Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
🧱⛓️ Privacy Series: @idOS_network
Recorded: Nov. 22, 2023 Duration: 1:09:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hey, hey, everybody.
Okay, so we've got some guests joining us on stage now as speakers.
We're also connected in Riverside, so we're just going to do a quick mic check.
Hey, Jaris, can you test your bass's audio?
Yep, GM, GM.
How am I coming in loud and clear?
Celia?
Hello, everyone.
Yep, I'm coming in loud and clear.
Hello, hello.
How are you doing?
Good, good, good.
All right, cool.
We've got some people joining in, and I think we're going to expect quite a few more joining us today.
Okay, so we're going to hop into this in just a second.
All right.
All right.
So, again, how are we coming through in the Twitter space?
Does everybody hear me okay in here in Twitter land?
Yeah, we're coming in loud and clear.
Okay, great.
Well, I think we're pretty much ready to go.
We are recording on both sides.
Welcome, everybody.
We're going to do a quick intro to this space, and we'll get it kicked off.
GM, GM, everybody, and welcome to week four of our blockchain privacy-themed series.
Data privacy and ownership is one of the most important issues of our time, and in today's world, our personal data is constantly being collected and sold, often without our knowledge or consent.
It's used for a variety of purposes, including targeted advertising, surveillance, identity theft, and much, much more.
Bankless DAO is shining a light on the innovative solutions being built around Web3
that will help users take back control of their digital footprint.
Today, we're looking at decentralized identity with IDOS, who are building a Web3 identity layer and aiming to revolutionize the way we manage and control our digital ID in a decentralized world.
But before that, we would like to just shout out our sponsor, who also happens to be part of the IDOS Builders Collective.
Despite what you might think, privacy and Web3 are not synonymous.
Privacy exists on a spectrum, but Web3 can return privacy to its rightful place as an individual choice and makes it negotiable.
Meet Aleph Zero, the blazingly fast public blockchain that balances privacy-enhancing features with tools that enable programmatic compliance.
Protect both your individual data and the competitive advantage of your enterprise with Aleph Zero.
Learn more on alephzero.org.
So, I'm NF Thinker, and as always, I'm joined by my co-host, Jairus James.
Before we start, please note that none of us are financial advisors.
The discussions held here are for educational purposes only and should not be considered financial advice.
Remember, do your own research.
So, Jairus, with all that said, would you like to introduce our guests?
Jim, Jim, and welcome to another AMA.
It's part of our privacy-themed series.
We have two truly exceptional guests joining us today, Luis, who is the co-founder of IDOS and the CGO at Fractal ID.
Previously, he worked at Outlier Ventures, where he led the investment team and executed over 100 investments.
Luis also worked as a senior management consultant for over five years at Simon Kutcher & Partners
and holds a bachelor and two MSC in management and strategic marketing from East State and LSE.
Joining Luis is Ilya, the co-founder of Near Protocol.
Ilya has more than 10 years of industry experience, including three years at Google,
where he was a major TensorFlow contributor and managed the team-building question-answering capabilities
for the core Google search, as well as being the author of several notable research papers.
Ilya has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, CNBC, Bloomberg, Time, Wired, New York Magazine, Forbes, and TechCrunch.
Excited to have you guys on and learn all about IDOS and how it's enhancing the management of digital identities in the Web3 space.
Without further ado, let's dive right in.
Ilya, can you give us a brief rundown of your blockchain origin story
and the kinds of problems that you're personally working to solve?
And also, how has Near been involved in the formation of IDOS?
For sure, yeah.
Thanks for inviting me.
Great to be here.
So, yeah, my kind of, as you mentioned, background is really coming on the AI side.
And I actually left Google to start an AI company, which was called Near AI.
And we were using what pretty much I worked on in Google, which was Transformer Models,
to start teaching machines to program.
Now, this was 2017, and we did not have Microsoft money to build, you know, huge clusters.
And so we were trying to be smarter and get more interesting data.
And so we had a ton of students around the world who were writing small programs for us,
writing descriptions for code for us, and we needed to pay them.
And if anybody ever tried to pay people around the world, it's an extremely hard problem
because every country has very different requirements, has different controls.
Students don't have bank accounts.
And we started looking at blockchain as really a solution to this global payments network problem
that we faced.
And at the time, so 2018, already the fees on Bitcoin and Ethereum were way too high
for the amounts we were paying, which was like 10, 15 cents.
And so we really started thinking, like, how do we get to something that, you know,
can be subset, production fees, can be really quick, easy to use, easy to access for people,
but also easy to build for developers.
And that's really how we went from Neo AI to Neo Protocol, kind of focusing on all of those efforts.
And kind of, you know, fast forwarding, and we launched Mainnet, we built kind of the ecosystem across the board,
but this need to actually have a way to really easily pay people a state there, right?
Even though we have kind of this peer-to-peer way to transfer money, but as soon as you are an organization,
as soon as you are a company that actually provides services, you still have all the same compliance requirements,
like even if you use blockchain, right?
Blockchain is just a tool now, right?
It's a programmatic, efficient tool with subset transaction fees now and, you know,
one second settlement time in their case, but it still requires all the KYC.
And so that's where we started kind of looking around for partners,
and Fractal was somebody who we actually already worked on to do KYC for some of the efforts
to really figure out how do we close this gap?
How do we make sure that as we are paying people or people are participating in various efforts,
there is actually that compliance gap that's closed?
And so, I'm sorry, I was just going to say, and to solve that KYC issue there,
so the way I'm picturing it, like the way that IDOS comes into play,
does it allow for like a user to put up an identifier such as, let's say, a driver's license
and then encrypt that type of data so you can prove that you're the owner of that identifier
without actually having to display that identifier outright to the third party?
Yeah, actually, why don't we just actually let you give Fractal ID a bit of an intro, Luis?
So, yeah, why don't you give us some background on Fractal ID
and what is it you're bringing to the IDOS back?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Thank you, Bangles.
Thank you for having me here and Hailia for also joining us today.
So, my background, and you kind of mentioned before, it's not technical.
I actually come from the business, finance, marketing side of things.
I had a very, I would say, corporate career until around five years from now.
So, everything focused the normal way how the world develops,
how you have companies that become big,
and then there's big companies build wall gardens to keep their users
and to keep their business.
Whenever I moved into Web3, and I did that through mainly through venture capital,
what I realized as well is that there are a lot of solutions in Web3
that are Web3 native, and I am the one, actually the first one,
that came through DeFi NFTs.
