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Paloma LightNode Sale with ApeWorx 🕊️🦍
Recorded: Aug. 2, 2024 Duration: 0:27:39Space Recording
Short Summary
The transcript is a discussion from a Twitter Spaces event featuring ApeWorks and Paloma. The conversation highlights the upcoming launch of Paloma's light node sale and ApeWorks' Silverback product, which offers hosted cluster products for deploying bots. The discussion touches on the importance of off-chain computation and execution in the DeFi space, with Silverback providing tools for monitoring and executing transactions based on blockchain events. The conversation also mentions the challenges of managing yield opportunities in DeFi and the potential for Silverback to streamline these processes. Additionally, the discussion notes the current market decline due to unemployment numbers in America, but emphasizes the continued growth and innovation within the ApeWorks and Paloma communities.
Full Transcription
And your feet are good.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Now move.
Mm-hmm.
Everybody that's on the dance,
I want you to put your hands together.
Just move your hips from side to side.
And that's it.
You got it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you keep me.
Oh, my God.
I think you girls, I don't know what I'm saying.
What is.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, back in the,
I think you know.
Mm-hmm.
We've been a time searching for love.
And never know where it's coming from.
And as soon as we get it, somehow,
we seem to think that I work it done.
But the same thing it took to get that love
all the things that you'll have to do to keep it.
You gotta stay on your day, oh, baby.
You gotta give a little take a lot.
Give it all you got.
Oh, keep your fire.
you got a fire burning and get the fire burning
you got a lot of you got to get you got you got to get a fire burning
You know what?
I'm going to be able to be.
And so.
I just want to say, everybody, hello.
Welcome to our Friday, Twitter Spaces.
This is the Friday that we announced unemployment numbers in America.
So the markets are crashing.
Everything is going downhill.
People are pulling their hair out.
but APEWorks is still powering us and keeping things alive so we're very lucky to have them with us today
we wanted to do a very special ApeWorks Twitter spaces because Paloma is featuring a light node sale
coming up and if you don't know Paloma or Paloma chain.com we're a Cosmospace SDK chain with
cross chain relay execution on target chains and all of our hotness is based built on
apworks in viper and so we were just like wait a minute if we're doing a light node sale we got to
talk about you know ape works we've got to talk to the team and then we got to bring something
and offer something cool to the ape works community to make it interesting so uh welcome team from
ape works who's with me here i see signor
How's it going, sir?
It's gone great and I unironically feel bullish, so it's a great way to start a Friday.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I always say when things are going down, that means you got to get, got your point your surfboards back to shore because the wave's coming. A wave is coming. And thanks for joining us here. We haven't had a chat in a bit. And we were super excited. I think now that Paloma, we're finally launching this note sale.
Everything we've done, it's so funny, we were like talking the other day, we're like, hey, we're still using Apworks.
And I'm like, whoa, dude. I get we came and were pinging you because I think we were trying to deploy some new things on Gnosis.
And some of the libraries supporting Gnosis on APEWorks weren't updated.
You know, we were sort of in a, we were like, whoa, dude, APEWorks is so important for us and so critical.
And I just wanted to, you know, check in and see, how are you guys doing?
What's new? What's happening?
And really just say congratulations.
It's such an important part for our survival and growth that I'm just want to hear what's the hotness with APEC these days.
And where are you guys focused? What's new? What's fresh?
Yeah, sure. The biggest stuff we've gotten through this year is Silverpack. So we're really excited to start shipping some of the hosted cluster product starting next week.
I got Colleen on the phone, that's going to be mostly her job selling that.
But we're really excited to have that and it's a continuation of what we announced last year,
the silver bag, like open source SDK.
So anyone that's using open source SDK, this hosted cluster product will be like a cloud-based thing.
You can just deploy your box to, get them running 24-7 without worrying you.
So I'm really excited for that.
Got it. So when we think of solar vac and you think of cluster products, these are all, this is all going to be hosted at within your infrastructure, correct? And we could just deploy and go. Is that how we think about it?
