Zmz everyone looks like we are pulling everyone on stage
You can see the title privacy plus blockchain. How is it important diving deep into privacy today?
We'll play some music and then we'll kick things off
Here we'll get some we get some privacy sounding music going while we let everyone flow in
Well little cyberpunk style music for you guys, let's go
Where did you find that song rock that how is that?
I thought it kind of when went well with the privacy there said it's all about humanity. It's kind of cool
Calling it all the roads lead to to Pauli. You should call it all the roads lead to Molly or something, you know
Yeah, so it's it's ag layer day
so this is a big day for polygon just want to shout that out and
Yeah, thanks to the quick swap team polygon team that help out with the show and
It's good to see everyone here on the panel. We're gonna be diving deep into privacy if you guys have not been here before
You don't have to raise your hand after once we get through the introductions
You don't use your hand you just jump in whenever you like
We have a like a free-flowing kind of conversation, but we'll get to that in a second
We want to introduce everyone first if that's okay with you rock. What do you think?
Yeah, let's do it man. Our listener count is starting out real small today. I think it's because we have a
so I don't know how this happened, but we kind of double booked by
It's ag layer day. So there's some presentations and stuff happening
So kind of unfortunate but we'll deal with it
and I think more polygon people who are over on some of the other stuff will come over here in a bit but
Yeah, we kind of messed up on this double booking the times
Yeah, all good all good we're gonna we're gonna dive in anyways and
Yeah, really excited for ag layer as well. We talked about it in depth and our last
Episodes if you guys want to re-listen to that one actually had Brendan from polygon
Come and kind of explain the entire like landscape kind of
Let everyone ask a bunch of questions on the panel as well. So it was a great
Paul as well and Paul Egon was great
yeah, but for now, you know, we we have
today we have privacy and
Blockchain this is gonna be a good one guys
Let's go ahead and introduce everyone and retweet guys. Let's get this space shared these numbers are looking these are rookie numbers
Good times are really retweeted. So nice. So yeah, anyone else I
I can I can I do a little
Promotion of the room. Hell. Yeah, I love it. That's like my favorite thing
All right, everybody. Welcome. This is all roads lead to polygon
Thanks everybody for joining
If you guys would not mind going on down to the bottom right hand corner
You will see a little purple comment box if you click on that
It will take you to the link to the spaces and it looks like we have got 11
Retweets of the room. We've got 89 people in here
I definitely think that we could pump those numbers up just a little bit
Let everybody know that we are out here. So let's get that going
It shows that you support the space. It's free doesn't cost anything and we would really appreciate it
Hell yeah, it's hard. Thank you. Smokey
Smokey I was looking at the all the microphones below me on the panel and
Cuz polygon shows to up above me and to the left and I'm like who's speaking and I'm like dude that's smokey
I'm like what like where is he speaking from then? I remembered your you're on the polygon handle. So
Good times, bro. Thank you for that
Yeah, so I love smokey guys. Let's give some let's give some purple heart for our buddy smokey here
Super well-known in the NFT community like multi-chain wealth of knowledge
metamid person the guy is a
Awesome guy. So when we when we say give some hearts by the way, we're not just talking to the speakers guys
We're talking to the audience here you guys we can see you we can see your emojis
Just so, you know, we can see everyone
We'll shout you guys out. I see I just passed some people that were hearting here Jared do it again
Let's give some some purple hearts for smokey and I'm gonna read out who's I saw a loop parting
medieval empires throwing some hearts Dean Toshi
three-medded with the hundred
crypto Vixen lavati Chica
Dragon I own T 90 so writer
Anita G. I'll follow you back else
The black-hearted bouncers in the in the crew we also got nerd girl throwing purple hearts
Yeah, much love everyone much love for smokey, all right, let's introduce everyone I go from left to right
So let's start with web a see if you could just take 30 seconds to introduce yourself
Let everyone know what you're doing in the space and then we'll just pass the mic
Sure. Thanks for having me guys
Then I feel like I'm a semi-regular now. So it feels good to be in the fam
I'm Brian one of the co-founders of web a see we're a
Protector for your wallet in crypto
So we have three products that people love using one as a monitoring product
You get notifications every time you do anything across your polygon
And a bunch of other chains are less relevant
Of course, and then we help you score your wallet for your safety and security tell you what's going on in there something wrong
You can revoke things get it cleaned up and the last is we have a panic button
So if you want to panic assets out something happens
You have the option to it's assuming human error people do make mistakes. So we're we call ourselves as
We want to make sure people can stay safe right now because of all the crazy activity that's going on
especially with this quasi bull coming back
enough people out there trying to
Rub you rob you get your crypto. So we're here to protect you quasi bull but soon to be Super Bowl
Why I wanted to be Super Bowl bro, but let's just say
It will be Super Bowl very soon. There we go
Yeah, great to have you back here bro, and um, yeah the
Maybe super cycle coming maybe we'll see
Let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to Brendan
Good morning everyone. It's great to be here today again. Thanks for having me brendan from masa
Um at masa we're building a zero knowledge data network. Um, we've been working with quick swap for
Maybe like six or seven months now and what we do is we give
users ownership back to their data in their digital footprint and then give
Anyone on the network the ability to monetize their data that is used for training ai models
Um building ai agent networks and creating personalized user experiences
So, you know really like the topic of today where we kind of really focus on data privacy data ownership
And yeah, excited to be here
Awesome, it's great to have you back on the show
And uh, let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to eternity cloud
Hi guys, uh, i'm usf the founder of eternity cloud
Uh, thank you for inviting me again
So because it's early cloud it's a deepin project
However, our project it's very focused on privacy
And when I say privacy it's also important to point out that blockchain
brings a bit of transparency, um
What we focus on um is to build a it's already built and it's ready to be implemented in different products right now
We build a compute protocol
That takes the data and processes it in a confidential way
uh using confidential computing
And sends the results back to the user
with uh encrypted with their
Public key so only they can read it
The point the reason why we build it during the cloud focused on privacy
Is the fact that we want the user's data
To be at all time including during use to be encrypted
But we also want the process
Um of what happens with the data to be transparent?
This way anyone knows what's happening, um with their information
But their information it's kept private through the hallway
So, uh, thank you for inviting me here
And um, yeah, let's pass the mic to the next person
Sounds good great to have you back on the show and and uh, sounds like you guys are like always, you know building something really awesome
Let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to luke from brave. What's up, brother? Great to have you
Good morning. Morning. Thanks for having me on. Um, yeah, i'm luke mulch's uh
Bp business operations are brave like co-authored the basic position token and
Um, if you're not familiar with brave, you should uh, you should give it a shot
We've been bringing 67 million monthly active users to privacy since uh 2016 or point 15 or whatever
But um, we also are like big on user first principles
Making sure the web's private for people by default and then um, we have web 3 basically built in
The stuff that the ipfs and a bunch of other great web team stuff is pulling through the web. So don't be here. Thanks for having me
Always awesome to have you on the show luke
And uh, let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to one of my brothers, uh red-eyed bear
Wow, bro, great to have you on the panel speak to you
Yeah, I appreciate it for anyone who's not familiar with me. My name is red-eyed bear
Uh, I help out with the operations at shade protocol for anyone who's not familiar with shade protocol
The protocol is an interconnected suite of privacy preserving defi applications that are built on the secret network
Which is a permissionless layer one smart contract platform that provides privacy preserving smart contracts
That's built using the cosmos sdk
shade protocol believes that
You know, it's your money your data your decisions
The user should ultimately have control and optionality for sharing those things
And shade protocol currently represents the most comprehensive private defi ecosystem and all of crypto right now
that's currently comprised of
The world's first private over collateral a stable coin that's pegged to a basket of currencies and commodities private liquid staking derivatives
privacy preserving bonds and upcoming money market and
Awesome, thank you for that introduction red-eyed bear and love love this stuff you guys are doing man
Thank you, yes, definitely
Definitely bro, uh, let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to miguel from arkin
Guys i'm miguel i'm the ceo of arkham intelligence, which is a blockchain analytics company
Uh focused on giving people tools, uh in order for them to be able to understand blockchain data better
Uh, we offer support for a bunch of different networks including polygon
Uh, we released the product a little under two years ago
Uh, and i've seen a massive amount of traction
From a number of different retail and institutional investors
Who are interested in, you know analyzing and trying to find alpha on chain
projects protocols, uh and other
People in the space who have had, you know hacks or other sorts of
Things happen to them that require, you know doing a bit of on-chain tracing to try to see where their funds are at
Awesome, yeah arkham also looks very interesting and it's great to have you here miguel. Let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to alan
What's up everybody can you guys hear me all right before I get started yes
Sick, uh, I guess good evening. Um
I think that privacy is the hill to die on in web 3
Railgun privacy project janitor, uh been around for a while
Pretty excited to have gotten invited. So I woke up here in tokyo at 1 am to join you guys
Um, so super stoked to talk about all things privacy in the d5 space
Railgun is a privacy project
It is a smart contract system that allows you to
Use a zero zk address to interact with
Defy projects in the d5 space. So for example, you could today provide liquidity to quick swap from a private address
And no one know it's you and you can do that with railgun right now. Thanks for having me guys
I didn't know that that's cool
I didn't either that's cool. Did you know that?
For the last maybe two days
Nice we'll have to talk more offline about that
Yeah, we should connect. Mm
Uh, nice one. I think we all we all got uh, we didn't know that it was it was pretty interesting man. Um
I I would love to use that. Uh, let's go ahead and pass the mic on over to evingly
Uh, hey everyone. My name is afghani. Um, I'm a part of one inch analytics team
I'm a data data scientist here
do a lot of on-chain and off-chain analytics regarding general crypto space and
Thank you quick swap team and polygon team for inviting me today on this talk and
inviting one inch on this talk
Maybe i'll share a lot of useful insights about general data transparency. It's uh
Data transparency regarding on-chain protocols at one inch and we hope to have a good talk today
Definitely it's great to have you have a great conversation
I guess we could go ahead and just jump right into it. I think we introduced everyone
Let's see. Yeah, we we introduced everyone. So
Rock you ready to jump in
Yeah, I just gotta say that this is probably
Man of all the topics we've ever done this might be
The one that i'm most interested in I think it's such an important
Um, it's such an important, you know human right
And uh, it's really unfortunate that in our modern world
Evaporating like a boiling pot of water
Yeah, it's just really sad and I think
Um, I think it was was it alan maybe who said that this is the hill we need to die on
I don't know. I don't want to die on this hill and i'm scared in many many times when i'm making decisions to be a
We do need to fight for this uh, and and hopefully there are people willing to be a martyr for this
Some I I mean, you know, we had a conversation over the last week. Um
Some of our team was was in touch with uh, Edward Snowden's team and
The team our team was discussing like should we if we can get snowed in should we have snowed in on and?
Ignorantly my answer was what the fuck helped obviously we have snowed in on
Were like hey man. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa, like
I mean one of our team members said 100 we can't do this like this is snowed in is, you know
We don't want to if we're hosting him
You know, there will be government now watching us as if we're assisting this fugitive or something and I spoke with uh
A lot of friends about this I talked to
uh, one of the 12 people that satoshi sent the white paper, uh to before posting it online and asked him what he thought about this
yeah, I don't want to talk about his background but he
He has some reason to understand all of this and um, yeah
He he said also and he's a huge crazy privacy advocate
Is uh was on the signal foundation etc
And he uh, he said like don't do it. He just doesn't think it's worth it. Um
Which is kind of crazy. So i'm you know, i'm always in this place where
We're trying to decide, you know, how can we?
You know at lda which I guess I should introduce myself. Um, we never do barely but uh, yeah
So i'm i'm ceo of lunar digital assets, which is an incubation marketing company. We incubate it and market for a lot of projects like
originally when polygon first launched and quick swap and doe chain and
persistence and many others
Um, and then you know, i'm a co-founder of quick swap
So, you know, we're often like faced with these things like for example, um
We're talking to someone actually who uh will be speaking today
So I won't say what that who is because those conversations early but about bringing uh, some privacy swap stuff to quick swap
Uh as as one of the features we have and you know, one of our big questions is well
Will this get us in trouble?
Can we can we can we support this?
Uh, so it's always this like thing of I want to highly support privacy and I want to fight for it
And but I don't know that i'm willing to fight to the death. Maybe i'm maybe i'm weak
I maybe I just don't want to be in jail. I don't know but
uh, it's always this uh this constant struggle in in my mind and I think in a lot of my
My colleagues minds and so I love projects like like shade for example
They're they're fighting for this and they're taking the risk because in reality, let's face the reality
If you're building stuff in privacy, you are taking a risk
Um, you know, I still don't understand the full story of tornado cash and I hope someone today can
Maybe explain it to me better. Um, I was like listening to
You know podcasts about it last night and still don't fully understand the story. Um
But you know the the bottom line is if you're working in privacy
Government might try to make an example out of you many governments might right?
Um, and and i'm in america, which is supposed to be the land of the free and i'm i'm scared even here
I'm sure in other countries people are even even more scared. So yeah, i'll stop there. Um
But uh, yeah, i'm very excited to have this conversation with all of you
It's a great way to tee it up rock. Love it. Um
Yeah, we we could probably talk about the the tornado cash thing would be interesting to delve into at some point
Yeah, mosk actually joined the panel. So can can you take 30 seconds just to introduce yourself? Oh, yeah
And then we'll jump right into questions. Oh, yeah. Do you guys hear me hear me? Okay
Yes, so hi, uh, zero xlam from mask. I do operations and marketing at mask. Uh at mask
We're building a d d mesh vpn
Uh a browser a d app store and a protocol that helps everyone in web3. Um, be anonymous and private
Right now our product is in public testing phase
We're we're private by default one of one of the most things we're proud of is
Our network so private that we don't even know the number of of users using it at the moment
Uh, I invite you all to to give it to give it a test go to mask browser.com
And let us know what you think
And thanks very much for having us today
Great to have you here. I hear a lot of good things about you guys
I haven't fully like looked into it or tried it so it's uh, something that I I need to try out a lot of my privacy friends
Seem to like if you guys are building
So yeah, like rock saying uh, there there's uh
There there seems to be this kind of
You know these misconceptions about privacy also
Different issues that have come for people that are building in the privacy space
So let's go to start with this question. Uh, since you've heated uh, kind of heated up like this rock, um
What are and so guys if you if you are new
To all roads lead to polygon, you don't have to raise your hand
You can just jump in and answer
The question, you know, we just want a free flowing conversation
So here's the question. What are some common misconceptions about privacy?
In the context of blockchain technology and how can we address them?
I think like the number one thing is that people still assume and conflate pseudonymity with anonymity
So like more frequently than not most people think that like crypto is private and I think initially I was pretty guilty of this
Um, you know that I would have some sort of like reasonable privacy in crypto
Um, it's kind of what made me, you know want to contribute to something like railgun
um in the in the first place, um
You know being in some telegram groups, um, like i'm sure all of us are um back in the day
Um, you know people were exchanging alpha what shit coins they're getting into
You know different like allocation groups and stuff like this, right?
And I got a dm from a guy in one of the groups that I was in and he was like, hey, man
Dude, how did you get into?
Shit coin x let's just say and
I hadn't really talked about it and he was like, oh, well, this is your wallet, right?
And you know just by way of and this is you know, sort of, you know part of the way that you know
Maybe arkham works, for example
um, you know just by way of um
You know understanding some of the shit coins that I own and um being
You know having a uh, I guess a token that would uh,
Identify me in a group, right?
Um, you have a collab lamb bot for those who are familiar with uh telegram
Which can prove whether or not you own a token in a certain wallet
Um, yeah, long story short he was able to take an ether scan his way to you know
So I think like the the first thing that people fuck up in space is or you know
Spaces like web3 is that they assume that it is more private than it is and we could see that in like just regular news
Right. I mean people are like, you know, the anonymous bitcoin and things like this and it's just wholly wholly decidedly not true
And I think that like the other thing that's like one of the biggest misconceptions about privacy is that people don't understand
That they are not a target. They're totally right like no one's out there targeting directly
You as an individual and you know, you're a web3 presence, right?
You know, so people who argue that they don't care about the right to privacy because they have nothing to hide
um is a pretty pretty silly argument because the
non-discriminate nature of
It's such that they don't give a shit who you are, right?
