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Real World Assets // Bitcoin Mining // Market Talk #BTC
Recorded: July 31, 2025 Duration: 3:32:33Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion, crypto enthusiasts explored Bitcoin's recent recovery to $118,000, the implications of the Genius Act on the market, and the evolving landscape of Bitcoin mining. Key insights included the potential for altcoins to gain traction, the importance of infrastructure in the RWA industry, and the need for innovation and collaboration among Bitcoin miners and energy producers to drive economic growth.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Music Music Music
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Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Thank you. Oh all right what is going on everybody welcome to wolf happy thursday um to all the people out there
um it's good to see everyone in the crypto world really excited to jump into this conversation
uh man we're almost at the end of the week. Bitcoin's making a recovery. $118,000.
Pretty interesting stuff.
A whole lot of things going on in crypto land, obviously.
All sorts of stuff going on up with all the politicians up in D.C.
And there's been lots of conversations around that in the timeline recently.
So I'm pretty excited to see.
Get a bit of a pulse check here on where everyone's sitting at with RBAs.
I don't believe we have Ray today joining us.
I'm like 99% sure.
For some reason, I don't have 100% confirmation.
I'm like looking through the messages.
I'm like, I feel like he was, there was one of these Thursdays.
He wasn't going to make it.
So I do believe I'm jumping in for this one.
So pretty excited to jump into this conversation and see where everyone's at.
See what things people are paying attention to.
And, you know, in this place right now where we're seeing some pretty resilience,
pretty strong resilience here from Bitcoin and a lot of the assets in crypto um i imagine you know as
the sector starts to heat up more and more people are starting the altcoin conversations obviously
coming back into conversation all the time people are trying to jump back in and learn more about
the ecosystems and stuff like that and um you know rb is definitely a really interesting one
a hot one a lot of interesting
or not a lot of interesting a lot of money coming into the ecosystem as well so i know that usually
attracts retail following and so i'm very curious on what kind of things you guys think the rba
industry needs to work on the most and focus on the most as we're getting closer and closer to
more and more people getting to know and getting to use this technology and potentially you know
shifting some of their business with people like metizet, you know, for example, taking real
estate and going into the tokenization world to learn about what kind of things he can get as a
first mover there. And so I just think there's a whole lot of opportunity in this industry. And so
I want to take this space just because every now and then Ray will not be here and I get the chance
to ask some of my own questions and kind of throw the ring around the pony here. So I'll throw the mic over to Mr.
Robert Murphy,
who is in the space and some other amazing legends up here.
And also,
by the way,
before I throw it over to him,
if you haven't already,
please do retweet the space bottom right corner,
the little purple pill down there helps us out a ton.
I'm also going to pin up at the very top of the space,
Ray's weekly newsletter for our debate.
If you guys don't already subscribe to that,
highly recommend it. So you guys can don't already subscribe to that highly recommend
it so you guys can stay up to date with everything going on in rwa land but yeah without further ado
dr murphy i'll throw the mic over to you well yeah thanks for setting me up here and i hope
everyone's doing well what i've been focused on is a little bit not so much on blockchain assets
per se is uh some of you may have been on your radar, that Richard Werner was recently on Tucker Carlson's show and was talking about central banks and the connection with the
CIA and how commercial banks create money and so forth. And since there is that tie,
some of you may have seen also in the New York Times, there was a piece from Barry Eichengreen,
a prominent economist, when the Genius Act passed,
just saying, oh, this is just like free banking. And that was a terrible period in U.S. history.
So what I've been doing, you know, is my perch as a professional academic economist,
have been just doing podcast reactions and going out and doing, you know, educating the public on
just how banking per se works and the connection with stable coins and whatnot.
So I think we're going to see that narrative, you know, kick up going forward that, you know, so the quick version is I think stable coins that is a stable coin issuer is kind
of like a bank and, you know, economically speaking, not in terms of the regulations.
And I think that's fine.
In other words, yeah, this is and that's what we want it to be in the private sector.
And it's fine that the issue, the problem with banks and a lot of the stuff that Warner brought up with this Tucker Carlson interview, this nefarious, like I agree with them, but that's because they get special privileges from the government.
And so to me, it's like, yeah, the way you deal with all that is have it be in the private sector.
And that's exactly what people who are building in the blockchain world are doing.
Yeah, great, great thoughts there, Dr. Murphy.
They're hearing a lot of conversation around the idea of the public and private markets really coming together here.
And the two worlds blending, really.
And it's going to be really fascinating to watch how that transition happens and what it looks like,
especially because there are people who are very much winning the game in whichever sector that they're in they just happen to you know have been there for a while they sort of
understood the game if you will and they're doing a good job they're not going to love to see that
kind of leverage go away but i think ultimately long term it's probably the best option here
vene i'd really be curious to get some of your thoughts on this um i'm sure we've covered this
a little bit on our podcast from a little while ago, but I always love picking a brain on some of these kind of questions.
Hey, so is it worth us talking about what free banking
is and kind of digging into that a little? That is probably more
one for Dr. Murphy than for me, but I can give you the nickel summary.
So basically, the question is, where does currency come from?
And in a free banking environment, which was how Scotland ran for quite a while,
you walk up to your bank with an asset that is worth $100,000,
and they give you $100,000, and you agree that you're going to pay them back $107,000,
and that's your interest rate, and off you go with your dollars,
and the bank is the thing that's printing money.
Needless to say, the crux of that is valuation if the assets
are worth more than the bank thinks they are everything is great if the asset is worth less
than the banks think they are the asset is uh the situation is not so great and the interest rate is
whatever the bank tells you the interest rate is when you get the loan um and you know anybody
that's in crypto hears that and is like, wait, isn't that like USDT?
And, well, the answer to that is, well, kind of it depends, because the underlying thing being dollar denominated,
if you're using treasuries as the underlying, not a call clear to me that that has the same valuation problems we've got with free banking.
Can I throw back to Dr. Murphy and see what he's got to say about it?
Can I throw back to Dr. Murphy and see what he's got to say about it?
Yeah, please.
Yeah, sure.
So, again, if you want to talk about it, I can talk about it as much as you guys want.
I didn't want to hijack the thread right at the beginning.
But, yeah, it's – so that's true.
I mean, yeah, Scotland is a good example.
There's been a lot of work if people want to go look at this stuff by Larry White and George Selgin.
if people want to go look at this stuff by Larry White and George Selgin.
That's S-E-L-G-I-N.
That's S-E-L-G-I-N.
I actually debated George Selgin at the Soho Forum on this stuff
because I'm against fractional reserve banking myself.
I think it causes the boom-bust cycle.
But, yeah, the basic idea and the connection with reserve requirements and so on is,
yeah, just a standard commercial bank, you go in,
you give 1,000 green pieces of paper to the bank,
and that's in your checking account.
If they make a loan because of that, then, you know, another person in the community thinks they have some money now, too, that they can go do something with.
So that's the sense of which banking per se by granting loans, unless you're practicing 100 percent reserves, creates money in a very literal sense.
OK, and that's partly what Richard Werner was telling Tucker Carlson was blowing
Tucker's mind.
But, you know, my, my main takeaway on that was he's making, Werner was making it sound
like this was some deeply held secret that he blew the doors open on a 1991 or something.
Well, no, this is, this is standard stuff that economists have known about.
And so the, yeah, the connection with stable coins is that, yeah, people, you know, you wire from your conventional checking account over to a stable coin issue or $1,000.
And then you're walking around with $1,000 in stable coins.
You think that, you know, to the extent that the merchants and, you know, the world starts treating those things as interchangeable with $100 bills.
with $100 bills, well, then, you know, those arguably should be included in the money stock,
just like, you know, your loan or your balance with Citibank is, even though it's not literally
the same thing as $100 bills. And so I think that's true. And then, yeah, the danger is if
stablecoin issuers do fractional reserve practices, their decisions could expand or contract the money
supply. And that could lead to boom bust cycles to boom bust cycles depending on your theory of what causes macroeconomic problems.
And so again, just to come back to my original point is
throughout all my stuff, even before I got into the blockchain applications,
I was always saying that you're not going to fix that by saying to the government,
hey, you better police these guys to make sure they're honest because the last group in the world
you want to trust with that are the people, you know, running the various governments of the world or the central banks, that they're not the ones that are going to ensure integrity and financial transparency.
So that's, I think, market forces are what keep that on us. I guess the last thing I'll say here, I'll turn it back to you, is by some laments, in terms of the Genius Act, there's two problems I have with it, you know, requiring 100% reserves.
One thing is treasuries are actually not reserved, right?
In other words, treasury securities are not literally the same thing as money.
So it's a bit of a misnomer to call those reserves.
That, you know, the federal government borrowing money and then spending it, you know, that money is still in the economy.
And then some stablecoin issuer sitting on treasuries and then issue stablecoins, it's still, there still
is the double counting problem there that now there's twice as much money as people thought
originally. So it's not really a hundred percent reserves in the old school textbook economic sense.
And then, but beyond that is that I wanted to see this experiment play out, is to see if we just have, you know, quote, the wild, wild west, laissez-faire and stable, the stable coin industry.
I was curious to see over time what people insist on higher and higher reserves just, you know, as part of the product mix, like maybe a combination of yield, but also reserve ratios.
And just to see how that played out. And now we don't really get to see that
experiment if they're just kind of unilaterally saying, no, no, you got to have 100% reserves and
no yield. They're just picking that combination of product features and imposing it on people.
So we really don't know what would the market have produced.
Yeah. Okay. That's super interesting. So what about the, just to just run with this,
So what about the, just to run with this, because I think it's worth getting to the bottom of,
what about the factor about pricing?
Because my understanding is that this kind of free banking stuff usually came apart because
the banks overvalued the assets that were coming in.
And it's not particularly easy to overvalue a T-bill.
I mean, there's lots of different historical eras and things. So, you know, we,
we would have to get more specific, but my big picture is, yeah, all the historical examples that people can point to and say, oh, they tried free banking and it blew up. I agree with the
historical assessment, but when you go and look, it's, I would argue it's because the authorities gave special privileges to the banks. Like they, the banks knew if we get into trouble, then we can
just suspend what's called, what they called specie redemption, right? So the banks had notes
that the community passed around and they circulated as if they were money that basically
said, you show up to the bank, turn this in, they'll give you gold or silver coins.
And so in a normal time when there's no panic, those things circulate at par with the gold and silver coins. And so the
banks can get away with inflating. And yeah, so you're right. I mean, they may have made specific
entrepreneurial misjudgments, but in any event, like by the very, it's very nature, if confidence
ebbs, it doesn't matter if the bank made good or bad investments. Like if they're, you know, if they're overextended that they issued more notes than they have gold and silver coins in the vault, they can't fix that.
And so that's kind of like the inherent fragility of fractional reserve banking, I would argue.
And so, and again, so my point was just, I think the reason the banks historically, even in the so-called free banking era, is the last thing I'll say, even in the Scottish free banking era of its heyday, there was more than a decade where the Bank of England suspended their obligation.
Right. So that's kind of weird that we're pointing to this as this laissez-faire example when, no, for more than a decade, they literally didn't have to redeem their bank notes.
And, you know, you could try to bring them to the courts and they just wouldn't enforce it.
So I'm just saying we really don't have a clean cut experiment.
And that's what I was hoping the stable coin thing would show us.
And we could see like you're asking like, oh, you know, would they overvalue the assets
or not?
And so that's so you're right on the narrow point of misjudging the value of the collateral.
Treasuries are fairly stable.
So or no pun intended.
Granted, if they're going to have to have a bunch of reserve assets, treasuries are
less volatile than real estate.
I grant you that, but still, they're not actually money.
And so there still is this inflationary element where stablecoin issuers are adding to the
money supply, although perhaps in a less volatile way than if they were putting in all sorts
of other things in the portfolio.
Yeah, that's actually pretty interesting.
Vinay, I do want to make sure we get to some of the other speakers.
Do have a few other people here on the panel.
Colin, I saw you reacting a couple of times to when Dr. Murphy was speaking there.
I didn't know if you wanted to weigh in on this topic at all.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like maybe just zoom out sort of slightly, right? Like
the, the, the Genesis and the introduction of paper money, it was exactly what Dr. Murphy
was highlighting here, right? Which is that you would take your gold and take it to the
bank and they would give you a depository receipt. And when you're, when you think about,
you know, gold and silver, uh, excellent in terms of store of value because we can't snap
our fingers and make more of it, right? It's a limited resource. We can go on down the line. But at the end of the day,
it's a lot easier to give someone a piece of paper than it is to go to the bank, redeem that
piece of paper for the gold in the bank, and then give it to someone, right? So the genesis of paper
money was just that it was a receipt for what was based in the bank. But again, this harkens back
hundreds of years to the goldsmiths who then realized that
they had to keep ledgers on everything. And then they were able to sort of back into,
oh, well, at any given time, this was mostly in Central Europe about 500 years ago. At any given
time, 15% of my depositors are going to come ask for this, which means the other 85% is static,
which means theoretically you could go use it to lend and create some revenue for yourself.
We're now at a point where we don't need paper in the process whatsoever.
This is true for record keeping and for the tokenization of real world assets, but also for our money.
And so how then this transforms, I am a huge fan of Murray Rothbard and his piece, What Has Government Done to Our Money?
He wrote it in 1975.
You should absolutely read it if you have not.
It was downright prophetic.
And one of the main pieces, one of the main takeaways I had from it was that, yeah, in
the sort of free banking era, banks had to compete.
They had to actually compete with one another.
Currencies actually competed with one another in terms of stability. We see this now with dollar dominance and global hegemony of the US dollar.
And it's really, really fascinating.
And so I'm here for the psychological and social experiment of what happens as we move,
what feels to me like moving into more competition with the banks,
not only between one another,
but then also the assets they give us in terms of deposit.
And this is something that the Connexus team at JPMorgan
has talked about, right?
They want to use JPMcoin internally
for a bunch of different functions.
And effectively, if you're a JPMorgan customer,
if you had that, right?
I mean, this is Ecoin is Ecoin and, and,
and, uh, Mr. Robot, you know, which is kind of interesting. Uh, but yeah, I think that,
I think that we're going to see a lot of really creative, uh, as you have structuring, not only
for, you know, those of us that just need to use deposit tokens or, you know, or whatever stable
coins, whatever it might be. Uh, but also, uh, for the currencies that, you know, that they compete
with one another
and just how that all behaves.
It's really fascinating.
Yeah, absolutely.
Love that take there, Colin.
Love that take.
One of the, Mike, over to Pixel.
I believe it may be Max buying the accounts
and get some thoughts over from him
and on this particular topic,
or if you wanted to sort of expound
if there's something else on the RWA industry
that you thought maybe worth zooming into
a little bit more
as more and more interest grows in this sector yeah i i mate i'm not sure i'm as i'm as educated on sort of
free banking and money transfer as the other people here that i'm listening to to be perfectly
honest with you um i mean it's it's dead fascinating listening to everybody and how they
how they view it and talking about stuff like jp morgan with the money inside things but i mean from from a sort of customer perspective or
someone that looks at the industry from both sides obviously as i'm i'm running pixel but also
someone who loves the industry for me a point on the I'd say, is how quite complicated it is.
So many different currencies.
It was a conversation I was having.
I was trying to explain stablecoins to a date on the weekend
and what they are and what they're pegged against
and how currency works in general.
It was a mad conversation,
probably why I'm not getting a second date with her
when I'm explaining stable coins on a date but um i think just from a client perspective a user
perspective it's quite difficult when there's all these different coins out there we're not
exactly making it super easy for people to start consuming this we're not it's not i mean there's
for us it feels easy because it's second
nature i've got all these different things on the pixel platform that can accept multiple different
stable claims and blah blah blah blah blah but at the end of the day we do we do need to make it
a lot more simplified and a lot more education so that's my two pence but i didn't want to go too
in-depth like the other people because i feel like they have a lot more uh expertise and wisdom on the matter
than i was no all good man all good i appreciate it and i appreciate the take there i think that's
some good perspective actually um let me throw it over to bring it over to nebulous and getting
them into the conversation and like i said a second ago you know if you don't want to dive
super deep into that side of it if that's not your forte but there's another sector that you
think is also worth bringing
up for the conversation, I think it's also super important.
So Nebulas, I'll throw the mic over to you.
Hey, I missed a little bit of context.
I joined late.
Oh, yeah, yeah, no problem.
I'll re-enter.
So basically, the crux of the question was kind of like, hey, with all this new attention
and money flowing in, with the amount of resiliency we're seeing in the market, despite
all the macro conditions, we're seeing some decent strength from a lot of these assets in crypto.
And so as the RBA industry continues to grow and more money and interest comes in,
where are the aspects of the industry that we need to focus on and grow and give more love to,
if you will?
And so that's kind of the crush of my question.
We dove a little bit into stablecoins and monies in banks,
which I thought was really fascinating, actually, and honestly just an honor to listen to.
But there's all sorts of things that people could be paying attention to
that could be important to the conversation.
So I wanted to bring you in and see if you've got any thoughts on this.
Yeah, I think predominantly it's going to be infrastructure.
So the assumption here is that RWA is going to continue growing,
that TradFi is going to come and join and buy our
stuff and invest in things and that greater web 3 and web 2.5 retail will also get in regardless
of where you think the speculative side of web 3 that um my personal opinion is that they're
getting burnt out so they're going to be looking for more stable financial instruments to invest in that are grounded in reality.
So I think the operative word of RWAs is real, right?
I think that's incredibly important to understand.
And then the second part of that is that the infrastructure needs to exist
because people are not happy just holding things
when people are so used to leverage in one shape, form or another.
And institutions are also used to being able to collateralize and leverage some of their assets.
And the infrastructure part, I think specifically relating to the paper that was put out recently by JP Morgan regarding alternative assets
and how most fund managers don't touch them because they require a lot of micromanagement.
But blockchain efficiency allows for operational efficiency when it comes to offering these types of assets to investors.
So namely, real estate, I think, is illiquid, offers higher yield, but has a notoriously long legal process regarding how institutions can offer them to their clients.
So tokenized real estate is very scintillating, but it can't currently exist in the institutional
capacity that players like BlackRock or JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs are going to be looking at.
So the most important thing that needs to be improved is infrastructure and how data is measured and displayed publicly.
So that includes attestation, origin, and kind of distribution through all of these institutions.
And then the second part of infrastructure is just more financial instruments or financial engineering.
Because an institution looking to get crypto exposure probably wouldn't be going to
many platforms. They'll look at the handful that exists now and say, why wouldn't I just go here?
Right. And I think one of those issues is because there's a lack of infrastructure, there's also a lack of composable and interoperable products being built for
the industry.
So, you know, you look at players like Gauntlet or DGFT and what Midas is doing.
And, you know, I think you could count off one hand how many of these platforms institutions would be looking to go to.
Size and volume and TVL bring in smaller players, whether they be high net worth or more retail prosumers.
But the core problem right now is infrastructure.
Very nice. Very nice.
Appreciate you breaking that down on the infrastructure side of things.
I'm sure people have some thoughts on this.
Maybe I'll throw it over to MetaZet.
Zet, I know you're newer to the RBA world,
and obviously I probably know your answer
because you're zooming in on real estate.
But definitely want to get some of your thoughts on this.
If you have any comments on anything Nebulas just said
or any prior conversation.
Great to have you.
Yeah, definitely.
Thanks for having me.
And don't anyone worry about not being the smartest guy in the room.
I hold that title here for these discussions proudly.
But I'm happy to be here learning.
And obviously such a great conversation.
Really great direction as far as like the infrastructure
and love hearing everyone's takes and learning on all of that.
I think that's something that is really important or huge that I wanted to bring up that I think
it's kind of like recent news, if you will.
But the SEC, they launched a new initiative called Project Crypto.
I think that was just
announced and so it's a move to use it's actually a move to move all u.s financial markets on chain so
um obviously you know in light of genius and clarity acts and everything this is on the backs
of that but sec chairman paul atkins unveiled the crypto of the project the project crypto in a speech.
I think that was earlier today.
So just going back to the infrastructure and the massive changes we're going to see take place and everything.
