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Pronoia art on Tezos monthly: Digital and physical spaces for art
Recorded: Jan. 12, 2024 Duration: 1:11:48Space Recording
Full Transcription
Good evening, everyone.
I'm just waiting for Underground Joe to connect to the spaces and we can start having him on as our first guest talking about the platform.
And then we'll go into a more general community discussion about you guys' art, digital art versus physical art spaces, how you see that relationship.
I think it will be an interesting conversation.
I would also love to hear from you guys what would be a good format for these kinds of monthly spaces.
I want to get into all the different subsets of art on Tessels.
I'm totally open to suggestions for next month or the months after.
I want to keep this a proactive community thing.
I want to get you guys' input.
But for now, we're just going to wait a little bit for Underground to join the call and listen to what he has to say.
Also, can you guys hear me clearly?
Hello, hello.
Hey, how's it going?
Very good.
How are you?
Good, good, busy, stressed, excited.
All the emotions a person can feel.
Right, right.
I heard you had some water problems.
I hope that's all right now.
It is.
I made a joke in the Discord on Wednesday that I should have apologized and warned everyone that has offered to help me out with everything.
That I am cursed.
And any time I try to do something to better my situation as well as others, the universe tries to throw a big wrench in the works.
And Wednesday, it threw everything it had at me and my wife and my daughter.
So I hope I'm on to something good is what that means, I think.
That's good positivity to hear.
Yeah, so I wanted to do a monthly space just to kind of introduce what I'm trying to do here.
So since joining Trillitech, I've noticed that community calls are often pretty hectic.
They go from artist to artist pretty quick.
They sometimes don't really stop on a certain topic.
They mostly just spin through the artist and then it's over.
So I would like to get a more holistic view of the Tesla's community, get community input on what to talk about.
And today I thought I would like start it out with a subject that I think is very interesting.
And that is like physical galleries versus digital spaces for both showcasing and selling artworks.
And I thought I would invite someone who has experience in both, which I think you're a great candidate for.
So I would love to get into a little bit of like why do you love gallery spaces versus why do you love digital spaces and how do those two connect?
So first of all, for people around here that don't know, and maybe a little bit for me as well, because I've been reading up a little, but I would like to know a little bit more.
What is underground or am I saying it right or should I say underground?
Someone else that I'm friends with suggested it be called underground because of the grammatic symbol across the top of underground, because that would be the correct pronunciation for it.
But underground is the correct pronunciation for it.
So, yeah, this idea kind of started about three years ago when I first got into the space.
I don't know how many people will relate to this.
I'm, you know, an older millennial, but in the early 2000s, there was this kind of surge of indie music that came out of Napster and music blogs at the time.
And a lot of artists and musicians at the time were getting their fair shot to be seen by larger record labels and larger music publications.
And when I came into the space, like, you know, I got started on Nifty Gateway and traveled to OpenSea and kept kind of looking around.
And I didn't see anything that was really focused on, you know, people just starting out and people like on the bottom.
So, you know, the guys that hired me as like a freelance writer, I told them, I was like, this is something that's like needed in the space.
So I pitched them the idea and they like just supported it and kept giving me the freedom to develop the idea.
So now three years later, you know, I'm in charge of underground and we built a gallery and I have this publication that features a lot of lesser known artists.
Right around the time that I told them the idea, Hickett Milk started cropping up.
And I was like, guys, like, this is like the beginning of the indie underground movement that I want to develop.
And so like the idea was to purchase art from small artists rather than just start another blog and just write about stuff.
I think there's a lot of Twitter NFT influencers that tried to put on the persona of wanting to support art and feature artists, but really kind of take the attention to themselves.
And I think it's anyone can write something and get a following.
I think it's another thing to actually put money into the artist's hands that you are talking about as well, too.
So we've always believed that in this positive reinforcement, I'm giving artists not only the context that they so desperately need in the space and this validation that they're seeing.
They deserve also to share in the wealth as well and giving that to them to get started is enough to keep them motivated and stay in the space and go on to bigger and better things.
And we featured a lot of artists once Hickett Milk went down, we kept going on to object and we kept searching for artists and a lot of them have gone on to be getting on to super rare and some of the bigger platforms, too.
So, and I don't think that is because I've done anything different or special, I've just done what was needed, but I like to hope that I gave them the encouragement or at least just the energy to know that people appreciate their work.
I don't know anything about art, my degree is in literature, but there's enough connection between the two that I'm able to see their work, appreciate it, and understand the feelings and emotions behind it.
And I can convey that to other people who also don't know about art.
So, um, while the artists, um, that have gone on to get recognized by larger collectives and, uh, Cosmo, uh, Medici and super rare and those, um, that's because of them, not because I helped lift them up.
I just want to see everyone succeed.
And I think a lot of people benefit from, uh, being seen on the bottom.
To, so that's been kind of where I go and where underground came out of, and a lot of the branding that I've, and the idea behind it, I've built into it.
Oh, great.
Like I, it's what I hear a lot on Tesla's, right?
Like, um, people really searching for an opportunity to get heard or feeling, feeling unheard.
And it's great that we have these kinds of spaces to uplift creators.
And I, I also noticed the, the physical gallery.
Could you, could you tell me a little bit about like your connection with the physical gallery and how that ties into underground as a whole?
Yeah, sure.
Um, that was always part of the plan, um, to give, um, artists, smaller artists, the opportunity to be in a physical space.
It's, um, we, uh, built it about two years ago.
Um, it's in Australia.
