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RAC FM🦝 Welcomes Mr Big Cup back in the Studio 🎙️ P/By Alphagrowth.i
Recorded: May 7, 2025 Duration: 1:12:49Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Big shout out guys, for anybody that doesn't realize a big shout out to cosmic agenda
They're doing great work notifying everybody. You know in the equal about what spaces are happening
Definitely give these guys a follow
Definitely make sure that you switch
notifications on okay and they'll keep you updated
i just wanted to like give a little minute to you know shout out like you know people who do work
uh with nothing kind of like in the background like they're not doing it for anything you know
they're just like informing people of you know what's going on uh
what's happening in the crypto sphere especially in regards to you know the old school uh cosmos
communities so for want of a better word uh let's see if we can get our b-bands in as a co-host
in as a co-host b-bands are you there darling i'm putting adulation on uh cosmos uh agenda here but
i think it's well deserved well warranted for want of a better word uh oh right red eyes here
so we've got a co-host for sure i don't know that much as reese knows it's very important to get your anchors uh down you
know you need a good co-host hey it's what spaces are all about without the good co-host you're
gonna fly blind at times all right mr red eye we've just finished mr red eye so we've just finished there's the red eye so we've just had a nice little warm up
GM GM can you guys hear me alright
on this mic yeah you're fine bro
you're a lovely brother so we're nice and primed
for a race right just had a nice little
warm up there yeah
oh uh tires are warmed
up engines warmed up
roads looking good we're ready to roll
we are and on that note guys I would just request
if you don't mind I would like for everybody to if you don't mind retweet out the room all right
no matter how big or how small your follower base is retweet them retweet it retweeting out the room
that was a mouthful retweeting out the room will
actually you know help us obviously as a channel to try and grow and on that note i mean let's
begin and we're always going to begin in the same like fashion the same way and we're going to say
in fact i'll tell you what guys let's do an npr beginning because you know
finn's finn loves an npr beginning doesn't he right you know what things like yes it's a good the 7th 2025 and we are living in exponential times apparently and yeah we've uh we hit race
up right last week and i was like race it's been a long time bro it's been a while do you know what
i mean you've got to be cooking right he's got to be working on something and he's like yeah it's been a while let's go and
i'm like yes brother and reese i mentioned something to red eye earlier uh dude reese
three and a half years ago brother i met you you feel like another brother from a different mother
yeah you met me at the start of my crypto journey i was thinking about that whenever i scheduled
the space i was like it's it's been either yeah three and a half or four years now so which is insane to me so i think
you guys are my longest you and rome are my longest time supporter which is kind of wild
it's just like how everything happened to to come out of dude i'll give you a fact here we were big
fans and talking to you pre uh osmo validator uh pre pre osmo note right yeah you know what i
mean everything because that was like i just started in cosmos i was just a cosmos baby at
the time like i knew absolutely nothing and how how times have changed mate it was it was i'll
tell you when i first met you was the uh uh, the LUM debacle. And obviously like you were just like starting out and you know,
craft was a thing and blah, blah, blah.
But, uh, it was like the LUM debacle.
I was actually thinking about like December, 2021, right?
Yeah.
That, that lines up because we'd started to craft.
I'd started there like October.
So that was like, I was just getting into it.
Oh, mate, you're such an enigma and i want to make this clear like for the audience and the replays and everything
like so for anyone that might not know this uh it's like a double-edged sword right well not
exactly a double-edged sword for what is a better word but you might know what i mean is that like
better word but you might know what i mean is that like ragfm has always complained about devs
that spend like every minute of every day like tweeting out and they're on twitter and they're
talking on spaces and they're the omnipresent whereas like actual people who build real are
like not omnipresent like on social media of every minute of every day and like
having all these grandstand and like appearances because why well they're actually busy building
shit and it's quite important to understand that like we know that at this point right
red eye we know this at this point there are builders and there are builders right
and there's a big different like
there's a distinct difference yeah brother oh yeah well i'm thinking like if you look at actors
and stuff you know like i feel like the best actors uh of our generation are the ones that
we don't see uh doing all this uh promo stuff and out uh in public doing all these different cameos and stuff. It's like they're
focused on their craft. They need for people to be able to suspend disbelief whenever they're
watching a movie. I know it's slightly different, but like, yeah, there are builders that are out
there, in quotes, builders out there talking to people every day on spaces and there's people uh that are in the
command line and ide trenches uh day in and day out and they pop up every once in a while to tell
us hello and uh today's one of those days yeah man i mean what we always do is you see if it's
someone new it's always a different like podcast format right
you know you want to find out who they are how they're going right not who they are but how
they're going to crypto essentially blah we've never like gotta have that conversation with
race because we've had the conversations before so i did go back and actually listen to our last space race.
All was dying. I mean, you were you were on form shit talk and like certain people that we might bring up towards the end of this conversation.
Because I know B-Banz is down there and I know I know B-Banz is laughing about this.
this however uh last time we spoke right race you were full-on strange love all the new modules
etc we we dude we know the track record right uh there's been a lot of pivots we've seen a lot of
pivots within like you know cosmos uh we've seeing a lot of pivots of a lot of people
towards things like uh eigenlier etc etc this is what i meant uh race when i said you were like a
double-edged sword like we don't know what you're working on we don't know what you're kind of
cooking on because you don't tweet out that much. So this is like the perfect time.
I mean, Rhys, can you tick it off?
Could you tell me at the minute where your time is being spent
within whatever organizations that you're working within?
Yeah, I've got a bunch of different projects,
so I'll outline them and then we can dive into each one specifically.
But I'm still doing work on Spawn.
It's not paid, but i know evm distribution is the most important thing that cosmos could ever do so i've been doing that in like my side time of supporting it in distribution and working with
other teams like 10 planet um there's a couple others linked in there as well that like want to
use this sort of work the icf then took my like documentation for spawn
uh plagiarized it and then i had to like go after them like you literally copied my stuff directly
so there was some like fun stuff there that i got to deal with recently uh worked on cosmos proof
of authority module and token factory those are widely used across many different networks um those
have both been audited now so So past my first two audits
there, pretty exciting for code bases I've been working in since literally 2022. I've been working
on a new markdown tool called Doci, D-O-C-C-I, which is documentation CI, where I wrote a engine
that allows for anyone to write tests without writing code.
And you just write it in like markdown files, which are human viewable things like you can
find on a repository like GitHub.
So not only are you documenting how the flows of all of this works, you're also documenting,
you're also testing that documentation, which has never been done before.
So that's been a fun side project.
I've been working on stocks on chain to bring equities onto a mainnet and how that works with rebasing tokens, how that works with the AML compliance, KYC compliance, all of that, and how those processes work onto chain.
with work on to change.