I mean, I think that the writing is on the wall and probably a lot of people's projections are conservative, if you will.
are um conservative if you will um you know as far as going back to black rock and everything
uh you know their famous saying um is is uh you'll by 2030 you'll rent and you'll be happy
uh you know they're obviously doing a huge push to get everything on chain and you know i think
that that we're gonna just see really massive massive progression in that direction over the next
few years. And so just being here, having these conversations, I think we're really well positioned
to kind of understand what's oncoming and everything. But yeah, I'm just thrilled to
be here. And I really think that real world assets make all the sense in the world. And it's like the best use case, if you will.
So you talked about how I'm looking at it, of course, with real estate. That's my career,
my livelihood, a passion of mine. But also, I don't know if you know, many of you may not know,
I'm a musician as well for over a decade in a group that's toured the country with many of the
greatest hip-hop groups of all time. That's what brought me into the space in the first place. And
real-world assets really are the perfect fit for that, of course, where music lands and falls
in line. And, you know, friends like Violetta, I have a friend, Violetta, she's probably the
most famous crypto musician.
She sold one song last year for one Bitcoin, which was definitely made some headlines and was huge and everything. So for me, I am very interested in seeing how this develops, because I don't think it's quite mature enough where musicians know how to like quite use the technology or there's not a
good platform where it's streamlined, where everyone can just go. All of the platforms
that have existed, many of them have come and gone. So I think it's more of an over,
a greater issue like infrastructurally, like we're talking about, but that is coming where
it's going to get all figured out and everything. And same with real estate with me here, just on the backs of these regulatory clarity, the Genius Act and Clarity Act and
everything like that. We now have a lot of clarity on what they're looking to do, what qualifies as
a security. They're moving power from the SEC over to the CTF. I think that right there is pretty massive.
But there's just a lot that's happening that I think that just being here and trying to figure out where we're going to fit in.
So for me personally, with real estate, it's not quite at where people can invest if you're non-accredited here in the U.S.
It's just not really
happening yet and of course this as a realtor could be concerning um because because this
technology tokenized assets i mean this could definitely do away with the need for a lot of
realtors uh to a great extent and even furthermore why i'm here positioning myself uh to be the crypto
more why I'm here positioning myself to be the crypto, the RWA realtor, if you will, the first
and the original. And so that's why I'm looking to build a platform. So really what I am most
interested in right now is networking with different real estate organizations, RWA real
estate companies, and getting connected to help educate people
and then set them up on my website as kind of a conduit, like an affiliate link, if you will.
But really, I want to partner with some different organizations like Lofty or Property to that
extent. But yeah, it's just not quite clear yet how this will all look. There is not
real estate assets yet that are available to the average person who's non-accredited,
especially here in the US. But that doesn't mean very quickly that can't change. And I would love
to be one of the first to offer properties you know, properties and tokenize them and help find
solutions for both sellers and people who are not your average buyer who are maybe not able to buy,
but with as little as a hundred dollars, they can start investing in the truest, truest
investment of all time. But thank you for the time. And yeah, that's kind of my take.
One more real quick take, if I can. i know i'm going off a little bit but
another rwa that gets overlooked i think like a uh element of rwas that we don't talk about here
um that is maybe a little overlooked in my opinion is like nft companies if you will projects
that are building our rwa solutions. I can think of many.
The first one that comes to mind is ponds from the plague of frogs. You know, they have
making coffee. So they have a whole distribution line as well as a coffee line and a distribution
channel that's really set to take out the middleman where people can go invest and buy the coffee beans and be the
wholesaler and everything. So I think that we're going to see a lot of stuff like that that's
revolutionary. And I work with a project called Less Than Three that's done numbers on social
media and sells physical products, Web2, IRL, and everything. So you've seen Pudgy do massive
movements and with IP and everything. So I um, you know, you seen pudgy do massive movements and with IP and everything.
So I think that that's something that's really exciting. Um,
and a sector of RWAs where I think that, um,
it can be a lot of fun, but also a lot of opportunity,
even though it might be kind of shunned because of a cartoon JPEGs and so
forth. But thank you again.
Definitely appreciate you coming through is that we kick it over to
Infineo.
And then I haven't heard from Draven or Onino, I think.
I'm having some spaces issues a little bit on the UI on some of these things.
If you guys do see a hand, either shoot me a message. If you've had a hand up for forever and I haven't seen it, please do throw up a hand or something just so I know.
Or shoot me a message.
But I would love to throw the mic over to Infineo.
And also just notice that it's flying by as well.
So if you guys could help me out,
please do retweet the space.
Let's grow the space together.
And for the rest of the space,
I would like to try and get some more back and forth here
on some of these discussion points.
Let's try and keep these takes to one to two minutes.
I know we've been going over a little bit
on some of these takes.
I just think it's a really important topic
on where the industry is going.
And that's not zoned in on you or anything like that um just in general just notice we've
like halfway through the space so infineo i'll throw the mic over to you sir great thanks for
having us uh again this is jackson our vp of education at infineo um and i'll try and keep
this quick i mean with all the activity going on uh regulatory wise in the crypto space it's just
making everything so much
easier. I mean, every time you're hopping back on X or whatever you use for news, not just X,
but whatever you're using for your news, it seems that more and more people are getting excited
about tokenization. And it's a really good time to have been in the space for a little bit and
have been building, especially during the bear market. For those who aren't familiar,
have been building, especially during the bear market. For those who aren't familiar,
we at Infineo, we're a high growth fintech company. We're using blockchain and AI to power
our ecosystem to transform life insurance into an intelligent and more accessible asset class
for institutional and retail investors at scale. Right now, we're really focused on credit unions
and other nonprofits, but we're really expanding into nonprofits soon. And the goal is really to allow anyone anywhere to transform their life insurance
policy into a digital asset. And with the goal of enhancing all the benefits that are intrinsic to
life insurance policies and open those up to people globally that don't have them. A lot of people
right now, the hot topic is stablecoins, which we were
talking about earlier. And we at Infineo love that everyone is starting to pay more and more
attention to stablecoins because we really see life insurance as a potential competitor to the
US treasuries as a stablecoin balance sheet asset. So yeah, we're really just excited to be here
and thank you for having us.
And yeah, we'll continue to listen in
and add where we can.
Absolutely.
Love that take there.
I appreciate you coming through, man, as always.
I'm going to kick it over to Drivin
and then we'll throw it over to Onino.
Yeah, I'd like to just yield my time
to Dr. Murphy and Binet
to talk about banking some more. I was really enjoying that.
I hear you. I hear you. Here, let me jump over to Tony and get some of his thoughts.
Then I'm happy to jump over to the banking conversation because I agree. I think it's a really fascinating conversation.
Yeah, no, but I could listen to that forever.
But I think really the only thing that I can add, you're talking a bit about what it's going to take to move the industry to the next level.
And coming from a project that's really just focused on the retail side, not necessarily too concerned at this point with the institutions.
this point with the institutions. I think that we need to have a kind of a Robin Hood moment.
And that's to say that the UX has got to get a whole lot better, a lot more efficient,
streamlined. And I think it was Nebulous who was talking about how a lot of people are
looking at finding much more uh predictable assets like
not necessarily say stable but uh you know the average person's not going to want to come in
and start uh you know throwing money at at mean coins or throwing it at you know uh
cryptocurrencies that don't have like a track record or, you know, maybe are a little bit opaque
in knowing what's going on behind the scenes. They want to be involved with assets that they
understand and that they will have some, you know, fair amount of trust that the value is going to
continue to increase. So, you know, that's just kind of what we're looking at providing for albeit a very niche community um is a combination of that
ux that is provided by by robin hood that made them you know kind of take day trading or swing
trading or trading in general from the you know the ameritrades and the you know the those that
are you know a little bit more professional and putting
it in the hands of the average, uh, retail consumer.
So, uh, and then, you know, giving them access to actual tangible physical assets that have,
uh, you know, data behind them, behind them showing that they're a much more predictable asset as far as both value movement and, in our case, being cars.
You know that all the cars that we're tokenizing are effectively deflationary assets.
So, you know, as more are destroyed or wrecked or, you know, just kind of lost in the barns of history,
there's going to be fewer on the market.
So it kind of creates an interesting approach for us
in kind of solving some of these problems.
Definitely.
Infineo, I saw your hand shut up.
Do you want a quick comment on that?
Yeah, of course.
I definitely just want to double-click.
I love that you guys are focusing on UX, too.
I was definitely going to bring that up earlier when we were talking about what really can help drive the next revolution in RWAs will really help propel that next generation of users into RWAs.
Right now, you have to really have an understanding of blockchain.
I mean, not necessarily blockchain, but of the different wallets, how to custody your
assets, where to do that, where not to do that, what you're able to actually do regulatory-wise.
And so if we're making strides on the UX front, where it's essentially you're able to actually do regulatory wise. And so if we're making strides on the UX front
where it's essentially you're able to invest
in what you can and you're not shown anything else
and it's all functioning as blockchain behind the scene,
that's eventually where we wanna be.
And I think a perfect example of that,
not necessarily investing wise,
but just that had really perfected the UX on the front end
and having blockchain power everything on the back end
is a figure built on provenance.
And so that's one of the reasons
that we've chosen to partner with them.
And us at Infineo are really doing the same thing
that you guys are doing at Driven and Focusing,
providing a really strong user experience on the front end.
And so that's all possible thanks to our partners
over at ProvLabs.
You're the man.
If that's okay, because I also, you know, I think that it's,
I think we're only having half the conversation, if I'm being honest,
because UI UX, absolutely, without a doubt.
But to double click on the Robinhood example, right, UI UX, UI UX, could you imagine buying options from your cell phone 20 years ago?
Come on. That's actually insane. They did solve for
that problem, but there was a trade-off, which is, okay, we're also going to give people
free trades, which means we're going to sell your data to Citadel and they're going to front-run you.
Now, if you know that, that's fine.
What's the saying? If you're not paying for it, you are the product.
That's Facebook's whole business model, right?
They sell your attention to advertisers, and in exchange, you get to network with your friends.
But I think it's important as we look towards these solutions and as we think about user interface, user experience, and flows, right, are there tradeoffs?
Because there absolutely are when you're talking about, you know, when you're talking about crypto assets, right? Are there trade-offs? Because there absolutely are when you're talking
about, you know, when you're talking about crypto assets, right? If it's an ERC-20 under there
somewhere, okay, well, if you don't have a custodial solution, if it's self-custody,
the trade-off there is that you could lose it. It could get stolen and it's not coming back.
that's okay. That's a feature, not a bug, right? You're trading security for sovereignty.
That's okay. That's a feature, not a bug, right? You're trading security for sovereignty.
But I just think it's really important when we have these conversations, right? Like
Bitcoin custody is and will continue to be a huge industry because there are lots of people who
want Bitcoin exposure that do not want to custody it themselves. That's fine. My dad's like that.
I tried to convince my dad to buy Bitcoin for years and years. And then he finally did when
he realized, I was like, you know, you don't have to hold it yourself, right? He was
like, oh, and you know, I think it was coin. I think it's, I don't, it doesn't matter who it's
with Anchorage Coinbase, somebody. But, you know, I just, I think that when we're able to have sort
of that holistic conversation, I think it just builds trust. And, you know, and yeah, if you
don't want to custody an asset yourself, right, that's perfectly fine. Right. And that's just as
long as you're aware of that trade-off. Great point there, Colin. Oh, Nino, I want to custody an asset yourself right that's perfectly fine right and and that's just as long as you're aware of that trade-off great point there colin oh no i want to throw you the mic i
know we haven't heard from you yet i apologize but appreciate you for being so patient definitely
want to get you into the conversation though yeah welcome everyone packed space so definitely hard
to give everyone a mic around and i believe like kind of not trying to touch upon a genius act
because i'm way less qualified to talk about it, partly also because I'm focused on the European markets.
I believe one of the next steps for general tokenization, WWA, is us or the whole space realizing that we can't just throw everything in the same bucket.
just throw everything in the same bucket like we also for example discussing about user experience
it already lies in the word that you have to know what your user is and creating a tokenized asset
for institutions is completely different than focusing on real estate not only regulatory but
also from a user experience specifically so like i believe we should really try to look at tokenization and rwas as different
asset classes that may come or may not come on chain and all of these have different values to
different people that will eventually either invest or just use them one way or another
um and right now we're it's still too much of a buzzword where too few people really understand the values behind it because
the buzzword itself has no value it is what is being made with it and that's why i personally
really excited to see how things develop not only here in europe but also in the u.s where
you might say what you want if the regulation is good or not um but it will definitely drive things forward in one way
or another and we just have to keep people educated um be transparent and not lose inherent value that
was provided through blockchain along the way fantastic there fantastic take there and you
know and appreciate you man i just saw your message there by the way um. And then, Nebulus, I saw you have a hand,
so I'll throw the mic over to you,
and then we'd love to hear from Dr. Murphy,
see if he's got any updated thoughts,
or happy to also jump back over for a few minutes
and jump on the banking side of things as well
that Vinay and Dr. Murphy opened up with.
But, Nebulus, I see your hand.
Hey, hey, hey.
Going back a little bit,
I think the UI UX is really important for retail
but not so much for institutions i think for the most part institutions will just deal with
everything otc um because you know even to get in with them you you need to have like personal
connections because i i generally don't think institutions are really looking for what to use.
They're just being told like, oh, this person's really good at it, et cetera, et cetera.
But when it comes to like the biggest personal impact, it's going to be on retail, right?
You're going to the industry is gearing up to change how investing works.
It's putting the power of investing back in people's hands.
So I think the abstraction is really necessary um and i think that custodial wallets are becoming more and more commonplace um and this is going to be an issue on ethereum because certain assets
are linked legally on chain to you know someone's kyc so your token can still
get drained and you'd still have you know like ownership of it um because like you buy a full
house and you get drained and what you just you don't you got to give your keys to the person who
drains you it's just not going to work like that right so this is where a certain level of
centralization is absolutely necessary because it's geared towards consumer protection without kind of infringing upon, say, like general privacy or leaving you open to wrench attacks.
Right. So that that level of distinction is something that's really important to, you know, like Meadowalth.
is something that's really important to, you know, like MetaWealth.
When I was over there, custodial wallet on a mobile app,
you can deposit fiat or crypto, invest in real estate really easily, right?
And those tokens don't get drained.
So MetaWealth initially started on Ethereum,
so we were using ERC-20 tokens,
which could be drained if, you know, you didn't have self-custody and web 2 people are notorious
for being really bad at self-custody so it's a great solution but for the web 3 native who's
been in the space long enough to you know not click on random links or download random apps
they still get drained through social engineering or hacks.
So there's no middle ground unless you get like a programmable token
that like token 2022 that exists on Solano.
Or a new token standard gets introduced to the EVM chains.
So then that gets widely adopted.
And the way I see it, Chainlink's kind of doing this.
They're taking the middle ground where they're protecting the bridge
and they're protecting the data from being corrupted
as it's being transmitted.
So that's a really important piece when it comes down to it,
down to it, the usability and the protectability of the assets, because as it stands now, people
the usability and the protectability of the assets.
in crypto care that it's fast and it's cheap, but they seem to play fast and loose with
the security of the thing.
And you see this in Web2 as well.
It works until it doesn't.
And then you complain.
You don't make sure that it's secure before you use it.
As a layman, I would say.
Appreciate that perspective there, Nebulous,
and kind of expanding on that.
I wanted to throw the mic back over to Dr. Murphy,
see if he's got any comments in the last few minutes of conversation,
or if you wanted to kind of steer back a little bit
into the banking side of things,
I'm happy to kind of let you in.
But I have a couple more takes on that.
I thought it was pretty interesting at the beginning of the space.
Well, sure. Thanks everybody. And yeah,
I guess reaction that Colin praising Murray Rothbard,
I would endorse that I get, I,
I'm obviously biased because that's like my guy and I'm,
for those who don't know,
I'm part of what's called the Austrian school of economics.
And so it's like,
we're real big among like people in the financial sector, but people like in academia and stuff at Harvard
and MIT that kind of look down their noses and say, oh yeah, they're obsolete. So it
was just funny. Part of my take on the Richard Werner on Tucker was he was saying how this
was this newfangled thing that he uncovered. And I was like, no, the guys at the Mises
Institute and who knew it was Austrian, we've been saying this for 100 years, literally.
So I guess one other element, let me just mention, I'm not nearly as good as Jackson is promoting the company.
All this stuff I'm talking about, if you want to go see more, I've been covering it like, you know, on blog posts and on podcast discussions,
either solo or interview at Infineo.ai to go see this stuff for those who are listening to this right now and want to learn more. One last sort of connection I would make is a lot of people are wondering about like,
oh, are stablecoins the same thing as CBDCs? And so obviously we all know these different
definitions and what they mean. My take was, and I first said this on one of these panels,
I think like two or three weeks ago, is my concern with this stuff and the Genius Act and all that,
even though I'm against fractional reserve banking in the sense that I think it causes
the business cycle. And so you might think that, you know, I don't like government intervention at
all, but I might be okay with, well, given that they're going to do something, if they're requiring
reserve, a hundred percent reserve, my concern though, was by them saying you can't pay yield
to the customer, um, that that leaves the door open for a CBDC.
They might not even call it that.
They might just call it something else.
But down the road, that does pay interest.
Or in other words, they could say, oh, we can't trust these privately issued stable coins to pay interest
because that would just lead them to do speculative investments on their portfolio to be able to pay.
How else are they going to come up with the yield to pay you?
But here, if we're issuing it from the Federal Reserve and it's digital coin,
or, you know, they might say it's something else, we can afford to pay interest responsibly because
the Fed has the power to blah, blah, blah, blah, you know what I mean? So that's my concern with
them closing that door is, sorry, the last thing I'll say is I also think the regular, you know,
TradFi bankers had something to do with that, that this kind of protects them. Like, okay, we're not going to get put out of business in five years by stable coins
because they can't pay interest on checking accounts. Whereas we still can do that legally,
even though for all the reasons that Elizabeth Warren et al would not want stable coins to pay
interest, the same thing would apply to a regular commercial bank, but yet they don't, you know,
follow through and be consistent. Well, and Dr. Murphy, I think historically what happened with COVID, right?
The government helicoptered, airdropped people money.
Have any of you stopped to think about what that cost in terms of actually taking the
cash and sending it out through banks and custodians?
Because I guarantee you it's in the tens of millions of dollars in fees.
So there's something that scares me because it's shit out of me.
We need to do another stimulus.
And you know what?
We're going to just create an account for you at the Fed.
And also, by the way, we're saving the taxpayers $50 to $100 million
for this whatever multi-trillion dollar helicopter airdrop of cash is going to do.
And then that could
as you as you pointed out be used as a tool uh to control right i think even further in that
direction like you know what happens if we just wind up with the legal ability to pay each other
using t-bills you know like if you can use t-bills for electronic payments at that point you get
something which is kind of a super hybrid it's not not exactly a CBDC because it's on cash equivalent.
You know, it's not the same as money in a bank account where somebody else is taking the risk.
You have a guaranteed rate of return for the government.
And that would close practically all the loops because you would suddenly have T-bills in the hands of global retail.
And, you know, that basically just cuts out the middleman completely.
Very interesting times. Yeah, great point vene real quick and then i'll keep my mouth shut is right and that ties
i don't think i explicitly said it in this space the other big element with all this like why does
this genius act like make a bunch of the powerful people happy is because now the treasury just
built in potentially trillions of dollars of more demand for Treasury securities, you know, over the next 50 years.
Right. In other words, the stablecoin issuers have to now load up on treasuries.
And with the big, beautiful bill and all that, it's like, well, we're going to have a lot of new Treasury debt coming, you know, on the scene over the next few decades.
And they're sort of building in this automatic thing that they have to hold it.
And, you know, why wouldn't the US government do that, right?
Dollarization of other economies, you know, petrodollar, euro dollar, all the rest of that kind of stuff.
Dollarization of other economies has always been how the US government has subsidized its economy and particularly subsidized its lending.
You know, this sudden embrace of crypto isn't coming because they want Bitcoin to compete with the dollar.
They have a much better idea, which is the dollar eats the euro and potentially the pound.
