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RAC FM Eating Layer Cake wif Jake H in da studio🎙️🦝 🧐
Recorded: April 10, 2025 Duration: 1:33:31Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, Jake revealed exciting developments for WAVS, a new automated verifiable service set to launch on April 10, 2025. He highlighted significant partnerships, ongoing recruitment efforts, and a strong pipeline of projects, while also addressing the challenges facing the Cosmos ecosystem.
Full Transcription
All right, lads we'll just get the room set up we'll we'll get you lad in and then we'll
get the show on the road all right we'll get me co-host in good morning there jakey lad
there's red eye all right red eye i'll send you a co-host brother let's get the show on
the road i'm excited about this one all right jake we'll get you in
mate and then we'll uh we'll get the room set up all right
there we go there we go all right we're getting it started there red eye i'll put the microphone
in give us one second there brother see if i can get this set up there we go
more b bands is in as well we'll get b bands as a co-host as well
all right bands darling i'll send you the co-host all right here we go there's the room
filling up uh can everybody do me a favor get this retweeted out people this should be a good
one this one uh i've been looking forward to getting jake on for a while right so i just
want to say g let's say ge good evening uh red eyes son are you all right
good evening there red-eye son are you all right yes good evening it's been a good day
I've been actually looking forward to hearing from Jake today so excited to excited to get
this space kicked off I know I'm here that's actually quite fascinating I've just been
watching some videos with their Nadar actually just before I've jumped on you just to keep it
you know keep the synopsis
firing in the brain and there it's actually it's quite some interesting stuff and Jake's got away
with explaining things so I'm quite uh I'm quite intrigued actually just to kind of let this space
run a little bit in there hearing from your main man but let's say a good evening to B-Bands and
then we'll kick the show get the show on the road morning B-Bands well to B-Bands and then we'll kick the show, get the show on the road. Morning, well, evening B-Bands. Good evening, everybody. Hey, Jake. Hey, Red Eye. Can't wait to hear
what's going on with Babes. I'm excited to listen to my friends. I know. Let's get it
kicked off. I'm kind of buzzing. It's been a while, isn't it, since we've had Jakey on.
So, yes, people, make sure you uh retweet the room get it shared
out there and we'll just do a very quick introduction so uh good morning everyone
and uh it is good morning for me because it's bloody 8am over here in the uh the far east the
land of the rising sun uh i just want to say guys it is uh the 10th of april 2025 and we're having an interview today with uh jake
uh he doesn't need any introductions we all know him it's not like we've got to go and do a you
know backstory space this is all about where things are going uh layer on eath what jake's
working on right now and particularly wavs which some of you might know is the, uh,
basically the web assembly or WASM, uh, automated verifiable, verifiable service.
So we're hopefully going to get into the meat and bones. Uh, so first of all,
Jake, uh, is it a presuming it's good evening for you? Is that right?
I'm guessing you're not in Europe, right?
I was, but I'm, uh, on the East coast now so it's evening it's like 905.
i mean you've had uh you've had quite a few months on the road haven't you you were you
were on the road for quite a while weren't you like end of last year beginning of this year yeah
yeah i'm basically a seasonal nomad it's great
did it did it did it get to you the traveling a bit jake or was it pretty
we enjoying the break no i just i basically get to like travel along with my friends and you know
home is where your friends are are you uh by the way are you headed to dubai end of this month or
or not i'm probably gonna go i'm still a little bit on the fence but maybe
doesn't sound like you're too excited brother i i don't personally get i have nothing against dubai but like dubai doesn't make me excited it's not it's not really my my scene
right so jake i want to get like i, I want to get into the meat and bones.
We all know you pretty well, I think. We all know your history.
We all know what a proponent you've been of things like WASM.
I mean, you've been one of the biggest voices probably, I think, of WASM over the last like three or four years.
So this situation, this Eigenlayer and layer on ETH, right, for for you was it a pivot or was it a natural
progression to take sort of wasm into other environments i mean how how did this come around
so it's it's not like you've kind of like switched your allegiance from cosmos you've always been a
big like ethereum head really at the end of the day, haven't you? Would you say that this has been like a major pivot for you
or a natural progression from like where you were
like two or three years ago with like the Cosmos Eagle system?
I think I just believe in the true inner chain
and that means doing, making protocols that can interact
with like many different chains and i'm specifically interested in interacting with
chains where there's like money and maybe like better vibes and good parties um so yeah uh for
me like the real reason i started working on waves or wavs is because I wanted to do really next level like governance shit.
And the smart contracts are great, but they have so many limitations.
You have very limited commute compute.
You can't do networking requests, like making a basic like rest API call or like opening up a WebSocket.
You can't store files.
You can't run things on GPUs.
You can't do anything that's like real programmer shit.
So like I became really interested in this idea of like off-chain verifiable services
and how do we make it really easy to build off-chain verifiable services.
And this is something that actually Wasm is great at.
There's this new thing called WASI, which stands for WebAssembly System Interface,
and it allows you to write programs that can store files in a sandbox
or make network requests or do I.O. or generate random numbers
or run GPU workloads and things like that.
So just to give everybody in the audience, the people who might not know, give them a
little overview of exactly what sort of maybe AVS is first of all, and then how WAVS, like
the WASM side of it it sort of like is accelerated so it's a it's an
automated verifiable service right so it's taking advantage of being able to do things offline but
then verify them have verifiable results like on chain right yeah so it stands, ABS stands for Autonomous Verifiable Service. And what that is really is, at the end of the day, you have a, you have an operator set, you can think of this like a validator set, if you know Cosmos really well, right?
a thousand, whatever makes sense for the kind of service you're trying to provide.
Each of those operators has a public and private key.
The operator set is basically just the list of public keys of all the operators of the
service.
The way it works is you can deploy these WASM components,
and they get run by this entire operator set.
And each time we have this concept of triggers,
so you can have an event from any on-chain action on any chain.
Or you could have a schedule, so every 30 seconds
you're going to run an Oracle,
or you could, we were even adding support
for off-chain triggers.
So you'll be able to write a custom Wasm component
that will like open up a WebSocket connection
or pull the Twitter API
to get people's latest tweets or whatever.
All these are trigger sources, right?
They're just events, right?
And then they cause Wasm components to run.
All the operators run whatever the Wasm component is.
And then they take their output,
and they all sign their output with their keys, right?
They pass those outputs to an aggregator, which then
aggregates all the signatures into one signature.
And that one signature is posted on chain.
And that can be verified by the
smart contract, basically. I know it's a lot, it's very technical. What this really means
though, like from like, a user perspective is now we can build a lot more interesting
apps, and a lot more interesting types of like incentive systems and mechanics. Incentives
as like a design space in crypto have gotten quite stale. I honestly haven't seen anything new since like Olympus DAO and liquidity bonding.
Like, and the reason they've gotten quite stale is because there's just so many limitations in smart contracts, right?
They have very limited compute.
So like, you know, one of the things that we're really working on with Waves is new types of rewards and incentive systems that can take into account various different types of on-chain behavior, can take into account off-chain behavior.
this like these are the kinds of technologies that like you know the reason i'm interested in
all this like verifiable off-chain stuff is i think it's how it we get to the next meta of
great crypto apps and also it's how we're gonna like you know make you know dow governance tooling
amazing well jake i was thinking about this uh i was actually thinking about like so who
who would you describe as your typical sort of user base or customer base
right are you looking to bring people in sort of you know web assembly people who have never been
in blockchain before or are you looking to sort of grow on an existing blockchain like user base
like what's your sort of target audience for this kind of product
What's your target audience for this kind of product?
Well, we've actually already had a lot of great success,
and we've signed a lot of MOUs that are going to be announced soon
with some pretty big fucking names for pretty large amounts of money and stuff too.
So we somehow lucked into making something that had some demand for it.
More details forthcoming.
I'm not going to announce those until they're ready.
But yeah, a lot of the people we're talking to
are just interested in building AVSs,
and they have no clue how to do it.
And we're, but the people we work closest with
are kind of just really smart, high-profile teams in the space.
Was this the next logical step for Wasm?
Was this the next logical problem?
Yeah, I mean, the thing with Cosm Wasm is all the smart people left because the Cosmos
ecosystem didn't really support them at all. Right? Like, and so Ethan Fry and I just went off and we made this, which is like the next greatest
like thing.
