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RAC FM🦝unbolting Bolt Liquidity in Cosmos | Sponsored by Alphagrowth
Recorded: Aug. 6, 2025 Duration: 1:05:39Space Recording
Short Summary
In a recent discussion, the team behind Bolt unveiled their innovative liquidity network designed to tackle slippage issues in DeFi. By integrating with existing platforms and focusing on user-centric pricing, they aim to enhance user retention in decentralized ecosystems while exploring partnerships within the Cosmos network.
Full Transcription
Okay. okay okay okay gm farm gm uh i'm hoping everybody can hear me nice and clear i'm actually uh just
trying this out with the microphone on the tablet uh max i'm not clear or is there any problems i'm not okay no you are loud and clear
oh lovely man lovely uh let's just get the room in uh max because like i'm actually pumped for
this you know bro i'll i'll see i know there'll be people on the replays and stuff right ice john
okay uh there'll be people on the replays who like listen to this so we'll just get a little
intro uh red eyes got a meeting at exactly 11 30. he reckons it's only going to be a couple of
minutes so red eyes coming in uh i believe there's some history there uh max will uh we'll talk about
that when he comes in right we'll leave that but I'm actually kind of
pumped and please retweet out the room guys yeah I'm actually kind of pumped for this and I'll tell
you why I would say around 90 to 95 percent of uh projects uh we reach out to so we get a very small
number of these like interview kind of like you know
spaces podcasts because we archive them yeah we actually have like very few where people come to
us and say like can we come on the show so when that happens it's always like a little bit of a
extra buzz it's always of like a little bit of extra interest you know what i mean and like i
say guys i'm only spitballing while we're just waiting for the room to fill up uh finn should be coming in uh let me just quickly
remind finn that he's supposed to be here he's uh doing futures trading at the minute well he's
on a paper count he's already blew i think uh two or three cash accounts but he's on a paper
account at the minute uh we'll get them in b B-Bans is a little bit busy, but John
will not worry about the room. We'll get
this going. Have we got John with us, have we?
Is that what it's done?
Yeah, sorry. I was putting a tweet
out. Yeah, man, nice to be here with you.
No worries, man. No worries.
Is it GM for you? Is it
GA? Is it GE?
It's about to be GA, but yeah, it's still technically GM.
We're just before noon.
I'm in Eastern time.
Are you stateside, yeah?
Yeah.
How about you, Max?
Are you stateside as well?
It is still morning for me.
I'm in Central time, so it's only about 1030.
Oh, man's on the mountain, is he?
Man's on the mountain.
No, I'm more of than midwest so like chicago oh mate i love i love america i love everything you stand for even though i'm a
brit and i know you threw our tea in the sea but uh i'll not argue about that i love everything
america stands for and i love this uh this big freedom narrative and freedom drive that we've got now
i'll tell you what guys it's been a slow burner you know we went to have a warm-up earlier and
there was like i was like is it like it's just everybody on the planet busy today so very quickly
i'll do the introduction and there's something i want to ask you guys so for the uh podcast you
know on spotify etc finn will cut everything up to here and it'll be good
morning ruck fm and it is a good morning people isn't it uh we are buzzing to have
both liquidity on and we're joined by max and we've also got ox john it is wed, the 6th of August, 2025. And this is your favourite show, Rack FM, 69.420.
Coming in your ears five days a week.
We've got an interesting bit of conversation.
But to kick this off, this is something I've been toying with for days, right?
I feel like I know you guys, but actually I don't, right?
And I was like, Rob rob what should be about the project
but you know you've only got like an hour because we try to keep these you know spaces like the
interviewed ones to like a good hour you know hour and 10 whatever and i was like there's so much to
talk about and i just kept going back to the point of like i want to know who the guys are so we'll
go to max first then we'll go to john and it then we'll go to John. And it's literally, guys, very quick, you know, minute, minute and a half, two minutes.
Just give us a quick, me personally, update of how you got into crypto, like taking you up to where you created this project.
Is that all right, Max?
Yeah, that's perfectly fine.
I would say my journey into full-time crypto was a bit unusual. I actually went to school for finance and accounting, so graduated with a degree in that and then actually worked in the accounting field for about seven years.
I would say as early as like 2010 or 11, I kind of learned about Bitcoin.
Unfortunately, I didn't really understand it fully enough to have purchased it, but I was aware of it and was trying to understand the purpose and how it functioned.
And then I'd say around like 2017, when Ethereum smart contracts and Cosmos Hub started to come around i got uh even more interested
in the idea of crypto and blockchains in general mainly because i actually understood the purpose
of smart contracts and i i could act i felt it had legitimate use cases um that could make
processes and things i did in accounting way more transparent and and. So, you know, as I was working like my regular
nine to five, I was just constantly contributing to the space and whatever I could, mainly just
participating in discussions on Twitter, things like that, which is actually how I met Red.
So, you know, just by being involved in the community and learning as much as I could, I eventually was able to land a full time role with PhyLabs.
So, you know, just by being involved in the community and learning as much as I could,
So I started working with them in 2021 and I've been working with them ever since.
So it's been a kind of an unusual journey, you know, going from a secure finance job um over to the wild west of crypto but
personally i i'm glad i did is one of the best decisions i've i've ever made
oh man's got minerals man's got minerals good morning finn how you doing brother you okay
we're just doing some introductions
oh yeah i'm just here for moral support ah You're on that Montana internet, aren't you?
I know exactly what your game is and you're on your future.
I got to ration my bits between my futures chart and this.
You're allocating bandwidth, though, so you appreciate it.
Great in row like Max.
Man's got minerals.
John, what about your crack, brother?
Yeah, I appreciate it so a little unlike max i came
from the wild west to even more of the wild west so free crypto um i was in the entertainment
industry in the states i was a professional musician um did lots of touring management
booking you know you name it.
I did it.
