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Proof-of-Trust Live | World ID 🤝 Intuition
Recorded: May 22, 2025 Duration: 1:05:39Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion, key players in the crypto space, including Billy and DC Builder, explore the transformative potential of decentralized identity solutions, highlighting partnerships, project launches, and fundraising efforts that signal significant growth and innovation in the industry.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I made it.
Hello.
You guys hear me?
Yep.
Can you hear me?
Yes, sir.
Awesome.
Let's give Matt a minute to try to make his way in here.
The year is 2025, and there's still no working communications.
I'm sneaky here.
I'm just trying to connect from my actual account,
but X on desktop is going full schizo.
Yeah, desktop didn't work for me mobile's working fine though
for those of you who are with us the broadcast seems to be having a ton of issues right now.
Like all of the feeds broken, profiles are broken.
The broadcasting we're using didn't work at all.
So we have defaulted back to a regular space.
But give us a minute or two to continue troubleshooting here.
I'm just going to full send it from the Intuition main account.
That works.
Hell yeah.
All right, I'm going to do a little bit of best practices,
and I'm going to share the space and let people know it's live.
I will pin that to the top of this space.
Because we had something scheduled,
and we had to pivot from a broadcast to a space
it's going to be hard for people to find this so if you are in the audience right now when you see
that pin to the top of the space please go ahead and repost it to help people find their way here
with that I'm going to mute myself I'm actually super super excited for I'm really excited for
today's convo um Billy DC why don't you guys kind of introduce yourselves?
Do you want to go first?
Yeah, sure.
So I go by DCBuilder on X.
I'm a research engineer at the World Foundation.
I've been with World for about three years.
When I joined, I mostly worked on Solidity, Rust,
Applied Cryptography, but since I've spent a lot of time on Crypt crypto Twitter, wrote articles and everything, I've also done most of other things, such as comms, events, developer relations, things like that. And nowadays at the foundation, I do things like grants, working on decentralization, growing the community, coordinating efforts and stuff like that.
Hi, everyone. I am Billy.
I've been in crypto for a really long time.
I've been doing decentralized identity and verifiable data stuff
for a very long time, too.
And also am really excited for this conversation
because I feel like there's not that many people in the world
working at this intersection or in this arena of what I think is the most important
problem for us to solve right now and I'm just going to keep saying it but I think that
what is being built right now in in the world of kind of like self-sovereign identity
is going to be the precursor to so many things that were not possible before.
Like, I always thought that this was going to be a pillar that was going to get solved
before we could build a lot of really interesting things in crypto.
And we circumvented it and we built a bunch of stuff that didn't require like good identity
primitives.
But as we see, like most of the use cases that we've been able to fulfill without it
have been like largely speculative and money based.'s there's so much more to crypto and i think that
what is being built right now is going to unlock the floodgates of an infinite amount of use cases
like like if you think about pretty much any use case like there is an identity component so
yeah really really excited to dive in here
five questions So yeah, really, really excited to dive in here. Likewise.
Awesome.
And I'm back to focusing at the top of the space.
I pinned the live message.
So again, please just go ahead and repost that to help people find us. For those just joining, we were trying to do a broadcast, but we got Giga Rugged. So we are here doing
a space instead. Man, there's a lot there's a lot to dive in here. Like, I think down the rabbit
hole of everything Billy that that you just brought up. But I think what might be really nice
is if we kind of start with, like,
where this conversation sort of came from
in that intuition is continuing to ship
and is starting to implement
some really cool new profile features.
And there's a whole, like, social filter layering
that, like, we haven't even really talked
about or shown the world yet and we see like world id being a very valuable and important building
block of that which has kind of started the conversation between us and dc builder so so
billy can you just kind of like fill in a little bit of the past and what we've talked about and
then we can like slowly slide down the slippery slope of like practical what's happening today to what the world looks like five years from now
yeah so i think the intuition perspective has always kind of been that kind of your, your identity is kind of like the set of things that you've done and said,
and the thing that the aggregate set of things said about you.
So if you, if you compile together, kind of like all of those data points,
like that's kind of how you build an identity of a thing and a reputation of a
thing. And I've got like i guess
a far more philosophical definition of an of identity that i won't go down the rabbit hole
of right now um but like that being said there are some data points that are far more valuable
than others when you're when you're trying to like understand what a thing is so i think
world has one of the the best data points that's available right now which is like proof of humanity
data point um and obviously there's like so much more on the way but i think that was like kind of
a really perfect place to start um because in this kind of agentic world that is very fast emerging
we're going to want to know what's human and we're going to want to know what is not and like that's
a really hard thing to solve and I think your guys approach to it is like by far obviously the most innovative and advanced and i think like
absolutely is going to play a role in kind of just society moving forward um and i guess like the
intuition thought is like that is going to be it's like a very valuable data point but we also need
others like we we need all the data points we can get.
And then we need to use those data points to not just understand like if a thing is human,
but like, can we trust it?
And with that, like what we want to do is kind of help to, to aggregate stuff, like
help to aggregate all of the potential data points that we can, and then let people easily
kind of reconcile all of that data,
let people easily traverse it. So in the form factor of intuition, what it looks like is this
big open knowledge graph, and you have like nodes and edges, and those are like representative of
data about things. And our whole mission is to try to just like make the set of verifiable data
that exists in the world more traversable, like allowing
developers to query across it to kind of like do these, you know, more advanced reputation things
that I think are going to be extremely important to unlocking all these various, like very highly
impactful use cases in the decentralized web.
And so like, if you look at it right now, it's like, we're kind of replicating the same
problems of web two and verifiable data world where there's quite a bit of fragmentation.
There's lots of different standards.
There's lots of different platforms.
There's a lot of really good data points out there, but it's kind of hard to find them
and it's hard to reconcile them. And you kind of really need to be able to traverse the data
really well to be able to do it because reputation is a very deeply nested recursive thing where
like, let's take, you know, my reputation, for instance. It's like, that is, as I said before,
it's kind of like an aggregate set of
things that I've done and said, and then things kind of claimed about me. So one thing claimed
about me could be WorldCoin claiming that I have an eyeball scan. That's like a data point.
