldn't reproduce your bloodline and cease and you basically die
nowadays the cancel culture you get a little bit of feedback from the people who are cancelled
and then they fade away into society and I think it troubles me a little bit but I try not to watch
the news that was my first sales course.
Don't ever watch the news.
Because you'll open a paper and it will say there's a cat stuck up a tree,
but it's been rescued.
And you're like, fantastic.
The next day you open a paper, oh, that cat that got rescued is now dead.
So I think if you read and look at the news, you worry about the world.
Reality, when you understand the four basically people, you realise that 99% of all the problems in the world don't actually exist.
This whole thing about racism, which has been going on for decades.
If you walked down the road and spoke
to someone who's not of your skin color I bet you'd have a great conversation 99.9% of the time
so why does it manipulate that when you walk down the road that particular person who's a different
skin color to you is going to beat you up knife you and steal all your money it's just not accurate
I hear a lot about London I go into London quite a lot,
see nothing. My mum and dad go into London a lot, see nothing. So I try and look at the reality of
what it is. I also try and bring things down to the real common denominator. I try to filter out
as much noise as possible. I'm probably not as an expert in this or as, you know, I'm currently
going to read that, The Eternal Divergence, and I'll probably look at the rest of them that
Degadas has, I hope I said that right, by the way, has listed. And I think the final thing I'll say
is something that was told to me a long time ago, which I think is quite, is three lines.
It's the reasonable man adapts himself to the world.
The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
And so when I speak to projects and I speak to people, I try and get
back to this human element. I see a lot of spaces from projects that are releasing the brand new
platform, the brand new technology. I don't see many spaces announcing a brand new community um so i think if we can filter out a lot the noise and structure our our own we can as the
lady said earlier you can only do what you can do and and hopefully lots of people like you will do
the same but i think if we can structure projects and we can structure web 3 from the human perspective and understand
don't just put a project full of analysts get some people who like to be liked get a couple
of attention seeking people because otherwise you're not going to get noticed put someone who's
a pregnantist in charge and then get some analysts that can really look at the factors of it and I think that's probably what I missed
because since I've been in web3 I see a lot of extroverts a lot I also see a lot of amiable
people I don't necessarily see too many analysts and too many pregnancies so I think that's me
done but I hope I've sort of added value and not taken it away.
But that's my perspective on things.
And I do like that picture on the eternal divergence, technical to the left, human infrastructure to the right.
And it probably answers why we keep failing on technology, because we're just not setting up our human in accordance with it.
The only thing that I would finally say is the future, to be fair,
might solve it because you've now got a technical solution
probably going to be run by AI, which is a technical non-human.
So maybe they've got a greater chance of succeeding
because they're not introducing the human element.
But I like people, so I stick to the people.
I will say that this is a follow-up to the AI thing.
I hope you guys have a look at the Exocortex series,
even though it is long.
If you want to skip to the end, I think part seven is really about the four different layers.
And I think from my perspective, I'd love to kind of restrict AI to doing the sort of ingestion part and the archival part.
And then have it be, then in way will actually assist me and make in having
sense making and because i think what is really uh the thing that that we these three are missing
and so i think it could do this as long as we construct it properly of course um you know in Of course, in the same kind of way that people charge for API access, in many ways, it's going to be pretty soon that people are going to, oh, so you'd like to be able to make sense of things.
Well, that's just going to be an extra charge.
So that's my view on it.
Thank you for sharing, Graham.
You did add value.
I just want to say that for sure.
So much in there.
And we have many hands.
Okay, let's go to MK first, then Angela, because those are the two hands and then we'll get on the order that i said before which is afro nancy and then nate
hi guys good morning so so amazing to see so many friends um yeah i'm i'm in china
so many friends. Yeah, I'm in China for many years and I was born in communist Poland.
And so, you know, my father was born during the Second World War. He's still alive.
Many things, you know, many things I want to address from the beginning of the listening. You know, and some people so horribly telling you to, if you don't like it, move out.
You know, I experienced this many times in China, actually.
You know, I live here over 20 years.
Misiu, poczekaj chwilkę.
And a few times I was told, back to your country you know so you know we have to deal with that
when when we live in another country then you know sort of we are always guests here and we have to
create some kind of environment for us to be able to grow, to be able to contribute, to be able to feel like home.
But about that, what Angela said, that sometimes we are not able to make those decisions because of different reasons. You know, I think it's as well that we didn't start early enough
to realize that maybe the situation, at least in my case,
you know, the situation where I was, it wasn't sort of,
it's not about satisfaction it's not about money because in my case you know i i was a manager for
it's not about satisfaction, it's not about money,
two real estate offices and i was you know i had a mobile phone a motorola and i had you know 76
koda 105 where you have to put 100 kilo of sand in the front because it was, you know, anyway.
So I just moved, you know.
I just, you know, I started traveling, you know, in high school, hitchhiking, you know,
with guitar, living on the street because I want to learn.
I want to meet people.
I want to experience culture.
So, yeah, I don't believe it's impossible.
I know that when we are older, it's more and more difficult.
Yeah, that's it. The second thing, you know, I think Afo said that we shouldn't look outside, we should look inside. You know, when we grow up, you know, it was a solidarity movement.
It was a lot of, you know, it's definitely different communism than in China.
I realized very early because we had a big brother in Moscow
and they had their own big brother and their big brother sort of was dealing
with their own culture, their own problems.
It wasn't, you know, delegated.
So, yeah, sure. I mean, definitely, you know, looking inside and realizing how much I can do, what I want to do.
It's very important. But, you know, everybody promised us paradise.
You know, when we fought against communism in 89, everybody said behind the Berlin Wall,
there is a, oh my God. And what was only there, it was supermarkets and, you know,
and a lot of greed, a lot of, you know, competition without support. wielka konkurcja bez podróży,
to było, że bardziej się wyprzyjnie.
Mój przyjaciel, który był punk w tym czasie,
był walczył policję za własne righty,
przed 1989.
W moim opinii, for for their own rights you know before 89 so so in my opinion you know i was a big believer in
european union i i was big believer in my culture you know western i i consider myself you know
even if i'm from poland but i'm i'm a caucasian i'm from the judeo-ch culture, like Americans, Australians, Canadians, you know, Europeans.
I consider myself part of that group.
And I believe, unfortunately, we didn't do that great, you know, because, I mean, I live in China and we don't know how that fast development will proceed.
But at least they don't bomb.
You know, they sign contracts.
They, you know, they play the game like many, but somehow there is not so much violence.
like many, but somehow there is not so much violence, you know,
and I don't want to talk about Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan,
because this is another story, you know, and this is very complicated.
But what I want to say to finish, and thank you for listening,
I love you so much, guys, because all of you, you are like,
I met all of you, a lot of you during Let's Grow Now. You know, when I got a green peel of hope, when I got a green peel of enthusiasm,
there are more people like me who are pushing.
Yeah, we are getting older, you know, we have families, we have responsibilities.
Yeah, we are getting older, you know, we have families, we have responsibilities.
And then when you grind one year, two years, and then there is no, yeah, to be honest, financial gain and not to spend on what you know, walking between web two, web three, IRL and trying to grind on spaces to, to, to progress, to grow.
It didn't work for me.
And I think it didn't work for many of you.
And in the end, you know, sitting in front of the computer many, many hours doesn't, you know, doesn't give the results IRL, you know.
Nobody will plow, nobody will, you know, take care of the soil, nobody will plant,
nobody will weed, nobody will harvest.
So I have to, you know, in that time when I met you in Let's Grow Dow, I opened a farm.
You know, I'm a farmer now.
I'm learning about regenerative agriculture.
But I never got money from Web3.
I had to create the resources IRL.
I definitely agree that I have to keep on learning.
I have to learn about opportunities, but it's too much.
You know, I'm 50 years old and I'm slow.
I'm trying.
I'm trying to stay until 3 o'clock because, you know, my community runs spaces.
But then I have to wake up with my son at 7.
And if I do that, it's just unsustainable and I collapse and I did collapse.
I collapse every day, you know, psychologically, mentally, physically, but I have no choice,
you know, and I apply to Gitcoin, to Giverth, you know, when only Jimmy donated.
I love reading articles by Nate.
It gave me a lot of hope.
But in the end, I think to land two things.
Some of us are managers, some of us are farmers, some of us are community managers, or some of us are technologically inclined. And I don't think I have to be all of them, because if you are one of them, then we should support each other and as well use each other's abilities and
knowledge to to grow so i don't i shouldn't be i shouldn't have to learn what you know
but we should somehow divide sorry divide that progress that we don't have to waste time for me
to learn but my ability my knowledge my experience can be used
you know to to progress you know and and and the last thing jack ma the founder of alibaba said
that when he was at the university uh the the the pager cost on the market 250 dollars and then in production cost eight dollars and he asked the western billionaires millionaires
he asked where is the money you know where is the money they built 46 000 kilometers in last 20 years years of high-speed railway so yeah guys it's and we have to become politicians if if if following
that thought we we live in democracy we elect our leaders but they change every four years first year
they change the old ones two years sort of they have time to grow and then the last year they
prepare for another election they don't have that problem in china you know so i'm not saying that that that you know this system is is it's
the best in the world but you know it's like we should learn from each other love you guys thank
you thank you sorry for ranting and it's amazing to be here thank you
It's amazing to be here. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing, Maciek. Always good to hear from you.
Really glad you made it and stayed this long.
Yeah, thank you. This is really good perspective indeed.
Angela, go ahead. And after that, Afro, Nansel,
and we'll see after that. I was going to, first of all, thank Graham for coming up and talking,
and Blackie, like, found a place where he could contribute to the conversation, which was
definitely appreciated. And then I wanted to just say to MK, yeah, you know, I think there are a lot of people who may have convinced themselves that they can't leave.
When you're talking about the current global, you know, state of things.
But there are definitely constraints and here in the U S there
are some constraints that are really unique to this place. Um, and I don't think that a lot of
people who come from other places understand that literally you can't leave the country unless you have money. You can't leave the country
if you don't have money.
And I'm not saying
because you have to buy a plane ticket.
I'm not even talking about the transportation.
I'm talking about the fact
that the United States charges its citizens
for their paperwork.
You can't get a passport to leave this country unless you have money. And so
it's really difficult to say, well, like, and this is where, you know, some people do have a choice.
It's just one that they choose not to make. And that is like, are you going to give up eating for a while in order to afford
a passport so you could leave? And that's even if you're, you know, like close to a border
or something and could actually physically leave. But, um, which in the United States is a little
complicated because of how large our country is and how rural a lot of our borders.
But aside from that, even, you know, you can't cross, you can't even cross into Canada or Mexico
without paperwork. So it's, it's, and that is, that's unique. I know I've talked to people in other countries who
have said, what do you mean? Like they charge for paperwork. And it's like, yes, I got, when I went,
got all the passports for my kids, like two years ago, it was like over $700.
I just want to let that sink in. Like, that's a pretty big number for a lot of people.
want to let that sink in. Like, that's a pretty big number for a lot of people. Um, I don't have
that trouble. Like I can leave if I want to. Um, we have constraints that have stopped us from
leaving, from choosing to leave, um, because it makes it more difficult. But, but, um, you know,
I also, um, really love this place and love where I live in this place.
