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Privacy Builders Roundtable: NEAR Track Winners from ZypherPunk
Recorded: Jan. 8, 2026 Duration: 1:37:54Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored the launch of innovative projects like Lufta Pay and WaveTech, emphasizing the critical role of privacy in DeFi. The conversation highlighted emerging trends in the industry, including the integration of privacy features as standard options and the importance of strategic partnerships to enhance cross-chain capabilities.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, hello guys. If you just joined here, if you can just like and retreat the space
so we get everyone informed that we are live and that we are starting so I
invited to speak JP and Pritvich you are so invited to speak and we are waiting
for some more people
thanks Nia Legend also to be joining that's very cool. Thank you. hello guys so we have jp from zola near think, and we are missing Secure the Bag,
like Wave Tech. I don't know if he's joining with his project. And anyone who's like been
building for the Cypherpunk hackathon is also welcome on stage. Anyone from NIR as well,
you can request the mic. We're just going to make a quick intro we wanted like to have some space where projects can be highlighted we've been building around privacy especially on the near track
uh but it's not it's not limited to that uh we are really excited because it's uh it's the space
on x is very active around privacy there was this big hackathon ongoing but not much marketing so
far they haven't been announcing like officially
the winner yet so we wanted to take a bit um the things by yourself and try to like uh expose some
of the project so they can speak today my name is lisa i've built a lufta pay for the near track
on the hackathon and lufta is my main brand where we built kind of a web-free marketing agency where we do like tasks like
campaign and we've been dealing with payments for a year and I decided to build something
on that track to facilitate payment cross-chain payment and also make them private because it's
pretty annoying when we have like payments to do to disclose our own chain history. So that was the main thing.
So we have Rahim that just
requested the mic.
So maybe we can do like some small rounds
where Rahim and JP, you can
introduce yourself and your project.
What about that?
Sounds awesome.
Maybe I'll go first.
My name is JP. I'm from Zolanir here and I built or rebuilt
a last mile delivery service for Near Intense. So what we did is basically, if you're familiar
with Near Intense, it's like a cross-chain application where you can swap assets from
different chains. But the crux is not every asset on every chain is on Intense right now. So let's say
you want some specific token on Solana. I don't know, 420 blazed coin or something like this.
And this is not on the base intents. Usually you will be
out of luck if you just want to buy it with Zcash or whatever. So what we built is kind of a AI,
let's call it AI agent, cryptographically verified agent that basically takes over your intent once
it has arrived on a destination chain and brings it to your destination.
So for example, let's say you want to buy this 420 Blazid coin or WaveTech for example,
and you want to buy it with Zcash. So what we do is take Zcash, swap it into Sol on the destination chain,
and then chain another operation to get you your destination asset,
like Wavetech, for example.
And this all happens with one click.
It's all user-owned, so your funds never leave your own custody.
Every intermediate account that your assets are routed through belongs to you
and this is all a possible use
we can't hear you jp i don't know who's uh did mute everyone by mistake but uh we can't hear you, JP. I don't know who did mute everyone by mistake, but we can't hear
you anymore. Your mic is muted.
Oh, yeah. Sorry. I just got a notification that I was muted. I hope you didn't hate what
I had said too much. Yeah, where was I? Could you hear the things I said before?
We hear that this is just happening in one click and so on.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you basically can get any asset on any chain truly with one click.
Everything stays in your custody.
And this is made possible with NIR technology.
So NIR Intense and NIR chain signatures were the main parts that made this possible.
And we are planning to build many, many more applications using this pattern
and basically make all, very truly all of DeFi accessible to any asset.
That's awesome.
And yeah, thank you so much, JP.
You're joining also your project WaveTech.
If you can give a follow, give a follow to JP
and stay in touch with all the builders here.
It would be awesome.
We have also Rahim here.
Yeah, you can introduce yourself and tell us what you built.
Sure.
Hey, thank you for having me.
My name is Rahim.
I'm the founder of WaveTech.
And yeah, we saw an opportunity to enter the realm of privacy in this space of innovation
and very excited to be here with you all today. I am a financial freedom fighter,
someone who's passionate about our sovereignty and we've built a movement called
secure the bag it's kind of like our motto and our hub for our community and essentially wave
tech is the uh let's just say arc of sovereignty in the sea of crypto and we have three apps
in one so there's wave swap where you can swap confidentially on Solana.
And then we built a bridge with Nier to Zcash and then also to be able to access StarkNet for quantum security with ZK.
And we're working on WaveStake right now, where we're building our staking application.
So we're focused on building the future of private DeFi on Solana, but we understand
that everything moving forward is interoperable.
The future is cross-chain, and we're focused on privacy solutions and keen to look at post-quantum
security as well to be able to prepare for whatever's ahead.
I'm sorry I had a bit of lagging, I had a bit of lagging, but that's amazing and I would
love to know the part about ZK.
And I saw some of the builders have been building for Solana specifically to bring privacy to
Solana and that's interesting.
I saw a few projects like that. And that's so cool. I'm going to introduce Lufthapay. You have my other profile. I was trying to log in with my Bazile account, but I cannot say this lagging too much. I cannot hear.
for cross-chain payments,
leveraging Nia Intents,
which I think is the best cross-chain intent
that have been built so far.
They are supporting so many chains
and so many tokens.
I think it's more than 120.
They've been really active when Monad launched.
They're already supporting Monad.
They have Starknet support.
They are supporting Zcash,
which is amazing.
I was in some Zcash community group
and I saw some people like they wanted to was in some Zcash community group and I saw some people,
like they wanted to get paid in Zcash
on their shared address
to receive private payment.
But most people don't own Zcash.
So I thought a simple way for them
to receive a private payment
was to integrate with Nierentent
and allow them with one simple link.
They create a link on Lufta Pay.
They set up the amount in USD, how much they want to get paid,
which token they want to receive.
So in that case, if they want to receive privately,
they use their Zcash shielded address.
And they send the link to the payer.
And the payer can pay them with any token they want, basically,
on BASE, on Solana, and they receive it privately on their Sheded Rades,
which is amazing, especially for freelancers, even sex workers.
That's a real use case I saw in the cash community,
which they don't want to disclose their payment.
Also, on my part, as I built Lufthar,
we have 4,000 creators onboarded on Lufthar
that they complete a task-based campaign.
They post content about brand and so on.
So we are dealing weekly with payments.
And I had so many issues all the time,
like, please give me your base wallet address
or they're using TrustWallet.
This network is not supported.
Always it's a hassle.
Sometimes they don't receive the payment. Sometimes I make the payment in the wrong chain and it's not supported. Always it's a hassle. Sometimes they don't receive the payment. Sometimes I make the
payment in the wrong chain and it's not supported on their central exchange, for example. So I
wanted to have a simple solution where they can choose the token they want to be paid with the
network. We are like chain agnostic. We just want to pay the creator. They have the freedom to choose
how they want to get paid and me i can use
the token i own like i don't have like to negotiate on which network and so on which is wasting a
a lot of time if you see the video i've been on about lufta pay the payments are still feeling
like medieval today when you want to pay someone it's always like a hassle you always stress
did i copy the correct address did i pay them on the correct network so near and turn is allowing us to do that and I wish I could bring much
more like a private route to Lufthapet to allow people to pass through from
example ZK shielded pool on EVM for example so I'm very happy to
connect with other builders who build with ZK. Sorry for my accent and English today.
So it's pretty exciting.
We don't have much agenda for today.
It's just a conversation.
But feel free to tell us what inspired you to build on privacy, guys.
Well, for me, it's not just privacy per se.
But on Nier, it also comes with you because you just got the
access to everything, right? So basically NIR is like a gateway to everything. Privacy is chief
among them, but there's also every other narrative out there. And NIR itself is like the, probably
the gateway of all the narratives in the space right now. And yeah, so privacy is just a very strong one among them, especially if you go for the
payments.
The use cases you mentioned, they're like super, super important, right?
For freelancers, also whatever, all of crypto, basically.
Because I remember when I got into the space like five to six years ago at this point, I guess, the first time I saw, saw holy crap everyone can see what I do
on chain like this doesn't feel right right so it's also I guess an important
important ingredient of freedom that people don't see what shit you're up to
like at least for me that makes me more free I think so i think this is a very important uh ingredient in the
in the mix of defy and being on near is your you have first first class seats to it so i just
started building this is so cool and people we we don't realize this was privacy problem sometimes.