I'm working on Waves for Wazi components
and getting in DialDevX there
using those other tools like Doki.
Within that, working with Jake and Noah
and the other crack team members there.
Working on Eigenlayer to Cosmos Proof of Authority
so that way that an Eigenlayer operator set
can control a Cosmos chain entirely as the validator set
and rewards are streamed back up
to the delegators
of the operator set on eigenlayer instead of on the cosmos chain because cosmos doesn't know how
to do rewards i worked on in december shielded erc 20 assets for the central bank of brazil
so i got a proof of concept up for them they were highly impressed and that used cosmos evm as well
as penumbra and then like a middle chain and relayers and all that work there.
So those are like the high level things that I think I've done over the past roughly six months.
All right, bro.
Fucking calm down for a minute.
I mean, Jesus Christ almighty.
Red Eye.
Where do we start?
Where do we unpick right okay
how many joking this is why we love reese and why like you can start a space by just like diving
right in uh reese spawn is it a well actually first of all i think we'll i'll broach this
subject are you just freelance at the minute, Rhys?
Or are you committed to one particular org at the minute or what?
I do multiple things for multiple orgs.
I would say I'm more freelance than anything.
While I do technically have contracts with people, I'm always doing side work.
Last year, I launched six production Cosmos chains, like into main nets.
I find things to do on top of what i'm already
committed to doing uh with other orcs and right spawn so we obviously we know about spawn we're
being right is it a is it like a pet project of yours is spawn something that you you know you've
held birth and you really want to see it like generate into something like you know
physical and being used like regularly or what explain the thesis behind spawn from your point
of view yeah my original thesis okay like every year i need a big project year one in cosmos was
like interchange local interchange for how to run test nets because running Juno and those other things, constantly hitting issues with how to set up these complex environments.
Great. I solved that.
The next biggest issue, as I'm talking with teams, is how to actually create these networks.
Well, it's like I have the expertise, but I can't give someone else that expertise in a reasonable amount of time.
that expertise in a reasonable amount of time. What if I just built a tool around that? And then
What if I just built a tool around that?
the monetization strategy was automatic chain upgrades, which I did successfully with both
ThorChain as well as Andromeda ran that upgrade code there. So Spawn was like proved successful
there. So it solved that, which was back with the old ICF. And then now it's kind of morphed into
I handle distribution for Cosmos in terms of, you have two paths you can go.
You can go Ignite.
That's been around for a long time.
That's fine for the most part if you just want a chain and you know dev well.
If you don't know dev well and you want a great user experience, you have to go with Spawn.
And while I've already solved it with Spawn in the past, it's like, what does it look like now?
I built Spawn in such a way that it's easy to maintain.
And moving now into this maintainership of it, how do we add things like Cosmos EVM?
How do I add that quickly?
Where I can spend, I think I spent six hours to add Cosmos EVM support.
I literally had it within an hour of them posting the support that they bought out,
the Cosmos EVM from Epmos.
Like, great.
We have the entire distribution for that now.
Everyone that's been requesting Ethereum support from me for over the past year, I
now can go send that out to them and they can launch a chain in literally a matter of
minutes. And I see it more as I've already solved the problem here.
If I have to spend incremental time to fix others problems that I know I will get future contracts from or just others that have helped me in the past
why don't I spend that little bit of time because of my knowledge because as
of now no one else is willing to spend that because they don't have the context
of how to both run an EVM as well as a Cosmos chain it's such a niche group
that someone's gonna do it and if it's not gonna be group that someone's going to do it. And if it's not going to be anyone else, then I'll take that on.
Oh, I like that.
Dude, honestly, mate, I feel like you've prepared for more for this conversation than we have.
Like, red eye, do you get that feeling?
Like, I'm like, I'm underprepared, you know?
Well, I've known, you know, I, you you know reese i've been following what you're doing
uh a little bit more loosely than the rack fm folks um but you know i've seen you being a really
important contributor to a wide variety of like fairly large organizations and so i guess my
questions kind of come from someone who uh is also trying
to help run some of these larger organizations and helping projects that i believe have um
really good product market fit and staying power being able to make sure they have long-term
sustainability and so like one of my um questions you is like, we've seen a lot
of builders, at least in the cosmos ecosystem, seemingly getting burnt out, whether they're
explicitly stating it, or it's implicit. And I guess a few questions for you. One,
are you tired? And two, what have you if you are not let's say perpetually tired what have you done
to make sure that you haven't like gotten burnt out yeah on your comment with builders
i don't think builders are getting burnt out it's more so builders are being pushed out by
factors behind the scenes that are that are on. I've talked with a lot of
top tier, like the top of the top Cosmos contributors that most people would know.
And they're essentially being forced out. I almost was also being forced out of,
like your hand is tied behind your back, it's pushed up. And then you're kind of told you can
either like go this way, or you're just going to to hand it over to us. And it's like, well, this is what I focus on. So
I think that there's less burnout, and it's more that, and then also the financial aspect of it is
whenever you have your hand behind your back like that, then they're going to give you lower salary
numbers, so you're not as incentivized to work. Am I tired of Cosmos?
100%.
The way that I have resolved,
like how do I not be tired
is I moved out of Cosmos
and go into the Ethereum land.
There's a lot more money there.
There's a lot of learning there.
And there's a lot of core competencies
that I have in Cosmos
that I can then transfer over to EVM.
And now how can I bridge the gap? Because really no one up until I would say, like no one was really thinking about
it until the ICF bought the Cosmos EVM. I've been working on Cosmos EVM stuff since last year,
like January. So it's like, it's been a high priority of mine. No one's really found the
correct solution. Now we finally have a proper solution.
Great.
How can I push that forward?
Okay.
Now there's all these new challenges to solve that I know developers are looking for.
And so because I'm so deeply interwoven with other developers, I understand where are their
pain points?
What are they already trying to do?
Great.
If they can't do that today, can I solve that for them?
And will that help with burnout and
these things? Yes, because it'll allow them to pivot over to other networks like Base, like
Ethereum, like Arbitrum, and be able to move into these other things. Sure, they have their own
issues, but they don't have the money issue and they don't have the talent issue like we have over
here. And I think that more devs are going to continue to move over to Ethereum because it
pays much better. It's just overall a better experience based off what I've had. I'm still over here. And I think that more devs are going to continue to move over to Ethereum because it
pays much better. It's just overall a better experience based off what I've had. I'm still
early in it, you know, relative to December of last year, but I've enjoyed it much more than I
have. It feels like Cosmos early days over there and I don't have to rewrite tooling. Like it just
works. And it's like, that's what developers want. And now I understand why the EDM has been so powerful compared to Cosmos and Cosmos stacks. Yeah, it almost seems like, you know,
Cosmos has been this great sandbox for experimenting. And then when you have
experiments that are successful, they potentially reach like this threshold or this top much quicker
than they would in another ecosystem
because of lack of liquidity or lack of other developer tooling or whatever. And so I could
definitely see, and I like your distinction there, you know, the difference between being burnt out
and being pushed out, but I could see a lot of these successful experiments looking to bring
that talent, that code, that, you know, that code that, um, you know,
the community that they built and extend that to larger ecosystems with
liquidity. Um, so yeah.
