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🚨RAC FM 🦝 Funky Friday with the Neutron Team🚨
Recorded: July 7, 2023 Duration: 1:19:10Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello, motherfuckers.
GM fam.
GM fam.
Oh, my goodness.
Are you plebs ready for this absolute banger of a show?
How pumped are we in the studio guys for this?
I mean, come on.
Show some respect.
Good morning, everybody.
Hey, it's all nine zero zero AST.
And what does the all stand for?
Oh, my God.
At last, we've got your man corporate soy on corporate duty on a Friday night.
He's down horrendous, isn't he?
Absolutely down horrendous.
Anyway, it's going to be a banger, guys.
So, like I said, it's Friday 7th of June 2023.
And this is your daily Cosmos Crypto US of A breakfast show with your host Robo, the
Mayor of Rockville and featuring our incredible pundits.
But we've only got one one at the minute.
That's your woman from the block.
Our Lady B bands.
Anyway, guys, today, this is this is monumental.
This is industry changing.
This is where we do.
We cut through this shit and we just get excited about the future.
I am pumped for today and have been for like three weeks.
Can you tell?
Probably.
Anyway, before we bring in our guests.
Hello, B bands.
Calm me down, darling.
Put the put the reins on Robo, please.
No, we need this.
We need this right now.
I'm pumped.
I feel like I'm going to go run around the block screaming for a little bit and then I
can come down, sit down and be ready to listen to everybody.
Chat.
I'm so glad everybody's here.
I can't get involved with new, but I could definitely be around to listen to what it's
all about.
America's great.
Well, without further ado, without further ado, mentioning new run.
I mean, they are the current darlings.
I mean, I don't know how long this is going to last.
None of us know, but they are the current darlings of the atom economic zone.
And obviously we're seeing, you know, slight fractionalization, you could say, within the ecosystem in regards to what people think
interchain accounts and interchain security are.
And we're seeing, I mean, all of it's good.
All this competition, all of this like evolution, you know, innovation, like, like all of it.
I've been really going over this, this, this week, looking at many, many, many things deeply in there.
You know, like, I'm such a believer in IBC, the tech, the core fundamentals of it, that I'm going to be honest with you.
Jake Kwan's interview is kind of like part of the reason that I've like in the last couple of days got me like love back a little bit.
I think because like, I don't know, that might be a controversial opinion, but we'll leave that until later.
But I was just like, I can buy into this shit again.
You know, but without further ado, I would love to welcome the team now.
So he knows his place.
So we're not going to bring him in, but we're going to bring your man in the big brain and just welcome him.
Hello, Mr. Spade. Are you doing okay, bro?
Did you like the intro?
GM, GM.
Yeah, I love the intro.
The like, that's literally the best intro music of of the entire spaces game as well.
And man, I don't know where you get your energy from, but but I need some of that as well.
Oh, well, Spade.
I mean, are you in our part of the world or are you traveling?
Are you on the road at the minute or are you home?
No, I'm I'm home countryside in France.
Very old style.
Oh, lovely.
Beautiful.
But you were, I think, so he told me you're over in Thailand, right?
At one point.
Is that right?
Yeah, correct.
I've lived there for the better part of two years and a half.
Wow.
Do you like it here, do you?
That's where I live, by the way.
Do you like it here?
Yeah, it's awesome.
I miss it already, but just felt like, you know, working a lot and being 9000 kilometers
away from your family and friends doesn't make it particularly easy to visit them when
you do get a break.
So I thought, you know what, for for a bit, I'll I'll go back to the old country and just
just chill with with friends a little bit.
I get that.
I get that.
I get that.
But you've also you've been in Europe, haven't you for something like conferences and stuff
recently?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we were at gateway will be at ECC or some wasm nebular modular or smoke on all
the good stuff.
So it's going to be a busy month.
Do nothing goes on in Thailand, does it?
I mean, even in Southeast Asia.
Actually, fun fact, one of the last things that I that I did before I went back was SCB
10X.
So like SCB is this big bank in in Thailand and they have a venture arm that will incubation
arm that dabbles in crypto quite a bit called SCB 10X.
And sure, it's, you know, it's a corporation, but I know them very well.
They're actually awesome people.
Awesome people.
Yeah.
And so they received a delegation from the Ethereum Foundation.
I think, yeah, this year.
And they were sort of like looking like scouting for the next place for DEFCON.
And they were considering Thailand as one of the potential host country for it.
So, you know, we kind of like lobbied a bit for that to happen.
And I think their main sort of like drawback and pain point for actually making it happen
is that sort of like one of the leaders of the crypto community in Thailand is SCB 10X.
And it's attached to a corporate entity, which is not exactly, you know, the Ethereum vision,
I guess, of like max decentralization.
Sorry to interject.
Can I give a bit of background?
Because I do know all about I work for it.
Well, I've worked.
Sorry.
In the past, I should say a past tense.
I've worked for SCB several times.
And I've worked with like the tech guys and stuff.
So SCB guys is a Siam commercial bank here in Thailand.
They are basically like like the Royal Bank kind of thing.
Like it's like, you know, the number one OG, et cetera, et cetera.
But they were also the first very heavily and cleverly to move into blockchain.
Right.
And they understood the potential of like having an interbank settlement layer on a blockchain.
Right.
On a ledger.
And they've basically like so if you go and look at Injective Protocol, I think they were one of the original like Genesis validators on Injective Protocol,
because there's like that's where Injective Protocol is going.
But I didn't want to interrupt you.
But like these are like major players, like like literally.
Agreed, agreed, agreed.
And as I said, like, I think they're extremely solid.
Actually, SCB 10X is there.
They're awesome.
They organized a bunch of Cosmos events.
They organized a bunch of like crypto events at large, usually extremely high quality.
They've been putting like incredible builders together.
Some of the, you know, some of the best teams building on Para back in the days were actually, you know, Thai.
And a lot of them were incubated by SCB 10X, actually.
So that's one hell of a really cool hub to find builders and bring value to Cosmos, actually.
So, you know, a lot of hearts onto them.
Spade, a quick question.
I have to ask you before we bring your man in.
So, are you missing Thai food?
Because I mean, French cuisine.
Yeah, I do.
I do.
Nothing like, you know, having my entire mouth on fire.
So, yeah, I do miss it.
Yum, particularly.
Did you learn any Thai when you were here?
Did you?
Chai.
Put, put, put, pass a Thai Thai.
Oh, listen, Ian, man.
Oh, pass a Thai.
Oh, yak, mark, na.
Yak, mark, mark.
Chamae?
Chamae?
Like, you know, kunsoi, chamae?
Kunsoi.
Like, guanteen.
Kau jamae?
Guanteen.
Ni-ni-noi, ni-noi, ni-noi.
Like, guanteen, ni-noi.
Like, guanteen, ni-noi.
Like, frung fring.
Like, ha-sep, ha-sep, my son.
Chamae?
Frung fring, frung fring, guanteen.
Like, and sometimes, sometimes, nam kaan.
Nam kaan, nah, like.
But, but, you know, jai-dee.
Jai-dee, mak-mak chamae?
Jai-dee.
Soi, jai-dee, mak.
Like, and I've never met him.
I love how this conversation derailed within the first, like, five minutes.
Oh, wait, hold on.
Hold on.
Wait a minute.
Were we speaking English?
Because I swear to God, I thought we were, like, it sounded like Jamaican for a second.
And I was like, what is happening right now?
That was tight.
That was tight.
Okay.
Okay.
So what, what was that, um, robo that you were saying?
No, I said, like, he's, he's like, okay.