Until I started Lufthansa, when I see that I pay some KOL, for example, one guy, I pay him, I don't know, I would say 100 bucks and the other guy 150 bucks and he see everything on chain.
Oh, why is that guy paying much more than me? And this is super annoying as a professional as well, beyond DeFi.
is super annoying as a professional as well beyond DeFi. Also, I had a use case where I was
in Singapore. I lived in Singapore lately and I used Stratix, I don't know if you're familiar with
it, for off-ramping my crypto. And a few minutes later, I received an email, oh, we saw that your
wallet address has been associated with gambling, which is strictly forbidden and so on. Like I was
super freaked out. But I did use this wallet address for gambling at some point but i was in
france like but for me it was so crazy that in a few minutes i already had a warning like
they already know everything i did with my wallet address it's super annoying
i'll share from uh the Solana perspective.
I mean, everything is transparent.
And I've been in the Solana ecosystem for about four years.
I feel like it's no longer a narrative or a meta or just something that has, you know, become a trend. It's something that is becoming recognized as
important infrastructure for the future of on-chain finance. And with the whole narrative,
cross-chain and interoperability being of significance, I think privacy is the next layer to add to that, because when we look at how currency
flows on an institutional level, and a lot of power players are really like, you know, moving
heavy weight, they don't want everybody watching. And it's not just a luxury. It's something that,
like you said, with your own experiences, like, you know, us as just sovereign individuals, people
that care about, you know, protecting our generational wealth, it's really important
that we align ourselves with the morals, values and ethics that maybe even some of our ancestors
would have when building this kind of technology. Because personally, for me, like when I'm building
this, it's legacy tech
I want to be able to protect my family I want to be able to protect the people I care about
so this becomes meaningful infrastructure for protecting not only like our funds but our
livelihood and it's becoming more serious you know with the the different crackdowns and stuff
happening in Europe right now. I think we posted
about it on our WaveTech page. It's becoming essential that everything is happening in stealth
mode rather than just out in the open. And this is something that's been practiced for a long time
in order to protect wealth. You can't have an abundance of wealth just out in the open.
have uh you know an abundance of wealth just out in the open it doesn't make sense anybody can can
can start tracking the data and they can literally hunt you down and that's the i guess the dark side
of of crypto we've seen a lot of that so in order to do that we have to build the rails for people
to be able to go and expand securely and that's why our motto is secure the bag so yeah there's a great purpose behind
this and hopefully you guys are are also resonating with that yeah totally and it's more like much
more needed for also institution uh as well with looking at uh private uh defy as well with looking at private DeFi as well.
And one thing is that also we need to make things more simpler for people. They don't want to be using things like DonutterCash or just private mixer.
We need to abstract the privacy to a level where it's accessible to anyone.
Because today, if you're talking about private payment,
even Zcash is not that
popular for people so I believe that Nier with Nier Antons is like already opening some
path to Zcash and to like a private way to exchange money so that's great. Do you have
some opinion on that JP or anyone is welcome to join the stage as well
we have like Esther here as well
feel free guys if you want to up in
and ask questions or I don't know
discuss
I think it's just a first step actually Zcash
it's obviously great Zcash is great
the community is great
and Startnet the same
but I think Nier is actually positioned
in a way
to become a privacy rails itself, right?
I think like just a few couple of minutes ago,
Ilya from NIR actually dropped
that there's going to be private intents coming, right?
So it's going to be baked right into the architecture
because they are totally ideological about this as well, I think.
Maybe they didn't start it. I feel like how it went is that Ilya was really, really
passionate about private AI. NIR is also known as the blockchain for AI.
And I think that's where their idealism kind of started.
But now with the success of Zcash, they kind of also went all in on that.
And I think it's a good thing if they're going to bring us private intents that maybe any of your transactions or cross-chain transactions will remain private.
That will be like a really cool thing to see.
I'll expand on that.
Huh?
I'll expand on that.
I think that AI is definitely...
Yeah, also the AI part, actually.
So I think that might be even in some ways more important than the cash,
because, of course, you want to keep your cash or your
purchases private and whatnot, but you also want to not maybe have an organization like
Google or OpenAI pick your mind apart, right? Like these days, people online, they will
write literally their diaries into AI assistance like chat GPT and whatnot,
but who knows where that stuff ends up.
So that's also a big perspective
where NIR can contribute to privacy in a broader sense
by securing the AI, making it user owned,
and actually letting you keep your own thoughts to yourself
and not sharing them with some gigantic tech corporation.
I think it's integrated, right?
Like if you look at Nance and AI, they've taken what used to be traditionally like dashboards
of data and they've integrated into a chatbot.
So I think the future of privacy tech is also going to be chatting with an AI agent that
will help you transact with, you know, shields and be able to go incognito just by chatting with it.
And it makes it easy for the consumer who doesn't understand how it works.
It's just like when you pick up your iPhone, you don't know how it works under the glass,
but you can still tap the screen and it works functionally, you know, on the application level, on the surface level.
So I think AI gents and privacy is inevitable.
And I think Nira is definitely ahead of the curve.
And Nance and AI is a good example of how that Web 2 transition to AI infra is already
taking place.
And we'll see that emerge greater in Web 3.
I feel like there was a couple of projects like Zulu or something that were in the hackathon
already working on this.
But I think the hybrid crossover will come out over the next year,
where you start to see more AI agents and integrated privacy. I saw by the way about the near that there is an initiative from potluck for privacy mixer.
So it might be linked to I know it might be on the roadmap because of the success of that
cache for private route on the entrance.
But they are still looking maybe to fund a team on that or something like that.
That's what I assume because I saw like a request on project on Nier.
And also Nier AI Cloud is really advanced on that with like the T environment to process AI.
I even built a small app with Near AI Cloud,
which is really amazing.
So most of the time,
one thing we do all the time is using ChatGPT
and leaking all data on a day-to-day basis.
And it's already, I think, as you said,
they are quite ahead with Near AI Cloud.
Open AI also trying to implement some privacy with T and AI cloud. I saw OpenAI also trying to implement some privacy
with T and so on.
They're trying to build a team like that.
But yeah, AI is super advanced on that.
That's super cool to hear.
But I don't know how that will work with the AI agents
like to proceed the private payment.
I think this is where X402s come in
because like Solana is really big
on integrating X402 right now. So you'll have the X402s come in because Solana is really big on integrating X402 right now.
So you'll have the X402 agent integrate with the layer of maybe confidential swaps.
We don't necessarily have shielding yet, but you can use different methods like CSPL on RCM.
And if you just look at how all these different moving parts are operating on their own,
I think eventually the crossover takes place, right? Where you start to see different layers of the cake
get baked together, even if they're being cooked separately right now. So the interoperability
aspect is also a mirror of that. And that's why it's so great to see people from Zcash
here, Nier, Solana, even Starknet is integrating with Nier with near intense from what i've heard as well so
that is also going to be something that we're integrating and i think that what that does is
it brings um the privacy discussion into the realm of post-quantum security now i'm not necessarily
technical by trade i'm somebody that's actually passionate about marketing media and communications
but as a financial freedom fighter i think it's really important when I look at it from a non-developer perspective that you have all these different Lego blocks.
And at some point, you know, the right builder comes along and maybe team of builders, a group of builders like us here.
And we're able to start looking at the vesica pisces like that overlap where we can
start to innovate and and go deeper into these layers and the next frontier you know after we
move through privacy and obviously this interoperability with the support of near and such
is how do we prepare for um you know premeditated quantum attacks and this post-quantum cryptography with ZK-Starks,
how does that play a role? So there's all these different moving parts and we need to consider
that if quantum computing is coming into play and if we're needing to move incognito because
of the times and how things are shifting, you know, CBDCs, etc., how can we prepare ourselves
technically to be oriented and safe financially and securely for what's coming?
That's pretty summarized a lot of stuff linked to that, honestly.
Do you guys think that privacy is a barrier for adoption or that will make a difference
having like opt-in privacy for people to to join the space the web free uh
do you see a link with the uh the increase of adoption of uh crypto i think we lost jp yeah
yeah i think jp needs to rejoin as a speaker be great to have grogs up here as well
since he initiated this but yeah i guess i'll speak in the meantime in regards to that we were
talking with um rishabh from incypher uh in crypto trade and we we built our confidential swap with
their infrastructure their sdk and he's been building for about two years on this privacy tech
and the first thing he said is that he sees it being everywhere with just a little toggle switch on every existing platform.
