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Real World Asset Revolution in Defi & NFTs
Recorded: Dec. 5, 2023 Duration: 1:11:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
the room up
i like the way you bite down
i know you got a man that's fine
i know you got a man that's fine
difficult portions yeah i got five leaves
so do you got time for me
all right
all right
what's up everyone
uh that was
got time for me
by jamie jones and
channel trace
really really great
two artists huge fan of both of those
guys actually
um what's up
what's up how are we doing how are we kicking how are we feeling
we're clanging
hey hey
what's up what's up
happy tuesday
yeah buddy
oh we looks like uh
i see fidget all down there as listener
we're gonna get him up here
is he up here already
there's our guy was wondering if he
was gonna make it
gonna be asleep
seven a.m
f you that was
huge props to the man huge props to the man
west coast seven a.m
getting up early to grind
my guys up with the markets
that's for sure
i hate you
well you look you look
great kid you look
great
lot of f-bombs were dropped in that call yesterday
fidgetle
my dog is looking me wondering why i'm awake
and walking around the house and drinking coffee
man so so the dog
actually uh adjusts from time zone design zone does he or does he
does he travel with you
yes he does he travels well
he'll be in miami for our basil
and then i'll come to new york afterwards
nice nice
he's got quite the personality that
online that dog he's pretty much
i would say famous
and my girl just took over his uh his instagram
so she's now like sending me
i don't know what these things are reels or
posts i don't know
videos
yeah that's awesome yeah ig
is where it's at for the pooches
pump it
brand building machines on instagram
honestly my girl uses
him in shoots sometimes
i'm figuring i think we're gonna get it get
him signed might as well make some money on top
of it
yeah why not
uh give him some of that locally
sourced non-gmo dog food
i mean
what kind of world are we living what kind of world
are we living in when when when the dog
can can can be signed
why are you guys laughing by the way this is a very
serious conversation
he's already working for free
deadly serious
no dogs work for free around here
we're pro dog pay equal pay for dogs
oh my god
especially when they're eating that locally sourced artisanal dog food
oh boy
i should make him a friend tech huh
yeah
how is it 10.06 and we're already off the rails
we're just getting started baby
i'm excited to talk it was nice to meet you guys
yesterday i'm happy to support
uh shout out to davo and the audience
uh i think this is what community is supposed
to mean right we support each other
so uh davo has been a supporter
of uh the shimps and
and fruity landed two boys and myself
so i figured i'd uh i'd share
the love and come support y'all i'm excited
to talk about your product
we're glad super
super appreciate
davor got uh got involved
real early with us as well
and um you can just tell like
the guy loves being in the middle of it
uh here's support
you know seems to be like that
you know the true essence of that
excuse me of that web3 ethos
you know like
we're we're stronger together
and um and he's you know
having connections um
and actually doing it right like not just
it's it's great and we need
the the sort of let's call it
passive engagement
um but uh but he's a guy who kind
of rolls up his sleeves and gets
involved and and and we super
appreciate that
i will tell you it's a testament to the
to one thing that's pretty incredible this
space which is
my mom always told me and i don't listen to
much of what my mom says in fact most
things that she teaches me i do the
opposite so uh
that's worked pretty well for me
i said uh it's not a no until you ask
right in the web3 i find that to be
particularly true
um the power of just reaching out and
the power of people wanting to help in
this space is i believe underutilized
and under tapped on a regular basis
so uh don't be afraid reach out
ask somebody nine out of ten times
it works out well so true
yep so true yeah we we talked a
little bit yesterday about um
uh you know exactly that
like you know being able to get directly
in touch with with some other founders
especially of course we're in this little
you know hopefully that may be the
beginning of a bull but anyway
you know some type of little bump here
that that feels more fun
um but those of us who have been hanging
around here through this through this
bear market it's like that's been that's
been great uh you know you find it is a
lot easier to make those connections
because you know a lot of the fluff and
a lot of the bs was kind of rung out of
the you know rung out of the market
and and and sort of you know disappeared
from crypto crypto twitter so
made it a little easier to make more
um meaningful connections
even more direct right sorry to belabor
but uh and this is actually good advice
for everybody you guys included i would
say um i when i build products i choose
the chain that makes the most sense
but in terms of ecosystem tokenomics
uh how i'm building my product whether
whether it requires uh uh familiarity with
the underlying token for for um how it
functions all those pieces one of the
projects that i'm doing is a digital
project obviously and i wanted to work
with vchain because they're the number
one digital chain and have been forever
and a bunch of other reasons um so i've
worked with them before um which you
would think would give you kind of like a
a leg up but use the leg up got to like
the higher ups and ask for a grant and
they said no problem you have to go
through the normal grant program
process so i did and it was hellish
through github you had to fork a
repository and and you literally have
to be like edward snowden to be able to
properly fill out this application
yeah so i was frustrated as fuck cost
me a couple grand just to get it filled
out um and so i i had hosted v chain on
will be media and i'll host you guys as
well in fact we're doing an rwa space
right now so maybe we move over there
after this space and do a little a little
continuation and maybe a nice little
grilling by uh by seth and the team
who are dope um but i saw i was really
frustrated with the application process
and i saw sunny lou the founder of v chain
in a space so what did i do of course i
went into the space i immediately
requested up i knew the people that
were hosting it and i proceeded to shit
on the application process to the founder
directly um in in web three what's
supposed to happen is you don't
consider it fud instead they took my
advice they're reshaping their entire
grant program we're going to be doing
it live and yes it's going to impact the
likelihood of my grant going through
but the idea is you can literally pop
onto a stage with the fact with founders
of chains with the people making the
decisions if you have the balls and go
after what you want directly in this
space and i think it's a beautiful thing
i love it yeah that's and that's part
of being so early right is uh there are
these layers and layers of you know
bureaucracy and middle management and
process um or it sounds like in your
case there was this layer of process but
they were you know they were open to
change it um it's the the you know the
space is so new no one's yet stuck in
their ways you know it's maybe another
way to look at it well it's it's it's
the so in in a a corporate ladder right
that would never happen in fact if you
shat on a portion that wasn't c-suite
and you weren't c-suite uh it wouldn't
get fixed you'd get fired most likely