Another data point could be Matt saying, hey, I trust Billy. And then it gets very recursive,
because it's like, okay, this thing that looks like Matt is
saying that he trusts Billy, but what's the reputation of Matt.
And then the reputation of Matt is the aggregate set of all the
things he said, and all the things people have said about
him. So you enter this like very complex data problem, where you
kind of have to like crunch a lot of data to understand if you want to do reputation, right?
You got to like understand a lot of stuff.
So that's just like super, super high level stage setting of where we're kind of like we're coming from.
And I guess also kind of a picture of where we're going.
And I'll pause there because I've been talking for a while now.
talking for a while now.
Yeah, I think we share the same vision, right?
Yeah, I think I think we share the same vision, right?
Like what we've been building,
like the tools that we've been building
in the general identity space,
like not just you and I,
but like the general world of identity
has been not very innovative
in the last couple of years,
especially because like,
as you mentioned,
like everything is fragmented, right?
Like I have my Google account,
I have my Facebook account,
I have my Instagram account, like my Facebook account I have my Instagram account like all these
services across the web now I have like some wallets I use some apps across some
chains there's nothing defining of yourself that people can tie back into
like across platforms you only know like Google like you can only use your Google
identity within Google services right so you can use your YouTube within like Drive or whatever.
But you cannot do that across networks.
So like some of the things that we believe at World is that
if you build the largest decentralized, like open network
of giving everyone access to finance and identity, right?
So you have the largest identity and financial network
and make it in an open and transparent way.
But with privacy at its core, like everything we've built from the ground up was made for
privacy is the thing that truly enables scale and decentralization.
If you want to get to billions of people scale and build a centralized application on top,
you're not going to do it without privacy because otherwise you're siloed to that specific
database. privacy because otherwise you're siloed to that specific database, right? You cannot have
privacy and interoperability. Sorry, you cannot have interoperability unless you have privacy
because if Facebook unencrypted their data and sent it to someone else, then that would be an
even much worse problem that we have right now with, for example, things like KYC, AML leaks or
whatnot that we've seen like Cambridge Analytica and other things over time.
So what we've built is this largest network
of unique humans.
And intuition is the thing that allows you
to make the attestations of reputation to other people.
So each data point that each person
on the intuition network makes is actually valuable
because you know that it's not a bot
like creating a thousand accounts and hooking them up to the OpenAI API or the Anthropic API
or whomever, Gemini, and just like making random attestations about random people
and completely like filling it with jargon and spam. You can actually build
reputation graph because you know that the human or like the node is
an actual human and they cannot just create a thousand reputations that are
contradicting.
And you actually know that over time, this compounds, right?
Like what you said, the proof of identity, proof of human is not binary.
What we're building is also not a binary tool.
We're building an open protocol that allows people to expand it with other kinds of attestations
and modalities.
We call them biometric modalities.
We're starting with the orb,
which is the hardest attestation of personhood right now,
but we also want third parties to build their own orb.
That's why everything is open source.
You can go to our GitHub, right?
So other third parties eventually,
as this becomes a more fundamental tool
that people are going to use
and it's going to become an open protocol
adopted by hundreds of millions or billions of people, there's going to be much more of an incentive
to actually collaborate and contribute to it and i hope it's going to become like world id
it's going to become something like a standard akin to like all the identity standards that we
have so far with like w3c uh with like verifiable credentials and other things but also like just
wider internet standards because i feel it's such a core pillar for the internet to be usable by humans in the age of AI. And this is sort of like the reason why the project
got founded by Sam and Alex over six years ago now in 2019, because Sam and Alex were able to see,
right, like Sam was opening already, he was able to see where the world's going to be now, sort of,
at least like some jagged vision.
We got to it much faster than anyone predicted,
including Sam and everyone else at the team,
which is kind of crazy.
This year has been really, really insane.
And I think it's driving the point home to everyone listening to this.
I'm sure now you saw maybe the Google announcement
from two days ago at I.O., right, with VO3.
You have videos that are really one-to-one,
almost look lifelike.
Like it's really hard to tell apart the differences.
So we're going to have to have ways to prove that you're a unique human
and that you're who you say you are in a fully privacy-preserving,
decentralized way where everyone can just loop into this protocol
and any application can use this, any user can use this
without having vendor lock-in.
Like we don't want to have you locked into like
Okay, we're the only people saying that like you're a human or not
We just want to build tools for humanity, which is the names of the company that founded world
And we want to build tools for humanity that that essentially allow you to do this at scale in a privacy-preserving
decentralized cypherpunk way, Ethereum value-aligned, all those sorts of good things
Yeah, it really does feel...
It came faster, I think all of the visceral evidence of the need for this came so much faster than
I think any of us could have ever imagined with kind of proliferation of ai recently but also like man i've been
thinking that it's been the age of identity since like 2015 and every year i'm like oh this is going
to be the year that it takes off but now i actually think i think this is actually the year of identity
i think or maybe the next couple years the year of identity and i like joe lubin's been making that
bet for forever um because
we all we all kind of like saw it coming it's like oh we need this but i don't think there was
like enough evidence for most people yet that it's going to be an important thing but i think
now we have literally all the evidence we could ever possibly need i think it's becoming
kind of a consensus bet so it feels really good to kind of like finally be starting to get validated because for a while, like, you know, everyone just thinks you're crazy.
And now it feels like people think we're all less crazy because they are also starting to see the need for it.
Also, like, I don't think people understand how powerful proof of humanity is.
how powerful proof of humanity is.
To give an example,
one of the first things I wanted to do on Ethereum
was some sort of more account permanence
so that you could get better civil resistance.
So if you think about crypto,
the main reasons we have proof of work
and proof of stake
is civil resistance like if we could completely democratize networks where you could have proof
that it was like one person running one node that would be like a perfectly distributed
democratized system but because we don't we don't we didn't really have these primitives before
we had to introduce like kind of economic friction, okay, well, you can't just run infinite nodes for low computational costs and own the network.