In fact, Waves will probably wind up becoming a traditional smart contracts VM as well.
It has the latest and greatest Wasm features, like the Wasm component model, which means
that you can write contracts and things
in various different languages.
Waves already supports Go also, by the way, if you find Rust intimidating.
We have support for JavaScript.
We're going to be adding support for Python as well.
The stuff you can do in Wasm these days is also crazy, and we let you run the absolute
craziest shit um you know the other thing wave
support is wazi so you can easily make you know and we have like an llm integration as well that's
coming soon so you can either you can easily be like make me an oracle that gets data from
the sports api to like resolve a prediction market on who wins.
You mentioned we there. How did you go about assembling a new team, Jake?
Did you just kind of get together in a hack house or something?
I'm presuming it's not just you, right? How did this new team come around?
Yeah, I mean we got a pretty legendary team you might recognize
some of some of the faces i attended to like just go and work with people i've already worked with
before and that i like and they're super awesome right might recognize some of the names uh people
like reese i don't know if you saw reese's video on waves but it's awesome um noah we have uh noah's
video is coming out tomorrow we We're showcasing prediction markets.
We're going to be showing off a prediction market example.
We got Nick, he's like the quiet member of DowDow,
but he's been an OG DowDow member for a while.
We got Ethan Fry, he helped create,
like was the first Tendermint employee,
helped create like the Cosmos SDK
and the first implementation of ibc and he created uh cosmwosom and like a bunch of other stuff
um so yeah we got pretty we got a pretty stacked team so if i was to just ask you how does the next
12 months look in regards to things like uh funding uh runway, and also particular aspirations about where you guys are headed, basically?
Well, we're very lucky and then we got a lot of traction and we got a lot of MOUs,
we got a lot of free stake TVL that's going to be in the billions.
And we've got like, yeah, there's a very big pipeline of projects,
so it's really great to get that traction.
I don't know.
There's a lot that's happening over the next couple months, but we've got enough capital.
We've got a lot of momentum.
We've got some crazy plans.
We're still holding a big secret that was not really announced, but, you know, one thing at a time.
I think Waves is cool enough as it is.
We don't have to, like, you know, show off the real thing we're building just yet.
Well, Red Eye, Beybounce, by the way, don't hesitate to jump in with anything at any point, right?
You basically asked, like, three questions that i was going to ask so i think
we're good i mean we're all on the same page i got a quick question for you um i'm wondering if
you saw the the move to connect chains like ethereum and other EVM layer twos with IBC early on, you
kind of saw this potential direction and sought to kind of allow EVM chains to benefit from
better smart contract languages that the Cosmos gets to benefit from as well as,
you know, potentially be able to utilize these better communication protocols or as well. Or
potentially be able to utilize these better communication protocols?
Or is this all kind of, this idea started way before the idea for IBC v2?
Yeah, no, I was like advocating for that stuff for ages,
and they finally got around to it.
So I really hope that the IBC Eureka launch goes well.
It's been a long time coming.
I'm wishing the best for the team.
I want Ic to win um i'm still
worried about the long-term outcome of that but that's a different topic but yeah i really hope
the ibc eureka launch goes well and you know it's about time and i think it's exactly what ibc has
needed to do for a really long time which is like become a true inner chain and like connect to
things like ethereum things like solana like places where there's actual fucking money.
You know, it's like.
So Jake, when I was looking at this, one thing that did hit me is that are you building
a market proof product here?
Really from you, from your perspective right what you're
building is it's not really kind of like dependent on market conditions is it what we're building
is sci-fi technology um this is like this hasn't really existed before in the same way like um
you know this is kind of like we're taking the idea of smart contracts and letting you write This hasn't really existed before in the same way.
You know, this is kind of like we're taking the idea of smart contracts and letting you write other types of programs
that have the same properties with smart contracts,
but are not like bound by having to do compute in a certain like block time.
Right.
Which is pretty much like exactly sort of the perfect use case
for things like oracles, right?
Not just oracles.
You know, actually, I'm very interested in a lot
of the governance use cases.
And some of the things that we will be able to ship because of waves
are things like liquid democracy and very complicated delegation
systems.
Like, what if you wanted to have like different types
of decision making?
For example, you might trust me on a security council
for technical stuff, but you might not trust me
on economics, right?
You might trust a different person on economics.
And then what if we allowed people to also like delegate
multiple times to like many other people?
So I might delegate to you and then you might delegate
to someone else, right? And we might delegate to each other for different things.
This kind of system would be way too complicated to build in just smart contracts. But when we have
verifiable off-chain services, we can do enough compute to like actually figure out those like
those complicated like voting systems that wouldn't be possible before.
I already talked a bit about incentive systems as well.
I think there's just a lot more that can be done with incentives.
I think other types of really cool governance stuff is we are going to be doing a lot of stuff with decision markets,
which I don't think many people are familiar with.
Yeah, there's just like so much cool stuff to do.
Well, I was thinking...
I forgot the obvious one.
We also have like deterministic LMs
for like DAO-controlled,
fully decentralized and autonomous agents.
So you're going to be able to have like agents for
your dao yeah i saw that i was actually thinking is this applicable uh or does it have use cases
for gaming i was actually thinking maybe uh online gaming might be a good one one of our partners
works for with triple a game studios um and yes that is one of the use cases because all of them want to write oracles.
A lot of the oracle providers
are just focused on price data, right?
So they don't care about some game data
for some random L2 or L3, right?
It's not really their core business model.
Doing secure price data as an oracle is very hard,
but we're very interested in the long tail of Oracles,
which is like Oracles that people want for like games,
or maybe you want to do like really crazy,
like eco credit stuff, or you want to like have
some other sort of like, you want to have
like a data DAO kind of thing.
Like this long tail use of Oracles for me
is very interesting. and that's really what
I think Waves really unlocks is this like a lot of new use cases and being able to easily
create oracles for things like sports data or game data or really any sort of data. Just
really being able to create those in a very easy way.
Yeah, it's always been one of the things holding gaming back,
hasn't it?
Exactly what needs to be executed within an on-chain environment,
right?
So gaming's a unique one, isn't it?
The lack of verifiable off-chain computation
has been actually one of the huge things holding
the crypto space back, right?
This is why we don't have very good
apps right it's also why like sometimes the smart contracts are decentralized but there's some very
central service like an indexer or some other like critical piece that's like centralized um
you know i mean look at all these points for example like these point calculation services
they're all
run on just like somebody's like one computer and they can just change anybody's score on a whim
and would you say would you say like you guys are early with this all right so
competition what what competition is there or have you got or is there zero sort of competition and you guys are the kind of pioneers in this or what?
I think we're the only people that like are making a walsy runtime in this kind of fashion.
Yeah, I think I don't know of anyone doing the same thing.
There's a couple of people in like the AVS space that are trying to help people build
AVS and stuff.
But I think our solution's a little bit more elegant
well it certainly will be when you're uh when you're offering like a multitude of languages right
yeah I just want to say quickly good evening to snailsy uh snails is quite I did request that
snails come in for when we get to the the dowdow part but I just do want to welcome them to the
room uh welcome snails i don't
know if you want to chip in on the avs uh buddy before we uh actually get to the meat and bones
are you doing okay snails i'm doing well i have so many questions right now so um come on then
if you've got anything on the air the the wavs get it out here
If you've got anything on the Wavs, get it out here.
I mean, it's everything with DowDow, Wavs, AVS.
I mean, it's everything.
It's a pretty complex question.
So I can save it till the end.
No, no, no.
We'll go for it.
I mean, like, one of the reasons why I built Wavs is so we could do interesting things with DowDow.
And so DowDowada would it be stuck in
the cosmos jesus well i'll tell you what then snails i'll tell you what shall we line we'll
take a run up to the dowdow one so we'll do a quick introduction i'll tell you what then jake
when we retweeted the space out right or we tweeted to space out originally uh i made like
two statements where are we now and where are we headed so dow dow people might
think okay is is jake on a completely new project and is he you know not paying attention to dow
dow anymore well i know dow dow is your baby uh exactly where are we on the timeline of dow dow dao dao right now to do i mean data is like in a chilean space um it's unfortunately stuck in an
ecosystem that's like not very supportive and like you know the fate of cosmopolitan itself
is like hanging in balance and there's not necessarily like clear leadership there and it's in an ecosystem that like uh doesn't really have
any public goods funding and like and so we had to make do with what you know
like i'm not gonna sit back and complain i'm not that type of person so we went out and we found
new opportunities right and that's one of the reasons why we had to go and make Waves. So it wouldn't be like, limited by the limitations of the Cosmos SDK and the Cosmos ecosystem.