right you'd be said you'd be sitting at
hr and you'd be and these words are
coming out of your mouth to be like i was
just trying to help i thought it was a
good idea and of course everybody above
and below you was saying don't shake
the boat just fucking clock out at five
and grab your paycheck here sunny the
founder of v chain literally didn't
know that it doesn't make sense to have
a complicated github repository for an
application for a grant when you're
trying to get builders and and user
flow onto your platform right and
thirty thousand dollars isn't going to
pay for a dev for a successful app
so right so i understand not wanting
to give out more than 30 grand to a
project that you're probably just
throwing that money away but then
you're not really being genuine about
wanting to bring products onto your
chain so you got to increase it to a
hundred grand you should be asking
likelihood of success pieces team
members go to market strategy and so
they are literally redesigning the
platform because he heard from the
bottom up and wants to make those
changes so it's really cool very very
very very cool
yeah a big in a big part of the a big
part of the reason for sure that that
I'm here you know I've been I've been
sort of you know out on my own so I
haven't had anyone to you know answer
to so to speak or whatever you know
except from the bot like you just
talked about from the top down on the
bottom up in my world that looks like you
know top down is if I were working
for you know a bigger corporation and
bottom down is like you know lower
employees or whatever the hat that I
wear now it's funny I just had this
conversation yesterday with one of my
biggest investors and one of my mentors
and and he was talking about his
challenges in in the corporate big
real estate world he's he's formerly a
director at avison young big commercial
leasing and capital market shop and he
was talking about how even though we're
in a downturn right we're in a we're in
a challenging interest rate environment
and and even though the powers that be
above him they know that they still
want to like you know they want reports
run and they want you know they want
different data points to basically like
you know make them feel okay everybody
knows you know we're in we're in a tough
part of the cycle right now it will turn
around and you have to you have to pivot
some but like you know the c-suite or
the powers that be they want their
reports and for me it's like I don't
have any powers that be above me but I
have investors right that I have to
answer to and they kind of some of the
investors want the same thing some of
them know we're in a cycle there's a
little downturn there's a little
liquidity crunch and they even though
they know the answer which is there's
no liquidity now but we're okay on a
on a loan to value you know standpoint
you know you have to be open and
honest and transparent with all that
stuff and I think in in web 3 the idea
is that the communication can be so
much easier cleaner clearer transparent
than with this like fragmented
investor world that I'm that I'm
dealing with right now I think there's
I think there's some other really cool
benefits as well I was just I'm
often starting to put pieces together
and I'm kind of doing this live right
now I was sitting with a friend of a
friend on Saturday night we were out
and I don't know about you guys but
for me businesses business is not
separate from life I'm always
building in my brain matter what it is
so if I see a friend who's you know
launching a product or a business and
I can I know the stages and it just
naturally I want I want to dive in and
help the business and I started to
and I started to apply web 3 possibilities
to his IP enforcement content company
and while while you were talking I was
thinking about think about the benefits
that can happen from an active investor
group right so how we how I also do
real estate doctors as well you have your
GP and your LP right your GP is your
syndicator on a multifamily or commercial
well when we say commercial it's
residential above a certain number of
units four or more is considered
commercial even though it's residential
right you specifically as an LP don't
want to be involved and as a GP you
don't want the LPs involved you actually
choose your LPs your investors by which
ones will be the least headache usually
right meaning who has ideally you want
investors who have so much money that
they're kind of like the best NFT
buyers which are they just leave the
NFT in their wallet they don't bother
you I once heard I once heard a
founder say that but the idea that
the idea that you could crowdsource
right instead and have an active
community of investors right in a real
estate deal who are who are lending
their their their skill sets right
which is what's happening now you're
seeing Frank finally realize that the
community has skills and can help
build the business with him you're
seeing that with pudgy and a bunch of
other projects made by apes how cool
would it be if you're if you're LP
your your NFT holders or your investors
in the project are like oh shit well I'm
an electrician or I have a
relationship with this and be able to
actually add value to cut down
expenses increase NOI and and and
instead of being headaches increase
the revenue to everybody because your
incentives are aligned super
interesting yeah this this alignment of
incentives is something that I've
been harping on you know ever since
you decide so I again we have a lot of
similarities in the in the real
estate investment background you know I
you know I put I put together my first
PPM for a pooled investment vehicle in
2014 and and the firm that I
contracted with to help me with that you
know they had gone through 08 they had
a very successful debt fund you know
into you know through the high times
and you know 040506 and and they got
their credit lines pulled and and you
know they suffered kind of like all that
all those issues that happened then and
and so they turned into more of a
consulting company an advisory for
people who wanted to launch funds and
that was one of the things that they
really pounded on was this alignment
of incentives and making sure that and
it wasn't just one way you know it
wasn't just oh I want to make sure
my my you know my investors are
properly incented even on the
management side we make sure we're
properly incented you know carried
management fees if there's then you
you know if there's then a loss or a
miss of the preferred return like we
have a clawback structure and and
then but from the other side to like
there are you know they learned a lot
of things about you know like gating
liquidity and things like that so not
to get too far into the into the weeds
on that but that you know I've kind
of that's very baseline to the way I
operate in the way I think about
things is that incentives have to be
aligned and it's right it's actually
relatively easy for me working you know
you know in this space because it's all
tangible benefits right it's all it's
all performance fees or yield or you
know like very quantifiable things and
so you know it's relatively easy for us
to basically codify that you know at the
moment into a partnership agreement and
as we move into web 3 you know into
the into the logic of the of the smart
contracts agreed so why do you want me on
the show well tell us I mean look let's we
heard a little bit about what you were
working on yesterday I'd love to hear a
little more about that and then you know
see if there are see what overlaps if any
there are you know we gave you quick
overview of the forge we're going to