I am over in the U S um, so I don't have direct access to it.
And what we found over the last year with the bear market and everything too, it's really hard to coordinate, uh, putting on shows.
Um, but when we opened it up, um, and we started, you know, recording small videos for like marketing purposes and stuff, we noticed that, uh, people within the area and, um, bigger investors and business people started to take us a lot more seriously.
So we started making new connections to bigger develop, uh, developer firms and, um, investors that, um, we've caught their interest.
It's, um, that extra layer of validation for smaller artists that gives them, um, that, uh, foundation and that credibility to the real world.
Um, um, because I think a lot of people still have the perception that digital art and the crypto space isn't real life and there's no real world uses, but the second they see a brick and mortar store with digital frames featuring, uh, these artists that, um, have this freedom with digital moving images, uh, they start to see, oh, wow.
This could actually be something that's, uh, uh, beneficial to the real world.
And they start to understand that there's something different there.
So, um, I think, uh, like you were saying, like you want to talk about the difference between digital and physical galleries.
I think there's that the physical, the digital galleries give us the access across the globe to it, but still having something physical where we can go and talk to people.
Meet people that are interested in web three and art is still something very important to building community.
Um, I enjoy talking to all the friends I've made, uh, over the past two years online and doing video calls with them.
But, um, I'm going to a local gallery tonight with, uh, some of the friends I've made in web three.
And, um, um, at first I was hesitant and I was like, ah, do I like, you know, need to go to a physical gallery and meet people?
And the first show I went to there, uh, I immediately understood the value of just like being around people.
I think we, a lot of us feel isolated in this space, um, and being around people that are local to you that, uh, understand what's happening, um, in the art space gave me like this rejuvenated energy that, um, I desperately needed, um, at the worst of the bear market.
When I wasn't sure that underground would be continuing and I'd be going back to teaching and those have become some of my, uh, closest friends in the space too, just because I'm able to see them and talk to them.
And we may not know each other that well, but just being in a gallery and talking about artists and stuff is, uh, it's just incredible.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's a really special thing.
And then sometimes like people from the, uh, traditional art world, they mentioned to me how they feel like it's not that localized when you're online.
And like the localized aspects that you, that you mentioned, like having people close, having this kind of community sense around a certain town or around a certain country is really important for artists, for them to feel heard and feel part of the community.
Um, so what I was wondering before touching on underground in like the future and what you're planning is like, when you're talking to these people in real life, how do they react to you explaining or you explaining what you do online?
How do they view it?
Um, it is one of, it's the strangest experience, um, because they are, um, excited, impressed with something that I'm doing.
Uh, it's, um, every person that I explain it to is like, yes, this is desperately needed in this space.
And I'm just, uh, me and I think it's a similar experience that many artists have too.
It's, um, it's, um, when other people believe in you, um, it's, uh, it's a unique experience.
Um, it's strange to think that something that was in my brain that I had is having this impact on people in person and the excitement they feel to, when I ask them to help out with certain aspects of underground and where, um, I tried to recruit writers.
Writers and reach out to these artists to do drops, um, with us and be featured in it.
Um, the appreciation, like, I don't feel like what I'm doing is, um, special or that I'm above anyone.
And all I'm doing is writing about things that I like talking about things that I like, like, this is what me and my friends do.
This case happens to be art, but like we used to sit around and talk about music movies and what we like about it and dissect them.
Um, and it's the same thing here in the space and, um, it's something that I think we all miss.
Um, it happens when you get older, start families or jobs or, um, just have, you know, new locations and stuff.
We all like to talk about things we like, we like to, um, share it with other people.
Um, and it's just, uh, it's incredible to think that just because I write about and talk about the things that I like of artists in this space,
who I think are the ones that are doing a lot of the heavy lifting, um, to develop it, um, appreciate something I'm doing because I think I'm just a small piece to the bigger puzzle of it all.
So it's just, uh, it's just crazy.
I, I cannot really describe it.
Right.
And, and those kinds of communal aspects, I think, I think everybody internally and like essentially is searching for that, right?
For a community of people to, to speak to about what they love, what, what they appreciate in a certain space.
And I think both those, uh, physical and digital aspects are really important in that.
And I was reading some of your, uh, blogs and I was really captured by how much you care about your project.
And that's why I also wanted to, to invite you on to, to kind of look forward to what, what the next steps are, because I know you're kind of switching the focus right now.
From what underground is going to be.
So could you give me a little bit of perspective?
I also pinned the tweet for people to check it out, but what is the token you're releasing?
How are you planning to include the community in this governance process of publishing and how is this going to help artists as well?
Um, so yeah, uh, this time last year, um, I wrote about it in, um, another piece that, um, got some attention.
Um, this time last year, uh, we were set to launch the marketplace to start generating revenue.
Um, and, uh, the developer that we had a previous relationship with, um, I wasn't really involved in the development of the site.
Um, the technology aspect of it, I left to my, um, partners who now have like a minority stake in underground.
Um, the developer decided right before we were about to launch, um, that he wanted to renegotiate the contract and, uh, things devolved from there.
Um, and it set me back a year and I'm just now getting back on my feet when it happened.
Um, um, I thought I was going back to teaching, um, next summer and I was absolutely devastated, um, because I poured everything I had into this.
Um, and, uh, something I like about your name, the pro noia, um, it's that, um, rather than thinking the universe is out to get you, you think it's, um,
conspiring for you for, uh, good.
Um, and, um, I was actually going to put it in the post that I was talking, um, about what happened in the past year.