But those are solutions that live in Web3 and are for Web3,
but don't transcend into the real world.
So, something that I was thinking is, okay, so what is really needed?
So, we can take these advancements that we have in technology
that we have built into Web3, the composable way of building,
and we can take it to the real world.
And actually, there was not that much interest into it
until I would say one year or one year and a half from now.
But now there are a lot of solutions that actually allow you
to virtually build a Web3 neobank, a composable neobank with many services.
But there's still one missing piece today, which is, in my view, its identity.
Something that allows you to, as Ilya said, blockchains are not exempt of compliance,
but still to be able to take the DeFi financial world and moving into the real world.
And that, I believe, is the way to onboard the next billion users.
That's why I joined as well Fractal AD, and that's why as Fractal AD,
we contributed to build the IDOS, the Identity Operating System,
to have a layer where we can truly have the centralized identity
and go to where people are today, which are the major blockchain ecosystems like NIR.
And also, what was the primary motivation behind creating IDOS?
Like, how did that come about?
And how will that transform the landscape of digital identity?
And would you say digital identity is the same as decentralized identity?
Is this a question for me?
Yes.
Okay.
So, well, I think that identity, I look at the identity of how someone or something,
but especially how someone identifies themselves.
So, what makes someone unique?
Everything has an identity, but not necessarily everything has an identifier.
And that's important, especially on the Internet.
In the regular world, you just go somewhere with a document that the government gave you.
You show that to the person, the person that looks at you.
You're the same one in the picture in the document.
That is how you get identified in most places.
When you move this to the digital world, into what I would call digital identity,
that is much harder.
Why?
Because the person is not physically there, and also the identifier is not physically there,
or the identifier is a piece of code of data.
And you need to make sure that that is not tampered, and that actually belongs to the person that gave it to you.
So, that becomes much more complex.
Then comes the centralized identity, which is what enables these identifiers to not be owned by companies that, in theory, own your identity,
and then they can share with others.
But thanks to blockchain technology and cryptography, now you can have back your identifiers,
and then you can selectively share them.
And that's the vision of the IDS, or the vision of any company that is building the centralized identity today,
which is giving the identifiers back to the user, and then allow the user to connect them anywhere on the Internet.
Okay. So, this is all really about verified identifiers, and being able to verify a specific person saying who they specifically are.
It's almost like bringing humanity into the digital realm, right?
Because we are here to prove that we are a human.
How do we differentiate ourselves, not just from other humans, but also, more importantly,
visible attacks from AI?
AI. So, is that something that you have to constantly combat, is AI identifiers and how people can skirt these sort of KYC requirements through bots?
Is that an issue for you yet?
That can be for either Luis or Elia.
Feel free to take turns on these questions.
So, I can maybe mention a few things.
One is, so, we actually used, well, we started using this Fracto, and now it was IDOS,
expanding for proof of humanity to leverage for our near digital collective, which is our governance elections.
And so, the elections were designed to be one person, one vote.
It was an interesting experiment in the near ecosystem to truly see if we can have, like,
a more equitable, kind of, community voting versus a, you know, plutocratic token voting.
And so, we used, kind of, this approach with, you know, some form of proof of humanity verification to evaluate it.
And then, it's interesting, like, because it leaves an artifact as well that others can use now, because this account went through this verification.
And now you can leverage that in other applications as well.
But I think, broader speaking, for me, kind of, Luis mentioned, like, this neobank idea is, like,
we're trying to really bring, kind of, this, you know, blockchain technology to the level where you, as a user, have homage of your assets, right?
I'm originally from Ukraine.
I mean, we have 100 banks that failed in the past 10 years.
In the past one year or one and a half year now, sadly, like, you know, a bunch failed for a clear reason, right?
And in the West, maybe it's not, like, that a big of a deal.
But in many, many developing countries, it's a real problem.
And so, having an ownership is really important.
And blockchain kind of starts to provide this, but it doesn't connect to, like, a lot of the real world interactions, right?
Again, because of this requirement.
And it's not the humanity requirement per se, right?
It's the fact that you need to prove that you're from this country.
We need to prove that you're not from some country, right?
And so, those things are really important and kind of really block the adoption of this technology, right?
Like, we could all be using, you know, like, Apple Pay card that's backed by Nier account, for example.
Like, it's totally possible.
But we are not because it's really hard to, like, get everybody to approve and remove fees
because they expect a ton of potential AML issues and fraud.
And so, kind of, for me, IDOS is, like, really this direction of, like, how do we move the, you know,
reduce fraud dramatically and make sure that everybody feels that, you know,
there will be no kind of money laundering the way that people expect to happen.
And instead, we have, like, compliant, you know, clear, visible, transparent,
but owned by the user ecosystem of financial products.
I think that transition, right, transformation that needs to happen from, like, in people's minds.
Like, we need tools and kind of frameworks and compliance for that,
but now we need this transformation on the other side to happen.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that just takes us one step closer to permissionless,
truly permissionless banking and trustless banking.
And, you know, not having to, not having to, we were actually just talking about this before.
I'm wearing my bankless card shirt because bankless card is launching soon.
And, you know, we're taking a very traditional approach with our initial car launch,
but long term, we would love to provide more decentralized tools in that payment stack.
And one thing that doesn't exist is a non-custodial fiat account.
A fiat account, unless you're holding cash under your pillow,
all of your cash is in a custodial account through a bank.
I don't know of any other non-custodial banking accounts that are actually out there in the fiat realm.
So, you know, once we can prove that terrorist activity isn't taking place on chain
because this person is linked to an identification and can be slashed,
or however you want to put it, can be penalized somehow if they do something wrong,
that's going to move us towards the fiat system starting to trust us more.
With trustlessness comes trust, I suppose.
So before we go off too far in that direction,
I'd like to just touch on IDOS and the building partners that you have.
I think your site lists five orgs.
So you've got Fractal ID and NIR, both of whom you both work with,
Aleph Zero, Quill, and Gnosis.
So they each bring something different to the stack.
How would you classify each partner's contributions,
and what's it been like working together?
Yeah, well, so I think that this has started,
we were in talks with all these partners of ID before,
and we actually went for it.
What actually made us say, okay, there is a way to go here,
was initially talking to NIR.
So we were talking to NIR, and this was, I believe, in May of 2023,
which is when we started working together.
And we actually saw that there was a need to build identity layer
and understanding an identity layer as a platform that hosts user data,
but that doesn't have a single point of failure.