And Waves opens up a whole new design space for DaoDao, which I think, you know, we're
gonna start seeing that like fully come into fruition, like later this year um but like we haven't stopped doing things like we still have like
like you know we still are like pushing forward with doubt out delegations is about to come out
uh there's little features here or there it might not be as rapid but that's because we're doing the
legwork necessary to unlock the truly next gen features right the features that are like kind
of blow people's minds.
Like, you know,
we are getting on more chains as well.
I don't know if you saw
Noah's tweet earlier today.
We now have Dodo Lite,
which doesn't require the indexer.
It basically costs no money
for us to run.
And so if there's some random
fucking chain that you want Dodo on,
we'll now throw it on, like,
basically free of charge
because we don't have to run indexers for it. But know don't expect to get an airdrop if you're not paying
into you know the endeavor yeah i saw no i saw no's tweet uh so jake the team very quickly
the the team dowdow is it still a core functioning team or is it just a loose affiliation of people who you know
are working on other projects as like their main job and Dowdow's a side
project or is it still a core team? I think that it's at the moment it's
definitely like kind of a mix I'd say everyone on Dowdow who's like the one of
the main contributors now works on Layers or works on waves. And that's for a reason,
because I think that's like really the future
of what we need to not just make Daudout really better,
but also to give Daudout a business model,
which might like justify a token at some point, right?
And also making sure that like token is not like stuck
in some fucking dysfunctional ecosystem
that's going to zero constantly.
Not better. ecosystem that's going to zero constantly um not bitter uh no mate you don't sound it don't worry quite a few of us have been burned you're all right
we're in the club as well brother i still i still have so many cosmos bags i really wish them the
best but like oh my gosh like but yeah like um that's kind of where we're at right now
it's like sometimes you have to do the work to like really unlock the next phase uh and this
has happened before in doubt has passed like when we really wanted to like do the rewrite for like
2.0 there wasn't a lot of features for a while sometimes these things take a long time to create
but the really cool thing about waves is it really does open up whole new capabilities in terms of automation,
in terms of new types of voting systems, in terms of new types of DAO capabilities,
like DAO-controlled agents, automated workflows.
like automated workflows like being able like you'll be able to as a dow uh launch collections
that like uh like take like fees on whatever chain and like mince nfts on ethereum or on
some l2 or whatever or take fees on ethereum and min and NFT on Stargust, right?
So, like, to get to the next level, we had to, like, do some work.
And that's kind of where we are right now, right?
Which is, like, you know, we're still doing things.
We're going on more chains, you know?
We're shipping new features as we can.
But at the same time, we're, like, spending a lot of effort that we can make the tools that we need to really just push the governance meta forward.
The new incentive systems that you will be able to make with waves are going to blow anything previously out of the water.
You will be able to make a decentralized incentive system that can analyze people's tweets and then maybe give like incentives
for like tweeting good things about the project or incentive systems where you get bonuses
for like holding a bunch of different NFTs, right?
Like maybe you got like shit most or whatever and they have like a bunch of random collections.
And so if you own those like random collections, you get like more shit.
I don't know.
Like you'll just be able to do like stuff that you just can't do at
all these days and that's the kind of shit i want to enable like i think data has always like
punched really above its weight and for a while we were very like cutting edge and pushing the
boundary of what's possible and like down governance tool tooling and i want to get back
to that like i want to get back to like making stuff that's like holy
um now the really cool thing about waves and the future of the dowdow protocol is that data will
be a truly inner chain protocol and it's going to be you know like if i if i had to pick two things
that are at the core of dowdow it's inner chain and web assembly we make inner chain web assembly
governance tooling and that's what we're going to keep doing.
We're just using another tool in our toolkit, Waves,
so that now we can make interchain governance tooling
that can interact with any EVM DAO
as well as soon any like Solana DAO as well.
As not to mention all our current DAODAO DAOs
and then giving a bunch of like superpower tools
to the current DAODAO DAOs.
Yeah, I think that's the plan. So it's like, it's happening. Like, I mean, luckily, like,
we've got managed to raise like a lot of capital and there's like a lot of interest. And it's like,
I think we're going to launch this thing with like billions and billions of dollars of uh restaked tbl well i heard you saying you want to come back to that so actually there's there's two
things there that we'll circle back to but i think we've lined up uh snails's question here
so snailsy there we go we've got a little bit of uh historical information about dow dow and where we're headed so snails you got the floor son
cool um yeah i've a little update um for jake about snails so like we're
on another cosmos chain that wasn't really working out and we're going to be pivoting
trying to build out this decentralized content creator through a dow um we were building on another cosmos chain that wasn't really working out and we're going to be pivoting
over to stargaze that's where our home dow is and we use retroactive compensation to reward
our content creators through the dow soon we have some work being done right now to launch
a publishing dow this will be a sub dow that automatically publishes content to our
jackal pin file so um you know we have a return of floss doing the the code to
create a dow dow widget where people just upload their video right on dow dow and it gets pinned
to our storage account pretty much and then they'll
mint that um nft um as like an open edition with an on-chain registry um I have that working on
testnet currently on Stargaze and then this is where it gets interesting which is where like
our previous problems open new doors for us um I have a rough concept right now it's like 55 percent mvp i have like three core concepts
to it um which are nostr gun and then um those secret networks involved as well so um you know
when the goal like all the outline that i
have is that when something gets published on the publishing dow it creates the nostril event
um and that gets published you know our web app is pretty much going to be a youtube built on
nostr so then you know you'll be able to buy videos and educational content about the cosmos.
And this is where the plan is to expand the project.
But there'll be buttons where you can buy the content that Snails produces.
And then that content is also voting power.
So supporting our content creators increases the voting power. So GUN is used as a decentralized database, all encrypted.
This will be peers and nodes.
So like really lightweight peers that connect to the database with, I guess, fairly beefy nodes.
But the idea is that like each NFT holder can run the gun node.
And then from there, like gun stores, the public key, Noster key stored locally, encrypted, and then secret network using like a ticket system to verify authentication as well as like a non-subwallet idea like Monero has.
So like I'm at like 55%, I would say.
A lot of the gun and Noster is complete.
The web app is something I've been holding off on.
Testnet contracts, secret contracts still need to go up on Testnet,
but I've had um secret developers
look at them and review them and um they're at least confident with the plan to move forward
so um you know the we're missing like the link of um like getting dowd out i guess something i
really haven't looked into i know that we can somehow with like a cloud flare worker or like a versell listener but um how can waves um you know kind of
get a proposal over to nostr more efficiently and like how can you help us improve what we're doing
sorry that was like a long-winded rant i No, no, no. I wanted to try to incorporate it. That's exactly the way we build Waves,
because Waves can make all this stuff really easy.
We actually already have an example, a Telegram bot
example, which is quite similar, where there's
some smart contract event.
And that triggers posting in Telegram
from a decentralized operator set.
So you basically have a bunch of nodes running Waves. We are working with Eigenlayer initially,
but we've deliberately made waves very generic.
So we don't really care whether you get the list of public keys
for the operator set from restaking,
or whether you choose that list as a,
this is just like a DAO-controlled list.
We just choose these people to run nodes, right?
We don't really care.
Both are open options.
And yeah, Waves makes this really easy
because you can just set an event listener on Stargaze.
We actually secretly support Cosmos.
You can set an event listener on Stargaze.
You write a simple component, which
is going to trigger the Nostra message.