And I happen to live in a really great community in the Pacific Northwest that is very progressive and just gorgeous from a physical perspective and is a great place to grow your own stuff and has plenty of rain that, you know, clean water and stuff like that
is not an issue, even if, you know, society broke down or whatever. And I really think that
we can turn things around still, because I think that people forget that they, that all these
people with the money, they think all the people with the money have power but they don't really if we just get together um because they can't actually force us to do anything if we all choose together to not
go in a particular direction but at the same time like it is it's we have a complicated we also have
a complicated relationship here with authority and and and the authority that, and, and really weaponry,
we've allowed that authority to accumulate. And the idea that the American public could fight the
American military is sort of like laughable because it's not, it's not even possible with,
even though we're like the best aren't like the the the most armed
nation in on the globe in terms of like people who have guns in their homes it it still pales
into comparison the war machine that is the u.s military so like there's a lot like that's very
complicated and specific to this region but i think you're absolutely right in that there are a lot of people who
just dilute themselves into thinking that they don't have choices.
No, sometimes there's just tough choices.
Like we just said earlier, sometimes you just have to come to a decision that says,
if I want this thing over here I'm gonna have to make sacrifices
and so you know you have to say to yourself how badly do you want it and what kind of
sacrifices am I willing to make um you know and I think a lot of people out of fear um stop from
stop themselves from making those decisions because they're, they're afraid
of what might be on the other side.
But you know, I didn't spend any time in a monastery like Regis.
I just had a near death experience.
That's what sort of like cemented so much of the learnings of my life.
But I think it was really sort of similar experience that was very
transformational right yeah um and i had learned so much up until that point you know like i i felt
like really i grew grew up in an environment that was you know in rich in education and um while it wasn't necessarily um you know rich in resources
from a financial standpoint we were very poor but at the same time like um I felt like I got
so much growing up in terms of education um and but I none of it had really like cemented until the near death experience, which was the point at which I suddenly felt like I could put into action all the things that felt really hard before that.
Yes, because I just suddenly realized like, like, it could happen at any moment.
And then you're like, okay, well, I just have choices to make, really.
It's just about making a choice every day.
What are the things that are most important to you?
And making those choices.
And sometimes they're difficult ones.
But that's...
Well, and it's really interesting when you look at like this history of
of like religious movements like religious movements have been founded on the the weirdest
pretexts so to i'll get i'll speak to your point in a second but i don't know if you ever heard of this uh movement called the rada salami movement and they're kind
of like um part of a broader movement but one of the gurus from that um he uh was very influential
and the reason his pretext for doing his own spiritual work was that he had tinnitus now as somebody with tinnitus i could i really
i remember this he had tinnitus and he thought that what this represented was the cosmic sound
and so he started meditating on his own tinnitus and he realized the nature of reality and this
transformative thing happened and then later on he was, yeah, I actually got my tinnitus kind of addressed.
And then tinnitus went away.
But he spent like a decade, you know, just using this particular pretext to investigate the nacre of his own inner life.
Because he, you know, projected this on Fargo's medical problem, right?
This is really, really interesting. He didn't realize it at the time so
what i take from that is that you know you could realize the nature of the universe by looking at
anything you can you can look into anything as long as you take it seriously enough to investigate
the pretext you use to prevent yourself from doing this or that and and so it sounds like to
me like the the uh you know death experience that you had was the impetus that you you was like okay
now i have to strip away all these reasons that i was afraid of things for now i'm actually just
going to choose you know you gave yourself that agency and autonomy and and you know it's my
it's my fundamental premise that um my own spiritual journey was was one where i was out
on my bike riding you know um so many hours a week i was saying i started having spiritual
experiences really super deep unitive spiritual experiences that you know
having studied it a lot now are really typically reserved for very advanced practitioners that was
my very first spiritual experience was like an incredibly advanced one and so uh i spent 10 years
asking people what what was happening because I didn't know what was happening.
And I could not find anybody to give me an answer to the question.
And then when somebody did answer, then it was like, I got bad answers.
I got bad people.
And OK, well, you need to do some Reiki or whatever.
And I'm like, oh, you know, whatever to that.
And so it was just like me eventually kind of coming to this.
OK, now i live in the
hindu monastery and then they gave me as explanations you know this existed for
thousands of years you know at least 5 000 years maybe maybe twice as long as that and all of it
was congruent and you know a pedagogy epistemology and ontologyology, and then had this lived, you know, earned experience thing.
And so, but that was a 20 year journey it took me.
10 years just to get anybody who could talk to me about it.
And another 10 years to find anybody
who could really speak to it in any kind of authoritative way.
So my motivation is to make that less of an issue
for people, right?
And my motivation is, you know,
it makes me mad that these are things people don't know.
It makes me mad that we're raised in a culture
that excludes us from our birthright,
which is to know ourselves, you know?
And so a lot of my motivation for doing all this stuff
and the reason why I pursue it so
ardently is, you know, because I can't abide that a person could find themselves out there
without really being able to connect with both who they are, but also what's going on.
What trick is happening to me?
How am I being tricked?
What is the thing I'm missing?
You know, there's such a,
one of my favorite series is this six part series
by Rebel Wisdom, Daniel Schmachtenberger does,
it's called the War on Sensemaking.
And he actually just kind of breaks down
how the information ecology has been broken down.
And so for for me the whole
thing is you know is about sort of free being a good uh uh a quality source of you know an
information ecology and so i love that you guys are all here because i in one way or the other um
here because I, in one way or the other, you know, rely on all of you who are here to,
you know, you know, reciprocally give me back this, you know, high quality information ecology.
So I appreciate everybody who's been here for the call and want to thank all of you.
And with that, Graham, is it short or not?
We have people who have never spoken on stage.
It's very, very short.
The reason I mentioned about the personality traits, especially in Web3, the gentleman who spoke earlier,
especially in Web3, the gentleman who spoke earlier,
he's probably potentially one of the probably best community members
that a project could have.
You can just tell.
Once you understand people, he doesn't want to be in charge,
so he's never going to take over.
He's not going to cause any trouble.
He just wants to work hard.
He wants to get noticed.
He would do a lot of the work for you as long as he got rewarded. He felt that it's worth doing. And I just wish and hope that some of the project leads and some of the groups that are's plenty of members that could be in your community that are like the gentleman,
I think that's where they are also going to benefit because they're going to find a home that respects them.
Holding spaces at three in the morning, they should be talking to him more and understanding the fact that he does get blowed out
and then maybe hold a space that is at the right, appropriate time for him.
And if they can listen to their customers and listen to their people and understand them as well as leading,
I feel that you're going to get a lot more positivity in this space and a lot of projects doing well.
The reason a lot of it fails is you tend to get someone who says, I know better.
These people are here because of me and I feel I need to do
everything and I just hope that people start to realize what people are because once you understand
that you can get your analysts you can get your pragmatists you can get your extroverts and you
can get your amiables and you'll really succeed and I just felt it was worth noting and I hope the gentleman takes some heart from that
because he's on his
journey, I feel like he's probably
a little bit, you know, with the
Web3 space and I just want to give
him some reassurance that he's
perfectly in the right place, he just needs to
find a home that would appreciate him
and listen to him and they are
there are quite a lot of them, it's just
a question of finding them.
Yeah, I think that's a steadying influence
in Greenfield for exactly that reason.
And by the way, I actually want to say, Graham,
I think we actually need more actual sales people
in this space, not just marketers,
but people who can actually get out there
and understand people and motivate them
to use what we're making.
So I really appreciate you being here.
Thank you, everyone, for still being here on The Space.
Thank you, Deepa, for coming up on stage.
We'll go to Nansel first and then to Deepa.
Yeah, thank you Leo and everyone on the space
for doing all
it's almost 2am here
so yeah I had to stay
because this conversation was
really really it's really important
and yeah I think
it unlocks like a lot of areas and just listening to everyone like kind of share perspective from, I mean, we had people from different places.
picture and and really understand from a place where you know where we all come from and the
kind of idea we have um with with the culture as well plays a really really big role when it comes
to like working with people i think one of the things that actually really stood out for me is
the fact that yeah someone said humans will be humans. And most times,
I mean, one's character will definitely be their character. But then when you are in a settings
where you have different characters, as it may be in different definition, you definitely need
to understand that right now, it's not just about you but also about everyone
and it even makes more sense when it has like a common goal that everyone is working towards
and most times I mean everybody might have like a we're talking strategy we're talking about
characters well everyone might have different views uh but then when it
comes to like a shared goal it goes far to like say you definitely need to like see from a view
where everyone is seen and try to like go and try like kind of work with everyone with the way they
understand things from different places because i'm talking from a perspective of someone who comes from like africa and how is like our bringing
and how are we uh kind of how we relate with people outside our culture or how we're perceived
outside you know you you grow up with so much like uh low self-esteem in a lot of sense because that's how the systems like kind of put you up.
And you are in this space where you need to like contribute without really trying to have in code strategy or how to like kind of, I mean, in most sense, they will say manipulate.
And in most sense, they will say manipulate.
But then I found that in most cases, working with people is just for you to have free mind
and try to approach things from a perspective of the goal that we all need to achieve is
bigger than whatever strategy or whatever plan or whatever culture or whatever we have
uh plan or whatever culture or whatever we have in mind uh because then that will now becomes like
in mind.
the shared language we all are are going to use just to make sure that we achieve that and really
this whole conversation kind of like gave me a whole perspective about some of the things i've
also learned over the years uh even growing up, and then just getting a different perspective
and talking in depth really opened new areas for me and also working in this space.
I think we have different motivations, but at the end of the day, if we have a common goal,
we definitely need to come together, find something that is a shared ground that will
allow everyone to be able to express themselves in a way that is a shared ground that will allow everyone to
be able to express yourself in a way that allows us to achieve that mission that we
have or that goal that we want to achieve.
So I want to really see everyone kind of put that into perspective and apply that in every
areas of like work and personal life as well.
But I just want to say that I'm really, truly blessed to just listen to all of you with so much context,
like an experience, just share all of these and someone from
this part of the world really,
really understanding and just getting
this perspective really means a lot.
Thank you guys.
Understanding. You're so right. You're so right about that.
Any more questions or things that have come up for anybody through the process?
Deepa has come up. Thank you, Deepa, for coming up.
Oh, yeah, thank you.
Oh, I see Kim here.
Kim and I communicate a lot.
We are ex-chit-chat, basically,
just literally ex-chit-chat.
But this is my first time on Green Pill anything,
to be honest.
So just curious,
how's Green Pill organizing such a great conversation?
Well, okay, so to be fair,
this is Durgitas.
This is a space about Durgitas.
And I've been,
thank you for saying that it's a great conversation.
I take that as a really high praise.
Deepa, by the way,
everyone also has hosted great and is still doing great interviews.
Impact DAOs, you should look it up.
It's a great podcast.
So that's high praise.
Well, yeah, it's the account in the top that's hosting,
that's Greenfield Network.
But yeah, I've been helping to put this together to specifically answer the question, how is this organized?