If they can take and glean information about your wallet and steal things from it, uh, they're gonna try
Um anybody who's been on discord or telegram long enough knows
that people are out there trying to get your information trying to get at it so they can leverage more and more of it to make a more
appealing way to take your money from you and this is one of the things that people should be highly aware of when it comes to
Taking in like doxing what it is that they do on the internet particularly when it comes to their finances
Yeah, so you're saying it's indiscriminate just they just want mass they want as many targets as many victims as possible
It's not just you you're not that special. Yeah, it's not just they want to go out. Yeah, they will pick up pennies in front of a steamroller
Like like it's not just indiscriminate
It's wholesale and it's default privacy invasion, right?
And I think that in addition to the pseudonymity angle that people often, you know
conflate with being privacy is is the fact that
Web three is happening inside web two right inside the broader web and that web is literally designed to
the main money engine for that web
Stealing your information and snooping on what you're doing by corporate the global corporate, you know, uh environment
We could we could maybe say it's softer than that, right?
It's like the collection collision and the selling of the data, you know, and the ironic thing is is it's not stealing, right?
It's out there for granted. Well, I mean
Let me put it that's the beauty of it. Is it let me frame it this way like, um, uh from first principles, right?
The web the the the companies that you're going to on the web are putting
Corporate interest ahead of yours, right? But but I think that it doesn't have to be nefarious
This is just how stuff scaled right like the most companies
Were aren't thinking about this stuff and and they honestly this is at the scale
It is nobody's ever done this before right like, um, but but I think that the thing that people
especially developers in in web 3 I wish they would
Be a little more conscious of is the fact that like if you have a connection with wallets to
Financial transactions through your gap and you're running google analytics in your gap
You are basically giving an authority everything, right?
Because those web 2 analytics companies are tracking everything that you're doing when you go across the web
And it's not them singling you out. It's just that the default
The default conditions for the web involve scraping collating, uh, basically
Yeah, right it's true right like so that's the other thing that's kind of people keep conscious of right like is that you know
It's not like people are trying to hunt you down. It's just that the nature of it. It's just it's
Sour yes love that you're on and braves on and the ads background of
Basic attention token and nature because I do want to remind everybody here listening real quick though. Why privacy even is a topic
Of concern that keeps on coming up where it came from with the web 2 world
Which was fundamentally ads right when you think about things that were coming through web 2 and how to make money
It was through ads and transactions people buying and the only way to give you an ad
That was relevant to you was to get data on you, right?
So I think we want to you know, understand like the the core backbone of the internet and what has created most commerce
Came from ads and then our top
Largest internet companies in the world make 90 plus percent of their revenue still off ads
Right it was a transition
Yeah, right like it used to be like it used to be I mean it's always the privacy issue has always been
Present but it used to be a lot less
pervasive than it became right like early like so put yourself like
2005 to like 2010 or 98 to 2010 whatever right like
You go to a site ads were sold to the site
The site was the place where the buyers wanted to buy the ads and and and that's why uh publishing properties became so popular
And monetizable, but then when programmatic advertising kicked in and google facebook all these other big companies started to buy up
Yes agencies and like just make programmatic a thing
It became it went from the sites being a target to the people being the target
But a lot of the people here probably don't even know what programmatic is not to like i'm not saying people are not smart
I'm just saying like from us because we came from where I came from the ad world. I spent
Right, please break it down with us
Basically is a way to aggregate audience data across multiple properties and then find you wherever you are
Right, so you can be visiting cnn
You can be visiting wall street journal you can be visiting any other site
But we now know who you are and that's where the cookie came from
And what happened was the data that became valuable and there's a reason why I brought it back to this
I don't want to derail the conversational
I'm just explaining why privacy even became a hot button topping in the first place
You know, obviously there are components of privacy that have been exploited, you know for political operatives and other reasons that are politically driven
But at least majority of the reason why privacy became a problem or something that people were being
brought attention to or need to be aware of and why services like brave and duck that go exists is because of the exploitation of that
And our personal data for the gain of ads and commerce, which was the the fundamental money-moving engine of the internet
Now when we transfer that to web 3 and this is where I bridge it over
The concerns have been largely based on a similar lens
like what are they going to do with my data and how are they going to use it unfairly and not give me anything in return
And how you know all these types of concerns that are there I think fundamentally a privacy conversation with web 3 are completely different
Because it's already even the playing field by the nature of everything actually supposed to be being public if that makes sense, right?
So that has made the concerns either people who are like just flag waving tinfoil hat wearing people going
I don't want people to know my shit. I'm gonna be suit anonymous and anonymous or try my best to hide myself
Even though everything I do is by nature is supposed to be public if I'm supporting this technology in the first place
Because that's the whole point of a public blockchain
And then we had this argument a couple weeks ago about like private blockchains in the merits of that
And I don't want to go to that right now
But like the privacy conversation of web 3 is not the same as the privacy conversation of web 2
And that's the distinction I wanted to make here at least for people to understand no one's exploiting your
Your private your transaction data web web 3 for selling you ads
There's no ads in web 3 by the by the nature of what we've seen today
Obviously good working on that, but that's not what's happening
I mean, there are there are companies that are kind of leveraging that stuff now
I think that's kind of one of the reasons why I wanted to bring up that point was just that yeah
something people should be super mindful of because
If if you're putting something into a system that's already corrupted against the user's interest
And then you're tying public financial records to those uh to to that system
You're actually giving an adversary a a better picture than what they had before and and and I think there's another issue here too
Where like, you know people like to have their persona public in a lot of ways with web 3 things
and and you know, I think this is why i'm stoked that it's great to be among company of a lot of
privacy focused companies in in this space because
Privacy with web 3 is like a super important area that the space needs to focus on because these you know
Governments are going after it businesses are trying to make money from it while web 2 space like chrome is going to block third-party cookies
Which is taken forever than to do well
All the marketing companies are going to look for new ways to track people
and so the the sooner and the more big brains you get on
Focusing on privacy with web 3 the further ahead that the space can be of this transition that's happening between you know
Old web 2 privacy invading stuff kind of some of them getting deprecated and then people looking for the next thing to start targeting
I think the last thing to say here is that the transacting is not sorry
It's real quick the transacting web 3 larger right now is not item driven. It's not like commerce
So the per transaction per person knowing you like, you know
Gardening and targeting you with a gardening ad is very different at least in web 3 the monetization is happening through flow of money
through swapping exchanging lending
Right transacting had happened through nft land
But that obviously subsided a bit
Uh rwa's may bring back some of that, but I think the ad economy comes from
Services driven transactions versus the way the money's been flowing within our economy couldn't it couldn't it be even?
Worse in this situation kind of to luke's point
I mean targeting you based on your financial transactions
And your your total like like not just your financial tracks not just that I spent
20 on some whatever oven myths from uh, yeah
From amazon. This is like, oh this guy has you know, a hundred
ethereum or a hundred matic or a hundred bitcoin and he did this and
We can't but he's also the profile as people split their assets up just recently I was actually targeted
uh, I actually was told not to talk about it, uh, but
It's it's true like people
especially if you're doxed
You know that you probably you you probably have
A wallet out there that people
Have in especially for your docs that they've assigned their name to
and they follow everything you're doing and
they will try to find a way to either social engineer or
Find some kind of direct way to hack you I mean
So and and I directly experienced this just this weekend
At doing a complete pare down. So it's it's actually kind of crazy that this uh conversation is
That this is our topic today because I and you guys are talking about this because I actually experienced this. Um
Good thing. I have, you know, a great system in place
and I was able to catch everything immediately
and uh, I I didn't lose anything that I know of but uh
Yeah, so it it's it's true I I would like to um
Authority, I I know you guys were you were gonna say something if I could pass the mic to for a second. Yeah
yeah, so I I totally um feel you man on this one because
Um, i'm also being the ceo the founder company, um
There's wallets with company controls. Obviously people see that
Um, you know and it's okay. It's from the community always, you know, it's that's that's what's good about blockchain is transparency, right?
But then when it comes to private
Funds that have nothing to do with the company or something that should be public the community. It's a bit different
You know people tracking that um, they would you know ride me? Okay, let's do this
Let's do you know, I was proposed all kind of deals
and of course I refused them
They try because they see it
They see some wallets moving easier from like years ago
Into some wallets and then ended up in this early cloud and you know, then they look at those wallets
Fuck I need to you know get with this guy and figure out or whatever they think about
but the point is we do become a target, right
that's one point but the other point is
If we are going to be using web3 for actually doing business
There's like if you want to have
Then you don't want the records to be public
You want the process to be public right to to know that your data was
But you don't want the data to be public
So this is where you know at some point stuff that's off chain needs to be encrypted and needs to be
Using of course data management techniques and stuff like that and protocols
Where it's not public anymore
Because you cannot do business if we want web3 to actually be used as web2 is used
We have to draw a line and say from here on
This it's we cannot touch this
And from here on it's transparent
If there's a process that case takes care of my data to do some stuff
I want that on chain. I want that as transparent as possible
I want to see everything that's going on all wallets involved and tag them if it's like government stuff, right?
I don't want the data to be exposed so this is
where people need to think what they put on chain and
You know talking about tornado cache and stuff like that
If I knew about them in the past
my own private activity to you know on chain data
You do become a target, right?
But of course the danger here is
That other people use it and they don't use it for good. So this is
Let's say the problem. Um
When people abuse it then this is when regulation starts and then everybody has taken measures and stuff like that
so we just say the same thing right about every single thing in the world like
The internet because the internet was also used for tornado cache should we ban it? Absolutely. Yeah
Right. Exactly. So yeah, exactly. So
In my mind is like everybody's innovating and these innovations
But then all we can do is look at the regulators and everybody else and do our best to to overcome these challenges
Uh, but standing back and saying we're not doing this
Um, it's a way like I don't want to die on the hill either
We the more we're on the hill the better this
From my point of view we can push it, right?
For privacy of the data, I think
Has to come now because blockchain is entirely transparent
But if we want to actually have a good use of it for important things in life like business
any kind of you know private stuff that people use today
because with web2 space is becoming hard and hard to do it because it's all the big companies that
parse all our information they feed it in ais now and
It's done. Right? Like there's no
I'm gonna get into the ai stuff. Uh, wait, I got a question for you guys
Like you have your stuff on google cloud, uh pretty much it's all parsed no worries jiminy has
If I could jump in just quickly so so i'm a founder and the ceo from a melty group we have we have a
commerce uh telco super app, uh specifically for the telecoms, uh connectivity
One one factor where one thing we're looking at with our customers, which is you know, a t-mobile doj telecom, uh o2 telefonica
and uh, what's you know, they're uh, very uh
very reluctant to give uh
Sort of give that privacy, uh, you know control to to to their to their customers to their subscribers. Uh, they're also very
publicly the the data the transactions of their customers, right so
These are these are some things that are are kind of challenging in order to get adoption of of these kind of institutions in there
We're working with them. Uh, you know
Literally, uh yesterday the day before I got off the phone from deutsch selcom the the innovation web3 guys, uh
based in bonn and and you know, they're they're like saying we're still uh
discussing internally if we can actually come out with a non-custodial or or uh, you know, or just
The what kind of uh, who's going to be owning it and what kind of wallets and these kind of things it's still
the questions that they're resolving and uh
I think with this uh privacy issue
It's it's going to be a huge challenge because uh, you know
I think they will come to terms that uh, there's a huge trend and they the telcos they go by trends
They you know, if it's if it's uh, the cloud it's it's uh, it's cool
If it's a trend if it was 10 years ago, no, no way we're going to put our data our customer data in clouds
But of course now it's it's trendy everything is in the cloud
So they put their data in cloud, so I think so this will happen with blockchain as well
But how do you how do you overcome that that factor that uh, you know, they don't want to be showing their competitors
They don't want to be showing uh, how much uh, you know joe makes or or uses uh in his transactions or buys from them and so on
um, I think that's that's a huge huge challenge and uh
I think we're still at we're at an early phase, you know with that for sure. Um, I mean, I think it's pretty fucking simple
Privacy is super important even in tradfi
You don't see people going to starbucks and buying a cup of coffee and then you're able to see their entire transaction history
Uh, that would be that would be fucking weird or imagine if you went and you took a girl out for valentine's day
You paid the bill and she goes and looks on chain and sees that you know, you've got 40 bucks
In your account, you probably never get laid again, right? So privacy
Privacy is super important even in tradfi and I think that that should relate the same way
Right now there's too many too many very sophisticated actors
I don't remember who mentioned it, but they're getting more and more sophisticated when it comes to social engineering
Um, if they are able to see even a single token that is in your wallet
They'll probably think okay, you're at least going to be in a telegram or a discord of those
Try and find you in some some way somehow
Um, and this is this is why for for me. Hey guys, i'm hila representing, uh, shush.py
We it's basically just a tool simple tool that allows you to
We make sure that we uh are fully compliant with all of the all of the regulations
uh, you know aml regulations, uh, anti-terrorism stuff, but
Obnoxious for people to think it's okay for things to be private
Tradfi sense, but then it's scammy or illegal if we try and do the same thing in web3
It's a really good point. Hey red-eyed there and uh, uh
Um of jenny, uh, please please jump in guys
We um, I know you this is uh, I think it's your first time on the show
But just throw an elbow in jump in in the conversation
The reason we do it like this guys is is because um
We're not we don't want people to be rude to each other or anything
It's just but like it creates this kind of like
Free-flowing conversation that that is a little bit more exciting for for people that are listening instead of like one person
One person one person one person, you know
Um, and it and it's just it's more again. It creates that more organic kind of conversation
So that's why we don't do the raising hand thing
But um, I see your hand up bro, uh red eye you you've had it for a while
Let's just get out of the way tech i'm elbowing you get out of my way, man
Do it man elbow me tell me to shut up
It's mostly because i'm you know, i'm trying to do some other stuff at the same time
So i'm just waiting for that natural, uh point to come in but appreciate the the context here
I really just wanted to say, you know
So for us, we're we're focused on providing that privacy for defi
So for us shade smart contracts is a way to provide that privacy on chain value
Whether that's assets or data and
You know, it's great to see so many groups here looking to provide these privacy preserving solutions for various levels of the tech stack
That you know users are interacting with at least from shade protocols perspective
You know, we're built on a privacy preserving smart contract platform
As shades smart contracts have encrypted inputs and outputs and the state of these smart contracts is encrypted as well. So
users actual on-chain interactions
With these financial applications is protected from that the extraction of value by publicly readable data
Easy examples of this are being able to provide front running resistant swaps and trading
You know protection from meb being able to provide private liquidation points for borrowing and lending positions
so it's providing protection from
You know forced liquidations as a result of liquidation of hunting liquidation points
private staking positions private
Just to jump in those both of those
Hiding liquidations what a what a powerful tool and this is why like
In the traditional world they they don't want people knowing their positions because there's someone who could trade against you for example
Terra Luna this, you know ust the stablecoin as well as also
FTX and their their ftt token, which like it seemed like, you know binance might have been making a play on
If they had protection over the those values that that data they might not they
Maybe there's a there's a chance they would be still alive today
Well, I guess what we're talking about right is like
um, I mean the whole beauty of like web3 is that you have like this really great opportunity to like
Have transparency around the mechanics of like an application and how it works, right?
So, you know, for example, if I have some stable coin that I want to take and trade for eth
Um, I can actually go and verify that the routing um is going to work, right?
I can go I can look on chain and I can know for certain
Uh how much i'm going to get back in exchange, right?
This is something that's really really important is like really high value and it's something that I would praise really, you know
Loudly, uh in terms of like dap mechanics, right?
Uh, which is why you know, I mean I tend to generally dislike, you know private daps just from a like dap economics
I I think that like we kind of like strike a really interesting dynamic and that's kind of like
What you know railgun contributors are after right and that is like from the the wallet side privacy, uh angle, right?
Yeah, I mean the simple like actor to actor warfare, you know
These identity actors that operate on space is definitely toxic for the ecosystem
You know, there's been way too many tweets out there about actor x is levered here and you know
All we have to do is, you know, fuck this guy and the price is going to go here, right?
And all of this like on-chain position voyeurism
isn't good for markets, uh, let alone individual security, right and
You know, that's that's something that is worth solving, right? Wallet side privacy is
You know definitely more akin to like what traditional finance is
Um, and I don't think that history should repeat itself, but I think it's okay for it to rhyme, right?
You know, so, you know tradify has it such that individual actors are not doxxed. Um without their permission
I guess you could tell people right, uh, you know wallet side privacy in our case, right?
And so, you know, I don't know how much is in your fidelity account
But I can verify like the 10k statements of tesla for example
right, and this is like the kind of
Balance that I think that we should really look to strike and actually make it a little bit more interesting
And powerful in that like we can have like pure mathematics around it as well, right?