So you had to introduce some economic variable costs to securing things. unlock like like you guys have already unlocked it but like once people start accepting these kind
of like civil resistance mechanisms and as we get more and more i think we can actually just
make crypto generally even more decentralized than it is now um and kind of like maybe rethink kind
of our consensus mechanisms in this world where we have kind of rich, decentralized identity data and primitives.
Um, and then one more thing while I still have the mic, like, I think that you guys
have also hit on something so important that is also kind of like an impetus for
why I started intuition, which is the marriage of kind of economics and identity. So for a very long time, the two were almost
entirely distinct and separate. And it was very hard for any sort of identity project to get
any sort of traction or eyeballs because everyone has so much,
like everyone has very limited time and attention and energy.
And because of that,
what they're going to do is they're going to spend that time and attention and
energy on things that like can potentially make them money or that are like
really tangibly useful to them.
So like, if you look at the world of crypto, that's what everyone's doing.
Everyone's kind of
playing these economic games largely speculative and so it's really hard to compete against that
as like cool tech like there's only there's a handful of people who care about the cool tech
but it's only a handful of people and then 98 of other people are like care about making money
so it's like okay what if we kind of trojan horse in this really cool tech with financials?
And that's exactly what you guys did.
It was like, hey, you get money from like joining this network.
And like, I think that is, that is so brilliant.
And that's kind of like also where intuition came from.
It's like, okay, like what if we could, like, who's going to make claims about things?
No, no one's making claims about things.
Like WorldCoin is making claims about things because it's useful to you guys. There's some businesses
doing it, but no one's making peer to peer claims. And they don't even do it in Web2 when the user
experience is entirely frictionless. And the example I like to give here is like, I've never
in an Amazon review, I've never in a Yelp review, I've never done a LinkedIn endorsement. No one's
like, if you look at the data over 97% of people are not
actively contributing data to these platforms. So even if you build these attestation primitives,
who the hell is going to do the attestations? Like, like, there's so much data in people's heads,
like their intuition that we need to get out there for the world to use. And we're not tapping
into it because no one's expressing it online in any sort of like structured way right now so like if we can just marry kind of these economic
incentives with the creation of good identity data i think that's how we that's how we trojan horse in
all of this really amazing tech that people maybe don't even need to understand at the beginning
just because they're playing these compelling games.
And behind the scenes, we're just doing things right as good developers.
Yeah, 100%.
To double-click on the guild reviews and stuff,
also one of the issues is that even if you leave these reviews,
nowadays they're all broken by AI.
But even in the past where you were fairly certain
it wasn't a bot, or at least Google did a good job
at weeding out the mass spam DDoS type reviews,
is that it's really hard for people
to consume this information at scale.
But now you have ChatGPT,
I can ask you what are the best restaurants, whatever,
and it can consume that data for you and then just summarize and index and do all that thing. So one of the things
is like, okay, you have even, even if you publish these intuitions and like you, you really had them
at scale, there was no way to consume them efficiently because in the UI for like whatever
Google Maps, maybe Google Maps stars is probably the best like attestation I've used for like
restaurants that have actually like served me, I guess for the US market,
like Yelp actually was that for a while.
But as a European, we don't have Yelp really.
So it's mostly like Google Maps reviews.
It's probably the only one I've used.
Or maybe like Uber driver reviews that I only filter for like something.
But nowadays, like what you said, like these,
like now you have such a much broader set of other stations you can make and such an easy way to consume them with AI at scale for anything that people have not realized just the trillions of dollars of value that are just sitting in people's heads in their intuition.
That now we can actually formalize them or not not offer like you can like um make them manifest
them into reality and people can actually use them at scale um totally which is great like i can say
that you're trustworthy like i don't know like if i study at stanford or whatever like they can say i
have a phd in cryptography and then we can like say who is our favorite cryptographer or like
there's been these debates that have never been settled like who's the best football player is it Messi or is it Ronaldo well now we can actually have a democratic vote we never could
have that before so we just like fought against each other there's no way to resolve these markets
and with other things like prediction markets you know like information markets all these other
sorts of things like there's other kinds of claims like insurance claims all these things we can actually have like if you have things like witnesses right like someone witnesses something
happening in the real world you can use these things as actual like legal claims as well like
it just it just makes everything so much more efficient so much more credible verifiable it just
draws out the noise like all these like complexities and nuances that we've been
dealing for like centuries for like legal agreements and stuff. It's been just so hard to deal with. And so like
all of these things are coming all at once, unlock so much value. So that's like sort of the why I'm
excited, like, and also why I invested in intuition in the beginning that was like so refreshing to
see someone like Billy and the team, like fully get not only the technology and where it leads,
but all of the implications of the use cases and product.
It was just so early to start building as well.
And it's like for a decade, right?
Like you've been building an Ethereum for over a decade now.
Like people do not see it.
And then it's just overnight AI happens.
Like people's life just gets changed overnight,
like massively.
And it's going to accelerate over the next year or two.
And like the adoption curve of all these technologies
that we've been building for decades
is finally going to get like used in production.
And all of these like other behemoths,
like Google, Facebook, Meta, et cetera,
are going to be forced to use it
because there's just no other way to do it.
If you do it in a permissioned way,
like traditional company way,
you're just not going to get the economic benefit
of having this in an open graph way.
The reason why these networks won in the first place
is because they took siloed things
and made them more public, not less public.
I didn't have a network of content creators.
I had to go to a publishing licensing company
and sell my IP rights to them
and then the BBC would maybe publish my song
on their once a week radio show
but now you can just publish it on Spotify
and you can stream to billions of people immediately
if they actually like your song or social media
so if you even go one step further and you democratize and make things even more open,
but take a different turn and make everything private at the core as opposed to what we've
had so far, it's sort of like the next leg up when it comes to value creation and the
internet.
And identity and money is sort of like the core building blocks of any economic service
for the last million years or like for the last like all of human
history essentially um so so it's just people don't grasp that these things are the same thing
it's just in a different different form and a new revamped like much much better form so once
it sinks in to more and more people's heads then more products are gonna come alive and hopefully more things end up coming, coming alive.