It actually would make that use case you've described actually very easy to build. I can add
you to our dev telegram group if you want, our dev telegram group and then you can ask a re
reese annoying questions awesome i'd love to spam them oh the spam off for this the secret people
that have been bugging but um i'd love to chat about it because i'm i think i'm pretty close um
to like wrapping things up i had a little problem with nostr got a little confused by it so um
i love that yeah so i think like actually no rabble he's a friend like a friend of mine
yeah the serious um from like he's considered the second dev bitcoin he ran um or he was part of social nouns on ethereum which was doing a iris messenger and then
uh nostr as well and he had this point this was like two three years ago maybe i was invited to
like their small dev working group um i didn't really belong at the time but i was working for
a private secret uh secret network communication app and someone invited me
to this group and um the project you know social nouns failed but you know i learned about gun and
nostr and you know finally decided to kind of take this leap into this direction there's some other
things we're going to do with like so we'll have like two different with Gunn and Noster with token data chats for Gunn and some other things managed by this decentralized data page.
Why do you need Gunn?
To manage...
There's some other things I'm not saying that we'd like to do with Gunn.
But just as far as some of the management of the platform um encrypted
chats and stuff like that we'd like to use gun is that good or bad i mean i know uh one of my
friends also created gun like an old friend from san francisco mark uh yeah mark's great that's cool so is this a good plan or no
i think it sounds like a good plan i mean i think it'd be easier to build with waves but like
you know you're it sounds like you're like already like there's many ways to build things
um and obviously i'm very biased so like the way you've described sounds pretty legit to me.
If you get blocked,
then you can always be like,
okay, I'm ready to try waves now.
I ran into a wall.
It sounds cool to me.
Where does waves fit in
into this equation?
I think waves could probably
just get rid of gun
and Secret.
Well, if you want to just do the triggering of a Noster post
every time someone publishes a collection, that's really easy.
And then you don't need Gunn and you don't need Secret Network.
You just do it with a gerifiable service.
Yeah, there's some other things yeah there's some other things that
gun's doing that i'm not really open to talking about now but that's just kind of like basic plan
all right well you know we can always say we can always have the unrecorded chat you can i'm happy
to provide more perspective because i don't know everything you're doing but if you're trying to do
something where you're like publish something on DAO and then you want to automatically trigger
something to happen, like a Nostra post or a Blue Sky post
or whatever, yeah, that's really easy to do with WIFs.
Cool.
Yeah, we'll definitely be looking into using that
for at least part of it.
But we can explore other options as well.
Cool.
And yeah, I think we're going to have some really cool ways
to add out features at some point.
I don't know exactly when they're going to be ready.
Yeah, a lot of really cool automation features.
I used to, back in the day when there was a really awesome project in Cosmos called
Croncat, and then they like proceeded to do die like many Cosmos startups, unfortunately,
because they can't raise money because they're in Cosmos and there's no organizations to
support them.
But like the Croncat team was really good and we were going to add all this like automation tooling to dowdow so that you could like automatically pay all your dow members
or like pay out rewards like every month or every week or whatever you could like automatically
like set up these like kind of workflows and now you can do all that and much more with waves so
um it's finally coming and things take a long time
i was about that you done brother right jake you know over here at fm we're all about you know
growth expansion like development you know we're big on this. I did want to ask you, you know,
did you make, do you think you made any major like missteps with either your deployment of DowDow or, you know, I want to know, did you make any like bad decisions where maybe you've
learned from that and then you're not going to make them again in like this new project? Is
there anything you've kind of taken from the previous to the present?
Yeah, you know, I think on the whole, like Dadao was like actually an incredible success.
Like if we made any decision, I think it was like sticking in Cosmos too long.
And one of our Dadao members actually just left for Solana and launched Dadao's Dadao Fun.
And we could have done that, you know, and launched dows.fun and we could have done that you know and been absolutely massive
um so it's like but honestly like I think on the whole like it went really well like
you know we never got like an ICF grant we never got like a lot of stuff and we like
wound up making like I think a lot of valuable software that people generally like. So I think in that
regard it was successful. Yeah I think if anything I think we would like if we would do anything
differently probably not. I think I probably would have seen like the writing on the wall
with like Cosmos sooner rather than later and maybe it would have
been like we could have easily gotten funding to like build stuff you know like other ecosystems
but yeah it's tricky i i mean you know jake i and i still do actually think this but
i actually fully believed i thought doubt i was the most pioneering like tech in blockchain
i'd ever used like you looked around other ecosystems and at the time there was just
nothing else that you could put in the same category you know i mean it was so unique and
i think i think maybe people thought maybe there were bigger things on the horizon maybe that
didn't kind of happen you know oh there but there are just like things happen in their own time frame
Right, you can't like force
Like sometimes to get to the really next level you have to like unlock a huge piece and it's a lot of work, right?
But yeah, I think
We're still on the pathway towards like blowing people's minds with like what's possible
Takes a while yeah because i mean a lot of other systems like dow systems on other chains are still quite like
subpar aren't that there isn't like nobody's really replicated dowdow yet on other chains right
i think they have actually so i think if you asked like a year or two ago, this would be true, but there's been a lot of innovation since then. So like Aragon kind of came back to life in the EVM ecosystem. sort of like daodao design which i think is really nice um so i think in many ways they're like kind
of like caught up with like a lot of the features that daodao offers um i think uh uh hats protocol
is really good in evm world for like roles and permissions it gives you like almost even more
granular permissions than like daodao like sub daos and things like that. There's like, yeah, so there's been like a lot of catch up.
So what would you say to us?
A lot of DAOs, like including like NOSSAFE and all that stuff, they like added support for multi chain.
Right. We were really the first like true interchain DAO tooling.
doubt tooling and that is something where a lot of people have like caught up recently
And that is something where a lot of people have caught up recently.
so jake would you say it would you say wholeheartedly that the the best days of dowdow
is still to come especially with things like this wavs coming along and stuff would you say the best
days are still to come oh yeah wavs for sure the best days are still to come not to mention the
dowdow token which will happen at some point when time is right. I'm not going to say when, we don't know when it's going to be when the time is right.
When we actually have services and a real business model to justify having a token in
the first place.
And yeah, I think the best days are definitely to come.
Waves unlocks this whole new design space it also means that we can
take wasm components that we make for waves as part of the dowdow library and then we can then
serve all the other dows whether they're on any evm chain or any solana chain or any of the cosmos
chains or where we can serve all the dows? It's a much bigger total addressable market cap than just DAODAO's on Cosmos chains.
So, like, I think that we're actually smarter and more ambitious than people realize.
And actually providing the use case as well.
Because this is the main thing I like about DAODAO is it's just got such an evident use case, right?
Yeah, well, I think by the end of of 2026 we're going to run some actual countries
you triggered me there when you mentioned about the dow token we're still sitting on our little
uh stash aren't we b-bans uh b-bans red eye um i'm gonna have a slight little pivot so i just
want to bring us in here i see what you have got to say about anything before we have a slight little pivot, so I just want to bring us in here. I see what you have got to say about anything before we have a slight little
pivot because there is there is something I'm going to touch on.
So you got the mic.
You go ahead, B-Bands, if you got something.
I said, like I said in the DMs, I have nothing.
He's answering all the questions.
I was looking at my questions and he was just answering them.
And I was like, well well I just let him talk I guess uh one one question is um do you guys have like
a particular game plan uh for getting people like assuming um WAVs works the way it does and you
guys are able to kind of extend doubt out over into uh ethereum and
i guess more evm uh chains like is there a particular way you guys are hoping to kind of
attack getting some of that adoption i imagine switching over uh how governance is managed can
be difficult it's like one of the probably a stickier product so curious on like well we're
gonna make some big uh partnerships soon some big partnerships in some of the
announcements nights might start coming out with for waves
like this month. And in those announcements, I wouldn't be
surprised if you hear there's some pretty big like other doubt
tooling names. And maybe, you know, someone who's very into
collaboration. I actually don't see mynose as safe as a competitor.
I don't see any of the Solidity,
DAO tooling stuff as competitors.
I instead see them as like people that are trying
to push forward like governance technologies.
And from the DAO outside,
we're just gonna think about how WASM or Waze
in the form of waves, how that can like help us like
advance like building next gen governance
tools so we can like govern AI and networks and solve the problems of the modern age when
our institutions are crumbling and our markets are more volatile than ever.
That's awesome.
You guys have some, you know, big, it sounds like you got some big partnerships lined up
and they can then become, you know, stewards and spoke people for how well, you know, these solutions work for them.
Yeah, they can also even provide their own services. Like, I think one of the things that's
been holding back the growth of DAODAO is not having better legal DAO hybrid tools, right?