Um, which is why when, uh, I saw you ask, I was like, all right, this is another example of pro noia is that like things are just kind of working out.
Um, so yeah, it took a year to get back to this place.
Um, I had to figure out how, um, I would survive, pay my bills, um, put my daughter in daycare.
Um, I'm a stay at home dad, just trying to get this thing going.
Um, and my partners, they focused on, um, the other aspect of, um, the company and were able to give me control and help me stay afloat.
Um, so I went the VC route, um, tried to get funding and got close a few times.
And now, um, I've realized that, uh, it was the wrong approach for something that is almost antithetical to, um, large investments.
And, um, you know, the old web two way of thinking, um, I wasn't, I wasn't sure, um, how much of the community actually appreciated it.
You, again, you get isolated and you don't know your impact you're having on people sometimes.
So, um, I've seen other people launch their tokens, the token ground, um, initially it was, uh, called collect when we were developing the idea for the marketplace.
Um, we used to work for, um, a company called voice.com, which, uh, was, uh, in the EOS, EOS, um, ecosystem, uh, where it would, uh, people would be able to vote, uh, on blog posts, articles, um, that, uh, people would write and put it on the front page.
Um, and you would earn this token for getting up there, but there's this algorithmic way of bidding it, where you're actually rewarded the more you kind of curate the front page of it.
So we wanted to bring that to art, music, um, NFTs, and that's where the token began to become a part of it.
Um, so that's why I'm launching it, um, now and offering it to people who, um, are on the bottom, like, uh, me, uh, who other small artists, um, that should be, uh, seen more and given the opportunity to influence their own destiny or use a marketplace's, um, branding or reach, uh, for that matter to, um,
empower themselves and have a bigger piece of the pie of being seen.
I think, um, a lot of us are frustrated with how, um, larger NFT influencers, uh, use to benefit, um, themselves rather than the artists.
Um, I used this example, um, a while ago and still do.
There was, um, um, Nate Chastain who worked for OpenSea, um, used it to, um, buy art that he knew was going to be featured on the front page and would sell it at a marked up cost to benefit himself.
And he is now facing criminal charges for that.
Um, there's this, um, there's this level of, um, greed and, um, almost, um, disingenuous nature where we say and think, uh, we are here for the right reasons.
And when we're faced with something, uh, like greed or the opportunity to enrich ourselves, um, many of us don't live up to our higher ideals.
Um, and I think the only way to fully protect ourselves from that is to give that power away to more people.
Um, so, uh, that's really the idea behind the token and the token would be used to, um, for all of us to help support each other and incentivize each other to actually do the things that we want to see in this space.
Um, we, I would, we would used to, um, before underground really, um, took off or even like had a website when it was just in the early ideas of, um, discussion.
Uh, we used to incentivize the company that originally hired me was called crypto writer.
We would incentivize people to comment on stuff or like tweets and share tweets and add thoughtful comments, uh, to the conversation, uh, which a lot of us want.
Um, some people aren't capable of it, but they can be rewarded for just sharing it to their friends and their Twitter followers.
Um, but some of us want to talk and express our feelings about it too.
And that is important, um, to all of this.
Some of us want to go beyond just, um, you know, uh, acronyms and of we're all going to make it.
Um, and, uh, other, uh, things that we see in this space that are from the just like hype machine that this has created.
So that's what the token will be used for.
Um, and next week it'll be in my wallet.
Um, and I'll have an announcement later today about, uh, the details of the distribution, but the general idea.
And the only way that I can solve the problem of ensuring it gets into the hands of the right people with the right ideals of, uh, wanting to share that power in that influence, uh, is to, um, present my idea and vision to, um, the people that I am so grateful.
That have kept me afloat for just believing in me.
So, um, eventually I'll give everyone the opportunity to follow underground, um, for a week and get in the discord and then we'll take it private.
And I'll tell everyone the plan and the idea and start to give the token out, um, because I, I'm one of those people that, uh, believes in a lot of things and feels passionately about, uh, sharing.
And, uh, the collective power of, uh, all of us who feel and think the same thing.
And when, uh, web three came into my life, uh, and I was sold on the concept of community and things being more equitable, um, and becoming disappointed in the last two years, seeing, um, certain projects that, uh, serve no purpose are, um, PFP projects that are.
Paying for advertisements and influencers to make money.
Like my DMs are filled with influencers all the time.
I can only imagine what it's like for other artists trying to make it out there.
Um, that is antithetical to what community actually means.
Um, and there's these cliches out there of, we're all going to make it.
And, uh, if you want to, and be the change you want to see in the world, but at those are cliches for a reason, because at one point that.
Foundational belief, uh, resonates with a lot of us and it gets, um, lost in all of the oversharing of it.
So, um, yeah, sorry.
Yeah, no, no, just to, just to go in and go into that a bit, like the, the commodification and financialization in this space is often so heavy that we,
we do indeed get so hooked into these concepts of what you said, like we are going to make it, make it, huddle and to the moon.
Um, we all know these phrases and I think they're signifiers of, of some of the culture that's, that's out here.
And I think what you're saying, it's beautiful.
And I think what you're doing is like starting from yourself and branching out with people that you really, uh, admire.
And that you think are great curators and appreciate the art from the ground up.
And I think largely that, that has been what Tesla's is about and seeing this kind of activity on Tesla's, it, it just makes me happy.
And I, I've written quite a bit, uh, in my study years about decentralized, um, curation, uh, mostly about GM DAO, for example.