Yeah. But you're also coming into that aspect with foresight.
So foresight is an incredible, like, you know, something in your armory,
isn't it? Like red, I like if you've been through those trenches, if you've been through that experience, like, do you it i think is going to help you succeed a lot more in the future because you're
less likely to make that same mistake so at the minute at the minute it's like almost like there's
been a line uh drawn in the sand so race let's let's, let's broach kind of like the first major subject is POS versus POA.
Right. So, you know, a lot of us have like we're not devs or whatever, you know, we're just people who've got into crypto and, you know, with those kind of people.
Right. But we learn, you know, and proof of stake.
you know and proof of stake uh there's a lot of people that i know that have been standing on the
outside saying like this is just just not right it just doesn't work it doesn't you know doesn't do
what i say is on the tin and then all of a sudden uh or now we're moving into that you know the
realm of like proof of authority so reese kind of like can you you probably know exactly where i'm coming
from with this question and i'm not the best person to ask it actually i'm not the most
technically minded but you know proof of stake versus proof of authority why would proof of
authority kind of like room rule supreme why is it like the kind of like you know maybe gold standard to what we thought proof
of stake might have been i don't know you explain to me race what i mean like what i'm asking yeah
so we got we have two these mechanisms proof of stake which is where general token holders will
stake their tokens and earn rewards in the network. And then proof of authority is where a single authority
runs the nodes like proof of stake.
But instead of an actual token underlying it,
this is similar to how Noble runs in a couple other networks,
the proof of authority network is just numbers in a database.
I'm going to give a hot take,
and then I'll explain why proof of authority is superior.
The hot take is that passive holders of tokens should not be the owners of the upside in these protocols.
One, because they're like not protocols at all.
I mean, there's very few.
Like something like a stargaze is one of the exceptions here.
But most of these things, they really are just liquidity events on passive holders.
Any way that you look at it, it doesn't make sense unless you are the team that is controlling it.
A lot of these Cosmos networks are pretty much proof of authority anyway.
Look at something like Mantra with these foundation tokens of insane amounts of value locked up by their team that they have control of, of voter rights.
So what they've essentially done is they've taken multiple class shares where you have like where one class would get more votes than another.
But instead of having that,
you're just putting it all onto the liquid token.
Now you inflate that token amount, great.
You have the voting rights.
So people that aren't aware of how like investments work,
you're just going to be pushed out of it,
both by inflation, by these other things.
So proof of authority is just running a blockchain network
like an actual computer network.
While proof of stake is just running a blockchain network like an actual computer network, while proof of stake is this very rarely able to be executed on properly mechanism for liquidity, which is great if you want a liquid token And if that's the case, I don't know why you would want other token holders or other investors at this early stage, unless you absolutely can't raise
money from someone else. Because yeah, you go sell $2 million for 20% of your company to some VC,
that's probably ample liquidity. But why do that if I can just go give a couple of percent
for a massive amount? And it's just, there much more risk and there's sure there's more liquidity but proof of authority is
the way to go if you actually want a real product like something like a noble and it will just plug
in just like proof of stake i wrote the proof of authority module for cosmos back in 2023 like 2023
and it there's no migration path.
Like any token could easily migrate to that.
Great.
We have to find some other mechanism for value accrual,
but hardly any of these tokens have value accrual anyway.
So it's like, there's no need,
there's no reason not to migrate to proof of authority.
And there's no reason to not start with proof of authority because it depends on proof of stake under the hood.
And then you just remove proof of authority
whenever you have a token mechanism that works. It's like, there's no reason not to
do that other than you just can't sell the token. Technically, you could still sell a token just
like through token factory or something. But ultimately, that's not what I want my money
and I want it now is how founders are coming at it. Is that fine? I think investors
think that they are getting upside and they've been sold a dream constantly time and time again.
And that's another reason I think that these people should not have any upside because there
should be no upside for them because there should be a real protocol. So that's my take.
You know, so somebody, i was having a conversation with someone
right and they were trying to like describe uh proof of stake as imagine if it's like sort of
like you know web 2 or just like a traditional business proof of stake will be tantamount to like
eternal uh dilution is is that how you kind of like say a proof of stake like chain is it's like
for any investor that's coming in like let's take out the founders you know you let's bring in the
plebs it's like almost like eternal dilution is that right or not yeah it is and it's no real
company like that that you would raise funds from would ever accept this if it wasn't a token. I could
not go launch a class A share from a startup company and say, hey, by the way, I'm going to
every single day give out this many amount of shares over the course of a year to these other
people that will give me money based off of the current market rate. They're going to be like,
that's insane. It's like, yeah, because it is. So it is like infinite dilution,
but it benefits the people that are at the top.
So yes, it's like a Ponzi scheme.
If you get in early, like great,
you're going to be heavily rewarded
until the entire thing collapses,
which we've seen time and time again,
these things do collapse.
It's just a matter of time.
I don't know of a successful proof of stake
that's like actually grown significantly
my only thing would have been like thor chain but that has other issues uh relative to that
so i don't know what like a long-term sustaining proof of stake looks like
maybe gaming but even then that's a stretch and not been proven out so proof of authority
stuff with the way forward well this is i mean i did i was gonna pivot but this is like triggering me
because it's almost almost three years ago that rama and i were saying the app chain thesis is
dead and like what we meant by that was you know a lot of chains were being spun up on cosmos just for the tge you know validators uh
genesis delegations were getting rage like blah blah blah you you know it's like i'll scratch your
back you scratch mine the old boys club blah blah blah do you think maybe like i don't even know what to phrase this reese this might be a massive question
where do you think like cosmos went wrong in the overall kind of like aspect of the whole thing
whether it's like the stake and module you know with the rewards that then could be like farmed and like where do you because
in our opinion like cosmos and you know that the internet of blockchain should have been some of
the greatest technology ever why did it not happen why did we not get that like that network moment
race where like everything on cosmos exploded why did it go the opposite way
yeah there was definitely no alignment which is hard in this system that you're building that
hey we have this ibc thing you can each have your own you don't need us as the hub now they're trying
to redo that do i think that's going to work i don't think so but there was no alignment there
so that was definitely a missed opportunity number Number two, you had mentioned the, yeah, proof of stake is definitely the biggest thing there of, this is twofold.