So I think that's something that's really really cool. And that's kind of what we're striking with
Um, you know with railgun, right? So with a zero zk address
Um, you know, you can take and swap on quick swap. You can provide liquidity to quick swap for example on polygon today
Uh, which is really dope, right?
Um, and this means that people who are building things like quick swap
They don't have to focus on the privacy problem, right?
What they should focus on is making really dope ass mechanics for people to swap and not get hit, right?
You know rfq, uh, maybe looking at things like, um
Uh intent type, uh architecture for example
And really focusing on like the core thing that they do the best right which is making really dope swap stuff, right?
And you know people who contribute to things like railgun
Um, you know or uh, you know mask etc
Uh can take and work on the the privacy element, right?
So, you know, one of the things that we're working on, um is researchers in in railgun, right?
Is this thing called railgun connect?
Uh, which is going to be really really dope. Uh, so it goes from taking having to build
Uh integrations to actually simulating transactions locally
Um, and then bundling those into a snark proof to submit those by way of railgun. In other words you take and
Abstract away all of the integrationship that people write for these defi interactions
So like providing lp to to quick swap, uh, anonymously someone wrote that code
Uh, but you know, we're actually moving more towards like an automated process
Where it can listen to you know, things like rpc calls
Uh bundle those together into a multi-call and you know perform all those actions by way of that. Um
That zero zk that private address that people can make by way of the railgun sdk. Um
But I think a great point here of like I mean
I think that like you guys are all on the same page that like wallet side privacy is the
The dope thing to have I think wallet side indicates like personal like sovereignty and the protections of that and the financial
Scheme, right and then I also think there's like this idea of macro
Privacy and you and a broader ecosystem and then of course we talked about dap
Transparency, which is less about privacy, but you know, think of the the thousands of dune dashboards that you know
Tell you if a protocol is healthy or a product a project is healthy. These things are all helpful for protecting ourselves
I do think information asymmetry
Has a place in the world to prevent things like relations and people praying and doing predatory activity
So I think like when it comes to financial sovereignty individual sovereignty and helping protect that
I think there's merits to the the privacy components of it
And then there's of course like the the merits of of macro
And then someone earlier did bring up of course with their product and like, you know
The the uniqueness of web 3u and privacy affecting your financial health through through things like front running and mev
Which has only come up once here, which is surprising because
Is a component of that you could be ripped off
You could lose a lot of money just because you're not sophisticated enough to figure out ways to avoid that
And that's unique to web 3 obviously like if you did we mention any of those terms anybody in any other
Industry, then what the hell you talked about? There's no there's no equivalent of this in other places for the audience
So can you do you break down a minor?
Minor extractable value or red eye whoever wants to break that down
Uh in like a super simple term is just like because your your transactions are public and you went through uh,
A bunch of public nodes to get your thing confirming on the block
Someone could figure out that you're about to make a transaction and then
And then basically take the rewards out from the miners that would normally be getting it and try to
Front run you and have the ability to confirm your block
And then if you used a if a if you use an rpc
There's other services you could avoid that and directly go on and and and confirm your block without
Going through the mempool, which avoids you being front run and sandwich attacked which means which means you you uh,
Essentially, you may have to pay higher for the trade that you're trying to take
You explained it really well that like way more eloquently than I would have been able to that's why I said someone else take this one
I've had to try to explain because we were like well, what what does that mean?
Why would I even be affected by that and how do I avoid it?
And this was just the nature of our ecosystem
Which is because these things are public someone's going to figure out a way to find an inefficiency and take the money
So it's fair game for people to be doing that
Now it's obviously less common because a lot of this med protection is built in to a lot of products
Right, but that was something that people had to figure out and that was the nature of the the uniqueness of just the public ledger
Right. Um, and so we we will discover these things
Non-stop there will always be versions of these little kind of
You know parasites and and leeches on the side. They're taking advantage of public data
Um, and so I think there's like a block and tackling guess what i'm trying to say is there's a block and tackling day-to-day task
That a lot of the builders here on the panel have to do
You know lack of privacy within web3 right on a day-to-day basis and then there's a larger conversation around sovereignty of your own data
And how to protect them and financials i'm really curious
How how some of the other contributors to privacy protocols feel about this like, you know, we talk about
The the like explicit value that privacy provides for your service
Whatever part of the tech stack it is
But oftentimes, you know, there's other barriers
to entry whether it be ux friction or or something
uh unrelated to you know getting these privacy solutions adopted and
You know at least with the way we think about it with uh
From the defi perspective being on the app layer like you have to provide additional value outside of the privacy
Which kind of provides this, you know, we're inherently making our jobs that much harder
Not only are we having to introduce this privacy preserver, uh privacy preservation of data or value
We also need to be able to provide additional value and utility. Um, that helps us compete with
Kind of the incumbent product. So i'm curious kind of like how the other people here think about
The the value proposition of privacy relative like alongside the other value that's provided by your um
Whatever products you guys are building, you know
you know what I wanted to add is that it's important to distinguish between the privacy focused on
end user like consumer who like in traditional finance the user who pays like with your credit card and
and just uh using cash for a living and distinguish between financial privacy because
um capturing market inefficiencies as in
It's not always bad for the market because uh due to
Due to the public nature of the blockchain. You can also see the state of pools and therefore capture arbitrage opportunities
which is good for everyone because
Essentially what you're doing is you're making market more efficient and more liquid
And I really like the point of hold on. Hold on. Can you double tap on that? Yeah
Like oh rock where we want we wanted to dive into that
Yeah, what do you like because you're you're you're kind of spinning this in a positive
Uh way, can can you kind of dive a little bit deeper into why it could be seen as a positive?
I can't see how mev would be a good type of arbitrage
I mean arbitrage is a good thing in the world and it makes markets more efficient. But mev. I don't see that
But yeah, if you could explain please. Oh, no, no, no, it's not it's not the point of mev being positive. I'm
What i'm my point is that from the same source of you know publicity?
We get both mev and both arbitrage and arbitrage is good for markets mev is obviously bad for users
When because we have the context
Usually take this understanding for granted because for the end user
Uh in order for him or him or her to have that privacy for granted
while the banking system was built
The banks and their traditional financial system was under constant pressure
You do not hear the hacking use in banking. For example, it's such often occasion as in crypto
And because the traditional finance went through this phase when it became secure enough
because of that security privacy can be built on and then
The end consumer the users who pay with credit cards, they take their privacy for granted
They know they the cashier at starbucks won't know
Their transaction history on their balances. So
When we are building what we all want is to thrive for crypto
and we have when we are building products, it's important to distinguish between who we are building products because
even now in traditional finance when it's sold all completely secure and
Not not completely secure, but it's heavily invested in for example trading companies like blackrock and all the biggest funds
More the security levels of the transactions of traditional exchanges is uh on the high
high end part it's remarkably secure secure which cannot be said about crypto and
For even in these conditions people find way to somehow
Mess with it and exploit it in traditional finance. There is
Front running for example is is not a unique thing for crypto
It's it was a thing in traditional finance as well
And only after that their regulations came that and security exchange commission
It's prohibited because it acknowledged that okay as where the traditional finance grew
They first encountered encountered this problem and they knew it was bad for everyone. So they banned it and
Institutions had no other choice than to follow it
I uh, my point is and what I try to say is that in crypto we are in
Essentially on the same stage of figuring out what's bad for crypto
What's good for crypto? What's bad and good for the end user and etc. And
It's a really fun topic to think about
That's a good point. I like that
A lot of the issues around this stuff
I mean like coming from advertising and then from from the data side and startups and business side of this is that like
a lot of the reasons that or the majority of the reason not majority but a lot of the reasons why
people track things is for accounting purposes and I think like one of the strengths of
crypto and blockchains are that it's like basically
the best accounting system that people come up with so far as far as what you bring with transparency and and um,
and uh with with cryptography together, right like um, but but
A lot of this comes down to like what are you putting on chain? Like what needs to be on chain?
What doesn't need to be on chain?
The thing that's really hard about this stuff
And I know because we deal with this with web 2 and web 3 at brave because
We're trying to kind of create a web that just respects privacy out the gate that you can still do business on top of
Which means that like every accounting problem that's simple to solve in web 2
By putting a tracker on a page that has a bunch of you know information about you on it
Becomes a hard problem to initially solve and then once you solve it
You build onto the next thing and that's kind of the challenge. I think with building privacy tools is that
That first can miss conceptions that we were talking about earlier around
Sunimity and and um and how people
mistake that for being private I think the end goal is to
Enshrine or incorporate zero knowledge
with transaction data is to kind of
Remove that misconception and make that a norm. I mean, it's kind of like what would be ideal, right?
It would be to like oh, well like people have these assumptions around this stuff
Um, can we can we build the privacy as such to work on chain to where you know?
When it matters that you're posting stuff or or you know for developers like
What do you need to have to do the basic task or the basic accounting?
Thing that your business needs to have right like and if you don't need to do it, then don't track it, right?
like only track what you need to track and the problem is that like
tracking has become fashionable like with um with the internet and so
In a lot of ways it's working against agreeing to build something new. That's not really sexy
But is very critical to like building the next thing, right? Like which is one of those challenges. I think that
Acronyms right is like every season. Well, this was like what it was like in ad tech
It was like every two years
There's a whole new swath of expensive fashionable things that everybody needs to have that are all
I wanted to I wanted to I think it's really cool. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry
Yeah, I wanted to add about the actual browsing and that you know, we are
in discussions with opera
And of course, uh, we we we're we're talking to brave guys as well. Thanks to luke
And uh, it's it's uh, it's uh, you know some of their you know, what the browser story for opera for example
They are their revenue is what 90 percent from ads, right?
and uh, you know, you guys are what I like at brave is that actually it's it's you know, the data is is
You control it you you're not you're not giving it out. You're not selling it you you you're offering that now
I think too if they if they choose to but uh, how would how do you know that uh browser kind of that?
Lives off the ads and and uh, and and has that data and you know, even for companies and stuff, you know
In the telcos, there's a lot of these good good willed, uh, you know projects like uh,
But you know that you you build a super app for the web 2 so i'm not talking the web 3
For the telcos and you provide the you know video calling and domestic group calling which we have and all of those things
For chatting and you have that localized news and and content so people don't have to download other apps and save on data and all that
When they get the users, you know the data which they do now
A typical telco would have uh, you know
Just you go online for every two weeks to check your uh, you know
Your bill or you if you want to buy a phone or something
With this kind of uh, you know set up which they have is it's they they they know how much you're sending because they have the mobile
They know, uh, you know who you're talking they it's like it's like whatsapp. Uh, you know, uh telegram
And and that data is so valuable. So what they do is there's where they're actually boasting about it
This is i'm talking about mtn in south africa
They they built the super app for web 2 they're boasting about it. Well, we we could actually uh, sell the data and we're making that
Against that uh, how what we're building in web 3, right? So it's it's uh
Sort of a dilemma of how these companies I guess my question is these these traditional web 2s, which we do need
Let's be honest. We do need that adoption of them as well. We can't just ignore
Um, but we also want to be uh, you know
Uh, well, it's a shift in business models, right people are forced to learn different ways to make money
If it's not just through taking a vague and you buying a product or showing you a video
Morphing on web 2 was that they were incentivized to show you as many of these things as possible
Which is why we had clickbait why we had, you know, just sensationalist headlines and how reporting has
Devolved into a bunch of like you will never guess what this person did yesterday at 9 a.m
You know and the reason why they do that is to get you to click
Because they get more money off of the click and the impression and in web 3 none of those economics exist
Luckily and so new new business models are emerging. That's why it's so exciting
But it's but they're also going to know what the f you're doing at 9 a.m they're going to know
almost everything right if we do go that direction and and uh that you sent uh, you know, you're doing a call and you sent uh
a hundred usdt that you've uh
You your wallet that actually last week you bought this you you added that, you know
It's it's like we're gonna know even more
And and then we I mean they're they're gonna know more and be able to uh, take advantage of that
That's where the privacy. Yeah, that's why you need privacy
Exactly. But by the way, I wanted to add something that nobody added yet if that's allowed by the
We are blessing you come on stage michael know what's up
Thank you. We had some thank you. I wanted to also say hey welcome to
Oh, you were saying a joke man. I'm I'm so bad at jokes, bro. You really you are man. You're like a robot, dude
I was like, you know, he's still here
All right, you know, I was talking about kela damn it now
I got to dm him but no I wanted to give a shout out to kela and just say he's one
He's he's a very smart guy and i'm very interested in the new privacy. Uh
Uh tech that they're that he's working on now. Uh kela if you're still listening
Nice guys, i'm always happy to be here michael
I can tell you what i'm doing later, but I wanted to add something to the topic
So, I mean obviously love privacy let's go but there is one aspect which
We didn't touch upon but I think it will be mega important and it will be like make or break depending on the country
Which is the country right and the tax the tax people because right now
They're living in a in a situation where they have a lot of control
They can just ask the bank if they want to know how much money you moved around
Actually, i'm not sure most people don't even know this, but if you have a bank account in a different country
Then there is a rule where all the countries on this planet are part of other than north korea
From the bank they will report back to your home country
What is your bank balance in that other country's bank? Okay, so you might not know
But if you're trying to hide money somewhere, it's over. Okay now if you use crypto or blockchain
And they don't have this capability
Then what do you think they will be doing right? Do you think they like this idea, you know?
But there will be a situation where it needs to be somehow open
I mean not that I want this but that they would want that right to the to the government or to the tax people
Because countries live from taxes, right if you take away their taxes, they're dead, right? So so that's another
I disagree with that. How can we connect it with?
Yeah, yeah, okay. I think how do you how do you make it happen and countries with thrive?
Not all of them, but reduce and draft
Okay, I understand but there are not many countries on this planet who have this model
Uh, not even dubais will will have will be like this forever because they're already introducing 9% corporate tax. Yeah, but
How do we hold on how much how much have they blossomed under a low tax structure?
So I wouldn't argue that like oh, they can't survive under a low tax structure, which it sounds like you're saying it's that no
No, I think so now they're gonna now they're gonna go to the dark side and they're gonna they're
No, no, no, they're getting pressured by the by europe actually
They're getting pressured by europe and and that's why they have to introduce but they don't really want doesn't matter
But most countries have this right? So the u.s. Is quite important, right?
So how would we combine these things right to saying okay?
Us is not gonna have an issue with if like more than 50 percent of the money is moving on chain
Because honestly, okay, just be honest about it
How do we make it happen because it has to otherwise you have to do revolution or something like that?
Which is also not a great idea
Like fat f filings that you're talking about are self reporting first of all, I mean like
You're you're you're to actually be the person like when you go into a bank when you go into the bank
Right what you're talking about?
You know f bar fat f you guys can take and google this especially americans around f bar
Um, so for example speaking from an american context, um
You fell out of w9 you do it
A self-report let's be clear right you self-report those things right? And so I think like the the low
That you're not talking about you're not informed. You're not informed about i'm, sorry. Yes you self-report. I mean I i'm pretty
No, you're not because the bank the bank will have to report
To the tax man, whatever it's called in your country. Okay, exactly
Your bank balance and if your tax report
Looks different than all the bank balances that were summed up and it doesn't make sense
They will come and check your ass and then you have to show them everything. Okay, and then how do they get that tax information, man?
No, but listen you cannot you cannot hide from the tax man, okay, and that's a good thing
But if you have a payment system
You have a payment system
Where you yeah, you fill this out, but you can lie, right?
So they can go and check but how do they do it? If it's private or chain law? Yeah, you can break the law, right?
No, listen, i'm saying there are rules right now already in place, okay
And the incumbents would love to enforce those rules also on blockchain transactions
How do they do it if there is privacy that don't have any kind of access to prove?
Is is the I mean you're you're false flagging this right, you know
So what you're saying is is that there's an intermediary that's obliging us to the self-reporting
Which again, it is a self-report because you fill out the w9 and sign it to release the information
Right. Otherwise you they say oh, well if you say oh, I don't want to fill that out
They say tough. You can't have a bank account here
Because you need to comply with that in order to you know, deal with our terms of service. So the issue
That you're talking about right is is is an issue of disintermediation
Right that someone isn't forcing us to do this
Right has nothing to do with your ability or disability that privacy
Oh, no, I agree. But how do they enforce whatever rules already?
They have no access whatsoever to your data which they have currently right?
So, you know, just I mean just be honest about about this before you go ahead. Wait a second
Like sure, I love all of that stuff. I'm also crypto
Nerd. Yeah, but but just like imagine most of the money will move on chain
And and there is no intermediary which the whole point of it though. How would the the state then?