So I'm happy to see that some of these initiatives are coming to Tesla's in, uh, in a new, in a new way.
So, so I would, I would love to know just as a last question, and then I will ask you about, about some artists in a bit, but how are you thinking about like, um, is it going to be a, a classic DAO in the sense?
That it will have a treasury and people can decide what happens with the treasury, or are you more looking for it to just be a singular curatorial token to decide what happens on the site?
Uh, so, um, it'll be closer to a classic DAO model.
Um, uh, the plan isn't to, uh, oversaturate Tezos with another marketplace.
Uh, my vision has always been multi-chain, um, from the get-go.
Um, but, um, the DAO would help produce the stuff, uh, that I've been doing for the past two years.
Um, I would set up an executive board of people that I know and trust.
Some of them are here, um, and, uh, they would help guide me, um, make decisions.
And we would present them to the DAO and we would hire more writers, um, people that are space hosts, um, and, uh, podcasters, um, and allow the community to offer up people to, or artists to be featured in the publication as well too.
Um, the token would operate as, um, an opportunity to, um, push out smaller ones that the community hasn't noticed, but wants to share it.
And maybe that becomes, uh, someone that gets featured in the publication.
Um, the DAO would also, um, like you said, have a treasury to pay people for their work in the space, um, and use, be used to purchase work on Tezos, uh, as well too, because that's, this is where I got my start.
Um, but I think there is a lot of other projects, um, that the treasury and DAO could, um, vote on some of it going to help them produce, uh, their stuff.
Um, there's X collabs here and now, like those guys are doing it themselves.
And, um, I talk to them all the time and know how they feel.
Um, but, uh, their success is all of our success.
Um, and I think what's missing is this lack of infrastructure of sharing things.
If, um, I see an artist and I feature them in my publication, I want to hand them off to these other projects that do something similar, but different.
Um, and that's how people move up the chain to these larger, um, platforms.
Um, and I think we can all work together to do that.
So, um, yeah, the DAO will be, um, gated with a membership card.
It's something that, um, we've done on Tezos.
It's, we gave it away for free and people that held the card, um, that supported us in the early days, um, got the card and received the exclusive drops, uh, this time.
Um, and I've seen this model work with, um, other projects on ETH, um, and they've done quite well.
Um, so like there will be a sale to help fund it, um, fund the development of the marketplace, fund the DAO, treasury, et cetera.
And in return, the plan is to, um, use revenue, uh, from the marketplace, um, and other ideas that I have to generate, make this a sustainable business.
Um, uh, we'll go to the DAO, but also go to the card holders as well, too.
Um, so there's a lot of things, um, a lot of ways to earn the token and, um, yeah, like I, people are sometimes shocked when I say like, I want to give away some of the revenue, but, um, something I, uh, believe in and see all the time is that, uh, the artists, when they make a sale, they pump that back into the ecosystem.
Um, so, uh, and that's, the money needs to move around.
It can't just like stop and sit, uh, on these larger projects that are sitting on just hundreds of thousands of dollars and not pumping it into, uh, the art market, uh, for a variety of reasons, because they're afraid of failing and having to shut down, which we've seen over the last few months.
Um, but I do know that we all want to see this succeed, this space, all of our ideas, uh, want to make it out there, but, um, I think we can do a better job of sharing our ideas, our thoughts, and not be so, um, antiquated in our thinking about, um, self-preservation.
Um, because I think the more we do work together, uh, the more likely it is we'll survive, um, into the future.
Did I answer your question?
I forget what it was.
No, you, you, you totally did.
And I, I, I love the idea of like the rising tide and money needs to move around.
And the way you, you speak about these, what they would call like locally, um, like blue chip collections, uh, people love talking about them all day, but in the end, so much liquidity goes towards.
So such a small group of people, such a small group of artists.
And I think that really underappreciates some of the, the artists that, that work day and night to produce artworks and that get curated by smaller boards, but that don't get appreciated enough.
So I really appreciate what you want to do for artists.
And I look forward to seeing what the community and you produce.
Um, so my last question before we, we open up the discussion and see how long we will keep going about these topics is what are some artists right now that you're loving, that you're watching that, that, that you could share with the people here and I could pin them on top as well.
Oh boy. Um, this is something that I'm always terrified to do because I don't want to leave anyone out.
Um, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's just like, you know, uh, but, and it's like also partly like that distaste of saying like, Oh, here's my top 10 artists and stuff like that.
Like my tastes evolve, it changes and everything. So I usually always just like start at the beginning of it all because, um, like when I was coming up with the idea for underground and, um, you know, I had to wait to get funding from the partners who launched some PFP projects that did very well.
Um, and then they were like, here, Joe, go make this idea happen. Um, while I was waiting for that, um, I came up with the first five artists, um, to feature, um, in the very first underground digs, because I knew this would set the tone for what I'm doing.
Um, and, uh, what my taste is and my taste might not be everybody's taste. Um, but I think something I'm really trying to do is demystify this idea that you have to be a curator or an art history major.
Like you, if you can articulate why it is you like something, uh, that's all it takes to be a curator. Um, and I tell my students, uh, when I was teaching, uh, when they're reading a book, um, if you think this book is about something, uh, and you can prove it through quotes from the book, then it's true. Uh, because that's all it takes.
If you can back up your thoughts with, um, words from the author, then that's what is true. And that's what I'm doing with art. It's true to me. Um, and the artists enjoy hearing what I think about their work. So, um, these five artists that I'll give you are from the first underground digs that, um, I ever did. Um, they are, um, Mecky Cobra.