One, proof of stake, easy money.
This is just massive TGEs, as you mentioned.
But number two, there was no way to actually launch a chain product without a major team of these engineers.
So it wasn't like some hobby person could come in like they could today with something like a spawn or create react app and things like that, of how do you actually
come in to build something on top of this? It's like, we can make all these promises, but that's
all we can do. And the market ate that up. And now all of those projects, the ones that did have
solid teams were heavily impacted from the Terra collapse there. And just consistently being hit by something.
If it's not something developer-related,
it's something economics-related.
And if it's not that, it's going back to...
So it's just all around, I think,
everyone navigates towards greed.
I mean, that's just innate human behavior here.
And whenever you have multiple different parties
doing it
at the same time everyone kind of ends up ends up doing the same exact thing and we continue to see that we saw that then we see it now everyone will continue to align to that so it's like the system
is doing exactly what it should do based off of people being people and i don't think you can
solve for that and trying to build systems that maybe are ai generated I don't think you can solve for that. And trying to build systems that
maybe are AI-generated, like AI-based, where you can remove this. But the problem is they still
need some initial prompt that goes into that. So are there ways to mitigate it now more than there
were back then? Yes. But they can still easily be manipulated and changed going forward unless
it's absolutely immutable, which really nothing is in software so race
we've been having this like hypothetical kind of like conversation recently so we've seen what
happened with neutron uh the mercury upgrade i would love your opinion on that by the way
so in hindsight i mean hindsight's great right but let's say you can rewind you know uh six six years
ago six and a half seven years ago right like if you were in charge would you have like say delayed
the launch of of what ibc was intended to be essentially but would you have like launched
with like shared so i'll tell you i'll give you the pretext of the
conversation race a lot of us were saying that essentially we should never have seen all of
these chains we should have just seen a shared security model where they did leverage that
security of the hub which was like know, a decent level of security.
Like if we'd seen that from the beginning,
would we be seeing like a massive, like huge success
in regard, you know, obviously if we take like
the early Neutron into account, like,
would we have seen this huge success or what?
Yeah, what you essentially just described was
Ethereum L1 and L2.
It's the same thing.
There's some form of alignment there.
Would that be success
i mean again i wasn't here six seven years ago i don't know if they were already thinking of
what a shared security model looked like i know cosmos was already ahead of of its time it was
just the execution because of the lack of of teams i don't know if that was just funding or just
individuals interested in that sort of work it looked like it worked on ethereum just fine so
like would i have delayed IBC?
You almost have to prove it out first. And I know that like Osmosis and the hub really proved it out.
But I know that the initial plan was for the hub to be a router. And I think that would have worked if you initially sold it as not as everyone runs it. If you say like, yeah, you go through our
services and stuff, but we'll take a fee fee like there would have been some form of alignment back to adam and that was
the original thesis in the white paper and we've seen things like layer zero now take up i think
layer zero is beating ibc in terms of number of connections to eth and that's only going to
increase with cosmos on it on or evm on cosmos so delay So delaying IBC, I wouldn't have.
I think that being more permissioned with IBC
probably would have made more sense just to get started.
And then all things would have pointed back to Osmosis and the hub.
And then like a real hub would have emerged
rather than some hub that calls itself a hub
and then has to like backfill into it with the shared security.
And then turns out that shared security actually doesn't even pay money if you're not taking a fee
from the incident or all of the inflation that's happening. So I think it's tough to even
go back and say like, what could have been the perfect solution there? I think a more
permission solution would have probably fared better rather than trying to have everyone build up a bunch of app chains with absolutely no ideas.
Having the foundation maybe push ideas for things.
Like we're going back now to like Gravity Bridge where instead of Gravity Bridge now on the hub, it's going to be this new Stride Dex on the hub.
It's like we're continuing to go back to the same things that may have worked in the past.
Will they work now?
I don't know.
Times have changed. It's a very different environment so we're we're in a weird state of cosmos yeah i mean
we've we've been trying to figure this out for a long time to to us plebs and i'm just gonna put
this on the table like we are plebs we are non-cord plebs are just trying to figure out
we are plebs we are non-code plebs are just trying to figure out to us it was like the
whole ball most created itself right and it didn't realize that like osmosis when the
stargate upgrade went through and the ibc channels etc came like you know live like it's almost like
the hope didn't realize that osmos could just like you know communicate with a cash without even having like
go through the hub or talk to the whole ball it's almost like the hub became non-existent almost
like apart from being able to supply liquidity on like major exchanges like you know what i mean
race it was like why do we need the hub? Exactly. Yeah. Because Cosmos, this is something I've been thinking of for years. It's like Cosmos really doesn't need a hub
because it goes against IBC's core thesis. So that could be another reason it doesn't work
is you actually have this thesis of you don't need a hub with IBC and wait, we need a hub to
have IBC so we can sell tokens so we can fund development here. So you have this catch 22 of
you can't win either way.
Either you need to support IBC or you need to have a hub.
You really can't have both.
And now if you're trying to mix them,
again, maybe it works with Eureka.
The teams that I've talked with that are like looking at Eureka
just want to run it themselves, just like they do normal IBC.
They don't want to run it through the hub.
Sure, like Ellis and a couple others are going through the hub,
but in conversations that I've been directly with with teams, like, no, we don't want to run it through the hub. Sure, like Ellis and a couple others are going through the hub, but in conversations that I've been directly with with teams,
like, no, we don't want to have to pay the hub rent.
If we'll do it, we'll just use something like a layer zero
or something else instead that will charge way less
than what the hub would,
because the hub will just jack rates in the future,
and now you're locked in, and definitely don't want that.
That's against the core thesis of IBC.
Red Eye, I mean, Red mean red eye look you're involved i just want to i don't want to like control the mic but you got anything on the back of this or what yeah i'm just thinking about you know the
value of connecting you know i'm a contributor to an app on secret and uh it seems like there are some times when it would be let's say easier for uh
applications looking to support new chains or assets on chains if we just had to worry about
them having a connection with the hub and then if our chain had a connection in the hub it makes
everything easier for these smaller chains because it might be harder to get relay or support for maintaining that
particular channel. But something like just a simple hub connection would be
a lot easier to maintain. That being said.
Yeah, and this works recently. Like recently
teams have been able to have small teams to, or yeah, teams have had small
operations that can run and build up a protocol.
But in the past, it was not, you needed a large team, like in Akash, like someone else,
to actually be able to build this up. And if you had a team of that size, you can figure out the
relayers and all that. So this is only a recent development that you can have a team build a
smaller chain, figure out the relayers and all of that. And so it's just, it's like a timing thing,
a development thing, just where the tooling has been,
where focus has been improperly allocated.