Like, we have, like, words like, oh, like, you little cunt.
Oh, like, like, we just have these expressions of, like, oh, he's got a such a good heart.
Like, jai-dee is good heart.
Like, like, like, like, nothing I said was bad.
Put it that way.
Right.
Spade will tell you that.
Well, well, you did say that you were annoyed at him, though.
Yeah.
And I'm kind, like, but I say that everybody in my life.
I don't know about y'all, but I know Ty.
I know Ty, he lives right down the road.
And I don't know what you guys are talking about, but that's not what he sounds like.
Dude, we're only having a bit of crack.
We're going to get to the proper stuff.
So, yeah, Finn, we played your song before you come in.
So, plunder, we played it.
We had, I mean, Finn's going to have so much fun editing this beginning.
He's going to be like, robo, that's the best yet.
But, come on, guys, without further ado.
I mean, I want to bring Soi in.
But, I mean, I also want to, like, find out from Spade.
I mean, I thought, I thought Spade was, like, really smart.
So, I'm just trying to figure out how he gave, like, Soi a job.
We'll get to that.
Sorry.
Hello, Soi.
Are you doing all right, son?
You're in my neck of the woods now, aren't you?
I'm good, mate, yeah.
Well, sort of.
I'm down in Samuli still.
But, yeah, I'm over here, enjoying the weather.
Dude, you are fucked in Samuli.
I would get out of there while you can, because you're about to have no water, son.
Trust me, robo knows everything in Thailand.
Right.
Go on.
Why is that happening?
Sorry, he doesn't pay attention to the news, doesn't he?
He doesn't pay attention to the environment.
El Nino, bro.
Go to Samuli, El Nino.
What were you saying, robo?
Dude, sorry.
You couldn't pay me to live in Samuli right now.
Okay?
What's going on?
The water's fine.
Yeah, that's where all the good mushrooms come from, dog.
All of Koh Samui.
I mean, that's, like, probably one of the top ten strains.
What's up?
Just please jump on now, and look, they're trying to get the pipe over from Surantani.
Bro, you're in a water crisis on Koh Samui.
Just can't jump on the news.
The locals will not be telling you, because they don't want to.
Come on.
Well, mate, my water's fine anyway.
If it runs out, I'll worry about it.
But, mate, we got the sea right there, you know?
You know?
It's no problem.
See, as usual, it's all about the liquidity.
This is awesome.
Awesome.
I'm looking forward to this show getting started, because I can't wait to hear about another chain that us US residents can't play with.
So, please, by all means.
I think Spade knows the game now.
Like, in fact, do I break them?
Yeah.
I mean, good, you know, good time.
It's appropriate.
It's appropriate.
But just to clarify, you can use Neutron with absolutely no problem if you're in the US.
The chain is functional.
You can pay transaction fees in USDC and Atom.
You can use any protocols on Neutron.
The only thing that is restricted is purchasing the NTRN token, because it hasn't been registered as a security, yada, yada, yada.
And as a result, that would probably be very bad for you and the various teams and entities that worked on developing it.
So, yeah.
Listen, I want to get to the proper stuff.
So, Spade, what's the crack?
What's the story?
Morning Glory with this, the AEZ, the Atom Economic Zone.
And then there seems to be this break-off, like, fracture, and we're like, no, no, no, we're going to create the mesh economic zone.
Like, dude, I just want your opinion on the two, like, things and, like, what's going on.
Like, some people are saying, well, both need to exist in cohesion or whatever.
I mean, Spade, can you please, like, enlighten me?
Because you're a big brain and that's why I want to know from you, yeah?
Well, I beg to defer on the big brain stuff, but I'll still give you my opinion.
Yeah, I mean, so just a bit of context.
Replicated security is a technology that allows one blockchain to lend its entire value set and its entire stake and the security thereof to another blockchain, right?
It's a very tight sort of technical and economical and political alignment, and it doesn't scale particularly well today.
Whereas mesh is a more lightweight mechanism that relies mostly on Cosmosm and basically allows anyone to deposit some form of value on one chain to be locked as if it was staked.
In order to mint synthetic stake on another blockchain to provide security to it in exchange for a share of the staking rewards.
It's a much less intense sort of alignment, and it can be used in a much more diverse sort of range of associations between blockchains.
But it's also not as strong in terms of the alignment between the two blockchains.
And so as a result of this, I expect that both technologies will continue to coexist together and actually be pretty complementary.
Like, for example, Neutron is currently the first and currently only chain on replicated security.
That means that it has the security of a top chain, top 10 blockchain by staked capitalization along with the hub.
And a very strong alignment of incentives with the hub, right?
Neutron wants the hub to be tremendously successful because if it isn't, then Neutron is less secure or potentially will fail along with the hub.
And the hub wants Neutron to be tremendously successful because that's how it's going to get revenue from Neutron, right?
And so, you know, it makes Neutron a really good place to deploy atom liquidity, to provide, like to build some of the infrastructure that the hub wants to have without having to make changes to the hub itself so that it can remain minimal, yada, yada, yada, right?
So that's the case for replicated security.
Now, you know, if we continue to focus on the Neutron perspective, Neutron can also use mesh security.
It can't today receive security from mesh security because, you know, that would be the hub receiving security, actually.
But it can provide security.
So, for example, you know, the Neutron DAO could decide to allocate a portion of the value of its treasury to a mesh security contract in order to provide security to osmosis, injective, what have you.
Like, whatever chain the community wants to have a very close alignment with, right?
And in doing so, it would earn, like, you know, its treasury would be at risk of slashing if the validators that the value is being staked to misbehave, which is the normal proof of stake mechanism.
But on the flip side, it would also earn a portion of the inflation of that blockchain, therefore, over time, constituting a portfolio of assets representing that blockchain.
And so, in my opinion, they're actually pretty complementary things.
In the current ecosystem, there isn't a lot of chains that are eligible to be attracting attractive replicated security providers because, like, the whole point is that you get a very high degree of security and very tight alignment with another blockchain that isn't particularly appealing unless your project is extremely strong and established like the Cosmos Hub currently.
The second best would be, like, the second best would be probably, like, Osmosis because it is extremely established.
It has a lot of goodwill throughout the community and such, but it doesn't have such a high economic security yet.
What it can do, though, is that because it's very DeFi-oriented, mesh becomes, you know, very sensible.
And, for example, GAM tokens, for example, may be used as the collateral that actually allows Osmosis to provide security to other chains and vice versa, right?
So, for example, Axelor and Osmosis have very tight relationships due to the fact that Axelor is the canonical bridge for Osmosis.
So there's a lot of mutual interest in having both of these chains be secure, right?
So providing sort of, like, security to each other may be something of value in that context.
Now, one of the things with both of these technologies is that you're essentially leveraging economic security, right?
So if you're using the same capital to secure multiple blockchains, the risk that something, like, if something goes terribly wrong, then multiple blockchains get impacted, right?
So that's sort of the trade-off with all of these technologies and Eigenlayer and other systems as well.
But it's also, in practice, very hard to get there unless there's a series of very bad problems, basically.
So, yeah, my take is that both of them will exist and they'll coexist and it's going to be awesome.
But, yeah.
Bro, I fucking love you, mate, by the way.
Honestly, I could fucking, you could sing the phone book and I'll be there all day.
No problem.
Dude, I need to ask you, are you in a race, right, to, like, front run these other permissionless, like, L1s that are, like, launching in regards to, like, DAP development?
Is, like, so you've got blocks running, you know, your chain's open running, you've went through that stage.
I want to talk about that later, by the way.