Um, there's going to be an Indonesian theme to all of this. Cause I am heavy, um, into the Indonesian art scene and their, uh, graffiti street style that a lot of them have. Um, I don't know if I, man, I got to do this on my phone too, but yeah, Mecky Cobra, um, re-collapse is also on there.
He has been getting a lot of, um, um, recognition lately as well too. He's got this almost like a physical, like wrinkled paper aspect to his art. Um, he would, um, just, uh, find whatever was around him when I first discovered him.
And all of these artists, when I found them had 300 to 500 followers on, uh, Twitter.
And I was like, these are the people that, uh, I am looking for, um, here I'll pin this to it.
Uh, so the one that, um, so it's Mecky Cobra, um, re-collapse, uh, Kung Fu Have Style, who's gone on to be on Super Rare now, um, who a lot of people might know.
Mecky Cobra, Mechazoo, who we just did a drop with. Um, he does GIFs that are very, um, pop art, bright colors from like the mid nineties, which is, was my childhood.
Um, and I would be remiss if I didn't admit that, um, being Mike Rowe, Mike Rowe being, um, Mahendra Nizar, and I hope I pronounce his name right.
Um, he is, uh, he was the first one that I felt a true connection with that I felt, um, I discovered, um, on Tezos.
And when, like I said, when I was coming up with the idea for Underground, um, I saw his artwork and I was like, this guy is going to be, um, on the front page.
And the primary image of the very first Underground digs, because it was everything that, um, I like to see in art.
Um, it has a very spiritual essence to it, but a very current and, um, suburban, almost city, uh, aspect to it about like our, just like current world issues.
Uh, this was during like the protests in my country and, um, um, just us doom scrolling on the internet.
He's blends all of these things, um, with a very street art graffiti style that I love.
Um, it was just everything that, um, it defines my taste, um, in art and conveys to others what, um, I enjoy about art.
Um, and, uh, that's all that really matters.
Like I said, like we all have different tastes and what we're looking for, but this is, um, my, uh, taste specifically.
And the head, the header image of this is called, um, paddling where he's taking this, uh, giant head across the river.
Um, the head of some mythical God creature, uh, that kind of like sparked our existence.
And it's just, uh, that is just incredible.
And, um, he's a very good friend.
Um, and all he does is just create constantly.
Um, and I would love it if he becomes a much more bigger name in the space.
I would love all of them to do it, but, uh, that was my very first discovery I felt.
That's beautiful, man.
And I'll, I'll make sure to check out these artists and I encourage everyone to go check out the digs and the different artists that are represented.
And, uh, before we open up, I just want to thank you.
I do have another question for you, but, uh, if anybody wants to come up for these last 20 minutes and have a talk either about what you're dropping in the next few weeks, or if you have a particular opinion about digital and physical spaces, just a request.
And I will, I will let you up, but, uh, I have one more question.
Cause you talked about the Indonesian community, and I think that's a really important topic to kind of, um, talk about when it, when it comes to like the physical versus digital spaces is we, we feel so far apart.
And, uh, in the physical reality when it comes to, uh, uh, the global South versus Europe versus, uh, APEC Asia and, uh, Indonesia, for example.
Um, so I'm curious, like, how did you get into that community?
Um, what do you think is beautiful about it and how, how do we bring these communities that are so far apart from a physical standpoint?
How do we bring them closer together?
Cause you also have language barriers, uh, you have communication barriers, people are on different platforms.
Like how, how do we get to a more unified vision?
Ooh.
Um, I don't think we'd have enough time to answer those questions with the depth that they need.
Um, oh, um, I got into the Indonesian community, uh, um, through a few larger artists.
Um, oh my God, go-go, um, oh my God, she did the go-go's.
I forget her.
I'm blanking on her name.
She's gone on to other things.
And, um, I just like the bright colors, um, and the graffiti street art style is what I look for.
And, um, that has infected the entire Indonesian area, it seems.
And I love it.
Um, so I just felt very connected to them.
Um, you're, you're right.
There is a language barrier and I've been like terrified, um, reaching out to certain people
or I was at first.
Now I just, um, work through it as best I can.
And because now I know that they feel the same way.
Like they express their, just, um, anytime I held a space or ask them, um, questions or
send them an email to like, get to write a fuller, longer piece for their drops that
they've done with us.
They're like, please be patient with me.
English is not my first language.
Um, and they do a fantastic job answering my questions and communicating back and forth.
Um, but it is difficult and it is anxiety inducing for all of us.
Cause it, we don't want to misrepresent our ideas and we don't want to miscommunicate.
Um, it's tough.
Um, but we all agree that art kind of transcends that.
Um, but we, but my way to communicate with others is still through words, like artists
can find each other and be like, oh yes, um, I understand this person's emotion and feeling.
Um, and we get that human connection, but we're still limited, um, through, uh, words
and language barriers, which is really tough.
But, um, I was able to find, uh, NFT Indonesia, um, there, uh, they helped, um, I reached out
to them and it was the same thing.
We had a language barrier, but, uh, they, they do a fantastic job.
They're brilliant writers, um, when it came to writing about Indonesian artists.
And I think it's important to find those people that are actually from those communities,
but can translate well and do those things.
Like there's going to be cultural differences as well, too, that I don't understand, um, but
that they've taught me, um, because, uh, they live it and they know it.
Um, so it's one thing for me to write about it from this white, um, American centric, um,
perspective.