And an environment where you've got this kind of direct sovereign conflict over exactly
what CBDC you're using on the back end or stablecoin, how you're denominating these
things, you know, all of that stuff is kind of this lightning fast replay of the currency
wars of the last 50 years, but it's being full at like hyper
math speed well and when you look at historically right what's happened to economies and to
countries when they've hyperinflated their currencies right like we've been to that party
the thing that's distinct this time is is that none of those countries had a strangle on the
world vis-a-vis global trade with their currency right the the the the
the frank and weimar germany did not have that we have that and it's one of the reasons we've
been able to export our inflation for the last 50 50 plus years yeah people the demand for dollars
for global settlement mostly the petrodollar as vinnie mentioned right people wanted oil you
needed oil to get energy and energy is directly correlated to the prosperity of your nation right so we're we're a little bit in untested waters i think because
oh i could not agree more but i mean for people that don't have the background here right you know
if you don't understand what happened in 71 when we went off the gold standard it's very hard to
understand what the relationship is between bitcoin and government you know i think one of the things that we're missing in crypto because many of the people
involved are so young is like why does something weird in 1971 affect us 1933 gold seizure what i
mean i remember when i discovered that the government had grabbed all of the gold in
america at 33 and i was like what and know, without those kind of pieces of the historical picture, it's very hard for people to understand why the White House is out there saying, hey, you can use crypto for everything.
to figure out how to fix the asset valuation problem so that we could potentially take another
crack at free banking with assets as the base after the dollar imploded, right? I mean, I looked
at the math and decided that I didn't think that Bitcoin was going to be the thing that came after
the dollar. There were a bunch of reasons for that. And so I thought, well, what if we went
back to asset backed? And at that point, the hard part is a legal definition of the assets that you
can trust enough to borrow against. So I've been kind of sliding up on the inside rail
basically building out the technology to solve the hard problem in free banking so that if we do wind
up going back to free banking we can get it right this time and you know that's kind of a devious
thing it looks like i'm just out here minting nfts for people that want to sell gold bricks
but you know actually there is a much more complicated thing under the surface which you know eight years ago was a bit weird and now it's like
oh oh and you know it's becoming a lot more legible to people
well i will say this finet like especially on that first point in the beginning you mentioned
um if you don't have the experience or haven't gone back in history to see
and see these cycles play out,
then it's going to be tough for you to contextualize where we are in the
cycle this time around.
I definitely noticed that like in these spaces, like, I mean,
you and Dr. Murphy both have had on the podcast and I took both of those
opportunities to ask extra lots of questions about the history of crypto and
all these things you guys have expertise in.
Because I agree.
I think it'd be almost impossible
if you don't know,
a bit of a breakdown,
at least a bit of a breakdown
on how things start to happen.
Because you're right.
There are all these conversations around the macro.
If we have a Bitcoin-led economy
or if we have Bitcoin-backed loans
and that's the only thing,
what does the world look like?
That's a really hard conversation to have
unless you've got some experience seeing, you know,
currency flip-flopping and stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah.
And, I mean, all of this stuff, like, you know,
I have kind of a weird perspective on this
because I was part of the Ethereum team in 14 and 15,
and it was, you know, like, it was a bunch of dudes, you know?
They were just pretty much like any kind of open source hackers um and you know it was 90 an absolutely stereotypical workforce and then
suddenly you see this thing 10 years later it's like the entire currency space is being bent by
the weight of this thing so it's not that we don't have any power to affect these kinds of things
any single one of the people on this call, you know, could be
involved in a project that 10 years from now will be throwing around trillions of dollars of assets.
You know, we're not in this thing as spectators, we're in this thing as participants,
and nobody knows what the next hit is going to be. Almost nobody could pick Vidal dollar because a winner in 2030.
Yeah, a thousand percent.
Colin, go ahead.
Well, I was just, it's kind of a meta point, but I was just, I think this is one of my favorite things about the emergence of Bitcoin.
Because it forces people to have these conversations.
Like, try this.
If you're in this room, if you're listening right now, go ask your friends to explain to you what money is. I guarantee you none of them will get it right to theft, it's incredibly intellectually stimulating for people.
And it matters.
This is the finance, personal finance in the 21st century.
We live in the world with the internet.
You have to understand this.
Like, in my opinion, it's not an option, right?
And so having a jumping off point for why we can talk about this
and why it matters and why it's applicable to you,
like, I think that's one of the coolest and most unique and interesting side points to come out of the entire crypto industry and what Satoshi Nakamoto Hishi Dei have given to the world.
Very interesting.
And I know we only have a couple minutes left here um in the space i was
going to say if any of the art of the speakers um want to throw in any final takes on this topic or
last things that audience know about i was going to say definitely throw up a hand here um before
we wrap it has been an excellent conversation um if you're in the tokenization world at all even
the slightest i highly recommend you give these folks a pure follow. And repost the space as well.
Cool to the space.
Tiger friends, you know, bottom right corner,
the little purple pill, if you enjoyed this space,
it really does help us out a ton
in getting the word out there and growing this show.
So we try and put on these shows every single week
with you guys.
Appreciate all the support as always.
Nebulous, I see you've got a hand.
We'll throw it to you for the final take.
And then we'll jump into this Bitcoin mining conversation
here in the next couple of minutes.
We've got some awesome people coming up on stage that we have been doing some speaker rotating over the next few minutes here.
So, Nebulus, I'll throw it to you.
Yeah, absolutely.
Great conversation.
Always love these spaces.
Thank you for hosting them and putting them on consistently.
I know it's a lot of work.
And, yeah, I always look forward to these.
Some of the brightest minds always here.
So I just wanted to share that if you're listening, that the real value is here.
The knowledge that people drop here on a daily basis is really going to help you either figure out what to do in crypto, like what to build or what to invest in and how to invest in a way that
isn't going to lose you a ton of money.
So really appreciate you connecting all of us together.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Appreciate you saying that, man.
Absolutely.
Guys, thank you so much for coming through these shows.
We appreciate all of you, but definitely stick around if you're in the crypto, if you're
in the Bitcoin world, if you're investing and you're looking to learn more about all the things that are going on in these industries with Bitcoin sitting at $118,000, decent recovery here.
I highly recommend you guys stick around.
I'm talking about Bitcoin mining here a little bit, Bitcoin mining stocks, hashray, all these things.
What kind of things that the industry could use more of, use less of.
I've got a few hot takes here that I've gathered from the timeline over the last few weeks.
You guys know this is my new favorite thing to do is just scroll, find funny things, screenshot them, and save them for spaces.
And then throw them at people who are smarter than me and see what happens.
And so really, really excited to jump into this conversation with you folks.
So I'm going to be sending some speaker invites.
McNally, I see you down there, brother.
I'm going to shoot you an invite. Hopefully,ony's coming through and a few other speakers as well
pretty excited to jump into this conversation so see good guys up here now see toki arstress
ozzy pedro a couple others coming through so here's sort of the hot take here so this was
something i'd read so the the conversations around um the mining stocks right and and they're kind of
talking about the market they're saying the market still misprices the mining stocks, right? And they're kind of talking about the market.
They're saying the market still misprices these mining stocks because Tradify does not
understand hash price.
And because this and also the crypto decents don't care about the balance sheets.
And so is anyone holding and modeling these companies correctly was kind of the crux of
the question.
I thought I thought it'd be really interesting because we've got some really cool people
on this panel who are keeping a real close track of the miners as well.
And so before I throw to the first person, person i do want to say big shout out um and uh
if you're to um canon if you're tracking smart plays around the bitcoin mining consider adding
canon or can to your watch list we're actually giving away an asic miner um i think we're gonna
be doing one per space we were supposed to be doing the first one today unfortunately had a
bit of a delay so next week we're gonna be starting to give away an a sigma miner every space i believe it's something
like that so don't quote me but it's going to be really really cool definitely be um looking
forward to these bitcoin mining spaces each week um i know we talked a lot about these miners
gaining is one of the ones building the hardware that powers these networks their avalon a6 have
been in the market for years um with control over the chip design and manufacturing you guys can
find tons of information at the pin post at the very top of the space
if you guys want to.
There's a ton of interest growing
in the infrastructure layer,
not just the miners.
So you definitely want to be
betting on the entire operation.
Look for understanding who benefits
from the demand from the mining capacity
as it rises across the board.
Be paying attention to all sorts of different miners.
And canons definitely want to watch
and put on just the checklist of different things you're paying attention to various you know bitcoin
proxies and stuff like that so check out the pin post at the very top of the space we'll keep the
conversation rolling here um i'll throw maybe over first to ozzy and uh get some thoughts over from
him on kind of that first hot topic there in regards to people not understanding a lot of
investors not understanding um the markets and being able to price some of these things in because they don't understand hash price.
And so I kind of wanted to throw that first question over to you. And we've got some amazing
other people on this panel. So I'm excited to get into this one. Yeah. As far as timing,
hash price, all that goes, typically when you're kind of towards the peak of a bull market, because these miners are
earning more, a lot of resellers and so forth take advantage of that. And they're going to
up the price of Bitcoin miners across the board. You'll see, you know, examples like, you know,
S17s even at one point they were used and they were going for, I don't know, a couple hundred
bucks. And then by the time the bull market came back around and they were going for i don't know a couple hundred bucks and
then by the time the bull market came back around they were selling for you know 12 1300 bucks or
more so definitely um timing your purchases around the cycle and trying to trying to pick miners up
when we're kind of in a dip anytime you got fear in the market and so forth you can actually see
asic prices drastically change within just a couple months just by the overall market sentiment.
So trying to take advantage of that, I think, is one of your biggest keys because, you know, you'll get you'll get way more, way more value for the dollar if you're a little bit patient and not just getting FOMO and just like, oh, I got a mine now. I got to set this up and rush into it.
Especially in today's climate, you got to be very, very methodical and plan everything out.
You got to really, really kind of focus on that because you can get eaten up.
If you get leveraged out and take on debt and stuff like that, that's one thing I never
recommend.
Don't be spending money you can't afford to lose because say you take out some loans
and buy some S21s at peak prices when the market's going up and we experience a rough bear market you're not
going to have money to pay those loans off you know so it's a lot of things to keep in mind i
just i'd always recommend buying when there's fear there that's always your best place yeah some
great points there aussie um by the way i just saw i've got a bunch of the other speakers up here on stage here.
So now looks like we have a bit of a full panel here.
So we may have to keep these takes to one, two, three minutes, three minutes max kind of thing.
Just because I want to make sure we get some good discussion and back and forth here.
Archery, I see your hand shot up, brother.
I flew the mic over to you.
Yeah, excellent.
I just wanted to make sure that we actually define hash price for people who might not know what that is.
Oh, Great call.
You know, it's basically for a given hash rate, it's USD for a hash rate.
So you can price it in tera hash, you can price it in petahash per day, it's how many dollars you're going to generate in USD based on the Bitcoin received by a specific amount of petahash that you have online per day.
So right now, I think it's roughly around $55 a petahash.
So if you have a whole petahash, you're going to roughly receive $55 plus or minus for every day that is operating.
And from that, you can then determine what is your power cost to run that petahash for a day.
And from that, you can determine if you're profitable or not.
So that's what they mean by petahash, or sorry, hash price.
Fabulous.
Love that breakdown there, Arceress.
Appreciate you, man.
I want to throw the mic over to McNally.
McNally, the legend behind the Bitcoin mining YouTube channel
and all the various reviews and interviews they've done, him and Anthony.
Appreciate you coming through, you guys both.
And I definitely want to get some of your thoughts on this, brother.
Yeah, I appreciate the invite.
I haven't really done a lot of these spaces, so Anthony got me all set up in here.
Anthony and I started Power Mining Analysis together about two years ago.
We work with about a dozen of the publicly traded Bitcoin mining companies. Anthony's fairly well
known for his analysis and data, and I had the McDally Money platform, so it was a pretty nice
complement together. But long story short, we've been pretty involved in the Pubco Bitcoin mining
space now for, like I say, 18, 24 months. Anthony, a little bit longer than that.
And we've seen a lot of change there. And in terms of hash price, yeah, you're right. It's
close 55, 60 right now. We saw that considerably higher before the halving. It dropped into the
high 30s post-halving. So we have seen a bit of a recovery, but it's not necessarily where we
would like it or where we had hoped to be at this point in the cycle.
And it was interesting listening to the first speaker there talk about the ASIC pricing, because last cycle we saw a tremendous spike in the price of ASICs or bringing on new hash rate.
And we've commented a few times this cycle.
We just haven't seen that.
So it's a little bit interesting.
And with the public Bitcoin miners, I think there's a lot more to the story than hash price with the HPC and AI narrative evolving here.
All right. Toki, I saw you throw in some reactions actually a couple of takes ago.
And it looks like you're pretty active in there and may have some thoughts in the last couple of takes.
So I definitely want to get you into the conversation.
Thanks, man.
No, I'm definitely excited for this one.
Man, Bitcoin mining is definitely one of those things
where it's been,
when it's like the longest thing
that anyone can do for crypto.
So congratulations, everyone who's gotten to do it.
But beyond that,
as we're continuing to explore kind of like this,
I want to say like new phase of things,
we're just not seeing the same amount of people onboarding their crypto miners anymore.
Like some people are just, they've either sold or they're just holding now and they're just done with mining because for, I'd say like, say the average person who was mining, it's just not possible anymore it's just not as financially
secure of a way for them to do it like yeah there are people who are finding ways to go and find
places in texas and another little setups and of course you you can really narrow it down if you
really want to but a lot of like the guys who are just kind of trading the markets and using
the ups and downs of the ASIC prices.
I just,
I really haven't heard them going back online or saying that they're starting up their mining again.
And I can't really blame them with all of the institutional mining companies
that are kind of coming online.
It's really hard to compete.
And I don't know,
I don't know how much value there can be as far as the home miner goes.
And I feel like when you start deleting the home miner sector, it really kind of just slows things down initially.
Let me throw the mic over to Goodguy.
Goodguy, I see your hand, brother.
Yeah, you know, I think a lot of the hash price we see with the publicly traded Bitcoin companies is misconstrued as well.
There's a lot of, I won't speak specifically about which companies, but there's been a lot of creative accounting and creative bookkeeping done as far as their cost per Bitcoin.
as far as their cost per Bitcoin.
And some of those things include subsidies that were given by the governments
or municipals to turn off their equipment,
our companies during certain periods of high capacity.
So that those subsidizations, they then carry over onto the books.
So ultimately, their operations are offline for extended periods of time.
And they're incentivized for that, which then they claim is a discount on.
There's a lot of creative things being done.
And so I see a lot of people get very caught up in the investing in Bitcoin mining companies and different kinds of Bitcoin companies. And I would just be very careful for most normal people that aren't experts in the space.
You know, we have this ability to buy the underlying asset.
We can buy the Bitcoin and put it in our cold storage.
And for most people, I think that's the right solution.
Certainly these companies, all of my clients, myself, we've made a lot of money recently on kind of the
mining the mining stock craze but we got out of them all you know back in December and January
at a pretty good peak and I think we'll see some of those realizations as far as those subsidies
and the actual costs start to make it out into the rest of the marketplace.
It's a little more complicated than just what they say their dollar cost on creation of a Bitcoin is sometimes.
So that's what I want to mention about some of the public stuff.
Love that take there.
Mags' hands shot straight out, so we'll jump over to Mags.
Yeah, so let's jump over to Mags.
How's it going?
How's it going?
It's going well.
So I actually have a question that I want to put out.
So I actually have a question that I want to put out.
If there isn't such a, I wouldn't say necessarily demand, but I'm used to seeing certain miners,
we would go from like 300 to 1,200 or like 2,000 to 12,000 in the last cycle when the bull,
when the bull within just like six months, let's say.
within just like six months, let's say.
So if that isn't happening this cycle,
but hash rate is at all time slash near all time highs,
what's happening there?
Is it the, there are just more suppliers
of miners coming out and the industry sort of,
you know, we have more access to chips.
So there's more miners.
Like what do you think you guys are
seeing? I mean, I do know that some miners, like the older miners, are going to Latam,
they're going to Africa. So I know there's that trend for buying the older miners. So they're
not being, and generally, right, like, from, let's say, like, five years ago, old miners were S9s,
the hash rate on an S9 was like 14 terahash, right? The newer models were
over 100 and now we're into the 200s. And so is it that the recycling that is going to these
far-off places is just larger hash rate that is moving to these places? Like, what are your
thoughts on, like, how do you kind of square those two parts that you're seeing between the price of miners
and hash rate thanks anthony do you want to take a stab at that
yeah yeah yeah we'll do yeah thanks for having me on the show um yeah i mean the the the hash rate
the global hash rate um you know has peaked uh you know just over a thousand and it's to be honest
really if you look at it for the last sort of last 12 months the first day of those last 12 months it was
increasing significantly but this last four or five months it started to level out a little bit
to be honest with you and the reason for that is because um a lot of the speakers said you know
bitcoin mining to be honest with you even at the price today is not a profitable business for the
majority of miners and business for the majority of
miners. And I say the majority of public miners, never mind individuals trying to access cheap
energy. These public miners have some of the cheapest energy around there. We also see that
a number of the miners aren't increasing hash rate anymore. So IREN have stuck now at 50. They've got
to their target. They're focusing now delivering all the remaining power towards HPC.
There are two miners out there that will continue.
Clean Spark have got a target at 60x a hash,
and Mara Holdings have a target at 75.
But the rest of the miners, except Hive as well,
Hive in Paraguay will continue to get to 25,
but the rest of the miners are all now focusing pretty much on HPC.
So we're not going to see these massive hash rate rises that we saw in 2024 and the early part of 2025 as we go on.
And the reason is just that, you know, the business model isn't great for Bitcoin mining.
And this is why the institutions aren't really too involved in, you know, in literally buying shares to some of these companies.
They see a different model. The HPC model is a real model that they're looking into,
more predictable. I mean, we talk constantly about the Bitcoin price. We don't know the Bitcoin price
is going to be in the future. We all hope it's going to get a lot higher. And, you know,
the chances are it will. But we don't know for certain. We don't know it's going to be in the
next hour, tomorrow, next month, next year.
And bear in mind, we've got a halving coming up in less than three years.
And that's going to reduce rewards again by 50%.
So those miners that are already struggling now, having already got access to some of the cheapest power in North America,
the cheapest power in North America, how are they going to manage for the next halving?
how are they going to manage for the next halving?
And by that time, in three years time, they're going to have to probably start spending millions
and hundreds of millions of dollars trying to replace the mining machines that they've
got at the moment to become more efficient, whereby that gives them a little bit of support
in terms of lowering the cost to mine, because there's two factors. One is the power cost,
which is really, to be honest, out of the control of the miners, unless they've got a PPA. And so
then there's a certain amount of issues around PPAs. But also the fact that you have to have
a reasonably low or reasonably good efficiency for your fleet. And we've seen some of the miners now iron at 15 joules per tera hash, clean spark close to 16, Mara just over 18, Cypher just over 18. A year ago,
you know, the average for some of the public miners was close to 35. Now we're getting down
to those low numbers. But even then, you know, we'll see from these earnings coming out in the
next month or so, we've just had Mara's yesterday.
And I would say that it's an improving set of quarterly numbers.
But it wasn't great.
I mean, you know, their net income, you know, to the uneducated person of $808 million for the quarter sounds amazing.
The market put the stock price down.
$808 million in three months as a net income. That sounds amazing. The market put the stock price down. 808 million in three months as a net income. That sounds amazing. But it was due to the fact they had 50,000 Bitcoin on the
balance sheet and the value of the Bitcoin increased. It was a non-cash increase that
they were benefiting from. If you strip that out of the income statement, you're left with a
significant loss. Now, I don't want to attribute
the fact that all their losses is because they're not doing things right. They are doing things
better. They're starting to buy their own facilities. They're starting to look at other
ways to bring in revenues, but they still have a significant amount of their business hosted.
So they're paying not just an energy fee, but a hosting fee. And it's still, you know, in terms of all the costs that you include, it's still very much not a profitable business for them.