Because like, if you're starting a business, right, like you could YOLO started out.
Right. But, you know, maybe you want some legal entity to cover some of that liability or what
whatnot. Right. Like these are real things.
And unfortunately, the state in the state of crypto legal right now, it's insanely fucking expensive.
You have to there's only so many good lawyers and you have to like know them.
But we're about to enter a new era where there's going to be many more templates and there's also
going to be AI agents like based on like crypto lawyers and stuff like that.
And we're going to have this whole new section of DAO tooling, right?
Which is maybe not our expertise.
Our expertise at DAODAO is making the latest and greatest, like most cutting edge governance
shit, right?
Interchain, Wozom, DAO tooling, right? That's our specialty. We're not lawyers, right? We can't help you with edge governance shit, right? Interchain, walls, undassum, right?
That's our specialty.
We're not lawyers, right?
We can't help you with the lawyer stuff, right?
Like, so we have to like team up with some people that might be lawyers
that can help with those side of things if projects want that, right?
Yep.
I love what you say about like you guys aren't lawyers.
Like you're not building tooling for any particular nation or group people like you know it's up to the people in
those individual nations to be able to conform to and you know follow their own rules but you
guys are just concerned with making like a super efficient product and the best product you can so i really like what you mentioned there cool so uh jake look i did want to really
ask about this because you know it's it's to get real like sort of insider knowledge sometimes in
the cosmos can be a little bit difficult right uh you know a lot of devs are not really willing to like sort of tell the truth if i was wanting to
summarize sort of cosmos the main chain the base chain right and and maybe the broader cosmos
ecosystem at the minute if i was to sum it up in one word it would be maybe confusing right
it's like it's like a it's a weird teenager that's still trying to like claim its identity you know
it's like a it's a weird teenager that's still trying to like claim its identity you know
uh how i mean how do you feel about all of the changes that we've seen with like cosmos with
ibc do you think everything's moving in a positive direction uh we saw the stuff with like informal
and skip etc uh you know one minute they want to be this the next minute they want to be you know the
interchange hub of nfts we're seeing their neutron moving away from like the shared security model
uh it's all a little bit confusing jake do you know do you know what i mean if i was to
summarize it in one word how are you viewing the landscape right now
you had to ask this
you had to ask this
i've left it towards the end i mean look you know if we're going to get the if we're going to get
the real story you know but i'm really can we turn recording off like i've really tried to just like
go out and say nice things about waves like passes the past like like we're gonna bring some good things to cosmos as well including you know
like uh juno and stargaze hmm interesting interesting choices of chains there um so like
you know we are gonna bring some things to cosmos at the same time cosmos oh my gosh it's uh look at ics just like absolute fucking
failure like it's just losing neutron is just like the that's the nail in the coffin like uh
the amount of money that's been invested in that technology like millions and millions and millions
of dollars all the marketing effort and all like the,
just really like the whole,
like they really like bet everything on that.
And then there was like no product demand.
You know, they should have,
they should have fucking funded Mesh.
Mesh security is done by the way.
It's just sitting there in a GitHub.
It's fully done.
It's not audited.
No one's going to use it until it's audited.
So unless someone's willing to fork over a few hundred thousand dollars to audit it,
it's going to just sit there, which is really sad.
Because I think if we had mesh security, that would be a much better model for Cosmos.
You would see actually Osmosis and the hub aligned.
Because Osmosis would agree to mesh security, but would never agree to just like ICS, right?
Because no one wants to be anybody else's bitch.
And the great thing about mesh security is it respects
people's sovereignty while letting them form
alliances.
So, like,
you know, then there's, like,
the stuff with Cosmosm as well,
which is really upsetting.
Like,
it's kind of just going into
this, like, frozen state that no one's
really driving it. They kicked out all the smart people that worked on it. A lot of the
best like Cosmosm devs either like quit because they got like burnt out or like Zeke or they
like left because they like their Cosmos startup was going nowhere.
And sometimes they quit and went to Solana and made it big and now have girlfriends.
And, and, uh, sometimes like they like went back to Ethereum and started making like the
truly next gen walls on VM.
That's going to be on like like other other things first like
you know it's just like I mean we'll we'll add for we'll add support for Cosmos but it's just
definitely like very backwater like unless they apologize if they apologize and they're like uh
Jake actually we should listen to you and it would be really cool to have waves integrated
into the Cosmos SDK could you make
could you ask Reese to make that happen here's like some funds I'd be like okay sure you do it
but that's interesting about me I actually I actually didn't have it on the list to ask you
and I should have do you think some certain people or quarters saw
mesh as a threat
to what was previously
on the design?
Yeah, I think so.
I don't know.
I think I am both an insider
and outsider in Cosmos really.
Not like, you know, I'm kind of
on the edges.
And yes, I don't really understand why these things are done.
Like, there's the death of Evmos.
So now they got that.
The problem is, like, the Cosmos' decay is just, like, in a really shitty state.
It's not, like, insanely great software.
If you want to make the best blockchain stack, you have to basically like
start over. Even Informal realizes this. So I've been saying for ages, you should just
hook Tendermint up to Reth. And they finally did this with like Malachite. But you know,
this will make the Cosmos SDK obsolete, unfortunately, because like Reth is fucking awesome.
sdk obsolete unfortunately because like ref is fucking awesome like yeah i don't know it's like
it's in a very weird spot and yet there's like so much good stuff in cosmos like i think i don't
want to get like too down on it like there's like actually some amazing communities and if like the
market wasn't so fucking brutal like everyone would like come back right but we've just been like
having the most
brutal bear market and even when every other things are going up it's like cause nothing
happens in cosmos right it's just like and everyone's like working so hard like look at the
fucking like stargaze team or osmosis team everyone's just been working their asses off
making fucking great products that people actually fucking use.
And there's no appreciation in token price.
And it's like, it's got to be like, it's so disheartening as a builder to see like,
just be working so hard and then like nothing matters.
Like, that's my memory from like Juno was like, you know, like post Terra crash.
Like we worked our asses off for so long.
We built like so much cool shit
that was like really ahead of its time but nothing we shipped really mattered because like there was
nothing we could do to like fix the macro and maybe that's the situation Cosmos is in right
now which is like yeah there's good and bad but like Cosmos just needs the macro to change and
when the macro changes it's probably going to go up by a lot
because it's down by too much, I would say.
I think a lot of Cosmos projects are just severely undervalued right now.
There's just so much bullshit in crypto.
And anyone who can make a real fucking app
and have a real fucking community,
I think that's incredibly
undervalued and so like yeah i don't know um i think cosmos has done a lot of stupid things but
at the end of the day we've we have actually like built things and i do feel like shit's
undervalued right now but like i also feel strongly like nothing's gonna change until like it's alt season unfortunately yeah it's quite the conundrum oh and the cosmos stock had all of
this amazing tech and then very little like actual take up of it I mean it's never ever
really gone like mainstream right like even like some of the l2s we've seen you know like
arbitram or whatever it's always puzzled me jake and it's always been like well is it the people
behind it you know is it just a lack of bd is it a lack of marketing is it a lack of like outreach
like you had all of these amazing little communities spread all over Cosmos, but there was just no, like, sort of cohesion between the
entire, like, thing, you know?
Yeah,
I think Cosmos suffers from, like,
a lack of vision, like,
you know?
And, uh,
I think there
are people with visions, but, you know,
like, they might not be in, like, the
inside, like, Cosmos, you know like they might not be in like the inside like cosmos you
know cosmos hub cartel did you did you expect the newtron move so i heard you mentioned newtron
there yeah i did i i swear i bet i fucking said this would happen like a long time ago
i swear i like i'm sure if you pay a playback some recording i know we did a lot of unrecorded
spaces but i think especially when i was like shilling mesh security a lot i'd be like i bet
you like neutron is gonna that's exactly the type of thing i would say yeah this does not surprise
me at all also like honestly uh as like i know a lot of people in the neutron team they're not bad people i don't hate them like um and like they got some great projects as well um early adopter of dowd house super
thankful of that like and i think it's a good move for them i don't blame them i think they've
made the right decision for neutron so like 100 fully back it and um yeah it was definitely the right move
in many ways i felt fucking bad for neutron because i felt like being tied to cosmos hub was
like limiting their growth like they like um they really did put together like an amazing set of like
defy primitives and shit and uh they're just like stuck as like a cosmos of consumer chain
so like good for them yeah but
it doesn't surprise me at all like and I'm pretty sure I predicted this a long time ago but like
yeah ICS was so stupid yeah the movement the movement to a fairly small validated set right
and I believe that's the case with Juno.