Yeah. Oh man. I have so much to say. This is so good. So on the, on the privacy piece, there's,
there's one thing that we're trying to solve that I think is super important that like not many
people are thinking about yet. So let's say you have this agent
centric model of identity, we're kind of like, the entity is the fulcrum point around which you're
aggregating the data. And then you have like your private identity hub, and you're storing all your
data, like with you, like, how do platforms know which data to request, like, if all the data is
just like, totally private, like,
and you have this model of selective disclosure, where you're just disclosing what the apps are
requesting, how do the apps even know what to request? Like, if you have this very simplistic,
you know, one to one, maybe like deterministic flow, where it's like, I need the US passport
credential from issued by the US government. Okay, like, you can you can solve that without
like these discovery primitives. But like, let's say, you know, in lieu of a US passport, you know,
these 500 other data points might be enough to authenticate the person. Like, how do you even
know those data points exist in the first place? So one thing that we're trying to do is like
intuition is just kind of this like semantic mapping on top
of data that like lets you know where it lives so that you can request it so you know you can just
you can point to anything so you can point to you know a passport credential you can point to
you know world id you can point to any like literally any piece of data and you can reveal
pieces of it without like revealing all of it so So for instance, like, let's say, you know, example I like to give this is, I need to come up with a better example.
But the one I've been using is like, you're going to bet on a sports game.
And, you know, there's this like LeBron James is playing in the game.
And you go to his profile, like in this model of selective disclosure where everything's private, like, maybe you can't see anything. But what if you could see, you know, Apple has attested to his
sleep recovery score, you can't see the recovery score, but you can see that Apple has attested to
it. So then you can like request it from LeBron and be like, Hey, like, I'll pay you 20 bucks if
you give me your sleep recovery score from last night. So like this letting people kind of this people and platforms discover
what's out there and then being able to request it and maybe even have a payment flow for requesting
it i think that's like such a powerful primitive um and then going back to the to the reviews thing
there's there's so many problems with this, like, platform specific model of identity
and data. So like every app you sign up for right now, you create a new identity for that context,
you generate data and reputation that only lives in that context. So like, you can't take your
Amazon reputation to Yelp, and you can't take your Twitter following to Amazon, and you can't take
your five star Uber rating and rent an Airbnb, like all this is so crazy. So that's like, pretty obvious, why kind of having portable identity and reputation is
really good. But there's like, also these intangible benefits where it's like,
I'm not going to write an Amazon review because I don't get anything for it. Like,
I don't care about my Amazon reputation, because I can still buy whatever products I want because I don't get anything for it. Like, I don't care about my
Amazon reputation because I can still buy whatever products I want. I can't take the reputation
elsewhere. I can't build a file. I don't there's no Amazon friends list. So I can't build a
following in the context of Amazon. So like, why would I do that? Like, why would I waste my time
to do this? But what if your quarter, what if your social graph was portable? Like, what if the fact that you building a reputation in the context of Amazon, you could take it to another context,
like DeFi and say, hey, like, give me an under collateralized loan, because I spent 10 years
building up this reputation in the context of Amazon, like I'm a trustworthy person. So now,
now maybe you start caring a little bit more about the things you do across different contexts.
And then also, like, it's very hard for new platforms to compete that are kind of, I don't know, like,
maybe review centric. So a while back, to frame this with an example, we talked to this,
like web three product time, and they wanted people to like, sign up and then rank web three
products. And it was like, okay, well,
I'm probably not going to waste my time doing this. Cause I don't think that you guys are going
to exist in the year. And then if you don't exist and I spent like a year building my reputation,
my reputation just goes away. So I've just wasted a year. So like you have, it's, it's really hard
to get users to do stuff. It's if it's not permanent. But what if instead of, you know, liking the project in the context of the platform, you were just liking the project at the layer of the Internet?
And even if the platform died, the data still exists.
Like you still claim that this project was good early.
And maybe another platform wants to leverage that piece of data for something like then made the applications just become kind of this interface through which you're creating the data but the
platforms can go away and the data is still valuable so now maybe you want to try new platforms
out and maybe you're more willing to use them because you have a higher degree of certainty
that all of your time that you're spending doing these things is not just gonna arbitrarily go away in the project dice so that was like four things in one but yeah totally like another thing
that I've been thinking through a lot so two of the partnerships that we did just to like make
it more real over the last like couple months one was with Razer, the gaming company.
They make gaming hardware and software and other things.
They just released Razer ID,
which is a platform for you to have a login or auth system into video games.
You can sort of think of it like Steam almost.
So you can essentially verify your Razer ID profile with World ID,
and then you know you're playing against a unique human in a video game. That's useful.
Then you have things like dating. So you have
dating apps like Tinder, which we partnered with. Spencer, the CEO of Match Group,
spoke at our event in March in San Francisco.
So dating is the same thing. You want to know that people you're talking to are real and unique humans.
And so where I'm sort of going on with this is like there's three main use cases where
you have like networks and people really care about them.
And those are gaming, dating and social.
But not only that, but one of the things that you really care about with attestations and
things like that is like or like the biggest business models if you want to look at it from a
value creation perspective is advertisements historically like that's sort of the business
model that the internet has been built on and so now that you have these reputational graphs across
like all of your social media your video games your your dating apps whatever all of your merchants
all of your like consumer things like all of the shops you've ever bought at,
shopped at, done anything at.
Now you can use all of those data points
to create proofs about them.
And you can selectively disclose to anyone
who's advertising on selling a product to you
or anything else, right?
So you can actually own your data.
You can benefit from it massively.
Give an example, right?
So like I am a big consumer of like uber and
uber eats i order very often on uber and uber eats and so i for example let's say that you're
doordash or you're um someone else like for uber like like i don't know you like lyft um so you
can create discount codes for people who are like power users of u Eats and Uber. And if you have done more than 100 rides
or more than 100 orders,
you can claim this 20, 30% off for 10 orders discount.
And you can try out this better product
without anyone else being able to do anything about it
because it's your identity.