I mean, yeah, people being people like what you said years ago.
I mean, yeah, like a group chat with a multi-seq, right, is how you describe a DAO.
And I mean, I always say, like, show me, tell me about the tools when they are better than messaging people.
Yeah, so that's basically the answer.
But yeah.
No, my question was like, my question is.
I said in the very beginning, the reason why this is happening under Greenpoint Network banner
or hosted from the Greenpoint Network account is the overall context is
that Durgotus has been helping with his knowledge and his research and his practice and his
experience and his insights with these topics that we're talking about here in Greenpool
Network through the Greenpool Garden season the last few weeks and months.
And that is the reason why this space is happening.
And several of the people on stage and in the space have been in those courts and in those courses.
And we actually, this conversation is going really well in terms of topics, but we have yet to really dive deep in how those conversations went.
Yeah, no, I've been listening to these conversations and they're really great and
it talks about like a great deal about like coming together and like sharing and this and that but
like to be honest um i'm glad to know like i'm just curious like who's the leader of this
decentralized green pill network now it's a phenomenal question um we will ask the green
network account which'll not answer,
which is very symbolic.
So I'm going to give this question
over to the other co-host
who is a drug addict.
Yeah, thank you.
Well, I mean,
it's a group, right?
So, I mean...
No, it had a leader initially
because I would love to actually talk about that experience here. So, I mean... No, it had a leader initially,
because I would love to actually talk about that experience here. It had a leader initially who was pretty centralized.
So that's one of the reasons I never came on anything Greenfield Network,
because the leader was very centralized
and made very central decisions about how things should be done.
Yeah, I mean...
You're talking about Milwaukee.
Yeah, I mean...
No, I'm not talking about Milwaukee.
Okay.
I'm not talking about Milwaukee.
Oh, okay.
I'm talking about a leader that Milwaukee appointed.
Oh, got you.
So this is...
Thank you for bringing this up, Deepa.
So why don't we...
Yeah, I'm the wrong person to answer that question.
Yeah.
So then, does anybody feel like answering that question?
Let me start by asking that.
I'm just going to put out the question to everyone on stage.
Can I make an observation?
Please do. question to everyone on stage or also for can i make an observation please it seems to me that uh
uh green pillows that exist now is is moving away from that centralized idea
it's been my observation and is also my observation that figuring out how to do that is
really the work that the reason why i've been engaged with them at all is I think in many ways
the thing I'm mentoring them through is how to go about switching their whole approach from
you know kind of a group of people who were sort of following or walking around and then
the other person that was but that person's gone And so, so then I think the people who remained were now trying to figure out what to do.
And then I happened to know them and gradually deepen my relationship with them.
Yeah.
I mean, you know what?
I would love to contribute right here because I studied like Impact Thou.
So I've been in this Web3 space since 2021.
And I did like a deep, deep, deep dive into impact DAOs in 2022. Like they were still
very early on and I was very focused on studying impact DAOs, which are like DAOs that are focused
on doing good to people and planet. And so that was my whole objective to like really understand
these organizations and understand like the Web3 philosophy of coordination and collaboration and like working together so uh i've had like a
really bad experience with green pill uh per se not with awaki but the person that awaki elected
to run green pill like very centralized it was very form-based very centralized um and i was
part of the green pill telegram group and i once made a proposition that since Green Pill chapters are starting
everywhere, could ImpactDAO, like tag along these Green Pill chapters
and like talk about ImpactDAOs, you know, in different cities, right?
It doesn't make sense that I started like an ImpactDAO chapter in Vancouver
and there's a Green Pill chapter in Vancouver and there's like a
ReFiDAO chapter in Vancouver. Like's a green pill chapter in Vancouver and there's like a refi thou chapter in Vancouver like we're all web three right we should all just combine forces and
like represent as a united front so that's was my proposition like since i'm like kind of like
leading not leading but i was like kind of the face of impact house and i was like really passionate
about that topic and i really wanted to see like DAOs being formed in cities because city-based
DAOs can do so much, right? Like say you want to like build a community garden,
you can just like pool in money and you're a DAO around that community garden.
Right? So like city-based DAOs makes so much sense.
But I made this proposal in the Green Pill Telegram group and that centralized authority, literally
very snobbish and snooty, new to this entire impact space, didn't understand the context
and totally cut me out.
Totally.
After that, I never, ever wanted to be part of anything to do with green pill.
Because it wasn't green pill.
It was very centralized pill.
So I just have a question just tonally here.
Is it a thing to litigate this in a space like this?
Yeah, it is important because we are talking about collaboration and coordination and Web3. And this was like, I would love that girl to actually talk about the fact that why does she
behave like this? Like this was literally like her role was to seed a community.
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is it does rather seem like a very public way to get private matter handled.
It's not private. It's all public.
By the way, Green Pill Telegram group is public and you can literally go back to that conversation and see it.
And it's about theories of change, right?
Aren't we discussing that? that like I think it's very important that people who are like I studied impact DAOs and leaders
who are authoritative in a DAO setting when you're seeding a community just doesn't work
so I think we should talk about theories of change like what are the kind of qualities of
like that we need to see in people who are seeding communities maybe let's talk about that
I just wanted to put this as a context. The reason I'm saying is because I think this person is not with the
organization anymore and I don't think they're here.
So if you know that they are here, then, you know,
that's a different thing.
No, the person is very much in Web3.
The person is very much in Web3.
Thank you for bringing this up, Deepa.
I do think it's relevant, even though it is a fair point,
like what can we do about it here now? But I do think it is quite relevant to though it is a fair point, like what can we do about it here now?
But I do think it is quite relevant to bring it up.
And thank you for doing so.
Because indeed, as we look at as an organization, we spoke earlier, we spoke about like when we're asking like how should the world change and what should people try?
Like instead of saying and asking that we could and maybe should look at ourselves
and start with ourselves.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's the whole point.
What's the point of fake signaling?
And if we're looking at organizations
and talking in broad terms about abstract organizations,
and especially because this is currently hosted
by the Greenpoint Network account,
I do think it is in that same vein also relevant to look inside the organization, even if that means that it includes people that are currently not here.
Exactly. It excluded a lot of people, actually. Greenpool excluded a lot of people by having that kind of like attitude. of people i know and not just me so and and that
that perception forms forever right like i wasn't very uh like i wasn't very forthcoming to join the
spaces even though i saw it in my feet until civil monkey reached out to me so the perception stays
forever because it's like a brand association i i was just gonna say i actually don't mind that
you brought that up. I think
just addressing things directly is the way that we get past them. And the whole point of this
exercise that we were doing with Regis was really about planning for the future and figuring out
where to go from here. And some of what came from those talks is some of the stuff that we've
talked about, but not even all of it. And a lot of it is actually way more ground up
in the sense that we're starting with the individuals, have different chapters or working on different initiatives inside Greenpill
and saying, okay, like, what are your guys' goals? And then from there, we can see how they overlap,
where we can help each other, what kind of structure we're going to set up for handling that.
But those questions aren't fully answered yet. We're in process and we're
here sharing that process with everybody else who might want to come along on that journey.
Welcome. I recognize your name from the space and I appreciate Impact Outs. You're welcome in this
space. I'd love to hear what you have to contribute and i'm sorry
oh yeah yeah no i just feel like it is so hypocritical to have people who uh like
fake signal things and be in be still in web3 around like and like rise to power, right? Like literally rise to power. Like you can, Web3 is a place
where you flourish through community building
and through being grounded and down to earth
and leveling up with everybody.
So it just kind of like for me,
though, even though I'm not very actively participating
in Web3 anymore, like it is disturbing for me
to like see those people rise to power.
Can I please, can I hop in here if you don't mind? Yeah, please, please do it. Sorry, I was going to come to the hands. anymore like it is disturbing for me to like see those people rise to power can i please can i
hop in here if you don't mind yeah please please do sorry i was going to come to the hand sorry i
didn't yet please do yeah um the debate of whether the history of an organization you can never escape
your original history i don't that's that's up to the individual to decide, but the person you're
referring to, I've been involved in Green Pill for a little bit less than two years. When I first,
when I first joined, that person was already basically inactive. Um,
the people that are currently running the organization fought for a long time to gain access to the treasury, to the discord, to the handful of
resources that actually exist. Um, and I, I, I'm not even really sure where to go. Like how to kind
of speak about this, but I mean, the, the, the people that are currently running the organization have no
connection to the person that you're referring to um whether or not that stink is ever gonna
get off whatever it is what it is um but yeah i i i'm not i'm not really looking to
yeah i i i'm not i'm not really looking to to to talk down upon anybody within a public space but
that it's not about talking down it's about uh talking the truth and truth many times is
uncomfortable right like we are all in this space and there's so much of like virtue signaling right
like so much of what you're signaling that literally pissed me off and got me out of Web3. Like I literally quit because of this virtue signaling.
Because as somebody who, you know, like you paint an image of Web3 being like a place where like it's all about like community and goodness and fairness.
And then you come in and then you see all of this dark reality.
It's like, wow, this is like a very hypocritical
place but at the same time i've uh like all the people that i've been as they're associated with
like and all the impact us that i interviewed and all the people uh that were part of the impact
study like they were like close to 50 people that i interviewed and civil got to know me through
that and i've been been on so many tourist spaces
I think it's a really fun place but except
like few individuals who like
totally ruined the vibe
I agree
I want to show you
I'm back
and my internet
rugged me
I appreciate Deepa
bringing this up.
I think this is something that is relevant.
And when we are in this position, at least in my opinion,
it's very important for us to take the responsibility
and understand what this means.
So in my opinion, what this means for me now,
being truth to Deepudipa,
it means that we need to focus on the present,
like the same problems that, like, why Matt couldn't keep talking about,
like, what is the next step?
This is what we are doing here, I guess, because we have the accesses.
We have the things that were kind of controlled before as a group,
but we still have the same structure.
There is the same hierarchy.
There is a small group that has the power to change things, to define the schedules.
No, I'm happy to group.
I'm happy to group. I'm happy. Yeah, I'm happy to group
because you know what?
I've interviewed like so many DAOs
and micro decision making
and micro groups are great
because that phase you can move fast
and you don't have to wait
for like 40 people to weigh in
on decisions and stuff like that.
It was,
so I won't talk about the past,
but it was an individual,
not even a micro group.
So let's move on. I don't want to keep talking about the past, but it was an individual, not even a micro group. So let's move on.
I don't want to keep talking about the past because past is past.
And I've sincerely, I don't feel like associating with anything Green Pill because of that negative experience, even though things have changed.
But you know how like some connections are pretty strong.
So, but I'm happy to like participate in this conversation and like let's talk about what's next
the connections are are completely severed so we can leave it at that but um yeah I died
this is a new trap there there's almost no there's there is basically no connection
to what you're referring to that used to exist in the past.
Yeah, I'd love to get the details.
So maybe Sybil can share at some point, like what happened, like what happened really?
But anyways, so I will.
Yeah, what happened?
Let's do the details.
Okay, let's go to the hands first.
There are a few people who abide by rules
and who do acknowledge that there may be structure in time,
which is linear.