There's a lot, there's a whole host of things there
for why that works now and didn't work then.
Did that sort you out there?
I mean, B-bands, welcome our darling. Welcome our darling. GM B-bands, have you out there? I mean, B-Bands, welcome our darling.
Welcome our darling.
GM B-Bands, have you been listening over your brunch?
Yes, I was trying to, but I didn't want to be rude to my husband, so I had to put him.
He's like, you don't have brunch?
And I'm like, I hate telling him no, because I always put you guys before him, so.
You're fine.
You're fine.
Can I just declare that Reese is on fire is it can be bands red eye
can anyone else agree with me race is just like it brings so much heat like he is so on point
race listen we had a space last night and i made the announcement of the show and i was like our
favorite like artist and it's a tongue-in-cheek like joke for anyone that knows like the crack like
You either know or you don't know the right red eye you remember last night now and it's a true story
Raish you've got a phenomenal ability
To explain complex topics in very easy ways for like plebs like us to to understand. And that actually means a fucking lot.
Right, Red Eye, Bay Bands?
Yeah.
Yeah, didn't you finish your like,
bachelor's in like, technology
in like, 92 days or something?
Exactly, yeah.
I did my bachelor's in tech in 92 days.
And I was actually looking a couple weeks ago
at like, doing a, either masters or a PhD.
And I was like, what could i do that in and i need to
still call them and stuff to figure it out but it's probably not worth it but i honestly want to
do like a phd in like less than six months including like the full dissertation and everything so
oh my gosh do you know what we're doing
let rob all the professor come in so race uh i'm on your wavelength listen i've
already read like master's level english so i can talk to you all day about the difference between
like you know forensic linguistics versus acoustic linguistics like i've got masters level lockdown
never done the masters in my life like i've just read it myself i am reading uh phd level english
and i i've been reading phd level english actually for about now four to five years probably and i'm
probably going to keep going so like i'm not going to say like you know self-teaching is like the
way forward i'm just going to say that you know no no qualification or piece of paper will ever define a man right i mean i'm not
i'm a man i'm not a woman so i'm going to declare you know like the man status i'm going to give the
man points right no piece of paper can like the knowledge that you can acquire uh just within your
own remit on your own is like if you work work at it, it's phenomenal. Now I personally race have seen your growth.
Your growth has been insane dude in the last like few years.
I mean, you almost have a brain going at 90 miles a fucking hour.
Yeah.
The, like, I'm looking at this.
I don't, I haven't even seen my bachelor's degree.
Like I got it in my mom was all excited. Um, cause that was a big thing. It was like a big thing. I was like, I need to go. I didn't even care. I was like,
she opened it. So I don't even know where it is. I've never even looked at it. I know I graduated
with honors distinction, all that stuff. That's all I know. So I'm doing this more as a side
quest just of like, hey, here's hard things. I want to learn physics for some other products
and things that I have ideas of. I don't care about the piece of paper. I care more about,
honestly, like if I was to get a PhD,
it would just,
it would be literally just for the doctor abbreviation before my name.
Like that would be the only thing just to be like, yeah, I did it. Oh yeah.
And I did it in this time because my time can very much well be spent. Hey,
I'll go get another job or do something that will actually make me money and
I'll go learn something rather than do it it's almost
again just a side quest that's literally all i care about i'm sure i can learn it off
you know there's some other titles you can buy that would probably be cheaper i'm pretty sure
you can become a yeah i'm sure it's cheaper but i know i would want like the legit thing
yeah i would want it to do it legit be like no it was like an actual degree like accredited like
here i did it in this amount of time it's kind of like my bachelor's because again, with my bachelor's degree, as you mentioned,
like 92 days of that 92 days, I took off half of them because I was bored.
So if I pushed forward, I could have done it in 45 ish, like actually had worked on it.
And that was something that I should have done.
And I probably wouldn't want to do this if that was the case, if I did it in that 45,
but it's almost just like a fun challenge that, hey, if't already have enough on my plate can i throw that on there too
do you know i saw bay bands on mutant bay bands you got anything before i come in with this like
sledgehammer no no no it's all right he stopped flexing on himself i was like all right you're
we get it you're're smart. We got you, Rakefem. But he stopped.
He stopped. So I was like, alright,
he's good. He hit that, like,
limit before the wrap-up music comes
on, you know?
Yeah, so, like, Rakefem, just to let you know,
you can take, like, Rakefem
out the slum, but you can't take the slum
out of the Rakefem, and that's
B-Banz's comment right there.
So, yeah, I mean, sorry, but... Fuck you. out of the rock fm and that's b barns comment right there so yeah i mean sorry but you're the
worst i mean listen the last time the last i'm the worst i am and a gutter rat i know i am uh
the last time we talked to reso you know we talked about like reviving the craft project
and how much like in funding it would cost honestly i feel like
it should be my life's like mission to to just help raise like half a million that i get like
raise you know i honestly believe this idea like i believe in it so much still and i'm pretty sure like you do that like i'm i'm sure deep down you know that like
the crap like the whole thing about craft etc like code like work we talked about this the last time
but like dude if you let's see you won 20 million 30 million 40 million dollars on the powerball or
something tomorrow like would you try to revive like craft or not
craft itself no i made that all open source that's public i ran the test net with it on juno
last year like great i've proven it out it works it was great the i am in talks with the same guys
behind craft from the chandra station team we're looking at a new game this would be like an actual
like proper game studio,
building it up in Unreal Engine, giving that web app support, and then kind of reusing some of the
stuff from craft that we learned, and building it where you're not building on someone else's
technology. Is that a huge undertaking? Yes, but I did agree to be CTO in the event, and there would
already be investor money there. So like, the investor money side of things would be fine.
He's doing all the tokenomics and all of that stuff based off of another game that is quite
successful and so maybe i get into the game industry like business like that uh i'm not
exactly sure yet it's still very early stages but like yeah are you dropping free alpha it's
that free alpha you're dropping there right that is yes only me and one other person know which
is the investor that would be
behind it yeah could smell could anybody else in the room smell the free alpha i was like i could
so i was like the rock i was like can you smell a dude talk to me about what what were you talking
about the beginning shielded assets with the brazilian government i mean yeah i built a demo for the president of the
central bank of brazil requested like how they can transfer private assets over evm networks and so
they sent out a bid to a bunch of they sent out a request to a bunch of people to then get for a bid
and they liked my bid the best based off of the feedback that we got which was taking a erc 20
like a standard erc 2020 on an EDM chain.
Doesn't matter if it was Cosmos,
doesn't matter if it was an EDM.