Used to do 160 shows a year, traveling the United States, playing major festivals, you know, radio appearances, even some TV appearances.
Come, you know, the era of COVID, our industry shut down, as did many.
But I also had suffered a series of injuries that slowed my
professional career down. And during the COVID is when I discovered myself, crypto, and just
absolutely fell in love with it, dove in headfirst into the tech and the,
just the kind of the ideological framework and everything around it. And so I decided
because of the injuries and the unknowns around covet i decided to just pivot into researching about it
and uh quickly you know i wanted to i was like how do i get involved in this in any capacity
basically and so um really i just left leveraging my marketing and branding and community skills that I had formed in the music industry.
I quickly pivoted that over to DeFi and found my way to Phi Labs late last year.
So not even a year yet have I been with Phi Labs.
And Bolt spun up shortly after that.
Oh, dude, that's a perfect intro.
Perfect intro because of what's coming up but
i love i'll tell you what i do love about the two of you already is that kind of like philosophical
ethos that crypto has you know everybody likes making money right and you know but but there
is this thing where you know that there is a higher kind of like purpose
to how we interact like socially, culturally, economically, you know, politically.
And crypto has a big part of the player.
So I do already, I'm like hooked.
You know what I mean, guys?
We make shows that we want to have.
If other people want to listen, like great.
But like we are primarily concerned with like, okay,
what are the interviews that we want to do what are we interested in so that will bring us right up to the first question
first point finn you haven't got anything i know red eyes running a bit late he's in a meeting but
have you got anything finn before we kick off no he's deep nice he's only here for moral support
he said right guys let's kick off.
Who's this for?
I don't know who this might be for.
Either of you, you pick.
Origin and mission, if we're going to start somewhere.
Essentially, you guys launched in February, I think, was it, right?
And essentially, I believe, the first zero slippage liquidity network, right?
So I probably kind of know the answer.
I just need to hear it from you.
What inspired the creation of Bolt from day one, from day dot, right?
And how does it aim to solve the pain points of fragmented liquidity in DeFi?
So whoever wants to answer that one, essentially,
what inspired the creation?
And how are you going to solve the pain points of fragmented liquidity?
Yeah, I can take that one.
And I would say, so we probably started working on the project
in January, February.
We actually just went live probably a couple of weeks ago
with the actual product, with our first outpost on Archway.
But the idea behind Bolton to answer your kind of follow up question was there is major issues that we I think we all face in crypto, especially in DeFi with slippage.
Right. So do you have this fragmented liquidity problem, not only across different chains, but even within a single ecosystem, just within pools.
When you look at a standard AMM-style DEX, you're going to have a USD ETH pool, an Atom ETH pool, whatever.
It's going to be broken up into a bunch of different liquidity pools.
So not only are you fragmented across the chains,
you're actually fragmented within the applications themselves.
And so when you're trying to do trades or especially large swaps on an AMM model,
unless there's significant liquidity, you're going to run into slippage, right?
So the idea of slippage is really just you're getting less
for what you're putting in because of the pool balance
and that pool balance is determining the price.
So we saw this as an issue
and I think a lot of people know that this is an issue in DeFi.
So that's really what kind of inspired the idea of Bolt
was how do we solve this?
Like how do we make DEXs and really swapping more efficient for the user so they can get more for what they're paying for?
And, yeah, that's really the core behind why we decide to build Bulb.
So the mechanism that you've got working and sort of behind this is because we all love these acronyms, right?
POP, is that right? Pro pricing efficiency yeah that's right it's yeah i mean it's i wish uh oh he's babe we'll see if
she wants the course uh i know she's very busy but she's you know part of the family uh red eye
would have actually like loved this right uh because so you've got this pop proof of pricing
efficiency where you're kind of like mirroring uh real world sort of market prices but on chain
and you can you can achieve zero slippage in low liquidity conditions i mean obviously this like if we've
got listeners coming in you know i'm not saying think of them as retards but like thinking them
as like 18 year old kids who've like been in crypto like three months or something right
like can you explain sort of uh the mechanism uh why it's such a game changer uh especially like for you know sigma traders and
liquidity providers etc but yeah if you can just talk to us about like what's working in the back
end a little bit i think we'd like that yeah no i'm happy to so like you mentioned proof of price
efficiency is really just the mechanism which is a combination of using oracle pricing from
centralized exchanges and single-sided pools on the actual networks or ecosystems that we're
deployed in. And the idea of the price oracles from the exchanges is because typically centralized
exchanges have the most efficient pricing. So what we're trying to do is replicate that on-chain.
And it becomes a much more efficient use of liquidity
because with traditional AMM or automated market maker mechanisms,
the price of the token you're swapping is determined by the pool depth and the pool balance.
So if you have USDC
and Atom and you have 500k on each side, you have a million. But if you try to do a large trade,
let's say 100k, you're going to unbalance that pool. So therefore, you'll take on slippage
because the pool needs to account for the fact that it's going to be unbalanced. So what we
are trying to do is create something a bit different. So we have single-sided pools, so there's just one asset. And when you swap,
it executes it at whatever the Oracle price produces. So the pool depth itself and the
balance, if you will, are not determining the price of the token you're swapping into.
So this makes it a lot more efficient. Like I mentioned,
if you were to do a $100,000 trade, you would need a couple million in liquidity in a standard
A&M to avoid notable slippage. But with Bolt, if you have 100K of that asset in the pool,
you can actually do a 100K trade without slippage because it's executing at a posted price.
And it's essentially just immediately executed on that pool and providing you with that that asset so there is no unbalancing of pools in
the in the sense that amms do it therefore you get whatever price you were you're given
at whatever amount you want to swap into. So that eliminates the slippage.
Do you think this is,
because we've seen this many sort of evolutions in crypto,
do you think that this is the future?
I mean, I'm just going off what you've just said there,
which is, I found it fascinating when I looked, right?
Is this the future?
When you mentioned traditional AMMs, et cetera,
that is this the future?