What happens with most identity verification providers,
and that includes Fractal ID,
is the fact that data is still stored either in centralized servers
or it is stored with the user.
But none of the solutions worked for the use cases that we need today,
especially the financial use cases that require some degree of compliance.
So coming up together to create this network
is really what makes a difference.
Well, to talk a little bit about the contribution of the partners,
so Fractal ID, we have been around since 2017.
We have built a lot of different identity solutions.
We have tried everything.
We have tried identity wallets.
We have tried NFTs for identity.
We have tried monolithic identity change.
We have tried all those setups.
And eventually we found, and we know this already for a while,
that decentralized storage and an access management protocol
is the way to go if we really want to have
fully decentralized chain agnostic identity in Web3.
So that's what we wanted to build,
and the knowledge that we bring is on the identity side.
Quill, they have been working for several years
on relational databases for Web3.
So basically they are the ones that essentially create
this decentralized storage network
that have different node operators that share a consensus.
And then working with NIR as well as Gnosis and AlephZero,
the idea comes from all of these blockchains
having a shared idea with us,
which is we need DeFi to reach the real world.
And in order for that to happen,
we need to figure out the legal sides of it.
Yes, we kind of did already.
We need to figure out the technical side of it,
which we kind of did as well.
But what is more important is we need to figure out the UX side of it.
And saying that we need to fix the UX is very easy,
but actually doing it, it's very, very hard.
One of the main points of pain here is simply the experience around KYC,
the experience around compliance.
So what we're trying to do is to make it more smooth.
And these blockchains, I think, also had this shared idea,
and that's why we're building together.
Perfect.
Anything you'd like to add there, Elia?
Yeah, I completely agree.
It's pretty much identity.
And beyond banking, there's a bunch of other use cases.
As I mentioned, governance has been another one.
But I think generally speaking, as Luis mentioned,
how do we bring identity that's available as a building block
that now can leverage this?
And you do need different pieces to come together for this to really work.
And so, yeah, I'm excited to kind of this coming together.
There's obviously still a ton of work,
but this is not primitive that's available for folks.
And so before we just move on from your partners,
I just wanted to ask,
do you have any external influences who've really helped guide your path here
or any trusted advisors that you've been working with
who have made a big difference in your operation
beyond your five builder communities?
Who have you lent on the most for support?
Is it Ethereum Foundation involved at all?
Any other big foundations or any other token operators out there
who've been your biggest supporters in this?
I mean, well, we had many supporters for many years.
But at the end of the day,
I think that everything comes through the realization
that we really need this in the internet.
I'm not saying Web3.
I'm saying on the internet to actually build internet-based companies
that don't farm user data.
I couldn't be able to think of any specific influence as a person.
I would say that the influence is the market itself
and the natural development that has taken
and how things has gone up and down for several years
and actually until getting the realization
that if Web3 is an echo box
and we have only native use cases for native applications
and the money that comes in doesn't really go out
or it doesn't get put to use,
then that's not going to go anywhere.
But if we can use the advancement in technology from Web3
to apply it to industries that are outside of where we are today,
then I think that makes the whole difference.
So I would say that the best mentor
has been observing the market itself,
being around for a long time
and making sure that you try to adapt to the changes.
Well put.
And we'd like to learn a bit more
about the composability of IDOS.
So, you know, as people contribute to the space,
whether, you know, being a DAO member or what have you,
you know, people would pretty much build their reputation
on, you know, one chain.
So, like, how can users aggregate accounts with IDOS?
Is that possible to be able to manage multiple digital identities
across various blockchains?
And how does iOS differ from something like a disco data pack,
data backpack, for example?
I think before being able to answer that,
I need to explain a little bit of the architecture of the IDOS.
So essentially, the IDOS is, it has two elements.
It has a decentralized storage network of nodes
that has multiple node operators.
Those node operators host user data,
but this user data is encrypted with the user keys,
which means that the only ones
that can actually access the data are the users themselves.
Then you have an access management protocol.
This is nothing else, the smart contract
that can be deployed across different blockchains.
Right now, we have one of these deployed in Nier.
What can we do then?
As a user, now you can either add data yourself
or you can ask anyone to verify some data
and then add that into your private profile
into IDOS encrypted.
So for instance, everyone will trust you
if you want to self-attest that you are vegetarian,
but nobody will trust you if you self-attest
that you have a KYC status
and that you are from a specific country.
We will always need identity verifiers for this bit.
So that's why the idea is that we can have
multiple identity verifiers
that they can issue at the stations
about the data of users
in the form of verifiable credentials.
And then the user is stored these
in their private profile.
Then the user can go anywhere around Web3
where these access management protocols,
smart contracts have been deployed
and any application can ask the user
to share a credential with their data.
For that to happen,
applications just need to install an SDK
or they can do without the SDK,
but it's much easier with the SDK.
It's something that any Web3 developer
should be able to do in a couple of hours.
And what this allows is for any application
or anyone in Web3 virtually,
whenever a user connects to them
with a regular wallet,
which could be any of the near wallets
available today,
like Meteor or my near wallet or here,
or MetaMask at this point as well,
to just agree to share a credential with them.
That's what we call an access grant.
That's something that gets recorded
on the blockchain.
Whenever this happens,
then basically you have a system
where in the one side you have issuers
that are able to issue the stations
against any users.
Users can host data into their own profile
and then applications can very easily
without the need of additional wallets
or plugins or anything
to ask users to share that data.
Maybe to expand on as well from our side,
so totally agree,
like kind of Adirios provides the storage
for private data and other stations.
And then on our side as well,
we've been working on a few things.
One is near accounts in general
are highly kind of come as account obstruction,
come with a lot of kind of functionality preloaded,
as well as we've been building
like a social network
and a lot of other signals on chain
that build up your reputation.
And so it allows,
as I mentioned,
kind of reusing some of this information
to then kind of for next developer
to not needing to get their users
to go through everything,
but you can kind of capture
all the signals directly,
be that, you know,
KYC from attestation
or something from on chain
and leverage it in your apps.
And I think that's kind of fundamentally
what blockchain offers
that you cannot have in that too, right?
It's not like you can easily say like,
oh, you know,
I want to leverage Facebook
and banking and this
and rely on that
and make sure it never disappears.
And like,
as we know,
all of those things disappear all the time.
But the other thing actually
we're working toward
for the multi-chain side
is what we call account aggregation,
where the one near account
will be able to transact
on other chains as well.