And it's another entirely one to like get the actual, like Indonesian community to write and
talk about their art.
Um, so I don't know how we make ourselves come closer together.
Um, I, I'm hopeful that me sharing whatever success I find in this space with other people,
um, is what brings us together.
Um, there's enough, there's trillion dollars of liquidity in this space.
Um, and there's, you know, what a couple million of us maybe that are here right now, like there's
enough for everyone.
And I'm hopeful that if, um, I start, you know, set the trend of sharing and just making
enough to survive and continue working.
Um, others might follow suit and follow, um, my example.
And that's what will bring us closer together.
And I think just conversing like this, um, is what's doing it like, um, something I'm going
to write about, put in what I write later is like, we do miss just talking and sharing
about things and talking about what's important.
Um, the money and, um, charts, uh, for, you know, a token is exciting.
Um, it's what drives a lot of new adoption.
Uh, those aren't the conversations that I want to have.
I want to have conversations like this with you and with other people.
And I want to write about that stuff.
Um, cause I think that's, what's important, um, in life.
Um, and I'm sure other people will understand this, but I've been called very, uh, dramatic,
um, throughout my life because I've wanted to have these deep conversations.
So, um, I think that is the best way to do it because, um, I haven't met, um, all these
people that I talk to every day in person and I might not be able to.
For a while, I'm at the bottom of this struggling, just like every artist in this space.
Um, but anytime someone has believed in me and I've spoken to them, I've said one day,
um, if we all believe that we can become financially successful because of all of this,
if we are at the beginning of a new financial redistribution and movement, um, I would like
to meet you in person and, um, hug my friend, um, because that's what happened at this gallery
that I'm going to tonight.
Um, I met some of the people that I've known for a year or two and I greeted them by hugging
them and they did the same.
It's, um, we have this bizarre connection that we're all searching for the same thing.
And it's strange that I've found one artist that did, had a show there at this gallery.
His name is, um, he goes by ADHD.
Um, I knew of him.
I knew of his band Circa Survive, which, um, got some notoriety and got kind of big by my
standards.
Um, I had known of him for 20 years and I just met him last month for the first time.
And it's bizarre that we just keep finding these connections with each other.
Um, despite being spread out across the globe, like we're finding the same exact people we're
searching for in real life, um, on the internet, which was the promise of social media and the
internet, which I think has broken down a lot because, uh, big tech is focused on our
engagement and keeping us on their site, arguing with each other.
And all we want is to be seen and heard and share with others.
Um, hopefully that will be it.
Yeah, no, no.
Like the, the, like telling people in real life about how strong of a connection you can
get from just talking to people with random PFPs online and connecting over art.
I think a lot of the people in the traditional art world, and even just in the regular IRL
world don't really understand how deep that connection can go.
And I, I've met some of the greatest people at, at these NFT events at these galleries.
And it's always a pleasure to meet someone.
And like you said, giving a hug to someone who you've spoken to for two and a half years
and talked about art, talked about technology and shared that love meeting someone like
that.
It's always an incredible experience.
So I'm totally with you on that.
And I think that's one of the reasons why these conversations are important because we might
have this digital aspect in terms of curation that's locked down and that we're really good
at, but how can we bring each other together in a physical space and how can we connect
on an even deeper level?
Because we all love the digital reality that, that we've created here, but it would be so
beautiful if that, that shared among the physical realities more as well.
I've seen two people join the conversation right now, Retro and Crypt King.
How are you guys tonight?
Hey, thanks for having me up here.
Good afternoon.
Good evening.
Good morning to everyone.
Yeah, just wanted to come up here, big believer in Joe and what he's trying to do.
And we've had a lot of backtalk in the back channels, you know, like, and just, I think
the meta going forward is going to be, you know, creators kind of locking arms together,
you know, to do things that maybe, you know, makes bigger impacts because we have, you know,
similar visions.
So I definitely wanted to come up here, give the flowers to Joe.
Joe, I know he's been working hard for a long time and just kind of anybody that knows me
knows that I don't too much promote for those that I don't actually believe in.
And so definitely going to be trying to help Joe in any way possible and underground.
I think that it's a vision that definitely can be built organically and also successfully.
And I think it's what the community needs more of because we got so much big businesses coming in.
And a lot of times the stuff we're doing is kind of backsliding, you know, it's not like new ways of thinking.
And so, yeah, I look forward to seeing what underground does.
And I think the brand's already there, you know, like the build is already there.
It's just the point of us all coming together and actually having a belief that we can change things.
And so I wanted to come up here and make sure that I express that.
And anybody that knows me in the crowd, you know, like support Joe, support underground.
And the way that things become successful is if everybody actually supports each other.
A lot of times they're successful ventures, but there's not enough people that actually will take time out of their day to, you know, make that retweet, support the cause or whatever.
And so I just wanted to make sure that, you know, I come up here and, you know, say that this is one cause that I think needs supporting, needs retweeting and needs to dig a little and find out what makes Joe so great.
Because once you do actually have a talk with him and see the vision, then I definitely believe that also you'll become a believer.
That's a beautiful statement.
And I appreciate you coming up here and talking a little bit about Joe and what he's doing.
And I think I'm speaking for people in this room when I say I'm going to look at all of these artists that are represented and going in a little deeper, learning about these artists.
And I really appreciate you.
Retro, how are you doing?
Hey, thanks for inviting me up.
I am at my kids' karate class, so it is a little bit noisy here.