So, first hand, I'm fully going to mess this up,
but we're going to do the following order,
which is memes for trees, Graham Rossi.
Well, I will try to keep it short.
I do think, like, I came in on, you know, techno-feudalism and how to avoid it, and I
think that you guys clearly suffered it at some point.
I think that it is rampant in, you know, the real world, but also in the techno world.
in you know the real world but also in the techno world like there is tiered societies even when
there's you know the the promise of it not being uh you see that with all kinds of like manipulated
dow structuring or even like you said just limiting access to communication channels and
coordination efforts um and like i guess it is it is a good time for that complaint to be like,
I'm just kind of an outsider, honestly, but for me, it's a good time to review those complaints
from the people who were, you know, on the outside of the Lordships, you know what I mean? Like,
they weren't the kings and queens and lords and ladies they were you know maybe i want to be
involved in this and when they got in they were like well this doesn't actually look like what i
want to be involved in um and it's you know if it's an individual then you know you what kind
of behavior should leaders not you know this is what what do good leaders do what do bad leaders
do um getting the right people in the right positions. It sounds like you are in a time
of great transition. So these are all great questions to ask. If you don't review what
you've made mistakes with, it's hard to make improvements. But sometimes it is uncomfortable
to review those things. I would say that there's a lot of crypto communities that I honestly don't get
overly involved with because I feel it is
very, like, I don't
align with it as much as I
should, or as
a lot of people would like me to, and I don't
have, like you said, the battery to
put into that. I'm just like, I'm going to do my thing
and I'm going to keep rolling,
help out where I can.
But I would agree that lip service to coordination
and helping each other is rampant
and the actual follow-through is slim.
And that does weaken the industry
or this part of it, I think.
You have to speak truthfully.
There's a lot of projects, I'm like,
that sounds cool, but I'm not putting my money in it.
I hope it works, bro, but I'm broke folk
and I can't afford that risk.
But that doesn't mean that I don't think people can succeed.
I just am real with people.
I can only do so much.
I think
that there's a lot of people here that are like,
oh, we can change the world.
And like you guys said, focus on yourself.
The one thing is
what you can really change.
But then obviously you're going to want to
improve yourself and then do more around
you. But I do think that
something that could be done in the
space is bite-sized pieces a lot more than let's take on the world all at once you know i think
that being like we're going to change the world economy is a bold statement when you could be
like hey we're going to change this one little thing. And if you succeed, then you can build on that.
You know what I mean?
What you're saying is validated by my review
of all the strategy documents that I've been reviewing recently.
And almost everyone is like, okay, so we have these nine initiatives
and all of them are going to happen all simultaneously.
It's just not a great not a great idea you know i've sort of interrupted you a little bit there but i wanted
to develop no actually that brings up something i would love for you to look into if you're not
already and that is uh the function of a like automated market makers and closed-loop and semi-closed-loop economic systems
and how that you could use those to drive value
into non-traditional markets over time.
I'm the wrong guy to ask about that.
Okay.
Well, basically, the math is what everybody has said the whole time,
is the more people who work together, the more profitable it becomes.
There is a true network effect in mathematics, and we need to use that.
effectively handle the stuff outside of the game theoretic will actually make the game theory more
effective by being able to make the kinds of distinctions that you're making right now.
You know what I mean? If we have a broader perspective than just the game theory side of it,
then we'll be able to make better decisions about that. So a social architecture to allow us to have an understanding
of game theory in its place is one thing and and so we did actually move on really quickly
from Deepa's thing and I just wanted to extend to her my own personal like feeling like you know
of empathy about what she had to endure and And the problem is, you know, when I was dealing with
Gravity Dow and mediating a lot of conflicts, the thing that happened a lot was this. So
I would get to a conflict. And the only reason I was there really was just to
watch it fail, right? So they waited so long to address the inherent problems that existed that that everybody
who uh perhaps could have you know participated in the same kind of way that deepa probably could
have significantly participated in green pill that whoever was in charge at that time just
you know fumbled the whole thing and just made it so that now this person feels excluded instead of included and you know the the fact that people didn't even think to design any of this stuff as
being important to begin with is the fundamental problem that i changed the nature of even gravity
you know just even as we were we were kind of disintegrating was from v1 to v2 is because i was tired of um being a witness to
the end of one conflict after another that could not be resolved with exactly the kinds of emotions
deep is talking about where everybody had lived with it for so long they were so exclusionary
they treated so badly that um and no one even bothered to construct a system uh that would account for
the fact that i think what's really sad is that nobody even what's sad is that nobody even came
back to say hey yeah we did something wrong you know that itself is like like saying yeah we were
wrong and like we would love for you to participate, right? And you were obviously wrong.
That is the saddest part.
The person has risen to power and the person is like a respectable voice in Web3.
And so many people know like what the real vibe that she sends across.
But anyways, why are we still in Greenbelt?
What are we doing here?
Like what's the purpose?
Okay, well, then I'm going to choose who's speaking next because then I'm going to choose someone who was in the Greenbelt. What are we doing here? What's the purpose? Okay, well then I'm going to choose who's speaking next
because then I'm going to choose someone who was
in the Greenbelt Garden season. We will get to
all hands
but I'm sorry
MK and Jose
we are going to
skip your hands.
I'm sorry, we're going to get to you later and Graham
you as well. Angela, your hand was up
and you were in the Greenville Garden season.
So I'm going to give it over to you.
And then ideally also would love to hear from Koya and Matt.
And do you want to hear from more people?
Please feel free to come up and request to speak.
So Deepa, everybody that's here now, some of us don't even know that person.
I'm one of those people who don't know that person because I came after that and just met the group of people who were here when I came and liked them
and felt like we had a lot in common and could help each other get further with some of our
initiatives. So everybody has sort of their own projects that they're working on and all of them of
course have some sort of, um, regenerative, um, aspect to them.
And, uh, we, it looks like, you know, we're all interested in continuing down a path of
interested in continuing down a path of decentralizing power and we're still figuring it all out but
started with those individual projects and what we need for those projects so that we could bring
those needs and plans up for ourselves to the collective group as a way to sort of move forward in saying where do we focus from here?
How can we bring together the collective needs of the group and see how we can solve some of
those problems through Green Pill, figure out which ones we want to collectively tackle,
figure out which ones are going to be outside the scope of what we want to collectively tackle,
figure out how to organize the group. And there's a lot of unknowns.
But that's okay.
Yeah, you know, yeah.
So I was like, what is the objective?
Because this was my question from day one
when this whole green pill started.
I was like, what is the objective?
What are y'all organizing towards?
Like, what are y'all trying to achieve?
Like, Refi DaO kind of had an objective, which was
to like more like carbon economy, blockchain environment. So what is GreenPill's objective?
Well, everybody has different objectives, but all of them have some sort of regenerative aspect to
them. My personal objective is creating, you know, infrastructure outside of big tech
for people to use that is as easy as big tech is to use. Because when you have limited resources,
it means you have, you know, less options typically, or can't get access to the same things because of the cost.
So that's my goal.
I'm building an abstraction layer over the top of D-PIN so people can access compute and
other computer resources at a much cheaper price.
Being completely transparent in our pricing,
like we have a flat rate.
No extra charges for different weird stuff
or spreadsheets full of trying to figure out
how much your cloud costs are.
It's like straightforward, right?
So that's my goal.
And also I wanna create a GreenPill chapter here locally
in my community because I have already worked with a ecological society that owns the nature preserve around me. have into a treasury to help them grow their resources and taking care of the land that
they take care of here in yeah so so what i'm trying to understand is like now that you will
form like a local green pill chapter what what would be like to like help them fundraise through
crypto or like it or to like bring some like what would be like how would they benefit
from like the green pill chapter that's what i'm trying to yeah that's a really good question i
mean this is what i've been trying to figure out is um and a lot of it is just talking to some
other people who are also managing digital resources and treasuries to try to figure out
new strategies towards um getting yield from those treasuries in try to figure out new strategies towards getting yield from those treasuries in
order to actually continue sustaining whatever project that those are sitting in treasury for.
So the goal is to figure out how to do that. One way we can do that is by also, like, for those
of us who need what other people in the network have, of course, like keeping stuff inside a small group of people who are all pushing towards the same sort of goals, regenerative treasuries means that we can less of, you know, the pool of money escapes a group of people that, you know, at least from a certain moral perspective, have some goals with overlapping ideals. You know, I think everybody's here for a different purpose
too. So I should let some other people speak because like other people have other goals
for the group too, that I mean, I'm one individual and definitely not the leader, there really is no leader at this point.
That is like 100% a leader.
It's everybody's together figuring it out.
And where we go from here is not.
So it looks like people,
so it looks like it's just a convening group
of like people who are in Web3,
who are regen and who wants to like come and share
about the projects they're
working on and like it seems like more of a forum than like a group that has a single objective that
or like or like a goal towards which different chapters are like aiming to go for can i speak
to that for a second yeah yeah i would like to to speak about it too uh if possible yeah i just feel like i'm i'm
literally working with the green pill stewards and and folks and into different layers so i think in
some sense uh you know you're asking you know a very direct question and and it's the question
that we've been working on
and working through and all of these strategy things.
So the fact that it's not super simple and super easy
to answer your question at the moment is because that work is not yet done.
So but we are engaged in it.
And I think by design, the reason why you're asking you, no, not but no,
not by design. I don't know who said that, but oh, I know. I mean, by design, we don why you're asking. No, not by design.
I don't know who said that.
Oh, no, I mean, by design, we don't have an answer to that,
because we wanted to go through this process to figure it out.
Oh, sure.
Yeah, I mean, every individual person is going to have their own, you know, specific motivations.
And they're going to be, you know, so it's got to be like bottom up,
you know, pressure.
Yeah, just by design, this Green Pearl Network never had an answer to that question,
because I even asked that very question in the Telegram group when it was just formed.
What is the objective? And I think the focus at that time was just seeding as many chapters as
possible. But I'm like, what will these chapters do chapters do like what are the two or three things
we are asking each of these chapters like these were very basic relevant questions i had asked at
that point of time but the focus was entirely like let's grow the chapter let's have as many chapters
as possible but without like what these chapters will do like everybody needs a playbook you know
like a little bit, like, guidance.
Yeah.
So, it's good, like, the fact that after so many years, there's still... Because that was, like, that conversation must have taken place in 2023, I think.
Yeah.
Early 2023 or late 2022.
So, I'm not very sure.
So, it's been, like, those many years that have passed without like answering those very first
set of questions.
I want to chime in here just to say sorry for the network.
In the name of the network, I want to say sorry about this.
Really, this is not like an experience that I would have.
I would like to have
having an idea and then someone just yeah taking taking over and gates
keeping and doing this kind of stuff I don't have good experiences with this
and to be honest I can't handle too well so I appreciate that you're bringing this and what I can do, like, it's to
share kind of how was things when I got here, basically. I've met Cedric, the person you mentioned,
right? I met this group when I got it, when I started, and they were the ones who received me. And
like, there was a process to become a chapter, but I just took the initiative to start setting
up meetings and doing stuff like that. And suddenly, when I realized it, I was like,
participating in the calls and learning and connecting with people. So at that moment, we lost our leader,
the guy who was the main chapter, who were more active,
who was the face of the network,
because he was from the group that came together,
getting together in the chapters,
but he started to travel and represent the network.