And then using IBC and Relayers
to migrate that over to Penumbra
to then allow for those shielded assets
to do voting, to do other activities,
sending, whatever the case may be.
Like the private, the banks just wanted
some reliable way to take their tokens on ethereum or
make new tokens and do private transfers with it and that seemed like the easiest way forward so
i built that up in december in roughly a month it's open source on my github at github.com
therese pb cups slash cbb dash cbdc dash demo. And it showcases like,
it's actually like all of the code
that would be needed to run this.
I think I have a video somewhere.
Look, yeah, I have a walkthrough video in there
that like actually takes you through it.
I think it's like 10 or 15 minutes
and like the whole network setup
of what this like architecture would look like.
So that was a real fun like side project
that I did in, yeah, December.
You like fucking, you like the blockchain james bond disney
are you listening are you people in the room listening to what i'm listening to
your man's like that the swiss army knife james bond the crypto he is absolutely out there killing it i mean look i'm gonna come in with some
because the crack is we've got 10 minutes left right these interviews are if we kill the hour
that's perfect for us on spotify on all the rape days i see kids in here i say we've got dark side venius poroboro if you want to jump in and maybe
give race a question great uh b bands red eye i'm gonna i'm gonna drop some bombs on race so like
just wanna like comment on anything that mr swiss army knife mr james bond of crypto
crypto did you want to like ask him anything before i come in with the killers or what
did you wanna like ask him anything before i come in with the killers or what
uh i just want to say that's super cool that you were working on a way uh
to to like proliferate you know private voting technology for uh groups like you know
governments of fairly large uh countries i'm curious if there are any other,
let's say privacy technologies you're interested in working on or like applications of
privacy in this space. Yeah, I'm definitely interested in MEV for, like Informal's done
some work with Quartz and their cycle stuff, but just in general MEV where I can send a transaction into a mempool.
And once that transaction is there, it's actually not unwound until validators have proposed it.
So you do avoid some censorship stuff.
Is it a problem today?
Could it be a problem in the future?
Yes.
I think it's an interesting research topic where I want to make sure that I can put any transaction up and it will not be validated and decoded.
Like it would be decoded by the entire validator set after it's already been written to disk.
Like we've already approved that this is a valid transaction based off of some theory there.
Now that that's in the state, you have to absolutely run that execution or you have to stop the chain entirely. And I think that's unique in terms of like no other technology has been able to do that.
And if you can put that on something like an Ethereum or some other network like that,
that's interesting for privacy. Think of it as like a one block privacy. I put my intent up,
I say what I'm doing, I signed it. I paid with my gas. Then you guys
execute it one block later whenever everyone's able to see it. And I think that opens up interesting
use cases with not being front run and these other problems that we've seen in crypto.
Yeah, I like the terming of that one block privacy. I think there is value to help prevent be extracted there.
Obviously, there's other value that's extracted from
state, like transaction history
and state being public persistently.
But that one block privacy,
there is a decent amount of value that's lost
and extracted in single blocks. so that's a really cool application
oh we had a we can't let any silence creep in right we can't let it right okay uh race we had jake on the other week
at the beginning you mentioned like wavs uh obviously we all know about avs uh the wasm
side of things is extremely interesting i mean are you like are you like partial are you 50 50
do you think wavs is like so cool we should be talking about it right now?
I mean, what's happening in race with WAVs in your opinion?
Yeah, so Jake tried to get me to join Layer to build another product for the past year.
And eventually he was able to resell me on Waze because I've built protocols on Cosmos and I've done Oracles and I've built applications on Cosmos many times over a lot of infrastructure, a couple of apps.
The problem is that there's a ton of tedious work involved and they have a solution that we've been building up and it works for any language.
Well, almost any language,
like all of the major ones are supported that actually matter.
And we have like examples of that.
So I built a GoLang example, I built JavaScript.
We have the Rust example.
And like, that is a huge selling point
that if Cosmos had something like that, like great,
you've just unlocked a ton of developers.
We're seeing with others, like with Dan Lynch
from Cosmology working on like a whole JavaScriptavascript based cosmos chain just for the javascript side well what if you could just
launch these these applications on something like an ethereum and you're not actually launching it
on the chain you're launching it on like a sidecar so it's it's running on the side of of this and
you have some way to verify that, meaning that we essentially turned Ethereum
into kind of what you were talking about earlier, like the Cosmos hub should have shared security.
Well, what if you can just share security of Ethereum to these applications? We have more
security than what we need. That's not the cool point. Like, okay, Eigenlayer lets us do that
coordination. The cool point is building up the applications and stuff. And the way that I was
sold on it was number one, I get to do the And the way that I was sold on it was,
number one, I get to do the DevX work that I love. But number two, they already have protocol ideas
for apps that they want to build. And it's like, wait, we're not only building the infrastructure,
but we're also building the apps. Yes. And I was like, okay, I'm sold on that. So I've got to work
with multiple different examples. We're working on things like prediction markets and these other sorts of work.
And it's like, how can we do it more efficiently?
And then work on like selling that to others and make it solvable for them to simplify
their tech stack down to literally like a couple hundred lines of code.
What previously took, I don't know, 10,000 plus on like a Cosmos chain.
And then you do that with the efficiencies of wasm.
It's a game changer in terms of,
of oracles and in terms of like what you can actually build on chain,
because you're not building on the chain,
you're building alongside the chain,
but you're depending on the chain for certain aspects.
Like it's just kind of magical.
I'll tell you what,
son,
you're all fucking magical.
Cause I can remember being in hua hua in in the south of thailand at song kran and having this interview with you and a few others
right when the uh juno chain thing had happened to halt uh and i'm telling you now i mean
uh and i'm telling you now i mean reese a bit b-bands red eye like reese is one of the best
interviewees you can have on this show is that right or not like he's just classic all day isn't
he like bang he's got bang for your book like if you're not getting bang for your book right now
on a free space like bro you're retarded you daft little cunts i mean austin's got his hand up we
will i have got a question for race at the end uh which is very important because we do keep these
interviews tight we do want the replays we do want the numbers uh austin you've got the mic for uh
ratio yo can you guys hear me yeah you're guc Gucci, bro. Go ahead. Awesome. What's up?
Happy to hear you guys talking about all this stuff, Rhys.
Waves is super excited.
I started last night, my first implementation,
and kind of just like seeing the reality of it all.
It's definitely exciting.
I definitely think that, you know,
the communication hasn't really reflected
that there is like these like side cars to the sidecar
you have to build which creates a bit of complexity like for example integrating with like
cosmos or cosmos change you would have to like build cosmos contracts normally or like that are
tuned to them is what i'm seeing like but But I definitely wanted to pick your brain some more. Maybe we
could do it off chain in a text thread about implementing key signatures from the operators
themselves to act as an admin entity. That's just a selfish ask if we could...