basically be tokenizing real estate debt
and and building a defi platform that
will provide really sustainable truly
sustainable yield driven by you know the
underlying real world assets and so like
you mentioned v chain and and and some
of these other things that you're
working on I love you to kind of just
give us a little better description of of
the various things that you're working
on that you think might have any any
intersection with what we're doing and
and then we can just kind of chop it up
from there interesting so my real world
thanks for the invite guys again I think
one of the the most important it's
funny so how do I put this without
sound weird I like to explore the
technology always have been didn't start
consumer facing till about two years
ago when I came on crypto Twitter
because I launched some cool shit and
they flopped and I wondered why and
then I realized it's because I it's
because my my predilection for for
not shilling and not selling just
doesn't work in this space so I'll
bet you that might I'll bet you
anything especially hard with your
product right the first thing I said
on the phone call is it's not sexy so
you got to make it sexy and there's
and there's I'm sure there's gonna be
some easy ways to do that some
gamification some some some proofs of
concept and stuff like that what's
probably it'll probably be hard to take
off but once you're proving actual
returns right the fact is real estate
if you get into it by the way real
estate is well if you're a nerd like
me and you like math real estate is
fun it makes sense it's a science and
and then if if you invest in certain
ways you also get to be a part of
the life of the product which is also
really fun in my opinion totally
agree it's also nerdy shit but it
also makes a shit ton of money if
you're smart about it I'm I was always
interested in the consumer facing
capable potentials of tokenizing not
tokenizing real world assets but adding
blockchain capabilities and digital
capabilities to physical goods and
kind of turning humans into tokens in a
token economy so I'm focused on
solving how does digitizing physical
goods create new value for all
participants in a transaction or in a
transaction ecosystem so less about
creating liquidity out of assets
although inherently the biggest problem
with fidgetals is how do you how do you
how do you ensure that the method of
transfer of the physical good is via the
sale of the nft and that's a problem
that everybody who's making fidgetals
is going to solve run into so I'm I'm
just solving that problem cool how do
you propose to do that because in real
estate it's relatively easy right
because real estate is still a paper
contracts game and like for example
how we'll solve it is the same way that
the commercial mortgage-backed
securities market has solved it which
is to use a to use a third-party custodian
and they'll hold the original documents
you know until certain conditions are
met and then in the original documents
can be released so with us there's
already a like let's call it a chain of
title like very defined process and so
it's again I'll say relatively easy to
translate that on chain and and work the
smart contracts and the API's and everything
in to you know to make sure that's the
case but but how are how will you go
about solving it when there's not a
where there's not an existing like
backbone or or sort of you know
structure already to to control title
so doc respectfully you didn't actually
answer the question and and that's the
the most important part of this
conversation that people are missing
which is you described how to facilitate
the transfer of the asset via the nft
not why somebody would transfer it via
the nft and the why is the more
interesting question right so in the in
the case of real estate it would be
right we're answering the question of
why would a consumer a buyer seller make
the transaction of the asset be via the
purchase and sale the nft now what that
allows is for all the the automated
features of and benefits of an nfp to
come into effect right so if the money
flows through the sale the nft then you
have the ability to to make automatic
distributions to your to your shareholders
to your investors to use all those
kinds of things but if the sale doesn't
occur through the nft itself then the
nft just remains the secondary part of
the sales transaction so you sell the
property you you wire money across it's
all confirmed and escrow releases the nft
but then that doesn't make the nft
control the transaction and the benefit
in my opinion is when the nft becomes
a method of sale transaction so in real
estate it would be creating a so for
example every time you get your plumbing
done the the receipt the results are
embedded on chain in the trail of title
of the nft so for example the nft could
be a 6551 right and then soul bound to it
could be 721 c's that show proof of
uh plumbing proof of uh fixing the roof all
in one place right now when you're
transferring the asset right the benefit
of the sale is that you want it to go
through the sale of the nft to verify that
i'm buying the asset with these
representations uh attached to it right from
a legal perspective i can always turn back
and go uh yeah you may have said that that
this or that was done but it wasn't included
the nft and in our sale contract it says that
anything that is is included in the nft is
presumed to have been done anything not
included is presumed not to have been done
right black and white super clear for
purposes of litigation which when buying
or selling real estate is your biggest
concern right it's disclosures interesting right
interesting right so how i'm approaching it
that is is in consumer goods which is
approaching from similar things so how
do i increase how do i create uh actions
or or or value add experiences to the
physical good via the nft that makes it
that when someone's buying the product
they're really buying the nft first to
ensure that that piece of product is
what i'm paying a premium for and so the
sale will come through the nft so i'm
encouraging actions uh personally i'm
turning i'm turning items into heirlooms
by being able to add memories and and
content to the nfts that are better than
the physical goods and tokenizing and
rewarding those experiences directly
between consumer and manufacturer so
cool so cool yeah and i mean it's um
and if you're trying to steal my idea
it's already built it'll be launched in
like five weeks so fuck no no i was
actually it's funny i was gonna tell you
it's um you're you know you are uh
levels ahead of of where we are and i
know we only scratched the surface in
our first call tomorrow uh yesterday
rather um but um you know again we are we
are very much concentrated at the moment on
the debt market and so i'm i'm actually not
looking to you know syndicate ownership in
the underlying asset or control the sale of
of the underlying property you know it's
super interesting what you're talking
about and now and i kind of had this like
aha moment where as you well know the
existing um you know real estate
conveyance industry um you know wouldn't
wouldn't let go a wouldn't let go of this
easily um by let go of this i mean like you
um by let go of this i mean like you know
move the conveyance of real estate on chain
um and you know the title insurance companies
and the lawyers and the escrow companies
and the uh you know county registrars of
records and all these other people would
be up in arms about it a b it would take
forever right like if you think about the
provenance and having to prove title and
all those things it would take a long time