Yeah, that's correct. So clusters is just a collection of bots, different environments, stuff to get the bots working. And then all of,
all those bots are going to be listening to blockchain events responding, pushing out data,
and then the data is going to be collected into like, you know, long-scale,
dashboarding, metrics, collections, all that kind of good stuff.
I did see in the Aperch channel, and I follow your tweets.
You were talking about AI.
Is ApeWorks, you know, is part of this data narrative at all touching anything in the AI space?
And is that important to you guys as you guys continue to grow?
I think it's probably one of the largest set of users of Ape because, you know,
obviously a lot of AI stuff is very Python focused, much more so than...
kind of everything else that's going on within crypto.
So like we're, you know, the primary Python framework out there,
at least for eBM chains.
So yeah, like I see Silverbeck as more of the tool to allow you to like,
put, you know, AI-based products into operation that listen to, respond to on-chain events,
and specifically focusing on, like, you know, creating transaction, managing signing flows, all that kind of stuff.
That's, I think, something unique that silver back rings of the table versus some other solutions, which are mostly monitoring focused.
Got it, got it, got it.
And also, I mean, having a product type solution
is definitely better than, again, homegrown systems
that your team has to constantly maintain fix
and then upgrade and then get frustrated
that they can't maintain a fix and upgrade.
This is awesome.
So you said something about dashboards,
and I was curious how people are using the data
that they would get from silovac clusters.
Like, you know, are people using it mainly as business intelligence
or they're using it as, you know,
really like the force to drive their next phase of their products?
I mean, what are you guys hearing in terms of, you know,
folks, you know, sort of consuming, you know,
the presentation of the data that silverback outputs?
Um, yeah, actually, I think that's probably the biggest unknown that we're looking to get feedback on with this product.
What Silverback lets you do is you can do computations in Python,
and then you have like a specific task,
which is like a normal Python function,
takes in a trigger input, like a new contract log or a new block.
You can do some computations in there.
You can submit transactions.
You can do whatever you want, maybe make a database update,
whatever you need to do.
And then if you return something from there,
that's a metric.
It can be a computed value from Python.
It can be just something raw from the chain.
All that's going to be exported into long-term park-hit files.
And that'll kind of be whatever you want to do with that.
OK, here.
Let's talk about a use case specifically to drill down a bit.
And we'll see how it works.
So one of the things, and Taylor is listening.
So hey, Taylor.
One of the things we were talking about last night was we were looking at Defy Lama.
And Defi Lama has all these defy strategies that, you know, from time to time, you know, they change, right?
And the defy strategies are very much like, hey, you deposit collateral into a lending protocol,
and then you borrow, you know, some token, and then you farm that token for yield in the lending protocol in some pool, you know, in some lending pool or the other.
And one of the things we're saying with a question is,
how can we automatically monitor every single lending
loan contract to confirm because yields change, right?
One day the yields 200 and the next day the yields 20.
And it was really frustrating because we said, well, we don't have time to like, you know,
what we have to aggregate every contract and we have to build a backend that monitors each thing
and then determines the yield.
And then, I mean, for Paloma, of course, Paloma is creating automated execution bots.
So Paloma's bots would then, you know, one, take your, take your liquidity, deposit it,
Neil Farm, and then leave automatically.
And so we were frustrated and sort of threw up our hands in the end.
It's like, this is too much, it's too big.
And it's too difficult because we just don't have this space and time to cover every possible contract.
Right.
So my question is Silverback, you know, sort of a platform that we could have used to say, hey, listen, you know, you're going to have these particular contracts for these lending protocols they're going to track.
You want to track and digest, you know, how they perform, where the yield farm is happening.
And then we could use that information to feed back into our bots for users capital to say, hey,
You know what? Lending on, you know, a morpho is doing great and then you can farm, you know, cake on steak down, you know, from that automatically.
But the computation, the monitoring of the on-chain state and what's according there can be done by silverback.
We can have all that done in silverback.
so that I could power essentially the execution of the strategies from Paloma chain,
managing users liquidity on the target chains.
Is that the right way to think about it?
I'm just crazy as hell.
No, that's exactly right.