When you start thinking about just the cash costs, if you're paying for your energy, paying for your staff, paying for your operating costs,
then, yes, the majority of these miners are making a cash flow positive business model but the key
costs that they're not including in those costs are the actual buying of the machines and buying
of the facilities those those cost hundreds of millions of dollars and they're depreciated and
that's the cost that you're supposed to apply when you're looking into this but you know they'll sell
shares in the company or raise capital through maybe a convertible or some debt, and they'll use that money to grow the company in terms of buying machines.
And it's a case of it's a bit like a hamster wheel.
Every two or three years, you're then having to rebuy the latest machines.
At the moment, yes, 21XPs are probably some of the most efficient mining machines out there.
And we're seeing those miners that are still growing and those that are repurposing their fleet are buying this latest model. They're cheaper than
2021 but they're still expensive machines to buy and the other big issue and this isn't aimed at
Mara although Mara are just one of a number of miners the stock compensation and salary packages, I believe, is starting to get more and more out of hand.
And, you know, when we consider this business is really not a significantly old business.
Public miners have only been around the oldest miners, Hive Digital, eight years old.
So a majority of the other miners may be three, four or five years old.
And some of the packages that we're seeing, I saw posts yesterday of chief execs getting over
40 million in a year for 2024, and I can go down and quote pretty much most of the mining CEOs.
It's a very, very lucrative business to be in, and that causes a problem when you're trying to
grow the company, and you're using shares to grow the company, you know you're using you know shares to grow the company and shareholders
are getting effectively diluted constantly as we see this hamster wheel go around so it is a
challenge at the moment bitcoin price at the moment i think there's probably only one or two
miners that could probably make a profit at 118 000 um iron probably one of them because they made a
profit in q1 when you take into account all the costs and i expect them to do it in q2 as well because the bitcoin price actually improved by
25 000 and there may be a couple of other miners when we see the results come out that surprise
people but but um the ones that we've had up to now um you know we're pretty much expected it's
it's it's a challenge now the argument is are they growing the companies yes and therefore
you know you're going to have some losses remember Remember the likes of Amazon and some of these other big companies have losses for years and years and years before they started to make a profit. And look where they are now. Is Bitcoin mining got that length of business in the future with all these halvings? And before you mention halvings, you've got to think of mining difficulty. That's been going up at the same rate as a halving. So, effectively... Oh, Anthony, real quick, just want to jump in.
I'm loving the take, by the way. I'm loving the breakdown. I do want to make sure we get to some of the speakers, but I do
want to give you another minute or so to wrap up the case. I just... All I'll say is
the mining difficulty is just another way of reducing production for
the miners themselves. The difficulty increases, their level of production,
and, you know, look at the last 18 months.
It looks like miners have had two
halvings rather than just the one in theory.
Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to break down there.
I haven't heard from Christopher yet, so I want to jump over to
Christopher, and then we'll hit Good Guy's hand.
I haven't heard from Bit Pedro yet
or from Bradley,
but definitely want to get those guys into the conversation
here as well.
How's it going, Christopher? Hey, it's going good. I like the question from Mags. Last time I saw her was in Sylvania,
we talked about hash rate markets. So it's interesting that we're talking about this today.
I wanted to go on like the big picture topics here. So we're touching on,
you know, if we take it a few steps back, we're talking about Bitcoin decentralization, right? Where these machines are going, where the hash rate is being put, and then another one, energy development, right?
So the whole idea is hash price. It's better. Right now it's looking better because of the USD Bitcoin prices up, but the profitability is down, right? But this leads into two big topics, right?
So the energy development
and the decentralized nature of Bitcoin.
So I think it's a good thing
that the older Bitcoin miners
are working their ways into markets
that have lower power costs,
like Africa and South America and these areas.
It's good because we're giving these places
opportunities where they've developed energy markets to mine Bitcoin and kind of realize that
big picture of what we can do with digital assets, right? So it kind of like the Bitcoin miners
leading these markets to prosperity. So I think it's very good. And it works here for the markets
that most of us here are part of, right? The USA and, you know, the big spots in Asia where they have access to big power. But there's other markets that could use that. So, you know, it's great to be part of that. You know, here at Canaan, we have the Avalon machine that's being shipped out to various parts of the world, including, you know, Texas and Georgia, these great places that have access to power so I just want to touch on that real quick that you know there there is the question of what happens with the high Bitcoin
uh minor uh commodity prices as they go up but it's a good it's a life cycle and then the energy
development so I think this is giving a focus more and more digital assets are becoming important
we're seeing the news every day the genius Genius Act, stablecoin development, and of course, the big one, Bitcoin, right?
And if hash price is down currently, there's opportunity there for players with lower cost power to get in.
And I think that's where pubcos are standing out because they have the access to capital to invest into those low power areas.
But also it's the mid caps.
They have their own advantages.
They can find those areas to work in small caps and then retail.
People don't understand there is a lot of Bitcoin mining that's on free power.
How do you define a free power?
That's a big question.
But the point is, is that's part of the Bitcoin network. So I have a colleague, we he's new on the team, and he's working with more mid cap and smaller cap. He's on the call here, Kevin Cahill, but he's been working on a lot of those type of clients that they have those strategic advantages, they're a little smaller, they're mid-cap or retail,
and they have access to the power.
And that's very important for the development of Bitcoin, right?
So I think it's a good thing.
And then going further into the talk about the hash rate probability, right?
So Bitcoin's a network.
I talked about this on a panel in Las Vegas, the hardware arms race, right? Where are all these machines going and how are we competing with HPC and these AI data centers, right?
You know, we're getting ahead of the hype, you know?
So there's something to be said about the Bitcoin cycle and the halving cycle and how we run into these supply shock periods.
the halving cycle and how we run into these supply shock periods.
And then the, you know, the nerve wrecking that comes up before having, right?
So yeah, hash price is low now, but if that liquidity moves into Bitcoin and
we see things move up as we did in the last few cycles, it's really about
getting in before that movement.
So you could almost say hash price being low right now
historically if you look at the past cycles yes it's very low but um i think it is a smart play
uh to to consider what what could be if if things keep moving forward and and the last point i wanted
to put out there is about um i was in New York for a VIP Bitcoin investor meeting,
and Anthony Poppliano was there. And I got on the mic and I talked to him about hash rate as a
national security issue, right? So, Kanan, we're publicly traded, we're on the NASDAQ,
and we're working with big players like Cypher Mining, CleanSpark, these companies that are
putting real hash rate into the USA. There's a
really big question about how does this affect national security? Because there's so many people
with Bitcoin on this side of the world. The US has it, Wall Street has it. And I think there's
another bit of value right there for Bitcoin mining. So when we're talking about where hash
price is going, we're very bullish bullish we've been in the space since
2013 we have a growing team in the us we feel like this part of the world really understands it
but i think the real question is are we supporting that decentralized nature of bitcoin
and are we helping energy development right the solar the new power plants putting new energy
hubs online i think it's you know it's a little bit more
big picture i get it but i think it's things for us to think about um you know hanging in there
until things get good right i love that take there christopher and i'm glad you jumped in here by the
way as well thank you very much yeah absolutely absolutely good guy i know you want to jump yeah
we'll jump over to you no i think we're touching on a lot of the reasons to answer Meg's question.
But if I can maybe just explain one of the other fundamental reasons I'm seeing, it's all been kind of described by the last two speakers.
In the last cycle, we were seeing the investment, get the investment scale up.
That's what we were seeing from a lot of these companies.
And it made sense.
Scale with operations creates efficiency, creates larger opportunities, creates ability to get closer to power producers, et cetera, et cetera.
This whole cycle, the equipment turnover in regards to the next question, why we haven't seen that changing of arms, I think it has mostly to do with a paradigm shift not many people are
talking about. It's going to be a massive remodeling of Bitcoin mining going forward.
And we're seeing Bitmain and some of the other companies now actually working on server rack
equipment. So these machines are going to go into the traditional server systems, the existing server systems, the systems that NVIDIA and these different companies are working meticulously with companies to produce.
And the next generation of this Bitcoin equipment is going to be far more efficient in three-stage boil-off sealed systems where the heat evaporates fluid, which then is recondensed and put back into that
system. The talk of lower power rates, the efficiencies, this is what we're seeing.
The old equipment is staying online, but it's becoming more efficient. We're dealing with a
lot of smaller scale stuff going to producers, getting that zero dollar power through creation of efficiencies through their businesses, like warming wellheads in northern Alberta, which creates a 12, 14 percent increase in the flow rate of that oil through those wellheads.
So we're talking millions and millions and millions of dollars of improvements just by having some hot water nearby.
of improvements just by having some hot water nearby.
So the previously immersion, we were taking the old equipment,
the S19s, the S21s, we were dropping that into immersion,
non-dielectric fluid, the 3M innovations.
There's a bunch of different stuff you can use.
But now we're realizing with scale and efficiencies,
the hydro tends to be the best options,
the hydro or the water blocked. So you're
putting the hashboards on pieces of metal that are touching the necessary components and then
running water channels through those. And the biggest improvement with that is density over
most of the other models. For a long time, Bitcoin mining has been machines on a shelf.
And then some engineers showed up and were like, oh my God, this is atrocious.
We need to separate the hot and cold sides.
And then they started separating hot and cold sides,
which increased efficiencies.
Then they started creating wind tunnels
and doing to positive and negative spaces.
Now we're moving over to those traditional server systems
that are highly effective, highly efficient.
And so I think a lot of the manufacturing tooling
that's switching over has to do with those 6U,
those 4U ASIC machines that are now likely
to be hitting the market here any day at scale.
So previously it was scaling.
Currently, I feel it's about the hydro
and about efficiencies primarily.
Yeah, absolutely.
Great take there. Good guy.
Bradley, would love to get some of your thoughts on the conversation.
If you got anything on what good guy said or any of the previous speakers, then we'd love to hear from Bip Pedro after.
For sure. Thanks for having me again, Wolf. I think overall, everybody's struck some significant points, but I think overall, the piece that's missing is just the sophistication of people entering the space
or who are continuing to be in the space. It's not, we've talked a lot about operations,
we've talked a lot about maybe where things are geographically located, how they're all working.
But more importantly than that, I think the ability
to look at how the evolution from buy miner, plug miner in, print Bitcoin to now buy miner,
identify the right model, identify the right power to make that model work, identify what types of
mining management we need to put in place and all these other layers that go on top of
it are really where we're focused, which is why I think earlier this year with all of the,
basically the three-letter agencies giving their blessing to the entire industry, Bitcoin,
crypto, whatever you want to call it, now you're beginning to see sophistication entering the
thought process around this, even more so than the scalability that good guy just talked about.
And even what Christopher talked about.
And I think that's the important part to look at,
is that now you actually have to come in with strategic thinking
at a level that we haven't seen before in the past.
Thanks again. Looking forward to this conversation, guys.
Yeah, absolutely.
And glad you brought that point up there, Bradley.
You know, it's well noted. BitPed pedro we'll come over to you and then i see
us has got a hand
here's some of your thoughts yes sir yes sir great um yeah so uh i think i was in a space
the other night and uh i was listening to um oh uh i'm blanking on his name, but anyways, I was listening to somebody talk
about how public miners are really focusing on profits and how they're just CEO, you know,
compensations are out of control. And he was just really railing on basically economics
around Wall Street, really driving the incentives
in the wrong place.
And how really Bitcoin mining was only going to be profitable
for those really big players that were super efficient.
And I tried to push back on that thought
because I think one of the ideas that I have about Bitcoin mining that probably needs to start working its way out through a lot of the discussion that we're having right now around power islands and power development is this idea that Bitcoin might not necessarily be just a cash flowing tool. Like
it needs to have a secondary application to go with it so that it can get through its four year
volatility cycle where maybe three or sometimes four out of the years in a cycle, they're bearish.
And so you can't just rely on cash flows in the same way that you could not just simply
rely on cash flows in a gas well.
You utilize the options market and the futures market to hedge yourself.
And so because you have this additional layer of volatility, you have this three-body problem of predicting the profitability
of a Bitcoin miner or of any particular Bitcoin miner like the actual box I mean you have death
rate you have replacement rate you have vault a price volatility and you have difficulty increase and that's completely outside of performance
right so all of these factors are pushing against you in the production of bitcoin and if you think
you can model to put it in a pnl should just wrong i mean it's just it's it's not going to be
what you think it is because there's there's too many variables moving in too many directions.
And so I want to reframe the conversation into, hey, guys, we're probably using this tool in a different way that it needs to be used.
Maybe it is a hammer for nails.
Maybe it's an ice pick.
And sure, you can use an ice pick to hammer nails
but it's not ideal um and and i say that because if you look at what bitcoin mining
when you take a step back and you look at it as an engineer and you say
um this is similar to a heat sink and instead of a heat sink we use this like a load sink then it becomes
apparent where on the network and when i say the network i mean the grid network this thing becomes
a one plus one is three because in that situation you are able to identify components of the network, of the electric grid network, that have fault, not tolerance, but they're predisposed to faults.
And you can decide to put in Bitcoin mines at those locations.
What does that do?
It creates resiliency.
It allows for that Bitcoin mine to act like a low dam. And so what's it doing? In effect, the spillway is the miner creating Bitcoin. And when the gates are open, the load is able to flow into the rest of that emergency circuit.
of that emergency circuit that's just one of the ways that we can use bitcoin mining as a utility
rather than framing it as a just a profit seeking behavior because i think one of the
biggest things that we're going to have to fight is that you're just burning energy for you know
mining um minecraft coins know, it sounds silly,
but you're going to have to get over that
for a lot of people.
Yeah, I really love that take there.
Bradley, definitely want to get you
into the conversation.
Yeah, I just, I wanted to jump in.
I think that's exactly what I mean
and BitPetro's right on it.
This morning, you know, one way is to look at it from the utility standpoint. Yeah, I just I wanted to jump in. I think that's that's exactly what I mean. And BitPetro's right on it this morning.
You know, one way is to look at it from the utility standpoint.
Another way is to look at it, what the future of Bitcoin mining will mean. And it's not necessarily about the Bitcoin mind and cashing it out, but it's about the, for example, had a great discussion this morning with a handful of experts in pools talking about, you know, in or after the next halving, you won't be focusing
your cash flow on the mining and production of coins, but you'll actually be focusing your cash
flow on the selling of block space based on the block templates and everything else that goes
along with it. I think that's where the evolution of this entire industry has come from. And that's
why I say the sophistication of what that operation looks like
and the actual cash flowing mechanism will totally depend on where your model takes you
down the road. And those are just two examples that I can talk that in the last 24 hours have
been brought up to me. And so that's why I think when we're looking at this, you know, and one
thing that good guy brought up was heat reuse.
Right. There's another application. So it's not necessarily just about minting Bitcoin anymore.
It's about what are you doing with some other piece of the workflow to capitalize on it based on the scarcity that that that asset or that piece of the manufacturing process is creating in order
to cash flow your mining operation.
Let's go.
I'm loving this.
I'm loving this.
Max, you opened up this can of worms.
So I want to throw the mic back over to you and get some of your thoughts on this.
I have a second can of worms I want to open shortly based on something Anthony said.
But I just wanted to reiterate, I totally agree about block space becoming a, I mean, block space is a scarce asset. It may not
be right now when fees are low, but it's going to become one again. So I agree there's going to be
agreements between companies, between governments, maybe even like multi-government, kind of like
we have a world trade organization, we'll have a world,
I don't know, block space trade organization. I think that's kind of where the world is heading.
And also, I agree on the heat reuse, just like an hour and a half from me,
there's a greenhouse that is going to be using Bitcoin mining for heat reuse, right?
There's pools that are contemplating within our cities using Bitcoin miners. And it's not necessarily in the mining business, but they're in the business of
lowering their fuel costs. And the can of worms that I want to lob over is, I knew exact
compensation was high, but I had no idea it was that high. And particularly if you compare it to
NVIDIA CEOs who've been outperforming,
right? I mean, Sailor, I could understand. Sailor's been outperforming markets like
head to head with NVIDIA. Sorry, I'm a little flabbergasted. How do you think
that can change considering the performance of miners? Is it shareholder activism?
Throwing it back to you guys.
McDowellie, do you want to take a stab at that?
And then I see Anthony also may have some thoughts
and then we'll come around to our source after.
I can add anything.
And if it's possible, just for a break.
Yeah, no, I appreciate it as always, man.
Yeah, so retail investors have got opportunities to vote these stock compensation awards when they come up for voting every year.
And it looks like I think Riots was voted out and Mara's was voted out for 2025 and didn't get enough support from the retail investors.
There's not enough institutional investors out there, but I mean, I think I would imagine
the institutional investors would be voting against it as well, because don't get me wrong.
I think you're quite right.
As Mike said, you know, if you're NVIDIA or Michael Sen, you delivered billions and billions
of dollars, then pay them.
Absolutely.
They're worth every money. But we're not at that point in the Bitcoin mining space at the moment.
They're worth every money.
But we're not at that point in the Bitcoin mining space at the moment.
You know, so the revenues for the quarter, you know, for a typical miner, $150 to $200 million.
And we're seeing compensation costs in those quarterly earnings of $40 to $50 million.
And it's a big cost. Now, it's not a cash cost. It's giving them effectively shares.
And it's a big cost. Now, it's not a cash cost. It's giving them effectively shares.
And yes, they have to, you know, they have to be, you know, effectively awarded shares based on how they're performing.
And the issue with miners is they're being more creative in terms of how these performances are aligned.
And, you know, we had the real bear cycle a couple of years ago when the when when miners stocks really went hit rock bottom.
And we know a few of the miners then started to say, well, let's compare it to the Russell
2000 index if our shares perform well.
And since that started that period, when they when they were in the best market, the shares
actually performed OK.
So that means that probably chances are they would get the awards.
But other than that, other miners have been even more creative we're starting to see dividends now being awarded to um to senior
teams and senior directors we're seeing bonuses um literally go out off the roof because they're
not voted in the same way stock compensation and so the miners getting really creative and and for
me it sort of sounds a bit
short-termism. It sounds like they're getting the money now, knowing that this hasn't got a long
life left for them. And it's a shame. It really is, because it's a great industry.
And, you know, I just think people have gone out there and effectively lining the pockets.
And I just think people have gone out there and effectively lining the pockets.
And I'm not saying every miner, but the vast majority are starting to use it.
And what they do then is they say, well, I'm a CEO.
How am I compared to my peers?
And then it's like the hamster wheel.
Every peer is getting paid more because the last one got an increase.
increase. So it just seems to be going out of sync. And I want to see great results and CEOs
So it just seems to be going out of sync.
and senior teams awarded for great results. Boom. Love that one. McNally, I think I got you back up
here. It looks like he dropped you off for a second, but I think we have you back. We'd love
to hear some of your thoughts on this. Yeah, sorry, I lost the connection there, but I think
Anthony hit the nail on the head there. And I'm all for people making a lot of money and great compensation
but i think it has to be proportionate to number one the company performance and number two what
the shareholders are receiving so it is a little bit frustrating and as someone who's pretty
involved in this space um just to see as anth says, the continuing increase here.
So I think management teams are pretty aware of it.
We try and bring it up in every interview we do.
We just had the CFO of Marathon on.
We posted that video today, and we actually brought up stock comp and insider selling as well was another topic that a lot of retail
was concerned about.
So I think it's a valid point.
I think it's definitely something we need to keep an eye on.
Yeah, a thousand percent.
Great points there, McNally.
Arsher, I know you had a hand up prior.
Didn't know if you had any thoughts on this particular conversation
or if you had other thoughts as well, but definitely want to get you in here.
Cool.
Yeah, I had put a hand up before the executive comp jumped up.
So I'll be quick so you guys can get back to that. But
back on the differential business patterns or business models for the miners, going back to
things like heat reuse and grid services and things like that, it creates an interesting
situation where right now you have different Bitcoin miners. They're all basically doing the same thing. But in the future, you'll have, let's say, Mara goes down heat reuse and Iron goes down grid services. power to get exposure to Bitcoin mining when one of them is doing well, one sector maybe
doing poorly, rather than the entire sector being linked together with just power and
Bitcoin.
Fantastic take there, Arsarys.
I appreciate you, man.
Let's jump over to Bradley.
I think he's got a hand that will hit good guy.
And then haven't heard too much from Toki and Ozzy.