to move all these things on chain will it
happen eventually maybe but but what when
you when you were just talking i had this
like kind of aha moment which is there's a
yes we add the value we don't wait for
other people to add the value and you're
not replacing so you know when you sell a
house you're gonna have to go with the you
know old school you know um paper based
contracts deed registry of deed you know that
whole thing however you can kind of create a
parallel um representation um which is what
you're talking about doing and then adding
all these things to it that in my opinion is
extremely cool very very doc all we're
really talking about and this this might blow
your little cartoon minds um when we say
things like the nft becomes a method of
transfer right we're talking about utility we're
just talking right at the end of the day what
what what is utility it's forget forget being paid it's what
makes you uh what makes the purchase of the asset be the
consumption if the acquisition is the consumption right
then you're not speculating on its future value it may
have future value but the utility is in the acquisition
of the asset that is utility and that's what we're
talking about is what makes the the nft the reason you're
using an nft if that's the reason then it proves itself in terms of value proposition
hmm yeah that's against
yes super interesting it's the first time that i'm hearing
any type of utility use case whatever you want to call it you know that um
about the tokenization of you know specific specifically real estate and and let's
say home conveyance it's just a completely different approach to it which is
which is really cool and it's exactly what you're saying
it's um the reason to use it to use the nft which again and you know i will say
would have to be in addition to a you know a conventional conveyance process
process but um but the value is is the reason you do it the value and the utility
you know of the nft that accompanies um you know is its is its own selling point i i that's
very very cool so so doc i'm actually waiting for a lawsuit i know this is weird to say and
it's probably probably won't happen during my lifetime but i've already put a property i put title
so okay i put title into an nft so i put the property into uh uh uh irrevocable living trust
with the beneficiary being the nft and the nft is the title so whoever holds the nft at any given time
owns title to the property it's the beneficiary right so when i die whoever holds the nft at that given time
will legally be the recipient of the property now i don't know if that'll hold up but that's a way to use
an nft that makes sense right no we don't you don't have to transfer title property it's to to each owner
it's simply the the holder of the nft at any given time who then registers their ownership
when they need to prove ownership hmm
yeah super interesting
super interesting i want to jump in and ask a question that's kind of related
related to that if you guys are if that's all right
yeah there's um
you mentioned earlier digital about
uh having you know for instance plumbing work
uh get registered on chain
i have this the biggest thing that drew me to nfts
uh utility with nfts
in the beginning you know
a few years ago when i started kind of like
like touting about this
is is like eliminating the middleman
so you know your real estate agents
appraisals
uh title
lawyers lawyers
everyone that has
that get that gobbles up a piece of the pot
a piece of your
no number that your take home you know
so like
uh have you guys put any thought into
question for both of you guys
maybe this will start
gearing the conversation
in another way but
have you guys put any thought into what that would look like
like how what are the equivalencies
of let's say
an appraiser or
title company like
how do you think that
we can
verify all that
stuff on chain
doc you want to go first
yeah i mean
i mean you've
clearly thought about it in a very different
way than i have i've thought about it in the old
disruption way
which is
and i kind of already went over it
you know the
the attorneys and the title companies and the escrow companies and the
the county register of deeds
you know all these people will be up in arms and against it
um and it will take a huge amount of effort to
you know go back and prove like there's a reason that title
insurance exists
right like
you really do have to go back through the chain of title
make sure that
you know everything was done properly
but like there's a point in time at which okay if the title is
you know is
whatever you want to call it proven out
like
then at that point in time you could put it on chain
and then all that and then
then this ridiculousness of title insurance and
and doing a title search every time a property is conveyed like
goes away
but that takes a lot of work and i think it would see a lot of
pushback from
you know from the incumbent crowd
but but again i think you know
figital is talking about a
very different way of approaching that
that same issue
so okay um
i think
i thought you were going to go a specific direction with your
question but i'll take it there anyhow
because i think it's
it's important and i think where your question was kind
of going
two perspectives one
i always say things like
and and by the way this
the ai has a very similar approach right
the easy answer is
this
this
it's called evolution
right so if your job is replaceable
don't
don't fight it
find a way to become valuable
uh meaning you can't
right it's like
it's like when my mom
raised us right and
i was raised ultra-orthodox jew and she
you know tried to hide the tvs or the magazines like
that doesn't work like i'm not gonna
right
i grew up and i was like fuck
tits
cool thanks mom for hiding that shit
the tits are still there
and i'm gonna go explore that
because
hiding it for me doesn't work
you should have explained to me
that you know tits give you aids or something
and i probably wouldn't have
you know
gone over the d
sorry guys
but you understand my point
yeah yeah
we get it
we get it
oh wow
don't put your head in the sand
you know
evolve
the fact
so when building
right it's very easy to find the problems
in in
in solutions or
or poke holes
much easier to poke holes right
so a lot of people go well
well when you're doing like chain of of information let's say plumbing all that
well what if they put the wrong information in or what if you forget to or what if someone defrauds you
that's
that's like saying crypto is worse money than
it's like
arguing that crypto is worse than dollars because crime happens on crypto
without saying much more crime happens with dollars and by the way
if i give you a dollar you don't know where i got that dollar from with crypto you do
yes it's anonymous but it's anonymous of dollars as well
same thing with like problems
inputs and outputs to the chain are always going to be an issue
meaning
the truth of the information on the blockchain is true as to the fact it's a
asserting
not true as to the fact that you're trying to infer necessarily
right so you can put fraudulent information on chain and it becomes truth of its fraudulence
does that make sense
mm-hmm yep
it doesn't make the fraudulent information true
the point i was trying to say is it's it's
blockchain is not going to get rid of all accountants right
but it's going to automate your ability to do an accounting
by you know pushing a button that gets rid of the need for five different uh underling accountants
that are wasting their time tabulating your your daily weekly monthly uh uh expenses and such
mm-hmm