I believe so. Because AMMs, is this the future? I believe so.
Because AMMs were, in my opinion, initially built for convenience.
So it makes it very easy for anyone to permissionlessly trade different asset pairs. And it doesn't require a lot of work to be done by a third party.
The pools are essentially being balanced by LPs
and the price is being determined by that balance in depth. But as we've gotten, I guess,
more intricate with the DeFi space, I think people now would rather have a bit more complex
models that provide better efficiency. And the idea of Bolt is unique, but it's not
unheard of in the space.
There's already protocols who do similar type functions. So if you think about like CowSwap, if you're familiar on Ethereum, they use a similar mechanism.
However, they're using intent-based RFQs.
And I know I'm throwing a lot of words out there for you, but essentially an RFQs request for quote,
And I know I'm throwing a lot of words out there for you, but essentially an RFQ's request for quote, where they post a price from, you know, whether it's a exchange or a DEX, and they fill your order at that price.
But the problem that they have, in my opinion, is that they, one, they break composability of the smart contracts.
And there's not as much verifiability because they have off-chain solvers who are doing a lot
of this process. So as a user, it becomes risky because you can't verify that you're actually
getting the best price. You're also, I guess, breaking the composability of smart contracts,
which from a blockchain and DeFi ethos perspective is something you never want to do.
You want it to be easy to integrate and for apps and others to be able to use it permissionlessly.
So that's why Bolt has made sure to do everything on-chain, where it's fully verifiable,
maintains composability and animosity of trades.
So it's kind of taking a concept that's been around, which are RFQs,
and taking it one step further to bring it all on chain,
to really preserve the decentralized part of DeFi and to really adhere to
like the ethos of crypto.
Wow. I'll tell you what guys, you're interviewed so well. And I, John,
I mean,
I don't know if you want to add on anything or if you're waiting for,
you know, your play or what? Yeah, happy to. So, I mean, I don't know if you want to add on anything or if you're waiting for, you know, your play or what.
Yeah, happy to.
So, you know, some kind of comparisons that we like to discuss.
To give you an example, I mean, we've all sort of accepted that slippage exists when we're in DeFi.
When we're in DeFi, that's kind of just like a hidden tax in DeFi.
That's kind of just like a hidden tax in DeFi.
But it's absurd that it exists if we really think about it.
You know, so what we say internally is like you wouldn't in real life go to get your beard trimmed and settle for getting, you know, paying 100% for a beard trim and having 96% of your beard trimmed.
You wouldn't go buy a pizza and then have your
pizza show up with two bites taken out of it. You wouldn't order a beer and then allow the
bartender just to take a giant sip out of it. You expect to get 100% of what you pay for
in the real world. Yet in DeFi, we don't almost ever because there's always some percentage
unknown. So you're not ever really getting 100% of what you pay for. You're like, I want $100 of this token.
Well, there might be 2% slippage, 1% slippage.
It might be 7% slippage.
So you end up not getting 100% of what you pay for.
And we think that's absurd.
And what ends up happening is because users aren't getting, because pricing isn't efficient
on chain, they end up actually leaving decentralized
ecosystems and going to centralized exchanges to get good pricing. But that hurts the users
because they no longer own their assets on the centralized exchange. That hurts the ecosystems
because people are leaving their ecosystem. That hurts the dApps because they're losing trading
volume. So by making pricing efficient on chain,
we kind of help the entire decentralized ecosystem.
You know, users can get good pricing
while maintaining control of their assets.
Ecosystems have user retention, people aren't running away.
DAPs are seeing increased trading volume.
So, you know, it helps everyone.
So we think that centralized exchanges should basically just be a vector getting people on chain.
You go from TradFi to a centralized exchange, and from there you go into DeFi, and then hopefully you just stick around.
But terrible pricing, slippage, all of that pushes everyone away. So by solving that on-chain pricing really allows people to kind of hang in these
ecosystems, these ecosystems to flourish. And, you know, it's really not a small amount. So Bolt,
you know, really shines at scale. You know, if you're trying to do an $8 swap, Bolt might not be
the best route, you know, and again, Bolt is is an infrastructure product we don't have a front end we don't have a token we are
designed just to kind of supercharge the existing applications in whatever
blockchain we are deployed so I'll come in there John and John I don't want to
run it because you did mention the talk and then that's one of the questions and
I'm like so listen guys I'm not shitting yous and it's typical rack fm you've actually
answered like questions 7 to 11 already like i've got a full google word that we'd share literally
you guys are front-running rack fm it's crazy i wish baby and josiah should be laughing because
like she can see the show notes and she'll be like robo calm them down a little bit you know i love the scale thing
now we'll talk about because you remind me of some other projects in the the space i'm not
going to mention their names but like sort of how would i say would i say about end infrastructure
i mean what when you mentioned what you mentioned i was like ah right okay we need to stop it
because the next thing is essentially the plug-in aspect i mean i'll take a run up of this one
uh we talked to uh magma uh at cosmos obviously on friday you know and this this whole thing right
about sas uh software as a service so thanks for the definition
on the RFQs Max that was really appreciated for people in the audience
right but we've been talking about you know software as a service for a long
time right and you guys have got this kind of like plug-in uh sort of plug and play right for daps and i think this is just such a
good clear by the way and when you mentioned about no talking and everything i was just so triggered
so i didn't want to interrupt john you were on a roll and i was loving it but like we've got to keep
we've got to get this interview correct you know your integration with daps i mean you remind me a lot of some of the really cool stuff
uh going on in cosmos that a lot of people don't know about right that we've who we've talked to
so on the subject of integration with your daps or with daps right you're designed to essentially
just plug into existing daps right and people have been actually i've spoken to have been actually
talking about this about how you're going to be able to boost things like volume and retention
for certain platforms how seamless will the integration process be for developers
and let's say that i'm a dev right let's say i'm one of these guys right but like
i'm one of your customers yeah what would be like your pitch to get me to adapt bold
so from an integration standpoint it should be fairly easy um you're essentially just
utilizing like an api to call our contracts and execute through them.