So we lost this person.
So all the things he was kind of building, the bridges,
and I think this situation happened probably because of how much we
because of how much we underestimate the impact,
and the network effects, and a lot of stuff, and symbolism,
and how all these things, they connect to each other,
and how a small decision can change someone's perspective for life, for example.
So I think all of these things was the reason to, like, this group, this person,
specifically to get more distance from the network.
And then we started to kind of, yeah, let's find our path to the things that are kind of lost.
Like this bunch of resources, Discord,
and we have guides, but this never went through,
like we never spread that.
But about your question,
this is something I can also share.
I think I have answers
to your questions, like what these chapters
can do. At least
in the work I have been doing,
I can talk about
myself a little.
I'm an agroecologist who
did research
about
emerging technologies for small farmers.
So I was looking into the science,
how science was doing in the directions of smart farming
against small farming.
And I realized that there was a lot of development
on tracking and use of blockchain and IoT and a lot of things for farmers, for big lands.
But for smallholder farmers and family farmers who are at least people who produce 70% of our food, they don't have anything.
There is no solution for them.
And I was kind of curious about it.
So I dig into it and I found that some countries like India and China,
they are leading the studies on this area, like using blockchain, for example,
the studies on this area, like using blockchain, for example, to have monitor, blockchain and
IoT to monitor like a small water reservatory, like, I don't know how to say in English now.
Yeah, but the basic units we have for landscape, right?
Watershed.
Yeah.
So they were monitoring watershed and having a
real-time monitoring.
And this is so powerful because
it was built for the
small farmers, not
for the big ones.
So it is an incredible
use case
of the blockchain tech, for example,
to emancipate
one of the main resources of the territory., for example, to emancipate kind of one of the main resources of territory.
So another thing that there are a lot of potential for, especially, and I think this is the biggest potential for the chapters,
which is the coordination, right?
We tend to think that regeneration is something that we need to start doing it because we're not doing it.
But there's a lot of people doing it already, right?
And a lot of people that are working towards a different system.
We just don't know each other.
We don't work together.
We don't collaborate.
So in Brazil, for example, we can coordinate agroecology groups
that are organized from, I would say, like almost a century,
because there are very old groups connected with indigenous people.
And like these people, they don't have credit, the proper credit.
They don't have ways to govern the data they provide they don't have ways to govern like the
basically the supply chain so if there is an emergency there are some like barons like
there are small cities with barons and guys who basically take over everything and they have all the resources and
everyone doesn't have anything. So this is like, I don't know, I know it's not only Brazil, but
the thing is, if we can use chapters to coordinate resources and create resiliency into territory,
right? Increasing supply chain resilience, like having a community currency that
aggregates suppliers
in one side and
consumers in another.
And they can basically share the risk.
Right?
Because on one side, someone will
have...
Are you guys
hearing me? I think my internet
dropped.
Yeah, you're here.
Oh, okay.
So on one side, we have the supplier and the other, the consumer.
So we can make this match and they can share the risk.
Like there is a good match there.
And the chapter could be this layer where projects that are working towards this same
I would say objective right to do their own farm and cultivate the land properly like if they can
just aggregate together and each one of them sharing what they have. This is a lot of resilience that we can create.
This is our theory of change.
This is how our chapter is approaching.
We are using the digital tools to coordinate.
And this is the focus.
This is strategic workshop is helping us to realize that we already have enough
to realize that we already have enough funding, for example,
and understanding of things.
So right now we just need to get together and deal with our own shit, basically.
And it's pretty cool because people here have a lot of good intentions
and good will, so they want to learn.
What I'm most worried about right now is how I can create a pace for them to not be on
the digital too much, right?
Because like Marshall was saying, like they are doing a great work already.
They don't need blockchain right they will need if
you have a collapse but they don't need the blockchain right now like this is something
they they already do by themselves so we i just want to quickly share this idea because
i was like for instance i'm deeply into ai and like ai is such a new technology and similarly
web3 is a new technology for a lot of people but like my goal is to actually start like an AI for good chapter like AI for
social impact chapter in where I live which is in Vancouver but the chapter will have a goal from
the very beginning the goal is to like it's like a user group you know you'll come AI is a new
technology let's just get together and like do things with it and get to meet and greet you know
like socialization is such a big part in cities like uh and if you can
find like-minded people who have similar interests like oh you're interested in ai and you're interested
in social impact let's meet let's talk let's see what you're working on or what are the tools you're
using so and and slowly the group grows and then there's a common objective so i guess like uh
there has to be a common objective why people should in a like in uh different places should
meet and then uh and then the group can like just collectively decide what the focus should be like
it should be you know but like web3 itself is a very complicated technology at least ai is easy
to use like web3 is so complicated like how to like download a wallet or what to do or transaction
like there are so many technical questions that people have i'm just saying like this could be like a user group for using web3
for regenerative purposes in your different areas uh wherever this group exists
i mean that's that's how I imagine it in my mind.
And I don't think that other people would necessarily disagree with me.
We're all just approaching everything from a slightly different angle and seeing what
we can share.
What I can use from the experience that is having in Brazil, here in my local community to make it easier as you know things
get harder or things happen like we've had recently in the U.S. where you know like food
benefits were cut off for people and ensuring that like you know our local mutual aid group has distribution uh to the people who need it
and uh like I said working with an ecological group that is reforesting here and looking after
the large swath of land right next door to me but But man, I've learned so much from just the time with this group of people
and just talking about, just literally having these conversations
and hearing what they're doing in their era.
Yeah, I think AI has a crucial role.
If we can use AI to increase some primitives
that we already have as humans,
I think this is exactly the piece that is missing.
And I would love to know more about your work
too, Zipa. And I just want
to say that whatever
that happens in the past
with Seijo and all of that,
I think this is like already
something that we use to
kind of, we have
the resources that we did not have before,
so we revamp a lot of things.
Like we have these guides and we are creating new ones.
So the next one we want to create is a guide,
a strategic guide that is an artifact
that we want to build from this cohort we are having
that can help people to solve these questions
and find their answers.
Not solve, but navigate to these questions.
I think that's what you're talking about.
Yeah, since you asked, like, what am I doing currently?
Like, I founded a startup.
It's an AI for grants.
Basically, it helps people.
It's an agentic system that helps people find grants
and write winning proposals.
I say the word winning because we baked in the expertise into the system.
So every time you're writing a proposal, all you got to do is describe your idea briefly.
And the AI writes the complete application form depending upon what the funder's requirements are.
And it does like this kind of like an assessment and tells you like okay these sections of week you need to strengthen this and provides recommendations or like
suggestions of how to strengthen because uh in order to win any grant like alignment is the
number one thing if you're not aligned with what the funder wants to fund you won't get the money
that's number one and then second is like the team your your own ability to like execute on that idea. So these are the two most important things.
The team part, obviously, is grantor.
We can't help with that.
Like if your team is weak, it's weak.
But what we can ensure is that we can literally give you the most amazing grant proposal written by AI in like a few minutes.
And that's what my startup is focused at.
Like it has already helped lots of
small non-profits get grant like win money like I think it's the only AI that helps people
win money you know win grant funding like so that's what I do but also I'm very passionate
about like taking like social impact leaders and introducing them to the tools like there are so
many ai tools and how they can use it for for like doing good so i do lots of workshops for
non-profits and like for um for other networks like tech soup and all like tons of workshops
where i just share my screen and i just tell them my processes because as as somebody who's building
an ai startup and is bootstrapping
it I use AI for literally everything so I've made like commercials and I like I'm like an all-purpose
studio like I make music videos I make songs I make commercials I do all my copy like deep research
everything so I just share my own work processes and through that they learn.
And then if they have any specific queries about like,
how can we use this for that, then I tell them about it.
So I do tons and tons of workshops around like just enabling social
entrepreneurs and impact leaders in using technology, AI technology.
Amazing. Thanks for sharing. I think I have, I'm going to be honest, I have used before
your app. It's pretty cool. I remember when this was released, it's like, it is on the, yeah,
it's running CISOI. So nice to know you. And
yeah, I definitely want to understand
more. Like, one of the things
we want to have
is a way to kind of
allocate funds to this
cohort. Maybe this
can become like a new way for chapters
to interact with the network.
We are still defining that, but
we definitely can explore
some possibilities to collaborate.
Nice to meet you, Deepa.
I hope we can create a new impression
of the network.
Yeah, same here.
And feel free to DM me
if you're writing any grant.
There are so many grants,
not just within Web3.
If you have a nonprofit status
or a charity status,
then lots of other options open up for the great work that you're doing wherever you are.
So if there are any grants like within Web3 and outside Web3,
if you want to apply for, feel free to get in touch.
Like I literally work one-on-one with almost all my customers
who are ready to work with me one-on-one because I'm like one of those people who really wants people to succeed.
So if there's anything you're working on,
just feel free to shoot me a DM and then I'll be happy to help you guys.
I will. I will. We will. Definitely will.
It's good to have a branch expert in a group.
Definitely is.
Awesome.
This is great.
Collaboration and conversation happening.
We have a lot of people who want to speak,
so let's get to that.
Afo has not spoken at all in this space,
so let's get to Afo first,
and then we'll get to that.
Afo!
Yo, can you guys hear me?
Yes.
Yes, cool.
Yeah, yeah, it's had some calls in between, so this could hop on now.
There's a lot that's been said, so kind of trying to figure out what to focus on. I guess I could just give kind of how I always
viewed the green pill from like first being on the outside looking in, doing the podcast and with the
network launching and then maybe just a theme as a space at large. So my background is, so I come at things with
an engineering background and went to school for civil engineering and then
yes, taught myself how to code and then started working in the more traditional Web2 startup space
working in the more traditional web 2 startup space at like an AR company for a few years.
And so I've always kind of thought like blockchains, the main thing that they could really solve
is the lack of quality infrastructure tools and protocols, like the electrical grids and
water resource management to like the crucial things
that as humans we in our modern day we need to survive so chain link for me was like a strong
entry point with like a kind of the iot side of things of bringing on off-chain data and stuff of
that nature and then the thing was then somewhere adjacent.
And then I remember I was always into bank lists, kind of initially as an entry point
to learn how to use a wallet and all these things.
And definitely could always give them a lot of things for that initial kind of, yeah,
helping with that journey of doing your first transaction and stuff.
And yeah, I made mistakes.
I have lost ETH sitting in wallets and stuff of that nature,
but they definitely made it a lot easier.
And then from there, when the podcast launched on their channel,
to me, it felt like a kind of mix of for people that are tech-based
or come from
like maybe my background of okay i could connect with something that's more you know touching
grass born in tune with the environment and like community and stuff and i feel like for others
that were regenerative it was like here's a way like a new way to coordinate a new way to like
kind of tap into like new sources of capital and, and things
of that nature. So I feel like it's kind of a mixing of those two people to a degree.