Double check you if you didn't misreport just think I think go ahead. I think what you are talking about would be
cryptocurrency and the central bank digital currency
The issues you're addressing. I think they could be fixed because it it is all the matter of
because if people adapt crypto more
the public pressure the system would have to change and
Maybe by having this baby it was it would change future. Uh, but we cannot know for sure
connectors too, right? I mean like
Like if there's like the way that the irs does it right is by way of discrepancy of lifestyle to your reported income
right, so if I drive around
You know Ferrari and on Thursday and I you know, I decide to take my bugatti out on friday
And the only thing that i'm filing taxes on is a mcdonald's salary, right?
This is a discrepancy, right? So it'll be up to enforcement, right?
I mean, I think like the reality like the reality that people
Underappreciate is that like the disintermediation will disrupt the way that regulation works. Yes
Like I don't think that what we have
There isn't to answer your question very directly, right? There is not a really great solution to it, right?
In fact anybody who's moved large sums of crypto in the crypto sphere
Know that like when you really get into the weeds of it and you start interacting with people like
It gets to be really really tricky to take and prove like the different income that you have, right? So
Um, there's you know, you interact with a centralized exchange and they're like well prove that you own this
Uh wallet and it's like well, how would you like me to do that?
um, like for for example, right and
Um, like there's still like very little set up around that I think that there's like solutions to it
But I think that ultimately
You know a lot of the things that you're you're talking about around like fat f f bar filings and stuff like that
Is around self reporting right the way it is currently in traditional finance and right?
You know, it'll be it'll be more heavily dependent on
Enforcement agencies and less dependent on them putting intermediaries under their thumb to make you comply
Okay, I got to go back to what michael was saying. I need to understand your point here michael
Um, are you saying like i'm really trying to understand what your point is there? Are you saying that it is?
Not only like reasonable but like expected that the government should have basically
Blanket surveillance over its citizens to make sure
Because if they don't then everybody would just be chaos and breaking the law. Is that your point?
Um, so if you ask me like my personal opinion is they should not have freaking oversight and we should self report and
freedom for everybody, okay
But you know, I I am around a while do I understand that change cannot happen from zero to one, right?
So even if I want it to be more free and less, you know control and less oversight
It's not gonna happen just because I wish it to happen, right? So there is a transition from where we are now
Which is full control. Honestly, like I can tell you a bit more later on
To where we would like to be right? So what i'm saying is
The transition how is that gonna happen? You know, so like right now they can and there is a program actually I found it
It's called exchange of information and bank deposits in international finance
Financial centers, which is actually a new kind of a newish regulation of five years or something
Where every bank on the planet has to report back to the citizens home country what the bank balance is, right?
So that's maybe something that's important
Okay, because they will basically know everything wherever you have money
So even if you drive a Honda civic, but then you have a few million in dubai bank
They will know that shit. Okay, and they will come and say what the hell you didn't report
So how do we go from this full control that they have right now?
us having more privacy basically
Because the state wouldn't want to lose the power they have, you know, that's how I see it
Who cares about the state power? I mean who cares why why give them that control, right?
Like I think there's a great example of this right now. I can have a brief
I can have a brief case full of cash in my house
And I can drive it across town and the bank doesn't need to know that I have cash that i'm handing it off to
somebody across the town like, you know, I think I think a lot of this is like
The technology is an upgrade in a lot of ways and don't let a national government
try to enforce national foreign or financial policy on a global network of money or goods or anything, right?
Like why give banks the power to inquiry encroach on that like?
Upgrade it right like we haven't had to have banks being these things in our lives forever
Like it's only been the last hundred years where they you have to go ask a bank permission to spend your own money
Ridiculous. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah, fuck that. So I agree. Fuck all of that. I fully agree
But how do we make it happen?
Think we're used to things just too used to it
We're too like, how do we accept this? How did how did the us go as an example where I live?
How does the us go from us, you know?
shooting the Brits in the face
like literally fighting a violent revolution
for over a two and three percent
Tea and paper import tax no income tax
The king wasn't charging us an income tax
It was just on if you imported tea or paper
You paid two or three percent on it and we went and we died for that
Our children died for that our families died for that and we we wanted our own freedom
We didn't want someone to tell us what to do and come take our earnings from us
and now I paid 54 in the united states and I sit here and I wear my american flag lapel pin on my suit every day and i'm
So proud to be an american. I'm like what and then I realized like what wait, what am I doing?
Like what is happening here?
Like my ultimate dream is to go into politics and and at the same time i'm so shameful of what the country has become
I mean, that's partially why I want to go into politics to try to change things
But anyways, it's just wild how we've gotten here and how we're also used to it. I think it's ray daleo
I think it's ray daleo cycles, right?
It's like the you know, it takes us will go down it will take a bit and then some other part of the world
Will will will rise with lower taxes and more, you know acceptance for you know, radical ideas or you know
For people like us basically. It's a cycle whatever, you know, it's just that
The ones that that have power don't want to give power and they want full control of your money and because it's not your money
Okay, you're using dollars. It's their money. They tell you what you can do with it
So you can't send a million immediately because they will call you they will want to know 50 million things
It's not your money. Okay, like crypto is your money
So it makes them ultra afraid and holy shit, right? So I don't know how to
I don't know how to get there, but I would love to have afraid of their citizens, right? They should be afraid. Yeah, exactly
Hey guys, that's a good thing
It feels like people getting something back when they've been getting things taken away from them for a long time
And I think that's the beauty of what this is, right? Like but then how do you get that kind of free flowing?
Elements of cash that are great with crypto
And I think that's what's super cool about seeing like what railgun other folks are doing where it's like, okay
Cool, like we're thinking about this problem from an angle of like how can you make you know for for everyday use?
How do you make it feel more like cash without having to have your life online?
I think that's the key thing with this stuff because there's a great example. Cash is an awesome example, right? Like, um, you know
The pendulum overall is is gonna swing guys. I think here's the beauty
of bad bad like government policy
Is that they will push and they will push and they'll push a little more and a little more and until eventually we break
That's what's gonna happen. We're gonna break and says and that might be that might be i'm not
Look, I don't I hope I pray that it's not violent that it's not, you know, some crazy stuff that goes down
I I also hope that the current financial system doesn't crash violently and then that's how bitcoin becomes, you know
World reserve currency. I hope it's a smooth and peaceful, you know
transition to this new system
And I think maybe that comes through just like people getting so sick of government corruption and crony capitalism
Not capitalism crony capitalism meaning government, you know corporation incest basically
but I think that what what probably what I really hope and what i'm really like really praying for and one of the reasons I
Probably won't renounce my citizenship even though it goes through my mind a lot
Is that the libertarian party gets stronger over time because people get sick of this this super, you know
powerful two-party system
Yeah, I think libertarians through through crypto and what
Crypto is making people think again
I think a lot of people who had been like kind of asleep and and not thinking about these things are thinking again about privacy
About sovereignty about property rights and I hope that uh,
libertarian the libertarian party gets a lot more traction moving forward and I think it will we just saw habir mele become
The first libertarian president of a of a non-third world country in a very very long time of argentina
And uh, I think you're going to see a lot more of that
Good point guys. Good point everyone. Um, i'm gonna actually change the topic here
So i'm going to throw a bit of a curve ball, but it is something that I believe
Authority cloud brought up earlier and
Since we have a bunch of privacy giga brains here. I just wonder what you guys think so
How do developments in blockchain analytics and ai impact the effectiveness of privacy features on the blockchain?
I'm basically asking whoever wants to answer this, you know
Is ai going to be able to come in and destroy any type of privacy?
Are you using the formal definition of analytics like a chain analysis trm, etc?
And we all are clearly like expedite the path that we're on right
I mean i was just you know, I think that it expedites the path that we're on right?
I mean like tools that help you like collate and collect like more expeditiously means that it
You know like, you know, it only runs in that direction harder and and faster, right?
I think the spirit of those products that I mentioned that were the formal definition of blockchain analytics and by the way partially
And implied as hard coded tools that government regulations now require which is why chain analysis and trm
Have so many government contracts is is used to fight financial crime?
Um, so part of it's you know, when you have been stolen from how to forensically follow the funds
How do you tie wallet entities to north korean hackers?
Uh becomes a matter of national security sometimes and a lot of the the rugs you guys have probably seen
A good percentage of them are actually
Operatives from the north korean government trying to fund their initiatives
So they hack you take your eth and then send it back to the government for them to be able to buy
Um, so that that's a hardcore
Reason for blockchain analytics and ai2 exists. I think obviously used nefariously against your own populace
Could be a bad thing obviously
But I just wanted to make sure people knew that that was the the spirit of some of these analytic companies and why they exist
And then using ai to fight crime. I think you know if you were the victim of a massive
Um, you know financial crime
I'm sure you'd be an advocate of using ai to find the guy who took your money and try to recover it
Yeah, I think you know the implementation of ai into some of these chain analytics
Tools is is definitely going to just accelerate the ability to you know parse and determine, you know where things are going. I think
There are I mean privacy in general is kind of like this cat and mouse game and you know
There's a spectrum of solutions that provide various levels of privacy depending on the use case
You know, I I think something I just happen to think about often just because it's um
It's something that's applicable to the the products that shade builds is
You know how users consider their anonymity sets and the various anonymity sets for the products that they're using and
You know as ai and chain analysis technology gets better and better have to consider the
uh, the implement sorry the implications of increasing your anonymity set and like
my first thoughts to this um
Just like my first thought on this would be it just becomes more expensive
to increase your anonymity set
I I don't think most people are really that worried about
Governing bodies, you know looking through their transactions or whatever. Um
Like I think it's a very small subset of people who are
On chain sleuths and analytics. Um, but for those who are you know, there's always going to be tools that are coming out
to help them increase that
Yeah a little bit away from the analytics side I I like what you're saying read in terms of like the individual on
Private digital identities and then what happens when you pass away, right? Like how what gets on automatically?
Teams that are tackling that, you know, hey, uh
You know, I passed away. I've got a ton of crypto
My wife has no clue what that seed phrase or anything is. So what kind of teams are tackling that?
You know, hey, I want to be
Keep myself private. It's safe. But when it happens every couple of months
We have a will product by the way, um, we built it as our first product. It helps people self-administer their will
Uh pass on their crypto. Um, it's you know, if they were
decentralized or centralized
Completely decentralized even if we were to go to business it will go and do
well, you set up a smart contract that
pre-approves assets from your own wallet into the beneficiary wallets based on the percentages and whatever requirements you set
After a period we use on chain oracles to verify death by length of time of inactivity
So that's like the big thing that people have to explicitly decide is what they're okay with
We've gone through so many different iterations to figure out like what considers like quote unquote an official death
Uh, we've just decided after a certain period of inactivity across all of your wallets
It just means you're you're either dead or you're dead on crypto
Anyway after that happens, you can just use that time like the user can say yes
Yeah, it could be 18 months
Even if I made a mistake, you know five years is good enough because even if yeah
Like if you literally disappeared off all your wallets
For like five years. That's a really big sign that either you quit crypto
Or you're you know, something bad happened to you
I've got some wallets. I haven't been thinking about all the
Years, but yeah coin wallets that come out of dormancy after, you know a decade or so
Blessy, but yeah, so something you said. Yeah, but your your family your family will need the money a bit earlier, right?
Then five years I guess so yeah, it depends on the time you said and it's not the perfect solution
But it was the best we can come with with the current yeah to be clear
I think it's a cool product
I was just curious about I mean i'm sure there are and I guess they could set it where it's like don't do anything
For 30 years or 40 years or whatever
Well, and then you set a check-in feature, right?
Like you just regularly check in before that time's up
Which you know, I think it's fascinating and I like it because it's one of the few ways that a regular individual can understand this
Which helps just onboard them into the whole system, right?
Like very few real world applications will any regular joe that I talked to in my family
But they'll understand that concept and so I like I like those products and you mix that in with with privacy and how that
You can't i'm assuming you can't use this with uh, like native bitcoin
Unfortunately not yeah, because the smart contract capabilities are still being developed as you guys all know, I think that's generally
Where well you have hash lock?
Half hash time lock contracts and things like that. I I've wondered if there's a way to do it with that by the way, I actually
Um, I I think there's probably a lot more people in the world that would want to leave bitcoin as inheritance, uh than eth
hot, you know shots fired I'm sure but um, yeah, I
I uh, you know, let's actually pin. I did an interview with kitko
uh, it was a great interview very controversial and I think the title is something like
The one crypto I would leave is inheritance
Nice. Yeah, just look up rock rock sacrias kitko
You should find it. It was a big one. It has to be a twitter post though
I don't there are two or three wallets. Uh, most of them being mpc
Uh actually have these sort of features where like if your wallet goes inactive for a while you can't um
Like the assets will get switched to another wallet. So basically you can have this proof of sort of death kind of
stuff built in i've actually seen a couple that also have um
Like if you if you know that you're gonna holiday for two weeks
You can actually stop your wallet from sending any transactions for two weeks
So if you're just leaving your ledger in the house somewhere, well these wallets don't need the ledger obviously
but if you're just leaving whatever wallet you want or whatever sort of uh
Device used in the house and you know that you're not going to be using that for at least two weeks
You can basically say okay
I'm not going to be doing that and they will just not broadcast anything to the actual blockchain for those two weeks
That's funny because as sick was talking earlier about how he got like attacked over the weekend and um,
You know this actually i've been
Uh attacked several times. They've never gotten anything because I have good object. It's a good luck. Keep trying. But um
It might have been both times, but I know one of the times for sure
This is these were a while back
But one of the times uh, I was on a plane when it happened
So they i'm pretty sure they knew that I was getting on a plane for, you know
Whatever five ten hours and that that I may not notice
And so I got sim swapped while I was on a while I was on a plane
interesting thing like uh freezing your wallet or
I guess I I don't that doesn't sound that useful to be honest
Like if you're going to be on vacation for two weeks because how would they use my ledger anyways?
Yeah, there must be something there that we could get creative with
Your sim got swapped. Uh while you're on a plane by and and basically they had access to
I mean you could have through your you know through your
provider you you could be you could buy things I guess you could uh,
Other than the calling I don't see what what what what is the benefit of that right?
Sim swapping. I mean so one of my friends, uh, michael turpin, um of transform
he got uh sim swapped and and with um, I forget who which which provider but
Uh, they got they got like 25 million from him. So I think he added on a centralized exchange and uh, they
I see I see I see I see yeah, it gets because telephonic actually is launching in brazil. It's it's uh, one of their um,
Telcos they own as well and it's I think it's something would be and uh, they're I think they're
Um using something where where they're going to be on uh, they're trying out a project
So which will be using blockchain for that for securing that those sim swap, uh, you know
Attacks as well. I mean if you don't use centralized exchanges, you're relatively safe
Like there's nothing there's nothing that they can get with my phone number period. So
Um, he by the way, interestingly because of the nature of how it was some inside job
Um, he actually sued and I think the lawsuit he won like 68 million or something
Um, now they they tried to appeal that so I don't remember if it uh, like what happened in the end
But he did win a lawsuit, uh for like much more than the actual amount hacked which was kind of cool
That's crazy. That's good. But guys don't don't use sms for for two two-factor authentication use a you know
Authenticator app like google authenticator or something like this and you will be way safer
Because they can't send you even if they send nobody will send you sms
Actually, if we don't set it up like that sms 2fa is a big lucky move
Just for everybody. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so just don't use it, right?
Then it's not gonna also make sure that your gmail account or whichever email is your main email
That that definitely doesn't have the phone number for 2fa as a as an option because it wants to get your email
That's it, right? They can reset everything. So that's something i've wondered about though. It's like
A two-factor or three-factor is not it's not that if you put two-factor
And I and I agree with you that sms two-factor is bad bad move
But if you put two-factor as that it's not worse than having no factor, right?
Like so having or one-factor which is just your password because if it's just your password
You need your password if it's password plus sms, you need password plus sm, so they would need to know your password
if you can just reset your account without password and and then
Uh only through sms. I don't think that's what happens when you turn on sms two-factor though
It's not oh now we're just going to make it a one-factor through sms, right?
No, no, they just log in with with the code that they get
To their phone and but they need a password as well
Because it's two-factor. Yeah
No, because then you just if they have the email you just forgot password that sends the how would they well
Well, how would your phone email?
It was that they would get it through your because they how would it get all that information, right?
Because if they have this they have no sim swap sim swap doesn't give them your your passwords or anything a sim swap just
Basically gives them like they it's it's as if now
Your sim card is in their phone. I understand. It's a new sim card
Yeah, and there's no info on it. It's just like I can call
password reset from your phone number
They have that number now so they can do a reset right as it's I think someone just mentioned just and you could do a reset
You know get get into things right and where we actually
Well, they could do that even if you didn't have sms two-factor set up, right?