Definitely want to hear from them as well.
Yeah, I just, I more or less had a question for Anthony and McNally.
Just curious, not being a Wall Street guy, mostly working with Main Street, but having
friends, obviously, on that side of the mining industry.
Curious how you are looking at performance-based compensation when having
these conversations and some of the creativity. And again, I'm all for people making money. I just,
I look at some of the efficiencies or the lack thereof in some of these cases,
and maybe some of the outlook of the performance and knowing that they're dealing with quarterly returns, what is the appetite or the patience for some of those delivery in terms of strategic
goals that may take more than, you know, six to 12 months, maybe it's going to take 18 to 24 months.
How does that tie into with some seeing all the pivots that are happening?
How does that tie into compensation for
those execs just curious that's actually a good uh good portion there again in that marathon
interview we talked exactly about that about how sometimes these long-term investments or decisions
specifically pivoting to ai hpc or some of these transitions these companies are going through, you're right,
they're not quarterly things. They take years to do. And sometimes, especially when you're on the
forefront of AI or HPC or whatever it is, a lot of this stuff's untested and they're kind of
breaking new ground. So I think there is a little bit of a mismatch there, I agree. And it is
difficult to pay you based on quarterly results when you're trying to deliver
maybe multi-year projects. But I think there's, as with everything in life, there's somewhere
kind of happy ground in the middle. And I think maybe we need a little bit more of a refocus on
that. Anthony, I'll pass it to you. I know, like you said, now, the one thing, it's like a balloon.
If you squeeze one part, another one expands. If you criticize too much on the stock-based comp,
then maybe they start doing bonuses or something like that.
And I know we've started to see that as well, Anthony.
Yeah, we've seen, you know, change in the way you do it.
I mean, they set these targets, you know, in advance.
And in the older days, it used to be based on things like share price.
It used to be based on EBITDA.
So it used to be based on things like share price. It used to be based on EBITDA. So it used to be based on hash rate growth.
The challenge is, you know, and I said before,
for these public miners, it's a really challenging business for them.
If you go over the last two years,
not many miners have had two positive quarters in the last two years.
That's eight quarters and maybe a couple of them have had two positive ones.
But they know there's an opportunity with the way they are releasing shares and growing the company
and then creating these rewards based on, you know,
long-term incentives. I mean, they want to keep the staff. That would be the issue. They want to
keep these senior managers and we've got to reward them for staying with the company.
And I think they should be rewarded, but I think it should be on a more reasonable basis.
Some of these CEOs, some of the big CEOs were earning, you know, $500,000 when they signed
for the company four or five years ago. And that $500,000 has now moved into 20, 30, 40 million
dollars when you add up everything they're getting in the year. And that, I think that's,
that increase is significant. And it's not just the CEO, it's there's then other senior members of the team,
you know, maybe the CFO, maybe the chairman, if the chairman is a full time worker.
Directors have a lot to say in this as well. So the independent directors of these companies,
they're the ones who are supposed to be basically ensuring that senior teams are not overpaid.
They're the ones that set, you know, they're responsible for the finance committee.
They set the, or the salary, the remuneration committee.
They set the standards.
But what companies are doing is they go out and they'll pay for an independent company
to go and research whether their CEOs or senior teams are getting paid appropriately.
And if you're paying for a company and that company comes back and says,
you're getting overpaid, what's going to happen to that company?
I think this is a scenario.
Is it independent?
I don't know.
But they'll all say we got an independent company to verify that we weren't paid enough
so we've increased the salaries.
Let's just call it what it is right like let's just be clear uh these are really shitty business models if you're paying people in executive positions in your bitcoin mining company
tens of millions of dollars right the upside is is the underlined asset. And to do that, they have to use investor money, which could be used for the underlying asset, or for equipment to purchase the underlying asset, or improvements for that underlying asset.
And it's getting pissed away.
And to Meg's question specifically, what's going to force this?
What's going to force this? Well, I don't know about you guys. Some of these people have been getting away with their shitty business models and Bitcoin public mining because of investors.
Well, I don't know about you guys.
Previously, we had the bear market. And the bear market, oh, the bear market is my favorite time in Bitcoin, guys. Go to the conferences during the bear markets. This is when the people are building.
this is when the the people are building there's no marketers there's no one in shiny suits
it's just a bunch of people talking about the cool shit they're trying to accomplish
right the improvements they're making the changes the effectiveness right the it's the best part of
the market but to anthony's point this is a very hard marketplace. The four-year cycle, which I think Satoshi kind of thought of,
at least it's built into the model now.
It's very hard for a lot of businesses, legitimate or illegitimate,
to survive that down period, that downturn, that lack in confidence.
And last cycle, we kind of saw investors holding up some of those bad business models.
And I fear that right now we're going to see things like M2 money supply creation, the U.S. dollar creation, the new money they're going to create with the CBDCs and all these other things.
all these other things, it's going to dilute the US dollar and Bitcoin will likely move
equally up with it as it has continued to this year with the new M2 money supply.
And that's going to allow these people on the books to look like they're doing a good
job for just a little bit longer.
But oh, there will be a bear market and oh, it will maybe not be under under a hundred thousand dollars but it will bleed a lot
of these bad business models as it always does and i can't wait for that just want to add just
two quick things um one is um we've started to see uh in this last sort of 12 18 months more and more
sales by by senior teams as well because they've got this amount of shares now now and don't get
me wrong i'm not i sell shares in some of the mining slots.
So, you know, I don't expect everyone to keep the shares.
But there's been some sort of like significant selling across the board for a number of the miners.
And again, it's sort of like, you know, it gets to that point where, you know,
if they're selling shares, how long do they think this is going to last for?
And the second thing I just want to say,
next Wednesday on the Power of Manning and Asks channel,
we've got one of the Wall Street guys coming on the programme.
We've got Kevin Deedy from HC Wainwright.
Now, one thing about Kevin is he doesn't hold back.
So we might get some of these type of questions
that we've heard tonight against him,
because I know that a lot of...
Bryce and myself have managed to meet a lot of the Wall Street guys during our 18 months
because we get invited to the investor days and we get to speak to them face to face.
They watch the podcast so that they know who we are.
We now know who they are.
And even a year ago, they were saying it's a real challenge, this space in Bitcoin mining.
HPC different, but this mining space is a real challenge.
And if you don't follow Matthew Siegel on Twitter,
give him a look out because he's one of the senior analysts with VanEck.
And he's done some recent tweets about this particular topic.
So have a look through what he says.
He's quite clear on how the investment community are looking at some of these
awards of stock compensation. And as I say, you know, two lots of shareholders voted against
senior stock compensation in the last few weeks for Riot and for Mara. So people are fighting back.
But then again, mining companies are being quite creative on how the voting comes through for this.
So they're changing the way the structure of the voting. So they're offering preference shares which have a higher voting power than ordinary shares.
And sometimes those can be used to get a vote through. So there's a lot of creativity out there.
And there's a lot of sort of like maybe underhand business going on in the
mining space um and people are making a lot of money in a very short space of time and it to me
it sounds like very short-termism approach to it but that's just my say i believe the majority of
the majority of the profits are gone by 2040 right that's when the the the mining fees overtake the
block subsidy on average, 2040.
So there's only maybe 15 years of runway for most large operations in this space as far as I'm concerned.
But no, you said it right, Anthony.
I had all my clients sell the first swath of mining stocks in December.
We had them all sell the rest of it in the new year because of $40 000 or 40 million dollar compensations and working the
numbers on the books and a lot of other reasons but i'll leave it there yeah great takes here
let me jump over to i haven't heard too much from uh toky and aussie so definitely want to get them
into the conversation uh also see christopher's hand we got a few minutes left here in this space
by the way so definitely if you want to throw another take throw by hand just so i don't miss
you um i want to make sure we get to everyone's takes here but toki i'll throw the
mic over to you brother what kind of things are you thinking oh man no this has been an actually
amazing conversation uh max has been able to throw some real twisters out there and i guess
one of the things i've been thinking about especially after we've seen such institutional money moving into this space.
But I'd have to say one thing that's been talked about less and less,
and I'm almost kind of thankful for it,
is kind of the meme space that was built into Bitcoin.
And I'm still kind of curious,
does anyone think that the NFTs and all the other stuff
that they decided to put onto Bitcoin.
Is that even going to play a role in any of this future stuff?
Should we even like,
is it even something to even be bothered with at this point?
And we may need to open that.
We may have to crack that specific question on the next Bitcoin mining space.
Cause I do like that question,
but I don't know if four minutes is enough time
to open up a whole new topic.
Are you sure, man?
Four minutes?
We could cover that.
I mean, it may be possible.
New markets.
Lots of new markets.
Maybe not pictures, but lots of new markets.
That leads to the maxi conversation.
It leads to all of that stuff.
That's a whole can of worms there, Toby.
Toby's trying to cause trouble.
You know exactly what's up, man. I'll'll just put out we're going to have new business models you know all this
paper bitcoin out there nobody trusts it you know how we get there we get the auditors in the big
four they give a little certification document we put that document on the Bitcoin blockchain. Boom. Audited.
Oh, and we talked about this last time.
MEV is coming for Bitcoin.
Bitcoin mining is going to get more profitable because you'll be able to front run people's DeFi transactions
and provide liquidity when there's not enough in smart contracts
by bringing it over from other places.
There's going to be more ways of making money.
The maximum extracted value
all that stuff is coming for sure and the ai is coming to bitcoin sorry what last thing like
they're going to start ai at some point like i'm seeing wallets uh being uh sorry there's there's
there's companies out there that are going to allow agents, AI agents to use Bitcoin wallets.
And I think that's going to, you know,
increase transactions too.
Like that's all coming.
So there you go.
Last thought, spicy thought.
Dang, that almost opened up another camera.
I'll stop myself and I'll write down you and Toki's last two.
So we have a couple extra for the next space.
No, you guys are amazing, really.
And by the way, before I forget,
if you guys are in the Bitcoin mining space or Bitcoin at all, definitely take a second and be sure to follow all the
speakers up here on stage. They're amazing. A lot of these folks are in and do their own shows as
well all the time. And so highly recommend you guys do that and repost the space as well. It is
recorded. So people who missed the stream, missed the space live can catch the recording. I've got
a couple minutes left here. So I want to throw in a couple last takes to Ozzy and then Christopher's hand.
And then maybe we can see if we have time for another last take or two before we jump into this next conversation covering the markets with a lot of these traders.
But Ozzy, want to get the mic back over to you.
Yeah, you know, I'm not too knowledgeable on the whole corporate side.
uh i'm i'm not too uh knowledgeable on the whole corporate side but you know one thing i can see is
uh that is an issue is just the bitcoin's blockchain is not being used you know we have
a lot of empty blocks and so um for the future moving forward if we really want to truly see
like decentralization and not just have you know bitcoin's mining hash rate be it solely at literal power providers who have free
power because i mean that's if you look at like even marathon i saw something recently where
they're recycling old hardware at a wind farm they bought like a major wind farm and they're
recycling that energy and so it's like it kind of puts a point to where only power providers
have the hash rate at some point, unless there's other
solutions brought in to where we're actually using the chain. You know, if you go back to white
paper, it's supposed to be a peer-to-peer cash system. So like paper trading and all this other
garbage off chain is, I don't think that was planned for the future. The future, I think,
was planned where more people onboard on the Bitcoin, but then actually use Bitcoin and use it on the chain. And that's, that's kind of what I think is going to keep decentralization
there for like Bitcoin mining and the hash rate. Because I mean, if not, I think we're kind of
winding down to your last couple of years before it's purely like power providers or people who
have literal free power controlling the hash rate. So, you know, does that play good for Bitcoin?
I'm not sure.
There will be innovations and clean energy
and I think a lot of benefits
that will benefit society.
But as far as decentralization goes
and being like a pure,
I guess, cypherpunk at heart type of crypto person,
that's got to be concerning to you.
So there's a lot of can of worms you can open with that,
but that's kind of my take there.
Beautifully done.
Beautifully done.
Bradley, I saw your hand shot up real quick on Ozzy's take there.
So we'll jump to you and then we'll throw it to Christopher for the final take of the show.
Yeah, I just I wanted to tie in to what Ozzy was saying. I think to point the peer to peer aspect of it is it will come.
And I think mining is one way to attract an understanding of what this monetary system actually is, because it's the one thing in Bitcoin that you can touch, feel, taste, smell.
It's physical, whereas everything else that we're talking about is software.
And you can't really realize it unless you're willing to believe in the quote unquote magic of programming, which for most of us here were experts and experienced in this.
But when you talk to the regular person who's looking at the asset class as a whole,
you have to give them something to touch, feel, see all of that, that then ties into understanding what the asset can actually do.
And I say that because when we work really hard to onboard, say, local small businesses to help them understand what this is, the best way to do it is to take them to a mining site, explain what it is that way, because they can touch, feel, see, hear, all five senses, and then point them to the computer screen to help them understand the math and the graphical and the appreciation of the asset class. And now they're deploying some sort of payment system. And those
will come to when Stripe and some of those others begin to adopt it as a potential opportunity
to take it with their already existing system. That will be the way that now you get discounts
on, say, go to the coffee shop. And instead of paying five bucks for a coffee, you're paying two bucks for the coffee because they know they're only going to get so many transactions in Bitcoin.
But they know if they hang on to that two bucks, that two bucks in 10 years will be worth.
Pick your number. Right. And I think that's part of a miner's responsibility in their local geography to try and help build that understanding that you're talking about, Ozzy.
That's just my take on it.
And I know it's a lot of work, but I also think it's one way to make sure that you backfill.
And potentially when you start selling black space and all that other stuff, you've got built-in clientele.
That's just a thought.
Let's go.
Let's go.
That was bars.
Love that, Bradley.
Yeah, we'll throw it through.
Christopher here for the final take of the show.
It's been an amazing Bitcoin mining conversation, but definitely stick around if you're in this
industry.
We're about to be talking about all things in the markets.
So definitely stick around for that show coming up next.
But Christopher, over to you.
Yeah, thank you very much.
It's a pleasure to kind of tie up things here real quick.
The conversation about transaction fees is great.
If you guys want to go out there and support Bitcoin,
go to Steak and Shake and buy a burger on the Lightning Network.
So that's a good way to do it.
I just want to remind everyone how important it is that the free world,
everywhere that supports Bitcoin and what it does getting hash rate online.
A lot of these big companies that are
putting hash rate online, they have very important jobs. If you've been through the block wars and
you were around back in that time when there were these hard forks and really evil forces in the
future, if they want to make Bitcoin into something different and what it was meant to be at the
beginning. I mean, the best way to defend against that is to put massive amounts of hash rate online, you know, allies to that cause. So I really think
it's an important role in the whole picture of this thing to get that point out, that hash rate
online is very important because, you know, it's a big world. There's a lot of people out there mining Bitcoin and the forces might not always have
the decentralized digital asset,
the beauty of Bitcoin in mind, right?
And with transaction fees and hash price,
that's what the conversation is about here.
It's unfortunate in the past cycles, if you've been around a while, another point about past cycles, you know, the big exchanges weren't such a big thing like last cycle, right?
So, like in 2017, the transaction fees were a bit higher, right?
And I'm hoping that that that I'm a real big
proponent about usage of Bitcoin. So I'm not one of those guys that said, hey, I'm not spending any
of my Bitcoin, you know, you can put it online, you can use it. And I think that'll be really
important for for getting that big message out. You know, with Canaan, when we put the ASIC
Bitcoin miner to market in 2013, we could have mined ourselves. What we did was
we decentralized our sales. We had these, the A1, A2, and A3 were sold out to different clients
around the world. So the hash rate could be spread out and there wasn't localized into one spot.
And the West right now, things are expensive over here. Labor costs are high, power costs are high.
right now, things are expensive over here.
Labor costs are high, power costs are high.
Using very sophisticated methods
of getting big amounts of hashrate online
is extremely important for everyone here
talking about Bitcoin
because we're all here for the future of this digital asset.
And I just want to make that point
that getting hashrate online on this side of the world
is extremely important.
So I think it's a big job and it's very important.
And thanks for the opportunity to talk today, everyone. Absolutely. Yeah, Christopher, thanks for coming through.
And as always, all the speakers in the Bitcoin mining world, appreciate you laying some time
with us. And also definitely, if you're tracking smart plays around Bitcoin mining,
definitely consider adding Canon, the ticker CAN to your watch list. Talked about a lot of
the miners today, but Canon is definitely one of the ones building in the hardware departments,
powering the network. Avalon A6, been in the market for a long long time now um and a lot of growing interest
here in the infrastructure layer it's not just one operation it's about really understanding
all the miners across the board and they're definitely one to watch in the bitcoin mining
world especially with bitcoin sitting here at all-time highs we're going to be talking about
here in just a second but be sure to check out the pin post the very top of the space you guys
want to find out more information about Kanan,
as well as they're going to be giving away some,
we're going to be doing some AC giveaways throughout these shows over the next few weeks.
So definitely be sure to give us a follow and stick along, get ready for these next spaces.
They're going to be epic.
Really excited to jump into these.
Going to be doing some speaker rotating right now,
get some of these traders up here on stage.
Got a couple already on here.
So I'll throw it over first to Mr. Landy, i believe was first up in the house um a few minutes ago so landy appreciate you coming through man as
always um i definitely want to get some of your thoughts on where bitcoin's that rebounded nicely
and we're sitting here just under 118 000 um again and a lot of people now are sitting here
going whoa like i thought yesterday we were going to see that move down um or uh like what uh, like what happened? And now we're moving back up for some reason. It felt like
a lot of the people in the timeline were ready for a move to happen in the last few hours
with all the stuff that was going on with Powell. Um, and then we got a whole lot of nothing.
And then Marcus went down a little bit and I started to see a good amount of fear actually
in the timeline more than I was expecting. Cause I thought that that's what we were expecting
from Mr. Powell, but I guess not. Um, I guess we were not happy about that. So definitely Landy,
I'll throw the mic over to you. I know we're gonna have a bunch of people coming through
these spaces. We'll try and keep these takes to one, two minutes at a time. I do want to have
some good discussion back and forth. I think it's a lot easier if we try and stick to those as close
possible. But Landy, over to you, sir. Hey, Cade. Great to see you, brother.
Look, man, I mean, economic numbers came in.
We had a really nice beat on GDP, 3% growth.
Some of the drivers behind that I've talked about, you know, it's the shrinking net exports number.
We did have some increased consumer spending as well. A few other areas
kind of fallen off as we kind of readjust in different areas for economic data. I personally
wasn't expecting any kind of a rate cut from Powell. I know that some were. I just didn't
see any incentive for him to do that. And today we got some more economic data that came out.
We had personal spending, personal income, and inflation data come out.
Inflation data came in as expected.
Personal income is actually up 0.1%, and then personal spending is down 0.1%.
So we still have some more data to kind of chew through,
but most of it is kind of expected based on some of the trends that we've been monitoring month to month.
So the quarterly, well, did surprise some analysts.
You know, it was really just going to come down to that net exports number.
because of it was just the elasticity of massive imports prior to the announcement and implementation of tariffs to now it's going to cool down.
So it was just how much was that going to cool down?
How much was that net exports number going to shrink?
And because it shrunk, we saw a really, really good GDP growth at 3%.
So now it's about where do we go next?
And I think that's what the market is trying to figure out, right?
So let's see what these numbers are.
Let's see what some of the preliminary numbers are month over month coming into August, right?
And then throughout the month of August.
I think this is the same thing that the Fed is looking for.
Now, we are in a very tight range for Bitcoin specifically right now. For me, the range,
you know, we had a spike down yesterday right to a level that I've been talking about, about 115,
700. I've identified that as kind of the primary range around 117 to 118 to that 115 700 number. We hit that bounced up, closed above the 117, almost close to
that 118 level. And now price is pushing down again. So in the lower term timeframes, we are
testing into that support area. If we do lose 115 700 is what I meant to say. $115,700. Then I would be looking for that wick from last week to get hunted just below $115.
It's coming in at $114,750.