And the ironic thing is that that's what we went and built.
We went and built that toggle switch and enabled that in our application.
So I think we're really ahead of the curve.
Right now, you're seeing this happen with WaveTech.
But within the next six to 12 months, I think there's going to be a massive shift for whatever geopolitical reasons to actually urge people to make this shift.
And we're going to start to see a lot of these DeFi platforms start adding this privacy layer through a toggle button on and off, making it optional for users at the end of the day.
And just like any other feature, this is more than a feature, I'll say that.
But just like any other feature, it will be something that is implemented across the board.
I share the same opinion on that, and this is what we're trying to do with Luftapé, that is just optional.
You can receive, send privately, and it's an optional, just like a toggle.
a toggle.
Yeah, so when you think about the future of crypto and the importance of privacy, what
is one thing that you see might be a roadblock for us as builders in this space?
I mean, a lot of it has been already moved through and it kind of got us to this place
where there's so much available.
But are there any blockers that you see that might be preventing us from being able to accelerate in the year ahead?
Open question for anyone.
Hi, guys. Glad to have joined.
Sorry, I'm out in the West of Ireland here. I'm looking after three-year-olds.
So I'm not as kind of a, I won't have the West of Ireland here. I'm looking after three-year-olds, so I'm not as kind of,
I won't have enough,
as much time as I'd like.
But just on that point,
with regards to privacy,
I think that at the end of the day,
we're kind of,
it's kind of runs contrary to what,
let's say, governments want.
And I think that's probably a huge,
you know,
it could be a huge barrier
with if they don't want that done,
you know,
you can be essentially hiding nefarious activities and this kind of stuff so they'll always whether or not that's
true they'll try and clamp down it as much as possible and we're entering now on the flip side
we're entering like a period of of history that's going to be unprecedented really like with uh
how unstable it's getting a multipolar world with more militarization and conflict,
which also on the other hand people want privacy and I suppose to put their money out of the reach of governments.
I didn't expect that but that was actually so on point, yeah.
Yeah, that's for sure.
I appreciate you pointing that out.
I resonate with it.
I think there's definitely a power shift happening globally.
And I think that decentralized finance is our way to push forward, know as a species if we're not necessarily focused on military
activity ourselves but we're also living in times where we're living in a psychological warfare
and the way that you protect yourself is by protecting your freedom of speech right so
this actually comes back to something recent I think Arjun Kamani posted
about it every transaction is like your free free speech or your active free speech so to speak
and the reason I'm bringing this up is because last year or sorry the year before 2024 I was
working on SoulChat and pushing forward encrypted communication.
And there was a lot of heat happening, especially in Europe, around freedom of communication.
And I think that that's definitely something we're going to have to consider going into this next cycle.
I'm already looking at how can we integrate encrypted chat into our application?
And what would that look like going into the next level of this.
And I think it's something we need to consider is that not only like our
transactions,
but the way we communicate is going to have to be encrypted in a way that is
sovereign and not just, just like, you know,
you see this unencrypted toggle in the chat that we have on X.
It's, it's something that we're going to have to actually go and build now as our own platforms or support existing ones like maybe Telegram, if you consider that secure, on how do we take this to the next level.
Because once they start tapping into chat streams, data gets leaked and then there goes your currency.
You know what I mean?
Like there's so many different angles that we need to look at that.
End of the day, what I'm trying to say is, um, encrypt your money, but also
encrypt your communication.
And if we can have that happen, you know, interoperably on chain, I think that's,
that's definitely the way to go.
That's awesome.
And talking about, uh, encrypted, uh, chats and and stuff we have anon mesh here i think
they are from friends from paris we saw each other anon mesh in paris i don't know if you
remember hello hello everyone gmgm that's so cool i decided to join i was curious about what you
guys are talking about but yeah we're pretty much like France-based.
Michael Fondo is from Ireland.
We also have a dev from Russia.
So we know about restriction.
We know about EU, like chat control and everything.
Yeah, this type of issue we're going through right now
is really like a big pinpoint for all of us.
It's quite interesting to see the shift
when it comes to the dynamic of privacy,
how it became like a little bit more mainstream nowadays
than compared to back in the days
when you had like Mina protocol
trying to push like ZK everything.
He had like a lot of different protocols.
And nowadays, I think we are entering
some kind of like super circle of privacy nowadays.
This year is going to be huge.
So yeah, looking forward.
I hope things will...
Well, history will just tell pretty soon enough.
Feel free to share what you're building, you know?
I think everyone is interested.
Yeah, sure.
We'd love to hear more and open to collaboration, man.
Like encrypted communication.
Big on that.
Likewise.
Likewise.
We might be tempted about attending more spaces and everything to share like
information or even just collaborating on a lot of different levels.
But yeah, AnodeMesh is pretty much the offline stack for like peer-to-peer
offline stack on Solana. So you can pretty much send, swap, yield for like peer-to-peer offline stack on Solana.
So you can pretty much send, swap, yield in a peer-to-peer way.
We're building a mesh network on top of existing mobile phone users.
So everyone can be a relayer, everyone can be a user, and you're just relaying.
And right now we're focusing on trying to find partners for like infra to have everything to be pretty much confidential and encrypted on the chat level, on the transaction level.
That's why we fuck with Arkem a lot when it comes to that, because it leveraged a lot of stuff for us.
And the AV load is pretty much done when it comes to the infra on the transaction sides.
Yeah, I mean, Rahim, you were talkingIM, you were talking about encrypted chat and everything.
And I think that most of the people are getting a little bit wrong
when it comes to chatting because they're basically smart contract based
most of the time.
So there is always a trace, especially with the ISP,
where you can pretty much like
leak your IP address to LPC providers and everything.
So some people actually were pretty smart about it.
So they're just having like a server to handle everything.
But at the end of the day, if you take in consideration the situation with Telegram,
where you had like Pavel Durov getting arrested in Le Bourget Airport, which is,
I'm not going to dox myself, but it's pretty near.
And back in the day, it's a fun fact.
I had a friend of mine working for Arbus and we were like eating at a barbecue.
And we're always like looking at all the private jets just heading to arrive at Le Bourget.
And one of them was actually Pavel Durov.
And two hours later, you just see her in the news that he got arrested.
So it's so funny.
I feel like we're literally living in a simulation in some way sometimes.
You just leave the news in front of you.
Like the news are just coming to your eyes right away and you're just living history.
So hopefully self-priv privacy will be the next big thing
even though it's been here for a while now i think i think we're anchoring it in like like literally
across the grid right so like when you look at near when you look at zcash when you look at solana
and starknet and whoever else is here like we're literally on the front lines of innovation and
anchoring it in where we are and eventually people pay attention right because the smart money does
follow the builders and then you have the institutional investors and the retail follow
so everybody is going to follow the money and the money is going to follow the developers. And right now we are so early.
We're just building the narrative and presence around the technology that's just emerging.
So I think we're early and we can continue to like grind it out and see what comes through.
Like, you know, maybe we do a collaborative incubator to follow up on this hackathon or something.
But I think the rest of the world has yet to follow up on this hackathon or something but i think the rest of
the world has yet to catch up like when you think about the fact that there's over 8 billion people
on the planet and there's probably less than 100 people in this x space right now what we're doing
is something that is in the top 0.01 that's going to help like literally majority of the people on
the planet that care about sovereignty and have access to a the internet and b um awareness of crypto right i think that's like growing from like 400
million to at least 800 million now so it's amazing times we're in and uh yeah honored to
be here with you all of you that's awesome so today uh that's a cool line on mesh that you
just joined i can you remind me which track you won of the Arcaton? Because we have Zola Nir here who won tracks from Nir. Is that correct? JP? And AnonMesh, which track you are participating on the Arcaton?
So basically the one we won so far was Archeon.
Yeah, we won like three of them already.
It was Archeon Network School and Tatian.
I don't know how to pronounce it.
I'm so involved in it right now.
My English is broken today.
No, three of them so far.
Hopefully even more.
Let's see if the announcements are good to us especially since
you know that they are looking for you on on discord and uh yeah i know i already texted
i already texted the guy and he asked me for my tg on on an email i was like no bro just
i will give it to you on discord or something like that. Just reach out or whatever. Because emails, sending your TG on emails, eh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Even if you have...
Yeah, got it.
It has for Signal, no?
Signal?
Oh, I use Signal also on the site.
But I think since some of us are EU-based, we're pretty much done for that.
It might be already bugged.