You guys are trying to get the validator sets down, right?
How much of an incremental problem has this been
with having some of these gigantic validator sets in Cosmos?
Do you think that's been a problem from day one
where we saw Joe Chain run on, I think, 8 or 10 validators
and work perfectly well?
Obviously, I know there wasn't massive amount of transactions,
but like,
I think,
I think the move to shrink the validators,
that's a stupid because at the end of the day,
it's just a market.
And if you want to like lose money running a validator on a chain,
that's not making money.
That's your problem.
I think maybe it's speculation.
Maybe you think we're in a bull market and that
like you know is going to get back to four dollars and 20 cents like based on rumors uh or you're
gonna like maybe who knows like you maybe you just maybe you want to i think it's their choice i think
it's just like desperation it's cosmos governance desperation it's a phenomenon okay so it's just like desperation. It's cosmos governance desperation. It's a phenomenon.
Okay.
So it's a phenomenon during the bear market.
So like nothing we do matters.
The price is going down.
No matter what they build, no matter what feature they're...
Okay.
And so now everyone is like trying to blame stuff.
Oh, it's like, oh, it's the tokenomics.
It's like Adam inflation.
Oh, it's like 20%.
So now it should be 10%. That's going atom inflation oh it's like 20 so now it should be 10 that's gonna like fix it
the price of atom is lower since we like had this thing right like we we are it's like cosmos
desperation of like we have to use governance to do something to make some change so that's gonna
like fix the thing and the only thing that's gonna fix the thing is the fed cutting rates like it's a i don't know maybe i'm too cynical someone please tell me i'm too cynical like
i think no jake you're in good company just trust me you're in really good company bro
we think exactly the same right just before we just before we go to, I say Austin's jumped in there from Bitsong, but is it, am I right in thinking that Newtron have capped the earnings of their, uh, the new validator set, right? Is that right? Are they doing like a monthly cut or something like that?
I don't know. I don't pay attention to stuff in Cosmos anymore. Really? I have a lot of like other things to work on. it's like it's a lot more fun like at least
at least you're open and honest about things jake and i think that you know the audience appreciates
that more than anything you're being very diplomatic today i will tell you you know
because it's a recorded one but i think people appreciate the honesty you know, we've got Austin. I'm sure you know Austin
Hey guys, can you hear me certainly sir go ahead
What's going on? Hey, so I just wanted to kind of I jumped up because you guys are talking about the validator cut I just wanted to throw in my two cents. I think it's like it a hundred percent is desperation
but like the way the staking module works
it's like if the target bonded tokens
decreases, then that means the inflationary rewards increase. And when you have a validator
set reduce, that just means the people who are in the validator set get that increase of rewards
for that certain amount of time for people who may have forgotten to redelegate from a validator
that got booted out of the set. So I it's like yeah it's definitely partial like part marketing but it also seems
like kind of like a speculative move to like like scrape up as much fucking pennies as you can get
before like the bull runs hits for like the people who are like influenced but that's just like
kind of you know my tinfoil hat theory um and i've simple. Think about it from game theory.
Okay, all the validators are losing money, right?
So the ones in the top, they're like,
oh, you know, it'd be good to get some more tokens to sell
because I need to pay for these AWS credits
or Hertzner data centers I'm running.
Oh, this is a great proposal idea.
Let's make a proposal to cut the validator set
so that we get some more fun.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
I mean, I don't think it's a conspiracy theory.
I think that's just how it works.
Unfortunately.
Yeah, certainly.
But like, I also wanted to say, yeah.
Go ahead.
Oh, no, it would have been a slight pivot pivot so if you had something to say on that pivots are okay cool yeah no this is a fun
pivot i just wanted to say like it's great to hear rack fm uh have like a polar take on like
dowdows uh like viability and like benefit because there was a conversation there was a conversation last time
where it was kind of like the polar opposite take than now so it's good to hear you guys turn that
leaf like we're we're moving on our own time frame i've also i'm also cooking like other things that
are like orders of magnitude bigger than than doubt out uh and you know, I think things will happen as they happen. But Dada is going to happen
and it's going to be like fucking insane. And we're going to like, just we're going to hopefully,
oh, I do have one announcement. Okay. So there's going to be this experiment or like game that's
going to start soon. And maybe certain communities,
stickers of certain communities will have the opportunity to play this game.
And if you have the opportunity to play this game,
you should play this game.
What is the game?
Because you know how much I like games.
When will it start?
Well, it's kind of more like an experiment.
But it's going to start when it starts.
I think what we're doing is we are like an omakase restaurant for tech.
And we're constantly shipping out dishes, and we just ship things out as they're ready, omakase style.
So it'll come out. And then then fix it later hopefully in a month
that's exciting yeah listen to us and obviously he give us a shout out there i think my thing with
dowdo is and i'm not the only one i think a lot of us just expected dow dow to get like
so much bigger so much quicker you know we were we actually thought we were like like look at this
man this is groundbreaking tech i mean you know we did the beach bike governance thing etc etc
i think we all realized just how good it was and how unique it was and i think a lot of us expected
that they're like blow blow up Jake do you know
what I mean I think I think that's where like our viewpoint is kind of thing I think we would
have blown up if we were in another ecosystem that wasn't Cosmos yeah it's almost like it
does like doubt out deserves more accolades than it gets like people it's still way kind
of underrated in regards to like what it can do and its functionality and stuff, you know
Especially
Appreciate that and we are gonna we are we are continuing to cook. Don't worry. We're continuing to cook. We're about to get to like our best dishes
So yeah, just the
it's been a long journey I also spent a lot of money on data you've still got
It's been a long journey. I also spent a lot of money on data
like all the people who are working on other sort of coordinating projects like
I'm with they're doing like the rebalancer stuff and everything like
you've still got like all the projects that are utilizing all building stuff
for like that right yeah totally one thing that was like that i would love to implement is like gauges
um and i feel like a missed opportunity was when they built hydro which is just given the grant to
dowdow and we would have made a generalized thing that anyone could use for any protocol in cosmos
now it's just been like so much more powerful
and now we just have hydro it's like like it's and wind and wind sitting there collecting dust too
oh i have there's a there's a branch i think you even worked on that branch for a while also
with like the uh the gauges contracts in them they're not audited but you could use them I think the test pass yeah yeah I think just like from my perspective I feel like the
hardest part of like implementing that would have been like wiring it up to the
UI in like a generic way that like create like doesn't limit the like
potential uses of the gate you know what but like one of the things i'd love to see is like more people contributing to doubt out code now that we have like fucking ai agents
that can write code you can just like go and fork the doubt out front end repo and then just like
feed in something that noah already wrote and say i need to make a component that's like this action
item or whatever you feed in a bunch of examples and just say like,
hey, chat GPT or Claude, fucking make me this thing that does this.
Great. Perfect.
I don't, I mean, I'll speak for myself.
I've done that personally with like a burn to mint,
like mentor on Stargaze.
It's like the website's infused. like mentor on Stargaze. It's like the websites
infused dot permissionless dot money.
And like,
there's like a custom widget and app.
Also,
we did that for a shit most Florence project
for a token bootstrapping mechanism
called shit straps,
where it's just like a super simple
set of conversion ratio
between two prices and a limit.
But like,
I even,
yeah. Yeah. i even had this
comment they wouldn't know it's like they're it's so crazy that there isn't more people doing that
like it blows my mind that because like this is the commerce it goes back to the conversation
uh rack fm and i had a little bit ago and it was like you know what dowdow not only provides is
like the application layer for like DAOs, but from my perspective
of a junior developer, it provides just this amazing reference tooling to understand how
to form applications in this complex cross-chain environment.
And I think that is just as powerful as being able to use the DAO in applications as well,
because then you kind of have this understanding of the workflow
of integrating what you want to do within this complex environment.
And with all the fun stuff that Noah has created to make it to where
polytone messages are automatically formed for these chains,
it's just so OP from a junior dev perspective.