And so you'll be able
to use the same information
and kind of the same,
for example,
the stations that you already have
on potentially all those
layer twos and layer ones.
It even supports Bitcoin,
for example.
And so through that,
kind of the idea that
you as a user now
have one place
where you go through
kind of these interactions
and then you can navigate
all apps across all chains,
kind of not needing to think,
you know,
to redo KYC,
to redo the,
you know,
some other compliance checks
to reapply stuff.
And kind of as you do
more interactions,
you gather more and more
kind of on-chain reputation
that allows you
and unlocks you more things.
And I think that's,
again,
like for me,
that's fundamentally
like what we're trying
to bring in blockchains,
like it's this interconnectivity
that stays with you
and is owned by you.
And so I think that,
like to your point
about like where's
developers get benefits from
and how kind of
this composability
can really shine,
I think,
as we see more use cases,
they kind of all got to
adding up
like exponentially
more value to each other.
So you're helping
to build out
this sort of
multi-chain compliance
and composability
infrastructure.
So that's really interesting.
So if I wanted to
create a transaction
on ETH network,
I could,
in theory,
do that through
Adapt on Near.
And that would,
I kind of equate it
in my mind
to bridging in a way,
but it's not really
bridging.
It's,
yeah,
it's unbridging.
Unbridging,
okay.
Yeah,
I mean,
the idea is that
like your,
like think of it as,
you know,
when you sign up
for Coinbase,
right,
you have a Coinbase account
which has your compliance,
which has all this,
except it's custodial.
Now,
but you have addresses
on other chains.
You have address on Bitcoin,
you have address on Ethereum,
you have address on Solana,
you have address on Near,
right?
So imagine that,
but non-custodial.
You have a non-custodial account
which you have IDOS,
you have,
you know,
kind of key management system,
you have recovery,
you have eventually other services.
And then you can,
you have mapped
Ethereum address,
all the letter to addresses,
Solana,
Bitcoin,
et cetera.
And now you can transact
on those addresses
as if,
like,
you were connected
with that address
on that app.
And so,
from a user perspective,
even though,
you know,
all of that complexity
is abstracted,
right?
You just go to an app,
you start using it,
you don't really care
which chain it's on,
you just kind of log in
and you have all,
all of your information
comes with you
and kind of plugs in
in the right place.
Yeah,
yeah,
that's,
it's like going to a website,
right?
Remember when you used to
have to sort of like
allow Flash to work
on your computer
and it was like,
it was super annoying.
That's just a user experience
flaw right there.
And that's a,
it's a huge problem
with blockchain
still to this day.
I mean,
we were trying to do
a multi-sig bridge
of tokens
the other day
and it was like,
why so complicated?
We have a vision
of what this is going
to look like.
We've all been working
on multi-sigs
for two years.
We should know
how to do this.
And,
you know,
it still took us
half an hour
and sitting there
reading through
the documentation,
making sure we're
going to do it right,
do a test first.
It's just,
there's so many
blockers in the way.
So yeah,
the more we can
abstract away
all that complexity,
the better off we'll be.
So touching back
onto the de-storage network,
how does that
ensure data security
and privacy?
So you mentioned
that the data
is being
decentrally hosted,
hosted in
a decentralized manner
and that access
what,
through a key shard?
Is that,
how is the privacy,
sorry,
how is the
login?
Well,
so you log in,
and by the way,
what Hylia was
mentioning now
is exactly what I meant
by improving the UX.
It's not making
nicer applications
with better UI.
It's actually
reducing the friction
of all these systems.
And I think
that we went
into the,
in the last
months,
I would say,
because this was
very fast
from going into
horizontal,
a lot of blockchains
went next to each other
and all of them
doing the same
to then kind of
build it into
a modular approach.
And I think that
now we need to go
from the modular approach
to even the real world,
which is even more
challenges when it comes
well,
compliance,
for instance.
But yeah,
so to answer your question,
you,
you basically
unlock your profile
with,
right now
as a password,
which is something
that's going to,
it's going to change
soon to probably
be a passkey.
And then you also
log in with your wallet.
So you can connect
different wallets
into that.
You authenticate
those wallets.
So basically,
the nodes know
that that is you,
the one that is acting
there.
Your data is also
encrypted with your
key pair,
which means that
nobody can see
this data,
only you.
If someone were
to hack one of the
nodes,
they wouldn't be able
to see anything.
They would be able
to see that there
are some credentials,
but they wouldn't be
able to see
the content of it
or make anything
out of that
because they wouldn't
be able to decrypt
that.
They will have to do it
one by one
for each one
of the users.
How is it privacy
preserving?
And I think that
that's an interesting
question.
So, well,
first of all,
you have your data.
You own your data.
You were talking,
Jairus,
before about
data backpack.
It's a similar concept.
It's like you have
a place where you
have all the data
and then you can
selectively decide
what you share
with whom.
Right now,
the way it works
is that you would
have multiple
credentials.
So, if I'm
going with
working with NDC,
I will only share
my proof of personhood
credential with NDC.
I'm not going to
share my full
KYC status that
says where I live
or what's my full
name because
that is not needed
if the only thing
that I need to do
is to prove that
I'm a unique human
being inside the
network.
In the future,
there's many
other things
that you can do.
One of the reasons
we're working
with Aleph Zito
is because we're
also working
on ways
that you can
use ZK proofs
to actually
just prove
some elements
without really
sharing them.
There's very
exciting ideas
with homomorphic
encryption,
for instance,
where if you
have a bunch
of data
in your profile,
you would be able
also to prove
multiple claims
by just looking
into that data
but without
sharing that data.
So, it's
something in general
that is very
interesting
and there are
a lot of
solutions here
but first we need
to build a layer
where this data
is stored
in a secure way
and then we can
build applications
on top
that can improve
how we share
data and how we
make it even
more privacy
preserving.
okay, all right,
that makes sense
and is this
fully managed
by the Quill team
or how are they
taking part
in this effort?
They,
well,
they developed,
I mean,
they developed
a protocol
for you
and now you're
going to have it
as an in-house effort?
they developed
the network
and then they
are one
or they're
going to become
soon one
of the node
operators.
Same as
hopefully
Nier,
same as
hopefully
Gnosis,
same as
hopefully
Aleph Zero.
That's likely
going to happen
soon.
This is very
new,
by the way.
Like,
this is live
since the 8th
of November.
it literally
has been
two weeks
but the idea
is to have
these different
parties that
secure the data.
Sorry,
is that a clap?