the answer would be
things like adding
you know
construction defects
city city reports
good or bad
right
it's kind of like how carfax right
a carfax isn't accurate
it's
whatever you've reported to carfax
if i choose not to report
an accident that my buddy who owns a
a body shop
fixed my car and didn't report it
it doesn't mean it didn't happen
you just got to create better mechanisms to make sure the information that's being inputted
or outputted
onto chain in the chain of title
is the highest likelihood of accuracy
i don't know if that's where you're going but
it's
anybody who's solving those pieces in terms of
and again in in a decentralized world that comes with tokenomics right
rewards and punishments with
uh incentives or
you would
tokenize and you would incentivize your on-site manager
right
we do it now
we give him free rent
and we hope that he does his job well
if you can trace
the inputs and the outputs
then you can
make your business more efficient
and that's
those are the things that i would focus on in real estate
sorry for the ramble
no no i love it
i love it
and again it's uh
it's a
it's a new take
you know it's a
it's a
because
and i i was coming at it from
we're not even dealing with title level stuff right now
we're dealing with capital markets
it's almost like
it's almost like really what we're doing is
digging back into structured finance
you know i
my personal background is in real estate
you know but
but this type of
like
on the one side lending
and on the other side
effectively crowdfunding
you know this can be applied to
any underlying asset
or commodity
commodity
or whatever
so that
you know from that standpoint
you know i agree with you
and it's
and it's obvious right
like this is where blockchain
has already gone
this whole proof of stake thing
is what you're talking about
incent
you know
incent quality information
decentralize it to the point where
no single person can be
can you know can have a
can have a bad effect
or if they do
you know you can
you can understand that it was
incorrect or wrong or whatever
and and there's there's punishments
like you said
so yeah i think that's
that's a that's a very different
way to think about it
very cool
you know
we're the
over here at the forge
we're talking about
one of the things
we talk about it and actually
so everything you talked about
you know immediately the word
that comes to my head is
oracles
right when
when you're trying to translate
from the quote unquote real world
over onto blockchain you have to
the inputs to the chain is what
you referred to
talk
we're
we're really we're really talking
about amms
yeah
yeah
yeah okay
right
so where does he
yeah but exactly
so and where do the amms
you know
get their inputs
exactly
if it wasn't obvious
yes i'm working on
on trait based amms
for nfts
for pfps
but inherently
that creates
a an oracle
for value proposition
instant liquidity
for any
rwa as well
which i think is the future
yeah
yeah
yeah and then so again
so going away from this idea
of an oracle
right like like just
kind of replacing dependence
again on some central authority
somewhere
is the goal
but where i was headed was
like with our project is
you know we call it
decentralization by degrees
um you know
we're not going to come to a
fully permissionless
trustless
you know oracle
less
uh system
right out of the gate
and there will be some
like you know sort of
you know team
you know the team
will take on
the sort of underwriting
in the first
in the first case
like we want to make sure
we have good quality
real estate deals
underneath we're not trying
to um
you know decentralize
underwriting just yet
and so
with our project
you're also
you're you're
you're tokenizing the debt
which doesn't write the
it de-risks
the direct investment
into the asset
and in understanding
the industry
versus having
just a collateralized
debt instrument
exactly right
this is what i'm trying
it's a more pure financial play
exactly
where it does connect
back out to the real world
again this is somewhat
centralized
and so
eventually we want to replace
those pieces
and since it is
you know almost purely a
financial transaction
a lot of it can be
automated
but i would i would caution
that you know
underneath you know real
estate is
i mean we saw what
happened
um you know with the
mortgage madness in the
early 2000s
you know when you tried to
go to desktop
underwriting and pure
automated underwriting
you know people will
always find a way to game
the system
especially
you know with the amount
of dollars that are
a concern here
are you are you clarifying
like what position the debt
is and what that means
like preferred position
and like
uh probably be really good
probably really good for
education so are you guys
focusing on education
i would love to see a tool
that like modelers and
stuff like that that
explains
how realistic
because it'd be really cool
to take this like
less risky position
as an entrance into
into building a skill set
right
people nfts do right
they buy they buy
how many stories do we
hear about i bought this
nft let's say a kid
called beast
and then i got my entire
you know my files
and fuck it
i started to learn blender
and i i forgot that
when i was 16
i dropped out of high school
i taught myself how to
code linux
and it made sense
and now i've started a
whole new career
right
yeah exactly
and that's exactly what
so for sure
at the base of it it's a
it's a d5 platform
real estate investment
platform
but behind the community
behind that's exactly
what we want to build
uh educational materials
um exactly you're saying
here's here's real estate
finance one-on-one
here's what a first
mortgage is
here's what a second
mortgage is here's what
a preferred equity position
is because secret guys
secret how the rich stay
rich is real estate
i've been saying this
forever
how the rich stay rich
it's it's the biggest
fucking tax write-off
safe haven
yeah
most manipulated industry
like you can you can
avoid paying taxes like
forever by just putting
these things into blind
trust and and like and
then you have and once
there once there's
tokenization the biggest
the biggest headache is
it's funny i had this a
while back i had to pay
somebody some money and
they're like oh just you
know take it from one of
your properties i'm like
yeah i i am i have to
pull a line it's gonna
take me four months yeah
like what do you what do
you mean like yeah i'm
like i know i have i
i have you know i've
uh eight uh eight to one
ltv uh i'm sorry uh
uh equity to to loan but
i need to go through the
underwriting process and
they're like but isn't it
your property and isn't
that your equity i'm like
yeah i know it doesn't
make sense you add
liquidity with
tokenization and make
real estate a more
liquid market it's it's
massive yes exactly that's
exactly what it is and
that's the benefit like
you talked earlier about
what's the what's the
benefit what's the utility
what's the utility and and
by degrees that's where
we're headed is to you
know to provide more
liquidity in what has
been an otherwise
extremely illiquid market
as well as break down
those barriers like you
said you know typically
only accredited investors
had access to these
things and and this is
going to get fought
heavily right you know
there's a lot of people
that are going to lose a
lot of money and a lot
of positioning of this if
this kind of stuff works
right oh yeah this is a
game for the rich and the
and the facilitators of the
rich exactly right yes
yep and and so but
whatever but that's that's
why like you know I
think if we can build this
correctly that's why we're
starting with an NFT mint we
want to build a community