I want to hear about the stress.
But, like, are you, like, trying, like, is it a race to front run to attract, like, the devs and the projects and the DAPs that you want?
Like, it's not good just having a chain.
Surely you're going to want, like, we need people to build.
I mean, what's happening there, bro?
Yeah.
I mean, I don't think we're in a run, like, in a race to front run anybody.
That's, like, maybe you confused your notes for the stride space that you may have someday or something.
Just kidding.
But it seems that a lot of projects are getting delayed.
So, you know, we just ended up shipping.
So, I guess.
Sorry, bro.
Sorry.
I mean, no, no.
I mean, Archway has just launched.
And I'm like, I mean, Juno's trying to have this, like, Phoenix resurgence.
And I'm like, like, what's going on?
Who's getting the dev?
Like, the thing is, in the IBC, Eco, you know, like, I mean, what's getting built?
Where is the, like, constant question?
That's why I was, like, like, you know, I heard a little bit of it.
Okay.
Well, let's bring Soi in.
This is where this question came in from, I think.
Right.
Joseph's down there.
Was there some crack or something this week?
What's happened this week, recently?
Let's bring this into the, you know, foreground early.
Okay.
So, I guess I'm touching on your theme of developing on Neutron and, you know.
No, I was talking about you guys getting people afront.
I was talking about you guys, like, somehow, Snowball and Avalanche and, like,
people into your eco and not developing on other permissionless, like,
smart contract platforms, like Archway, et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, like, well, the person you want to ask that directly is just me,
just beneath me in the audience.
So, but to sort of go back to your first question, what happened this week was, like,
there's been a recent proposal where TimeWave, which is a team with Sam Hart and Udit
and Max from the Atom 2.0 paper.
They're sort of proposing to build what's called a rebalancer on Neutron.
And quite surprisingly, certainly to me, this week there was, like, a competitor proposal
put up on our forum by Joseph and a few other people to sort of build the same thing,
but coming at it from a different angle.
And so, yeah, I guess it kind of, like, put the cat amongst the pigeons a little bit
in terms of who's going to, like, build this rebalancer.
But I kind of quite enjoy it.
I think it's all really sort of healthy governance, and this is kind of how it should be, right?
You know, if someone's going to put up a proposal, then it's public,
and someone's going to see that, and they think they can get a job,
they can, you know, do it better or cheaper or faster or whatever the case may be,
then they can, you know, put that proposal on the forum,
and the community can sort of chew it all over.
So, yeah, I guess, like, some controversy around it,
but overall, like, quite healthy and good to see, in my opinion.
While I've got you on the coat hanger before your boss comes in,
you're not getting away, what do you say, Soy, to the kind of comments
that I've heard from people, like, he said it was okay to mention it,
like, people like Joe, that says, oh, Neutron doesn't need a token.
Why did they not just use Adam?
So I want your opinion before your boss's, if that's okay.
Why do we not need a token?
Well, I mean, I guess this is, like, sort of,
come to the front of the debate with duality recently, right?
Because they're...
I'll add some context, wait, before you give your answer,
I'm going to honour you with some context, is that, like,
this is the rumour or what I've heard, is that, like,
the token's only there to be able to, like, pay the salaries, et cetera, et cetera,
of the team.
Now, I'm not, like, I'm not going to go down that route,
but that's what I've had in the DMs in the last couple of weeks,
and I'm not... I wasn't... not going to bring it up,
because that will be, you know...
Like, I think we need...
Well, I mean, like, it's a fairly sort of broad topic,
but one thing that you should, like, kind of focus on to start with is
because of ICS, which we talked about before, you know,
it throws up, like, all these different dynamics for tokenomics
and the way that you pay for your security.
And so the Neutron token is kind of very different
to a lot of other Cosmos tokens, particularly in that it kind of
can't be staked.
And so because it can't be staked, people will inevitably question,
you know, potentially the utility of a token
that they're used to being able to stake in Cosmos, right?
And that's fair play.
But, you know, like, I mean, you were saying there,
like, it's only there to get people paid.
I mean, first of all, we've just obviously done a fairly significant seed raise
that gives the team plenty of runway.
We don't need to be selling NTRN tokens to pay people's salaries.
And then, obviously, you've got, like, governance aspects
and various other different things.
But it is quite new, you know.
So I think people will sort of start to see the utility attached
to the Neutron token over the coming weeks when DAP starts to launch.
People start to be able to sort of vote in vaults with their tokens
whilst participating in DeFi.
And so, like I say, kind of understand where sort of the scrutiny comes from.
But I think it will play out where you do start to see the utility
of the token.
Well, I'm spot on, mate.
I'll tell you what.
I'll tell you what.
And before we bring Spade in, I want to say this guy's clearly on a recorded space
on this day, 7th of July, 2023, in my humble, very, very humble pleb opinion,
there's two community managers, I think, in the entire IBC ego that I'm like, I can't separate.
They have to put on par and say, these guys are just like in a class of their own.
It's Matt Arnold over on, shit, what's it called again?
Check.
I nearly forgot that.
And so, like literally, bang on the money.
I'll tell you what, so if it was 2am in Manchester, we'd been out on the club, son.
You'd be, you'd be a fucking, a pizza, a kebab pizza with double garlic folded over, bro,
we'd be all over it, you and me.
Anyway, Spade, so I've only got one question for you, a simple one.
Why should Newtron have like a token and why should it not have one, in your opinion?
Like, if you, if you think there's reasons why you should have one, I'm presuming, objectively, you, you can come up with a reason why that maybe shouldn't be one.
Is that okay?
Like, regarding your association with Adam, you know, you knew, I mean, this is like a genesis of a genesis, right?
Like, there you go, bro.
Yeah, for sure.
I can touch upon some of the things that we considered when, you know, when the question of whether or not to have, to let the chain have a token or to design it this way came through our thoughts, basically.
But one of the, yeah, so first, like, why shouldn't it have a token?
The first thing is that it's not required for it to have a token because, you know, like tokens in crypto for L1 chains usually serve two functions.
And the first of these functions is to ensure the security of the platform through a crypto economic mechanism that everybody here knows that is like proof of stake, right?
In our case, the proof of stake mechanism that secures Neutron is actually, you know, split across two blockchains and it uses the Atom token.
So, you know, why would you have another token given that that's already sort of fulfilled, right?
Another argument would be that in, like, you could simply base everything on the revenue that the platform may generate.
And, you know, all of this is actually pretty cool.
During some of the research and design that we did before, we considered a variety of alternatives,
including proposing to not have a token at all and have all of governance be managed by the Cosmos Hub governance module.
We considered having, like, a dual token model whereby Atom would be used for some decisions that pertain to the security,
and then another token would be used to make other types of decisions.
We considered a pretty broad range of options, actually, but some of the drawbacks associated with this is that, one, it's not very clear that the Cosmos Hub community wants to have to deal with the governance decisions of every chain that it launches on replicated security.
So, like, governance today is already quite a lot to follow.
And just having to deal with that for, you know, each additional consumer chain is probably not a great deal scalable.
It also isn't clear whether or not the, you know, the Cosmos Hub community would be exactly the same as the consumer chain projects community.
And so, therefore, there may be a bit of a misalignment there as well.
Yada, yada, yada, you know, like, there's a bunch of reasons why it could work.
And I'm excited to see some projects do it.
And especially, you know, application specific project that have a very, very clear business model and focus on, you know, refining just that, I think makes a lot of sense.
But in the case of Neutron, because it's a small contract platform and a general infrastructure for numerous, you know, businesses and team in the future, it sort of needs a mechanism to arbitrage decisions between the networks community, right?