I'm not going,
I'm really skeptical now about messaging apps,
especially if you're a US EU citizen
and stuff like that,
especially with the Pavlilou of like
terms of conditions that change.
You're going to tell me I'm paranoid now.
Yeah, I mean,
you have to be a little bit paranoid,
especially when you see everything,
everything is actually like going around you.
It's pretty funny.
Even my co-founder said, oh, since we're working on Anomash, she said, yeah, you changed your mind about a lot of stuff.
I was like, yeah, bro.
When you look at it up, like things on the deeper level, sometimes you're like, damn, I'm getting bugged by everything.
Like cookies, ISP, leaking your IP address to every single provider.
Same stuff with big data nowadays.
Sometimes you would just talk in a room
about a certain product, and then it's brought up right away
in your phone.
You can talk about a Gucci bag, and then it ends up
on your Google AdSense, like ads out of
nowhere and you're like, oh damn, I'm literally getting like listened to a lot. So now it's
really interesting to see how the privacy layer on top of like blockchains or even integrated
system might be actually solving this type of issue. We'll figure it out because further we're going,
further we are seeing all those data collected.
Most of the people, especially in France, for example,
there is one company that is linked to the post,
the National Post, where they're handling all those data sets
and they're reselling to third parties
and you don't even know what's going on
you could actually ask them to see
if there is your name in it
and then it appears
to be that the next day it's been leaked
by some kind of hacker
because you went to the hospital and then now
they have your entire
health check
record on the deep web
website.
France is pretty much done when it comes to that.
It's pretty funny when you see it.
Yeah, exactly.
It's almost like we gave up, you know.
Yeah, indeed.
I mean, if you ask anyone in France,
I won't say normies, but a little bit like someone that you just met in the street or whatever, do you care about your privacy? They're most likely to say not really. In my opinion, it's still like a little bit of a niche thing. It's more about people that actually dig up a little bit and try to figure out what really is being handled data-wise when it comes
to users and everything. I don't know that much people that are reading terms of services when
they are signing up for any services they're actually signing up for. So no, it's pretty
interesting to see the change, the shifts nowadays, especially in the ecosystem.
And I think Archeum, MagicBlock, or even Nier
are really pushing the narrative forward.
Hopefully so, like looking forward to two or three years
and see where thing goes.
Yeah, something that we might be worried about
is that some institutions take over on that narrative, on the privacy narrative
because at the end of the day, it's no
longer like
privacy, it's more
like being invisible on chain
for private for the institution, you know
doing everything for the institution and at the end
of the day, it's still traceable and
we still like do
more measure to like audit
actually people.
You know what I mean?
It's actually a pretext to actually even trace even more people.
Yeah, absolutely.
And even if you think about it, most of the already existing infrastructure
when it comes to clouds or whatever integrated system,
it's pretty much based on top of open source projects so far.
So we had some issues back in the days.
I think you might have heard about this before.
Log4G, they were an exploit on all those apps that
was using this dependency, especially on Minecraft,
where you could actually just have to inject some malicious codes and take control of Minecraft
servers and all that stuff. So yeah, I mean, you'll always have some kind of cooperation that
will just take advantage of all those open source projects and everything. But at the end of the day,
you never know if it might just crumble because you got some kind of dependency injection or some kind of malicious code that may be pushed on the pull request or something like that.
But I think I don't have even the answer to that, to be fair.
It's just that everything is pretty much like small block on top of bigger ones.
And then you'd build up the pyramids.
So hopefully so.
We need to have something more unified in privacy,
in my opinion,
if we want it to be working out
for all of us at this point.
Hopefully so.
Everyone will just collab
on this type of initiative
and we will go further
when it comes to this narrative.
But once, in my opinion,
I don't know what you guys think about this,
once privacy is widely accepted
as you don't even talk about it,
it's just by design,
you will just get pretty much
100% adoption right away.
Because now we're just having
both words, both words.
You see it in some kind of reports,
which might be true.
Hopefully this year we'll figure it out,
which says that privacy will be one of the most important sector
and technology type so far this year.
But no, hopefully, let's see where things go.
Yeah, I saw some private tokens, Standard Primitive,
like, for example, that is on the token level.
I saw things like that.
I mean, I'm talking still about crypto and payment.
But it's really hard to have it, like, standardized, actually, for now.
And there's also a topic about some private pool.
I will not name the project, but it's on EVM.
We keep claiming, oh, we have private pool. But it comes still to the number of people who are using the pool. I will not name the project, but it's on EVM. We keep claiming, oh, we have private pool.
But it comes still to the
number of people who are using the pool. If it's
hundreds of people, we can trace
back easily who
deposit, who withdraw
when it's like a few deposits per
day. And this is one of the issues.
A lot of projects are coming here. We have a private
pool. We build this private pool. And at the
end of the day, we can still trace back.
So that's why I really like the shielded pool of Zcash,
which is still very active with a lot of people using it,
which makes it more private.
You already know chain analysis is going to catch your ass on that one.
Ah, yeah?
Nice.
Yeah, because actually, like, civilians' technology,
when it comes to on-chain activities,
is, like, getting, like, really, really, really good.
I had a friend of mine that told me that basically, China Analysis is now within the French banks and everything.
So they pretty much have, like, everything already.
So if they want to catch you nowadays, they'll all catch you.
So that's why I think everything encrypted on the blockchain level would be the best case scenario.
At least you won't be able to leak any data and see incredibly.
But we had so much experiments so far with ETXO, like base accounts, some kind of like ZK.
Hopefully so, we'll find one that would be pretty much good for everything, hopefully soon enough.
Nice. I just want to remind everyone who is on the space,
if you can support the project and the speaker,
me and Bazille, you can see me, my profile is Bazille,
but the project I presented to the Cypherpunk is Lufthapay.
We have AnonMesh, we have WaveTech,
we have Zolanir from GPay, if you can give a follow Gpay to Groggs.
And I thought there would be like Zucchini Wallet, who is the first Zcash web-based wallet, which is amazing.
I don't see them. I wanted them to join, but I don't see them.
And we have...
I just think they're gone as well, but I saw Zonjpad there who was in the crowd, but they must have left.
I would have invited them. You can check out the winner of the Akato. You can check them out.
You can see the project, which track they won and so on.
I invite you to browse them. It's very interesting to see what has been built.
As Rahim said, the builders are setting the trend.
We have a web-free plug here, which I know is part of the Potluck team.
I would love to hear what's your thoughts if you check out a bit of the project we've been building in Agaton.
Feel free to take the mic.
Can you all hear me?
Yep.
Yeah, perfectly, yeah.
Awesome, awesome.
Yeah, no, this is super exciting to see.
Yeah, we're Potluck, which is like open funding protocol on Nier. Also, I was at Nier Foundation for a little bit in the Nier ecosystem,
so this is like beautiful to see all these different privacy builders come about and all these projects.
I'm really excited to see really all y'all making Twitter accounts and turning into real products and the start of something new.
So I love seeing that.
Not too long ago, there wasn't even a dozen founders in the privacy space.
And even now to this day, people are getting prosecuted on.
Kion from Samurai Wallet just checked in for five years.
Roman also just checked in.
And so it's incredible to see the momentum around it.
And it's also incredible to see founders who are brave enough to build
in this privacy space, not just mixers,
but we have encrypted DeFi coming around cross-chain
and so many different elements.
So yeah, I'm just super excited to see not only products I could use, but then things
that can actually scale and be useful.
I think you were mentioning an Ethereum privacy protocol.
One of the most crucial things is the tech isn't necessarily too hard to build.
It's actually how do we build privacy tech that's privacy by
default how do we build like the HTTPS equivalent where everyone is adopted it
in that look in the application the interfaces like where people actually
use so a lot of this next sprint of this you know privacy innovation is gonna
come from founders like y'all that like develop products that have this by
default that people don't even know is private.
So yeah, super, super excited to see this and see other projects.
And, you know, coming from the new ecosystem, it's like, yeah, there's a lot of cypherpunks that come around from there
that would love to kind of support projects and help all y'all kind of scale that.
So yeah, just super excited.
I've been following a lot of these projects
even before the hackathon.
And yeah, yeah.
Thank you so much.
That's so cool to hear.
By the way, I saw the initiative on Potluck
for Privacy Mixer and I applied.