If if that company allows you to reset through your text through text messaging or something
Then it wouldn't the sms two-factor what i'm saying. All i'm saying is that I think sms two-factor is still better than just one factor
Just get a pineapple. I mean, yeah, I might be wrong
So that you can track all of the the keystrokes and then whenever you enter in your password
Maybe it'd be a day later or even if you do auto sign, but what'd you say start that over michael?
This is a macro stuff but get a pineapple router so that if you're close enough vicinity to some of the devices
It'll start overtaking some devices
Once you monitor the basically you monitor the uh
Which lines are being committed and then basically if i'm able to get to your home network then it goes into let's say if I
Am able to target the fridge right your fridge is connected to wi-fi the fridge then can
It kind of spreads for different devices
But it eventually spreads over to your home network and then into your uh, let's say your phone and you're logging into facebook or something
Once you enter in the password, it shows on the screen line and the command line
Uh what you enter in as a password. So it may take a day or two, but pineapple routers are scary, yo
I did notice it was a little weird and I was trying to think through it the other day, but uh trying to log into uh
On a tv and it just said oh just be on spotify and play a song from your phone and we can log you in
So like don't put a password in don't put a code in just if your song my phone was playing
Spotify now my tv logs into spotify now. I don't know if that means like now spotify has access to anything
But that was a little weird to me. It's either bluetooth or home network, right? It was home network. Yeah
Yeah, so it just pushes it through the home. Yeah, it's broadcasting. It's just broadcasting in the same network. That's fine
It's not insecure necessarily. That's what I was figuring
I think what he meant is if somebody else that is should not be on your home network
Somehow get your wi-fi password and they can decrypt the wi-fi signals and then they can look into the packet
You don't you don't quite complex, but it's possible you have the wi-fi password
So like uh to to get the packets you just need to get like uh
Yeah, but they're encrypted right because uh, every every wi-fi even at home is encrypted
So you can't even if you get the packages complete gibberish. Yeah, but it depends so it's not that simple
It depends on the model as well, right?
So like some of them are yeah, but dps2 everybody uses that it's like standard on every route
I would hope that these days like everything like but everything is not encrypted these days, right?
I did see a new feature by the way and
No, it is it is it is like even all the internet that no browser opens the htp website anymore without giving you 50 million
But everything is not like it's not fully encrypted in the way that in the best way always so like
Like your isp can see your data, right? They're not you're not end to end. You're not you're not getting past them, right?
They can see everything you're doing if you're not
Yeah, they cannot they cannot see it because it's encrypted with the certificate. Uh, it's impossible for them to see it
They can only route the the routing information is not encrypted. Obviously the ip address where you want to go
But the packages are all encrypted
The providers have that information and they uh, they basically have to be visible to them right so they can actually
No, it's not no, it's not i'm sorry. It's not i'm a tech guy, right?
I know exactly how it works
I can tell you it is absolutely not visible to them because otherwise they would see your your bank information and everything
That's crazy, right? So it is not in htp you encrypt the url
And you encrypt all the packages in the body of the hp request
And the only thing that is public is the address where you have to send the message towards
Of course, that's public because it has to be routed through the whole internet internet
But then once it arrives there
It is gibberish unless the other side can decrypt it
Which is the handshake that happens when you open any kind of htps connection. So no, they cannot see it
There were definitely times in the past. I don't know if something's changed
The break around is if it's on a home network, I don't need to have a password
I could just find an unsecured device and that unsecured device is basically it's like having wait
Wait, wait, wait, michael. Hold on. Hold on. You're you're going back to the first topic
They interrupt first we interrupted with one topic now. We're interrupting back, too
So let's hold on let's stay on let's try not to jump around too much
Okay, this is an important one. I think for I think I this very interesting to me is
Can your your your internet company or your phone company?
Wherever whoever's giving you your data can they see what you're doing?
Yes, otherwise why why use a vpn I guess then 100% they can yes 100
I'm not you know, i'm not i don't want you to argue with him. I'm sure you haven't but we really have a telco these
customers for over 15 years 20 years some of them actually and we're we're delivering these
applications to the mission critical and we
understand that there is a
100 you can actually get the data if they wanted to i'm not saying that they they are
Uh doing that but they they have access to it. I'm sorry. They do. Yeah
They i'm sorry. They don't have access like please prove it to me
Show me how they can have access because it's a handshake. It's an end-to-end encrypted connection
And only people who can decrypt it and I can tell you who can do it
The people who have the root certificate
The first certificate ever created which is
NSA, right they can do it because they have the fucking certificate, but you cannot just go to your local isp
And they cannot open it the operators provide the access
I think there's there's different levels to this right like where, you know, there's the there's do they know the metadata, right?
Like versus what the actual contents are right?
Like and if it's in an encrypted, like they don't know the contents but they know
I made a call to somebody else and sometimes that's all you need to know
You don't need to know what color
Right, like like that's kind of um, the route. Yeah, I understand. Yes
The root certificate the body's not anything right it only signs the records
right, and i'm not sure that like TLS or like wpa type stuff is really like
What's in scope of like what we should be talking about here
But suffice it to say like there isn't a binary here of can see and who cannot see
Right. It really fucking depends and we could probably spend another three hours talking about it. The interesting topic, right?
I'm very interested in it. I want to know what it was just it was just mentioned because
Because I had to prove to you guys that it's not
So that's why I mentioned these technologies
But you can please go and watch youtube videos about this. It is not possible
Unless you have a freaking root certificate and you have to be the fucking nsa or something similar in order to do that
Otherwise it might be different banking would be super insecure
Because if any idiot on the isp can it just some some some rookie what's called the intern could just decrypt
Because you don't have access to that
There's a they don't have access to that. Of course not there. There's you know
Anyway, so you can go to rest asleep that they cannot not like only five people on this planet can decrypt this stuff
Okay, like and that's it. So you can sleep. All right, go ahead emg. I want to hear you can I want to hear your
Actually, it's a great debate
What is what is from me? It's it's basically that the data that they have is is currently
Something that they can use uh to to locate yes
They can actually find what what kind of data you're using but what what they're unable to do
Is is have that connection of like what you're using it for where are you spending it and so on?
Uh things and if they do if we do have connected the blockchain, uh, they're gonna everything's going to be on
Uh, they'll have the access to the wallets. They'll have access even if it's not custodial fine
But they'll be able to go and see what products and services that you're you're buying what what you know
In essence, they'll they'll have so much control
uh that it's going to be difficult for uh, you know for us to actually be able to
Um have privacy in essence just because you know, give an example
So if I search, you know, like super gay porn or something
Um, are they can they see that or do they just see that i'm like on google or like that? I searched on
Maybe pornhub or something or what do you think they can see they can see the websites that you visit
They just and so they can see that you're like talking to like data center x right exactly which hosts websites
Yeah, but they don't see what you search like what page they don't see what you search for because that's encrypted
But they see that you were on google and yes, that's something they see
What will blow your mind is that uh, it's the amount of data that advertisers can see
So when when you see when you mentioned if you watch super gay porn, uh, so
The advertisers michael gave a thumbs up. They'll probably know it because of the
cookie market and because of how well yeah, I wasn't advertising I mean
And you have to look at the network request, right like the network request and the metadata around that call contains
information about the webpage title or the url passes in
Especially for advertising we used to do this all the time where you'd pattern match like macros that would populate parts of that
Uh that url string to include information about the page that you're on
So like this is it's super nuanced, right?
Like you can you can have two sites that you know have porn on them
And and if one is doing a bunch of hacky stuff for ad tech
They can be passing information into the two your the two pages have the same content on them
But the url strings that are passed have information that then can be tied to like user traffic that goes to the site
It's like I mean they give us a drone strikes, right?
like they could do a signature strike based off metadata and get enough of a
Certainty around a phone number being around an area
They didn't have to have a picture of the dude from the phone or any of his information on the phone
But they just knew it was his so that's enough proximity to like do in action, right? Like and that's kind of where the
Yeah, i'll give you guys something funny in uh, april in 2000
Metallica filed a lawsuit against the file sharing company napster
So napster was similar to like limewire and then some of the other services where you start downloading songs
uh, they sued over 300 000 people
for uh for infringement basically basically having a copy a digital copy of their copyright
And it's like a reverse class action
Yeah, the one person shooting 300 000 people
The the way that they were able to do it was because they were able to see uh, you know, they were able to
Get the information from napster by suing napster and then from suing napster
They were able to track and uh and locate who are going to be the streaming providers of uh of the downloads
um, so they didn't even have to go to the isp and everything to get that information so like
I think it depends on countries as well because some countries have a little bit more of a
Of a privacy act especially for uh, like I know europe has a more stricter privacy act while the us is a little bit more lax
You know a little bit more lax on their rules and everything
So that you know, if i'm downloading a torrent like hey, I want to download this song
Or i'm i'm watching a movie. That's on
What was it mega share was what was it that was back then like watching a movie on mega share like me?
Oh, no, I mean, but he brought up a really good
He brought up a really good point
like I think it's one of those things that makes privacy a really hard thing to talk about because
A lot of it depends on where you're standing in the world, too
Like there's there's fundamentals around privacy like that, you know, people say privacy is a human right or whatever
but when you're actually trying to like
operate a business around this
Um, you have the west where like the us
Privacy is kind of defined by marketing and companies
Laws and things like that
But then in europe like with gdpr there is a very clear definition of what user data is
And and so you have to comply with that if you're doing business in europe, even if you're an outside company
But like there's no global definition for what privacy actually means and so companies like, you know apple and others
You know lots of companies are starting to market with privacy now, but like
But the it's kind of a slippery weird squishy thing where you know
There's no hard set fast rule around what privacy actually is defined as
And so you're going to see companies that are kind of putting lipstick on a pig in a lot of ways like um
Where like I mean like google did this right like they they basically came out. Um,
A year or two ago two years ago, I think and they said oh privacy is a fundamental
Thing that goes into every decision we make or something like that, which is just laughable
Um, but but it is what it is, right? Like uh, but but
Say that though at least are you saying it's just total bullshit they're lying. So so that's why it's laughable if you push google ads
I was I mean, I think you can do any data set or for users, right? You want to look at here for?
Hold on michael. I uh, luke was on a pretty good rant there. I want to hear the rest of that
Just one second michael. Sorry
The tricky part is that like privacy is going to mean different things in different parts of the world
Which it makes it hard to to create unless you're building off first principles, right? Like which is just like
What you give to the world from your product is a choice that you make?
Um, and how you're you're you're treating your users information, right?
Like and how much you're actually going to require from them to do the thing
and that's kind of where you have to operate from because
privacy means different things to different people as far as like running a business goes and and unfortunately, I mean like
The value flow of the internet relies on business to operate, right?
and so it makes it really interesting with web 3 because
So much of the value is back to the users and and back to the daks like there's the there's all these different types of
Considerations but but even in the web 2 space
Defining what privacy actually means really depends on what jurisdiction you're in
Um, and and then where your business is located and where it's doing business
so it's just a really weird space right now like to kind of navigate but I think like
Tackling the stuff on first principles like okay
Like are you building something that's going to respect users and then building business that can work off of you know
You know giving the users there
Not having to not have are you going to go behind the users back and do something or are you going to be up front with them?
And let them make a choice. Like it's really that simple with a lot of this stuff, but like
It gets complicated along the way, but I think that like for people that are building
It's that simple in a lot of in a lot of respects
In a lot of ways. I look at this similar to some other things like an example is like freedom of speech
Should government be there that the question kind of becomes?
Uh, like with constitutional, you know
Okay is is the point that we have protections from the citizens against the government?
Because that's what that's what the first amendment is
Do you believe that it's that yes, we have protection ourselves against our government?
trying to stop speech and censor and should we now ask also government to protect our freedom of speech
And maybe with private companies my my libertarian
Instincts always tell me be skeptical of asking the government for help with anything because they'll take advantage and then they'll just have a monopoly on it
Basically, they'll they'll they'll stop other people from doing something, but then they are allowed to do it. Uh, so
Should it be private company luke i'm curious what you think
Should this be a private company thing where the free market decides by people using products that have good, you know privacy
Focused or should the government step in and make laws that protect the consumer?
I think there are laws that protect consumers, right? Like I think a lot of this stuff
Ends up being like how much are
Your how how how how much are you gonna like there's enough laws in my opinion
I mean in my own personal opinion, right?
Like like there are there's regulations against fraud the laws against theft laws against a lot of things and a lot of these
Bad actors are just doing crimes that there are laws for um, I think I think you know
A lot of this comes down to okay
If the tool doesn't exist that can respect the user's privacy and do the accounting right create the tool
Then give people the option because right now if you're a developer and you're not savvy on privacy stuff
The options that are out there are all privacy hostile for users
Like and so this is one reason why I came to brave was because they were the only people that were actually trying at the time
This was like 2016 like there were not there were very very very few companies that were actually like saying
Okay, it was either you block everything
And then and then there's no business or companies were starting to say, okay
Well, you block it, but we'll let some stuff through right like and you can make pennies against the user's choice
And still track them, but then you know, there was nobody saying like look, let's just make a privacy work with business
Like um, and so that's one of the things like
We're trying to do at brave
But it's it's awesome to see other people here trying to do this too with web3 because it absolutely needs to happen
There's just a lack of choice and practical choices
For developers and I don't think the government needs to be involved at all the government's role is to to go after the laws
I mean, there's some areas where there'll need to be things that will need to be regulated with time
But but but the security laws were written in the 1930s, right? Like like it doesn't there's this really
I think it kind of was a backslide and slippery slope from like when patriot act and all these things started getting thrown around
Is that people feel like there has to be some
overarching government rule when there are so many laws already like
Think about have your startup right in in web3 and you're trying to make a web2
Competitive competitive business like and and I can speak from this one experience
Think about the barrier to entry that you have to do right now
Like you have to have how many law firms do you have to have?
To to do a startup in this space right now
Like how many because of this uncertainty
But also because just it's just whack like like you shouldn't have to have to deal with like being a legal expert a accounting expert
Blah blah blah blah blah just to make products that people want to use it's insane
Like and it's just because like of this uncertainty right like and and I don't think that new laws are going to do it
I think that you just have to have like
I don't know like it is growing pains too with new technology
Like there's always going to be growing pains and but I think that as a society
There's an entire generation that's coming up now that didn't live without the internet that it doesn't even realize that
They have a right to their own privacy
Like this is where this is this is the effect of having you know
This mass proliferation of tech and especially when you know, the the incentives are aligned the wrong way, right?
And so I think it's it's on everybody that's building in this space
But especially folks that are talking on this group right now
Like we're building tools that will give developers choice and give users choice and that's why it's so important
That that private that's why people who know about privacy should give a shit enough to build about it, right?
It's just going to be easy for people to adopt and if you can do that
The byproducts and the value ads of good privacy are abundant
like we can go out like and i'm not shilling my own stuff here, but i'm just saying it so we work on growth here is that like
Because we block all the third-party junk that happens on every page load your pages load faster. It's a cleaner experience
It's less bandwidth. It's all these beautiful things that um people
Enjoy as users their usability wins, right? Like and I think that that's not just limited to browsing, right?
like I think there's a lot of like
Bloat in this space because there's a lack of privacy and I think that while
Things like adding encryption and and figuring out solutions to some of these problems is going to be tricky
I think that there are going to be a lot of benefits for
Developers and end users when you don't have to pump so much junk in the air
Just to like do a transaction like like if you think about ad tech, right?
Like one of the reasons why it's so inefficient is you've got five different companies all tracking a single
Loaded an ad on it and then you've got five companies tracking the other one and the other thing and the other thing
And it's so madly inefficient, right?
Like that that when you actually improve privacy by blocking that crap you get a page that loads faster
Okay. Now, let's figure out a way to make the accounting work and to serve an ad locally that doesn't require us to have the entire
Ad tech blob know who I am and what i'm eating for lunch
You know what I mean or where i'm eating a lunch at you know in the context of this conversation. Okay, mr
Cindy said yesterday. Hey, like i'm gonna order a salad
Do you want one? I was like, uh, I might maybe I order something else. Maybe I will and then she got a ad
Uh saying if you order for two
People if you do two orders will give you a ten dollar discount and I was like, holy shit
Is that like as targeted as you could possibly be?
So like like the two order thing was weird. I was like, wait, what?
That's exactly what we were talking about ordering two separate things
It was really weird because why would I over eat your ever like ask you if you want to order two separate things?