And then a lot mixed in. And I think to say what the network is like is, and I've been
here, I've generally seen most of all the things you talked about, I've basically been
around, you might have been around, like around more early than maybe I got involved, like a few months,
because I didn't get too active until late 2023.
But yeah, I definitely experienced a lot of things.
And it was chaos, but there also was a beauty in the chaos that there wasn't a mandate.
So there was a freedom that a lot that, you know, a lot of people took
to like explore different things. And, um, I think from there, there's, there's a lot of things we
can now like ideally put into like, you know, like a, a structure, but at the end of the day,
like, I feel like the network is like a mycelial, like kind of root system rather than being like
a tree that it's a single tree that's growing and the chapters
being branches and the guilds being branches off of it um and more so that each chapter and each
node is its own tree that is sharing resources and knowledge with each other so like that's kind of
just like my view and then like generally what i've just been noticing because uh and of course
you know my main hat is with the dev Guild as the steward of the Dev Guild.
So that's kind of where I continue to be like a builder and put on like my kind of technical hat.
But I feel like the two main issues that I know the Dev Guild is helping to solve, I know like a lot of chapters are focused on.
Or I'll say more, yeah, I'll mainly just talk about the Dev Guild hat.
It's that impact reporting.
So there's a lack of quality impact reporting tools, both in the Web3 space and
Web2, like Web2 impact and compliance reporting tools are pretty, pretty bad
and not that transparent.
And I've done research on like the different things, mainly on the state
things mainly on the state side and within California because that's where I'm based
side and within California, cause that's where I'm based.
and I work with like some nonprofits based on the more cultural Europe background side
and then capital formation I think Angela might have mentioned some things earlier around DeFi
and like a low risk yield but kind of creating building that permissionless endowment model and protocols that people
could access to, you know, form capital around and get people to stake on, you
know, the impact and then, you know, give them the yield.
And that's generally a lot more of a low risk manner for people to grow the impact.
And then you could have other mechanisms such as like hyper search and other
tokenization things that people could tap into.
But yeah, I just want to kind of, you know, I'll stop there.
And if there's any thoughts and other people want to chime in.
But yeah, that's where my head's at.
In terms of impact reporting, I think the best way to, there was a time when I used to work at grassroots level, and I've raised money from tons of corporate foundations,
and we actually had those corporate people come and visit the site
to make sure that the money has been used.
And I'm not saying that's the good way to do impact assessment
because sometimes things are built and five years later,
that stuff is not there anymore.
Like, for instance, you can dig a well,
and you can say, hey, we used your money to dig this well,
and it'll be operational for like a year and then after a year is not operational.
So impact assessment is so tricky.
It is so tricky to just ensure that continuity of that thing is always there.
So it has to be like multiple checks over a period of time to really know if the impact has been made.
Yeah, and that's why I think blockchains are powerful
because they enable that trustless permission to the system.
And I think within the States, because that's the main context I could speak to.
So I could give a clear example, mainly for California and then for Nigeria,
for two projects that are involved.
So within the dev group, we have a project called Green Goods,
which is like a
simple PWA. You can log in with passkey. You don't need to know anything, Web3 or Ethereum,
and be able to join gardens and start uploading. And a garden, in a sense, is an abstraction for like a local hub of impact, where you could be doing Ethereum education, you could be doing
waste management work or agroforestry, et cetera.
And from that, what we want to do is basically enable on like a low friction
level for people to bring that impact on chain and then have different evaluators
to be able to evaluate that.
And then on the backside have the capital formation mechanisms so that as the impact
is verified and funders see that they could then fund in these
different even still low-risk manners with like things like yield and stuff of that nature so
um oh yeah so like what i say with california i'm a part of a non-profit called omu yerba
which is uh we do different fairs and events throughout the year as well as different
community-based activations that we kicked off a couple of years ago, like community garden events and stuff like that.
And I want to be able to apply for some of the grants they have in California using a
tool like Green Goods, because I could talk to not this, oh, this is blockchain crypto.
No, but I could talk to the effects of this is a transparent protocol, this, you know,
what enables.
And then what's really interesting on the California side, a technical standpoint is that
decentralized identifiers, which are like really a bridge from web to web three, which are a lot
of states, a lot of countries are adopting. Taiwan adopted it to do some voting systems.
California also has an open source decentralized identity system that people could build upon.
So like I want to this year ideally apply for a grant where we're saying we want to
build upon the California decentralized identity standard where people could log in with that
identity to their garden based on their zip codes and then participate in different community
based gardens and doing things of that nature.
So like I think in essence, like, and especially in California, there's a lot of waste and
capital in grant funding and compliance reporting.
And you'll be surprised how many people are still using spreadsheets and just using outdated tools.
It's really pretty sad in a lot of ways, honestly.
Because California pays a lot of taxes and there's a lot
of money that goes into the market.
California has tons of grants. It's
like one of the richest states in terms
of grants. And New York,
like New York as a city has tons of
grants. Like I've done like a whole
in-depth state-by-state
understanding of the grant system.
So California has
tons of grants and like the
grant market is dominated by people who have the resources to like write these grants the reason
why we started grant off was to democratize access to grant funding that it should not be based on
like if you can afford a grant consultant but it should be like you have a great project you have
a great idea you should be able to like write it down in like minutes and be to you know like
completely like the ai has all the context you don't have to worry about 100 things it's the
it's ai is like the grant writer the expert grant writer who also searches for grants not just like
writes grants but also searches grants and like keeps feeding you with like grants throughout
the year that you can write so people who are actually using our system are like winning like they've literally gone from zero to writing like 20
grants a year and to close the loop on things because i you know just because i think it's
important to give you a full context because it's not just about california to me the network effect
is like and it's what what greenfield is about like a one you know from a kind of my perspective
is that like so okay so
first i must mention my sister because she represents the more traditional world she's
an architect she's a part of traditional non-profits uh the california native species
society and they have they don't have an endowment they don't have any like the only thing the only
reason they're sustainable is because they have this nursery that they were given this land for and they're able to make money, which is very great.
But I want to be able to like go, you know, go to them with these protocols and tools, not saying, oh, it's crypto, crypto, but like kind of the fact that they now can build an endowment.
They could tap into some of these capital formation mechanisms, et cetera.
And the larger effect I really see is that like being based in california right there's the
access to capital for grant funding yes it's it's tough to a degree but really a lot of it's
relationship based and and um it's about you know knowing certain people and kind of through the
cultural side of things we have gotten some opportunities so i do know like we could be
like a co-sponsor and be like a service provider for a grant right for example for green goods and what's powerful there is that by being able to progress green goods which is fully
open source um but then we have a team of builders that are building it that are of course from
across the globe we then could of course that team could get compensated uh we could get different
people stewards to help to grow it we could have funds to grow globally but then that also enables
in other countries that
want you know want to use the protocol because it's blockchain on ethereum they can access the
same tool so as everything progresses to get those same benefits and then also i think because to me
in california there's a lot of usage yes to fix certain issues but there's also more a lot more
potential in areas where they don't even have any traditional endowment infrastructure
or any of these things, you know, existing. And already the, you know, coming wave of youth and
people that are growing up in these countries are Web3 savvy, Web3 native. I think, you know,
ideally they're using these tools in their communities to organize, coordinate, and do,
you know, different regenerative projects and different
you know uh engagement right with with each other so um yeah so like i guess you know i guess i
should mention the stuff we're doing in nigeria's solar hub development so what's really powerful
there is that i'm nigerian my parents came from nigeria in the 80s um and for them they've always
whenever people want to invest back in nigeria because
especially nigeria is known for having a lot of scams a lot of you know things issues with you
know money and stuff and economic system and follow you know volatility but so my parents
initially you know for years would give money just to moneygram these transfers that take a ton of
money and all these things it's already crypto this enables and blockchains enable this getting,
bypassing that corrupt system that takes so much money away.
Right.
And then the second thing is like, they also couldn't invest back in Nigeria
and these different places because of the lack of trust, the lack of, uh, you
know, permissionless, the ability to kind of audit these systems that money was going into but now they can invest in initiatives like the solar hubs that we're doing
in nigeria that are being transparent that are being tracked on chain and have a clear way to
like see that because my dad has now been going back to nigeria and for him he sees a lot of
progress so like and he actually just got some land there now and he's going to be going there
a lot more and a lot of the youth that in Nigeria, they're like, they
don't, you know, of course, which makes sense. They're growing up and still a lot of issues.
But if we're able to get the capital from people like my parents and their generations
into the right spaces, I feel like that could help Nigeria thrive as oil becomes less of a
common resource and the agricultural market starts to grow more and more.
So like, there's a lot more to say, but I'll pause it because I've been speaking for a
long time.
Thank you for that context.
And yeah, indeed, I think that the trust that you mentioned is like so connected to
like how people communicate, collaborate, organize, form as groups, both online.
And I mean, yeah, trust online, of course, is a whole other thing and dynamic than trust in person.
So what you just mentioned with building trust with basically donating into places where you don't live at the moment is, I think, at the end of the day, also part of this online coordination
and building of organizations.
So yeah, thank you for bringing that in
from the non-Web3 context as well.
I think that's, yeah, it's quite fitting.
We have a hand from Graham.
And then, yeah, please,
if anybody has any more thoughts or topics or questions
please put up your hand and otherwise we will be thinking about closing soon-ish. Graham go for it.
So I've got my hand up so apologies and it's I'm not sure I should mention it now because
it probably moved on a bit but I would objections are probably the most important thing that anyone
can ever receive. i've been told
for many many years if you can overcome those directions uh objections then progress can be
made a lot of the people i see projects wise and companies they struggle to overcome objections
everyone thinks objections are a bad thing they are the most important thing you can ever have um so i'm lucky in a respect that
i don't really know anybody so i'm sort of an outside without emotion but i would if i had
someone like adeep come on not only would i welcome those objections i'd ask her to to give
me as many as possible because if you can them, if you can answer those objections,
I promise you now,
it will propel Greenpeel or any other company forward
like you've never ever seen.
I would, see, if you answer with emotion
and you answer with animated,
the conversation goes on forever.
If you just say, thank you for that,
and actually either I'm going to write them
down or you send me a dm with that list of objections on i'm not only going to take them
away i'm going to get you the answers you you need and i would use it as the biggest opportunity i
promise you i heard from um i think it was angela if everyone's doing a different bit write down
what everyone's doing give it to deeper and say what everyone's doing, give it to Deepa and say, analyse it.
And I promise you, Deepa will end up writing your mission statement for you.
It will be three sentences and that would define your whole project going forwards.
And from what I hear from both sides, I think you're all absolutely brilliant.
But I think once you overcome those objections and they and there's no more left
deeper will join deep hill again and not only that she will contribute probably so much
so that's my input i i always try it's better from an outside point of view but
you know loads of people have have had problems they've had wrong management they've had
made mistakes.
The biggest people are sometimes founders who take over rub projects.
They have to live with all of that.
And if they don't overcome it, a lot of them just cease to exist.
They never get their momentum back.
So if I can just give one last thing, see people who come with objections as the biggest opportunity. The whole aerospace
industry is based on it. People who say I've made a mistake or I've noticed something that's wrong,
they get medals. So this can propel forwards like you've never, ever believed. All you've got to do
is just say, just tell me. Tell me, because that sort of feedback, I promise you, doesn't come every day. Most people stay quiet.