So, you know, one of the primary functions of the token is that it allows to have, like, it allows the platform to have a civil resistant mechanism to make decisions as a distributed group of teams and people and what have you.
So, that's the first thing.
And the second thing is that, you know, it's been very challenging for a lot of projects and applications to challenge the, like, to overcome the cold start problem whereby, you know, at the very beginning of your blockchain project, the network has no users and no applications either, right?
So, the network value, the intrinsic value of the network is zero.
Now, in traditional, you know, Web 2 business models, what most projects do is that they take a whole lot of cash from investors who get equity into the company that developed the project.
And they distribute that cash to early adopters to incentivize them to basically bootstrap the demand and the supply side of the network.
In our case, that's not something that, you know, is possible to do because we're in Web 3.
Our company, you know, the equity of the Hadron Labs company, which developed a lot of that software, has zero value because we don't own any of the network.
So, we can't really do that, actually.
So, the token here is used as a mechanism that allows two things.
First, to provide, like, reward early adopters so that we bootstrap the demand and supply sides of the market that develops on top of that platform.
And two, as a mechanism to align economic velocity, like economic transfers within the ecosystem by attributing both influence over the decision-making process, but also potentially monetary value, if that token has a value on the market, to people who are contributing to the project in the most significant ways, right?
So, that includes, you know, obviously, like builders and grants and what have you, but it also includes, you know, having mechanisms so that people in the community can be rewarded for the contributions that they do at, like, any sort of, like, echelon, right?
And a lot of that infrastructure remains to be built.
And we have, you know, a bunch of ideas there that we want to execute over the next few years and propose to the DAO to be launched on Neutron.
But, you know, these things take time, basically.
So, that's sort of, like, some of the main reasons why a token makes sense.
And then, more specifically, in the context of replicated security, there's just one more point.
Oh, sorry.
Just one more point, please.
The thing as well is that Neutron is the first chain to ever launch on replicated security, right?
And so, when we were trying to think about what that would look like from the perspective of the Cosmos community, we sort of researched the economics of replicated security.
And I think we were one, if not the first team to actually look into the economics side of things.
And what we sort of figured out is that there were basically three mechanisms by which consumer chains can accrue value to the Cosmos hub.
The first one is through whatever form of revenue they generate.
So, there may be transaction fees, trading fees, MEV, what have you.
The second one is through the appreciation of the Atom token.
For example, you know, bringing USDC to be minted on the Cosmos hub, like through Noble, or could be, you know, a strong narrative as a source of liquidity, liquidity hub in the ecosystem.
And maybe that changes the perception of the market.
And maybe that makes Atom more valuable, which is a net gain for the hub, although it's very difficult to quantify.
And the last mechanism is allocating a portion of a token that is associated with that project, right?
And so, we knew that revenue would be something that would take time to bootstrap because it just does.
That's how these things work.
And that, you know, the appreciation of the Atom token is not something that you can measure.
We know or at least we believe that it is there and that without these projects or if these projects failed or were kicked out or if replicated security failed to be implemented, the belief is that the value of Atom today would be lower.
And probably that spread becomes more significant over time if things go well and the Atom economic zone becomes tremendously valuable and successful.
But it's impossible to demonstrate on paper, right, because we can't quantify this.
And so, you know, the last and most demonstrable mechanism to demonstrate value to the hub in exchange for the security that it provides to the blockchain and its, you know, involvement in the success of the blockchain was to allocate some of these tokens to it and therefore some voting power and potentially some monetary value as well.
So that's sort of like some of the elements of the thought process.
Oh, you're beautiful, by the way, dude, you're beautiful.
I'm sorry, like I tried to like some, like I'm getting questions from all over.
Like people are bombarding me with like ridiculous questions.
So, like, I do apologize for that, bro.
Yeah, I was going to say I'm going to ignore that for now.
Raccoon.
Do you see raccoon down there?
Just I don't know if you can see raccoons jumped in.
I didn't even know this speed.
Apparently they've been writing contracts on Neutron.
I think it was for Jim Racco.
Do you know about this?
I was listening to a space yesterday.
Actually, I can't remember which one it was.
And yeah, you're talking about potentially launching on Neutron, right?
No, no, they've already got contracts prepared.
I think.
I mean, I've invited them to speak.
If you would know if you'd like to jump up, by the way, this is like the perfect like time, dude.
I sent you an invite.
He might be working guys.
I mean, they're just that's all they do is grind.
But he said, oh, yeah, we've already like written some contracts like for Neutron.
And I'm like, oh, what?
Okay.
Check.
Okay.
But I think he said something like it's something similar to like G-Rack, where it's like the token that you'll earn on that particular always left.
Wow.
I'm not sure what he was saying as regards G-Rack, but one thing I did quite like about what he was saying was that you were going to have this sort of like outpost model where you'll have like raccoon games on different chains, but that every different chain would have a very slightly different game.
So that everybody's, you know, chain was different and the experience was different on every different chain.
He's here.
He's here.
He's here.
Yeah, he's here.
Hello, Mo.
Hello, darling.
Hello, matey.
How you doing, brother?
Good morning, guys.
Very happy to listen to this place this morning.
I wasn't expecting to jump in and I'm really eager to hear more about Neutron.
But yeah, basically, I think last week we released a game in Oracle on Neutron and really like what I'm seeing so far.
So definitely like in the next week, it will be releasing the platform on Neutron.
And I see also that there has been a bunch of new smart contracts on Neutron.
So I think there's going to be a lot of activity on this chain.
We're certainly working on that.
I think there's, I think there's like a lot of very ambitious things that are sort of like going on at the moment.
And a lot of them, you know, the future is never guaranteed.
And I can't say that all of them will succeed.
But, you know, if they do, I think it's going to be pretty cool.
I think we're going to get actually pretty good DeFi on to Neutron and to Cosmos in general.
So like that's something that I've been waiting for for a long time.
So I'm really excited about it.
How would you feel about Raccoon like .bet though?
Like that would be, obviously, it's Raccoon fame.
I mean, malls come up, you know, I would never like disrespect like our name.
I mean, Spade, you know, I'd be kind of like excited.
I mean, I think White Whale that just launched on like McLoo.
I think like coming like to rack .bet to be on kind of every permissionless.
And I think it's fantastic.
I think this like whole, this is where we should be going, right Spade?
Yeah, I think.
So one of the, one of the reasons Neutron was designed the way it is, is because it's actually kind of cumbersome to maintain multiple versions of a protocol for each of the chains and their specificity.
And so the whole point of Neutron is that if you invest a little bit of time in learning about its crossfit infrastructure and its SDK and all of that, you can actually, you know, make one set of smart contracts that you can use to run whatever application you built on numerous Cosmos blockchains.
And depending on exactly what you're trying to do, you may have like different like limitations, e.g. to be able to use interesting accounts with your smart contracts on Neutron.
You need the blockchain on the other side to have interesting accounts host capabilities, which is not the case of the 50 Cosmos blockchains today, but the most advanced ones actually do.
So you can definitely do quite a bit already, I would say.
So I think that's an architecture that's really interesting.
I'm pretty bullish on the outpost model, particularly the heavy outpost lean hub model, which is sort of the direction that Mars, for example, is going because it aligns very well with the interests of the platforms that the outposts are deployed on, which I think is an important component to having them being adopted, actually.
But yeah, like going for the outpost model is a bold choice.
Like, congrats, dude, guys.
Spade, can I just say something very quickly on this point though, right?
There's a lot of narratives going on.