I'm doing daddy duties, bringing my daughters here.
But, yeah, it's been a great space to listen to.
So I kind of echo everything that Crip King was just saying.
And, you know, I got a chance to talk with Joe last, like late last year.
We had a really good conversation moving forward just about respect between artists and understanding.
And I'm just really excited to where things are going.
I'm very optimistic.
So, yeah.
And I really appreciate that you're actually running these spaces now.
And I think it's a good, it's a really good start to 2024.
So I'm looking forward to it.
And I wish you good luck at the karate classes.
That sounds like a lot of fun and sounds busy.
And Dem Woods, how are you doing tonight?
I just saw you come up.
Hey, what's up, Prono?
Yeah, how are you doing?
Thanks.
Thanks for the mic.
And, yeah, Vito, I mean, just echoing also everything that Underground mentioned,
especially I really like when he mentioned about the importance of the IRL,
being able to share with people in person, despite this being a very online, beautiful ecosystem.
I think that's a very relevant side of all of this to really achieve a certain kind of cohesion
and vision, probably, you know, among people, artists, who we all share the same goals and objectives.
I'm the founder of Neutral Arts, which is a collective of artists from Latin America.
And that's one key point that we really care about.
And we have noticed how much impact that can have, you know.
When you share an experience, IRL with somebody, I mean, recently we made, like, a little trip to La Pampa,
to an art festival, and how that reinvigorates all the relationships among the collective
and how that can lift a spirit of collaboration and, you know, everybody working, pushing towards the same objectives.
So, yeah, I really like that part, and just sharing all around his general vision about how this all works out.
I believe, yeah, it's kind of in our hands to try to do impactful things that are good for artists.
We should not delegate this responsibility to other places.
I really dig also how, because we also, at some point, considered, you know, like a VC-funded model,
but that's really conditioning.
It really takes away some liberties and some possibilities to be creative and experiment.
So, yeah, very bullish on Sony 24, on everything that's happening,
very bullish on blockchain and how this really helps everyone, all artists.
You know, especially being from Latin America and from Argentina, it's really, I think, I believe it's the same case for Indonesia,
and I believe it's the same case, for example, for Turkey, you know, countries with weak currencies.
And suddenly, you know, making, I don't know, $300, $400 a month selling NFTs, you can actually make a living.
And so that's very important, and that's, I feel like that's our responsibility, something we have to protect,
something we have to spread the word about.
We actually also offer free workshops for artists to onboard the blockchain, because, yeah, this is a very powerful tool,
and I really believe in this responsibility we all have to make this something nice for everybody,
and to take this on our hands and not let this be manipulated by narratives or, you know, scams and pump and dumps and all that stuff.
So, yeah, very bullish on everybody here. Thank you very much, Pronoia, for inviting me to speak also.
Yeah, no problem. I think you touched on something that's, like, very, very important to me personally as well,
and that's the way crypto art or NFTs in general can be a tool to redistribute some of the wealth that's present in Western and North American communities.
Some people who are working in Indonesia, and I know some friends as well who worked at companies where they get paid around $9 to $10 a day for their visual exercises that they do,
and then they come onto the blockchain, and then there's all this opportunity to make way more money in comparison.
So there's definitely a redistribution element, and I think some of that gets lost when we look at the top artists in the space.
I mean, I'm not one to judge artists for being successful, but when you look at the top of the space,
it's mostly North American, European, white people gaining most of the money, while that's kind of the opposite of redistribution.
So I'm very happy to speak to you guys about these marginalized communities and different international communities that might not get enough attention.
So thank you for what you're doing. I also pinned the Neutro tweet at the top,
so if you guys want to check out some of these Latin American artists, make sure to check it out.
And Kripking, you had your hand up.
Yeah, no, it's one thing that Bull said that I completely agree.
A lot of our narratives is Western. Being Iranian-American, I don't think we realize how, like one thing Bull said,
$300, $400 a month compared on Eastern compared to the Western, it can make a huge, huge difference.
And sometimes all it takes for us to help an artist make $300 or $400 a month is just support because, like to us, $300 or $400 is, you know, like four or five sales.
But to someone else, that's like a whole change of life for them, you know.
And so, like once we understand this, and again, like kind of shifting our talks a little bit more, you know, making this bridge Eastern and Western kind of meeting in the middle
because everything is kind of pro-Western, you know, in a lot of the spaces.
So those two things I think are huge.
And then last but not least is almost 99% of what we do is collaboration.
Whether it be somebody writing about somebody, whether it be somebody just mentioning somebody else, it's a form of collaboration.
And so I think that, like, it makes me excited to even think that we could have a mission to try to shift talks more Eastern
and also try to figure out how artists can make a day-to-day living in this space.
And so, yeah, I just wanted to add that and kind of hopefully those words will also spark some others to say, you know,
the little bit of change that we can make in this space can actually be huge to somebody else's culture.
So, yeah, I definitely want to add that there.
Yeah, that's a lovely sentiment.
And I think that's also, like, super true.
And I think we've seen, like, plenty of examples of great artists from countries that might be underrepresented
getting a huge boost from the international community.
And I think we should highlight those cases.
We should help new artists forward.
And I think Underground and Them Woods, I think you're doing something beautiful here.
I think we've had a great conversation this hour.
If any of you guys have suggestions, artists you would love to hear on one of these spaces,
if you still want to come up, I can still let someone up.
Let's see.
Someone wants to come up.
Hey, good evening.
Can you speak?
I'm not sure.