So it shouldn't be a very heavy lift for a, let's say, an aggregator to add an additional
liquidity source being Bolt.
So that's one piece of it.
And it was built with that in mind.
We knew that if we were going to be a backend or a service type product, we need to make
the integration very simple so that teams have
incentive to do it and commit resources to it. Because once it becomes too complicated or
too heavy of a lift, it's hard for them to justify making that decision. And so with that said,
I guess part of our pitch is the integration is very simple. But even beyond that, I think the part of the pitch that makes it so valuable is that it's improving the user experience because you're providing better pricing.
If you're an aggregator, you're really just competing on price.
You're going to route the trade through whatever source is providing you the best execution price.
whatever source is providing you the best execution price. And a user is going to come
to an aggregator because they want the best execution price and they don't care where it's
coming from. So what we're doing is essentially offering them an additional liquidity source where
if we have the best price, then route it through our pools. But if we don't have the best price,
then route it through whatever liquidity source or route that you normally would.
So there's not a lot of downside for applications who do integrate Bolt because it's just adding another place for them to check pricing and see if they can get the user more value for their swap.
So that's kind of how we're pitching it is, you know, there's not a lot of downside for the teams. It's just giving you more options and more potential efficiency on a product where you're essentially competing for efficiency.
Oh, you'll not believe you'll not believe what a fan of options rubble is.
I am the max. Like I teach like business English out here in Thailand, right?
Like high level corporate. And one of the things I drill down to people is man it's like for us guys you know options we
always need options on the table right uh i was gonna ask about your performance data
and how you're gonna like benchmark your success i'll tell you what i might leave that for now
uh your roadmap let's let's have a quick look at your roadmap right i love
sneaking around projects mind but the minute you guys come to me i was like i'm having to
sniff around these guys dynamic debt provisioning it's in the roadmap right uh dynamic debt
provisioning for it from a quick understanding it's to uh like is it is it gonna empower like regular users to actors market makers
or i i'm a bit dumb so first of all like can you just explain like dynamic debt provision
and like i'm a player which i am and uh when are you expecting to roll that out
rule that out so that is actually something um that we have thought about when we were designing
the product it's really just the idea of essentially allowing liquidity to borrow
uh debt to or basically take on debt to provide larger trades and then pay it back once the trade
is completed um this is something that's
probably pretty far down the roadmap. I wouldn't say it's something that we would plan to do in
even the next three to six months, because the focus will just be getting the core product out
and deployed on multiple chains. So right now we're in the cosmos, but we also have a lot of
partnerships and we'll be planning to deploy on SUI, as well as many of the L2s on the EVM side.
So there's just a lot of work to be done to get those outposts out.
So this would definitely be something down the line, and it's actually something we haven't even fully designed within the product.
the product. So it's an idea that we'd really like to pursue. But first, we have to vet it a
bit more and make sure that it doesn't incur significant risk to the LPs, the users, or
anything like that. But yeah, I wouldn't focus too much on that for now, just because it's more of
like a down the road, if we can do it, we'd love to do something like this.
And you can think of it similar to like a flash loan, where if someone wants to do an
extremely large trade and the liquidity isn't present, they could take on a quick loan,
make the trade and then pay it back.
Well, if I could jump in on the roadmap as well.
I don't know if you want to follow up with Max on that, but I'm happy to speak to the roadmap as well um i don't know if you want to follow up with max on
that but i'm happy to speak to the roadmap as well no dude please talk about the roadmap because
that's a perfect leading to the next question i actually reordered the questions today because
it's rack fm and we do what we do and we do it quite well and i've got to like that was a lead
in for what's coming next so dude talk about the roadmap go on right so like, that was a lead in for what's coming next. So dude, talk about the roadmap. Go on.
Right.
So like Max was pointing out, Bolt, we have outposts that we deploy on blockchains.
We've just deployed the first one in the Cosmos.
We're scaling.
We're working it out.
We're adding more assets, adding more liquidity.
And the goal there for the Cosmos is Bolt wants to integrate.
Again, we don't have a front end.
We're not here to fight for users.
We're here just to supercharge the existing applications that users are already prefer.
So for the Cosmos, you know, we are talking to the dApps and aggregators in the Cosmos looking to integrate there while simultaneously looking forward and building the outpost for, like Mac said, SUI.
You know, so we should be on testnet in the coming weeks or month in SUI and deploying there.
We're already scaffolding the deployments for EVM layer twos, looking at Solana, Avalanche, everywhere else so you know the idea is to grow each outpost and our partnerships
and integrations within each blockchain while simultaneously preparing for the next deployment
in the next blockchain
sorry bro the mute the mute was getting stuck i was gonna say like max right okay i've got to
come in with this the no token model right we've seen it people have changed position
like why did you choose the model right how does it impact any sustainability and growth
like that we talk about runway we're not gonna you guys. You know where we're coming from.
Talk to us about your numbers.
Well, that's the great part, right?
Without having a token, you don't really have stakeholders.
So the runway is not super relevant to the user.
So long as we're supporting the product, you get the benefits from it.
And the reason we decided to go with a no- no token model is, at least for the time being,
is because there's no inherent utility for it at this point, right? We're operating as a more of a backend service where a token could be created, but it really wouldn't be anything more than
governance. And I think over time, we've realized that strictly governance type tokens just aren't that valuable. Unless you
have some sort of governance over something like Uniswap's fees or Aave's fees or something like
that, it just doesn't add a lot of value to the product. And it does create a lot of headaches
and different things you have to worry about from a compliance and legal side as well.
So we wanted to first start out just by launching the product, making sure it works, and then
providing that service to different DeFi platforms and users by getting more efficient pricing and
liquidity for them. Down the road, if there becomes a need for a token or we find a strong use case for one, we could consider actually doing so.