You know, we've got this, like, we've had the AI narrative.
We've just had obviously the fucking meme narrative with Pepe, et cetera, et cetera.
But like, dude, randomness.
Listen, people can't even compute the amount of information in 2020.
Information in 24 hours that I go through.
Like, literally, like, guys, like, there's no TV in my life.
There's nothing like this, right?
Like, there's the dogs.
Like, we do our shit.
And then me, how many hours a day I look through, like, information.
Randomness is becoming really important.
And especially in regards to secrecy.
But like, our guys, man, spade, like, they're bringing, like, spades.
Like we say, you know, like, shovels.
Like, they're bringing it like you wouldn't believe.
Like, I think, I think Rack, you know, really loving Neutron is just like a match made in heaven right now.
I think this is so good for you guys and so good for us guys right at this moment in time, bro.
I mean, I completely agree.
I'm infinitely grateful for you guys coming and King making us basically into the coolest platform.
So, thank you for that.
So, mate, listen, I don't know if Rack's got anything to say.
Go on, Mo, before we kick off with another question.
Yeah, I was just going to say that it was our next target.
And so far, like, it's what we like, we use the token factory on Neutron as well.
Like everything has been seamless so far.
So, I was just wondering if you guys had any discussion to have an Oracle on Neutron yet for, let's say, randomness or crypto prices.
But yeah, so far, there's a couple.
Yeah, that's a really good question, actually.
So, Oro, which is an Oracle project that's been out of UMI recently, is deployed on Neutron.
Pith Network, the Oracle that I think was incubated by Jump, is also live.
So, they have a pretty good range of price feeds already.
And you can also connect to Band using IBC.
That's something that, for example, was done by the smart contracts of the launch event to retrieve the price of Atom from Band.
So, now we have a couple of options, I guess.
The other mechanism that you may be able to use in the future once...
I believe there's a project called Noise that's launching actual randomness as a service in Cosmos someday.
So, once that's available, you should be able to just ICQ.
Oh, sorry, wait a minute.
N-O-I-S noise, right?
Wow, dude.
We did...
Dude, you need to be...
You need to be listening to Rack FM more, mind spade.
You're not listening to Rack FM enough.
Listen to me, bro.
I'm warning you.
I'm telling...
Soy, tell your man he needs to listen to Rack FM.
We had the summit with API3.
If you know them, they're like massive.
Maul and your man...
Well, two of them from N-O-I-S.
It's Simon Water from Confio, right?
He's behind it, right?
I believe so.
I believe so, yes.
Yeah, bro.
I mean, they've already launched, yeah?
We had that summit though, bro.
You should've...
See, dude?
I'm just reminded.
Wait.
Guys, this is something that I've really, really wanted to ask you, man, live on air.
Right.
Spade, talk me through, like, the 48 hours over the launch of the blockchain.
Because, like, I saw all the shit going on with the airdrop and I'm like...
I'm like, is this happening again?
For fuck's sake.
Can people just not, like, just drop some shit and, like, try to do some shit or whatever?
Like, it was all this shit.
And I know I saw he was in the Discord 23 hours a day.
Your man was on one hour sleep.
But, like, dude, for you, technically, like, launching a chain over the, like, kind of, like, 40-hour period.
Like, tell me about your stress.
How many coffees did you have?
Like, how many hours were you awake?
I want to know, Spade, the man, you know?
Um...
I mean, it wasn't...
It was...
It was important, but it wasn't, like...
Like, that was a crisis.
Like, nothing was burning to the ground or anything like that.
So, to give a bit of context, like, when...
So, as the first chain to launch on Replicated Security on mainnet,
we had, like, us, like, our team, sorry, Informal, IFA, all of the Cosmos Hub validators, or at least all of the ones that are on the Replicated Security testnet,
practiced launching Neutron 12 or 15 times.
And some of the versions had a few issues, which was kind of the point.
You know, you want to identify as many of the problems as possible on testnet.
And so that allowed us to iterate fast, especially on the features like the soft opt-outs that were not part of the initial spec,
but were added in order to ensure that consumer chains would not create too much pressure on the bottom of the set of the Cosmos Hub early on.
And so those features needed to be developed and, you know, shipped and tested, et cetera, et cetera.
And so they were.
So that was, like, a huge process.
Now, when we got to mainnet, we were at a point where launching the chain was a process that we, that our team and the other teams knew pretty well.
And so we proceeded with that.
But the problem was that throughout these dozens and dozens of testnets, right, because, like, that's all of the Neutron testnets on Replicated Security,
but also the entire game of chain, the duality testnets and what have you, all of the Replicated Security testnet,
it turned out that no one on testnet had ever tried to run their validator and use and secure their key with a ledger or a multisig.
Because, you know, on testnet, there's no value to secure.
So even if you lose or compromise your validator key, it's not too much of an issue, right?
Now, in the context of Neutron's mainnet launch, that turned out to be a blind spot because as a result of this,
it was discovered that on the Cosmos Hub, the validators couldn't assign their consumer keys like they were supposed to do before the consumer chain launched,
which means that, which meant that in order to be able to be detected by the consumer chain,
they had to run with the same key as their Cosmos Hub validator.
Now, at the software level, that is not an issue at all.
There's no slash like double signing or any other specific software risk.
But the risk is that to retrieve your private key that you use on the Cosmos Hub and use that on another chain,
you do need to perform a bunch of operations depending on, you know, if you're using Orcrux or multisig or what have you.
And that if you don't do it properly or if you make a mistake, which can happen, you can compromise the key.
But here we're talking about validators securing, you know, millions of dollars in atoms stake.
Right. And so obviously the validators were concerned that this may impact their delegators or what have you.
Right. And so essentially we ended up in the situation where about 20 percent of the voting power on the Cosmos Hub was unable to participate to the neutral consensus,
which made it much more challenging to reach the seven like the 67 percent of voting power agreeing on the block to be able to finalize it.
And so from there ensued a period where we essentially had to discuss with a few validators to ensure that all of the ones who could would be live.
And all of the ones who were affected by the bug on the Cosmos Hub would, you know, all of the ones who could there or who were willing to, you know,
make sure that they did the operations securely would essentially retrieve their private key from the Cosmos Hub and then use that to run for a limited amount of time on Neutron so that we could get to, you know,
not only the 67 percent threshold, but a little bit higher than this, because the way that replicated security works is that the hub at every block or, well,
rather at a regular interval, the Cosmos Hub tells the consumer chain who the validators are and how much of the voting power they have.
And, you know, while Neutron was trying to get to a point where it was actually finalizing blocks, all of these updates were accumulating on the on the side of the Cosmos Hub.
Right. And once the train would launch, we would connect it to the Cosmos Hub so that it became actually like secured by the Cosmos Hub.
But that meant that suddenly all of these packets, all of these updates would flow onto Neutron.
Neutron would recognize that the validators, either their keys or their voting power had changed, which means that the voting power that is available to finalize a block would fluctuate.
Right. So if we were right at the threshold, then that meant that the chain could have halted multiple times as the updates were propagated and the validators,
you know, switched to their new key and then relaunched our validator, blah, blah, blah.
And that could have been a very painful process.
Now, fortunately, there was a lot of collaboration between all of the teams involved with propagated security and the Cosmos Hub validators and even, you know,
some centralized exchange validators like Coinbase who were willing to ensure that they would, you know, join with their initial key,
their Cosmos Hub key, enabling Neutron to get above the 67 percent threshold, start validate blocks reliably.
And that then allowed us to start a relayer, get the updates and not have halts basically throughout the process.