Well, just before wrapping up a little bit, come with your suggestions, come with your questions about topics.
I want to do this on a monthly basis.
I want to get as many people from different parts of the community in.
I've met some people today that I haven't met yet,
which is kind of special for the size of this community,
that we have such a segmented but also unified dream here on Tezos.
Oh, and I see you have your hand up, TP.
I think you were talking just as I was being teleported down the slide
because I just heard speak, and I was like, I think he's talking to me.
Hello.
I'm excited to see this space.
Hello, Crip King and friends.
This is exactly what I've been working on really for the last,
this is year four for me in the community of Web3.
And I had an international club called the NIT Creators Co-op
where I held multinational community events, artist talks,
and I did a series called the Celebrate Series,
which was really celebrating diverse international community.
And I just wanted to say that I think it's really an important
and long journey for me as an OG Cree Anishinaabe woman
from the north of Canada.
I just felt that this space, even back in February 2021,
and certainly even now we're in January 2024,
I've been along for the journey,
and there's been a lot of missed opportunities
for the community to build with international community,
multilingual, multi-diverse, multimedia.
So there's just been, there's been a lot.
So I had like series, the Celebrate series had like
Celebrate Iran, Celebrate Africa, Celebrate Cuba,
Celebrate Espanol, Celebrate Southeast Asia, India, et cetera.
You get it.
And those spaces need to happen more often.
And I think I talk about quite often.
I also did, I held an event for Hendonesia in 2021,
which is Hesipnank and Indonesian groups
with friends from that community,
which was pretty incredible.
So really been onboarding and supporting
TESO's communities since the spring of 2021.
And I just think that there's just so much opportunity
for us to really focus on some of the groups,
hearing from them very specifically.
If you look at the way the spaces are often held
or often in English without the proper support
of moderators that can fully function.
And it takes a bit of organizing to say,
okay, you have the right combination of people
with a little bit of knowledge
and also ability to translate.
So I just wanted to come up and support for sure,
make the connection, say hello,
and further encourage the diverse community.
As an Indigenous person from Canada,
you can guarantee there's not a lot of my community
representing in Web3 yet.
So there we go.
So happy to meet you.
I just followed anybody that,
I do my best to follow people back.
So just let me know in the comments and things like that.
Yeah, I totally believe in the organic building process.
So I'm Teepee.
Nice to meet you.
Thank you so much, Teepee.
Nice to meet you as well.
I think I've only spoken to about three or four
First Nations and Indigenous artists from North America.
So this is special for me as well.
And I'm going to check out some of what you're doing
and some of the artists that you've been lifting up.
So thank you for coming up.
And I'm also inspired today to think about more topics
around international communities and marginalized communities.
And I might use this space in the future
as a way to represent these communities.
And what you talked about in the sense that sometimes
it's hard with the translation and the language,
but I think there's ways around this with translation,
with captions.
And I hope we can make it work.
And I hope to find ways to include parts of the communities.
Like, for example, we have this beautiful platform
called Akaswap, where there's a large language barrier
between a lot of the Western communities and them.
And I want to bring these communities together.
So if anybody has some suggestions,
if anybody wants to translate on a space,
that would be great for in the future.
And I also saw Altito came up on the space.
I think we're almost wrapping up.
But Altito, how are you doing tonight or morning or midday?
Hello, hello.
Good evening.
Good evening here in Spain at the moment.
Now it's a little intervention.
Thank you, all you, Pranoya,
to build this space and to talk about art,
to talk about what is going on on Tezos
and what is going on on physical and digital spaces.
Because it's important to,
I think it's important to link together
and make it accessible to everybody.
And I think it's what we are doing in Tezos.
Spread the art to everybody.
And only tell you all what we are doing in Neutro.
In Neutro, we are creating virtual spaces,
virtual galleries, you know,
and Neutro is mixing that virtual spaces,
onboarding artists from American
and live together that to virtual and physical spaces.
So, simply, I want to express my gratitude to Neutro,
to that possibility,
and to make this 2024 the Tezos art year.
100%.
I totally agree.
And I was just looking through some of your posts
and I will pin one of the posts up.
Like, you're doing metaphors like spaces.
I saw one called Mycelium
and I don't know how to pronounce the last word.
Could you tell me a little bit about the process
of thinking about a digital space like this
and how it compares to thinking about physical spaces
and why it's so special to you?
Yeah, yeah, sure.
What I am doing is to build in that spaces
in a platform from Tezos
that is named Protowar.
Protowar is a base
where I am working.
and it consists in build using blocks,
you know, using shapes
like in Minecraft.
But the particularity is,
it's a basic in the free web,
you know,
that you can import into your virtual worlds
and you can do a virtual spaces,
but not only putting an artwork in a wall.
So you can do an entry experience,
where the own gallery is an artwork too.
I invite you to visit our galleries.
You can check it on the Neutro Space
or in my profile page
and comprobar esto and prove it.
Lovely.
I will definitely check out that space
and great that you're part of Neutro as well.
I'm going to definitely check out Neutro
and I recommend everyone else
to check out Neutro,
check out Underground,
check out the artists mentioned today.
And I want to say,
I appreciate you all for coming.
If anybody has any closing words,
for me, it's just been really special
and I hope to see you guys next month.
I'm also going to be organizing some spaces
with some platform partners
and upcoming collaborations that we have.
So keep a lookout for those ones.
And otherwise, good morning,
good evening and good night.
Thanks a lot for now.
Yeah, good night.
Everyone have a good day.
See you.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