And if you can identify some of the areas in which you could possibly answer and improve on,
and someone mentioned earlier, you have some structure, share that structure and let her
analyse it, completely analyse it in a logical way
and structure it for you you will do so well but i'm sorry but that was probably from a little time
ago but i i just wanted to say it because i could just see from both sides got a little bit
frustrating but if you if you can do that you have so much potential together. Promise you. Anyway, I'm done, Sybil.
Sorry.
That's wonderful.
I appreciate that a lot and resonate with most, if not all of it.
Dugarders, what do you think?
What are your thoughts?
How is this going?
What's on your mind?
Yeah, I'm just happy everybody's here. I'm, I'm actually,
I'm hoping that Deepa is feeling seen and heard at this point, you know, after her experience.
I'm also just aware that I don't think I came off particularly empathetic at the beginning of that,
because I think I wasn't maybe prepared to rope that kind of a thing into my.
Yeah, it's yeah.
I do have a lot of expertise for what you experienced.
I just I think I didn't have the best first impression.
And sometimes that happens with your autistic.
I apologize for that.
That's OK. That's OK.
Yeah, it's difficult to be part of a group,
especially when your original interaction
with that group wasn't very pleasant.
And so it's important that you are able to, like,
talk it out and, like, move forward.
And these were, as I said, like,
my very initial set of questions in that telegram group
were also like, what is the objective?
Why are these net green pearl chapters forming?
What are you all trying to achieve?
Nobody had an answer.
The goal that time was to like seed, seed, seed, seed as many as possible.
I think that was the metric of success.
So we are back to the same question.
Like what are these chapters are going to do?
But I guess like, as I said, like i want to start one on ai for social
good um where i live and the idea is to be like a user group right like or like a group for
anybody who's interested in these two topics intersecting topics where do you live so
i live in vancouver how about you vancouver was or Vancouver, BC? No, Vancouver, BC. I didn't know there was a Vancouver, Washington.
Yeah, Vancouver, Washington is actually closer to me than Vancouver, BC, but I live in Washington. So.
Oh, nice. Yeah. So yeah, we should meet. Yeah, we should definitely meet. If you if I come to Seattle, I'll ping you in case you happen to be there.
Yeah. Seattle's like so close for me. So and I'm up there all the time because, of course, you know, I go to meetups and the AI house because I have been working on a lot of Allen AI models.
um allen ai models so okay which are like fully open models like including the data um amazing
with them before but we should definitely talk about ai stuff because yeah for sure definitely
um anyway i i i added you so you'll see a notification just ping me and we should talk more about chapters for AI for good. Because,
well, I started down this path as a research project with a friend who is a master's in
HCI. And we together were trying to figure out what the heck AI alignment was or could be, and came to a conclusion that effectively you can't
have alignment without individuality, because what's aligned for one human is not going to be
the same as something that's aligned for another human. So we wrote a paper about it, but also then
started building a platform around that idea.
And in that process, realized we needed an infrastructure layer if we were going to use Deepin because it was too hard and complicated and convoluted for the UX engineers to be
able to do the research studies that they needed to in order to train the UX, like domain
specific model in UX.
So, yeah, that's where I'm at in my journey right now.
We're beta testing the D-pin abstraction layer.
Awesome. Yeah, I think that happens a lot right like it's it's it's like
in prop like basically well what i mean by that is like yeah you you look into it and then you
figure out like well actually that needs new infrastructure and i think that's really interesting
i don't know it's it's interesting to see that happen again and again with three and then um
yeah and but props to you for for going forward it and going down the building route. I think that's always super fascinating from going from research to building. It's super interesting.
Well, I want to share how I did it with other people, because honestly, we pivoted at one point, realizing we needed to build the infrastructure layer, but we started in October on that part of it.
layer, but we started in October on that part of it. So quite literally, we built the entire
infrastructure layer since October. We're a small team of four, and I've only had another engineer
since the end of December. So the reality is the speed at which you can build pretty amazing things.
These days with AI is just off the charts.
Our goal was cheaper compute so that we could, you know,
do social good stuff and still maybe pay our bills and feed my children.
But, you know, it's happening and I can really see it coming
together. And honestly, we found several large lists of VCs who are investing in social goods
and are willing to invest in social goods. And, you know, we're considering doing a nonprofit arm in order to take some nonprofit grant money.
But we're right now applying for grants from the networks to help support.
Great idea. You should definitely register yourself because once you register yourself, you have no idea the amount of money that's there in the market.
The amount of money that's there in the market.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I looked I looked at some services and maybe you have an opinion about whether or not it's worth going with a managed service or actually going through the process of filing for 501c3 yourself.
I'd love to hear your opinion on it. And since normal nonprofit land is not my land normally.
I'm an engineer
yeah that's great by the way i have to uh leave but it was nice meeting everybody and uh yeah let's just dm each other and connect on dms thank you so much thanks civil thanks everybody
thank you for joining deeper always great. Always great to see you.
Impact.dow.xyz.
Wait, plug your other links.
What should people know?
It's grandapp.com is what Deepa talked about earlier.
And then, yeah, lots of other things.
Thanks, everyone, by the way.
This conversation was super great.
I got to go, too.
But I really appreciate everybody and, you know, how far everyone's come.
And just continuing to share what everybody's got going on so that we can all, like, move forward together.
Holding hands, skipping in the fields.
I don't know.
In the digital fields.
Something like that.
Taking many, many green pills um we so so deep i did ask really good questions like what is the mission what is the goal and i
know that that was like doger said part of the green pill garden season we are of course um
at a point where we have spent some time in this space, those are still interesting questions.
So I just want to pose the question for anybody who's in the space here
currently who was in the Greenville Garden season,
if you want to speak to how that was explored and discovered in the workshops.
well open questions never go well so let's start with afo afo do you want to speak to us
yes just because i was waiting i don't want to yeah um yeah yeah it's uh it's been a great experience.
And yeah, kind of now speaking on the present, I guess I was talking about the past, I guess a little bit on the present earlier.
I didn't know.
Yeah.
The biggest thing has been shared language.
And yeah, really, I think every chapter, the girlss and then at the network as we go through things
it's just becoming a lot more just coherent what we're doing um is we need to focus um
yeah having good strategy so yeah it's really shared language is like to me like the
the really biggest takeaway and i think it's really, share language is like, to me, like the really biggest takeaway.
And I think it's really had an effect in the sense of
throughout, you know, everybody that I work with,
you know, daily and weekly,
the scene and their focus shift, yeah.
Or get, not shift, get sharp.
The focus get really sharp on very specific things
with a lot of specific things with a,
with a, with a lot of trust, with a sense of trust that like, you know,
certain areas that maybe we're, you know,
we're involved in could be more autonomous and people could really drive
things forward. And it's still like intertwining, you know,
there's still a collaboration and, and the shared language enables that,
you know, to a large degree too. So yeah, I feel, you know, there's still a collaboration and the shared language enables that, you know, to a large degree too.
So, yeah, I feel, you know, really, really good.
I think, of course, there's always time pressure of, like, you know, trying to progress things to, you know, to match up with potential opportunities that are coming up with like grant um both traditional and web
three because you know to start the year a lot of grants start to like do have their windows around
this time so yeah i think uh we're we're moving steady and um i think it's now pretty clear like
who's at least the initial first wave of stewards who are going to complete the process, who have taken their time.
And because it is something that takes time.
It's not just something you could just fill out with 10 minutes.
You really have to, like, digest it and sit with it and talk to, you know, talk to people
and et cetera.
So, yeah, I think with this first wave, we will now then have a structure that initial
first wave could agree upon of governance and as we continue to centralize.
And then ideally, we set up the right incentive structures that then encourage more stewards
to complete the process.
Because at the end of the day, it's very understandable that for stewards that don't
have the bandwidth, there's not enough incentive here to, like, commit that time
where other places, whether they have a job or doing something else that's, you know, bringing
fun. So I think that's definitely, you know, nobody that didn't complete the first wave isn't
considered, like, oh, they didn't care, they didn't, you know, want to get the time. Some
people have, you know, calls literally at the same time as we have these calls. So I think it's more about us,
whoever could complete the first wave,
doing our best to then bring everybody else along
in the easiest way as possible.
Yeah, so that's basically my take.
Thank you for sharing.
And I think that does speak really to the process.
And that's, yeah, thank you for sharing.
I do want to ask, like, if you had to say an example of someone
who has no idea what Greenpool does, Greenpool Network,
what would you say to that question?
And how has that changed over the Greenpool Garden?
Yeah, I think, honestly, what Greenpool, if you came to Greenfield like a couple of years ago,
it was QF. It was basically we're kind of Gitcoin sister org and Greenfield is creating chapters to
do local funding rounds that kind of, you know, maybe not even saying QF, just like local funding
rounds. I feel like it was kind of the whole big focus. And I think that's something we should note because now a lot of us are really
trained in these mechanisms that will be continued to be used for the
distribution of funds at the same level.
So it's a very good skill to, you know, to help people operators for different
things and stuff of that nature.
So I think that was like the initial focus.
And then, so let's say 2023, even to start 2024 to a degree.
And then 2025, I think was, we put the question out there as to like,
what is the North Star for the network?
Where are we going?
I don't think we settled on something as a whole network, but everybody as a group and as individuals explored
these different spaces, both together collaboratively at times and at times as individuals,
which it's the uniqueness and that helps us to kind of create the diversity. And that's the
power of the network, right? You can have everybody go off and search these things and we have the right uh um systems to then have those that value flow between each other that's you know the the stronger
those systems are this that's basically the strong you know that's the strength of the network to a
degree so i'd say like now if somebody would ask me now i'd say the uh the green pool network uh the Greenpool Network is a hub, a space for like cultural and regenerative and Ethereum,
I guess you could say Web3, you know, based thinking and really a space to kind of, you know,
explore blockchains and Ethereums in the regenerative sense with, you know, the tools
and different primitives that enable better coordination, better decision making, better impact reporting, better compliance.
So, yeah, that's what I would say.
But I think at the end of the day, like, I know we'll, ideally we'll, because at the end of the day, we have to get to that constitution or to that place where we write it down.
And if you go to the website, it kind of say some things like we're coordination.
I think the two keywords I would always say
is coordination and regeneration.
That's kind of like the two pillars to a degree.
But yeah, that's what I'd say
for what Green Pillars right now.
It's a space to come explore this regenerative space.
Ethereum with a regenerative space uh ethereum with the with a regenerative lens
ethereum with a regenerative lens coordination and regeneration
quite did you also have a um yeah i think um if i i i agree with all things that Afo said.
I think he made a great overview.
Like all the things we are doing in the garden,
I think all of this is like creating a lot of impact.
So one of the things that I, at least in my perspective, that is changing, like, it's getting clear for me.
Like, there is a cultural aspect that we bring that is relational.
I think this is something that I think we can spread kind of in Brazil. We have a group that is similar to that, that does something similar.