There were a few complications with the relayers as well, because the situation where not just a few validator set updates had accumulated on the hub before the consumer chain launched had never happened on Testnet either.
Because on Testnet, you know, the proposal to launch the consumer chain is like one minute long.
It gets voted on by the main validator on the Testnet and then it's instantly accepted and we can launch the chain 30 minutes later and then that happens.
And so it's a very quick process.
But in the case of Neutron, so that like in order to have enough time to launch the chain, we had to push the launch by two days because the Cosmos Hub needed to do a last minute upgrade on the day Neutron was supposed to launch, right?
So we didn't want to increase the pressure on the validators.
So the launch was postponed by two days.
That meant that during those two days, about 15,000 updates of the validator set had accumulated on the side of the Cosmos Hub and needed to be transferred to Neutron.
But that's so many packets that the relayers actually struggle within the short timeframe that they have to really like analyze and process the message queue within the one block time.
That meant that the relayer software that was used, like Hermes and the GoRelayer and such, were struggling to analyze the whole queue to know which packets to relay.
And so it took a few hours before we were able to tune the relayers in such a way that they would be able to like very fast, like process the whole queue very fast, know which packet to relay and actually do that, submit them to a block so that they could actually be taken into account by the chain.
So that's why I'm saying like, it wasn't stressful in the sense that nothing was broken or breaking, but it was high stake in that we had a very clear idea of the problems that could arise if we didn't manage this properly.
And there was, you know, the communications were a big part of the things because if there was no coordination between the validators and the different teams working on launching this network, there could have been pretty bad outcomes.
But, you know, it was challenging, but it happened and it happened well.
And the network has been running pretty smoothly since then.
So I think it's a, it's kind of a major like achievement.
And it also means that we've identified a bunch of problems that was not on the radar of anyone who was involved in developing replicated security before.
And that is going to help make the launch of the next chains a lot smoother because we know what to do now when these situations arise and how to avoid them in the first place as well.
The fucking community fucking like you a lot, by the way, dude, like literally, like honestly, God, like a lot of people in the community respect you like very, very highly.
And I'm going to give a few minutes because he's eating a pizza.
He just DM me.
He's like, dude, I'm on a pizza.
Wait, wait.
I'm going to ask him what it was like for him because I know he went through a bit of shit.
But I want to give, guys, we're at this stage.
I don't know how long, you know, Spade's got, like Fain, they've all been on my case, man.
Rob, all these interviews, like one hour, like they're killing me.
But I want to give a shout out to the audience.
We're at that point where it's like really respectful.
Like we've got chads like Brian from Alpha Growth, right?
We've got Youpster.
I mean, Youpster, guys, is the OG co-host from the first ever Rack FM.
Like you can press Rack FM back in the mint out, actually, if you want to.
And he's the OG co-host, like the only person with me at the time.
But we've got Joseph.
We've got Patrick, man, from Jackal, like who's been on the show a lot of the times.
We've got Mr. Fox down there.
Look at, I mean, look at the list.
You go down, Kimmy's there, Nettadeau's there, Gus is in the room.
Like, Law's here, Conlon and Bidge.
He's like, guys, I want to shout to you, oh, Zapdos is at the bottom.
Zapdos, you're right down there because you've got no followers.
Hey, guys, like if you're in the room, please, for me, like if you've enjoyed the night show,
if you like Robbo and what we do and, you know, we try to entertain and have some fun, right?
In a relaxed environment.
We're like, you know, this is like the family show where you come and you chill after your dinner
or whatever, just go and follow Zapdos.
He's right down there listening in.
He is the other half to Mull.
He's like the front end, like everything you say on Rack, that front end is him.
In any way, it's worth a follow.
Right, Soy, you're up, son.
I don't care if you fucking finished your pizza or not.
But I want to know, Soy, I want to know, Soy, oh, sorry, sorry, Spade.
Go on, what do you want to know?
I want to know what you went through, like, because I know you went through a bit of drama.
So, like, I presume you were awake for a few hours at a time.
You had a few coffees.
Never mind, like, the airdrop.
Like, what happened with, I mean, did you sleep off the Genesis or what?
Still sleeping it off.
Yeah, I mean, like, to sort of, like, get away from, like, the technical side of things.
Like, I guess my sort of abiding memory of the launch was almost like a bit of a sort of, like, an anti-climax.
Like, you know, like, everyone's been working so sort of hard to get this thing launched.
And then, like, as it launches, you realize, like, shit, like, in two weeks, like, the airdrop lands and, like, things are going to start getting real.
And, you know, the workload's just going to ramp up.
And that's exactly how it's sort of been.
So, yeah, like, when, I guess, again, the thing was, the launch date and the sort of the drama, as you refer to it as, were sort of different times.
Because there was the launch and then the airdrop and then sort of the actual launch event was a couple of weeks later.
So, when the actual launch event started, then, yeah, like, I think we made some mistakes.
We could have been better on communication.
We had some difficulties, like, getting publications out because of legal reviews.
And that had, like, a load of consequential effects for, you know, people, people legitimately not really having been well informed about the process and what they had to do.
And, of course, that was one of the big, like, kind of takeaways from the whole thing was that, you know, the sort of, like, the better prepared you are, the easier things are to deal with.
And so, that was, like, the big lesson, I think, from the last few weeks.
Field, what's it like to work with this guy?
What's it like to work with your man?
Oh, don't do that to me.
No, no.
What's it like to work with your man?
Come on.
Boy, is he getting ruined?
He's been fortunately ruined, luckily for me, I think.
No, man, I'm only joking.
Was that question addressed to me, actually?
I was joking.
I was joking, like, Spade.
I was literally joking when I was like, eh, okay.
So, like, I'm just going to give my opinion.
I think so.
Even though he might be a parent that are sometimes, would make a great colleague.
That's all I'm saying is, like, how is he to work with on a daily basis?
He's great, actually.
I like that.
But, like, what I like about him is a few things.
The first thing is that he knows Cosmos very well.
He knows the people.
He knows the tech.
He knows the projects, which is very valuable, especially since, like, as these things sort
of, like, develop, I have less and less time to be on Twitter and just chill.
And, you know, a lot of other aspects of life as well, I guess.
And so he's kind of like my eyes and ears to make sure that I'm not too in the dark with
regards to what's going on.
How often do you touch grass?
Listen, Spade, how often do you touch grass?
Not too frequently, unfortunately.
Oh, bro, you know, I'm getting to the stage.
I mean, I'm not like you and Dev, obviously, but it's like, you know, the depths of the
bear.
And I'm like, oh, my God.
I just need to spend so much time trying to, like, free up a little bit of, like, mindset
or blah, blah, stress.
Wait, oi.
Guys, listen, I mean, we're getting to that point where we've, like, talked about so much,
but we've had a request.
So, sorry, Spade, Timmy's made a request.
I love this kid, by the way.
We're going to bring him up.
Is that all right?
Yeah?
Yeah, cool.
Just one more thing as well, Robbo, if you can.
Let's bring Coyne landing page up, because he might, I'm not sure if he's actually told
you what's going on or anything yet.
Wait a minute.
No, no.
I knew, I knew he tried for the job, and I knew he missed it.
So, don't tell me that, like, wait, like, I smell, I smell something there.
Okay.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Robbo's nose is, like, one of the best in the business, right?
You can't, like, literally Robbo knows.
Nobody realises this.
Wait a minute.
Maul, tell these people how much my nose is on.
I'm a blood fucking hound, Maul, right?
One of the best, I would say.
Uh, has the bloodhound got his, uh, microphone?