But I'm more like a project person
and I would love to,
if anyone wants to build a team,
I'd like to join the team with Lufthapé
to build further on that on that privacy route if you can make it happen to connect us with other
people of our builder so we can build like strong team that will be so cool because me I'm solo on
my project so yeah that would be awesome yeah and a note on that so originally there was a privacy
mixer on Nier,
and this is kind of the importance of, like,
building that anonymity set and building something with traction.
It was called, like, Hydra Cash,
and then rebranded to OPAC tickets.
It was kind of like a Tornado Cash in the sense
where it's like a, you know, ZK snark-based ticket,
and then you take it out of the pool.
The problem was was when it
was in production it was live like the team is even can easily kind of put it back up um but it
was really just me mixing my money in there so it was me putting my money in and me taking it out
and nobody actually using it and then even at the time um like uh i ran a lot of the wallet building
groups at uh at near and i was trying to basically get wallets to integrate this by default.
So imagine like Meteor and like my Nier wallet and just have it so you can privately send,
just like, you know, you can see on Privacy Cash today where it's like that.
And yeah, all of the teams were scared and their legal counsel was kind of advising me,
like advising against it on here.
And so like the service actually shut down, not even because of a funding issue, but because of like there was no there was no reason to keep it up.
It wasn't actually delivering on on privacy. So that's that's one of my biggest concerns with like looking up and like reviewing stuff like that, like whether team can not only build the stack, but actually go to market and build out that flywheel.
You know, my thought is, for example, I launched Lufthapay.
People can already make payments, request payments and so on with Nealterns and cross
in payments, have the private option with that cash.
But another thing I noticed is I already started doing integration with B2B. For example,
there are projects on base. They have a lottery.
You can only use
it on base to buy the
tickets. So I opened more
way for people to purchase
tickets even with Zcash or anything they want
from the intent. And those people
will be interested to have private route and so on.
So if you take
the angle of b2b
and have this integration on the stripe check out level so that's my vision with luftapay to have
like a stripe check out with a uh with a private option so then you get volume and once you get
volume you get more people in and the the the private route will be more private because there
is more user in the pool you know what would would be really interesting to see within the ecosystem?
I'm talking the overall ecosystem to have the equivalent of bridge.xyz that got
acquired by, I think it was Stripe, I believe, like pretty soon enough, have
the equivalent, but for like privacy.
So basically being able to dig within existing like liquidity pools.
So it could be fiat or whatever,
and be able to just having the entire infra as an API.
So everyone could just use their money,
having everything to be confidential and not see anything,
especially for certain certain use cases,
such as when you're doing some cost-of-the-payments or whatever, you don't want to
see people, what the amounts they actually send to the family and stuff like that.
And actually, we saw it with AnonMesh recently with the Arkham community.
There is a huge demand for people from countries such as like Bangladesh, India, Iran,
where they are pretty much like censored and they don't have access.
Sometimes even RPC providers, they are pretty much getting banned.
So they need to use VPN.
But the thing is, most of VPN are also banned in some of those countries.
So it's a huge issue.
So hopefully, we'll see this type of narrative
around the fact that we'll be able to move money freely,
but in a fully confidential way
within all the ecosystem at once.
So I'm pretty much willing to even put money
if some people are trying to push this type of project
to be live recently.
Yeah, that's interesting.
That's really the way to go.
And doing it like in a B2B article,
just like Stripe level, like you said, will be nice.
Because if you're looking too much of the individual,
they don't see like the needs directly or to go somewhere
to make them go out of the way.
But when it's integrating directly on the DApp,
then you're most likely to use it.
Yeah.
There's also like,
because I was actually just had a meeting with the head council
and your foundation about specifically around like,
we see again this privacy innovation,
but people are getting prosecuted.
And there are a bunch of ways to prosecute y'all.
It's not hard to get all of y'all arrested, like straight up.
And leading back to the points of where your lab companies are,
whether you're facilitating a front ed,
whether you're actively facilitating a front ed.
In particular regions where you have it, KYB, KYC.
There's also something called KYT as well,
that if any major person wants liquidity deployed,
it's different than KYC, KYB,
where you got to verify a business or verify an individual
that you kind of whitelist their address.
KYT and AML are more know-your-transaction,
where they're actually active services,
whether it's TRM labs,
hypernative, you know, chain analysis, these are the big firms that essentially create dynamic
blacklists that are constantly kind of checking whether it's affiliated with illicit funds and
things like that. If you don't have these types of services, not only are institutions not
trying to like deploy liquidity with you, you could basically get prosecuted in the jurisdiction
you serve. So a lot of you are in Europe right now, because you guys are interfacing with DAPS
and not geo-blocking it, if you serve anyone in America, even in Manhattan. So commonly,
they'll use Manhattan because the Southern District of New York, they're a big prosecution force in the US. They're the ones who prosecuted SPF, Roman, Chiod, P. Diddy, Maduro, like, all these guys
are in the same prison.
Like, you basically, for every jurisdiction your DAP serves, you are liable to that jurisdiction
prosecution.
So if you guys are geo-blocking on your dap literally your lab
code for actually operating a front end can get prosecuted for uh money transmission um to be
honest and looking at the court documents of what it said with like um like like uh with with with
roman and stuff like that these prosecutors think that if your dap interacts with smart contracts,
it is custodial.
Like, it's crazy.
Like, they don't know what they're necessarily talking about.
But in terms of legal precedent,
it's really hard to, like, provide front-end services
to provide things that serve APIs
without kind of geoblocking these KYT providers.
And again, like, it's really hard to facilitate anything when it
comes to stable coins, because we don't have a real, a real stable coin that is decentralized and
like, really tried and tested that also isn't like, we don't really have that. And all the
existing incumbent stable coins, they, if you're're being genius compliant you have to enact KYT and so if you guys know how like tokens work
like you don't have tokens in your wallet yeah there's a token contract and
you check the token contract is to see the mapping of your ballots so it
hair be like all of these token contracts and all these stable coding
ones have an ability to blacklist so USDT people are like oh yeah people in
I read use it
it's it's it's they're more like though these guys like bohines that is that you know tether
you know like these guys are commonly blacklisted there's twitter accounts that let you know about
usdt commonly blacklisting usdc commonly blacklisting how do we know the methodology
of which they're blacklisting at we absolutely don't. And so it's not hard for
these existing stable coins. So say you're using a privacy cache. It's not hard for, at one point,
TRM Labs or Chain Analysis to be like, and these are, if you look, okay, go to LinkedIn right now,
go to TRM Labs, go to Chain Analysis, go to HyperData. These are the primary firms that are
doing this KYT, look at their
org chart, look at the back where they come. They're all Israeli and American intelligence.
So the guys who actually could blacklist USDC and USDT and then have the underlying infrastructure
are intelligence agencies. And so like, it's not hard for them to be like every single person
who's integrating with your mixture
of protocol let's blacklist that immediately um and it's it's super easy to do once you get
traction this will be the case and if you even facilitate that and don't have these kind of
regulatory things in place you're gonna get prosecuted and this is what i've been kind of
saying like this privacy hype is good and all um and this is why i hit up uh the legal council
but i'm like yo like there's people are actively going to prison the only reason why the only Privacy hype is good and all. And this is why I hit up the legal council.
But I'm like, yo, like there's people are actively going to prison.
The only reason why the only regulatory things that we got so far in America, which triggered a lot of this run, is the G-DIS Act.
And again, like that is requiring stable clients basically pay like a million dollars to be
compliant.
These are for the big issuers.
And it requires that they have these kind of KYT parameters there.
So it's essentially the only legislation we got is to expand stable coins, which is expanded
U.S. dollar hegemony, which is not only making it easy, like it's not only allowing blacklist,
but it's actually making it easier.
It's way more easy for someone to program like blacklisting of stablecoins than it is to blacklist a bank account.
It's way more easier, way more programmatic. So I love seeing the interest, but there's actually
some coordinated efforts that we need to make to not only protect our founders, but educate them
about where are you liable, how to set up up your corporations how to make sure that you're not getting prosecuted against because um like this uh i've never uh
at all by time in crypto i've been in crypto almost 10 years i've never felt like it was easier to go
to jail uh than being a privacy powder and so like that's like i don't want to discourage anybody but
at the same time it's like it's not uh currently in terms of my privacy tech stack on how I would like to operate and be private on chain.
It's not there.
Also, for the toolkits on where founders need to be, it's not there as well.
And then also on the current founders that have implemented privacy at scale, they're literally all going to prison.