But for the time being, we'll basically just deploy the product and where we're able to
extend our runway is through fees. So we'll take a small fee on the trades, but that fee will still
be much smaller than the typical amount of slippage you take on from other exchanges.
And most of these exchanges have front end fees as well that are additional or I guess incremental to the actual slippage you're taking on.
So that's how we'll stay afloat and basically be able to pay for operational costs is through these fees that we're taking by getting users
more bang for their buck. We also have a few different teams working on Bolt who are funded
and have runway to continue to build this out for the near future until we can really expand
the use around Bolt and start to generate significant fees so so this is per i'll
tell you what this is one of our best interviews this year seriously this is so good baby bands
is down there listening in thinking damn i'm busy but i wish i was here and red eyes missing this
shout out red eye for being a legend but right fm when he comes and listens to the replay
so you're on the money there uh max performance data let's talk
about that right uh i mean you've obviously like you made a tweet etc you know didn't you uh talking
about win rates right against you know certain swapping platforms let's say i'm not going to see
osmosis and skip etc but you know, you have made some comments, I believe,
about like big swaps, you know, a few bands, good few bands,
you know, 25, 30k bands, whatever.
Moving forward, how are you guys personally,
internally going to benchmark your success?
So we have been curating a lot of different data, but the main purpose of the data and
the reason we benchmarked against Skip and Bolt or Skip and Osmosis is because right now
those are probably the two primary swapping venues within the Cosmos.
So what we're just trying to showcase is that we are a competitive option compared to them,
but ultimately we want to be integrated with them.
The goal isn't for us to have a standalone front end.
The goal is to actually integrate with the SKIPs of the world so that users, when they go to SKIP, will just get the best possible price.
And right now, with Bolt not being integrated in SKIP, I wouldn't say that's the case.
Now, you're still going to get probably a pretty good price, and they're going to source from all the liquidity sources that they have
currently integrated to give you that best price. But what our data is suggesting is that
there's a lot more value out there. So if they were to integrate Bolt, now those users get that
value. And the way we'll benchmark ourselves is really a few things. One,
it's amount of slippage saved. So comparing how much return you're getting when using Bolt compared
to if you were to use another platform, just to showcase, you know, that the amount of return
that you're getting in addition to what you would have got if you didn't have Bolt. And then I think the other one will just be
really focusing on how many users we can attract
and how much volume we can attract through Bolt.
I think those are two of the biggest pieces of it.
I also think for Bolt specifically,
where it really shines is with larger trades.
So I think for whales and people who are trying to do bigger trades, that's where Bolt will see its most success.
So we'll definitely want to understand what the average swap sizes are that we're servicing.
But overall, the benchmarking for us will really be integrations at the top level, because we just want to get Bolt basically integrated to as many
DeFi platforms, specifically aggregators, as possible so that more people have access to this
and are able to get better pricing on their swaps. And then we'll look to expand to other products as
well. But for now, it's really the aggregator focus where we see the most opportunity and the most value we can create. I love the fact that John's got his hand up because
the next question was for him. John, on that point, what are you going to say, brother?
Yeah, just to highlight some of the data that we've been collecting on the inside. So
like Max said, you know, Bolt really shines at scale. So if you're, you know, a whale or a foundation or a validator or someone moving large sums,
you know, slippage is something you face all the time.
And actually, because large swaps impact pools in the traditional AMM models so much,
that's when you experience the most slippage.
So for example, Max put together
some data points, even on like a $25,000 swap of Atom right now in the Cosmos, you would likely
face a 7% slippage, which comes to just under $2,000. And if, you know, that's a substantial
amount of money. And if you instead used a bolt powered
swap or say someone integrates bolt you would save that almost two thousand dollars and just pay
the you know the bolt swap fee which ends up being like 50 bucks so the savings there are
quite material and then that only gets more significant at scale if you are moving $100,000 or $500,000.
Those numbers really become very impactful.
And another, sorry.
I guess I just wanted to highlight one more thing
because I just thought of it.
Another benchmark for us that I think is extremely relevant,
and I actually tweeted about it, which reminded me, is win rate.
And all a win rate means is on a given swap, when compared to other venues, would we win that swap?
And so that's important for us to understand what percentage of the volume we can win over based on just having more
efficient pricing. And that's something I recently highlighted in one of my tweets because what we're
showing right now is that we're winning about 50% of trades against Skip. And I think it's somewhere
in the around 75-ish percent against Osmosis. So that means if we were to get integrated with
these platforms on the assets
that we currently support we would be winning 50 of the trades coming through um and and that's i
think pretty significant that means that almost 50 of the trades people are participating in
they're not getting the best price available in the cosmos i know sometimes people on rackfm
uh complain about a lack of follow-up questions and there's
a reason sometimes for this is that we want to get out uh as much data and information as possible
and we we like to chew things over as well on the replays i guys you might obviously know
we had a mag magma on from cosmos on friday and you know we did we did ask you know a number of
yes or no questions at the beginning of the interview very uncharacteristically we did it
and we talked about like fractured liquidity uh so if we just base it this question on like a cosmos
ecosystem fit right you probably know where i'm going with
this here and i would like to ask you guys you know are you exploring uh any particular like
partnerships uh have you spoken to interchange labs or other like high level sort of you know
highbrow uh cosmos projects? Are there ongoing discussions?
You might not be able to talk about stuff.
You might.
I don't know.
But that's the question.
Yeah.
We're definitely talking to all the teams in the Cosmos
to see how we can get integrated and partner with them.
Like I said, that's the ultimate goal.
And how are you being received? How are you being received there max cordially um
yeah yeah of course um i would say when we talk to certain teams i think initially what they asked
for is is like data right like they wanted to see that the resources and integration efforts
they'd commit are are worth. So that's why we started
to really compile these metrics that I've been sharing. And we have actually a much larger
dashboard, and I'll probably continue to share the metrics that I've found, that we're showing
to these teams to say, essentially, like, look, this product works. It will improve the user experience
when people are swapping.