Yes, we do have something like that. Yes. Send it to me offline. Send me your thoughts on Waves.
I'll go through that. I handle all the dev excel as you had mentioned there though yes the communication
is is bad the way i i describe it to developers differently depending on where their background is
like hey i need to understand your background so i can describe it to you because if i say to in
this room uh waves is a wasm based runtime for off-chain services it's like what the hell does
that mean it's like no one really knows what that means.
It's like, yeah, we're running these sidecar things.
So you have to formulate it to what people are doing.
So like from a technical side,
if you're very techie, this is great.
From the new person coming in,
and that's part of my job is making sure
to explain that to partners properly on the product team.
So they actually know what we're doing
and tailoring that to them
because a lot of tech just
kind of misses out on that. Tower of Babel, totally. That's it. Thank you. Right. So, okay.
As we wind down and I have been kind of like, oh, we're in, oh, princess Kit is here.
Like, she got a mic an hour ago.
So, like, when Kit, like, waits an hour to accept a mic, we're like, okay, your woman's in the room.
Good morning, Kit.
Hello, darling.
How are you?
Please don't shoot me in the face. Are you doing okay darling?
Oh my gosh, you're not a real raccoon. Why would I shoot you?
I know the last time I was talking to you though, you shot a raccoon. I was like, I was indifferent about me feelings.
That's all I'm saying darling. But yeah, have you got some shit for like race come on throw some snowballs bar darling
No, I don't have shit for is I actually enjoy sitting and listening to Reese and what he's been working on and I only grabbed the mic
I am sorry that I know you want to close down the space now
No, no, no darling a for you should have been Alibaba and the 40 thieves are gonna roll out for you doll and what you're talking about
You've got the mic.
You know this, darling.
Open sesame.
says me. Open says
me. Is that sesame?
I want seeds.
Plant those seeds in everybody's
heads today. Now, I enjoy
listening to Rhys and what he's been working on.
You know,
his ambition is what I love the most. But, you know, he's setting the goals and he's kind of tossing between, you know, a PhD or so forth. It's like, yeah, definitely go for a PhD. Why?
Because unfortunately, to be taken seriously, especially working in a degenerate space with cryptography and trying to be taken
serious with real world institutions and enterprise architecture in general, you have to have
something under your belt. So definitely go for that PhD if you're capable of it. As far as the
way that you communicate between, you know, the different
individuals who your audience is, I love that because that's something that I lack to, you know,
to adapt to. So I love just sitting in, just listening to how you, you know, spark their
interest with little keywords here and there. But just overall, I grabbed the mic
because I wanted to hear more about
what your take was on layer,
but of course you're using different verbatims
just to kind of skim over it
for what social media people or normies
would be able to absorb at this point in time.
So I'm not going to kind of take up the time in here.
Oh, darling, you're a, I mean, listen,
who doesn't love Kit?
I mean, I'm not being funny.
I'm not a fanboy.
I mean, Kit, I would.
Like, if I met you in real life,
I'd be all over you like a tramp on chips.
I mean, I'm not going to deny that fact.
Like, you're, you know, you're decent, darling. i mean i'm not gonna deny that fact like you're you know
you're decent darling i mean and i'm i'm getting on in in my life uh but yeah she is a darling
and she reese right okay we're gonna bring the hammer down and it's gonna be a hammer
uh apparently b-bands what you're dm me for about shane's coming on a space. I yeah, what you doing? I uh, I mean
What
What's going on what I shins coming on a space but only when he said they've done this other
What you doing darling do we ask race
Rubble
This has nothing to do with what's happening right now
I don't even know why we're bringing it up
But if you want to bring it up
No no no no
Shane from Stargaze said he would come on the show
Not this week but next week
And I was just putting it in our private
General chat
So that's the hammer
That's the hammer
That's right okay
Reese
That's the hammer
I know Reese we're gonna put you on the spot here
bro fucking hell race this has been going on for weeks we've had like opinions from everyone
everybody you know opinions are like assholes everyone's got one uh stargaze the hub uh its relationship with maybe the fact that the app chain thesis
might be dead i mean you know where i'm coming from with this question race right i'm taking
a run up yeah i might be like you know i'm looking at a failed goal whatever but you know where i'm coming from right race stargaze the hub uh reality fallacy
pitfalls uh we we think it's a messy messy situation you know what could have prevented
it better tokenomics i mean race you've got the mic now freestyle bro because this is like the
end of the show i've been waiting for you for this question, right?
Yeah, so I actually knew about this a while ago.
Like, I think late last year,
whenever I started hearing about,
it was either late last year or like very early this year,
in January, of the backroom discussions
about Stargaze joining the hub.
We're seeing the same problems as we've seen in other networks,
as we mentioned at the beginning of the show,
proof of stake just doesn't work.
And it especially doesn't work with such large validator sets.
I know many people are like, you know, they're preaching decentralization.
It doesn't work.
The economics just don't work behind it.
We saw that with Juno.
We've seen that now with like Stargaze, like these other networks.
So does it make sense for them to merge into the hub? Yes. It's definitely messy, both from a buyout perspective,
because buying out a market cap, you know, a value is not really a market cap of value in crypto,
because there's probably what, like maybe $10 million in liquidity or like something
incredibly low for this insanely high valued market cap because of just how the economics of this work
compared to like normal shares and stuff.
So like that will be interesting.
From a technical perspective,
Stargaze runs a lot of custom stuff
in their Cosmos module.
So is the hub going to also take on that?
Because that's going to now block the hub
from doing other sorts of things.
Now, whether the hub from doing other sorts of things now whether the
hub wants to do other things but if they're going to absolutely merge into the hub i know the hub's
discussion about going permissionless and changing that cool does that solve any problem for stargaze
it removes a validator set so could you solve it also by just reducing the validator set size and
moving to,
you almost can't do proof of authority because then you still run into the
same issue of current token holders are going to dump,
but like you've already shot yourself in the foot.
I don't know what the next step would be from that.
So a buyout is definitely the,
I would say the best opportunity.
And again,
I think that a lot of it is probably for the alignment with Adam rather
than something else. And so it's like, hey, we get rid of the stars token. We now have an app on
Cosmos. Does it make sense for the size of Cosmos relative to what market cap of Stargaze would be?
I don't know, but it's more than what Cosmos has now in terms of the hub. But I don't know how
actual fees you could gather from that. So it's interesting from a technical perspective. I don't know
if it makes sense from an economic perspective and a technical like implementation maintenance
ongoing thing.
So Reese let's, I mean, we've been going for a while, an hour and five minutes. We try to keep these within the hour.
Your final, I mean, we know your journey.