And really the idea is the short circuit those two sets of operations, like doing the monitoring,
doing the updates of like large data structures off chain because you don't want to do on-chain computations of large data structures.
Then like working through that data, doing analysis on it, either like some specific algorithms you can come up with, which is kind of more like the traditional.
algorithm trading type of mindset or doing like AI based off if you want to really get crazy.
Anyways, you come up with an answer based on that data,
then executing on that data is where we close the loop with soapback.
Got it. Got it, got it, got it.
And really, any, I mean, we could attach any way we can bring whatever we want to execute that transaction to Silverback.
It just means that it gets, it's sort of the closes the loop, like you said, is a distance where if we have...
you know, liquidity movements that pull, like, Pullama, you say, what does Paloma do?
Well, Paloma's, you know, right now our validators custody people's liquidity, right?
When you create a bot with Paloma, you're just saying, hey, you know, Paloma validators set of like 2530 validators,
please don't steal my money. And essentially when I get a signal, you know, you know that you need to
move my money into, uh, into one of these yield farm strategies and then move it out for me, please do that.
So what we're looking for is, hey, if we brought that, you know, sort of rule-based system to Silverback, it is quite possible.
We could then get execution or transaction execution commands that will go straight into, you know, that could go to Paloma and say, hey, you know, or we can, you know, essentially because it's off-chain, we, you know, all our competition.
Is it, are you using ERC-4626?
No, we're not using that.
We're still meat and potatoes,
the R.C.20s right now.
No, because they're not meant to be WALS.
Because bots are, you know,
so the difference between Paloma and VALS is that
the bot is self-contained liquidity for yourself.
So really, Paloma deploys, we use Viper,
and it works to deploy your bot on chain,
but your bot takes off-chain messages and directives.
And so,
you know, a bot that interacts with morpho
may be different than a bot that interacts with Avey.
But the strategies are all off-chain,
like the response and the execution.
So they're like segregated per user basically.
Exactly.
So that's the, yeah, yeah, that's what makes full of special
is that you can say, hey, my liquidity is segregated.
So I don't have to worry about, you know,
you know, non-silent liquidity risk.
And I can take, I can say, hey, from my liquidity,
liquidity, I'd like to be aggressive, I'd like to be D-Gen, or for my liquidity, I'd like to be
conservative, you know, I'd like to be safe.
Yeah, you can think of it as like there's an on-chain component, so a smart contract like
you guys have.
where you design in certain parts of the rules that kind of keeps the bots honest in case,
God forbid, something happens to your infrastructure or the code goes rogue, whatever.
So you build that on chain component kind of in the worst case scenario,
making sure that you're abiding by those rules and you're taking those inputs from users
and kind of modifying the operation of the bot, which you can listen to is so we're back and kind of input into that model.
And then you can have like, you know, like,
you know like deployment parameters for that bot of like you know this is designed to be a Dgen this is
designed not to be and then you can kind of manage that yourself right yeah so that that i think is uh
like a great example of how you can do something.
You can also do something more like a pool type of thing with the RC 4626,
where it's like a lot of people are depositing.
There's like, there's like this extension of 4626 where you can do sort of
like asynchronous withdrawals.
So you can request a withdrawal and then you can
Basically, that request generates a event.
That event triggers the silverback bot to go do its thing,
start the process of withdrawing those funds to make it available for the user and then trigger back for the user to do that.
That's awesome.
I think one of the things, I think one of the reasons why we've sort of not yet embraced 4-626 is because Paloma, our bots are still hosted as a U.S. company.
So legal and regulatory issues about pooling capital are sensitive to us.
But still, you know, the very fact that we can use this technology to distribute execution, well, first of all, organize, compute, data indestration, compute analysis, and then, you know, transmit execution.
is awesome because we were just struggling, you know,
last night at 2 a.m. in the morning being like,
how are we going to keep up? Because this is great what DeFi Lama has done.
But, you know, yields change every minute, every second,
pools change and just going to aggregate and keep, you know,
just trying to build yet another data infrastructure layer to manage that
or middleware just seemed to us to be so daunting. And then you're like,
Hey, Tar, what do you guys doing? Just do solar rack and stop playing. And I'm like, well,
So I apologize.