You own your own identity, right?
So you can show them,
hey, I'm a power user of Uber and Uber Eats.
Give me this discount and I can try this new product.
If I like it, I can stay.
And that actually signals to the market
that hey, there's something there.
You don't have these gamified metrics
that people use for fundraising,
like monthly active users, daily active users.
And then you see it's like fake users in a database
that people just do fake requests with,
they fake payments with.
This has happened many, many times.
So some of the things that we care about,
for example, in the mini apps ecosystem,
which allows you to build applications on top of WorldApp
and distribute to our 26 million plus users,
is that you know that they're not only monthly active users,
but they're monthly active unique users.
MAUUs, we like to call them.
So you actually know that the metrics you have are real.
You actually know that the applications on the internet and on-chain,
like all of those actions are real.
We've had all these issues with like bot farms, you know,
like farming airdrops in crypto.
Incentives are broken, misaligned.
There's no reason why people should adopt any app.
Like people don't want to play with it.
Like in 2020, 2021, like if you're a newcomer to crypto, I wish you were here in 2020, 2021, because no one
used the chain unless you were passionate about it. And things like DeFi Summer felt great. You
using a DeFi protocol for the first time, like ETHLENT, which became Aave, was great. Using
EtherDelta, one of the first DEXs was great,
or Bancor.
Using Uniswap, all of these things were great.
Everyone felt super positive,
but nowadays everyone feels like they're coming out of your throat.
It's no longer positive.
I don't want to use the latest DeFi protocol for the most part
because the user experience is terrible.
I compete against sophisticated bots that automate
and try and take the life out of me
and just try and abuse me in every single way
through MEV bots or whatever.
Whereas there's so many things that person
who has a core building block is so useful.
One example, in the blockchain context,
we're building this thing called priority block space for humans
in the context of WorldChain, which is our OP stack L2.
And we're giving priority to unique humans in the transaction space.
Like, great.
So if you're building a block, you essentially have two separate mempools.
One is for humans, one is for non-humans.
And the people who are transacting in the non-human section are subsidizing a paymaster,
which is subsidizing the transactions for humans.
And you also get priority in the block.
So there's even if you open the pool to MEV,
like let's say we have decentralized sequencing tomorrow,
you still cannot sandwich the unique humans
because you can have a more first-come-first-serve
kind of approach in the first one.
And then a winner-takes-all MEV approach
where anyone can have a builder or relay or whatever
for the second part.
And all those fees that accrue from the MEV section,
which are really high because there's some economic activity
that people can sandwich, whatever, extract value,
that will go to subsidize the actual humans that use the chain
for real things like consumer, whatever.
And you have a limit per human on how much block space you have per day,
let's say, or per month.
I don't know the details of the implementation.
We have that in the docs, but all of these things just come to show
that we're just discovering the very tip of the implementation we have that in the docs but all of these things just come to show that like we're just we're just discovering the very tip of the iceberg for all the use cases for
identity for finance for we're just beginning and identity and finance are the two core primitives
that we thought that are the most worthwhile and intuition is also like playing like really heavily
into the identity side of things but identity is sort of like an enabler for the financial side and for everything else and for any other daily
activity any like activity of any human wants to do ever as just people don't
realize it yet um so it takes time and yeah like I could speak about this for
four hours I'm sure Billy could too we're always like let's abuse the mic a
little bit and like freestyle a bit see where it goes uh but yeah it's it's always gonna be like this we gotta do a longer one
this is yeah like i'm oh man there's so much here and i i thought two things and then
we only have five minutes left and matt hasn't said anything so maybe pass it over to matt for
a second but like uh that what you just said last about like
use cases i don't like people actually don't i don't know how they don't understand but they
don't understand like the general applicability of all this stuff like i in most conversations
that i have about intuition especially with investors they're like so what can you use it
for it's like literally anything like literally like every single use case like just think of anything
and yeah it's it's applicable there like so it's like i it's it's so hard it's it's a blessing and
a curse because it would be very nice if it was like oh yeah we did we have like 10 more efficient
swaps than uniswaps like Like, okay, I get it.
But when you're like, oh yeah,
we have this thing that like changes the way
that everything's done in society,
then people, it's like almost nothing,
but it's everything.
And then going back to like the advertising piece,
I think it's actually,
it's actually, all of this stuff is super important.
It's important for advertising because advertising has been so demonized
because it's like very predatory,
but I actually want to be advertised to like,
there's,
there's too much information out there.
I don't want to have to parse through all of it.
I want something to distill all of the data and the decisions for me and present me with a couple options.
And obviously, I want freedom of choice to choose my algorithm.
And I don't want to get sucked into this dystopia where there's one giant company curating my reality tunnel.
And I can only see the world through the lens that they've curated for me, obviously.
But I do want a lens.
I want to be able to toggle my lens to something else.
But I want some lens to be able to toggle my lens to something else but I want some lens to
view the world through and if people are advertising stuff to me that I actually want
like that's super helpful it's like hey you're low on toilet paper like you want to buy some
toilet paper I'm like oh yeah and it's like hey here's like this really good toilet paper that
you never heard I was like thank you like I appreciate that I don't want to have to spend
my whole life doing research and context switching between 35 different platforms to get the information that
I need about stuff. And also, I live in Puerto Rico. And because none of these platforms have
my identity, I just get advertised to in Spanish. And I don't speak Spanish. So they're just wasting
their ad dollars advertising to me. It's really annoying for me. It doesn't give me any value.
It's just like, I don't know what they're saying. And then they're wasting money and time, like trying to sell me
things that I don't even know what they're saying. Um, and then also like Spotify discover weekly,
I started listening to sleep music and now my discover weekly is just sleep music. It's like,
no, like I love my discover weekly, please. Can I tell you what I want? Can I like give you my
identity so you can give me like
my discover weekly back so there's just there's so much here um i know we got through yeah go ahead
yeah i also do a lot of like uh instead of prompt engineering feed engineering
like for spotify and stuff like uh like i start listening a lot more of the other things just so
it balances out so like it's sort of like you have to engineer your own feeds because they don't give you control over them.