Wait, no, no, I'm good, I'm good, but did you hear that?
I just, we brought Timmy up, I brought Timmy up at the same time as Maul saying, like, probably
one of the best, like, like, literally Robbo's finger.
Robbo's fat, but I don't know, they're not fat these days, because I'm trying to starve
myself to, like, like, get ready for the apocalypse.
Robbo's little fingers, man, they're in every fucking pie.
Like, literally, I know what's going on, but we brought her Timmy up.
Hello, Timmy, I know you're coming for a reason, bro.
Come on, let's bring Timmy in.
I just had a feeling you were going to bring CoinLandingPage up, so I needed to come up
and keep him in line, you know?
Um, no, really, my Twitter space was just bugging, and it's a smoother listening experience
up on stage, so please ignore me.
But it's been a great place.
Oh, no, no, no, dude, dude, dude.
That is not easy.
What are you talking about, ignore Timmy?
Come on, Timmy.
Well, I don't plan to speak.
I just, like, it cuts out every 10 seconds when I'm in the crowd.
It's weird.
No worry, Timmy, I'll ignore you.
No problem.
See, one of my friends can listen to my record.
Right, guys, sorry.
This is the first time ever, this is really important to me, on, like, about seven occasions
I said, Robbo, I only come up as a speaker because I'm getting, like, the rogue thing,
and then if I don't, it doesn't do it, and I know exactly what he means.
So, like, guys, I didn't want to mute anyone.
Like, I thought, like, I have to give some context.
It's like, I know exactly what your man, Timmy, is talking about.
So, I'm going to mute, oh, Brian's coming.
Oh, no, fucking hell.
This is good.
I unmuted everybody already because everyone knew we were joking.
Timmy, Timmy, though, I know what you mean, Timmy.
I'll chime in if it seems applicable, but yeah, just wanted a better listening experience today.
Unfortunately, guys, I believe that I'm going to have to leave you now because I am rugging somebody who has a call with me right now.
I apologize for this, but I'm leaving you.
No, no, you're good.
Listen, Spade, you're good.
You're golden.
You're beautiful.
Honestly, dude, sing the fucking phone book for me.
Good night.
Take care of your business.
We love you loads, right?
Bye-bye.
And that, people, is how you say bye-bye to a guest when they really need to run.
Like, hang on and do your shit or whatever.
Anyway, Timmy, like, dude, I had to mute everybody and say, like, Timmy's like, we've had this conversation, me and you, so many times.
He's like, dude, I can't listen unless I come up as a speaker.
I get it.
So, coin on the page, soy studio.
Soy boy.
Soy boy, too.
What's going on?
Come on.
There's Jen here before we've been Brian, then.
I'm not entirely in the loop, but I think, I'm pretty sure, coin on the landing page is going to start working for Neutron next week.
So, maybe you can hurl his worries up to do with that.
Ooh!
Wait, exclusive.
Wait, is this a Rack FM?
Oh, my God.
Imagine the smell.
Well, he feels appropriate, right?
I mean, like, this is basically where we kind of scouted him out.
Obviously, we all kind of got to know coin landing page over, like, the last, what, six, 12 months or so and stuff.
And I knew he was kind of, like, looking for a job at the time and sort of put his name forward.
Well, I didn't really put his name forward, but gave him the opportunity to sort of, like, apply for the role.
And then that was, like, the last I heard of it.
And then a few months down the line, turns out, potentially, could be working together.
So, like, I want to know exactly where we're up to.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, you sent me the link for the application, and that's about it.
But, yeah, it was a pretty long process, but it was a good one.
And just, Robo, to clarify, you said I missed it.
I think that must have been bad communication from my part.
I said I was done applying.
So, I meant I was going through it.
Apologies, bro.
Apologies, yeah.
But, yeah, I'm absolutely fucking excited to start with Neutron.
If my previous, like, terminology was incorrect, I do apologize for that, okay?
Oh, no worries about it.
By the way, excellent timing.
I just got back from a long biking trip at home, so I'm just right now capable of talking on the microphone.
Well, your man Brian, I mean, your man Brian's come up, right?
I mean, he can fucking, he can talk a fucking glass, a little bit of fucking sleep, this man.
Brian, you've been here all night, son.
You're absolutely cool.
I love Brian, by the way.
Have you enjoyed yourself?
How are you doing, Brian?
Yeah, dude, I don't, I don't know.
I'm scared now.
I don't want to put anybody else to sleep.
Like, jeez.
Thanks for, uh...
I'm only joking, man.
I'm only joking, bro.
I'm only trying to pull you off.
Come on.
That's good.
Brian, though.
Yeah.
Listen, Brian, you're very, you're very objective, right?
Listen, this is the one thing I know about Brian.
He's one of the most objective fuckers I know.
So, dude, Neutron, just give me your objective, unbiased opinion, if you don't mind.
I do have, I do have one, um, scared kind of, like, caveat in everything that I heard, and
that's kind of, like, what I came up to ask.
Sorry.
Um, my AirPods are, like, flipping out here.
Um, my, my one thing that I was, like, really wanted to, that I was scared about was the
utility of the Neutron token.
Um, when we helped out Aurora in the past, this was one of the major problems that occurred.
There, there wasn't a lot of utility outside of governance for the Aurora token.
And, um, it kind of acts like a meme coin, uh, when you have a token act like that.
So, that, that's my one fear for Neutron.
I think, you know, having it on the hub, at a economic zone, pulling a bunch of liquidity
from app chains, I think you're going to eat the lunch of a lot of other different
chains out there because liquidity attracts liquidity.
And as you're closer to the hub, it'll attract more liquidity.
So, but the, the, the token utility of the underlying and Neutron token is a little bit
scary to me.
Oh, fucking sorry.
Your man, your boss has just bailed it.
Like you, dude, you're right in the shit air, sorry.
What are you going to say?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, good question.
Um, so, I mean, like when you say he's like scared, what would you mean by scared?
Like what scares you about?
So it basically acts like a meme coin, right?
So any governance token that, um, has fixed supply is basically sort of like a meme coin
or like an NFT.
And so you, you constantly need more people and buy pressure to come in and buy the token,
um, without having the, the, the spent utility.
So I, I get that, you know, the fees and Neutron and gas goes back to the Adam stakeholders,
but without kind of like purpose of exclusive products to buy with Neutron token or, um, you
know, other things that like, you have, you have to have like exclusive purpose for the
Neutron token for it to retain utility.
And then you have to increase that utility over time.
I, I just, I just fear I, we worked with Aurora.
Uh, it was a layer two, very similar situation on top of near the Aurora token pumped from
30 cents to $30.
And then now it's back down to like 15 cents because there wasn't any underlying utility
except for governance.
Um, and so just, you know, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes.
Um, that, that's the only thing that I'm kind of like picking apart and you're like, what
the hell is this token for?
So, um, that, that's my only feedback.
I mean, that can be solved.
You can add utility, you can add apps, you can add exclusive like NFTs or whatever you
want that you can, things that you can exclusively buy with Neutron.
So there's things that you can do, but right now I don't, I don't see that perfect use
case.
Sure.
I mean, it's like, like the, the thing that the thing that the obvious difference between,
between Neutron or NTRN, sorry.
And like every other cosmos token is the staking thing.
Right.
Um, but other than the staking, what's the difference between Neutron and any other, any
other cosmos token, we look at something like osmosis as like a 1 billion supply cap or
Neutron has a 1 billion supply cap, albeit, albeit in different in terms of how that inflation
is, is distributed and held in the, in the treasury and stuff, you know, but beyond staking,
like what is the difference in terms of utility?