first right because we will
get the we will get the
FUD we will get the and
not just FUD but like real
attacks right like all that
stuff will come and so
that's why we're starting
with community first and
and and not just the same
old boys network right I'm
not hiring lobbyists and
attorneys and and you know
the well-connected
accountants and and all
that like we're not we're
not playing that game
where we're literally
setting out to build this
thing from the ground up
this is this is real
estate private equity for
the people and by the
people like that's
my guess is my guess so for
those who don't know
and these are just facts
space is recorded please
delete this afterwards
the reality is that most
like how you make real real
money in real estate is
having having your fingers
in government so
entitlements if you can
take a piece of property
I literally I've done
deals where we didn't
touch the dirt you bought
dirt that that and by the
way it gets really shady
there there are a lot of
companies that will
actually go to the
government to ensure that
entitlements aren't granted
for certain pieces of
property you know so let's
say for let's say for
example the easiest way to
analyze an up-and-coming
investment would be oh
shit they're building a
subway nearby so there's
gonna be a subway stop in a
residential in a residential
neighborhood where the
urban commercial areas
what was like say 45
minute drive before now
becomes an eight to ten
minute subway ride right
so you know that anybody
that had to pay you know
X before downtown will
we'll probably pay X minus
thirty percent for a ten
minute subway ride right so
if I know that's happening
because I've ended with the
government I know there's a
measure that's about to be
passed that that's going to
override a previous let's say
firewall on on a construction
location I'll then go and be like
okay so these four properties
around the subway station that
are currently zoned R1 which is
just single-family home
residential I don't want you to
change that no matter what
anybody says right because but
but I want it to be a C4 I want
it to be you know a massive
commercial and real estate
property that's going to make
me hundreds of millions of
dollars you can literally pay
government officials to ignore
applications and then make some
bids on the property buy it out
and then just go and change the
entitlement to a C4 and that
property is worth eight X what it
was that's what the rich do so if
you have a community where oh
shit somebody's in like oh I
know the mayor there right there's
the power of community that can
be really beneficial to deal
making as well which is super
interesting yep yes yeah and I
think if we start with this you
know web 3 ethos and the
power of decentralization and you
know not just reserving all these
deals for you know for the select
few you know we're more likely to
cast a wider net yeah we'll catch
some of those people who have you
know the influence like that or
connections into influence but I
just I feel like it's a more
sustainable and and will kind of
like allow us to stay true to our
roots you know because you've seen
that I've seen that so many times
even in even here in the in my home
market you I see private lenders
go into business they'll and then
next thing you know they're
partnered up with the biggest
developers and you know they've
just swallowed up all the capital
and now just trying to do deals
for themselves and so with us it's
like this this the reason to start
small and start grassroots it's
because I don't want to turn into
this like you know relatively small
community of incredibly you know
powerful real estate investors I
want to leave this open you know
to the masses that leads to a good
question so for those who don't
know again any good real estate
investor you're not buying anything
on the market meaning if it's on if
it's on if it's on Redfin or Zillow
and like that it's like it's like
buying an nft project from an
influencer on Twitter right back in
the bull if you didn't get that shit
from reddit or 4chan right you're
already three layers behind you're
getting dumped on same thing with
real estate right if that shit's
public there's seven people in
between that are taking a slice of
that pie that need to get paid and
they couldn't they couldn't find a
private buyer off market you know
off-market you know anybody anybody
worth their salt is buying off-market
stuff right like the real tricks
are you befriend the your
girlfriends best friends neighbors
Zadie grandfather who owns you
know four properties in Korea town
and you know he's getting up there
and you go over for Shabbos dinner
and you have a little yeah you have
a little you have a little holla
and some wine and then when and
then you hear him griping one when
Shabbos he's like you know I'm
kind of tired of and the kid you
know barrel you don't want your
kids to you don't want to burden
them with managing this property
they just want money this one's an
artist little little Yankee wants
to be wants to be in finance
nobody wants to manage this
property why don't I take it off
your hands and and and and you'll
avoid the inheritance your family
won't fight right now you're not
paying a broker now you're getting
it now you're negotiating a deal
directly that's that's how you buy
property so little tricks by the way
guys just be friend the friend the
other way is the other way is and
this is the real trick is you go why
are you this management companies is
ripping you off I'll do it for half
the price and you manage a property
for for you know no profit but you're
the first person he speaks to when
that property he's getting a little
tired hey I've been already managing
it why don't why don't we go into a
deal well you know I'll buy half the
equity so how this is how it works
guys by the way 100% how are you
getting a deal flow yeah so then this
is what I love about being a lender
right so we we've been a private
lender in this market for you know
eight nine years and and I've been
doing real estate deals around town
for you know 10 12 years and so you
and so you know we're we're known as
being able to move fast and so you
know I get the calls I get the calls
from attorneys from accountants from
real estate agents you know the pocket
listings we talked a little bit about
yesterday I get the early looks I
haven't built the kind of like you're
you're sort of referring to I don't
want to call it a retail network but
like you know an actual you know sort
of hand-to-hand you know getting to
know directly the property owners but
for me it's like this those sort of
center in center of influence people
like I said like the attorney when
somebody gets in some trouble or is
doing estate planning whatever their
attorneys they talk to accountants and
of course real estate agents so but
but by by being a lender first we get
to look at a lot of deals and we get
input we you know we get put in touch
with a lot of builders a lot of
sellers and you know all it ends up
being a very small world there are
only certain number of conveyancing
attorneys you know and appraisers and
things like that so you know once
you've been around for a while and
doing the kind of volume that we've
done but we get we get to look at a
lot of deals early like you said early
in that process it's funny so this is
going to be like behind the scenes
real estate 101 stories another way
that that that real estate investors
make a shit ton of money that the
average person doesn't know obviously
you're familiar with with bankruptcy
proceedings right foreclosures on
properties sure yeah at least in
California you're not allowed to not