That's like a weird question
What's that after you've been talking about super good porn your ads later will be
I'll send you all the good links darren. Don't worry. Remember the central austin
The google building was right across the street. What I did was I targeted developers in the building
So I geofenced it to just the building for the ads
But then I also added it to where um it within the search history of of the individuals that they were either looking at linkedin
Job like job searching websites like monsters zip recruiter and stuff like that and added it added it as a tag
And then I also added it to the starbucks that was local that was nearby as well
So that anyone that was going from location a to location b if they end up in location b
Automatically gets blasted with all the ads and I made it to ad spend to be the max
Because I knew developers needed coffee, right?
And so they were able to come over to the conference and at that time we were able to get like 15 different types of
Like 15 other developers and google actually messaged us and was like, hey
We noticed that you're targeting the google building and then you're also targeting, you know, which is freaking smart
Right. I I used to have to go to like a bunch of like ad tech
Conferences that google would put on like this was back in like 20 2014 15 or whatever
And they were literally like the google people where we'd get on stage and you'd have people talking from the different parts of the stack
But like they were usually literally using an example like that where they're saying, you know with this new
Hyper-local geotargeting you can do because you know google uh android and and you know maps all of that
Runs through the root the root of the phone, right? Like um, and and google's google
Um, they're like we can we can target every starbucks in the us within, you know
X meters of the location with your message or whatever and it's spooky man
like and this is why like I mean people don't realize that that this is why kind of
shifting the goalposts away from like
Do you have to sync all of your shit on the cloud?
Like what you're putting so much trust on these providers to do things correctly
And I know just from working in tech for a really long time. It's never as clean or as uh secure as people think it is
And and so like how much of this can we start to do locally on the clients?
Like how much of this can you encrypt locally if you're going to do it in the cloud
Like make sure it's encrypted before it gets there
And then like how much of this can we actually offload on the client these devices are insanely powerful now
Compared to what they used to do. I mean that's one of the things that we try to do at brave was like, okay
It's not pretty but it works like and it can be useful for people
But like why do we have to rely on all these different cloud services to match off of fragments in?
Space instead of when your whole device has everything on it
Just put the matching locally on the client and then you don't have to leak anything and brave doesn't even know because we don't want to know
right like and these are these are these are the decisions i'm talking about like the companies need to make whereas like
Do do you really like can you can you say I don't if I don't need to collect something?
I'm not going to collect it if something comes and gets my servers like are my users at risk?
Or are we are are we okay?
Because we didn't try to collect anything to begin with and these are conscious decisions that businesses need to make and sometimes they're more or
Less compatible, but if you are going to collect and make sure it's encrypted before you do like these are these are designed decisions
And and I think that the more people talk about them
and the more that builders like build with those kinds of principles the more this problem starts to solve itself in a better way than
right now where you've literally got a developer doing a jail for trying to make better privacy tools like because it's a threat to
Bringing it to the practical level is like super important
But you have to have people that give a shit and I think that that's why i'm stoked to be here with folks
That that care that are building tools that care about this stuff
I think brave is kind of proof actually that it goes against something
I've been kind of thinking and saying for a long time. I think a lot of people think is that
generally people don't give a shit about privacy, but I think the fact that brave has what you said, I think 70 million
monthly users is somewhat of a testament to people actually
This is where this is what one thing like I mean like when when I first came to work here
it would people looked at me sideways because like
Who cares about privacy, right? Like but when you get it up to 67 million 67 million monthly active users
Are moving with their feet to something whether they?
Directly are privacy advocates or not. It's irrelevant
It's that there's an experience there
That comes by building with users and privacy in mind first and it's not something that has to be
And it's not necessarily unique to brave either. We just are like really taking a risk building this stuff because
Nobody else the browser is a user's agent, right?
Like it's the last line of defense between you and everything you interact with on the web
And then there are there's apps that you install on devices too. You can get to that level
But but should we like our kind of position is that the web's open and great like
How much of this can we do through the browser like when and if you're building the browser for users great like like?
Then you're starting with the right principles
But like I love everybody should be building this way like I think it comes down to like
Who whose ass are you covering when you're building stuff and and and unfortunately, you know, it's not as simple for some businesses
but for us, it's like dude, like
If you're building for the right reasons and you can build a good experience out of that people will come to that and I think
Like it's not something that has to be specific to brave at all
Like um, I would love it if we had competitors
A lot of competitors that did this more competitors the better like because right now it's a handful of stuff
Like we have a search engine
and if you think ad tech is a small world search engines are even smaller like there's google and and bing and
A lot of the western competing search engines are all built on top of bing
And then you've got some other independent ones
But brave's like one of the biggest independent search indexes
Out there like but it's a small circle of people and if you think about the amount of volume that goes through queries
yeah, so basically like we we
We acquired a company called
clicks are coming from clicks that basically built a way to anonymously index from users that opt in to
submitting, you know searches and
anonymously to to build an index
It's kind of a different way as opposed to having to go crawl and scrape the entire web which
At this point any new search engine is going to be so far behind
If they try to do it the way that google did because the incumbents are so much better
You're you're you're probably going to lose. Um, but but the folks that uh at clicks at the time
They had a project called tailcat and we we acquired them and now they're working with us a brave a couple years ago
But but they had developed a better model that could work with a browser and and and basically like index
Build an independent index and so they did that and and um and users can opt into this now
um on on brave search that they want to contribute to the index where there's no pressure to right like and um, and yeah, like it's
It is a hard market to crack into but I mean it just shows you like okay
these are big problems on a bunch of different levels and um, but but
Brave shouldn't be the only company trying to do this and we're not but but I mean like
It's it's inspiring to see other companies really taking privacy seriously because we need to be doing it more as a society anyway
Yeah, I can say a lot of our telco. Uh, many years consultants, you know
They know how things work and then what the telcos could actually do and so on they they they all of them. Uh,
Majority of them, uh use brave, you know, and and that's actually nice to see it
So so we'll call the show all all the roads lead to to brave, right?
I want to kind of give some education for everyone that's that's listening. So
Um, I think you know with all the the gator brains here
Maybe we can get some interesting
Uh education so I want to ask you guys how can individuals protect their privacy when using cryptocurrencies?
especially in the face of increasingly sophisticated surveillance techniques now
If I want to go left to right, maybe you can give something super simple that people can easily start today
but you know, like the even someone brand new could
Could implement fairly easy and then maybe something that's unique or
Something a little bit more
Complicated but but I I would like an easy one and a hard one. So, um switch up. I'm just going left or right
Uh, i'm just gonna go left to right here luke, uh, you actually you're actually um
First here, so we'll go we'll go from you and then michael and so on
Oh, and also I want to shout out that beer and weed is here
And also real world asset world joined us. I'm not sure if they jumped in on any
Conversations recently I've had there's a bunch of uh pins in the background. So
Kind of was mia for a second, but luke take it away
Is just gonna say to switch a browser to the brain
Michael you you got something for us. Sorry guys. I was having a technical issue there
But actually I have to jump off. I really want to thank you guys for having me on
Um, I really appreciate it and uh, and there'll be tune in next week. Thanks everybody
Sounds good. Look, thank you for joining us. It's always great to have you here and uh, pick your brain
Which michael oh my bad michael uh gwen
so one of the things that you should do is
Never use the same wallet ever again
So I think satoshi mentioned this as well in the beginning portions of uh, bitcoin is
Always utilizing a brand new wallet. Um, even if you're doing one transfer
Just making sure that your your wallets aren't going to be connected and stuff like that
Another thing is that's that's a lot harder with ethereum than bitcoin. Well, not not really
I mean so like for ethereum, so
Okay, so with ethereum having a separate wallet for each one just place on some metamask
But of course it transfers swaps, right? So for for bitcoin you have utxos that have uh deposits and everything but
uh, and it has always have to have unspent so
It could be a little bit more bitcoin is a little bit more secure in terms of having an unspent
ethereum is a little bit more complex, uh in trying to
Trying to create privacy of it
But like you're looking at okay
So i'll give you an example the first the first iterations of like, uh when polygon kind of like came out, right?
Polygon came out people were using polygon and having all the transactions on there
But nothing shows up on e on ethereum for mainchain
so I think chain analysis was trying to
To to make it to where uh, the two bridge, you know, basically two chains bridged together, uh afterwards
So like the validators would actually have to settle a lot unless you bridge back over to ethereum
Like all your transactions can stay on on uh on polygon
To have it to where your I know there's a few companies that are trying to do this and tornado cash would have been probably the
The perfect one in the beginning phase
Was to have it to where it was a non-custodial, you know aggregator of liquidity
So like if you're sending in eth
What happens is that it stays within the tornado cash contract and then afterwards you can be able to redeem it from another
Another separate wallet which then kind of breaks the the link
Um, I think that people were starting to use centralized exchanges as one part of it as well, especially ones that didn't have kyc
Um, those were like the you know back in the day like bitmax finance like every basically almost every exchange
Um would be able to break the barrier. So you would go on the exchange, you know deposit eth swap out and get
You know bitcoin and then it would kind of like technically break the trail and stuff
I don't know if I should say too much but I guess in terms of privacy just making sure that you're uh, you're
You know, you're not revealing your seed phrases and trying to utilize as many different wallets as much as possible
To be private if you really wanted to be private you'd you'd go on a sex swap to manero
And then go on the other sex
Deposit that manero and swap to whatever asset you want to hold long term and then pull it off
There's a there's also another method called the eth and wrapped eth method
I don't want to get too much into uh
Too much into some of these conversations. I think michael knows what i'm talking about exposing himself
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I think these are
We should not be shy to talk about these things because privacy matters and it's um
It's ridiculous that we have to be scared to talk about how to be private. We're not terrorists. We're not
Of privacy isn't illegal of seeking privacy is not illegal. It's the opposite
It is our our human right whether you think that's god-given government given
Human fought for whatever. This is an important fundamental right
But I understand why you're afraid of talking about things
but some of them use those tactics and I I don't want to have the wrong impression of it, but
um, one of the things that I am, you know helping to kind of create is a cross-chain non-custodial privacy aggregator
Which is gonna make it to where you can swap assets between chains without, you know, it's just one transaction
So like that it is a little bit of a scary side to to kind of like, you know
Public can say that i'm working on this and they're like, oh like what happens to tornado cash?
They got a lot of technicality of like having it to where it's like. Oh, it's a custodial even though it's a smart contract
So like just just you know privacy tech has been always
You know pushed down by by by entities and everything
But I think for for privacy it is it is really really needed and i'm so happy that brave was on here earlier as well
Uh, because like for me whenever I switched over to brave
it's like there's all there's all these different functionalities of like you can have it to where it's blocking cookies that cross off of different websites and
and you know for me if I don't want to be targeted by advertisers, especially because I i've seen how I can target people with ads and
It is a little bit of a scary thing to where I can
If you look if you really really look through the advertiser portal on google
You can see a lot of analytics a lot a lot of analytics
Even like phone types be like hey
I want to target only the people that have still have iphone 7s
Because they're probably going to be 50 years old, right?
And then they're going to fit within this class. It's the cheaper marketing method if I didn't just targeting that iphone
But yeah for in terms of on chain just making sure that you're not interacting with you know
contracts and and going to websites that are
A little sketchy if they if if a website tells you to connect a wallet right away
Uh double think that i'll say probably quadruple think that before you connect your wallet
If a transaction pops up right away get out of there
Just just just make sure actually can I add something to that because I think it's super important what you're saying
So there is this security concept that is
You know explained by some youtubers and I really agree with that actually
Where you you have your you have several layers of security, right where you have your hardware wallet
Whichever you like. Yeah, uh, and that is not connected to anything ever, you know, you're never connected to anything, right?
So it's just completely offline basically
I'm kind of and then when you want to interact with a smart contract and with a dapp
Dex whatever then you send money to let's say metabask or zango wallet or whatever wallet you're using software wallet
You interact and everything you connect it
But then you send the funds back to the hardware wallet, which is not connected to absolutely anything
And that kind of people don't get that right?
I think if you could if you just split those two things
You already way safer than than before and and let me say something controversial as well
Because I mean you guys are smart, you know and all you get what i'm saying, but most people
They will still be better off
Using coinbase or kraken. I swear to god, okay, because
Right, but depends who you are, right? If you're my mother it's better to use coinbase, right?
If you are like you guys here in the room, I guess you get the idea of the wallets and everything, yeah
When when rock introduced me to bitcoin and crypto he was like bro
Just get a paper wallet and you know, like this is you know, it's it's could be totally offline and everything
It was like it was like a few hundred bucks. I was like a little bit pissed but
Yeah, yeah in my defense. You've also lost hardware wallets
Yeah, okay. I lost hardware wallets because I hide them
Michael has a strategy where to not spend his crypto he gets
Really drunk and then hides his ledger
And then can't find it even when he's looking for it
Hey, but that might mean it means it worked
If that's success like whenever I found it again, I was like, oh I got some extra crypto
Michael's maybe a couple years behind now for me, but i've got a better option. Uh, so i've got a two-year-old currently that um
I've got like a drawer that keeps some ledgers in he managed to go into that
Uh replaced one of the ledgers with a crisp
And a front a french fry for for people that don't
Took your ledger out of the drawer and and put back a french fry as if you would not notice
Fair trade the ledger was replaced with a french fry
And then yeah, he got ledger swapped I couldn't I couldn't find that for like three weeks
Um, he'd managed to have no idea how he managed it, but he managed to get that from
Into the car and then into the push chair that we only leave in the car
And like a little perch in there. So yeah, I find that just written around it like three weeks later. So yeah
You know what? I have actually lost
A long time too where I just hide it
So good and I know where it is
But it's still hidden so I don't want to explain how but it's still hidden so well
That i'm searching for hours can't find it
Uh, and then finally found it, uh, like maybe six months later
You want to hear a method that I I use sometimes and it sounds a little scary if you're inexperienced
But so please don't do it
But what what I used to do is that I would send a transaction and leave it in the mempool
With very very low gas so that it's almost impossible to send so like in the the wallet still shows that it's you know
It's sending a transaction. It doesn't clear on the blockchain
Um, so technically the wallet the funds are still within your account
But it's it's you know, it's pending a send now if ethereum ever gets down to one gway
I have a lot of transactions that are going through
That is immensely sketchy, but amazingly ballsy. Wait, what is the point of that though?
So the point yeah the point of that is like let's say if ethereum does go down so like I then remove the wallets
So I remove the seed phrase like I I do not save the seed phrase
Right from some of these wallets
So I know for for there is going to be brief moments of time in history save the seed phrase of the new wallet
Yeah, so the the new wall is the seed phrase that I save the old wallet
I throw away the seed phrase now if the gas doesn't go down to that low
I mean i'm not placing like 100, you know, like like like 100 ETH or something like that
I'm placing like small amounts in quantities that are uh pending in the mempool that
Are at one gway and whenever okay?