We know the pivots, the changes.
Let's say that, like, you know, like us, you know, you're not a dev.
You're just like a passive, like, investor, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
And, you know, you think that cosmos has been like the
greatest tech ever but like what would be your actual would your opinion just be kind of like
guys you know like look elsewhere or no no this tech will become something like amazing in the
future like your last comments on like the cosmos stack so you know you know
what i mean by the stack like the sdk stack i'm talking about yeah what would be your kind of
like final part and comments in regards to obviously we've seen like the split with tender
mint etc etc you know we know what your man's up do right right? Do you think Cosmos is dead, Rhys,
as a final part in common?
Yes.
The ICF, the old ICF,
definitely flundered with this new migration
to the Skip team.
Skip team's great.
They've run, I think, maybe one...
They ran Skip go.
They have now taken on the entire SDK stack of legacy code
that was previously maintained by five teams.
Whether you agree or not that, you know,
it should have been five teams taking care of it,
that's besides the point.
That was part of their selling to the new ICF was,
hey, we're going to take all this over.
The problem is they've not been able to hire.
The SDK has completely like slowed down.
And like, look, if you think the stack was already good before,
then that's fine because it's saving you money
in terms of atom cell pressure and other things.
But the developers are leaving.
The stack is slowing down
because they don't have enough people to run it.
Like you can't take a team of 20 something
that works on one code base,
maybe one and a half code bases that are pretty critical.
And now you're maintaining the SDK, interchain test, both relayers.
I think they actually cut down one of the relayers.
The Comet BFT, IBC Go, IBC Eureka, which was already being worked on before.
Like, that's a ton of stuff to take on for a single team of 20 people that, sure, they had context of this stuff before, but the ramp up and stuff.
I gave it six months before it started hitting cracks when I knew about this in, in, in December.
And the cracks have started to show because not only like I've been reached out to by the team
of like, Hey, we need someone to maintain this. I know that the cosmology has also been reached
out to for the, the Cosm JS stuff. So like the ICF that was sold as we're bringing everything in house is already
getting back to doing contractor work outside like the old ICF. So I'm pretty disappointed in the way
that the ecosystem is going. And again, that's why I've like kind of pivoted over to the EVM side.
And I told myself a couple of weeks ago with some things that happened, like I am not contributing
to the Cosmos stack, even the areas that I'm working on,
like it's staying in my own area
because I don't want to deal with it.
It's not getting in in a timely manner.
It's like, I literally wrote the code for you.
This would pass an audit.
Why are you not merging it in?
It's been pending for months now.
And it's just like, I'm not interested
in that sort of work.
So that's like the current state
of where the Cosmos stack is.
So like, will it continue to run on the current versions?
Yeah.
And it'll be fine.
And people will build up things.
But in terms of like,
if you have a blocker or you have something that,
that is an issue,
the likelihood of that getting in for your protocol,
you have to do it yourself.
Now you can't depend on the upstream team to handle that in a timely
manner.
I mean,
it was not the timeliest manner before,
but it would at least get done.
Now I can't have any confidence saying that it would get done.
Wow.
I just need to come in and say, like, listen, race, we started the show by trying to emulate how long we've known you for, where the journey started, blah, blah, blah.
We actually talked about it at the beginning this is everything I
expected and a million percent more for anyone that missed the beginning of the show uh it'll
be on Spotify like very early like by tomorrow I highly suggest you go and look because there's
something special about you know a conversation when ragfm like comes together
with people that already know like with what's happening but you know we're not that clued up
but the people we talk to are and it's like i mean b-bands red eye these have been beautiful
course by the way hasn't this been glorious is it me or am i like i'm i i'm a rimming them all
what uh you know i really i didn't think about what risa was saying about the other
applications that they had built and if that's coming over and how much extra work that's going
to be i just like i just like the way he puts everything in perspective um very interesting great talk i always enjoy listening
to his level his level of clarity it's like like you would have to be like a sub 80 iq to not
understand his level of like clarity about what like we're talking about like you'd have to be a
fucking retard wouldn't you uh red eye i'm gonna i'm gonna like bring it bring it down to a boil so
under a simmer anything you want to say red eye no i think uh the thing i appreciated most out of
this conversation is um your your criticality of you know the previous ecosystems that you worked
in like i think for people to really succeed,
they can't surround themselves with yes men.
And I greatly appreciate you being openly critical
of the systems that, you know,
a bunch of people are still building on in the cosmos.
So this is all good information for us to take forward.
And, you know, if we want to see success where we're currently building, you know, we're going to have to take some of
these things into account. So I always appreciate people willing to kind of put their neck out
there and say what they really think. And yeah, I think RACFM is one of the best places for people
to share those types of opinions and stories. So always glad to have you on here.
Oh, mate, I'm not as nice as him. Like I can have a wank right now over wavs. I mean,
I could literally crack one off. No problem over wavs. Right. But race is like, I knew
I pretty much fucking knew how this conversation was going to go. I was like DM and B bands
and them in the group chat. And I'm like, we've got race on like, like, cause obviously i hit you up when you're on your holidays and i'm like racist is gonna book and i knew you
would and it's oh dude you've made personally just for me you've made my dear like
literally if you can go about your day today and think at least i made like robo fucking happy i mean that's a fucking
right achievement right there that's a five star achievement isn't it but rick's mate and we're
going to wind it down now you have been glorious thank you brother thank you mate right i appreciate
it yeah thanks for having me on oh mate you're welcome back anytime anything you literally you've got a free pass on raka fn
man that's like what it comes down to is like you've got a free pass bro like you know
you know and it's i think for everybody that might have joined late i see jj's joined late i
say scott joined late maybe i say foxy was in and out you have to go back and really listen to this entire replay and
understand like exactly like how we extracted maximum information from race but he's like the
most giving party that like you could wish for in a space and uh reissman you you know that
raka fem will never ever turn this back on you you you know
this we've been through the the wars brother right you know this race right yeah 100 percent
four years on that note oh on that note i just want to say it people god night and god bless
cause listen ragfm you know we live in a different world we might not be conventional we might not be like
the norms and you know we might be a bit like we do we are what we are we're not going to pretend
to be this or this however we can get someone on with the intellect of like race and even though
we might not match up to that intellect we kind of know you're not how to prompt intelligent people
for intelligent answers
and that's what you've had today like you've literally had like proper intelligent answers
on a different level and on that note good night and god bless wherever you're on the world people
take care all right look after you your you and your own all right that's what we care about more
than anything else is that you and your backyard are safe and you know everybody's happy right and you know just
like try to be a bit more compassionate just try to be a bit more compassionate with everything
else that's going on in the world all right that's all i want to say good night and god bless thank
you very much race bye bye everyone