And they are absolutely blown by what's going on. They're like, well, how does Zcash have a TEDx? And everyone is like,
free Ross. Ross Albright, this guy was a trapper. He innovated the trap game. He was in the game.
He was doing the dirt. These guys, Romain and Keon, these guys are PMs at blockchain.com. They're
Oxford grads. They have kids. They were building open source technology.
They're getting, I mean, they're blown that no one's out here like free us, free us.
But every day they're bullposting Zcash and things like that.
So, yeah, these are kind of just, I know I kind of went off on a tangent in red.
off on a other tangent in red but yeah i am uh i'm super scared about uh about like prosecution
and uh and i even tell the people i tell the lord like where is coit center where where is defy
um education fund like where is murt talking about like free rope fees like like for me it's
like if you're not for those guys i'm the i got a plug in my name like i'm definitely
going to prison if i'm building in the privacy space so that's kind of where i'm at i don't
know how y'all feel about that hopefully so the the purple walk will be the the most fantastic
one ever might launch like meme coins on top of that or something like that jokes aside no i i
think it's true it's definitely true anything that that is related to the USD, you're pretty much going to get your shit built up at this point.
Because if you use USD for whatever reason, we have saw it with, for example, like Venezuela,
using USDT as a way to actually buy services and products.
Recently, since they announced it,
you have seen Maduro being prosecuted
as a drug law leader by the US in four hours.
They just rock his shit.
And they took him and then gave him the paperwork
in NYC and everything.
So no, definitely, definitely.
But hopefully so. Not only that,
the Swiss banks freeze those assets,
which is completely unprecedented.
It's like you can't,
it's crazy the amount of reach
that they're willing to go to,
but they're breaking precedent
just to prove their points on their enemy.
And what is the most common way
that they prosecute all these people is money laundering.
It's money laundering, terrorist financing.
It's all this.
This is the most common tactic in the book.
And they're 100% going to use it if you get traction or if you're actually building revolutionary tech,
revolutionary tech because they have to control the money like again all America has as an empire
because they have to control the money.
is like really military tech innovation and their dollar hegemony and stable coins right now are in
the favor of that that is why they are promoting it but this whole thing of decentralized tech
it's not an exact mapping there could always be administrative changes but even in this
administration they haven't dropped the charges against the privacy founders. And so it's important
to understand what is being signed up for, but there is a whole level of not only innovation
that needs to be done, but regulatory protection, but even OPSEC. The fact that we're the founders
of privacy projects
or all the Twitter space right now with their voices at,
like to me, this is preposterous.
The fact that Zypherpunk hackathon
was completely all Discord
and they made you sign up on Devfolio on here
and then they linked it to a bunch of GitHub's
and I went through every single one of your projects, okay?
I followed every single one of your GitHub's actually. It's not hard not hard to find y'all and so like it's important to realize but like when we talk about
like literally creating a liquidity layer on like a scale that like can move any type of money
indiscriminately you got to understand like the game that you're getting in and the level that
you got to be at and so that like that this is i'm I'm super, I'm super, I'm super, I'm super concerned. I'm super concerned.
That's why some people will just use the privacy brand and not do like real
private things. Like, oh, they say private, but auditable, you know,
it has the thing private, but it's auditable.
I mean, it's, it's interesting because in my opinion, the, you know,
it's always the hardest thing to try to hide in plain sight.
And actually, it's pretty interesting.
For example, for like Breakpoint London for Solana have been announced.
And in the UK now, you can get prosecuted if you're producing or distributing any end-to-end encrypted product.
And the CEO of Arkeum, I should have tweeted about this,
where he was saying, I might not come to Breakpoint London because of that.
And no, definitely there is furthermore like states and countries
trying to not allow this type of technology to be pushed.
But at the same time, trying to hide yourself and trying to
to be like full-on private about what you're doing or not even showing your face or something like
that is even worse because let's say something happened to you for example in trying to push
product that is like really privacy oriented and not just as a gimmick you know um if some
someone catches you or government is trying to take you
down or something like that you might actually try to disclose yourself even further and trying
to be as public as possible because in my opinion the more you're hiding yourself from the crowds
the worse is going to be you you still need to have like a little bit of um like privacy when
it comes to your doing IRL
because we saw it, for example, in France.
It's pretty funny because every time there's something
that gets into some kind of turmoil right now,
for example, someone getting his finger chopped off or whatever,
it's always about France recently.
And actually, a cool fact like not even in cold use but a cool cool fact
is recently we had the the french irs like someone working for the french irs that was actually
uh persecuted because the person that was like 31 years old it was just closed like today like that
publicly that she was looking for people that was crypto related on the iris like files like french iris
files where you could see the pre-value and everything and then relaying those information
to some kind of group that might be linked to the kidnapping and the people getting their finger
chopped off and everything so i think the state is trying to to take down a lot of people.
So privacy is even more interesting to have, not just as a gimmick,
but just as a default mode for most of the apps
when it comes to pretty much the way you handle your money
or send money to XYZ or whatsoever.
But now, basically, I think you're kind of right about the fact
that if you're a privacy-oriented project or someone that really is willing to put herself out there and getting into this space, especially since it's normally pretty secretive about a lot of stuff, you either go for the route where you pretty much hide yourself from and you don't link your identity to your project
or you just go full on like build in public.
And I mean, there's not really like the optimal route at this point.
But I think you should be...
Name one public founder with a privacy project that is at scale
that isn't actively getting prosecuted against.
Oh, there is definitely
like a lot of them that but as you said it's pretty much the price of success when it comes
to this space unfortunately but it's part of the game no i mean i mean i mean name name name them
i would like i would like to i would like to i would like to see them and you'll probably see a
lawsuit or them actively getting investigated on uh on on uh there like i i i would or they're probably already affiliated with
an intelligence group like we can we can track it definitely i i just i just need to to know this
case study before we start telling people to build in public first my my general thing is always if
you're building privacy tech always build it and then stick it there so when you go to prison it
is still running because that
that's going to be your defense yeah on on there and a lot of you guys aren't even thinking like
that like on on on on near like a couple years back we actually edited we ever did this for
potluck like there's this whole concept of decentralized front ends everyone was getting
prosecuted for ofac like and and they were like front ends were getting prosecuted too
the labs were getting prosecuted there. The labs were getting prosecuted.
There's huge precedence against that. If you can do something around it, you're liable.
We saw this with the Wormo hack case where literally three years later after the $150
billion hack or the $300, however much it was, the Jump crypto literally sued Oasis Labs because they saw a backdoor and they sued them in the UK where they were based to basically take out the funds of MakerDAO and reverse it and give it back to Jump from the hacker after a year and a half.
And it really shows like, yo, if you have a labs and they can find you and they can find you in the jurisdiction, And even if there's a backdoor you don't know about,
you're legally obligated to comply.
And I have like everyone that you can see,
like you got to keep it by it.
Like everyone is developing a profile on every single crypto founder,
no matter how big you are on there.
People are saying, oh, you're not too big to watch.
And I've seen this with the North Koreans.
Like the North Koreans are always on my ass, always. Since when I was sleeping in my car on there. People are saying, oh, you're not too big to watch. And I've seen this with the North Koreans. The North Koreans are always on my ass.
Always. Since when I was sleeping in my car
on there. Even they're
trying to hack the poorest of my Nigerians.
And, yeah.
Can y'all say that?
Yeah, you cut off in the middle.
Did I cut off or what?
No, no, but it's really interesting. Can you say it? Yeah, you cut off in the middle. Did I cut off or what?
No, no, but it's really interesting. I mean, we should always be on our guard a little bit when it comes to that.
But at the end of the day, it's a place of success, hopefully.
But now I hope the pup walk is going to be fantastic at this point.
Hopefully so if we get persecuted in some way.
But no, definitely.
I would even add to
it and say that
I don't know if you saw it,
but Proton actually
was willing, and they might
have actually done it,
moved the entire infra from Switzerland
to Germany
because they had better laws when it comes to
protecting confidential data and everything when it comes to confidentiality. And especially since
Switzerland approved the DID on all the citizens recently on the federal level. I was in Lausanne
back in the days when they passed the law. And it's pretty interesting because we see a shift in narrative.
And that's why a lot of people are getting a second passport
or even just revoking themselves from having US or EU-based citizenship at this point.