If we start to see closures under there, that's where things get interesting because I think
that we resolve this consolidation and try and go for a retest of the prior zone that
we broke out of at $112 to to 109. That's kind of the
primary area. Obviously there's daily areas of interest in there around the 110 region. We're
all going to have like little modifications to that, but that's, that's where I think things,
it could get front run ahead of there. If we do see like a one shot down on high, you know,
taking out a bunch of OI in the market or something like that. But
realistically, anything in this area, I'm not very, I'm not excited yet because what this would do is
anything below the 115, 700, I'm looking for retested low swing of the low and he closes below.
There is an expansive move out of outside of this range to go and kind of target that area for me
personally. But until that actually happens, it's just range bound.
And it's a very, very, very tight range to the upside, 120 to 121.
We see close above 121.
We're getting expansion back to the high, 123 to 125.
That's the main area that I'm looking for for swings.
Any close above 125, we're either already running 128 to to 130 or that's the next bigger target on daily closes oh boy here we go got some levels
ready got some levels out there curious to see if the other traders are kind of reading the same
kind of thing or they're going a different direction i appreciate the breakdown there
landy um also big shout-out to Ostium.
Landy, do you see Ostium's account up on stage?
I swear I had them up like eight seconds ago.
You know, they went from blue to orange,
and then I saw them just a moment ago,
and I see Flo, and now Ostium's gone.
I'm just kind of freaking out.
I'm not sure if we're— I'm not totally sure we're not living in a simulation at this point,
to be honest with you, Cade.
Wolf's messing with us.
He wakes up and says, how many ways can we mess with the Wolf team today?
No, but I'm sure the Austin Mecan will jump back up here on stage in a second.
But you guys, I'm sure, have gotten used to the Austin Mecan being up here on the closest spot.
But they're also in the pin post at the top of the space.
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And they're also going to be co-hosting here in just a second.
So I'll shoot them that over here right now.
Excellent breakdown there, Landy.
Let me kick it over to Billy.
Billy, it's great to have you in a space.
Kind of want to get some of your quick thoughts on the market here
and where you're sitting with everything.
Yeah, man.
Well, first of all, i agree with landy 100 i mean
those are basically my levels too a little more aggressive on us getting uh past the the 125 mark
but all those levels perfect spot on this week i've kind of been on vacation i haven't traded i
had one trade at the beginning of the week z Zora. I got into the Zora trade.
It was a great trade, great setup.
Got in at around four and a half cents.
And we wrote her up to about eight and a half cents.
It went all the way to 10.
But it was a great trade.
So I haven't really traded that much.
Normally, I'm getting in five times a week.
And that's low to some of these guys up there
some of these guys are in like like calvin down there you know he probably got a hundred positions
in there but but no i see i i think this is all good i think we're in consolidation uh right now
again and i'm i'm you know this is my fourth or my my uh eighth year in crypto it's my uh second
full cycle.
And all the research you do for the last eight years and all the trading we've done the last eight years,
this one is like everybody's saying it's different.
And normally, and Lady Trader, I'm sure she's going to speak to this, we have been saying that come October, November, we got, we got to start back and out of our longer term
swings, you know, our long term swings because of the cycle, because of the cycle. And I'm still
of that mindset. I'm still planning on to monitor that very closely. However, there's so much going on. Uh, we in the crypto space, we typically, when we start feeling that, that FOMO that
everybody's jumping in and jumping in, that's when we typically are selling, right?
Yeah.
Those folks are typically our exit liquidity.
I just think that this is going to be a little bit longer cycle.
That's just my own worthless opinions, kind of how I'm looking at it now.
So it's interesting for all of us that have got into Bitcoin on these long swings in 2022.
You know, we went up to 123, right?
Is that going to be the top?
Is that going to be the ultimate high for this season, this cycle?
I don't know.
If I had to guess, my guess would be we're going higher.
So like my bet and my strategies, I'm keeping a close, close monitoring of it because this year is just different.
This year is just different. It just feels so different with all the mass adoption and all of the big companies coming in and all of the legacy businesses coming in, as well run yet, and I agree with that. But, guys, I mean, you had Ethereum at $600, you know, in 2022.
You had Bitcoin at $15, what was it, $15.8.
And these are the long plays.
I mean, a lot of alts.
There's a lot of alts.
Even Cardano, right?
So Cardano in 2022, these long plays, you know,
you're down in the 20-fit range and, you know, shot up over a dollar.
And if you didn't take profits on that, I don't, you know,
that's on you, right? So there's a lot of alts that I think have done well. Now, have we seen
the blow off top? Have we seen what we normally used to seeing with a bull run? No. But man,
how about the ETH right now? You know, everybody was F.ETH, right? F.ETH for a long time.
I was buying in for trading at that $1,800 range when everybody was running, right?
I made some big plays and some big bets on those.
And those trades are still open, you know?
So I think it's been a good year of trading is what I'm trying to get at.
And I think there's more good trading, both short and long left.
And with that, because I've been on vacation pretty much this week,
I'll kick it back.
And I just want to say, Cade, man, you guys, Wolf and you,
you guys do a great job.
Thumbs up.
Everybody throw a thumbs up for Cade and Wolf because, man,
they put on some fire spaces.
And I always appreciate coming up on stage with you guys.
Thanks so much, Billy.
I appreciate you saying those words, man.
Really glad we got to meet you IRL, too, at the Bitcoin conference this year.
I appreciate those words a ton.
Let me throw the mic over to Mr. OTG who's up in the house.
What's going on, OTG?
How's it going?
Yo, what a weird money day
huh yeah that's great dude oh yeah dude it's crazy but um i know that landy and and you cade
maybe have already seen this that the zbcn broke its finally broke its its pattern and uh it's
actually it's correlated with btc action and it's doing it very well uh it's
it's interesting it uh you know it's still it's you know we've been in two monster BTC shorts
today so far in the group and we've also been in two monsters EBCN shorts because it's right along
with it so you know none of us could figure out why it was so reliably against Bitcoin's action 100%.
And now I don't know why it's going with it.
And I also don't care because it's money.
So Mavia, for anyone that's not familiar, gaming platform, mobile,
has some really, really good tradable action.
I think a lot of things did right.
I'm sure a lot of people in here made a lot of money between 5 and 6 a.m. CST.
It was just raining money. The short was amazing.
That action is awesome, and it looks like we're getting blessed with a lot more of that action right now.
So it's definitely a trader's day to be alive, for sure.
Yeah, 100%, dude. That's really too bad to hear honestly i mean that sucks i mean what what
what terrible news to bring to the space that zbcn is now correlated with bitcoin i mean i thought
this was going to be our unicorn i know right i know it'll probably flip back over and uh and go
contrarian again right i mean i check it i check that chart uh i check that five minute chart
probably over 100 times a day so we're definitely not going to miss it.
Oh, my God.
It's amazing.
I love it.
Calvin, I want to throw the mic over to you,
see what kind of things you're seeing on your end of things, brother.
Let's see if Calvin's mobile.
Let's see if Calvin's at home.
How's it going?
Oh, no, dude.
Two for two, maybe three for three.
I can't even hear him. Can anybody else him no can't hear him yeah i can't hear him either he calvin's always calvin's always on the go
yeah i just i hear i hear bare footsteps uh just you know everywhere everywhere around me it's all
i can hear but i can't hear anyone speaking it's just it's strange very strange i'm not sure what's
going on here um obviously okay we'll get coming up here in just a second um let me throw the mic over to
bad price price i missed you the last few shows but glad you're well potentially you're feeling
slightly better if you're coming to these shows so it's great to have you as always thank you
yeah that sucked i was uh in bed for two days, but feeling better for sure. So because of that,
I have like kind of missed some stuff that I need to catch up on with the market.
Let's see. Overall though, I mean, I'm in a Solana short. That's really like the only trade I have open right now.
And, you know, that's doing pretty good.
Like I had a nice bounce off a support zone that I had around like 170, 171.
And, you know, bounced up to what 182 um so I was kind of kicking myself for like
missing that because usually I have like resting limit orders around uh you know support zones and
all of that so I did kind of miss that bounce but you know i mentioned in a post the other day i felt like
it was going to come back down to that zone before we see any kind of move that has like
any real legs on it um and you know we're getting down there right now it's at what like 175 or
something right now so keeping an eye on it uh the lower timeframes are starting to look a bit better.
But, you know, when I look over at stablecoin dominance,
it still looks like it wants to bounce a little more.
Let's see what else.
I was looking at the DXY.
And that also looks like it wants to run some. I also get that if you're in like
traditional markets especially if you're long if you don't have any hedges you should probably get
some hedges. I felt like you know we're probably going to fade some here and what today i mean it's not down a whole lot
today and to tell you the truth it's kind of been holding up pretty well like bitcoin bitcoin's
been holding up pretty well uh also like like landy said we've just been in a tight range the
past few weeks and right now we're kind of like around that value area low of the range which
is around 116 and some change um would not be surprised to see us go down to like
i don't know 114 or so if we do break underneath that then i would be looking at that old like value area high of the
like kind of big range that we've that price was in for a while since uh its previous all-time highs
which is around like 109 109 6 somewhere around there so those are kind of the levels i'm looking at um
yeah you know 112 to 114 i kind of expect to get hit so i will definitely be paying attention
you know to my indicators see what everything looks like if we get down there um but yeah man i mean that's pretty much it like on that last run up on soul
like i had a lot of soul because i had to buy a bunch of soul every time like bits thought crap
about soul so by the time it was all said and done i ended up having a lot of it um but i did
sell a bunch of it on this last run up, you know, started selling really like around like 190, sold all the way up to the local high, which was what?
Around like 204, 205, something like that.
And put on that head short.
So, yeah, that's up like like 300 or something on a short but that's like i said the
only uh leverage trade i have open right now so just uh letting that do its thing and hopefully
uh hopefully price solana can hold that 170 level.
If it breaks under that, I would kind of get a bit concerned.
Because it does look like a pretty decently strong level of support.
So definitely want to see that hold up.
Let me see.
What would I be looking at if that did break uh like 156 or so to 152 something like that and anything under there uh we're going down to like
140 145 something like that so yeah that's uh the main thing i'm kind of looking at right now um see if uh this
bitcoin level holds and the solana level holds other than that also i was looking at eeth eeth
um has been holding up real well up here around uh its local high so with that I'm looking at like what, 3,600, something like that to hold.
If we go under that, I'd be looking about 3,300.
But really, I want to see this 3,600 area hold up.
We saw a lot of institutional buying in ETH on this run up.
in eth on this run up and you know honestly i was kind of expecting
a bit of a harder pullback than what we've been seeing so if this thing could just continue to
consolidate chop around sideways for a little while um you know let everything kind of get
flushed out and start setting back up yeah that would be amazing yeah great points there I think for a lot
of people as well they missed some of those points a lot of the traders talk about you know retracing
back down and retesting some key support zones um and just various points of where people make big
decisions and testing those and then you know if we start to see hey we can't break through this
level then maybe we need to test out test out the uh the prior range and then maybe we can rebuild and get some strength there.
But definitely, some of those kinds of information
that you find out through these trading spaces,
I think gives you so much context into this space.
I was in a conversation yesterday at dinner with someone
just trying to explain Bitcoin a little bit in the markets,
and they just could not understand the concept
of making money as the market goes down.
They were just like, they just couldn't,
the concept of shorting and making money
or people in the institutions, you know,
manipulating the market a little bit just was a foreign concept. And I was like,
ah, I see. Okay. So it was good to know.
No money like short money, baby. No money like short money.
I should have told them that.
And look, you like, yeah, we got to have, you know, price just,
you don't want price to just continue to go straight up because it's just not healthy price action.
It's going to come down like super hard if that happens.
You need some cool off.
You need people to take profits.
You need people that miss their entries.
And you got to watch that too.
To have spots where they can jump in.
Exactly.
Exactly.
If you're watching these things, you're watching price action closely're watching yeah this consolidation is isn't bad you absolutely have to
be paying attention to those things because if you if you miss all those things then you have
you're just seeing the the chart move but you have absolutely no idea why it's reacting at all
for any reason that's pretty much as useless as it gets if you're just staring at the laptop like
that um but great points there bad price yeah okay yeah real quick i will say though like we are
kind of running out of time here for uh some of these price targets especially across
the alt market for some of these price targets to get hit you know like um people a lot of people
had like 400 for solana as like a reasonable price target you know for like this cycle uh you know
other people had moon boy you know uh price targets like a thousand all of that um remember
that xrp space that you did and like i did come in a little hot on it but well i remember the xrp
guys which you never.
Yeah, you never want to do that against the XRP army guys.
Oh, yeah.
They'll come after you.
But, yeah.
Like, they, you know, lots of people had reasonable price targets.
They were saying, like, $20 or whatever.
And I was like, look, I don't even think it's going to get to $12 this cycle.
And, like, no one liked hearing that at all,
but we're running out of time.
It's going to be interesting to see what actually does get hit.
I don't know what you're thinking about with this $12 XRP call.
I got a text message from a friend the other day,
and he's waiting for $1,000 XRP.
So I told him, I was like,
I don't know if the market mechanics would
work out for that but you can keep on dreaming with it it's okay well well landy the guy has
a point you got to think xrp isn't just going to be used as the world reserve currency for
cross-border everything it's also going to replace oxygen so every time you breathe xrp is going to
be burned and there's only going to be six XRP left in circulation.
Duh.
I mean, these are the things you really only can uncover in a wolf space, if I'll be honest.
I mean, this is true alpha from someone deeply in the trenches.
I mean, this is alpha you can't just get.
You know, you must forge down into the depths of Tartarus with OTG on Thursday afternoons and evenings,
trading GBCN to find out information like this.
So fabulous stuff there.
And great breakdown.
I want to throw it over to Calvin.
I think Calvin's back up on stage with us,
so I want to hear from him, see what his thoughts are.
How's it going, man?
Testing, testing, testing.
Yes, sir.
Oh, my.
Well, I do have some really bad news for you guys because um there are two things that are going to completely destroy this market first of all i got an alert from whale watcher
that elizabeth warren fell down so that was such huge news uh i looked at the video she fell she like barely fell over
it was the smallest fall i've ever seen in my life but the fact that it was like financial news
tells you that our our space is so upside down right now It's so so backwards The other thing is
I'm going to short everything now
I'm just telling you
She falls over
You got to go short
I mean
She was holding up the market
That wall of worry fell over
Okay
That was bad
This is unbelievable
And then
We got Michael Saylor here here raising four and a half
billion dollars to buy more and um in response as the market should it falls down because that's
not bullish so anyway uh there are a couple things where if the market can't react to good news, there's no other way to go.
I mean, it has to go down.
But yeah, in all seriousness, I know price today has been a little bit down, but we're still sideways.
I still think that on the weekly, we're exhausted and we will see 110.
If we're bullish, we will bounce off 110.
If not, then we will dip below for a while,
but we'd probably need a weekly close below 110
before anybody starts losing their minds.
So that's my take.
Wow, very nice.
You're going to be revisiting those levels there.
Interesting stuff.
Bits of wealth.
Let me throw the mic over to you
and then would love to work Lady Trader
into the conversation.
I'm sure she's got some things to share as well bits how's it going brother
hey what's up guys so yeah i mean similar to like uh what calvin is seeing i guess i'm gonna
follow along in that um in that kind of theme here so i shared a bitcoin over gold chart a
little while ago right and you guys know that i've been tracking this bitcoin over gold um for a good while now and it's kind of like the compass that i'm currently
using and um i i'm i've got a very clearly marked uh level on there and if you guys go look i think
i pinned it at the top uh yep this is the first one if you scroll all the way over to the right
it is up there.
And I think I put it, I know I put it in the comments as well.
Um, but there is a level on, uh, on that Bitcoin over gold chart that, um, I'm, I'm very, uh,
very interested to see how, how that's going to move here.
Um, coming up this, um, you you know it would start to kind of show um
why is it not showing on my chart hold on here guys uh show a change here in this structure for
this chart um you know and the interesting part is it's kind of a rejection off like the midline
of a larger channel on the sending channel that um that we've been in
and we've been forming here um since the top in um in in march of last year in 2024 and then we
kind of gave it the bottom in um in september of uh of last year as well and uh since then we came
up and we touched the top of that channel again we've touched the bottom and we're right at the midline of that larger channel um it'll be interesting i typically
want to use these um these fib channels a rejection off the midline usually will mean that you're
coming back down all the way to the bottom of that channel one more time it's rarely do you
kind of reject and then and then try and reclaim that usually a rejection
off that midline does send you back down um or at least quite a bit down at least to those next
fib levels if it doesn't go all the way to the to the bottom line but um i'm going to be watching
this um the other thing is there'll be a clear change in the structure there if we break below
that level that i've got marked um i'd suspect at that point you
know you're going to come down and you know there's a there's a probability that you could
come down and kind of uh maybe even test the the the june lows if it's got enough speed there so
and i don't know you know it's it's an interesting chart i i don't know where it's going to go
necessarily but um i do know that if we did get a rejection from here and it does move to the to that lower channel uh area then you start
zooming out and you have to start kind of questioning well what's what's actually being
printed here on that higher time frame um certainly would look a lot like a retail head and shoulder
type pattern um you know we'll see why it'll it'll
have to be something that we're just going to kind of monitor and watch so it will be interesting
i've yet to correlate it with um like what price levels that would look like on the usd pair for
for bitcoin um but um yeah i'll definitely be watching that i'm if i'm just looking at btc usd and not
looking at the gold pairing at all then um you know it's kind of the same levels these guys have
talked about um you know it does look like we're going to break down from this range that we've
been in more than likely um i'd like to see you for, for a confirmation and for a trade from there, I'd like to see it break down and then come back up and give a back test.
Um, uh, I actually traded long off of that dip.
Um, yesterday, I believe is when it was.
Yeah.
Yesterday, yesterday evening, I think, or, uh, or was it the day before?
I don't know.
I've got my time all screwed up, but, um, I did manage to get long off of, um, like
one 15, eight or something like that
um but i did close that out already and um i do think it makes sense for a move lower um you know
like that the first levels that people are watching are kind of that 112 113 but um honestly i think
even uh 111 110 it just looks very very clean like a like a very clear place for price to move towards.
We'll see if that's the case.
But yeah, stablecoin dominance has kind of been the key to that, which is why I was doing like daily updates on it.
I think I was doing two updates a day to that stablecoin dominance chart, actually.
So and it's all on my page.
You can go in there.
You can look at it full thread with the update just about every day a couple times a day uh with uh how that was moving and um
yeah so far it's kind of still just hanging out there but it does look like it's wanting to
potentially go higher um before it goes lower um and then on that chart if you zoom out to like a
weekly time from on that stable and i'm gonna start if it goes high enough and it starts to change the trend, this would be the first, you know, macro.
Higher low on stable coin dominance as well on a weekly time frame.
So that could get interesting.
It's got some work to do before that's the case.
But but if it did, then something's changing on here for the first time since basically since the
beginning of 2024, where it's really been in this very clear range here. And I'm using the,
when I say stablecoin dominance, I'm using USDT plus USDC dominance combined.
I think I've spoken to this before, but if you're just looking at Tether dominance, in
my opinion, you're going to miss out on quite a bit of the data.
I mean, number one, Tether used to have 80%, 90% dominance as it was really the only big stablecoin, right? You've had, you know, BUSD
and a couple others, but it was really tethered. And USDC has very quickly taken market share from
tether. So sometimes you might see tether dominance dropping, and it could just be a result of a lot of
USDC entering circulation, which will often is that it's versus the other
way around like how often is it uh specifically just one stable coin just losing to another
versus like just as an oscillator versus both of them coming down like in your experience watching
and keeping track of this yeah it's hard to say man because it's all it's all dependent on like
which treasury is minting when and it depends on largely like market participants you know if
the reason you're seeing you know tether dominance go from like 80 90 down to closer to like 60
is more and more people are using usdc today than they were say you know four years ago or whatever
so um if that continues to be the trend and people continue to prefer USDC and that keeps growing, then tether dominance is going to keep decreasing over time.
And it becomes a less reliable indicator if you're only using tether dominance to try and gauge like risk on, risk off or, you know, like how we use it, which is basically are people stabling up or are they holding BTC?