Like Elon said, like, oh, we're open sourcing the X feed.
Like they dumped a bunch of code open source, but it's not maintained.
It's like not been touched like ever since he took over.
So like I wish we had more things that allow you to change the feed as well.
That's for sure something that's going to come as well.
Because these recommendation algorithms thrive off of data.
The problem is they don't let you change it.
Problem is they don't want to,
like it's a sort of like security liability
when it comes to privacy.
Like it's hard to share these sorts of things.
And like, how would you share in a way?
Like, is it a client-side sharing thing?
Is the recommendation algorithm
running on your phone or something?
Like phones like weren't performing enough to run run these recommendation algorithms on device, but now
that's changing a lot as well. A lot of local LLM stuff is happening.
There's so many ways to do this. If you have an
online feed, you can just do a proof of some data that you care about and then they can
update it somehow. But there's so much value creation here.
All the products are going to become better because they have access to more information
like all of these things like they're so interconnected like it's hard to
separate like one use case from the other is like all like the same like
we're just doing human stuff we're just humans out there being humans so so yeah
it's super awesome that's actually the best phrasing I heard. Like, all the use cases are the same use
case. It's like, like, there's infinite, but it's like all the same. And I don't know how to I'm
like, very bad at communicating that. But I think that's like a good way to phrase it. It's just
like, you can do infinite, but it's like, literally, you just look at it under the hood.
It's, it's all very similar and very intertwined. And there's all these concentric circles that
a lot of which we haven't even discovered yet.
It's like, oh, this person, you know,
is doing these things over here
and likes these things and follows these people.
Maybe they're interested in this stuff over here.
So like, as you said,
I think experiences are just going to keep getting better and better.
They're going to keep getting more and more personalized.
They're going to keep getting kind of like more and more human human oh i love it
hell yeah yeah it's true like i don't want to interface with an api like i don't want to i
want to talk to something as if you were my friend it's just going to be a galaxy brain friend with
access to the internet 24 7 and it will know me better than any human ever has and like you'll
have access to everything uh all i hope for is that we we have that but at the same time we don't lose values or like if something
goes wrong we have defense mechanisms against it uh so that's what we were doing at world right
like you have to i feel like there's been these two technologies that have sort of been uh almost
they feel like i'm not a religious person but they almost feel like they're divine technologies
that are like contra positions.
One is AI and just in general LMS
and the other one is cryptography.
So you have like something that is able to be a brain
and then something that allows you to direct that brain
to allow you to preserve your own rights and values
and sort of security and defends you, right?
Like one thing fights for you
and the other one defends you and so if everyone uses that thing to fight against you have at least
defenses as a human to be still human like you're not taken over by this like really really
overwhelming force uh that is going to become only ever more overwhelming that's like the reason why
it's become like a geopolitical uh thing like it's been a race it's become a geopolitical thing. It's been a race. It's another cold race where people are trying to mend themselves with more powerful AI.
But cryptography, on the consumer side at least, allows you to not let that be weaponized against you.
It allows you to defend your humanity online and prevents you from being abused, which is great.
online and prevents you from being abused, which is great.
Something that people also don't think about much,
that cryptography just perfectly lends yourself
to become resistant or inoculated to all these issues.
Something we also need to talk about more in general in this space.
I feel like time is coming to that as well,
where we've started to see,
if let's say the Coinbase leak happens,
1% of the users
have their information leaked
it's now a lot easier to abuse that data
at scale because you have agents, you can call people
you can fake their voices, you can do everything
like some sophisticated player can do
that attack at scale, parallelizable
with agents, so you really need to have
the privacy side of things really
tightly knit, you need to have
formal verification of programs, so you need to know everything you're disclosing we're working
on a lot of that on the ui side as well world like how do you make sure that you know as a user what
you're revealing what you're not revealing what what information is out there what is not um right
like all these things are just super cool but yeah uh we're already over time so i don't want to
We're already over time, so I don't want to open another kind of worms
i don't want to open another kind of worms because there's like thousands of these
because there's like thousands of these.
I love it.
Matt, how are you doing over there?
I'm thriving.
This is everything I could have hoped for and more.
I think listening to the two of you go back and forth
paints a picture for what the most qualified intelligent builders are thinking. There was an interview that
Sam Altman and Johnny Ivey, the creator of the iPhone, just released yesterday,
announcing their new venture called IO or OI, Organic Interfaces or something.
IO, thank you. And Johnny Ivy is really a remarkable person, I think.
Worth reading about if you're not familiar with him.
He's probably had some of the biggest impact on humanity.
Yeah, he designed products like the iPhone and the MacBook Pro.
So those are sort of things that he's known at.
Like he's one of the core designers, founding core designers of Apple.
So him and Steve did a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to design and product.
Didn't he also do Nest or am I mixing people up?
I think he worked.
I don't have the full biography, so I don't know much about him.
much about him but I did watch the stripe interview with Patrick and or with someone else at stripe
But I did watch the Stripe interview with Patrick or with someone else at Stripe.
and then the interview with or not another interview but the nine-minute ad from like io
joining openai with yeah at the coffee shop yeah that was great and and um johnny ivy said something
really remarkable because he said if you want to if you want to know what the future is going to
look like you you look for these builders with shared vision.
And I think it was Billy who pointed out like the frustration he has when he's talking with investors when he has this problem of having to explain that the most basic foundational
building blocks of how we develop applications, how we communicate basic data and then what you can do with that data is is changed and
that would be like trying to explain to like you know a specific change in material sciences is going to like
take us away from oil or something.
It's just like, well, what do you mean?
Like our energy comes from oil.
And it's like, no, no, no, our energy doesn't need to come from oil.
And it's like, what are you talking about?
The energy comes from oil.
And you're like, no, no, no, you don't understand.
There are other energy sources.
And like in a paradigm where like oil is the only
source of energy, it's impossible for most people to imagine a world where that's not the case.