And what was the downfall for Pavet D'Urv when he got arrested
was the fact that he had both a dual nationality,
which was the French one and the uae one
and when he he put some like he put it his foot in france he got persecuted because of that
mostly and because he was under the french section
fuck him you know i i fuck fuck with that like on the record these okay firstly telegram is
unencrypted okay and um you like if you've been
around the crypto space if you've really been around the crypto space and you've been part of
like notable crypto companies the french government works with crypto companies to
surveil crypto founders illegally and to do illegal wire traps this is a known thing this is like
they're actively they literally held Pavel hostage.
France has a backdoor to Telegram. Your messages are unencrypted. They are reading that without a
doubt on there. I got banned on Telegram. And I'm pretty sure it's the French because if you look,
if you read my messages and you're in the French government, you would ban me too.
And so I'm pretty sure it's the French, but I don't trust that.
I don't like the fact that Harsh was trying
to get all of us on Telegram to even get on this stuff.
I don't even like the fact that we was on Discord.
Why is there so much controlled opposition
happening on Discord?
Why are there so many colored revolutions
happening in Nepal and Tadzadia
and everything is being organized on Discord?
What's actually going on here?
And so, yeah, man, fuck Telegram. Fuck Fulham. Zadia and everything is being organized on discord like what's what's actually going on here and so
yeah like man man fuck fuck telegram fuck for sure maybe you could see the number of people who get
well that are released to the French it was when I checked was 180k or something like that but it's
definitely some political groups yeah that are monitor yeah so you're all using telegram but i feel
like when you join those groups you for sure you you you're you're watch no no no not political
crypto found think about it okay and this is what i was trying to get when i got uh cut off with the
with the with the north koreans like people often think i'm not a big enough uh uh uh like like fish
to watch that is not true that is not how surveillance works
there's only thousands of crypto founders okay there's more north korean crypto hackers and
crypto founders that's why they're literally like in your discords in your chats and they're
honey potting from the day one even at foundations at crypto foundations like
they've been known to infiltrate that and even give payouts to north korea devs and they recommend
feds uh friends and they have venture-backed companies
with North Koreans there.
It's not that you're literally like,
you're not a big enough fish to fry.
It's that when you're big enough,
they activate the backdoor on there.
And the same thing when it comes to prosecution.
Don't think that they didn't monitor you
from your first GitHub commit
and they're just seeing so you can get traction.
That is a very foolish thing.
And even thinking like that
is going to ultimately show in your product
and how you look at OPSEC
and what you actually consider privacy.
Right now, like most of the private stuff
that we're having is private transactions.
We mentioned, okay, well then the wallets
could give up your RPC requests.
The wallets track your IP addresses.
The block explorers, when you get on there, they could be tracking you too.
And every single point, if you're running any type of investigation, you literally just press whoever you can find.
You don't think Etherscan would give something up?
You don't think SolScan would give something up? You don't think SolScan would give something up.
You don't think I can go to UAE right now,
one of the biggest surveillance states,
find BERT,
look at ore markets,
look at who looked at that transaction,
link it back to the wallet,
hit up Phantom,
someone who's raised $150 billion,
people who have children and kids,
go up to them and see where your transaction comes from.
And this is why I think,
you know,
this is the first good step
that we're working on how to encrypt
on a public blockchain.
But in reality, in the next hackathon
and things that we do,
not only do we have to figure out the legal defenses
to actually bring the social sphere
so we can't get prosecuted
and actually change the precedence of America,
which is one of the biggest prosecutorial,
the prosecution forces that we got to worry about. But like actually like looking at OPSEC
outside of the crypto bubble from the entire tech stack on here, because like even hearing about
like where the privacy files are, it reminds me a lot of just past crypto NFT and B-movements. It's cool and all,
it feels like traction, but when it actually comes to real life, real world application,
that's going to save our life. Because what is privacy? Privacy is ultimately freedom of speech.
Nowhere does that actually exist, except in my opinion, like America. And the reason why is
because we have the second amendment. America is one of the only places where if you take away our right to free speech, we will fucking kill you.
Wallahi. It's like that. Nowhere is it for it. And everywhere that you see is going against
that freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is fundamentally the check on authoritarian regimes.
And they're one of the biggest prosecutors against privacy
because privacy allows for freedom of speech without scrutiny.
And you see this right now happening with digital ID.
You see this right now happening with them trying to control the things.
You see them even using blockchain to control transactions
and to even control it in real time.
And so I just, I really, I really like this year, it's, it's, it's, it is
make it or break it for the privacy projects. It is make it or break it for getting in default
because it's like, I don't know if y'all have noticed it's wartime. Like there is going to be
wars that break out in, in the upcoming month, overthrow Iran, right? That's another nexus.
You see what's happening in the Middle East and what's expanding on there.
You see the surveillance actors that are going on.
People aren't even wanting to promote privacy and freedom of speech like on here.
People aren't even trying to...
It's going to be crazy within the next year.
And when wartime happens, that is the best time to pull up another Patriot Act, to give
another justification to take out the rights at all.
So this price is cool, but straight up, current rate that innovation is going on, even 10x
of where it's going to, is absolutely dismal for what we need to do to actually protect
real privacy, real freedom of speech, and making sure that
the only people that...
Who are the proponents of tech right now?
The American government and the Chinese and anybody else who goes against that, they will
use any measure to Gaddafi you.
And so I just want to emphasize that because we're celebrating some Hacks.
Probably some projects, but it really, like, we are such in a bubble and it is not it. Like,
we are not doing anything. And the people that should be aren't, it's honestly very,
it's very disheartening on there because
like the timelines of like okay maybe we get private transactions in a year it'll be too late
like we need everything by default private messaging like the private stack like vp ads
that are controlled by israelis like it's uh that that's kind of where i'm at i don't need to be a
doomer but it's it's it's it's it's 2026 is is is ww3 right here like it's it's it's where
stuff is going to go down so like we got to get organized and collective and actually be on our
opsec and not think this is a a game or on some regular thing and that goes for the hack about
organizers that goes for people like near protocols that are that are uh putting founders
to this perspective that goes for the way that we deliver projects originally
like the way the way that we innovate it's just like we got to be we got to be on our
shit because i could find all of you like wallahi i could file all of you and and and and and where
i'm from is where the cia is at and let me tell you they could find us if we actually did something
and so uh i don't i'm not i'm not here to like, either we build privacy by default or we scare all the founders or the innovators to integrate that.
But there is nothing in between.
And by default, there's a lot that we're using.
So, yeah, a little bit of doomerism for y'all.
Damn, you shut down everyone
no but very interesting i mean to be fair if you even look at the standard of encryption when it
comes to md md5 uh shat 2056 it was pretty much built by the nsa um a lot of it when it comes to
encryption or even having privacy like end-to-end encryption
or whatsoever, is pretty much built by the same org
every single time.
So you already know they might have like,
we're talking about quantum proof software technology.
Everyone is scared about this, but we pretty much already
have like backdoor story of things, in my opinion.
But hopefully so we
you were talking about the situation with calafi for example where he was trying to bring his own
like pan-african like currency having everything to be done the us doesn't like that so yeah it's
it's part of the game i believe and that's why getting out of the european un countries might be the
best case scenario for a lot of u.s citizens if they're really willing to to put themselves out
there but no america will find you we just we just pulled up to venezuela and smashed the president
don't like what do you no no like actually what do y'all think you think you can not being in
america is gonna hide you from america amer actually, what do y'all think? You think you can. Not being in America is going to hide you from America.
America has treaties.
Okay.
Y'all are going to realize once we take Greenland and the EU doesn't do shit.
And they're conflicted on whether to do shit or whether to proceed with Ukraine or whatever to get geopolitical.
Like, you guys are going to realize, like, that anywhere you are can be touched.
This is America.
America in the past, like, 30 or 40 years, they've overthrown 200 governments.
There's 180 nations.
That's almost every government and a couple times over.
Like, we do this.
Like, this is our trading profession.
Like, this is, like, creating... You got to keep in mind what
happened in... Where was it? Lebanon? These guys made a pager company, infiltrated for a decade
for this arcane technology to ordinate coordinated strikes. From a pager, from an outdated technology,
you don't think they're on GitHub repos where that could be automated technology you don't think they're on github repos where that could be automated you don't think they're they're in the encryption schemes with the back door
you don't think they're they have a back door into google there's not a revolving door between
the cia google and the quantum computers they're using they already have it cracked our encryption
scheme and are waiting for that like art like like it's it's it's it's it's it's cool to think
oh yeah we could just build a public and collaborate in open source.
But this is one of the most critical things that a government cares about, which is control,
opposition, taxing your finances.