It is like a place where people are exploring relations on the internet
that are regenerative, how to bring humanization,
how to humanize technology.
This is what I would say.
And they have a group, study group, a kind of community
that are kind of creating primitives for meetings,
for ways of speaking and organization structure
and things like that
and we are very
impacted by them
we are very influenced
and affected by what
happens there
since we have
people that participate
in this group and have
a culture to do things in a meeting.
They also come to our meeting.
So we have this shared culture where
we do the same facilitation practices.
We kind of try to simulate a fire ship circle.
When we are in a fire ship, we have, we have like an order of people talking.
We try to do something
similar. So we have a simple
way of like passing through each
other. So
yeah, there are some
things
that we do. And I think this is something
that Group 2 can do
for the Group 2 space as a whole.
You know, I think this is something like
it's like a virus like we learned it with we really and we brought to the network too and
like the network like everyone this is spreading like this relational virus where we are caring about humans and trying to humanize technology.
So I think this is kind of what we can do as a network.
We can ground things that are going the same direction.
For example, there is a change on DeFi yields there, like how people
are seeing, like there's not
that
big speculative gains.
We are talking now about real
yields, about things that
build like
real value
in the world.
So I think like we are
in a maturity
phase on the crypto culture and the group
network has an important role, which is to spread a culture that is grounded on a good set of values. So yeah, I think we are getting there. We just need to change the...
like and this is what where the workshop is helping, like the season is helping.
We just need to change kind of the perspective on what we need to deliver.
We were focusing on the same patterns
and trying to follow some patterns we see others doing,
like everyone else, I guess.
So we iterate, and we learn, and we try again.
And every time we have something new that we can modify.
And I think this is something we can take a look now
and use the tools the garden gave us
about how to solve problems, right?
And how to identify problems, all of this.
So I think it's becoming more tangible.
It's something that is becoming,
every time we come to the calls
and we do one more step together
and we recognize each other
and we practice the shared language,
it's becoming more tangible.
So I'm really, like Afo said, I'm really bullish on the Grunpio network.
Even with the market going down, I think there is a different purpose here
that we kind of, it's bigger than the price.
So yeah, this is what group you can spread i guess
wow thank you for sharing i feel like we could end it right there, but we won't.
So for anyone who's interested now listening to this before,
and Jogodas, obviously I do want to get to you,
but just to – well, let's get to you first, Jogodas.
Go for it.
Oh, yeah, I was going to say at the beginning of the strategy workshop, we had a practice giving your pitch in 30 seconds thing happening.
I feel like we have some more work to do on that based on what I just heard.
So we'll keep refining that strategy.
Like, what's the strategy of green pill
i i think uh yeah the the thing that deepa said about you know what what is it what do you guys
actually do you know like that needs to be a really quick uh punchy understandable thing thing. So, yeah, I've just got to keep working on that a little bit. And yeah, I just, I was,
just wanted to put that humorous anecdote in there a little bit. We still got some work to
do over here with respect to that. And, you know, everybody over here, they're my favorite people,
you know, I have to say of all the people in Web3, I think the folks in Greenville have got to be my favorite people.
Aside, you know, from the fact that I work at Auctions and everybody there is so great.
But yeah, so I just wanted to, you know, laugh about that a little bit, but also just thank everybody for being here and for listening to me for so much of this.
So I really appreciate you all.
Of course. Thank you, everyone, for making time and spending so much time. You could have chosen to be anywhere at this time and you chose to be here. And thank you for that. You chose to spend time with everyone in this space. So really appreciate that.
we will be closing down this space um yeah see you soon see you around thank you for joining
thank you for organizing and facilitating this uh leo thanks for hosting man thanks for organizing
thanks everyone for staying. This was fun.
Thank you for coming everyone.
This could not have been done alone with a single person.
This was actually a good conversation.
Can I ask a question?
Do we need a reason to make again? Or should we just plan the next one?
Wait, do we need a reason to do what?
To do it again. To do one more.
Oh, to do it again.
Well, that's going to stay up in the stars for now, but thank you for bringing it up.
But this container will close.
We are going to keep this space clean
and we're going to close this container right here, right now.
But thank you for the intention of that question.
I do appreciate that.
And yeah, let's see.
Like tag at Greenpoint.net if you want to see this again, make's see. Tag
at Greenpoint.net if you want to see this again.
Make it known if you want this to
happen again.
Yeah, that's basically
it. If anyone
else is interested in seeing this
again or listening to the recording.
I just want to show myself a little bit.
Or also,
right, that was actually the other intention.
Like just, yeah, indeed.
Like let's, before we, let's do that.
I thought we were close, but let's, okay.
So let's open it up again.
Let's do it.
Let's do the link stuff.
Let's do the CTA stuff.
Tag people that you want to speak to, speak with.
Probably people are okay with that.
If they spoke on stage in a recorded space,
just go to their profile.
If they don't have open DMs, just say at and then write something as a post, a question or whatnot.
Probably people are happy if you are interested in something they're also interested in.
And that is a way that you can communicate with people on X without DMing them because that's not always an option.
The default, actually, I'm just going to say this because that's not always an option the default actually i'm just going to
say this because it's important i think the default dm setting is that only people who pay for x can
dm you just for your information if you want anybody and everyone to be able to dm you you
need to change your settings of your direct messages on this app symbol um okay okay sorry Absolutely. Okay. Okay. Sorry. No, no, no. Very quick.
Can I just say there needs to be more spaces like this in Web3.
There are so many awful spaces that I bypass every week.
I've told you about the NFT social good being such a good space.
There's some other good spaces.
There's very few.
The more, the merrier.
So when the gentleman said, is there going to be another one one there needs to be lots more and not just green pill but green pill have a big part
to play and can i tell you now there needs to be more spaces like this in web3 is the only way of
getting web3 and crypto more um noticed and actually getting more respect. So I thank you for inviting me.
I'm sorry to everyone for blabbing on,
but it's been a brilliant space and you don't need to tag me and see if I
join another one.
Just let Sybil know he'll tag me and I'll be here because I think it's so
important and it's about the discussion.
It's not always about the questions,
not always about the answers,
about the actual discussion, which is why this is so important.
So the more the merrier, please.
Yeah, so for my part, just let me know if there's anything you've heard, you know, that we could talk about in your organization or, or I'm,
I'm basically like a walking psychopedia,
like the way they used to talk about me and gravity was that I was like a
human AI.
I've written so many words and produced so many things and I,
and I've gotten into vibe coding, you know, so yeah, I,
I've lived a really long and interesting life and I've learned a lot of
things. And so, yeah, I'm, I don't mean to brag of myself,
but I'm a resource for people, you know, in this respect.
So please do let me know if you think I could help you in some way.
And I'd love to engage.
So thank you.
Indeed.
Indeed.
I do think that is a really...
Thank you for real.
This is, I mean, just this space, space i think has been extremely valuable for many people
that joined that listened and and spoke and just your paragraph being available and and all your
recommendations and just way of thinking through things is already helpful and of course like with
green pill actually sitting down and going through multiple workshops as an organization to be more proactive, to set up better protocols, and overall be more resilient as an organization,
I think is a big offering.
So what is the specific best way to get in touch with you?
Yeah, you can DM me on Twitter here.
I'm pretty much Durgados or durga das g on just about everything
um so yeah i also have a uh i have a i have a link tree which is probably maybe the best way to
um find me so I will, if you
just want to talk to me, DM me, and I'll give
you my link to you. It's got all my
contact information
on there.
Very cool. Thank you for sharing.
And we will go to the hands.
Meems for Trees, go for it.
I just wanted to say thanks for sharing your ideas.
I'm going to have to get to bed soon.
If you guys have the bandwidth,
share your memes with me,
listen to some music. I appreciate it.
You guys stay
wonderful. Thank you.
I appreciate all the work you do as well.
Me too, James.
Thanks for joining too, man.
I appreciate you.
Yeah, I'm always happy to join in and help if I can. I know, like I said, I've never really been that close to the organization, but it does seem like you guys are making it your own, which i can always appreciate that you know um like you said it started as like a a thing
that was it had an intention to be like a second hand part helping get coin with its stuff uh but
i think that the intentions and the feelings and the community is real and you guys will just keep
building and doing the stuff you believe in um and that's all I want to encourage you to do is just keep building what you believe
in, guys.
Yeah, I think that's also one of the things with this whole topic of organizations of
humans in a tech-first world, the fundamental idea of an organization outliving any individual person, I think, is an interesting concept in the way that it both, I mean, it's difficult, first of all, right?
Like building an organization that can sustain and keep on doing its thing
without relying on any individual person.
It's really difficult to achieve,
especially in a long time horizon.
And so what that practically means
is that organizations also come and go.
And I would say one of the things that I've also learned
is just, yeah, names and brands and what they mean also change and shift over time and and as Doga said
at the end of the day you're responsible for your own actions I mean that that's not exactly what
what you said Doga does but basically like think about like your own agency and like
what what you do and how you act with things. And when you do that, you also realize, well, yeah,
it's not just on any organization
and many people who are involved in a given organization
also have their own being and everything
that comes along with it.
So I don't know.
I guess all that to say that I think finding our way
has at least as much to do with individual humans
as it does with brands and organizations and companies
and whatever structures.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I myself am open to having another one of these,
and we can do a deep dive and stuff.
I have maybe 1% of my work on PERC, and so I have an incredible amount of other stuff, groups, videos, and lots and lots of graphics and other stuff to share, too.
So perhaps we could do this maybe next time in a Zoom call, and then I could share some of those other things aside from just stuff that's in the paragraph.
Many, many ways of doing it.
Interesting.
Okay.
Well, follow DoggerDust.
Follow whoever you like.
Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that the person says that might say more about the person than about the concept i know it always does both but anyhow um um as graham said there's a space that i also closed every week that's
happening which is called the nfts for social good twitter space been happening um every week for the
most part for over four years happening every thursday 12 p.m. Eastern at NFTFSG.
Everybody's very welcome to join that.
It's always one hour or one or two hours max.
And we talk about all sorts of Web3 and impact things,
environmental and humanitarian efforts.
That is one that is happening on a weekly basis
and has been for over four years at that time.
Well, almost four years, not over four years, sorry.
But yeah, that is something that will definitely happen
and there will maybe be more of these.
So keep your eyes out and look at yourself.
i think you're part of the message um yeah you know and yeah i mean i've coached and mentored
I think you're part of the message.
you know quite quite a lot in my lifetime so if there's any anything i could do to help you know
individuals on the call organizations on the call just let me know um you know and by the way i've also written almost 5 000 core answers on
um spiritual topics so if you go over there with regis chapman you'll find some stuff so
i mean you know so yeah ask me anything i'm i'm happy to to uh to talk to you about it
I'm happy to talk to you about it.
Let's go.
Well, I'm so glad that this one is recorded.
And yeah, because it's also like,
yeah, this is recorded with all the profiles.
So anybody who's listening to this at any time,
click on the profiles.
Yeah, recorded spaces are actually nice.
Okay, with that, thank you everyone for your time.
We'll see you next time.
And for joining.
Thank you, Dogados.
Thank you. And next time, let's see you soon. Thank you.