Yeah, the real time processing and execution capability
and emerge together is really what gets to that.
Yes, exactly. And so our view is that for the business, like we, you know, we have positioned that we're not trying to be a hedge fund because we believe that yield, we're providing yield as a service. So we're not trying to make $2.20. We're trying to be a service provider. So if, by the way, before we talk, Silt, I know Colleen is here. If Colleen wants to jump in just hit the request, Colleen, we'd love to hear because, Colleen, you got to sell me. I got to buy something before we leave this.
Sell me. I got to put it.
cash money down on the table um but one of the questions i have was pricing so let me ask
let me let me go have another question but let's take way into pricing like what is it what's it
going to cost like was it like two dollars a month one 99 is it like three three dollars so it's a
five 99 subscription it's it's going to be more in the higher end of that for sure uh we're still
figuring out pricing specifically but like you know there's
The clusters are pretty advanced and they have a lot of different, like there's maybe seven or eight.
different axes of pricing you have to consider with them.
So we're going to do our best to kind of accommodate that.
And the way they work is there would be like a bot limit that you set up from the get-go.
And then it's that's configurable.
But when you deploy that out there, you're paying for the cluster to continue
as you're running at those specific limits and you're getting that
you're getting that level of service.
Now, in addition to that, we're not doing RPC
because there's plenty of RPC providers out there,
so you kind of pick and choose your own using the aid plugin system.
If you want to use any sort of hosted
Yeah, sorry, if you want to use any hosted signer service, we have a AWS account plugin now, which is great.
I wanted to build a, yeah, there's a turnkey, which is like a hosted provider that has like rules-based signing for automation specifically.
I wanted to build a plugin for them.
So it'll be kind of pick and choose using the A plugin system,
how you build and deploy these bots.
The cluster is just there to make sure they run and respond to events.
Yes, yes.
This is, yeah, no, and I'm guessing you guys price it as a SaaS.
Is it an annual subscription or is it month to month?
So we're actually using our A pay system that we prototyped with chaos now,
which is really cool.
So it's per second streaming, kind of like Lama Pay.
Okay. So you can set it up and the really interesting thing that I'm really excited about is that you can have the bot pay for its own operation.
So that's really cool. I think that's really cool and I hope we'll see more of like hosted service providers adopting crypto payments as a way to like maintain your subscriptions.
We're kind of we're trying to lead the way here and we're actually using that service as our own payment system for the clusters. So you can do
Yeah, you can do this, you know, like if a body is successful, it kind of pays for itself.
If the whole cluster is successful, you're maintaining those payments once the month.
If it starts not being successful, maybe it shuts itself down after a while, right?
So that's kind of cool.
Very, very cool. And of course, doing so allows us also to be able to layer in the cost, you know, into the pricing for our users. So for users using, you know, something like a yield, you know, a yield searcher or, you know, a yield chaser.
we can predict essentially what the cost per user,
or cost per them is.
And that means we don't have to charge them
on a percentage of the liquidity.
We just start, here's a straight up charge per month
or per whatever period that they have on the subscription.
So it makes it much easier to run a SaaS business in crypto,
which is kind of cool.
So you guys maybe, so should I think of like,
you guys know, so about one of the few SaaS,
you know, logical SaaS businesses in crypto that is like fully on-chain
SaaS.
Yeah, that's what we're trying to do, like really lead the way on on-chain SaaS.
So like SaaS being the hybrid between the on-chain and the off-chain worlds, right?
Yeah, yeah.
We want to build.
And Silverback is a way to provide that.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, I think we and the Paloma chain community would love to further explore Silverback,
play with it, see how, you know, what Faloma has to offer can be, you know,
integrated as an offering into Silverback as well.
I mean, it's going to be, you know, it's early days for us because we're learning as you're sharing.
But our community would love, love to see how we can continue to, you know, bring this type of business to Defi because it's very, very cool what you guys are doing.
And it just opens up new opportunities.
Absolutely.
You have Colleen, you have Colleen, Colleen's telegram.
If anyone wants to talk to Colleen, she's been handling all requests, Defi Dipshut.