Are they holding ETH? Right. So yeah,
I just think it leaves a lot of room for false signals. If you're using just tether dominance,
either use the one that there's a stables.c.d that TradingView offers. Although I will say
for some reason over like the last week, it's wiped out all prior history, except for like
maybe a few weeks ago. So I don't know what
happened there. They, they may have thrown in a newer stable into the mix. I'm actually curious
if they haven't thrown in the world Liberty Phi, a USD one or something like that. And therefore
it eliminated, um, a lot of that older history, but, um, yeah, currently it's, it only shows a
little bit. If you zoom out, it's got a few weeks of data or whatever. So what I've been doing over the last two years
is I basically just use,
I manually combine Tether dominance
and USDC dominance on a chart.
And that's what I'm using for stablecoin.
Beautiful. Very nice.
Yeah, definitely guys.
If that was interesting to you,
Bits definitely does keep track of that.
And he's usually one of the people who is up here
talking about stablecoins, which is a growing topic here, by the way, for crypto because of the amount of just inflows we're seeing into the stablecoins industry.
Ladies and creator, I definitely want to bring you into the conversation.
It's great to have you in here.
What are your thoughts on everything going on?
It's good to have you.
Thank you so much.
So I'm watching 112.5 on Bitcoin.
That's a level that I've shared before as well. And so that's one level that I'm watching 112.5 on Bitcoin. That's a level that I've shared before as well.
And so that's one level that I'm watching.
What I'm also watching today is the monthly close to see how that plays out.
And we definitely want monthly to close green.
If it becomes a doji type scenario here, that's not going to be good news because we are super close to the end of the bull run.
that's not going to be good news because we are super close to the end of the bull run
and so if we if it throws a doji for whatever reason then you know that it's probably not
going to go above 125k in the long run and then it's just going to chop here until it just runs
out and maybe we will be lucky enough to get a um get an all season and ethereum would make a new
high as a result of that if bitcoin is chopping
so just watching it very carefully you know these next couple of months are going to be super
important i am also uh watching crypto gaming right now there's a lot of stuff happening
the gala chain just getting a ton of hate right now uh from people and then a ton of love from
people who support it of course I like Gala regardless
of what people say at least their team has delivered some results for the investors
and they are listed on centralized exchanges so definitely have respect for that team and then
the other thing Sharpe now is a crypto gaming project they just abandoned avix and went on um gala chain and that was a big topic
who was that sorry uh shrapnel got it yeah and they went they uh they abandoned avalanche and
went to gala chain and that's a big topic of discussion right now in web3 community again
a lot of people are just hating it and a lot of people are loving it
but there are always you know there are a lot of kols who are talking about it positively apparently
they're all paid kols who have not disclosed their partnerships and now the the whole it's like
it can be very toxic you know if you look at web3 gaming it's like one of the most toxic sector out
there and like if you are if you are into entertainment and enjoy something like that,
then you just have to go check it out.
I have to block and tell Twitter not to show me those things.
But it is pretty crazy the way that some people act when these things happen.
It's like, you know, we are here for decentralization.
Just let people do what they want to do, you know,
as long as they're not, you know, scamming people.
But that's what's happening.
So it's always like you always see these teams attacking one another
and it's like, whoa, what's happening here?
But good news for Gala.
Hopefully, Shrapnel can also do well by going to Gala Chain.
Time will tell because it's, again, too late in the game right now.
And so we just have the next couple of months.
If they can survive that, that would be great.
Star Atlas, I did add a little bit of Star Atlas in the last couple of days.
I feel like it could, if Web3 Crypto Gaming is going to come back,
then we got to start looking at opportunities right now.
This would be like blood in the market that you want to be you know diversifying into just a little bit
you don't want to go too big because it's a very risky sector right now crypto gaming is like if i
was to say the most bearish sector right now it is crypto gaming no one is going near it right now
exchanges are super scared to list any gaming projects because they've seen what's
happening there and so just just very bearish sector overall but i did diversify a little bit
into into some of these plays uh super late in the game because i feel like if markets if you
are about to get an all season then maybe some of these plays could do a good number of course you
have to also lay out technicals a little bit and make sure that technicals do support your position and it's not just like blind aping into everything
so just being cautious there for sure uh also as you as you all know uh gunzilla uh guns token
which is also um oh my god what is it called otg over the grid it's a pretty big project and that's a crypto
gaming project they finally uh they are moving to solana as well from avalanche so of course
avalanche community has a lot of small creators that they onboard right because it's it's the
cheapest for them from the marketing perspective not much of a buying power that's why we are not
really seeing avalanche move as much and uh but
basically um they are abandoning avalanche going to solana so solana gaming gala gaming those are
definitely uh narratives to kind of keep an eye on uh kate tuck who is one of our uh speakers
he told told me about this this coin called troll it's a meme coin i actually got into it and um it it did crash a
little bit from my position from my entry and ktech sold all of his position he dumped it on me
moved on and now i have um tripled my position i think or quadruple my position something like that
so i'm in profit right now and ktech isTech is out. K-Tech rugged me. Yes. He told me about Troll.
He rugged me.
And yeah, I don't, I don't, I need to have a conversation with him about that.
But yeah, I'm in profit.
So I'm happy.
I'm grateful that he told me about it, but I was holding the bag while he was selling
his position.
Not a good idea.
I'm going to have a chat with him about it.
But yeah, it's just, just, just how a crypto goes.
Right.
But super excited about AI plays, of course, and everything else that i mentioned yeah thanks for having me yeah last
time i sold and lady trailer held i i very much regretted that it's still my biggest it's probably
probably my one or two biggest um misses of my life on a move there like i can't i don't think
i'll ever forgive myself for missing out on political meme
coin season.
And,
lady trader told me about,
Brando or something.
And I just,
I just didn't hold long enough.
I just did not have that conviction.
And I was like,
I don't know if lady trader got that conviction like that.
And then,
I sold early and everyone got rich and me and Kayla did not.
Cause I believe lady trader,
me and Kayla sat out of that trade, I think it was.
And we're not happy, folks.
So, yeah, let that be a lesson, you know.
I was not even deep in the trenches.
I'm not sure why I thought I knew things.
But anyways, you know, OTG, I'll throw the mic over to you.
You know, I'm sure you and I both missed on some crazy opportunities.
But the good thing is, crypto is pretty much unlimited in terms of things to find if you're willing to search for them.
Yeah, and it never sleeps, and it'll never stop, and it'll always be here, and it'll always be profitable if you know how to trade it.
So I had a question for Lady Trader, though, talking about Godzilla.
talking about uh gunzilla that do you think that this is going to be you know because i think we
can all agree that that is the most hyped uh crypto game i think to ever come out uh and you
know it is it had more marketing more aols in the crypto space and in the irl world gaming streamers
youtubers um you know everybody was talking about that game.
And it literally, when it came out, it, you know, and of course it fell on, you know, less than favorable market conditions, of course, but it came out and was a giant flop.
It wasn't, you know, a total crash, but it was very lackluster for the amount of money and time and just KOL energy and marketing and Hollywood.
They got a Hollywood director, Neal's the thing and all of this stuff.
And it's just for it to turn into a giant nothing burger was very surprising.
And I think it had a lot to do with the fact that it wasn't hooked into the blockchain, right?
the blockchain, right? It just came out in its beta form. But moving over to Solana,
It just came out in its beta form.
my first impression to that was, you know, holy crap, this is going to be monster, not just for
Godzilla games and the off the grid game itself, but for Solana gaming as a whole,
because they've already got their own thing going, right? With the little game boys that
they're putting out the whole thing, they're're not stopping but this game is is actually really big it's it's crazy like i i happen
to be downloading a game for my son on his ps5 and it and it just flashed across the screen an ad for
this game i'm thinking holy crap if they can get this damn thing on chain fast to get the token
actually um moving on chain i mean the amount of money people could make sitting at home it's going
to be like axi infinity in the philippines all over again yeah that's that's important i think
they did make some mistakes of course launching and launching on avalanche um i don't think that
that should have happened
they should have gone with a chain that has most activity right now and so um there are still like
there are some people that use avalanche but if you look at it people who are talking about avalanche
are all doing that their ambassadors those are you know just just basically their ambassadors
the small creators with you know not not not a ton of buying power there.
And so you definitely wanna reach out where,
or you wanna launch on a chain
that has a ton of, a lot more activity, right?
You wanna launch on maybe BNB chain,
or you may wanna launch on Solana.
Those are the two best ones right now,
if you wanna attract a lot more people
and keep a very healthy token.
I actually ended up requesting a refund.
I was very fortunate to be able to get it
back uh and it's kind of funny because it was i invested in it in 2021 and uh it's it's been a
long time right i could have made some money with it um otherwise but i requested a refund because
my vesting doesn't start until april of next year that's that's basically how it's going to be and
next year it's going to be. And next year, it's going
to be a barrier. And so I need to, I wanted to get it back. And I'm like, you know what, I just
don't want to be exposed to it anymore. Just get the refund, move on with my life and put that
money somewhere else. And maybe next bull run, you know, definitely we'll be watching. The thing
about this one is though, it's going to have a very long vesting and who knows if they're going
to even change vesting on people, right?
This is another thing that teams do randomly is change vesting.
And so if they do decide to just keep the vesting the way it is and give people their tokens starting next year, then there could be a play.
But I'm saying like three years down the line, right?
2028, maybe.
And so what my gameplay would be is put in a little bit of money we call it
it's like a fun little term that uh steve morrow use uses quite a bit it's like uh getting a foot
soldier in um you know at when you're dcaing so i'm gonna be definitely at the end of next year
you know maybe in september or october i'll put in a little bit of money into that and then hold
until you know then maybe d DC again in 2028.
And so that's going to be my game plan for that because it's going to be, it's going to have a very long term vesting there.
So, but yeah, they, we had like a lot of people had a lot of hopes with, with Godzilla that they were going to change things and, you know, Avalanche is going to be big and all of those promises that, that throwing around you know that were being thrown around it just none of that happened so um just very interesting how crypto market
crypto markets move and i think that was like also the last hope right of uh crypto gaming that this
this could really kick off the gaming bull run and it did not um so that's that's another that's
another thing too so now it's all about all right what's coming up next what could be the next big thing that could potentially revive crypto gaming it needs a lot of oxygen right
now it's like you know we are at the end of the rope there so the the other thing that's very
dangerous is if you look at a lot of gaming creators is that they're not diversified enough
like for me i i'm not really tied to a particular sector and I'm not particularly tied to any specific L1s or anything like this. I'm very well diversified, whether it's content or anything else. Of course, I work very closely with teams that are in AI sector, but it doesn't mean I'm ignoring all the other sectors, right? You have to be well diversified. You can't be just, you know, posting Web3 Gaming is everything. You know know you just post about it every single day you just and your community keeps losing money because they are just listening to you putting their money
into just crypto gaming and so just have to be cautious with diversification that's the biggest
lesson that i've seen working out this time like and this is a lesson that is so um near and dear
to my heart irl like you have to diversify in everything that you have in your life like diversifying every single aspect of your life no matter what it is like you know whether you are
looking at career opportunities whether you're looking at content whether you're looking at
different crypto projects where whether it's your investment your skills anything like you have to
diversify if you're not diversified enough and you're just sticking to one sector, good luck, you're not going to make it.
So that's the biggest lesson for me.
Yeah, great stuff there, Lady Trader, and solid question there, TG.
I was going to say, still got some time here, but if anyone else wants to jump in on any of the last couple takes, definitely throw up a hand.
Flo, I'm not sure if you're probably doing some probably doing some side work and I'm sure you're bouncing
from call to call,
but if you're in the space,
definitely,
and you want to jump in the call,
you know,
definitely throw up a hand
and we'd love to work you
into the conversation as well.
Get some of your thoughts
on things you're paying attention to.
Billy, I'm curious
if you've got any thoughts
in the last few minutes
of the conversation,
kind of went to you
earlier on in the space.
I haven't heard from you
in a little bit.
I'm curious if you share
any of the same stuff
that Lady Sherry was talking about in some of these other sectors, if you're paying attention to any of the sectors a bit more closely than others that you might be seeing opportunities in.
hasn't been like all the other weeks.
Now, you know, of course, I've always got one eye on some of the NFT stuff.
You know, I do dabble, and I have my own NFT project, of course.
I'm not going to shill it, but it just, you know, my interest level's there.
It's always there in some of the NFT stuff.
You know, we did see some big, huge dollars come into the cyberpunks, the NFT space.
We are seeing the floor.
Some of the NFTs go up.
There's a lot of political stuff going on with the apes and stuff like that.
But no, overall, I trade.
I am always, you know, buying my improving my long term Bitcoin bags at different levels.
I typically use the fear and greed.
To tell you the truth, the way I buy my Bitcoin is I use fear and greed.
And when I see fear and greed in the teens, I go in and I buy Bitcoin for my long term bag.
It's that simple.
It's that all this other stuff, you know, like we're complex traders.
We use a lot of indicators.
We're always checking everything, right?
Whether it's the VWAP or the MACD or support resistance or you name it, value profile, fixed profiles.
We're using everything to trade.
But for like my long-term bags, I'm going in with fear and greed in the teens and I'm buying Bitcoin.
And that has proven, just consistently proven to be a good way to purchase Bitcoin.
And so, no, man, I don't have any special sauce, but I always love being on the space or even as a speaker or an audience because everybody's take.
I'm always learning something myself.
So love it.
Appreciate you, Cade.
Appreciate Wolf.
And hello and goodbye
to everybody on this on the speaker panel i didn't get a chance to say hi to everybody so yeah
hey my man this is always great to have you you always could be the greatest energy and
super active on the charts as well which we it's hard to find that sometimes in crypto people who
are active on the timeline also down jumping spaces and share some of their experiences and
stuff so always great to have you in here, Billy.
Flo, glad we could catch you into the conversation, man.
I see your hand.
I definitely want to get some of your thoughts on everything going on.
Hey, man.
Hey, what's up, Cade?
Yeah, you called me out.
So I figured I would at least jump up, say a few words.
But to be honest with you, you know, not much has changed over the last few days.
Looking at a lot of the same things, you know, that I have over the last few days looking at a lot of the same things you know
that i have towards the beginning of the week you know obviously we're still churning out the
kind of reaction to fomc you know it's kind of as i was kind of like talking about right before the
decision in one of these spaces you know even though the likely or the expected result was no change
to rates, you know, the what was more important was likely was guidance was what he was going
to talk about, you know, what was the actual potential path of rates in the future. You know,
obviously, we've had some kind of mixed data starting to come in, you know, inflation kind of like coming in hot
for or hotter than expected for the first time in a while, as just as well as just a couple other
things happening under the surface on the liquidity level. So it's kind of the first time where it's
like kind of been more of a period where you want to exercise some caution in the last few months,
which, you know which a lot of the
panelists have also hinted at.
We've been kind of talking about over the last kind of few weeks heading into FOMC.
So, I mean, looking at Bitcoin specifically, just kind of like a good way to just assess
liquidity, assess where kind of market sentiment is at in general.
Yeah, I mean, we're still kind of within this same range,
although obviously things look weak. We're obviously trending towards the bottom of the
range right now. Probably looking towards a retest of liquidity around 115 and then likely
could see those lower levels around 112, 113 K after that, you know, who knows,
but likely, you know, I think this has been probably mentioned, you know, many times,
but this likely isn't the kind of like the very, very top, you know, this is likely just
consolidation pullback, you know, into the end of summer, August and September are generally not months for the best seasonality.
So, you know, this is kind of just normal kind of market action in general. Yeah, just more so,
again, I'm taking kind of a backseat these days, just kind of waiting for the next actual big move
before I actually make some new trades.
I'm very, very, very market neutral right now in general,
after being very, very bullish leading up into,
I would say like mid-July.
So things have kind of, like I said,
things have kind of started to change under the surface.
One thing that's really notable is that good news
isn't having the effect that, you know, people kind of think it should or that's expected.
You know, that's kind of something that you usually see around trend changes, whether it's, you know, the market's bottoming and bad news is no longer affecting the market negatively.
Or whether it's, you know, we are kind of among just a bunch of good news, like there's been a bunch of positive headlines, you know, crypto specific headlines recently.
And that's not really having any positive effect on Bitcoin
or Ethereum or Sol, et cetera, et cetera. So that's something that you usually want to look
for when liquidity is starting to dry up and, you know, you're more in a distributive
consolidation period. So that's what I've been kind of been seeing happening. And yeah,
I think that's kind of going to continue potentially over the next few weeks, possibly into mid-September before we see one more push back into, I personally think,
new all-time highs on Bitcoin and probably on US indices stocks as well.
Interesting stuff. Calvin, so you jumped up here and that will drop drop down and then jump
back up i'm curious if you want to way back into the conversation or if you have any thoughts on
flows kind of macro take there as well a bit more neutral um but said a couple things there i think
i think that was in line with sort of your thesis that you gave a bit earlier in the space
can you still hear me okay yes sir okay good yeah um yeah i kind of feel like everyone's
probably thinking you know i mean people get a little too optimistic when things are exciting
and and so it's good to have that kind of even look i was kind of interested you know i kind
of made the comment you know that i wouldn't be surprised if we had a a little bit of a
a decrease in rates and everyone was like, no, that's not possible.
But I kind of wonder if the market did have a little sense of that, that kind of same similar feeling.
Because when nothing changed, it did kind of pull back a little.
So that was kind of interesting.
But you're right.
I think flow's dead on.
I think the summer months are not fantastic for big, strong moves, especially in crypto.
And so if we're going to get a pullback i
mean um this will doom the market for sure but if we're in a super cycle we're gonna need another
pullback in order for us to to really get going again so there you go what kind of pullback for
a super cycle do you imagine if that was to play out calvin um well just taking a look at the um the weekly chart our our last our last level of resistance
that we broke through was at um 110 but uh let's you know if we're just pretending like we're
super cycling it up then we would probably need a a pretty solid pullback into like the hundred
but then if we hit there,
we've got to like, we got to move like this whole time. I've been saying the problem with our bull
market is that every time we hit all time highs, we, we go up like barely and then we go flat.
And that's happened so frequent, you know, like so many times that, um market it's going to get into the market's psyche that
um you know they're not going to trust new breakouts and things of course that could be a
contra indicator but i kind of feel like you know people are exhausted they see all this bullish
news we finally hit all-time high and then it goes sideways and you can only do that so many times before, you know, the short term, you know, I'm scared of my own reflection.
Traitors are going to be selling like crazy.
You're scared of your own reflection.
I love it.
Damn, dude, that's about as bad as it gets from a Calvin roast right there.
I mean, that's that's brutal.
Yeah.
Good take there, Calvin.
Landy, I saw your hand shot up, so I'll go to you. Yeah. My, my opinion on this is that, well, super cycle talk is fun to talk about. And, and, you know, there is a possibility that we
could see the, you know, ever present bullish grind, because that's what
a super cycle will look like. If we were to see that, it is possible, right? But it's not confirmed.
There's nothing confirming that. And every step of the way, everyone will doubt it no matter what,
even if it were to occur. We saw this in gold markets for seven years and then a
two-year bear market and then another five years post, right? When studying kind of market history.
Now, of course, I was not around for that in markets. But the bigger thing right now is the
market has shifted focus post-genius act passage. A lot of the market has shifted focus post genius act passage a lot of the market is shifting focus and
priorities are being you know while we're still seeing obviously the treasury company narrative
which i think is what will bring about the next bear market because most of these treasury
companies that are popping up and i'm talking about the now 180 Bitcoin treasury companies, there's maybe 10 that will survive
because they actually have real business revenue models because they're just going to outcompete.
And why would I go with a treasury company that is just a company that is failing, that
puts Bitcoin on their books just to raise their number and issue debt and basically shitcoin out some stocks
when I can just go buy spot or go get into a company that actually has a real business model.
And that's, in my opinion, what will bring about the next bearish period. And it's just how bearish
does it get? What's the other vectors for accumulation? And there's still a lot of things on the table, you know, us government budget
neutral accumulation, and that's without the Bitcoin act. Um, if the Bitcoin act passes,
now they won't have a regular cadence. Um, we'll see the revaluing of gold certificates that's in
there and that's obviously going to change. We'll see what it changes too. But I think the focus
right now from a lot of the bigger institutional players is there's a lot of excitement and a lot of discussions happening about getting issuance on chain.