Exactly.
And Osmo goes down.
Um, and that's the fear.
Like, I know that, and I'm not trying to be like super defensive.
It's like, it is something that that's, you know, immediately apparent about a state, about
a token that, that isn't staked, you know, to, to sort of question the utility of it.
Um, but for me, like, like I say, it's, it's literally, it's just a, a staking utility that
sort of represented differently in, in terms of voting votes and things like this.
Now, now we can get into talking about, you know, general tokenomics issues about whether
a non-inflationary token is, is suitable as for example, money, um, you know, or, and,
and, and, you know, once we sort of get beyond money and store of value and governance, you
know, where, what other kind of utility out, out there is there for, for a crypto token.
Um, so I'm not quite sure why it's termed like kind of scary that, that, that, that would
be my thing.
I don't really see anything about the neutron token that would, would scare me any more than
any of any of the token.
Well, sorry.
Well, sorry, wait, wait, that's a good point because, uh, the minute this conversation
kicked off, he's been listening for one hour and, uh, what, uh, 12 minutes.
Right.
And then immediately this topic kicked off and he's like, well, I need to be in here.
That's respect.
Right.
So, uh, Joseph, go ahead, bro.
Yeah.
Um, the moment I heard that, uh, a little alarm bell kicked off in my head.
Um, I don't understand why you need a very express utility for the neutron token.
99% of the so-called utilities for crypto tokens are absolute bullshit.
And now you have a token that for a chain that's secured already by the hub.
So what do you need the token for?
Right.
You need a token as shares, controlling shares in governance and the tokens represent control
of the chain, right?
Uh, they don't actually need value.
I don't understand why you would even want them to be a store of value.
Why do they need utility?
And why does that scare you?
So without utility and you don't have constant buy pressure other than brand, right?
So you basically act like a meme, meme coin.
If you don't have a utility for your token.
So what will happen is you can't need, you need constant.
What's up?
I said, since when are governance fair, meme coin?
That's, that's ridiculous.
So the only utility is governance at this time.
If there's nothing important to govern, then it's a meme.
Not yet.
There's nothing important.
I mean, that's what I'm saying.
Thanks.
Right.
Just, just to jump in here, guys.
I mean, like, yeah, of course, you know, you want your, you're talking to our utility.
Um, we're talking about a blockchain that's like a month old.
So in, in, in two weeks time, Mars protocol will, will launch on neutron.
You'll be able to use NTR as, as, as collateral.
You know, and, and, and, and again, the, the, the utility, the use case that's, um, starts
to expand, doesn't it?
And, and that is, that is what's going to happen with neutron.
NTR and token will have use cases in DeFi in, in, in the same way as any of, any other
sort of token.
The, the, the tokenomic design, you know, it can be, can be debated, you know, do, do
we start with 1 million minted at, uh, at Genesis or do we sort of mint, mint, mint a billion
over, over 10 years?
You know, it's, it's different approaches, um, and we'll sort of see which, which way works.
Um, but like the way I kind of see neutron is, is like, yeah, you've had all these, these
tokens minted at Genesis and the community, you know, has like actual majority share over
that community pool, uh, once sort of all the, uh, the airdrops unlocked and stuff like
this.
And so the, the community along with the, like the early backers have control over, you
know, how much we spend, how much we emit.
And, and obviously, like you say, if, if the buy pressure is, is not as strong as, as the
sell pressure, then it's like, then, then the token price can go down.
And so it just, it sort of reinforces the, the, the point that you really need to make
good, good decisions as a community with, with what you do with your treasury.
Absolutely.
That's a great response.
Like the, the Mars coming and adding like lending utility, money market utility is rad.
Um, I just, you know, just, that was the only thing I think neutrons rad.
Like, I think like it's going to eat the lunch of like other chains, the ecosystem for better
or for worse for the ecosystem.
I'm not sure how that all totally plays out, but liquidity draws liquidity and being next
to the hub and related to the hub.
I think it's going to draw a lot more liquidity than, than a lot of the other app chains that
are launching.
So guys, listen to this, right?
I'm going to wind this down, uh, appropriately at this point out of respect for everyone,
everything.
And I am going to spin up, uh, an after party where you guys like can literally just like,
come on and say what you want.
Like, I'm not going to record the next one, obviously.
And Finn will cut all this shit out that I'm seeing right now.
So like, you know, Twitter's like temporary.
Yeah.
Finn's forever.
Right.
That's what we have to think.
Yeah.
With the Rack FM, we are building a library.
Right.
And we have like, I think the best fucking episode that we have ever fucking had in the
history of fucking Rack FM, uh, Finn, B-Bands, like, like tonight.
Historical.
It was historical.
Put this in the history books.
We're never going to forget it.
I mean, you need to let, listen, this is what happens guys with speed.
I want other people to realize this.
They were like horse and shit, like let people run.
Right.
You didn't realize that he's like, try to want to be as smart as your guests or whatever.
Blah, blah.
Don't fucking go there.
Like, that's like the worst thing you're going to do.
Bring your guests on, get that shit out there.
And then like discuss and blah, blah, blah.
And so, like I said tonight, I mean, that's a, I think from Robbo.
That's quite a high level of respect.
Let's say like, I think between like soy and my old, I can't decide who's like the best
community manager, like of the year.
The very fact that you're like in the run for like the top two, I think it's just fucking
insane.
And that's me making that decision with myself.
Like, that's quite weird.
But that, that is like the real shit.
I think, I mean, guys, I'm going to end this with this statement.
And this has been getting on me all week.
The Jay Kwan interview accelerated this, right?
I'm fucking sick.
Being with IBC.
And I'm not going to say Cosmos.
That's a dirty word.
I've got tweets going back two years saying, don't talk about Cosmos, Cosmos, Adam, Adam.
It needs to be IBC.
I've had this dream for such a long fucking time.
And like, you know, I've lost it and I've regained it.
I've lost it.
I've regained it.
And, and now I believe in this, you know, most people don't even know what IBC fucking
means.
Honestly, that's the, like the weird thing about this.
Like it's, it's embarrassing some of the shit and like people just don't understand
like tendermint, blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, when I listen to Jay, the other, like he put me at like peace.
Like I'm like, okay, no matter what happens with the divisions or blah, blah, I'm going
to go down this rabbit hole.
I'm going to go down this route.
And it's again, what we're seeing tonight, you know, we all want to see developments with
inter-chain security, inter-chain accounts, et cetera.
You know, Polyton's kicking off.
I mean, there's just, at the moment we've got people like Don Kryptonian, by the way,
when I wake up tomorrow, eh, I don't think it's going to be a good day for Don Kryptonian.
That's all I'm going to say, right?
Do with that what you will.
That's up to you.
But, eh, tomorrow I'm going to wake up, right?
And all the shit that we've heard lately with like Jake and Stargill, ah, I'm sick of it.
How are we going to move forward in some direction, right?
I think that's all everybody cares about.
How do we get better, right?
And that's my little rant.
Finn, I know you've been recording all like you sly little cunt.
You got anything to say, Finn, before we end this out?
Ah, he's driving.
Right, goodnight, B-Bans.
Goodnight, darling.
Goodnight, yourself.
Goodnight.
Bye, guys.
Bye, guys.
Thanks for having us.
Oh, so you're a legend.
I love you all.
I love you a bit.
Me too.
So you could shit in me garden, and I'd be fine with you.
Dude, you're golden.
Don't worry about that.
Anyway, take care.
All you is, you know, go and hug your family.
Robbo can't, so you fucking should, right?
Goodnight.