Yeah.
Deep bite dish.
Yeah, that's her handle.
100. That gets 100 for me.
All right, so it's very, very cool.
Well, I want to say it is congrats on the launch.
Silverback seems much bigger than what I originally read and saw.
And I think definitely something that we would like, the community would like to get into.
Definitely valuable and interesting for us in Paloma and our validator set that essentially manage liquidity and custody liquidity for a lot of users.
We are very active in the curve ecosystem, so we have a few curve bots and it would be very, very cool to use Hilarack to see we could enhance curvebot execution in that ecosystem.
One of the further off ideas that we had is more of like an application store where like maybe you publish these bots.
It's like a pay per use type model.
And then people can deploy it on their own on themselves.
So it's like Henschengenget as a service, pick and choose your favorite strategies, kind of run them in a cluster.
It's a great model.
Yeah, no, absolutely. We agree as well. And I think we also appreciate that off-chain computation is where it's at. I mean, you need the ability to ingest, index, clean, compute, and then conclude, you know, come up with, you know, a determination or conditional very, very fast. And if you guys already have that.
That's the big thing.
Yeah, so we have like the execution and listening part.
The big thing we're working on is like the computation.
And so we have like a query system within 8 that can produce data frames.
That's kind of the main memory structure, if you will, at the bots.
And we're going to continue improving those with some like protocol specific SDKs.
Like we've been experimenting with like a uniswok one that can listen to and produce like large, you know, pool structures, find the most efficient routes, that kind of thing.
We can do something with curve.
You know, any major protocol out there, you'll get a nicer dev experience and a lot less code in the final lot implementation.
Yeah, yeah, no, that is awesome.
Just to confirm, I mean, how big can the data frame be?
I mean, can we get tick-by-tick data on a Unisop v3 pool?
And can we ingest that, or is there size constraints that, you know, watch the air one.
When you create the cluster, you'll give a bottom maximum memory limit.
That's your limit.
So two gigabytes, four gigabytes, 16, whatever you want to give it.
Yeah, you're really provisioning it.
So I'm provisioning on-chain compute for my on-chain compute for my on-chain data,
for then my on-chain execution.
Yes, closing the loop.
This is beautiful. We love it. All right. Well, we are just to get folks a quick heads up, Paloma is launching Nodesale on right now August 21st. It says August 14, but August 21st.
And Paloma is very much loves ApeWorks. We work with the framework. And our goal will be to build more decentralized liquidity management solutions via a validator set. And of course, to build closer bots that connect with
silverback bots and APEWork bots to then provide even yet more tools and more options for folks that they can take advantage of this off-chain computation, which we love. We totally know it's the edge. I mean, we've made, you know, we've come, we've, you know, we talk about it every day on our team. It's all about off-chain computation. Can you get it?
fast can you get it cheap and then can you execute and i think uh it seems like syllabak is answering
those questions uh which means uh yeah more products for paloma and more products for for the validator
set so we are excited to uh to play very cool thank you senior senior doggy uh again are you guys
doing any events coming up anything new how do folks you know get involved with the ape works community
Yeah, I mean, we're really excited for this product launch.
I think we're looking ahead to DevCon to see what we can pull together there.
So we'll see everyone in time, hopefully.
Cool, cool, cool.
Also, I think if we have any discounts on our Paloma Node sales, is it okay?
We bring it to you.
You guys take a look and see if it's something that maybe might be interesting to share with the community.
Sure, why not?
All right, we'll keep in touch with that.
And, well, I think we'll leave you guys here with a great weekend, some cool alpha.
Please check out Apeworks and their new silverback product.
And D.I. Diphtit is waiting for your telegram, Colleen.
And this is very, very cool stuff.
We look forward to hearing more, playing more.
Thank you very much, Doug.
Thank you.
All right.
Thanks, guys.
See you guys next week.
Chow.
Cool the music.
We know
And never know where it's coming from
And as soon as we get it
We seem to think that our word is done
The same thing it took to kiss that love
All the things that you'll have to do to keep it
You gotta stay on, you'll stay on, do,