It's worth your time and effort to integrate.
I mean, it's been well-received,
especially on the SUI side of things.
We've received really good support
and have gotten commitments
from pretty much all the major aggregators.
On the Cosmos side,
it's been a little bit more difficult,
mainly because of things like resource constraints and backlogs.
So we've been talking to Skip for a little bit here, and we've provided them now with some data to help support and justify the efforts that would be needed to integrate.
But they still have a lot on their plate, and we understand that. So we're trying to do whatever we can to alleviate the amount of
lift it would take for them to integrate us and give them enough reasons to justify putting forth
that effort. So we'll continue to work with them and hopefully get an integration sooner rather
than later. And we're also doing the same thing with, for example, Leap trying to get integrated
into their in-wallet swaps. They were another team that just wanted to see some data before they made a commitment.
So we've provided that, and now we're working with them to figure out what a timeline would
look like. So I think the biggest issue right now is just resource constraints for a lot of teams.
But we hope that over the next few weeks or month, we can really work with them to figure out a way to prioritize Bolt's integration, because we really do feel like it provides a lot of value to not just Bolt, but to users and really the Cosmos ecosystem.
Because once it's integrated in Skip, almost every user will be able to take advantage of the savings and efficiency that Bolt provides.
take advantage of the savings and efficiency that Bolt provides.
And right now it's a bit more difficult because you have to navigate directly to the connect.archway.io swapping page to access it.
And it's hard to convince a user to go out of their way, even if there is savings.
So that's why we think it's super important that we get integrated with existing platforms that already have users,
important that we we get integrated with existing platforms that already have users have platforms
people are um used to using um and are in the habit of using and still providing them with the
same value max i will say this to you listen to me right your your bloody answers are far more concise
and easy to follow than like 95 of founders I've spoken to in the past.
Like founders love a ramble, right?
But like, I love the conciseness of it.
John, anything you want to say about the Cosmos ecosystem fit?
Not really.
I think Max nailed it on its head.
You know, we understand teams might be hesitant to integrate.
You know, they've in the past spent a lot of resources, maybe with previous integrations that didn't quite deliver the value that they were hoping.
And so we understand the hesitancy to commit, you know, certain resources.
So that's why on our end, like Max said, we're compiling the data, we're running the scripts and we're saying you know we will help from our side
in any sort of way to make this as seamless as possible as far as integrating but mac mac
summed it up properly oh you're a class i'll tell you what b-bands what an interview this is darling
thanks for listening in i know you're busy i know you've got a lot on your plate
hey i will i'll tell you what obviously we always try to keep it under an hour, or on the hour I should say guys, I could talk to you guys for two days, I will just give a speaker request if I can to Scott down there, Scott might want to come in with a question, normally guys on a closed mic we wouldn't bring people in but we kind of know a bit of history
here uh there is going to be some worries no doubt right between people uh regarding the complexity
of on-demand liquidity right they're always going to be like these doubts etc etc the naysayers yeah
uh and you've got this like you know crazy multi-chain vision right you
guys you know flowing like water like bruce lee right i love it by the way i actually do love it
and i'm i'm kind of like gonna ask you you know about moving forward your biggest challenges right your biggest roadblocks uh have you have you come across them
yet within your plans we talk about the roadmap etc etc you know your ambitions are big i love
big ambitions right like if we think about the complexity of what you guys are trying to do
right on demand liquidity yeah and if we think about this entire like multi-chain vision
right blah blah blah like moving forward like come on guys tell us like what are
going to be your biggest challenges or your roadblocks
honestly i think it's it's just getting integrations is probably the biggest roadblock
because ultimately that's that's the hardest part,
right? We've already built out the platform. It's working as intended, but now we just need
to get the integrations done so that it's more available to users. I mean, there's inherent
roadblocks you'll face along the way, like improving the product, adding more features.
And that's just more of, I would say, a resource constraint than anything.
It just takes a lot of time and effort to build out these things.
But we have a lot of stuff, you know, in mind that we'd like to add to Bolt
to make it really improve the product in general.
So I wouldn't say there's inherently major blockers that we've been facing other than just not having enough, you know, developers who can build out the product as fast as we'd like.
Say what I said about concise. John, you got anything there?
Yeah, it's really that kind of that first integration, those first few to secure those is typically the hardest.
But we feel once we start to lock those down and it starts to bring the value that we're showing it can bring, it's kind of like pushing the first dominoes.
So it's just getting those first few locked in, which we're confident we'll be able to do over the coming weeks.
Go on, Max.
Yeah, I guess I did think of another one.
I would say another blocker would probably be just scaling the liquidity as a whole.
If we want to deploy outposts across different chains and really expand this, you need to
have liquidity on those chains, at least for the time being, until we can find an efficient
enough routing
mechanism to where you can just move the liquidity to wherever it needs to be.
But if people want to do really large trades and there's a lot of volume coming through,
you need to have a decent amount of liquidity available.
So that means you have to bootstrap liquidity for all the different supported assets.
So I'd say that's somewhat of a blocker just
because you have to acquire all this liquidity. But I think there's pretty simple solutions to
that. One being just working directly with foundations and teams. So for example, if you
work directly with like Celestia or The Hub, they could even provide liquidity up front so that you have depth to service large
amount of volume and size of trades. Or another thing that we're going to add as a feature later
on down the road is the idea of permissionless liquidity provision. So that would allow a user
to deposit into a single-sided pool so they'd avoid impermanent loss, which would be, I think,
great for a lot of people, and then still earn from the volume that's flowing through the liquidity
that they're providing. And I think once you open up the permissionless side, that's where scaling
the liquidity becomes much easier. And you could even incentivize people to provide liquidity
where it's needed most so i do
think there are inherent roadblocks related to that but at the same time i think there's pretty
simple solutions to it it's just you know putting that into play so that it doesn't become an issue
yeah man i had a whole thing about a single-sided pools but like you kind of almost eliminated it when you wiped out questions like
7 to 11 earlier when i mentioned it i was like oh these guys are fucking front running me
guys we don't normally do this we do try to keep the interviews to an hour they always do the best
numbers on every platform including expert spotify etc Spotify, etc, etc, you know. The longer shows
never ever do the numbers.