And I use that example of oil and just because that's easily understood. But for intuition
and for world, it's starting to picture this world that's a pr that's already arrived in which it's no longer important
about what is said it's important about who says it and in what context they say it and in what
context to apply it and unless you're at the bleeding edge of building with llns and understand
the importance of context or if you're at the the edge of building with LLMs and understand the importance of context, or if you're at the edge
of building with social or decentralized systems, you don't understand the problems because all
you're doing is logging onto X or logging onto your favorite system and seeing your notifications
and getting your dopamine hit, but you're not taking the time to deeply understand the problem
of bots and engagement. And you're not understanding the flywheel that's emerging
of slop in, slop out. Like the more synthetic data, AKA like data coming from AI that continues to get into the AI
training systems.
Like it's going to eat its own brain most likely, at least in the immediate term.
So it starts to become really, really, really important separating signal from noise.
And like my favorite, my favorite way to kind of think about this is like, if you study
time and like human time,
and you study the hundreds of years and the thousands of years, like there are very certain
things that like are always true. And things always swing from one extreme to the other,
one extreme to the other over very long time periods. But we can never see those swings
because we only live in our time period. And we really at best have the knowledge of one,
two generations prior. And there are very few people who can zoom out and see it all
coming together. So we accept the internet for what it is because it always has been this way.
And we accept the ways in which we construct and structure data because it has always been this way.
And if you look back a couple of generations, there is no paradigm for how many people even know about library system cards anymore? Of course you don't,
right? At most, you know about the modern database structures of today. So to reinvent
the way in which we think about identity, the ways we think about reputation, the ways in which we
structure data, the ways in which we query data, and the ways in which we build on top of data takes so much mental overhead that you
just kind of have to take Johnny Ivey's advice and pay attention to the people with the vision,
with the shared vision, who are building these things together. And it's that shared vision,
that's the aha moment. Like when you see somebody like Billy and DC builder up here, both saying, yes, I see that future. Yes. We're building that future.
What are you building? What are you building? Whoa, these things can get built together.
Every time you hear one of those conversations. And if you've been listening to, um, our live
spaces this week, every single day, we've had another conversation like that. We had that in
the hacking project and, and, uh, Salo and a few of the developers from the
intuition developer ecosystem demonstrate three applications that they built all with that shared
vision of what the future of identity and the future of reputation look like. And then we spoke
with Maria Paula from Lens, and she's also thinking about the future of social graphs and
sub graphs and how all of this is completely changing. And today we're talking to DC builder about the same thing.
And all of these people see the same future.
And when that thing is, it's just a matter, it just becomes inevitable, right?
Like you look at the people who looked at Bitcoin in 2013 and 2015 and 2017, they said,
this thing is going to be the most important asset in the world.
This thing will be bigger than gold.
Right.
And people laughed at them and they wrote crazy articles about them, but like they shared that vision. And we're seeing
that right now around data. We're seeing that right now around identity. And we are super
excited at Intuition to be incorporating WorldID into the Intuition portal and finding more ways
to deliver value to WorldID in the form of attestations and also exploring building on
WorldChain and building a mini app there. And if all of that psychs you
up as much as it psychs me up, check out
the pinned post. Our Legion sale went live
today. It's like only open for a couple days.
So yeah, that was awesome
hearing you guys talk. That's
what I've been thinking about.
Hell yeah.
I don't think we could close it out better than that.
That was pretty climatic. If that's exactly yeah also just to like picture like how this looks is like
right now there's like what like 40 people in the space 43 people are in the space it's sort of like
similar to like andreas antonopoulos explaining bitcoin to like an empty room uh like that
picture is iconic from like 2012 or 2013 or like andreas is
just like a big whiteboard behind him and like three people sitting on the picture and like
there's like 100 chairs or 200 chairs there's only like four people sitting
so it's like the same thing in 10 years time these things are going to look obvious
but but nowadays uh like we're living through it which is which is great it's it's literally the
same thing and like luckily i have such thick
skin now because i've been in crypto for a long time like i was at the first ethereum meetup in
silicon valley and it was like 12 people and then like it actually like it's i get pretty emotional
when i walk around places like east denver and i like look around and it's like there's
around places like east denver and i like look around and it's like there's tens of thousands
of people in all these big booths and it's like holy this started with like 12 crazy people
in a room like nobody believed i tried to like get friends to come and everyone's like what
the hell are you talking like absolutely not i'm not going to that and like so like it's it's it's
again i think it's what's massive so it's like there's it just's again, I think it's what Matt said. So it's like, there's, it just seems so obvious.
I don't know.
Like, this is obviously the way that things are going to go.
Like it's objectively the way that I spend my time and invest my money is like on things
that I think are like objectively correct design decisions.
And it's like, oh, that's like Bitcoin, better money, like objectively better.
Ethereum, like better way to it's like world computer like that. It just, it's like oh that's like bitcoin better money like objectively better ethereum like better way
to it's like world computer like that it just it's just better and then i think like all of
this stuff it's like this is so odd if you understand what's going on this is so obviously
a better way to architect things that sure maybe you know we it took us a long time to get here
like we've all been working on this for a really long time. So it does take longer than you expect. But at some point, it comes to a head. And you get a company like world that has like,
super huge recognition and has like the firepower to actually bring the vision to life.
And then it actually happens. And then it becomes a consensus bet. And it's like,
Oh, why don't we pay attention to that to that before? So like, it, it seems so crazy to me
that there's like 40 people in here i feel like this is the most
important thing that anyone can be talking about right now like what the hell is everyone else
doing like what are you guys doing like don't listen to this stuff because and then start
building this stuff and i just yeah like it used to frustrate me even more i'm like cooling down
a little bit because i've just been through it a bunch but yeah i'm very excited to kind of
get to the point where it's widely accepted but it's also nice to kind of
cherish these moments and and like at some point we'll get nostalgic about things like this and we'll look back and be like wow that was pretty cool when i was just like you know a couple a
couple people in the space totally totally yeah we'll be saying just like in 10 years times like world you know intuition is just better it's what i like that it's what separates i mean i have a
background in capital markets or i'll call them crypto capital markets and what separates the
really great allocators from the guys who like lose it all is like that ability to filter again signal from noise
right like there's there's this really big issue in crypto more generally over the years in which
maybe it's called recency bias right it's like's like, oh, hey, the L1 trade worked. Therefore,
we should invest in L1s. And then this builder launched a really successful project two years
ago. So we should invest in this builder. So it's like, okay, what are my proof points? Well,
two, this guy's been successful in the past, and this theme has been accessible in the past, but like almost no great allocator in the history of markets has ever sustainably won
over and over and over by just continuing to regurgitate the same thesis over and over
and over.