supposed to be allowed to look at
the property right so it's it's it's
it's it's it's as is nine out of ten
out of the biggest foreclosure
purchasers have an in with with the
escrow agency so they with the people
doing the foreclosure and they pay them
a little money and 20 minutes before
the property gets because you don't know
the property addresses until like 20
minutes before it's put on auction you
get it 20 minutes early you send a team
over there they break into the house to
see the condition of the home before
the buyer actually makes a decision on
which properties to buy so like these
are the little things that happen that
only happen if you know and have access
yeah yeah in mass in mass it's um it's
a little easier the foreclosure process
is a little easier especially for us with
non on or non owner occupied homes which
is all we do business to business lending
we only lend to developers um and so uh
but yeah same exact thing like around
here the way the foreclosure process
works in mass is it actually is posted
30 days so you know the address um and
uh yeah same very typical you know the the
i'm sure that uh i don't know what
percentage of it is but more than half
of the people that show up at an auction
you know will have already if the house
is vacant you know have already been
inside you're not supposed to do that by
the way uh by the way i i spoke to seth
uh and i told him that uh that uh after
this space that i'm co-hosting with you
or speaking with that uh we might go
over there and his response was and i
quote perfect we're giving all our rwe
platforms a shill spot maybe short but
anybody can actually anybody actually
building can talk so if you guys do
want to go over there afterwards happy to
host you cool what uh is that at at the
at the top of the hour here oh it's
going on right now so if you go to
mobile media cool yeah i saw there was
like a fair amount of people like six
seven hundred people over there um yeah
we do about six to eight hundred standing
on a regular basis yeah that's awesome
um i you know it's up to you guys i'm
happy to kind of mob over there whenever
um leave you very clear you don't have
to i thought i thought i was offering a
favor there's zero zero pressure
whatsoever let's have this let's have
the space and enjoy i'm enjoying it
yeah that's the thing it's like we're
flowing here and i i also just wanted to
chip in it's funny that you mentioned the
you know buy your properties free uh you
know mls redfin all that free public
because we uh my brother and i when i was
living in colorado they would post you
know every week on thursday morning at
like 11 a.m. or something like that they
would post all of the bankruptcy all the
people that were about to go into
foreclosure on uh the local i forgot what
what website it was but you were able to
then like scrape scrape those addresses and
all the people that would buy that would that
would try to buy these houses from these
people that were about to go into foreclosure
would go around knocking on doors uh and
whoever got there first you know would
would try to like get the homeowner to
sell to them um and that that was how we
ran a business for like a year and a half
when uh back in like 2016 2017 once like
17 18 rolled around the market got really
really saturated and you weren't able to
just like buy houses off of people for
for super cheap the spreads would on them
were amazing um like 2015 2016 my my
brother's uh business partner like
mate you would always have this story that
he would tell us that he bought a house
off of someone for like a dollar and 50
cents just because of the way how how
you like structured it um because the
person was so far behind on their loans
you know he just had like the dollar and
50 cents in his pocket he paid them you
know that amount but then off obviously he
ended up like covering their back
payments and everything like that absorb
the debt yeah yeah yeah but it's just
you know it when you work the numbers
out it it just ended up being like the
the money that he had in his pocket in
that moment but um yeah that I mean once
those houses got to market or went to
auction they they weren't as valuable
right like the deal wasn't as juicy but
that also had a lot of downsides to it I
mean I've gotten attacked by dogs my
brother got a bit up by a bunch of
chihuahuas from oh and knock on people's
doors to get them to sell us their
houses like hey you so you know you're
about to get foreclosed on like you
want to sell me your house like it's a
really hard yeah but what people don't
understand is and I know it's gonna
sound weird but it's true you would
have otherwise paid for somebody else
get bit by a dog does that make sense
like you pay so someone is someone
otherwise is getting bit by that dog
and is directly or indirectly pricing
that into the profits that they make
right more indirectly but yeah by being
boots on the ground you might get your
boots bit up a little bit but I'm sure
you got a great deal at the end of the
day yeah I mean I you know all those
all those deals were worth it there was I
mean we and you get into some crazy
crazy ass situations I mean like when
you hear about hoarders like there are
some fucking hoarders out there I
remember one house specifically some
guy I got chased by a crack head with a
with a one foot screwdriver down the
street in Korea town he was living in
he was living in the elevator shaft in
the in the parking lot and I stumbled
that we both had that moment like I
didn't even I didn't expect him to be
there we were having issues with the he
he was turning off the the lighting so
he could sleep so he would cut the
electricity on the elevator shaft and I
opened it to look for like you know to
go to the switchboard and we but I see
him he got he freaks out I freak out he
pulls up his pants because he was doing
something and he had like a foot long
screwdriver that he that that's how he
broke into the parking lot and he chased
me down the street to the to the to the
to the to the police station so save
money but almost got some sort of
diseases yeah it's those situations
where you startle someone that
shouldn't be there and then they
startle you and you guys are just
like ha ha and then you end up like
like having this really awkward
situation where you know it's like
oh I don't know you know what I mean
though it's it's those aren't ideal but
they're good they're good for
they're good for storytelling for
sure and I and I like exactly what
you said fidgetals like somebody
pays you know the earlier you are in
the chain you know the less you're
gonna pay but there's there's always
trade-offs there's more risk there's
more work but but but being early
always helps it's a really good
perspective to have now looking back on
it all these years later I wish I had
that perspective on it in the meat
in the meat like in the moment because
yeah back then it was like I can't
believe I'm fucking doing what am I
doing yeah yeah you but also at the
same time you you know our our
justification mentally was like you
know we're offering these people a
way out otherwise they're and a lot of
the times you know you had it was a
mental game like working with the
client to try to get them to pick
their head up out of the sand and
realize like okay this is my like get
out of jail free card I'll take this
money like my my my debt is gonna get
paid off I'm gonna move out of the
house and get moving costs taken care
of and walk away with a little scratch
in my pocket just to get out of the
situation oh and mind you your credit
isn't about to get fucked up so like