My crush is
in the room. Now, sorry, like, Scott,
I'm not stealing your woman, you know, but your
nurse is a crush, right?
Bella, darling, you've joined as
a guest speaker. You know, Robbo loves you to bits,
right?
I do, I do.
And, you know, I'd like to meet you at some point yeah with supervision stop
stop woman stop now bella i've got no doubt you're following the guys though right
oh i've been listening i've been listening so what you got what you got for us, darling? What you got for us? I do have a very big question.
Okay, you guys are, I understand what you're doing.
Yeah, I understand it all too well.
The market as a whole is very, very, very uncertain right now.
As far as transactions in the Cosmos ecosystem goes,
Osmosis is losing out on volume going out. Cosmos Hub is losing out. How are you going to convince
people to come into those ecosystems when they don't want anything to do with them?
I think that's a very fair question.
And to be honest, we've noticed these trends as well.
The reason we deployed the first outpost in the Cosmos was because one, we're most familiar with the Cosmos being that, you know, we're a Cosmos native team.
We also wanted to provide value to the Cosmos and Archway as well. So that was one of
the key pieces to why we started here. But the end goal was always to actually go to ecosystems that
do have the users and do have the volume and that have seen growth. And that's why Sui has been our
other primary focus. We see that as an ecosystem that has grown quite a bit over the
last year and is continuing to, you know, grow its volume and user base. So that's why we've
kind of focused on them. We also see a lot of opportunity because there is inefficiencies in
a lot of their pools. So yeah, I mean, I think those are valid concerns. And that's why we want
this product to be, you know, across multiple different chains, and really focusing on the ones that we see a lot of long term potential on. And what's unique about this is, you know, it's difficult to convince a user to come trade on your, your interface, because there's a lot of competition. And there's a lot of different venues where they can already do that and so that's why
we're also focused on not being a front end and really just working with existing applications
and and dApps so when you look at for example Cetus on Sui they're doing around 100 million
in volume a day right and that's that's probably more than the Cosmos is doing as a whole in a day. So when you plug into them as a product, you're getting access to those users in that volume regardless.
Even though you didn't win them over or have to do anything to acquire them, you now have exposure to that volume.
So that's kind of why we think this type of product will work is because you're not fighting for the users in volume.
You're really fighting to integrate with existing products that already have it.
And then, like you mentioned, it's finding the right ecosystems that have growth potential and aren't seeing declines.
But at the same time, we do want to support the Cosmos.
And we hope that by providing this type of service it could give people a reason to stick
around in the cosmos or bring new users into it because they're no longer sacrificing on price
when they're trying to either enter or exit a position john yeah and i actually you know max
touched on it at the end there and i just want to expand upon that so i'm not sure if you were
uh in the space earlier bella when Bella, when I was talking about this.
But when you have poor on-chain pricing because of slippage, it pushes users away from decentralized environments to centralized exchanges where they get the best pricing.
So what Bolt does is it solves those inefficiencies, allowing users to stay in these ecosystems.
So instead of people running away to Binance or Coinbase in order to get good pricing,
they can hang out in the cosmos and still get that efficient pricing.
So why we can't, you know, Bolt is not here to, you know,
solve any sort of larger macro issues with these ecosystems,
we can solve and we are solving a very targeted problem which is pricing
and efficiency on chain so we're able to effectively mirror the price you would get on
coinbase or binance on chain and that allows users to stick around dApps to see more volume
and ecosystems to retain users more there are some ridiculous use cases for use.
Bella, are you happy with the answers?
I've heard similar answers before.
This is going to wind up being a wait and see.
I mean, no offense, but we've heard verbiage like this before.
I guess I'm, because I do understand where you're
coming from. I guess I'm curious to know what you mean by that, just because I don't think we're
promising to bring users to the cosmos necessarily. That's a broader issue that I think the whole
ecosystem needs to better figure out how to do. But for the people who are here or do come to try
it out, we think we can offer more efficiency
which we do think is a positive it may not be enough um but in general i don't think that's
the goal of bull is to like bring in new users it's just to provide more value and more efficiency
for existing users um who are here and do want to have better pricing on their trades that's what i picked up on
that's what i picked up on when i when i did the deep dive and i looked i was like okay okay
i'm i'm getting it i'm feeling it i tell you what mind max he hasn't been able to join he was
desperate to join was old red eye he made some the hangover reference i believe like harrow mr kim or some i'm not good
with chinese accents but apparently you and red eye had a good night out there i believe is that
right in denver oh me and me and red go way back actually we we were even on a uh a podcast together
for a while that we created um we've worked together closely probably almost two years ago now or a year and a half ago.
But yeah, I mean, we've spent a lot of time together.
I've stayed with him while at conferences, like we've rented houses together there.
And he's one of my closest friends, I'd say, in the space.
Although, don't get to see him or talk to him nearly as much these days but yeah
he's one of the first people that i really connected with is connected with in this space on a
more real friendship level so love red oh dude we adopted him man we rag fm adopted him and he's
been he's been the greatest addition to the team this year like we adopted him end of last year
beginning of the show yeah and he's just
become like he couldn't believe the group chat the first but then he was like he slotted right in
he's he's he is one of the nicest kids and b-bands please delete the fucking picture of him with his
fucking pierce nipples because i know for a fact i know for a fact he's thirst trapping you and i'm
not happy about the b-bands you know you know you only allow rubbers thirst traps right guys we're almost i think we'll be on the hour
what a fucking classic ragfm what a great ragfm we're not pretenders we're we like to just do
shows that we want to do. And this is banging.