Round of applause
for that.
It's incredible
news.
You know,
I reached out
to you
not too long
ago to talk
about an AMA
for Fractal ID
and you were
excited to share
this with us.
I'm glad
that we got
the opportunity
to talk about
it today
for sure.
Awesome.
All right,
now,
jumping back
into the
access management
protocol here.
I understand
that the data
here is encrypted
and you have
the ability
to share
what type
of identifier
that you would
like to share
with a particular
entity.
But,
what does
the UI
look like?
What's the
actual experience
here for an
ability to
invoke,
let's say,
access to a
certain identifier?
What's the
experience like?
Yeah,
what's important
to understand
here is that
the ID.
is on the
back end.
it's a network
of nodes
and it's a
protocol.
It is
not a
dap.
We have
built
daps on
top of
or there's
ways how
you can
deal with
IDOS.
If you
go to
dashboard.idos.network,
there you can
see a user
dashboard in
which you
can log in
and then you
can see your
credentials,
you can see
who they are
shared with
and very
soon you
will be able
to manage
control from
there as
well.
We also
work with
the Nier
team and
if you
go to
nier.org
in your
profile,
you can
also see
one of
those
dashboards
that has
been built
by Nier
themselves.
But the
cool thing
about this
thing that
we're creating
is that
anyone can
build whatever
frontend they
want.
Anyone can
build any
application that
actually relies
on this
data, ask
user for
consent to
access this
data and
then build
an analytics
platform or a
messaging platform
or a reputation
layer on top of
So there
are many
things that
can be built
on top and
essentially the
UX and the
experience that
users have will
evolve as it
goes.
Another side to
add, so Nier
has been
developing
decentralized
frontends,
which is a
framework to
have not
just kind of
the normal way
where we build
smart contracts,
cool, they're
decentralized, but
then the way to
access them is
through my
website.
And so
kind of the
way the
decentralized
frontends work
is actually the
source code for
the frontend
itself is
stored on
chain and
is rendered
directly on
the user
side.
But this
framework allows
not just
near frontends,
it allows
frontends for
all the
chains and
all the
apps.
And the
idea here,
again, to
add more
composability is
to development
and specifically
with IDOS,
again, enable
this really
quick way to
kind of embed
information that's
already there
on the
user to
new apps.
So you don't
even need to
build smart
contract because
you already
have IDOS,
you have the
smart contract
of the IDOS
is on
chain, and
so you can
have a
really quick
piece that
pulls this
information for
your app
directly in
one of those
components on
decentralized
finance, and
you can embed
that either into
existing website
or in your
kind of own
decentralized
gateway.
And that is
kind of from
perspective of
what is UX,
right, like
allows developers
to kind of
build any
experience they
want around
this information.
And that's
kind of the
power here is
that it's a
composable
Lego block
that with
composable Lego
blocks of
frontends, you
can now embed
everywhere.
And this can
be, you know,
like information
for them being
passed, like
when you do
something for
smart contract
validation, it
can be something
that's used when
you're looking
through, you
know, your
feed, for
example, in a
social network
that these
people are
humans, right,
and not bots,
it can be
something else,
right, like you
can kind of use
it in all of
those different
aspects, right.
Imagine you
could go on
Twitter right now
and say I only
want to see
non-bots, right,
and kind of
getting your
feed cleaned
up, like I
don't want to
see the replies
from bots.
That kind of
the benefit is
like those
building blocks
now give you
that user is
in control,
they're able
to, and
kind of
developers can
give them
really quickly
those different
combinations.
Nice.
Okay, so now
pivoting from a
user perspective,
let's look at
the nodes.
So are
people, are
operators allowed
to set up
their own nodes
or can you
tell us a
little bit more
about setting
up a node
in the
dStorage
network?
And then
what sort
of benefits
do node
operators
receive in
the IDEAS
ecosystem?
So, I
mean, in
the shorter
term, this
is going to
become a
fully
decentralized
permissionless
network.
In the
shorter term
until that
happens, which
is going to
be in some
months from
now, it
is a
little bit
more like a
federation.
So you
will have
node
operators,
we will
have to,
I think
there's always
a balance
that especially
when it comes
to compliance
is very
hard to
strike, which
is how
much it
is centralized
and at
what speed.
So what we're
going to have
in the near
term is
actually, no
pun intended,
by the way,
it's a bunch of
node operators
that are and
have contributed
to the
development of the
network, which
is the building
partners, for
instance.
At some point,
this is going to
become a
decentralized
network, so
even though
there's going to
be very likely a
limited number of
nodes, the
way that you can
become a node
operator comes
through some
sort of delegated
proof-of-stake
system or some
details that we're
still working on
and we will
publish soon.
The benefits of
being a node
operator is
similar to the
benefits that you
get from being a
node operator in
any traditional,
well, traditional,
in any blockchain.
Essentially, there's
a percentage of
the value that gets
distributed through
the network, and
as a node
operator, you
should capture
some of that
value.
But yeah, I
think it's a
little bit
technical if we
get into the
details, and I'm
not the best
person in the
team to talk
about that, but
we can share
some more
information later
Okay, and
now I would
like to focus
more so on
widespread
adoption here.
So, like, what
technical challenges
do you think
still remain before
IDOS becomes a
mainstream identity
solution for the
general public?
I mean, we've
seen a lot of
pushback on
WorldCoin, so
like, how does
your approach
simplify the
process for
creating and
managing digital
identity?
Should I go
first?
Yeah.
Well, so I
think identity
is scary.
Nobody wants to
identify themselves.
Nobody is
identifying themselves
for the sake of
identifying themselves
and say, hey, I
am identified.
People do that
because they want
to access
something or
they want to
access somewhere.
So I think
that in order
to succeed in
the centralized
identity, the
focus shouldn't
be on the
user.
I mean, to
get as many
users as
possible, the
focus should be
into building
the best
experience that
works on the
background and
then it allows
other front
ends, like the
ones that NIR is
building, for
instance, to
actually be able
to be more
composable and
to make sure
that identity
may feel
seamless, that
identity is
managed by
users in a
self-sovereign
way and that
at the same
time you know
who has the
data at all
times and they
have the data
because they
have been
allowed to
have that
data.
So that's
how I look
into it.
There's some
players in
Web3, not
getting into
names and
not in Web3,
that they went
through a more
user-focused
approach and
that they kind
of vote those
identities from
users.
And I think
that that doesn't
work because
people don't
feel loyalty or
whatever provider
has onboarded
them.