This is a fairly easy thing for a lot of the banking sector to do already.
They already have access to the Federal Reserve Bank
in New York, right? So they can easily get into the treasury market and suck up some treasuries.
They can use existing treasuries and cash and move that over to start issuance and stuff like that.
But they need to now with their planning stages right now are like, we have to compete. We have
to compete with others that are going to be doing this private and
public issuers.
And so I think that a lot of capital allocation is being kind of revved up in
that direction.
Obviously we see the flows for the spot ETFs.
There's the, the in-kind change just to kind of smooth things out.
But what does that do? That squeezes the ARB trades. So, you know, and,
and in favor of, of getting rid of overhead.
And now there's just we're in this period. And this is like a natural period to do it is like right around this time of year is to start.
You know, you're you got your six month, you know, closes coming in. You're halfway through the year.
year, start prepping for the end of the year and start prepping for next year. Like this is when,
Start prepping for the end of the year and start prepping for next year.
when a lot of the bigger money players with bigger institutions are starting to really forecast out
ahead for themselves, not just the market, but for themselves, because they're running real
businesses. They're dealing with real, real cash, right. And, and how are we going to allocate what
we're doing? And I think the next big meta, obviously, and I've said this and I've been saying
this for a little while, but I'll say it here because I don't think I've said it here. Everybody
talks about market caps and this and that. Well, what is the next biggest market? What's going to
flip Bitcoin in terms of market cap? Well, there's only really one thing at this point,
my personal opinion, and that's stable coin market cap. And realistically, what are we going to see?
They want to get liquid, right? They want to get their stablecoins that they're issuing on chain,
and then they want to turn around and tokenize their stocks and their portfolios and their
products in-house and pair it with those. So there's a lot of discussions happening across
the board. This is one of the reasons why the crypto week kind of, you know, big push this week from the administration and various players within the industry in Washington, D.C., having a lot of conversations.
And I think, you know, it's the right time to do it. It's the right time to have those conversations. What is that going to look like in terms of Supercycle and other things that are related to super cycle talk? That's all speculation until it's confirmed.
And I don't think anybody, even us, even me, I don't think anybody's going to sit here and confirm like, yeah, we're in the super cycle.
It's just after a while, if you're in a super cycle, then you're just accepting it.
And you're just waiting for it to turn around.
And at this point, it's liquidity cycle until proven otherwise,
right? And we're not at the timeframe where we're in the proven otherwise phase. It's still, for me,
Q4 to Q1, right? That's it for me, unless proven otherwise, and we're just not there yet.
Yeah, great take there, Land landy we'll go over to
calvin and i'd love to see if this wants to jump back in and see if he's got any thoughts in the
conversation yeah landy man what a smart guy those are some really really good points
um kind of reminds me of the favorite my favorite thing that happened this cycle so far
is that um everyone thought that the US government had 210,000 Bitcoin
and it turns out that there was 27,000.
No, they still got it.
Calvin, I'm going to push back on that.
Is that true?
You can check the wallets.
Yeah, you can check the wallets right there on Arkham.
We have the wallets.
We're watching.
We're watching like hawks, brother.
We're watching like hawks.
So that was a bit of fun.
You know who put that fun out? That fud you know who put that fud
out that was uh cynthia loomis put that fud out there i'm telling you they're fighting for entry
i'm telling you they're trying to help the treasury out here yeah if you go to arkham
if you go to arkham and you look at the u.s government holding um yeah they got it they got it so um if you look on arkham right now they've got now there was some
movement for the ross alberg stuff there is some adjustments but 198 000 uh bitcoin now so what the
funny part is about that is the 27 000 bitcoin is what moved so that's because we were at like 225 and a half or 226 and we've seen
some of the outflows from this so it is something to monitor right there's something to monitor yeah
i mean that would be well i think that would be you know that type of stuff where you're like
i think we kind of know where the supply is plus or minus 200,000 Bitcoin, you know, it's kind of odd.
This is a weird, this is a weird cycle because in the past, you know, front page news was
some guy bought 10 million dollars worth of Bitcoin or something.
And now we got billions and people just shrug it off.
And so it's odd.
There's some pretty, you know, the things that would have made the world just flip on its head have just been so tame lately.
So anyway, just odd.
Kind of makes you wonder, like, if that can't push the market, what's going to push the market, you know?
I remember feeling those same things at the Coin Treasury announcement.
I was like, okay, that was about it. I was was like i don't know if it gets much better than that like
where's the pump um and i never ended up well we'll see what happens but um yeah yeah great
points there uh and i also honestly i think i was mainly i remember when the ets first came out and
then we saw bitcoin obviously made that move and i just i think i had happened to get lucky and
allocated before all that stuff went down.
But I remember I was like shocked to see Bitcoin do such a quick rapid 2x.
I just wasn't expecting that from Bitcoin, honestly.
And that was probably a good thing to happen.
Obviously, it was good for the gains, but also just like long term for me to be like, oh, wait, Bitcoin can move.
I just up to that point, I just thought it was like you might as well just trade Solana or something like that.
But Bitcoin can move.
Anyways, before I throw it over to this, I do also want to say again, shout out to Auseum for sponsoring today's show. The number one place to trade crypto,
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definitely check it out let's let's know what you guys think um bits of wealth i want to throw the
mic over to you see if you got any thoughts on the conversation especially um there you know when
we sort of brought up the the conversation around what may bring around the next bear market
obviously a lot of the treasury companies is going to be a gamble we'll see what happens there, you know, when we sort of brought up the conversation around what may bring around the next bear market,
obviously a lot of the treasury companies is going to be a gamble.
We'll see what happens with a lot of these guys
and, you know, how much Bitcoin the United States
actually owns, what they plan to do with it,
how that affects things.
I'm curious if you've got any thoughts on this.
Yeah, I think that'll be the most interesting thing
to, you know, go back and look at, you know,
whether it's next year or the year after or
several years from now is how this whole treasury company thing is going to play out.
What's interesting is, you know, it's you're starting to really see the momentum pick up
around that. And it's happening towards the end of this four year cycle, which is I don't think
that's a coincidence um
i know i hate it but you see this every time right i mean if you look back at prior cycle tops
a lot of times it's been around like big big listings or big news or big whatever it just
it it's literally what prints the tops so um yeah we'll see what happens i mean unless this thing is
so irregular that um it's just
going to keep on stretching because it has been even if you look at like the bitcoin um chart on
like uh weekly or or monthly time frame it has been um a little bit more um what's what's a more
a word i'm looking for i don't know that i want to use like stable but
it's been less volatile in the sense that we're not getting parabolic action to the upside yet
and even the dips have been rather choppy and not as violent um so i don't know it's been
interesting you definitely have a lot of absorption that's going on on both sides and um
you know um i don't know
is this thing going to continue to kind of just uh get stretched out you know up into the right
and then just become um less extreme in the way it swings both to the upside and the downside and
just kind of continue to to pull up up into the right so you know we'll find out i mean a lot of these things i think uh
landy was the one mentioning it that it's like it's it's impossible to know right now like we
could speculate um but at some point we'll be able to look back and it'll just be clear as day it'll
just be like ah you know yeah that's that's what was happening you know we'll all be able to see
it so um yeah i don't know i mean this whole the the but the the
whole like yeah the whole the whole buying behavior that's happening right now where it's like everyone
is jumping on board um to me it is interesting and um we'll see what happens but uh yeah i think
that could be the the biggest thing that we look back on and maybe get some lessons around
yeah because i remember like you know looking back now, the Trump token is so
beyond obvious that it was the top, that it's painful for any of us who didn't recognize it
when it happens. And I remember when it was happening, we were all like, it has to be the
top, right? Like they can't, they can't not be the top. There's no possible way. This is not the top.
But then we were like, but is it? And then when Melania came, we were like, yeah, probably.
But, um, it is hard to sometimes see where you're at in the cycle. Landy, what are your thoughts, man?
Yeah, I was I ran a 17 hour space when the Trump token launched.
And I was fortunate enough to get that dropped in a chat.
There was a dropping in a bunch of chats and everybody was trying to nobody was getting in because they were like, this can't be real.
Right. And then I was like, I'm just going to ape in.
I managed to get a fill in a really good
spot and then i was running a space and we watched the milania token watching volume i was like yeah
i'm out and by the way meme coins are probably gonna take a dive meanwhile they're diving down
but i i have a request for bits of wealth because I want to start a treasury company with bits of wealth called bits of wealth, where it's a Bitcoin treasury company that then starts to get into buying Solana, but then putting it on the risk side of the balance sheet and just dumping the ever living shit out of it.
That would be hilarious.
Let's do it.
Bits.
You on board?
You had me at dumping Solana, just so you know i think you had a bigger
that would sell you at it this is uh insider trading right here at its finest everybody
this is how it's done um for everyone who's listening and you want to take notes that is
how it's professionally done mr landy's a professional kol um just take a look at his
bio if you don't believe me um says
professional kol somewhere in there or maybe i don't know it says kola on there somewhere um
nah yeah totally 100 um brad price while you just jumped right back up in the space i thought we
lost you there but looks like he spawned back in when solana was mentioned um didn't know if you
had a specific take that you wanted to jump in with or if you heard the last few minutes of
conversation but i've got a couple minutes left before we jump off
here so we'd love to throw it over to you and anybody else on the panel by the way if you have
any final thoughts definitely throw up a hand so we don't miss it but price over to you uh no not
really i'm actually wondering uh if anyone's in coinbase or, I mean, they report after closing bell today, right?
Like I said, I've been out of it the past few days.
I've been sick, but I think they do.
Does anyone have any thoughts on what's going to happen there?
I actually have not been keeping up track
super close with Coinbase.
Landy, you had set up a couple of emojis.
Are you paying attention to Coinbase right now?
Yeah.
So their earnings estimate is already reported.
It was a surprise.
Revenue is down though.
So earnings revenue is down 90 mil.
It was a surprise 5.68% down, but the reported earnings estimate was actually
a beat and that's a 3.89% or so. Yeah, that's actually really good. The Coinbase is strong
and they position themselves to be in a very advantageous position in this market with the major institutions around the world, especially on the custody side.
I mean, we're still all waiting for, what was that, on-chain summer, right?
Is this the summer?
Wasn't that last summer?
Maybe they'll do it this summer.
We'll see what kind of summer.
Maybe it's next summer.
Maybe it's summer 2028. We'll finally get on-chain summer. Maybe they'll do it this summer. We'll see what kind of summer. Maybe it's next summer. Maybe it's summer 2028. We'll finally get on chain summer. But what they're doing is a lot
of strategic investment throughout different ecosystems. And I think that Brian has positioned
the company very well on the institutional side of things.
And I think once they start fleshing that out for retail,
which I still, I know that it's the most popular,
but I think that they have a long way to go to really flush things out
and make it easier for retail.
And I think once they do, you know, uh, basically the next major pullbacks in markets.
Um, I think it's still a good bet.
And I think, you know, kind of in conjunction with that, you know, they're, they're facilitating
a lot of the, uh, a lot of the custody for a lot of these treasury companies to them
and others, right.
Through, through various partnerships.
But, um, you know, I'm watching very closely and maybe I'll wrap my
thoughts with this. One of the bigger things that I'm still looking at, Dixie bouncing, right?
Why is Dixie bouncing? This is beyond crypto markets at this point, right? This has to do
with the trade back into the dollar surrounding a lot of the tariff negotiations that are going on.
This was expected.
If you're watching very closely,
we're starting to get a weekly turnaround on that.
And anytime you see that,
traditional markets have been cooking.
I mean, the only one outside,
I mean, we saw futures making new all-time high on Dow,
but not making new all-time high on Dow itself,
just Dow futures.
But we've been hitting these daily new all-time highs on on dow itself just dow futures but you know we've been hitting these
you know daily new all-time highs on nasdaq and spy it's got a cool down we need a cool down period
or a nice correction anyway and the way that uh you know i think flo did a really good job of
describing where you know we're kind of in and everybody here did, right? Like doing a really good job of describing like,
hey, this is not just the time period,
but also here's some of the reasons why.
Because some of the economic data,
although very positive,
looking deeper into that underlying economic data
for GDP, understanding that, yeah,
we had a nice little uptick
in personal spending month over month.
We had a little tiny downtick in, I'm sorry, personal income,
but a little tiny downtick in personal spending.
We saw a little bit of softening in terms of job openings.
We need to see unemployment.
We need to see how the end of the month really into the beginning of August
really starts to shape up because in the near term,
it's not really going to adjust longer term plans for a lot of the larger players and a lot of the institutions
but everyone's laser focused on trade deals and and where the advantageous vectors are for
investment because if we have in increasing exports and we have increasing investment and
building out production in the united states they all want to keep some off to the side to make sure
that they're reserving capital to invest in those and none of that money even if it's been allocated
to be invested here in the united states hasn't hit yet and we're still sorting through some of
these trade agreements and they need to see them done, right? Because then that capital can start to deploy.
So we're in this period and it's lining up very well that I don't think major institutions really care about what Powell is going to say about the rates.
Although we know that it's being indicated that he's willing now.
And post-Genius Act, you got that backstop of a vector for demand.
And post-Genius Act, you got that backstop of a vector for demand.
So this is going to be very interesting moving forward throughout the next two, three months, right?
Into the Q4.
Because this is where the rubber hits the road.
And if you don't see Ethereum, by the way, this is kind of wrap back to crypto for a second.
Bitcoin can keep marching and doing its own damn thing, right?
It's highly, it's it's highly
it's very much in demand from the institutional side and it's very much in demand from the uh
the governmental side state here in the united states and the federal government we know that
there's a lot of plans surrounding it but if ethereum doesn't break its all-time high
surrounding it. But if Ethereum doesn't break its all time high, it's, there's not going to be that
giga pump, all alt coin season like thing. And maybe that's, you know, kind of priming for next,
next Monday when I'll, I'll be back on and maybe we'll see where, where the conversation lands
after the weekly closes, but, and the new monthly open, right. Which is tomorrow.
closes, but, and the new monthly open, right. Which is tomorrow. Um, you know, we're going to
be sliding into that and, and just a few hours here on Bitcoin. So yeah, I I'm not, none of this
should freak anybody out though. We still, there's still some time, but I do agree with Calvin in
this. If, if this is going to stick to the normal liquidity cycles which is still that
is the the the assumption that I have the time table is shrinking we're now five months out
right so we're gonna be we're gonna be four months out right so gotta really start seeing
things come to fruition pretty quickly or else we have to start adjusting our expectations or being open to some things beginning to crack in terms of narrative and maybe even cycle.
Who knows?
I'm not sure who that was. I'm going to that was otg and it's okay it's okay i'm sorry i
said i fat fingered the button i'm sorry sue me that was such good timing by the way
don't you say that he said i was hanging i was hanging on i was hanging on so close. Flex and co-host.
Much love, much love.
I don't know why it's funny when, like, dads say they fat-fingered it.
It's, like, funnier when it's a dad who says they fat-fingered it.
I don't know why that's funny to me.
Because I fat-fingered things all the time.
But, no, that was hilarious.
OCG, do you have any thoughts on this?
Maybe we'll try and see if we can kidnap Landy on Sunday afternoon.
And we have a Sunday evening space with us to see him later on this weekend.
I'm looking forward to that.
We'll see if we can get him out of the doghouse and get him into the space for a few minutes there on Sunday.
Heck yeah.
No, that'd be awesome. What you just said is something that I would think that 99% of the noobs, the normies, the tourists that are only here to make a few hundred dollars off of the next Pingu, Coochie Toy, or whatever it is, so many people don't think that there's a world that exists where ETH might not impress eventually this cycle.
And, you know, the people that are paying attention that know that anything is possible in this space.
Yes, everybody in this space knows it. Great.
But there's a ton of stupid money out there.
All due respect, dumb money doesn't think like that.
They think like opium saturated chad bros and those guys you know can
you imagine we we we reach whatever the top is and eth hasn't had its dance and doesn't can you
imagine the freak out that would happen and it would be so epic. I mean, you want to talk about, Christ was talking about this monster,
multi-hundred percent soul shorties in right now.
It would be amazing.
I would love it.
Not, you know, that I like the downfall of the space,
but that, I mean, there is no money like short money,
like the t-shirt says, right?
And that would be a scenario
that so many people can't even imagine.
They can't even frame that in their mind as a real possibility.
And I'm definitely not a bearish guy, but I'm a money guy.
And that would be a money-soaked day.
You know, I actually don't think it would surprise me.
I don't think there'd be a big freakout about it, though, because I think the trend that we've seen and I believe we'd probably continue to see.
Is I think there's going to be a lot of denial and to go into, um, um, you know, if,
if these cycles are still intact and we're going into the typical bear market and,
you know, I don't know, like if you look at past cycles after the top is in BTCs,
you know, had about a 50% move to the downside in a matter of weeks. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think that this
might be the first time that maybe we just have a lot of people continue to say,
we're still going so much higher. We haven't even started yet. The bull market hasn't even started
hasn't even started because we're still technically in that narrative.
because we're still technically in that narrative. I still see posts every day where it's like,
I still see posts every day where it's like the bull market hasn't even started yet.
And I'm just kind of like, really?
Like, okay.
Um, all right.
Like if that's what, that's what you think, you know, but, um, yeah, I don't know.
It's, it's, it's such an interesting time right now.
Yeah. Thousand percents. Thousand percents. It's such an interesting time right now. Yeah, a thousand percent.
A thousand percent.
Definitely, I could say, we've said this for a year now probably,
but the best thing you can do for yourself right now
if you're finding yourself getting rinsed
is start to pick up some tips and tricks
from various traders with more experience from yourself
and just try and get a bit of context on where we sit it definitely is helpful when you can understand these markets and
have a bit of um historical knowledge on what's been going down try and put these on you know as
often as we can these shows we got some trading spaces we got some that are more macro focused as
well but um i don't think there's another way to shortcut your way through this cycle i don't
think you can survive without knowing this stuff i just i just don't think it can it can work like that anymore um so definitely if you guys are i mean i hand out money
oh can i get on that list like if you yeah if you follow me a lot of times i post my entries
and all of that um so you know bits of wealth if your indicator guy posts ever his entries can we get in on that
maybe as well get like two two different indicators going
my quant my quant and the quant of my quant i'm just saying it's strange that we haven't heard
from the quant in a little while um well i guess it's not i guess i guess he does pop in and out
it's probably it's probably just on time um when out It's probably just on time Yeah did he run out of money
Bitch
Nah it's just
We're not having
We're not having big
Pumps big euphoria
Retail by the top
Type pumps right
We get another one of those and
My quant will be uh checking in for
sure fantastic fantastic um guys it's been an excellent conversation appreciate you guys coming
through definitely if you're in the space and you're in the show already and haven't already
taken a second to be sure you're following all the speakers up here definitely do that and if
you enjoyed the space it is recorded so for people who couldn't make the live stream,
they can catch the recording,
but we'll have a boosted chance that it actually reaches them.
If you retweet the space or quote to the space,
it does help us out a ton and growing these spaces.
So bottom right corner, the little purple pill down there,
if you hit that, it'll take you to the spaces page.
And I really appreciate all the support there.
And a shout out, of course, again,
to Austin for sponsoring today's show.
I don't see any other hands,
so I think this is probably a good place to wrap.
We'll be back tomorrow with the CryptoPulse.
I think Lady Trader probably has some more Fridays.
So pretty excited to chat with you guys,
kind of wrap up the week.
And then we'll have a Sunday space with Austin,
which we're looking forward to.
And yeah, I'm definitely looking forward
to seeing what happens this weekend.
I mean, I've pretty much shifted out of the idea
that you can zone out on the weekends.
I mean, you really can't.
And so we'll just keep running with that as long as it gives us that.
And then, you know, at some point in the future, the market will be boring and we'll be looking back at these days and wishing for more.
And so, yeah, man, appreciate all the guys coming through.
We'll catch you guys on the next one.
Take care, everybody.
When's the next full moon?
That's the only thing
that needs to be answered here, actually. Thank you.