Like you're on point.
Like just keep doing what you're doing.
Keep your vision.
Keep rolling.
Keep hustling.
Keep grinding.
Keep pushing.
For anybody listening, guys, on the replay,
this might be for John actually.
Like, John, if anybody wants to like get involved
with what's happening, like with more liquidity, just follow the mission, the journey, what you guys are trying to do.
Have we got telegrams or have we got discords or how and where can people take a bit of an interest in what you guys are doing outside of just following you on X?
Yeah, I appreciate that.
So definitely, you know, the following on X,
we also have a Telegram announcement channel
and there's gonna be a lot coming down the pipeline
over the coming weeks.
You know, there's a lot of stuff we're working on
behind the scenes.
So you can, there's no Discord at the moment
that may come further down the road
as some other things develop,
but right now it's simply
just x and telegram and uh yeah we'd appreciate the follow oh dude i'll tell you now max listen
to this john uh it reminds me of like the first time like i interviewed like sam uh it skipped
way back in the day before he obviously moved to like Time Wave, yeah? And I don't know.
Like, I'm a lover, right?
Not a fighter when it comes to this.
I love back-end projects, right?
I love shit that makes shit run on the back-end.
So when you hit me up, and I did mention this at the beginning of the show,
you know, guys, we didn't reach out to them.
They reached out to us. that always intrigues our curiosity like if someone's willing to come on
rackfm you're like okay who are these and i did a deep dive you know as you can tell by the
short of night or today and i was like you know this is just the kind of project that i love like i love working in i love people who make mechanisms that people don't
even have to lose sleep over or worry over and so personally from from the team at least 50 of us
i know me and red eyes on board and i'm sure with the rest i'm only and i'm only joking for the replay but i will say that uh i
personally right and we the team wish you guys all the best of look mine max mine um i'm telling you
i'm i'll be watching this moving forward intently all right max yeah yeah no i appreciate it and
and i would encourage you to to try it out as well um if you go to connect.archway.io slash swapping or just go to
connect.archway.io and you can navigate to the swapping interface, just check it out. When you
go to do a swap, it will show you what the current price you would get on Osmosis or Skip as well.
And so if you see that you're getting a better price elsewhere, then you can go ahead and trade
there.
But I think it's worth actually testing the product for yourself and seeing if you actually can get the better pricing on your swaps.
And that's if people are playing with size.
Did you hear that, people?
That's like, I love this, like, get stick in the mountain like this is where we are.
You're playing with size, bro. If you're going to use this, people listen on the mountain like this is where we are you're playing with size bro if you're
gonna use this people listen on the replay right didn't come here we're fucking shit didn't come
here with your fucking two dollar airdrop now you're talking size and and this is what's interesting
is because there are a lot of people in crypto right with size a lot of natives hey john we are gonna
i know we've got a request but we don't know who it is or we're always sketchy hey john before we
wind down brother any parting words you would say for like the replays or the audience
um well first i just want to appreciate you know you having us on it's been an absolute pleasure
and uh and to everyone listening in just thanks for joining in and giving us your ear for the past hour.
We're excited about Bolt, obviously. We work on the product. We do see this as being a major issue, even though it's a very specific issue.
If we can solve it, that is a contribution in our eyes and it just makes DeFi ecosystems
that much stronger and healthier. And so really that at the end of the day is our goal is just to
provide value. And this is a unique solution and really it works. We don't have to wish or hope
it's actually working. The data shows it. And like Max said said you can go to connect at archway and without
even you know spending any capital just play around with the swap and it'll show you the savings uh
and you will see that at scale the savings are quite material so i just really appreciate your
time and thanks for having us oh mate always a pleasure never a chore trust me we've done a lot of pled projects that we wish we
hadn't fucking done and if we actually see it we're enjoying this interview to fuck we're enjoying
this interview to fuck trust me brother i mean i know i sound like a pikey pirate uh but we know
what works you know i just want to say guys if anybody listen on the replay right these two as well publicly uh are a great
accompaniment to each other uh they're actually a great foil work very very well and and you know
we have a set of boxes that we tick aye and today tonight we're taking all of the bloody boxes
all right that's all i want to say max i want to thank you very much for your time and
your concise answers today i appreciate it brother okay yeah no no problem and i appreciate you
having us on like john said it's we're just trying to get the word out as much as possible
just make sure people are aware uh what we're trying to do with bolt and hopefully they'll
test it out uh and then in the future hopefully they won't even
have to worry about bolt but they'll still get the advantages of it once we have some more
integrations with with different aggregators yeah man and i think i think we'll uh we'll chat a
little bit further in the dms and uh help to get the word out uh i'm i'm actually pumped like i
said i'm a big fan you know we had skip on when skip nobody knew who skip was
and then when sam moved on the time wave uh we had him on twice we've had him on twice for time
we have alone when it was part-time and then full-time for him uh but i'm gonna highly
appreciate the conversation today and on that note people we are gonna wind it down we do like to
keep it you know we're on an hour and seven minutes right now where we're in five we're doing gucci i bet any money this does ridiculous replays because
if you're in the cosmos if you're interested in liquidity and you don't listen to this space
you're an absolute fucking pleb and on that note people we're going to wind it down it is wednesday
i believe the 6th of august 2025 and right about now finn's music's going to wind it down. It is Wednesday, I believe, the 6th of August, 2025.
And right about now, Finn's music is going to kick in on the podcast versions, right?
So on Spotify, you can find Rack FM everywhere.
Anywhere you listen to your podcasts, you'll be able to find Rack FM, right?
And on that note, this has been Rack FM, 69.420 fm coming in your ears five days a week people it's half 11 in bangkok
good night god bless we love you wherever you are in the world take care everybody bye bye