So yeah, I totally agree.
There should be more people contributing to it. I'm not sure why.
Maybe there's not the right incentives set
up, obviously. You know, one of the things that also
pisses me off is how uncollaborative
the cosmos is.
The amount of times I've invited
informal or other
teams to contribute to DaoDao,
they never do
anything. I think they're probably all too busy, whatever.
it's like um a lot of promises were made early on i think i think that's what it was like a lot
of promises are made early on everyone's trying to fucking make sure that they're keeping their
word and like that that kind of just conflicted when like it's like all that overlap with each other at one time and then like
bear market luna
anyway we're moving forward
uh i think we have another
so yeah that's the first message is like
maybe uh you should
stake chino or stars
and secondly
and and
if the game comes out you should play the game
I don't know what else will be eligible
and this is all hypothetical
by the way
this is
super hypothetical
and third thing is
if there's any really cool
NFT artists
that want to experiment with
generative NFTs and dynamic NFTs that evolve based on on or off chain
events. And they have really cool art ideas. Um,
they have some cool stuff to show you.
I like, I like what Austin said there actually about the learning environment.
And it actually got me thinking, do you know,
I probably learned more about blockchain and and I mean I knew nothing about
code obviously but I probably learned more about blockchain from using DowDow than any other
application or blockchain that I've been on do you know what I mean like I mean we did the the
code for the uh the airdrop never in a million years did i think i'd ever be able to do anything
like that and dow dow made it super easy and just being able to go into like previous transactions
and like copy people's code or you know messages etc putting you you know putting your own details
you just copy and pasting kind of thing aren't you and then you can execute like a custom contract
never in a million years did i think somebody like me an absolute pleb who's never fucking you know apart from a word doc
when I'm on a computer yeah but but like robo you're still you're pretty you're pretty smart
you're really good at picking up stuff I was able to as well create a DAO. When we had the whole animal DAOs and everybody was
doing the corporation game and we were all creating it, I literally got help and was
able to create, I don't remember what the name of the DAO was, but in this game to create
a DAO and then have what the different NFT contracts that would attach to it.
I needed some help, but I was able to do that.
And I have, I don't do stuff like that. You know what I mean?
So that was really cool.
And I kind of wish that there was more going on with it.
Like as far as like things that I wanted to do with it,
but I don't know what else to do. Like with the Dow Dow,
like I'm just a regular power. I'm just like a power user person you know but it's cool i still think we created probably one
of the and i know people might not see it this way but i still think we created one of the best
use cases for uh dowdow with the beats by governance the way that we set that whole
thing up and then the entire basically the community decided on the
ep you know yeah you know how you make beats by governance next level is you make a waves
component that like uploads like you you have the track and then you have it like automatically like
up to upload on like a bunch of different like channels whenever you post it like maybe you add
it to the itunes store or whatever who knows that's boring though maybe you add it to the iTunes store or whatever who knows that's boring
though maybe you add it to awesome what's the name of that chant a bit song
maybe yes it's a bit song yeah that one yes do it actually I need to talk a
thing about that because we did the year baby you'll know that year be a CD baby
yeah yeah sure that's that's exactly that that's it you would
have a waves component so like you mint the entity and then it like goes to cd baby right away
dude now you're talking our fucking language like i'm gonna have to be hitting fin up about this
one now you're talking our language bro because that's a big one for us yeah see well this is why
we worked on waves is because now we can like make dows
like way more autonomous and awesome we can even give them like agents that like just run themselves
i mean mate if this had been actually like up and running when we did this uh beta by governance
you don't even realize like how how important and how big that would have been for
us actually you've literally just triggered me i didn't even put two and two together at the
beginning of the convo when we were talking about wabs right just when you mentioned that i was like
fuck what wait a minute like you literally triggered me bro i'm telling you big time there
cool well i'm glad it finally connected because like we're all very obsessed
with wavs at the moment because like it really just I think it's gonna give
Dallas superpowers talking about Dallas we have another little layer down ninja
in here we've got a mr. cutesy I think that's five on it is it five on it on
the or G account yeah yeah there's nobody else that works on cutes
um so yeah just on cover one of my the only thing i have connected to the music industry is when i
was working at a production firm uh like a law firm i had to take copyrights for music register
that and then move to cd baby and if layers could do
the you know you mentioned templates and and ai agent lawyers and stuff if you could get a
copyright template for just standard production and then and then somehow find it to get to cd
baby like robo's talking oh god that'd be awesome it sounds like you might want to join our soon-to-launch incubator program.
You know, the reason we make waves is so we can launch a bunch of fucking new types of services and applications with tokens.
And it's going to be fun.
So maybe we can follow up on that.
But that sounds like a great idea.
And it happened on RackFM.
I had not thought of this use case
before but it's actually a really great use case you're a record labeled out you publish an nft
you want it to be automatically uploaded to cd baby so simple it's great yeah because that's how
you're going to get it to itunes and spotify in the first place you have to go through like a
broker like that and have to have all your copyrights for ascap and all that other stuff
so it would be just super streamlined I think a piece
in that workflow would be ensuring like when you upload that file it's private like it should be
private when you upload it to IPFS and then you should as an artist be able to decide who can
access that so like maybe something I don't know just well I've been thinking about that too that's what
started jack would be a good one that's what stargate said they were working on because this
is one of the things I had with Brady about testnet where I was telling them that look
if we deploy on testnet you know like 48 hours in advance I think you've got to do it to be featured
I was like people can literally go and find the ifps right and they can literally go and play the track in advance if you know where to look
you know what you're doing and brady said there was actually some plans i believe like austin
uh certainly for testnet if not like mainnet or something where you've got to be able to mint it
to be able to actually see the nfp right but brady did said there was something in the works for that
definitely for
that's exciting yeah yeah i'm big on that privacy side of things before launch that's that was a big one for me uh unless we've been featured we we only ever deployed on test net
once just to make sure that things were working and stuff you know we've only had to deploy on testnet for a featured slot before
but you don't want to do it like I said people people who are in the know can
just be like oh you're being featured you know you could always get a little
easy hack you could schedule it with an ABS so that like the block before the
block it goes live you update the you update the IPFS URL.
Are we giving you use cases here, Jake?
Are we providing you with something?
This is super useful, yeah.
Whoa, you could even have like a webhook.
So you can have like a preview public IPFS,
and then whenever something gets minted,
your AVS could then update that. so it's like it's like maybe even
the block after so it's like you should you should check out in the repos you should check out the
webs nft repo it's pretty sick it's a dynamic nft so this is a nft that can like be updated by the
abs and it also is like a generative nfc so like you there's a minter contract you pay
the minter contract a fee you give it some input like a prompt or whatever then it like generates
a description and like generates an image and then it like queries things about your account
on different blockchains to like add different attributes to the nfc and then it like mints it
um well the operators all signed the message and the aggregated
signature is posted on chain and that mints the NFT.
Um, and then you can also like update it and stuff like pretty cool.
So check it out.
I am looking, I mean, obviously I want to make a call of the Muslim
version of this at some point since solidity is like, uh, I mean, obviously I want to make a Cosmosm version of this at
some point since Solidity is like, you know, but I'd love to make a Cosmosm, there will
be a Cosmosm version at some point.
So if there's some Stargaze artists that would like to be like launch one of the first like
dynamic evolving NFT collections, you know, maybe start thinking about what could
be possible in that format.
It sounds, it's, it sounds a little bit like at the moment there's these jigsaw pieces
and they're all like lined up just waiting to be slaughtered together.
Right.
Like Dow Dow, obviously you've got your wives right and then
you've got things like the treasury management systems the covenants the rebalancer etc it's
almost like one day you'll just hit a moment where every single jigsaw piece is gonna fit
together and it's gonna be like oh this is now when you fucking this is now a new end game, right? I cannot wait for that day.
It's been so frustrating to be working on something for so long.
And so I really like shipping things in a more iterative fashion.
But this is a very large piece of work.
We have to do this to unlock all the next good stuff.