And the thing about what's been so interesting about crypto is that crypto loves to get over
its skis, right?
Like in 2017, crypto was going to change the world, but all talking
about these consumer applications, right? Dotcom bubble did the same thing in the early 90s,
but it took like a decade for the dotcom era to be fully realized where like you were literally,
like if something doesn't get delivered to my door in two days, I ain't buying it, but like
it's.com went under, you know what I'm'm saying like true visionaries and the same thing happened in crypto and it's now like what seven years later um on an accelerated development path and we're
actually at the crypto application we're at the very beginning of the crypto application boom like
genuinely that's so obviously what's happening but just enough time has passed that people got
disillusioned and now we're like trying to, in the washing machine, do the same things that worked. And there's an opportunity right now to
look at things like world. Six plus years in development, one of the most influential human
beings in the world is the founder. Intuition. Founder who was here from the very first Silicon
Valley meetup ever through the ETH BTC ups and downs, focused on identity for over a decade.
But still people like have trouble
understanding because they've never built a day in their life. Right. And they don't understand
that. Like one of the first, like, let me quickly share this story. And then I know we're running
over, but like, I'm not technical. I don't really know how to write code. I can kind of read some
code just because I've been around developers for, for so long. And then like vibe coding came out
and vibe coding was super cool because it plugged
all the most massive holes that I had, right? Like I didn't know how to set up an environment,
like variables. I didn't know how to set up a database. I didn't know how to do
scheme. Like I didn't know how to do any of that stuff. And then I watched that,
like every new application I built started with like, I had to like figure out an auth
and then like secure a session and then like set up a database and then like, and then like set up the database, database schema.
And I was like, wow,
like every single thing you build on the internet does this as the first
steps. And then I had to start using APIs and connecting things.
And I was like, Oh, like every single API is its own language with its own
documents.
And I have to figure out how to move from data over here to over here to over here to
over here, but then they won't give me data.
Then they'll pay for my data.
And they just change their data scheme.
I'm like, oh my God, dude, this is insane.
And all while dependencies keep changing and new versions come up.
And it's like, you got one, this one virtually.
And I was like, dude, this is the most stupid thing I've ever in my life looked at ever.
This is objectively shitty.
And then I looked at intuition, right? And I look at,
and I look at world and world ID and I'm just like, Oh, whoa, like persistent schemas that
are semantic. I can just like read them and like persistent identity I can take anywhere.
And like things I can describe to myself and like private public permissioning. And I'm like,
wait a second. Does that mean step one isn't set up off and deal with that? Does that mean step one isn't set up my own database? Does
that mean step one isn't create the schema in my base? Oh my God, the face of building
applications is now forever different and forever better. And unless you've struggled with building
or have the imagination of like visionaries, you're not going to grasp that.
But it will be so obvious in retrospect
that that was just an objectively better design decision.
So like, yeah, I don't know.
I'm super stoked.
I hope everybody here is super stoked.
I think we recorded this.
So that one's super cool.
What should we do with this?
Awesome.
Yeah, spread it around.
I mean, in five years time,
everything we're doing here is going to be like, it was the most retarded thing ever. Anyway, so it's like, it's hilarious. Yeah, it's awesome.
That last round was pretty good. I feel like you got to get a clip of that.
Clip that. Someone clipped that. Wait, there's like a scissor button.
Hey, chat, chat, quit that.
Yeah, yeah.
Hey, chat, I wish this was like Twitch or something.
The first, the first person, no, the first three people from the audience to take some of today's rants and clip them into super cool edits.
You can either like send them into the main account or drop them in the replies or reach out to Fung Bill or to Billy.
Like we will, I will, we will find a cool way to give back to you if you can give back to the community.
So that's everyone's challenge for the day.
Make cool, do cool creative things.
That's today's takeaway.
All right, everybody.
I wanna give a special, special thank you to DC Builder,
and of course to Billy, and to everybody here in the audience.
A lot of new faces here and a lot of familiar faces.
This is a super exciting time, I think, in Web3 generally.
A super exciting time over at World.
If you didn't see their most recent keynote announcements from their conference, go ahead and check YouTube.
There's, like, a huge, huge major announcements that were made there.
And over at, yeah, I saw you went.
Go for it, DC.
Yeah, no, I just want to say like the link or the URL for that
is live.world.org for the keynote.
And it's called At Last on our YouTube channel,
just in case you want to check it out.
Amazing.
I watched that.
It was worth every second.
And for those here who are new to Intuition,
pinned up at the top, we have our Legion sale.
It is live right now.
It started filling up super fast without us even announcing anything.
So that's super cool.
If you haven't had a chance to click and participate, definitely don't wait too long.
And then over at Portal, we recently launched AI Chat.
We have a new epoch coming that's all about using intuition structured data to help make AI chat personalized. We are building and flying that plane at the same time, almost testing in production. So we're super excited to work with all of you and iterate on that process over the coming weeks and months.
been dropped. The trust token has recently been announced. And there is just like so much on our
roadmap that I woke up today in my pajamas and I'm still in them because all I wanted to do was
get online. So thank you again for everybody's time. Billy, anything I missed? Nope, that was
pretty perfect. Awesome. All right, everybody, I'm going to go ahead and sign off.
We will see you all next time.
Tomorrow, we have a space with Legion.
Thank you. Take care, guys.
Thank you, brother.
Good luck with the trust sale.
Thank you, sir.
Appreciate it.
Take care, everyone.
Host
Intuition 👁️
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