People don't
use Google or
the login with
Google because
login is a,
sorry, because
Google is a
login provider
into Web2.
They use it
because it
provides a lot
of value to
them and a lot
of utility.
And then that's
why there are a
lot of users that
use it and
therefore you can
log in with
Google.
But I think
that that is not
the way that we
should go.
We should go the
way where we're
in the back,
making sure that
different
applications can
work on a
fluid way and
a seamless way.
And it does
seem like Google
is providing that
composability
throughout the
Web2 ecosystem
anyway, right?
You can sign in
kind of anywhere
with Google,
but you know,
at least I know,
every time I sign
in with Google,
I feel like I
can see their
watchful eye
tearing into my
transactions or
data or
activities,
online activities,
whatever I'm
doing.
So, of course,
this is what it's
all about is
bringing back
that privacy
around your
identity.
I've been
exploring KYC
quite a bit over
the past two
years, working
within Bankless
DAO and then
getting into
Bankless Card
ecosystem.
And there are
some unique ways
of doing it,
but realistically,
they're all sort
of controlled by
some sort of
centralized entity.
now, I guess
that kind of
brings up a
question that's
been in the
back of my
mind since we
first met in
July, Luis.
So, when you
do have, let's
say you have
somebody who's
been added to
a sanctions
list and
people want to
know that,
they don't want
to do business
with people who
they don't agree
with, is there
some way of
updating people's
identity markers
to sort of
add red flags
that people can
choose to
either accept
or ignore to
their own peril?
Yes, there are
multiple ways of
doing it.
I think compliance
when it comes
especially to
IML is more
tricky because
as an identity
verifier, big
fractal ID here,
you can verify
someone's documents
and a status at
a specific point,
then you can
issue a credential
to this person,
but maybe in
one year from
now, whenever
we use that
credential and
still all their
documents are not
expired, maybe
their AML
status, for
instance, changes.
So how can we
make sure that we
have a system
that allows for
data mutability
and that at the
same time it
allows to make
sure that you
have a constant
monitoring of
these things?
And that's very
tricky, but as it
is very tricky and
it's a very big
challenge, there
are actually many
companies that are
working on
solutions here.
Something that's
important to
understand is that
the verifiable
credentials in the
ADS, they are
mutable, this
means they
evolve, they
change depending
on a change in
the status, the
schema that is
inside the
verifiable
credentials, I
mean, which
means that if
for you it's
important to do
an AML check,
everyone does a
transaction with
you, which might
depend on the
use case that
you have, you
can send as
well these people
for verification.
There's other
solutions as well
where we work on
a smart contract
basis that
constantly monitor
if a wallet has
entered into
some kind of
sanctions list.
With the
idea as this
actually brings
another very
interesting use
case, which
is that these
solutions could
even ask user
for access to
their KYC and
then they could
also check right
away in a smart
contract if this
person with a
name has entered
into a sanction
list besides their
wallet.
There's a
personal AML,
there's a wallet
AML.
So all this is
something that
having a layer
that has
multiple
identity layers
on itself can
help to, and
then anyone can
connect to that.
So the
applications that
offer these
services can
offer the
solution in a
much more
simpler way
than if they
also had to
KYC everyone.
Okay.
And so from
your end, from
near, I know
you guys are
doing payments
out to people
you need to
fit into that
compliance box.
is there
anything that
you have
requested along
the way,
Ilya, so
you could
either, I'm
still trying to
wrap my mind
around this
whole mutable
credentials thing.
So how have
you leveraged
this within
near itself or
is that not
something that
you're particularly
concerned with?
I mean, it's
obviously, you
know, the
potential sanction
list should be
concerning for
everyone.
So, and
it's an
important part
of the
identity in
general.
So I think,
yeah, maybe
from our
side, just
kind of to
explain as
well, I
see this as
important piece,
you know, across
a bunch of
use cases,
right?
But, you
know, starting
to build it
up in
general, it
starts with
people coming
in, right?
So it's on
wrap.
Right now, if
you think of
exchanges, right,
exchanges doing
that job, they're
doing KYC,
they're doing
compliance, they're
doing custody
and they're
doing on-ramp
and then kind
of, you know,
they're keeping
you there because
you're already
right through all
this.
And so we
have alternative
on-ramps,
right, kind
of, but with
each individual
one, you need
to re-KYC
again, you
know, they
have like
different amounts
of requirements,
there's all
kind of complexity
there.
And so I
think the
first step
there is
really getting
a DOS
adopted by
its own
ramps such
that, you
know, if
your account
has went
through this,
you know,
certification
already, you
can just go
and, you
know, use
your credit
card or use
your debit
card through
this.
And, you
know, it
actually should
be beneficial
for them to
do this because
it actually
reduces risks
on their
side of
fraud as
well, which
reduces their
fees, right?
So like
there's a
win-win there
which they
should start
to see now
as we're
getting this
adoption going
because, you
know, like
biggest problem
with on-ramps
right now is
fraud rates.
And so this
can really
reduce them.
And like if
you see an
account that's
been like, for
example, my
account on
chain, you
know, three
years, like
a ton of
transactions, right?
And I'm
trying to
on-ramp and
I have my
DOS ID, right?
And it's been
there as well
for, you
know,
a few months
already, for
example, like
the rate and
my DOS, you
know, credential
name matches
my credit
card, the
probability of
fraud is, you
know, extremely
low, right?
So like things
like that, you
can start
accumulating
this data to
actually truly
reduce the
actual problems,
not just that
three to
Web2, right?
So that's
that piece.
Same pieces
on off-ramp
as well, right?
Like that's
one of the, you
know, as you
mentioned right
now, you're
launching a
card, but
you're probably
doing it very
much like Web2
style.
using some
Web2, KYC
provider, maybe
even Fractal, and
using to store
data on their
centralized database,
right?
Like that's kind
of the, but you
can now use
IDOS, you can
leverage a
non-custodial
account, right?
for example,
for example,
near, near
account support
managed transactions
so you can
actually like, as
you charge the
credit card, it
directly can
withdraw from the
account and
transfer it to
the, you
know, settlement
so you can
have a full
non-custodial
experience with,
with the card
itself, right?
So those kind
of like, you
know, starting to
extend.
Then you layer
on more
experiences, right?
So I mentioned,
you know,
participating in
governance,
participating in
discussions,
participating in
other places.
you can have
information there
and like cross
certification that
you can get from
this.