But I can't wait to get to some more rapid user facing new feature shipping we'll get there soon well Jake uh we we always try to keep
our interviews tight we learned that uh when we do the recorded interviews we try to hit them
around about an hour because they always do not only the best replays but they do the best on
like Spotify as well right and itunes and stuff
uh so we'll try to keep this one around about the 90 minute mark right an hour and a half
i do want to see if anyone's got any like quick questions before we finish but i do just want to
see it you mentioned about the fact that uh obviously it's not just going to be rust i think
you said you can also call it in gorn you You're going to be doing Python and stuff soon, right?
So where's Jake?
Where's late on ETH?
Where's this product by the end of this year?
What will we see is like the major development
before we close out 2025?
You will finally learn about the real project
and the real name for the token and the real mechanics behind it oh so we're
talking a big launch are we a big big launch i mean i hope it's a big launch i think it's
gonna be a launch unlike uh anything anything else so we'll sure i don't know what strategies
i'm an artist i just want to do something like original i'm tired of
people doing the same over and over again i'm tired of all these oh great another blockchain
oh great another boring infrastructure thing with like zero apps like you know i want to just like
make cool like and are you gonna have to be out there doing a bit of marketing are you gonna have
to be out there like banging the drum uh yeah to get going to have to be out there, like, banging the drum, Jake,
to get the word out or what?
Right now, we get the word out by, like, you know,
just, like, a good old-fashioned, like, secret society.
And some people get let into the secret society.
And people on recorded spaces don't get let into the secret society.
So it's kind of just like word of mouth and
like we have like a underground community building uh like you're not gonna get more out of me about
this you love a secret society you don't yeah he does he he put his foot down he was like you're
not getting anything else out of me He was just letting you know
That's enough
That's enough out of you robo
He loves his secret societies
Does that what Jake
I know he does
Right
We're going to start to wind it down
So we'll go
Baybans
Red Eye
We'll jump to five on it
If he's got anything
And then we'll finish with Austin
And we'll start to wrap it up
So anything you want to
Time in with Baybans
I think it's extremely interesting.
I've just been listening.
I did have questions, but as I said before, they got answered.
I'm really, I can't wait to see what it does.
And I really hope that you do use it for Beats by Governance with Finn,
because that would be super awesome.
Yeah, I'm going to talk to Finn about that.
I think I'll be able to trigger him.
I think what I just heard there about when we're talking about CD Baby
and that, I literally had an epiphany
moment where I was like,
oh, this is fucking interesting.
I will say, mind,
it's lovely to hear his voice again, B-Bands, isn't it?
Been a while, right?
I feel like there was a time
that we always got to talk to him
and then he had to go away for a little bit
so he could cook something new for us and this is what he came out of the kitchen with ah it looks
delicious it's that late night those late night unrecorded ones that we used to do that's why
we we're not doing so many of them these days right we're doing the morning show yeah but uh
he used to creepy and i'll tell you what one of the best spaces i ever had with jake was the day of the air ftx hack on the saturday you know you know when cz tweeted on the monday and then by the
saturday they were getting like majorly hacked and we did that 35 hour space that was some
space that that was the good old days you know red eye anything mate you want to
chairman with before we start to wrap it up bro no not nothing in particular like b bands i mostly
enjoy just listening to this while i worked in the background i like i like uh i like the bullish
the bullish exuberance you could see a red eye do you know what i mean even though like the
chicken at the fan he's always got a little bit of a bullish attitude about him hasn't he
always got a little bit of a bullish attitude about them hasn't he oh i mean if you're
if you understand how to utilize the tech and you've got a vision like i think you know having
an artistic vision is like really important in this space we get a bunch of tools and a whole
lot of things to build so like creativity is important and i agree with uh jake's perspective that like
doing the same thing over and over and seeing people copy the same shit over and over on a
different chain with like one or two different nuances like it is boring i'm assuming it's
boring for builders and i can assure you it's boring for users. So yeah, I'm bullish on people creating new and interesting
things and experimenting. So wish you guys the best of luck.
Actually, that's a quick one. Just a quick one for you there, Jake. You mentioned about
DAO.FUN earlier, right? Has that been a relative success? Because I've never actually messed
around with it or anything
yeah it's been a huge success did you hear about ai16z it had like a 16 it had like a billion
multi-billion dollar market cap at some point like they launched like many like large dows
actually did what cosmos never did with dowdow which is like we literally gave you the ability
to launch tokens with dows and you could have just been like having meme coin doubt season in cosmos
the whole entire time.
And, you know, people did shit.
We had some good does, but like it was, you know,
the tools were there all along.
But it's been what you say.
I was going to say it's been a sort of additional proof of concept then, hasn't it?
That these things actually do work and are needed and required by people.
Yeah, I mean, I think the key thing for them is they had the number go up
technology of Solana meme coin season, which is now very over.
But, you know, i'm happy for bow like that was a good contributor
to dowdow from like the like almost like for a very long time he was very much in like the early
days and you know he tried to do a startup in cosmos and did not get very much success and he
pivoted and just like made a massive hit and like dude worked so hard like you know he's like i'm happy for him
he's got a girlfriend now too like holy oh that made me laugh here five on it we're gonna wind
it down son any last uh comments or questions for jakey before we go no you gooch austin anything you want to shout out before we go brother
no i'm good i enjoyed the space looking forward to the future yeah this was really fun thank you
guys for all the kinds of kind words it like it means a lot like uh i'm glad people like
dada but we put a lot of work into it. I think essentially, you know, Jake, I mean, to be honest, we like you.
And I think, you know, when you're into a project or whatever,
you have got to kind of like have a bit of an affinity with the people who are building shit,
especially when they're coming on spaces and talking about it, you know.
Sometimes these interviews will just be a job, a chore.
And then the ones where we can like really engage and enjoy is if you're talking to an old friend, you know,
but you're definitely, I mean, let's say you're definitely a very good old friend of Rack FM.
Let's put it that way, right?
You're like family.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, we've had some good times.
Yeah, I haven't been in spaces.
I've been very busy and then my social life has also been very good.
And when my social life is very good, I'm like, oh, I don't need to go in spaces.
But I'm trapped on work stuff.
I have nothing to do right now.
So spaces this week.
You should join the RACFM morning spaces.
That's where it's really fun.
They get a bit nervous. How do you wake up that fun. Aye, they get a bit nuff.
Why don't you wake up that early?
I'll try not to be a stranger.
Yeah, hey, Jake, just before you go,
are you still raving?
Are you still rockin' raving and misbehaving?
You still attend the raves on the weekends sometimes?
Dude, I like play, I like play, I DJ,
I like make music at these things i i was no one's ever gonna
like figure out my my soundcloud take his bass nectar
i'm going to figure it out one of these days i'm going going to research it. No, I'm so determined.
You're going to slip off. You're going to slip off and then we're going to find you.
If you see Dow Dow on one of those
big screens behind the DJ said,
you'll know.
Jake is marshmallow.
Or his bad kid, a couple bad kids
popping up.
And then you hear in the background, it's like stars,
stars, stars, stars, stars.
Like subliminal messaging yeah i really only do raves and castles these days so that's that's the that's the vibe
well that's a that's a that's a vibe i didn't even know that was a thing
yes totally a thing i knew, it's totally a thing. I knew
you were Count Dracula, bro.
Are there
any castles in the US or are these in
Europe?
So I'm what they refer to as old poor,
but I went to a heavy metal show in a
storage unit last week and it was
fucking lit.
I think we should
stop this
and start an unrecorded space.
Yes, time
to wind it all down, people.
He's like, I got things I want to say, but I
can't say them right now.
I just want to say
a very big thank you for Jake
coming on. This has been, I've been
really enjoyed this
being very informative having a look at Lairon ETH as well I know that's not going to be
the permanent name but I actually felt like I raised my IQ a little bit just by doing
a little bit of research really fucking interesting stuff so make sure people like you check out
Lairon ETH and make sure you keep yourself well read about the wav situation uh and hopefully jake
maybe maybe towards like the end of the year uh if you guys have made like some inroads or something
or maybe get you back on just uh give us a quick update you know what i mean
yeah sounds great no worries mate and on that note i just want to thank everybody who's attended the day it is obviously uh thursday for me the 10th of april 2025. this has been rack fm 69 420.
fm coming in your ears five days a week all right people so watch what you're doing take care good
good deity is all right and god bless wherever you are in the world and we'll catch you on the
next show all right right? Bye-bye, everyone.