but but there's a lot of people that
don't want to see it that way right and
they think you're like stealing from
them so it's it's a it was a tough not
to crack but it was always always a
tough balance of like obviously the
upside especially being an attorney is
in rent control areas being able to to
move out what we call legacy tenants
and you know it's looked at as as
evictions and all that but it's
evolution right the fact is rent
control isn't a market efficient method
of doing business so instead of suing
them and evicting them I go personally
to their door and be like listen I have
another building with a with another
unit we'll move you over and pay for
the movers we'll give you some nice a
chunk of change and it ends up being a
win-win the fact is if it wasn't me it
was gonna be somebody else and I think
that I go about it the most humanely
but you know turn a $400 a month
rental unit into seventeen hundred a
month you know into a yeah a bachelor
it's just business right yep for sure
they were a lot of that in in denver
proper where I was living just up the
street was section 8 housing and you
had a lot of pissed off people moving
out of there because they were you know
they had government housing I think
what you just shared is awesome to be
able to offer someone that no one's
pissed off no one's mad at the
government or mad at you know landlords
and creating this kind of stereotype
do you know new section 8 tenants are the
best tenants ever they're the happiest
most respectful tenants you could ever
ask for I can't imagine but I mean on
the on the back end they must be they
must not be the best no new section 8
tenants yeah legacy section a tenants know
they get used to it but new section a
tenants that are getting like like after I
would do a refurbish are the best tenants
they're so grateful to have a you know a
nice unit that the government helps pay
for you know all right cool yeah I think
let's let's wrap it up let's shoot over
to to the other one mad or somebody can
you can post the link before we close this
one down I'd love to have everybody who's
who's here you'll come on over to the
other one somebody can post a link let
me do let me do my spiel really quick
while I'm looking for this link so I'm
going to post on the on the shared post
up top it should be a Moby media space
yep I got it it's Moby media tokenizing
the real world there's 700 people in
there right and this wasn't planned by
the way this I literally this morning
before your space wanted to get my brain
active so I joined the captives
we really whatever the fuck his name is
space to talk about pictures like they're
they're tokenizing real they're talking
about real-world assets over there too
so oh yeah I just happened I happen to
see the Moby media space and it was
about real-world assets I was like oh
shit that's hilarious yeah so let's anyone
that's here type in forge list in the
comments all the new people especially
like we're so happy to have you here
type in forge list in the comments I'll
do a little bit of a forge list giveaway
give you guys pre public mint access when
once our mint is live and we'll announce
those later on today so comment forge list
in the comments let's get those going
otherwise I'm happy to wrap this up and
see you guys over in the Moby media space
awesome yeah hey fidgetle just thanks
again man appreciate you hopping on with
literally no notice yesterday it was that
was cool to catch up on a discord call and
then to follow up again here this morning
and and then get the invoice across over
to Moby already super appreciate it huge
props to Devor for making the connection
and you know hopefully it's the beginning
of a longer conversation I've found thank
you guys I appreciate it it's like the
mentality of it costs nothing to click a
like right I find that in this space and
and it I found it in interesting ways like
I've seen people like building stuff or I've
built stuff or started decided I had an
idea and started to build stuff and then
found out that there was competitors or
should I say there was people already
building or have built that thing but
just nobody knew about them one of the
biggest things in this space is what
usually happens is the people that have
the best products and the best ideas for
the most part certainly are building them
don't they're people with money and
business experience and they're older
usually and they don't understand the
marketing aspect that is necessary in this
space and then the young guys who have
great ideas but don't have the money or
the experience I either like the success
of executing on a business fortunately
or unfortunately understand the marketing
stuff and sell the same shit that's
already built as if it's you know as
this as if it's you know the best thing
since sliced bread so one of the things
that I've made a point of since I've been
able to build an audience and a community
and a platform is to expose I think it's
a win-win to expose quality products to
to the industry to the people that
that otherwise would have a you know
potentially not as easy easy of a job
or have to pay a whole bunch of money
to get it I think it's a win-win the
consumers get better products and the
industry grows from having exposure to
to right there's nothing to show here
there's nothing to rug here if
if everything goes as planned and you're
executing the way that you're saying
you're just giving people access to a
a revenue model a financial vertical
that that is tried and true and using
the technology to give people access to
something that they really should have
access to otherwise so happy happy to
help and happy to support especially
when that person has supported your
community non-stop so thank you Davor
appreciate it I will do a show just
because it's cheap as shit and I think
it benefits you that community is the
shimps we're launching some shit that I
would they're cheap I think they're
like 10 bucks somewhere like that they're
free we don't get any royalties from
them I don't make any money but they're
part of a community project that I'm
launching some stuff that's gonna be
pretty cool in the near future so that's
that's that's my show and happy to support
you guys shimps and that's on Eve yeah
awesome where can we find shimps they're
on open see do they like do they what's
their what they look like do we have it
might be just under our fruity land or
the two boys or the shimps might have
their own I don't recall again it was a
free launch to build community so we're
just gonna be I'm delivering some stuff
to the community so if you want to be a
part of it you can grab some or not and
just watch totally love it cool yeah if
I find a link I'll pin it to the top
here Davo would you mind would you mind
providing that link there it is thanks
Davo you are the man that's so funny
shimping ain't easy love it so good all
right cool let's talk let's hop over
into this one again huge props and the
thank you to Devor and digital really
appreciate you guys showing up and
and appreciate everybody who tuned in
we looks like we had like 40 you know
40 plus people in and then we've been
getting some good dumb some good
playbacks too so really appreciate
everybody else showing up for us
here cool it's let's make the move all
right with that being said this
shimps is up top if you guys scroll to
the right to spaces you'll find the
spaces linked to Moby media so I will
shut this down and I'll see you all
over there let's I guess I'll just
request from the forge account to get up
there sounds good I'll do my best to get
you guys up as soon as possible awesome
thank you buddy appreciate you
see you