I'm not sure if you could do this with ETH but but with bitcoin
I'm pretty sure you could push that transaction through is that even as a non-wallet owner by
Creating I believe another transaction
That has or you might need to be that wallet owner i'm not sure you can you can create another tracked transaction
bb or whatever they call it
The two transactions like the miners look at the two transactions together. I don't remember how you do this
It's about aggregate block
But you need to be the same guy
It's about the total amount of transaction rewards and in the block
So if I have a transaction that's going to reward you like a penny
But i'm paired with three transactions that are going to reward you like seven hundred thousand dollars and i'm in the same block
My transaction is going to go through as well. So just pray you didn't quit
How do you get that one transaction to be linked to the new transaction? I can't remember there is definitely
I'm not sure how you do that from a technical perspective
I mean, i'm not sure if you'd have to initiate it or like get a friend to initiate it
But if you're making if you're building your own block you can put it in there
I think you take the second that I think you take the receiving address
And from that address you send a transaction
You like you chain it. I think something like that michael go there is a there is an identifier. Yeah, it's called a non
So you can use that right? So yeah, so basically there is an identifier
You can just use the same one and then the the note or the minor or the note will understand
Ah, you want to that's the same identifier will replace
The new one with the old that's actually how you can cancels transactions
So yeah, every every transaction you do basically gets given a number which is yeah
But michael just mentioned which is a nonce
So if you like send the first transaction from a wallet that has one
If you don't use enough gas and then you want to go in and replace that transaction what you do is you
Like go into metamask advanced customized transaction nonce
Make a new transaction. It can be anything you want
and then just edit the nonce at the sort of gas stage and then
Transaction with more gas or whatever it has to be more than the initial one if it hasn't been picked up yet
That one gets picked up and you can you can replace
The original transaction, but that is literally how metamask cancels transactions. What it does is it sends a
Zero gas transfer to yourself
Or zero zero like ethermatic or whatever transfer to yourself
But with more gas than the original
But it has to be the same nonce because you can't leapfrog you can't have nonce one versus nonce two
Yeah, exactly. But I think well, I think with with uh with bitcoin you could probably have uh,
I'm, not too sure but you could probably have it to where different nonces are
Or well actually no because then the first transaction shows
Uh, because then the second one might not be approved because of the first one
I think uh, no, they only have a thing in bitcoin called rbf replaced by fee and I think it kind of does that
You could just put a new transaction with a higher fee and then it replaces the old one
So long as people realize you can't double send this is actually a good thing for people to know
You can uh double spend a bitcoin transaction. That's uh, that's uh
Unconfirmed a lot of people will take unconfirmed transactions. Someone sends you some money you say, okay, I see it. Uh, you know and
Cool, but uh, if it hasn't confirmed
They they actually can pull it out of the mempool with with like rbf enabled wallets you could end and um
That and that can be you can you can receive a transaction from someone that's unconfirmed and and it can
Accept it if it's not an rbf enabled transaction
So like some wallets have rbf enabled transactions some do not
So if someone sends you and you don't trust them and they sent you an rbf enabled transaction
That means they can double spend it if they if you don't sit and wait 10 minutes or 20 minutes or five minutes
Whatever for the confirmation. Yeah, which is why which is why exchanges
Take a bit of time, right to approve your your deposit because they don't want to get screwed later
well, that's for rbf and that's also for in case there's any reorg ever which or like just
like basically if sometimes
Two people what happens is this doesn't happen that often in bitcoin because the blocks are so long
But it happens quite a bit in ethereum
Um is if two blocks if two people find the block reward at the same time
Which often does happen they find it within such a close
proximity like within milliseconds or whatever that
Let's say one miner broadcasted transactions and a and a bunch of people are now
They're building the next block off of that
Miners transactions and then a bunch of other people are building the block off of some other miners
Transaction or the other miners transaction because two found it at the same time. So now both of these chains are in a race and whichever
Miner has the next miner who finds the next block that miner that becomes that the the dominant chain and the other chain dies
Um, so it's like a mini the longest longest chain wins actually longest chain wins is quite an important concept
But by the way, this cannot happen with proof of stake. That's what I was thinking. I don't know
Yeah, i'm not sure on that because proof of stake is different. But on on proof of work
Yes, that that can definitely you're sure that it cannot happen on proof of that. Is that no
because because proof of stake is
No proof of stake, uh, basically chooses the next one based on how much stake they have
And it's it's it's clear who is the next guy so there's like that there's kind of a central
Like they agree on it sequencer, but uh central
Wait, how is that possible though?
How could you have a central person but but they are agreeing they agree on
You you you basically you get you get to to be the next one to mine a block based on how much stake you have
So because then you can lose the stake right if you fuck this up
So you you basically you get more often you you you get to mine more blocks or write more blocks
The more stake you own in the network
Of course, it's not like you will always be the chosen one if you have the because there is a randomizer, right?
This is working on that but on proof of work if both find the block at the same time, which can totally happen
Then then then that that can be the case that uh, you know
They write the block at the same time and then who and then the next one the next miner has to choose which chain
It wants to append its block two and the longest chain wins and that's a very important concept and the the chain
basically the algorithm decides
Or always appends to the longest one
So, you know if you were if both were exactly the same time the next miner will then
Decide by random because there is no other by by the way, they both have to be correct. Obviously both chains
But he can choose randomly which one he wants to append to
And then that's the chain that the next one will use because the longest uh,
It's quite fascinating is that um, actually kind of funny we we were talking to some people from uh,
Not elon's like direct team, but a team that uh, I don't know
Advises him on something whatever. But anyways, we're trying to get elon today
We didn't but um, I will say there's something that elon elon's like my favorite person in the world
I'll start by saying before I explain why I disagree with him on something but he
Uh had said that and I think he's doing the most for humanity
But I think there are times where like many of us we talk about something that maybe I I think we don't fully understand or
Maybe we just don't understand it as well as someone else and I think when he said doge
should 10x the block speed
I think he like doesn't understand that this has been debated for a long time
And this is why there was the block wars in bitcoin, etc
Um is if you 10x the block speed of doge which is already one minute blocks and has lots of orphan blocks
The whole concept we're just talking about if you 10x that and bring it from you know
One minute down to six seconds
The the chain would have like so many orphan blocks that you'd have probably common reorgs. So it's actually not
You can't do that. But um
Yeah, it's like did you see this series where they have this uh time?
Timelines of the world and you have like branching out timelines and multiple universes at the same time. That's the problem
So the more they are the harder it is to manage. Yeah
Even bitcoin with 10 minute blocks has has these reorgs happen at times or uh, maybe not reorgs, but uh
One chain dying off in another chain now that doesn't I think I either doesn't usually you know
Why or or doesn't I don't know maybe even doesn't ever I don't think you could say it doesn't ever but it doesn't usually
result in any issue because
The the like when the one chain dies usually like one for one thing
They were the the miners are using similar softwares and they're using softwares to make the most profitable
So they're all putting mostly the same transactions into their block. Anyways
So what might happen is like you might get a slight difference in order of transactions
Things like that, but it usually doesn't cause like a huge issue
But it could cause a huge issue if there was like for example someone depositing to a centralized exchange and they were very advanced and they
Waiting for the day a reorg, you know, one of these
Short reorgs happens and then they and then they you know
If it happens to be now their transaction didn't go to that exchange and now they send it to their other wallet
And now that exchange just gave them money
So there's like weird nuanced cases where this can affect things
But if you had frequent reorgs and longer reorgs
You could have multiple block reorgs at a six second block time
Then that's when you could start running into like serious issues and like yeah
The eth classic got hacked like four or five times because the the reorg was actually a few hundred blocks
Wow, the 51 attacker was able to have a few hundred blocks
And then was able to go on to uh, it was one of the exchanges, uh go on so they were mining in secret
Yeah, yeah, so they controlled 51 percent of the network and was able to fork them
Basically, and they were not they must not have been broadcasting the the they basically had more fire power than rest of the network
And mining, you know hash rate and they were they they on purpose mined
With like a hundred blocks and waited until they got far enough ahead and people and did a bunch of transactions
Set took out a bunch of money onto exchanges or whatever and then broadcasted that hundred block, you know
Chain and then the other chain dies. It was always around
Updates because like for updates sometimes the the miners take a while to start updating and you know
Sometimes it goes down for a little bit
But what happens is yeah, they they mined in secret and then they placed it onto main chain
and a lot of rollbacks would you know, a lot of rollbacks would be received and everything and
On the exchange they swapped it to manero and then pulled it. I think it was like
200 million total after like well, like each classic was getting hacked like six seven times like
It was on it was on the news so many times people were like, why don't exchanges just de-list it?
Bitcoin cash. I mean the reason
In the uh, you coin blockchain just just use komoda's delayed proof of work and like nest your chain
State in the uh, bitcoin blockchain every x like blocks so you could reorg
It's not going to claw back the money from centralized exchanges, but nevertheless, I mean it's going to allow you i'm sorry
What did you say? Can you can you start that again? Yeah
Yeah, so there's this organization called komodo they were building supernet
They actually worked with the organization that built the first stable architecture proof of stake the first implementation. They have something called
Delayed proof of work and what it does is they offer it as a service
Any proof of work network because it's a common problem, right?
You're never going to get the same hash rate as bitcoin
It's just it ain't happening. So what komodo does is it allows companies who you want to utilize proof of work?
Wait, wait, wait, why don't you explain why that matters?
So I don't think everybody I mean, I I understand but I don't I think a lot of people won't have put two and two together
Why does it matter? Why does one proof of work blockchain? Why does it have anything to do with how strong bitcoin is?
Yeah, perfect. Appreciate that. Great. Great question
So essentially proof of work is just just that the proof of work
So it's the amount of computing power that is put into the given network bitcoin being the first cryptocurrency
And a proof of work currency has attracted orders of magnitude more energy being poured into the network
It's also a great way to secure a network, but it is energy intensive
So ultimately if you want to build another proof of work chain
It's a zero-sum game if someone's already mining bitcoin and I i'm also using the same kind of mining algorithm
I need to convince them to take their bitcoin miner and point it at my chain
What that means is that a trivial amount of bitcoin miners could point their mining activity at my chain
And assuming that they are non-honest actors can do exactly what was just described and rebuild an entire chain and essentially
Subvert anything that i'm trying to do with proof of work. That's exactly what happened with eth classic a number of times
And because they had such a small let's say they have a I don't know what the number is
It's probably one percent or less now
But let's just say it's you know, and now there's it's proof of work first proof of sake
So it's a different thing anyways, but let's say proof, you know, the main chain has uh, a hundred tera hashes
And then yeah, i'm just making up numbers. It's probably way more than that now, but uh, you know
It's probably trillions or quadrillions. But anyways 100 tera hashes on one chain one tera hash on the other
Well, let's say you have one tool that has 10 ha on eth
Well, then you could just take point that 10 tera hash single pool to the one tera hash pool
And you have you have you know
What 90 percent of the hash right now and you could easily reorg and double spend and do all kinds of shenanigans
So that's why in proof of work in many ways the dominant the most dominant chain is the safest chain
Because all the other chains now can be attacked by the proof of work of the main chain
The people there if they're not honest because like for example bitcoin there is no other bigger
Computer network in the world that can attack the bitcoin network because bitcoin is the biggest computer network in the world
Correct. So the rational economic solution is to nest any state of your chain that is considered canonical at various checkpoints
within the bitcoin blockchain itself because essentially what you're doing is piggybacking off of the
Hash power and energy that's being poured into the bitcoin network. Is that similar or related to merge mining?
from my understanding of merge mining it is fundamentally different because merge mining is a
How would you describe it more of like a pull system you have to request miners to essentially do the thing
Core is a great example of that. Whereas komodo does like a push system
They have a special kind of transaction that they submit that is an encrypted
Basically zip file of all it's not an actual zip file, but i'm not a dev. So basically it's a zip file all of the
Information that would allow you to recreate the chain state
So while merge mining is like hey miners pull this thing komodo is actually pushing a transaction to the bitcoin blockchain
So there's no permissions needed by the actual miners and they offer this as service
It was really the first attempt to piggyback off of the bitcoin networks kind of
Runaway ratio of energy consumption relative to other proof of work networks
So good way to secure a proof of work also
Hi, i'm ray head researcher real world assets, uh rwa world real world asset world
We do all rwa stuff speaking of which go secure your route reports. That's my contribution to the security conversation. So
And why is it not done by default and uh real real quick?
I do want to say uh, ak has joined us. Uh, great to have you back on the show
But um, I I want I want some more
Tips, you know for our audience before because we're we're almost
We're 13 minutes before we close here guys three hours going strong. Excellent. Hey
Thanks, but uh, I just want to chime in here for these 13
One of the minutes of the 13 minutes. Uh, I was traveling all day. So I apologize for being delayed
My bad brother. Yeah, I I want to I want to introduce you right right after real world assets
Because he was going to uh finish this off here. Got it. But yeah
I I just wanted to make sure that we also
Pointed out that you've joined us
But uh if rwa if you if it's a long explanation
One thing we could also do is if you could find a good article that we could read about and learn more about it
Since where we are we only have 12 minutes left
Uh, so we don't want to go too deep into this
but yeah securing these ports maybe tell us a quick rundown of why and and why it's not done by default but um
hopefully most of these things eventually like
And and encryption and bpns are all like default like, you know encryption on phones and you know
Like your hardware of your phone. Anyways, go ahead rwa
Deal. All right. I'll take a 90 seconds out of the 12 minutes then pass the ball
My my uh terms are that 60 seconds on routers 30 seconds on this cool cool stuff that we're building so router ports
Why are they important because uh the nsa and really just pick your security apparatus and you're giving jurisdiction
All of them basically I go into routers do little pokey pokes and make sure that there are certain ports open
So that they can check the activity glenn greenwald covered this has been going on since like 2003 2004
I think is the first articles I was reading on there. Um, and the link that I put below
There's this old head. He's been writing this stuff since like 2006 on how to secure your ports
Gives you the best routers give you the best hardware that you can do to not make it impossible
But at least secure yourself if someone's going to try to get your stuff put a lock in the door make it more difficult
Also rwa world. Hi again routers are real. They're physical. It's a real world asset
Everyone's tokenizing them now. You might have heard of it. If you check out rwa.world
You'll find the largest free publicly available database of real world assets. You can do your due diligence
All we want to bring to the industry is transparency
And insights that's what we do. So really happy to be here. Thanks so much for the opportunity
And yes, really fascinating conversation stoked to be here with a bunch of galaxy brain folks. That is my 90 seconds
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, let's pass them. Uh, and I appreciate all your insight, bro
If you want to pass the mic on over to pk apologize, uh for the for the confusion earlier
Thanks for having me on guys, like I said, i've just been on travels all week and uh
Haven't been on x too much but happy to see everybody here and thriving. Uh,
As of recent, you know as of last time I was on here. I just wanted to highlight
You know, my majority of what I like to do is trade and portfolio manage
And we caught the bull run guys, right? I guess the retest
I remember I had gone long at around 39k and I was telling people here around that time
Did you say that on this show I believe I did but I gotta go back you might have I think you might have
Yeah, I I was kind of telling you I wasn't all good with the sec approval. It wasn't right time at 48 49
I said wait till the 39 40s and we got in there and I and I'm still on my twitter
I don't use too much on x uh, but again now very very happy with with with the performance of bitcoin right now
I'm so bullish on the market
Uh at this point and as you guys may recall, I was not a month ago, even though everybody might have been
So where I got my entry I like
Um, and we're in we're in business. So, uh
You know, where do we see things going on from here? Um, you know real world assets and a lot of uh tokenization
And visualization of assets is it's probably going to commence. Um, I was actually having a conversation with a very good. Uh,
Uh buddy of mine. He's a portfolio manager. They're working on tokenization
Of you know hundreds of millions of dollars in in assets and um, these things are really moving
There's lots of new players that have emerged in the industry
following the collapse of the likes of silicone valley and banks and and some of the vcs that were over leveraged in crypto
We are seeing some activity
Given where the markets are right now roaring at all-time highs
I don't know if this is good for the stock market
But certainly it's going to be good for the for the crypto market because interest rates are just at a hold right now
And whenever you see interest rates usually rising a lot of the times you see offsetting happening off of crypto
Well interest rates are not rising anymore
So where do we evaluate crypto up from here and the bitcoin and really it as an asset as a digital
Asset or gold in in general?
Uh, and that's what I like about it. Again. I I I disappeared from the crypto market for about a year a year and a half
Below thirty three thousand dollars just wasn't it for me now we're above it. It's a lot of action going on
So glad to be here. Hopefully I get a lot more active and uh, be involved a lot of your guys's projects and community works
I'm always active and looking for things to invest in so
Um, you know always always got my ears open
It's good to have you here. Okay, um
And we we only got a little time here
So I I want to I want to jump in and give some more tips
But before I do that, uh, just a quick shout out
Alan from railgun on the panel here got up at 1 a.m and stayed with us the whole three hours
so, uh, thanks for being here and uh, lasting the whole three hours man and and uh
giving input throughout the show
Give some tips and tricks. Uh, earlier I was saying maybe
Tip and then maybe a more more advanced level and they just would be in regards to
Kind of like protecting your privacy
Can I ask then maybe maybe this is like someone could respond with
An answer that answers his question
Does like is there a way to have a vpn on your like say router by default?
And is that even makes sense if michael's claim was that?
People can't see your packets anyways. So like is there even a benefit to a vpn? There must be I am there has to be right so
Go ahead. Yeah, I think like I can I can answer that for you for sure. Um
So I think like the number one challenge like so this is a really great question to end it on right because like I think that like
One of the biggest challenges when it comes to privacy and the internet of things is like it's a very complicated
Very very very fucking deep stack, right? It's it's very very deep
um, you know, so like earlier, you know, we were talking about like the context of like
You know how everything now uses tls, uh, given it's you know, htps that is right
And so, you know what that means is that like an isp can see the source of the nation of packages, you know packets
But uh, you know not necessarily the content right now. Um, this gets really
Weedy and that's why like, you know
there gets to be a little bit of crosstalk and like discussion around it because like
Well, you know isps can only see like packet header data, right because you know, basically
Everything is encrypted right but they can definitely make educated guesses based on like metadata
But you know realistically they they see fuck all right
And so like the reality is is like the people you're communicating with read websites, right?