These are fundamentals.
I wasn't mentioning Gaddafi.
Gaddafi. We use that as a verb to get Gaddafi. What it means to get Gaddafi is anytime you try
We use that as a verb to get Gaddafi.
to go against the American hegemony, you will literally not only get killed, but be raped
in a public court. They raped him in his own country. They freed all of Al-Qaeda. There's
open-air slave markets in Libya right now. This is what happens if you try to build real tech for your people.
And then they'll paint you as a terrorist, which is what they do with AML and KYT.
This is common playbook on there.
And so, yeah, it's important to realize like nothing that anyone in crypto who's gotten
traction has really done has been too revolutionary.
Again, like the people who are
getting traction the billion dollar acquisitions they're all compliance guys they're all pushing
the dollar like they're they're all an extension of the american regime but like what we're doing
with privacy fundamentally that should like for me i don't even understand why uh the cia let
zuko run free that to me is sus i don't even know why they let belaji like
try to start countries to me that's the guess to me it's like why would they allow it so i'm just
i'm just like to me it's like it's kind of it's it's really crazy to me that like
i i don't know how to be private i'm a i'm a known i'm a known person, but it's just super, super crazy to me that
we think we can preserve freedom by just building privacy on crypto when literally the way they're
going to track us is going to be all the underlying stack that we touch. And the reason why I say this is because in the 10 years I've been in crypto,
everybody's offset got worse.
Everything got more institutionalized and people started carrying less on here.
And even the way people are talking in the privacy space,
I'm like, yo, y'all must not know what type of time it's on.
This is all like, this is all like all like you have to believe you have to be
with the stuff like uh private payments isn't just an api you could plug into it's like if it's truly
private and i i i don't believe much anything is uh but why would the feds reveal themselves
so that uh when they when they could activate it when we're most reliant on this
critical infrastructure and so yeah i'm not a maxi for everything i'm just like i'm just letting y'all
know it's it's game time like it starts with a hackathon and then and then ends with revolution
for real hopefully so you're using graphine os and everything, so you won't get your...
I'm tracked. I'm tracked. I'm tracked. I ain't using any of that stuff.
I ain't... What? I ain't using... But they had to relocate too. That's crazy.
Yeah, they went away from France too, once again.
Everyone is leaving France, bro. Everyone is leaving the boat.
Everyone is leaving France, bro.
Everyone is leaving the boat.
The ship is sinking.
No, but it's pretty interesting
because we see the American instrument
just getting away with a lot of stuff.
So, I mean, privacy at least.
I mean, for me,
it's not really being like
hidden from the government
or something like that
because if they wanted to catch you,
they will pretty much catch you, as you said. It's all really being like hidden from the government or something like that, because if they wanted to catch you, they will pretty much catch you, as you said.
It's all about being able to get back some control, at least some control over your privacy and your confidentiality at this point.
And I mean, at least on the level of other people, if an agency is trying to seek you out they will i mean they they found some people that was dig up into like some kind of or something like that uh later on uh while they were like getting searched on by the the nsa the
cian the lvi and whatsoever in like middle east country you might know about what i'm talking
about but um no definitely they will they'll catch you but at least if we can leverage the fact that privacy and encryption
on a level where your neighbor is not seeing you for example selling some kind of like
fitbakes or something like that at least yeah you got a little bit of peace on mind when it
comes to that like daily uses but on the state level yeah you're pretty much fucked that's for
sure but that don't mean you shouldn't try though that don't mean like like like like
just because they're tracking you doesn't mean you should make some attempt to do it and then
understanding that you like guys as the people who are listening in this space as kind of the
inner circle to the the privacy crypto narrative if you guys aren't doing it from a ux perspective
you shouldn't expect any average day user to do it. And the steps that you do take to actually be private, take this paranoid vitality, take
this hacker mentality, see how they can get you and try to engineer around it.
Then think, how can I incorporate this and bake this into the products by default?
Because although, yes, they can get you, that's the game.
Like what?
Like what?
I would never want to be part of a game where the consequences are dead or in jail. Like we signed up for the crypto tech. We signed up for the crazy tech. That's that's in the game. If the consequences are any different, you not in it. You in a different game. You in a fintech. You in traditional startups. You ain't in crypto privacy, but understand the consequences of the game. And if you don't, that is an injustice
to the revolutionaries and the predecessors before us that took those consequences. It's a shame to
know so many people who went to prison who serve in time right now, just so we don't even learn
the lesson of how to operate. And this is why it's very important to give a reality for the precedent
there. And this is, again, around around like, you know, true freedom.
Because, yeah, it's looking like, I think crypto is all about coordination and decentralization.
And we have a movement of different engineers anywhere and everywhere that are battle hardened
and that are willing to ship.
But I think there needs to be a more level of coordination
to understand that we need a Manhattan Project type of energy
where we actually look at this as an existential crisis on here.
Because although I've seen more privacy standards
than I've ever seen before,
I've seen more attempts at legislation
to crack down on privacy values than I've ever
seen before at a higher rate. And so it's in reality. And I only urge, and I only do this
time because I really do think the people in the audience, in their network, if they hit up five
people, if can actually get enough momentum to actually make these changes.
Roman Storm in Keon should be parted this month.
If we cannot do that, we cannot build privacy.
Again, these are white American founders with families.
Okay, I like, I see the background of all y'all.
Okay, thinking about the American government is like,
they don't care if you're Canadian, they don't care if you're
Canadian. They don't care if you're Venezuelan. They don't care if anything, if you get in their
way, they'll kill you. No remorse. And the only difference right now with the precedent that's
happening is that right now we're admitting it. Trump is admitting it. Oh, we're taking the oil.
Before that was a low key thing. It's becoming way more flagrant and so it's it's it's it's just absolutely
important that we get these people free now that way they have sympathies and we have a precedence
of like okay privacy founders can be free like it's like that that to me is like it should be
north star number one because that is the only thing we can achieve within a month. Like Ross is free.
Like in anything else, like it's going to take us a month to actually go to production for a lot of these stuff to get audits.
To get like there's nothing that any of us can do in that same time frame.
How many of y'all are building on Archeon?
Like a month?
Like how many months have you been waiting for that to go to mainnet?
many months have you been waiting for to like for that to go to mainnet it's like the the timelines
is completely different with what you could do as a product builder and what you can do um you know
as uh um there but like that that's my that that's my number one my number one goal in january
is to free the guys like it's absolutely freaked like like like keon rodriguez and roman storm like
we have to absolutely free them no lawyer lawyer is talking about this. I'm
talking to lawyers right now. They'll go, oh yeah, I think he's going to get a part. I'm like, no,
you should be the one. You should be the one on Wallahi because you're bringing
founders to a point where we think we're going to get prosecuted. And it's kind of crazy. I have
no doubt that if you guys, any of y'all here, build a privacy product that can get, it can get
funded. It can get billions of dollars. Look, everyone wants to deploy capital now. It's the
biggest, it's literally the number one narrative. Money will come easy when you're building a real
product, okay? But you know what else will come easier? Them handcuffs.'s that should be a huge priority like it's it's never
been hard to build it's been hard to bail so yeah yeah like free the guys
free the boys
I like it it was some cyberpunk type of chat. But you're right.
That's so true that a lot of people in the space,
they don't have this North Star.
And you said, like, you might as well just, like, build fintech.
If you don't really care at the root of the project
or the real privacy or just, like, yeah.
Very cool.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Thanks so much, guys, for being here.
If you have a last word to say, Grox, JP, Anon Mesh,
if you want to close the discussion,
because I will have to go.
It was really nice to have the space.
And Web3 Plug, thank you so much also for sharing your vision
and reminding us what it
takes to really build in that space. Take care guys, lovely day, thanks for sharing, thanks for
having me on the space and take care and thanks for all the explanation and the context, really
appreciate the fun. I'll see you guys later. Thank thank you too thank you as well and please follow our story going along we have a long way to go
from here this has been just the beginning and i'm looking forward to building uh more with you
and beside you and uh yeah let's let's do this soon again cheers have a lovely day excellent good stuff cheers guys thanks very much uh lisa
and uh yeah let's look to have more of these um these spaces uh and uh just discussing you know
what the projects that won and did well in the in the hackathon i think we could um you know it'd be
great to get more support and everything from the from the various ecosystems and the sponsors
but uh let's you know if it's not coming let's do it ourselves cheers guys
thank you so much everyone who just joined bye bye take care Thank you.
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