And like for us,
the big important
part as well has
been, you know,
the underlying
platform is
censorship
resistant, it's
open, it's
permissive for
everyone, right?
But kind of
through any of
the lenses we
look at, right,
we want to
provide a safe
experience.
We want to
provide experience
where people,
you know, will
not be facing
something that at
least like when
they come there,
they don't
expect.
And so that's
important to
create a way
to have this
kind of safety
and moderation
that's community
first for
applications and
so-called
gateways in our
case on top of
this permissionless
open network,
right?
So you can have
everything going
on here, but
if you go to
near.org, for
example, which is
fully provided
from blockchain,
every single
web page, every
single piece of
content and the
whole social network
there is coming
from blockchain,
right?
But at the
same time, you
know, that means
there can be
anything there.
And so there
is a moderation
layer as well
that's added that
allows to have
kind of additional
filtering and
kind of ways to
represent information
to the consumer
while, you know,
if you want to
go and you can
actually, you
know, find all
the original data
on chain.
So that's kind
of the pieces
that, you know,
as they're framing
together, like
that's how we get
adoption.
Adoption is coming
not from like,
oh, you should
go and get
an ID, right?
I mean, we're not
government to do
that.
It's like, hey,
actually, as you're
going on RAM, the
first time you do
it, you will still
do a KYC, but
since then you
don't need to do
it because you
actually have this
ID already linked
to your, you know,
wallets or, and you
can, you know, reuse
it into multiple
wallets, for example.
And then as you're
going out, as you're
using card, as you're
using this, like you
get all those
benefits, right?
And as you upping
amounts, maybe you
need to add additional
information, and then
it's reusable again
across all the
other places.
Yeah, and you
touch into something
that's very
important.
You can do all
that because the
data is decentralized,
like, and it can be
shared as use, as long
as there's user
consent.
The reason why
Fractal ID or any
identity verification
provider stores data
in a centralized way
until today is not
because we want to,
it's because we have
to, especially if
you're going to look
into compliance, there's
no other solution
that will work, that
will ensure that the
data is not going to
be deleted, and that
when a obligated
entity or regulator
comes to you, you
will be able to
provide to them.
These changes with
ADOS.
We build ADOS in
mind with compliance
bits, so you can
still ensure the
centralization, you
can ensure that if
one of the nodes
are fractal ID
disappears, the whole
network still works.
You can ensure as
well that you are the
one that has the
data, who has access
to that data you can
see at all times, and
we built it on its
core to make it
possible, and then build
all those other
composable layers on
top that Delia is
mentioning.
That wouldn't work if
we have a bunch of
multiple centralized
servers.
So that's enabled
thanks to this as
well.
Absolutely.
So maybe before we
wrap up here, because
we're coming towards the
end of the hour, in
terms of ecosystem
growth and
collaboration, so
obviously working with
three different
blockchains is
fantastic, and I see
IDOS as hopefully
expanding into all the
EVM chains and
probably Cosmos.
Do you see yourself
providing identification
layers for Bitcoin in
some way, shape, or
form?
What's on your roadmap
there?
So first of all, it's
not us as in any of the
partners today.
Anyone can fork the
smart contract that is
on Ethereum today and
put it on Polygon or
any other EVM chains in a
rather easy way.
So this can work in a
way that can grow
naturally, not by any of
the building partners that
we have today.
But yeah, the idea is
definitely to grow.
I mean, we say this is
chain agnostic.
This says it can go
everywhere into Web3.
I mean, yes, but it
needs to touch some
layers of blockchain just
for making sure that
when a transaction
happens, it gets
recorded somewhere and
taking that as a
benefit.
However, it is not as
the core team building
it today.
That's not the main
concern that we have.
The main concern that
we have today is to
improve, because we
really need to do it, the
UX of the whole system.
We need to make sure that
we get into all the
layers and we are
working with three
blockchain ecosystems that
have a very similar
vision that has taken a
very strong stance into
making identity core at
the blockchain level and
use it to make sure that
there is more
composability, that
there's applications that
talk to each other, that
we have a cross-chain kind
of Web3, and that we can
go to the real world with
DeFi or other type of
solutions.
So our main priority is to
improve the UX of the
whole system, making it
more seamless.
We want to make it
transparent pretty much,
and that actually works in
those blockchains.
And then later on, we
will consider to grow in
other places.
But as I said, anyone can
take it and grow it
wherever they want.
Yeah.
As I mentioned, from our
side, we are working on
this multi-chain, we call
them remote accounts and
account aggregation.
And so there will be
actually a way to leverage
near accounts, kind of
like linkage to identity
on other chains as well.
And so through that, you
can actually get access to
all the chains that will be
supported, which will
include Bitcoin.
Bitcoin and, yeah, pretty
much anything that has
ED, ECTSA and ED
2.9 cryptography.
You know, something else
that came to mind as we had
this conversation here
today, I was thinking like
IDOS basically can be used
for improving operational
security as well, right?
Because now you're not
putting your data on a
centralized server, if you
will now it's on a
decentralized network.
So when that limit data
breaches, for an example,
like since your data is
stored that way, there's
something that came to
mind.
Yeah, no, I mean, I
could definitely do that.
Like you don't have a data
honeypot.
You don't have a place that
if you hack, you can get
data from a million users
because the data is
encrypted with each user
keys, which means that you
can access one at a time
with one quick key.
So yes, that adds more
security into the system.
What it also adds security
is that you have multiple
nodes.
So one node being
compromised or one node
being off from the system
doesn't mean that the
whole system is off, which
also adds security in this
way.
Yep.
So you remove that central
point of failure there.
Nice.
And then are there any
upcoming features or
developments in the IDOS
roadmap that you're most
excited about before we
close here?
What's the, what are some
of the newer, like, are
there any apps that are
being built on IDOS that
you're specifically
playing about?
So we, we saw many use
cases, like from the near
ecosystem, we use people
that wanted to use it for
voting.
So proof of personhood, we
saw people that wanted to
build reputation scores on
top.
We saw people that they just
wanted to build it for
regular compliance.
So as a substitute of KYC.
So there are a lot of use
cases that, that, that can
be taken care of by, by the
IDOS.
And there's many that are
evolving.
What I'm very excited about
as well is, well, what we're
doing in terms of really
improving the UX of this,
like our goal is that as a
user, you are interacting
with Web3, with your regular
crypto wallets, and then
your wallets ask you if you
want to share some data.
So actually that you don't
really feel that the IDOS is
there.
Right now it's not like this.