You can see everything because they're literally the people that are feeding you the content, right?
And so this is why they're important right at least in my opinion and to answer your question, right?
Um, you can actually have a router that has a uh, a vpn directly on it
Um, you know, one of my personal favorites is the uh, the gli net
Um, which is a really dope ass travel router. Uh, it's really really fucking cool
It's really trick because you can actually step it into public networks as a repeater
Uh, and it makes it really really cool, right?
Wait, you can step into public networks as a what?
As a repeater, right so you can actually take the data and then like pass it through your your um,
You know through your router
Uh, you know with your vpn and things like this, right?
Um, I don't want to get in the the weeds is like how cool it is. Look it up guys. It's called gl
But alan can I ask a question?
Yeah, when you use a vpn can the vpn provider see the content the packages
You know what? I mean the body of the htp request because they have to route it somehow or or can't they can't see that as well
I'm, not sure now you I mean you could think about them as like the context of like an isp level, right?
uh, so same same sort of like
You know purview, right the the cool thing about like an eye
They're basically the same thing as like an isp, right? So like they like are privy to the same things that you know
Um, you know the same level the same level of vision I guess
Yeah, exactly, right. They see the packet header, right?
Um, and so like, you know to that point, right? Um, you know, you can take and rotate vpns and this sort of thing, right?
Um, I think like one of the things that right so to your to your question, right?
What can people do to get started on privacy because it's complicated, right?
There's a lot to it, right? The internet is a big and scary place and there's a lot of different, you know
Channels and side channels from which your your information can be leaked, right?
And so, um, you know one of the things when it comes to like on-chain, right wallets, um,
Shameless self-promotion if I may, uh now four o'clock in the morning, right use a railgun integrated wallet for evm, right?
Uh railway is a great one, right? Um, if you're into more like, um,
Or like worries, I mean there's probably a technical risk what kind of risks are there if people start enabling
Yeah, there's no custodian when it comes to you know
Railgun balances your zero zk balance is tied to your seed phrase. So it is your money still
Um your keys for crypto, um, I don't want to get in the weeds of like shilling railgun more than happy to come on and do
That later, but I wish we had something you want to know about it
And and you know this it sucks this episode we didn't
And we were so deep in the conversations that we didn't get to talk about everyone's products
Which I actually really would have loved to have done. Uh, but yeah, come on another time
Please because I actually do let maybe next week
I would love to hear a little bit more about railgun and and you know, we're just out of time and by the way guys
Some comments and shout out some audience members, but why don't we let ak say something first then guys in the comment section
I just posted uh some of the projects that uh, we really like and will publicly support
A lot of them you guys are aware of and a huge shout out to matic and polygon very bullish on on that as well
Um, and uh, that's just my personal. Uh, that's just my personal take this is not financial advice
And uh, we do hold positions in a lot of these so uh, it's in the comment section freebies for anybody and uh, take it as your life
I wanted to to ask alan something but uh, I guess i'll wait till later, but it's basically zk
Uh, zk basically zk versus fully homomorphic encryption
Oh, man, what a juicy juicy topic that sounds like a really great one to add like one minutes ago
No, no worries, bro. You got this
Um, god, I don't know where I could start with that
I mean, I think the cool thing about afig is that like you can take and like do computation over a data set. Uh,
Know anything about uh, which is sick as fuck but um
That's like the only way I could think to distill it and not talk about it for a couple of hours
Um, I think really interested in that kind of thing, right? There's a really cool. Um, just I don't want to plug something
It's not railgun, right? But uh, there's this really great group of folks that are working on this like, uh, repository
Of privacy stuff, right? They're called web three privacy
Uh, that's like the number three, right? So web pre web3 privacy info
Uh, they got a lot of really cool shit. They're doing a ton of really great research
Uh, they're pretty agnostic. Uh, they spend a lot of time talking about different things like uh,
They have this really cool like annual report on privacy. They talk about some fhe stuff. They talk about some zk stuff
They have a privacy guide and all sorts of those stuff. Yeah, exactly
Yeah, so they talk about the different projects
The life of them and so like the the suggestion I was going to make to people like if you're interested and you feel you feel like
Moved by the topic here today like go to this website. It's web3privacy.info
And they have a they're just an absolutely treasure trove
Of different information that you could use to get to start on the path of privacy. Totally something you should check out
I just i'm on it now. I'm saving it to I saved it to my bookmarks
I'm definitely going to check that out. I'll say really quick what my my my quick, uh and simple
Advices is like number one care just care about privacy. That's it. Just care about privacy
Then if you care go to that website that he just said
That's really cool to see i'm looking at it
It looks like so there it it generally looks like they're like a neutral
Party that talks about different projects and different technologies in web3privacy. That's pretty damn cool
Yeah, they're like the like the l2b of privacy solutions for the internet. That's cool. It's uh
Wait, dude, it's sick. It's fine
Man, we didn't get enough time. I wanted to know more about what actually wide tornado cash got in trouble
I know michael said it was because there was a custodial element for my research
There wasn't but i've heard other people say different i'm pissed that we didn't get to get deep into this
It was a technicality that was uh
Basically, they they made it to where it's like hey the the smart contract is basically the custodial side
It holds the ass but the smart contract. Nobody can take the money from it, but it's like a sodium
How is that custodian you issued a custodian even though the custodian lives on jane? That doesn't make any sense
Wait, no, come on. Yeah, the solution is the solution is to have people deploy their own contracts by clicking up some buttons
And then okay. What about a liquid? Okay. What about a liquidity pool on unit swap or quick swap?
You're not a custodian, but you deployed a custodian
No, because when when you create the pool whoever create the pool
Essentially. Oh, that's a fair point. Yeah, we don't user the user the user creates the pool
But still then still the person who created the pool are they are if some ofac sanction whatever, you know
Someone gets caught doing something bad and they trade against you know
For example, our usdc east pool has over a quarter million lps in it on quick swap
Are you telling me if whoever created that pool if one of those two hundred fifty thousand lps does something bad?
That now they are liable the same way that tornado cast developers were not all of them reliable only the one that deployed it
Right, but that's that's crazy. They deployed the code. So whoever is the first to create the pool
Is is the one that's that well, that's fucking dog shit and I would love to find that
Yeah, but that's why nft and that's why nft collections when they had a coin at some nft games, you know
This play to earn games they created the pool
But they did it from a wallet that is untraceable, right because they didn't want to get into any such trouble
So yeah, there is so you agree that the person who creates the pool could be liable
Yeah, I don't agree that that should be the case, but that is the case, right?
That's how it was with tornado cash, you know
None of this stuff is like going to trial just to be like people who are listening
Like none of this shit has been like decided by any court about tornado cash. Where's that?
They're not been decided by they're gonna keep on pushing it forever
They're trying to make an example of cash
They just want to spread fear, you know, they put the guy in jail
So they you are now afraid to not do the same thing and we literally have this conversation at lda
multiple privacy projects have come to us we've talked to including you know secret and shade and squid grow and and uh
Kila's new uh privacy something we talked to all these projects and we're like
We're always scared. Like should we can we work with privacy projects? Do we somehow become liable?
Are we now enabling like and we've always been scared and I think we're at the point now where we're we're we're
We're we're doing very deep due diligence having our legal teams look at stuff
But we're we're very close to I think
Working on some privacy stuff because I think it's important if we care about this stuff
like as a incubation and marketing firm for us to support privacy by
Incubating a privacy project. Um, anyways, I want to give a quick couple shout outs here uniswap
Um, who's you know in many ways the parent of quick swap
For for the last years i've been really disappointed with a lot of their actions
Um, they were it seemed like they were moving away from rewarding their their users
Like, you know through revenue split or things are you know
What was the token really going to be used for it seemed like they were becoming more like and they they have been more like vc
Focused and corporate focused and this stuff and I look I understand business is business
But um, you know the front end charging a fee there were some just weird things that they did. Um
Talking they talked trash on polygon reorgs at one time really pissed me off
Like what was the point of that you could DM them about that?
like just a bunch of weird things and I think uniswap was kind of falling out of favor with the public and a lot of
Decentralized people as the kind of one of the original eth babies, right?
Everybody loved, you know uniswap and then they started like doing some weird decisions, but I will say I want to shout them out today
They did something really cool. They've I haven't read the full details because I just saw it on this call
Um, but it looks like they have finally turned on some fee sharing with the uni
Token holders and that's why you're seeing the price of uni up like 50 today or 43 percent, which is crazy
But I wanted to give a shout out where it's due there
Uh and say that you know, even though I do have critiques of uniswap
They are one of the people who really started this whole defi revolution and and a lot of respect for them
And i'm glad to see them doing something that is uh, I have a move that I think is good for the community
So shout out to uniswap today. Um, I also want to give a shout out you guys, you know, you may hate him
Half the audience hates his guts half the audience
Uh loves him maybe um, but trump said some positive stuff about bitcoin finally
He basically he didn't endorse it, but he said
Um, you can find the clip on my twitter. Uh, you can go, you know support whatever if uh
Whether you like or hate him the fact that he said, uh, i'm gonna try to get the words, right?
Uh, you know bitcoin, it's very interesting. A lot of people are like are talking about it. I uh
He says I love the dollar i've always loved the dollar. I want one strong currency, you know, I love the dollar but
You know bitcoin, you know a lot of people a lot of people using it. Uh, do some hand gestures. Uh, you know, what do you say? Um,
Uh, I could it would be funny if you tried to make all the best points
Anyways, he said he said, uh, I can live with it
He says like I could live with it one way or another and he and he was like positive about it
And then and then at the end said again, you know, but I do think the dollar's the best
I love the dollar and everybody clapped and cheered. So, um, bro. I think he wants the votes. I mean
I'm not sold yet. I want to hear some more politicians
You know, I know because I criticize politicians sometimes even for like he's just saying that for the votes
I say the same thing sometimes and then I catch myself and i'm like wait
But isn't that their job is to do what they think the public wants because they want their votes
So in a way, yes, it's the machine and they're catering to the machine in the polls
But isn't that kind of what they're there to do is serve the public
So if the public wants bitcoin and you know that bitcoin if you talk shit on bitcoin and 20 of the country owns it
Aren't you kind of isn't that political suicide? It's similar to like the nra the nra is five percent of the country
It's it's not a large amount. Uh, or I don't know maybe it's more
But anyways, there's this thing people say where it's like if there's a topic that at least five percent of the country
Feel very strongly about then politicians try to not fuck with it
Because if they do that five percent can swing the vote and and they can lose an election over it
So bitcoin if and crypto if 20 of the country owns it, which is what some reports say
Any politician would be kind of committing suicide if they start going against people's real assets
Which is their crypto and say that they hate it because guess what you might lose 20 of the vote over that
There's a lot of people that bitcoin or crypto is a single like issue
Like they will vote against you if you go against it
So I want to say whether you hate them love them. There are now six and you could see my tweet
I outline them, but there are six presidential candidates for democrats, uh, two
Uh, uh, sorry four republicans two democrats slash independent with rfk and moving to the independent side
But now six different bipartisan presidential candidates that are supporting crypto and bitcoin. Love it
The world is moving in a positive direction
I gotta I gotta run guys if he follows through if he follows through I love it then he well
He didn't say he's gonna do anything
But the fact that he vocally signaled that he's like he can live with it
You have to realize there's I mean, we know how die hard some trump, you know followers are if if he says bitcoin's bad
There are you know half the country the trump followers are like, okay bitcoin's bad. That's it
You know, but if he says hey, I could live with it then now half the country's like, okay
Well, we could live with it, too
So he just flipped, you know at least 45 50 55 whatever the number is percent of the country by saying that
It's a big deal guys really big deal. So anyways, I gotta run. Can aztec can you keep it?
Let's close up. Let's close up. I gotta go too. We need we need we need to do community stuff darren
Can someone please shout out community? Uh, like read some comments and shout out community members
Because we I want to respect the community for being here, especially for so long. Yeah, let me let me shout out everyone
Um, I gotta run to the next space
I know you gotta go if you guys could come to the next space we can continue some of this
Um, we could talk privacy there for sure
Uh, I know we kind of got cut short here a lot of things still to talk about would love to have anyone come over
uh chain for smart contracts on doge, uh, just recently, uh, owen one of the original doge devs launched a
Uh doge back stable coin on top of doge chain
So that's now there's doge back stable coin within the polygon ecosystem. We'd love to have you guys see all there. Bye
If anyone wants to jump in and just say goodbye to everyone have a good weekend or final words
Aztec I wanted to buy you some time because you can go and read through some comments
Meanwhile, I say my goodbyes and summarize some security tips. Is that cool?
Yeah, it sounds good, bro
So, yeah, basically, uh, I wanted to
Wrap it up from my side. So if you want to remember anything about privacy, uh, especially in crypto then definitely get yourself a vpn
There are solutions out there
For your phone. Yeah, some people didn't even know that you can run vpn on your phone
Funny and I don't know why they didn't know that but you can all right
So your phone can be protected and your computer and that's important because if you use metamask, for example
They are logging your ip address
When you're using your wallet, so if they have to provide this information they will so if you don't use a vpn
Metamask might be forced to open these logs and show somebody some authority
Which ip address was using this address of wallet address so then they can connect it to your house
Because they can go to the isp and ask who is this ip address for right? So vpn important
Okay, and then use a wallet that is secure. I mean I linked one above i'm not affiliated
But zango wallet for example is secure and it's a software wallet, but it's actually quite cool
And don't connect it to anything
Unless you really want to take the risk
So I say that you have one wallet where it's not connected to anything another wallet that you do connect
But in that other wallet you don't keep too much money, right?
Because you don't want to have the trouble of losing everything if you do some
Or you interact with some
You know bad websites. Let's say okay. So yeah, that's those are the three things. I hope
It helps somebody back to aztec and thank you guys. Yeah, thank you michael
Well, we love having you on the show wealth of knowledge as well
I'll shout out some people in the audience. Um, we got medieval empire
Burkefeld is in the audience a good friend of mine. Also panda doodle verse
The crypto nook is here. Uh
Great friend as well of the doe chain community. We have patrick good friend of mine
They're from the corgi crew much love bro. Uh, we have rubber ducky
In the audience. This is actually a new
meme coin polygon meme coin, so i'm i'm excited to see you guys here and
I got to go look at you guys smart contract and
Obviously, like gibb has been on a terror today guys
If you if you're into polygon meme coins give is like, I don't know
It's got to be at least 50 up on the day. Even though it's a red day. It was just
I think uh, the meme coin season is is is still kind of alive
From polygon. We also have se in the crowd. Good to see you guys
The black-hearted bouncer is with us
One of our secret weapons at lda and uh, let's see we have
Doge chain maxi here. Jared is in the audience. Hey brother
Uh foreign from the abagachi crew is here in ingus from the dank
Uh danketsu crew is here. It's the the same. Uh
Uh nft collection into my pfp
Uh, let's see crypto vixen is here
Chico crypto in the audience a little bit earlier. I don't see it now, but
So shout out to all of you guys. Let me go ahead and uh, read some comments
Hopefully I don't read anything too crazy like like, uh, I love balls like rock did the the last week, but um
Let's see. So rubber ducky says protect yourself on chain protect your pole rubber up
And they say alpha is in our pin post so
I'm just reading through the comments guys. So let's see what else we got here. Uh lordly
And they have a meme here that says uh when you missed the crs token launch on march 1st
So I guess we have another token to
Polygon and this is the the corgi
Michael who's here with us right here says speaking of
They can see the webto URL and your ip address. The rest is encrypted if you use https
Uh, so if you want to know more about that, he has a link here. It says spread privacy.com webc
Said uh anyone interested in our crypto product
One of our ultra products can dm us or learn more here. They have a a link
In these comments guys, just make sure that uh, you know, it's the actual
Project and that the links are good and all that but webc was here with us today and in their uh, their cool project
rock says privacy matters
Luke burkefeld says we're here
There's a dragon the cool gift there, bro
Authority cloud said thank you guys for the invitation. This space topic today is on point
Uh, it looks like mask web3. They're the browser that's also here today
Has a link to try out their uh browser
Aka dropped a bunch of tokens in the comments down below that that uh, they're looking at they're interested
And so he's he's like an institutional investor. I believe that's correct. So he has a uni. There's perv. There's matic. Awe compound
Premiera, uh, I guess they have huge bags in these so some shout outs there for some tokens
And uh, yeah, i'll leave it there. The comments are always really cool to to look at and there's there's uh,
There's some really good and interesting projects
Giving information. So i'm gonna go ahead and close up guys. I hope you all have a great rest of the weekend and
Never give up on the future of my take it easy everyone