Right now we can't really
improve the UX, but that's
going to happen very soon.
Actually by end of year, we're
going to have a very, a much
better system.
We're working on deleting
additional passwords and
working with a system that
is similar with what NIR has
today with fast off.
So working with pass keys.
We're also working with
session keys, session keys
and similar ways to be able
to abstract some of the
complexity and many of the
signatures that would happen
into the system, but still
making sure that we have
the degree of the
centralization that we want
and the degree of security
that we want.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it always comes back to
that, right?
Decentralized first approach.
Try and maintain that
decentralized stack.
Centralize in your efforts
and your knowledge, but
decentralize everything else.
Keep it as sort of
immutable as possible.
Awesome.
So, yeah.
So how can people who are
listening get involved and
what roles can they play in
shaping the future of IDOS?
Well, so as I said, this is a
public network and it's going
to become more and more, more
and more public very soon.
If you are a user and you want
to use the IDOS, you can go to
near.org and you can just use
your regular .near profile to
also get a credential that you
can see from there and you
will be able to use in
different applications on the
near ecosystem first and then
anywhere else from that very
profile.
If you are an application, you
can install the SDK today.
Anyone can do it.
It's free.
You can just put it in your
app and then you can ask
people or users that connect a
wallet to your application to
also share a credential that
they have in the IDOS or send
them through an onboarding
journey through one of the
issuers.
And if you're an issuer and
you're looking actually into
issue credentials, you can
also use the IDOS.
So it's something that also
works through the SDK today,
but in theory, everyone would
be able to use it.
More information, just go to
IDOS.network.
There you would find all the
relevant links and all the
docs that we have.
GitHub, everything is open
source.
You can see all the
repositories there.
So, yeah, just looking forward
to work with anyone.
If anyone thinks that it makes
sense to work together, very
happy to consider that.
And if there's one thing that
we're missing is actually more
people to build together with
this.
We have a lot of applications
that want to integrate.
We have a lot of things that we
know we have to fix and time is
actually the resource here that
is more restrained.
So if anyone wants to come and
build together with us, they're
welcome to do so.
So, okay.
Ilya, anything you'd like to
add before we wrap this space
No, I think, I mean, definitely
go to Near the Door.
There is a ton of apps being
built there, not just on
Near, but across all the
blockchains.
And, you know, people are
starting to use, there's like,
you know, I think, Yellow,
Checkmark or whatever.
For example, app, which is, you
know, that you are a human
verification.
So like you can start from that
fork it and start, you know,
going crazy with this.
So, but also you can, you know,
obviously leverage the
commutation from Ideas Network and
build more new cool things.
But yeah, kind of check out
Near the Door.
You know, you can discover
components, you can search for
them, and you can, you know, as
you sign up, you can start
exploring with the developer
ecosystem that's there.
Okay, perfect.
So builders, get building.
Get out there and start
asking questions, you know.
For me, this looks amazing.
I'd really like to be able to
build this into some of the
projects I'm working on right
now.
And so, yeah, we'll definitely be
in touch on that side.
Jairus, anything you wanted to
add before we wrap up here?
Really enjoyed the conversation.
I definitely would like to
test out IDOS.
Like, currently in Rarible, we're
working on a delegate score, and
we pretty much determined that
based off of forum participation,
the quality of the post that was
made, who are actually engaging
with the users, and then their
voting history on tally as well.
You know, creating a delegate score
out of that, and then also like to
take that further and create on-chain
achievement badges for certain work
that's done and certain levels of
participation on forum as well.
And that would be represented on,
you know, whatever chain we decide
to launch that CT on, whether it
be, you know, whatever L2 we
decide to use.
But what I'd like for that, I
identify her to be used across
multiple blockchains here, and I
see that IDOS in there.
They definitely help in that
regard.
So, yeah, definitely expect to be
here from soon.
I'd love to test this out for
myself and for these other DAOs that
I'm currently a part of.
Nice.
Okay.
Yeah, so plenty of room for
collaboration here between Bankless
DAO people, IDOS people, NIR and
Fractal ID, and all the rest of the
partners involved in the IDOS stack.
So super excited to see what's going
to come out of all these different
building efforts.
Yeah, thanks a lot to the IDOS
team for joining us today, or should
I say, Ilya from NIR and Luis from
IDOS for joining us today.
You know, we really enjoyed having
you guys here and presenting for the
Bankless DAO community.
I think our community was really
looking forward to this one as well.
I posted about it in the forums, and
somebody was excited to hear about
it because he's actually building with
IDOS himself in one of his
projects.
So, yeah, so we're just keeping the
flame going here.
Follow IDOS on IDOS underscore
network at Twitter, and check out
their website to see how you can get
further involved.
Quick ad read for the way out from
our sponsor, LF Zero, who you'll be
hearing more about from next week.
I'm actually going to, before we
finish this, I'm going to share a
tweet from, for the space for next
week as well, so anybody can join on
to that.
LF Zero, build programmatic privacy
solutions with LF Zero.
You'll be joining a thriving ecosystem
of applications that are developing
fast and scaling easily in a Wasm
environment with near-instant
transaction finality.
Working on privacy-focused apps
doesn't have to be complicated with the
right infrastructure.
Follow LF Zero on X at
alef0 underscore underscore zero, sorry,
alef underscore underscore zero, and
learn more on alef0.org.
So next week, we'll be joined by the
CEO.
We're going to hear all about that.
And quick reminder just to everybody
that we're not financial advisors.
We are from Bankless DAO.
We're on a mission to create user-friendly
on-ramps for people to discover
decentralized financial technologies
through education, media, and culture.
We have a healthy ecosystem of builders,
designers, community managers, and governance
leaders working tirelessly at the frontier
of the blockchain ecosystem.
Join us today by visiting our website
and our Discord and saying hi.
And until next time, folks, until next week,
we shall see you in the Twitter and see you
around the different builder groups online.
And if you have anything that you'd like
to share with us, feel free, reach out
in the DMs.
If you want to get in touch with Luis and
Ilya, you got their handles here.
Shout out.
Give them a follow.
Say what's up.
So thanks a lot, everybody, for yet again
one other space.
And we'll see you next week.
Thank you, Randy.
Take it easy, everyone.
Bye-bye.
Thank you, guys.
Take it easy.
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
Yeah, happy Thanksgiving.
That's right.
I'm American living in the UK,
so I'm going to celebrate in my own way.
Nice.
All right.
Peace out.
See you, guys.
See you, guys.
