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Real World Assets, Global Liquidity, Tokenizing the World, Stablecoins
Recorded: April 15, 2025 Duration: 1:04:24Space Recording
Short Summary
The discussion centered around the evolving landscape of stable coins, highlighting significant trends, partnerships, and project launches that are shaping the future of tokenized assets. Key insights included Ripple's acquisition of Hidden Road, the regulatory environment's impact on stable coins, and the necessity for stable coins to be backed by verifiable assets.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Music All right, what's going on, everybody?
Welcome to Wolf.
Welcome to another RGW space.
We're running a Tuesday, 1 o'clock Eastern.
RGW space.
What's going on?
Is this like an alternate universe or something, Ray?
What's happening here?
I'm in New York City right now for the tokenized this conference,
talking all things RWAs.
I'm hyped to be here.
I'm probably going to have to sit back and listen for the most part
to what I normally do, but more so than normal
just because I'm a little bit mobile currently.
But, man, hyped to be here.
If you guys can help me out, please do reach me to space.
If ArtWay is something you're passionate about,
we definitely want to get the word out there
and let people know that space has begun.
It's good to see everybody in here.
Shout out to all you guys and girls who all come to these spaces.
Great. How's it going, man?
Yo, yo, yo.
You are in New York.
It is a Tuesday at 1 o'clock. I got a burrito for late lunch.
It is not our normal Thursday space. I will tell you that, but that's fine because tokenized
assets never sleep, nor do they stop. But they can tell time because that's all blockchain's
about is a timestamp ledger. And we're stoked to have them because that's what makes tokenized
assets possible. So super stoked to be here with all these amazing people, echoing Kate's sentiment.
If you can hear my voice, give all of these folks a follow because
they are being so generous with their time and expertise. And also follow our host, Wolf Crypto,
your one-stop shop for everything in crypto under the sun, including tokenized assets.
I'm your host, Ray Buckton, head of research at rwa.world. We are your one-stop shop for
everything that is, well, tokenized. My precious little baby is the newsletter, which you can subscribe to.
And every Friday at 8 a.m., you will have an under 1,000 words finger on the polls of what's going down in tokenized assets.
And let me tell you, what's been going down this week is some stable coins.
The headline is coins are getting stable.
And I have a horse emoji because I'm cute and clever like that.
But man, you know, let me tell you, these big banks that are making moves are, they're not cute. They are serious business. And so the SEC,
as we mentioned last time, hosted a trading roundtable with Uniswap and Coinbase. At the
same time, they have mentioned that certain stable coins are indeed not securities, but are still
kind of unsure about how yield is going to work into the whole thing. But ultimately, across the
pond in Europe, the architect of the
MICA legislation said they really don't need a follow-up legislation since ultimately MICA kind
of covers everything. So we're kind of seeing the emergence of regulation or a lack thereof here in
the U.S., or at least in clarity, and a pretty good stance from the actual architect of MICA
saying that, hey, you know, MICA's pretty good. It covers everything. It looks good. My son doesn't think so. He's sad about it, but that's okay. He doesn't understand
regulation or taxes yet. However, someone who does is our friend Colin Sellers here. Colin is
doing some fantastic work. Colin, I'm curious to your take about the distinction between what's
happened in the US versus Europe in terms of the regulatory environment for stable coins.
Yeah. Hey, Ray, thanks for having me. It's a great question, right? I mean, Mika was,
I think, was really important in a macro sense in terms of a large part of global capital markets
coming out and saying, all right, we're going to provide some guidance for this. But as you've
noted, there have been some restrictions there. I mean, Tether can't operate under Mika in any way,
been some restrictions there. I mean, Tether can't operate under MECA in any way, shape, or form.
Certainly, compliance with banking regulation, anti-money laundering, KYC comes into play.
And it's a really critical period, right? Because we now have a chance to, I made this comment in
one of your other spaces, right? I think we have a chance as an industry to sort of step back for a minute and really examine the spirit of the law and where these things come from.
I'm a big believer and advocate in free markets and also rubber meets the road somewhere.
And so I don't anticipate a completely free, completely KYC-less, AML-less global capital market anytime soon.
And so we will do what we can to work with the regulators. And yeah, I think we have a really great opportunity
right now with everything that's going on with the Stable Act and all of the considerations
here domestically in the US. Okay, well, what was the purpose of, you know, some of these
regulations, right? Like the Bank Secrecy Act and anti-money laundering?
I get all that. That's great. We don't want it to be easy for terrorists to finance their operations. No part of me disagrees with that. The restrictions and how they actually apply,
though, when it comes to AML and KYC, certainly if you're talking about trading digital assets
with stable coins as your base pair, yeah, that merits our attention. And so I think I'm really happy that
we're having these conversations now. I think the Stable Act is very, very interesting. I think
we're seeing increasingly, and we're going to see more and more, more people jumping on board the
Stablecoin wagon, if you will. I think we'll see a lot more issuers um but you know i think so definitely
remains to be seen as to you know where this actually nets out but the thing that's exciting
to me and i'll wrap it i'm talking too much uh the thing that's exciting to me is really that
we're we're now at a point where um we can fully digitize everything within capital markets and
that that includes the dollars, that includes your
base pair for settlement. That matters. The velocity of money and how that moves, the velocity
of assets and how and where they move around, right? That's really only made possible or the
enhancement thereof is only made possible because of a fully digital system. And that means digital
dollars for settlement and for trade purposes. And so these are the right conversations we need to be having. And yeah, I'm happy to be here.
100%. Absolutely stoked to have you, my friend. And you said one of my favorite topics to the
velocity of money, because if money ain't moving, something ain't working right with the economy.
And ultimately, the central bankers may be like my son, who is still very sad, but that's okay,
because he has a room full of toys, just like the central bankers kind of have their own room full of toys, different purposes,
but nevertheless. Would love to get someone's take from across the pond. We have our friends
Onino here with us as well. They're based in Deutschland, Germany, for Yankees like myself.
We'd love to get y'all's take on kind of the regulatory environment, EU versus US,
regulatory environment, EU versus US, kind of how you see this whole thing evolving.
kind of how you see this whole thing evolving.
Yes, welcome everyone. Happy to be here and be back again. I love seeing the regulatory
environment evolve. And the main thing I see is that, as Colin put it, it is basically the
groundwork that has to be laid for bigger institutions to pick up
um in in europe for example we see with mica the trust from bigger corporates actually got
enhanced and they actually now want to start developing um something aligned with stable
coins and any other asset thereof because what do companies especially big companies love
any other asset thereof because what do companies especially big companies love
security in terms of being able to plan for longer term things and that's nothing that has not been
there or something that hasn't been there in especially blockchain world for a long time
and we do also see that we a lot of the european organization companies are looking especially
across the pond um to see how things will shape
out there.
And I believe things will be moving rapidly.
The key thing that I hope for is regulation to be aligned.
Because if we kind of end up in a system where things cannot be standardized because regulations
still are so much different depending on the jurisdiction you go into.
We walk into a lot more difficulties than we could solve with the regulation.
But we are really positive on that front and eager to see how fast things will develop in the U.S.
100 percent standardization is the way to go. Without standardization, when you take the railroads,
for example, imagine having a stop every four miles just to get off and get onto a new train
as well. Different company, different gauges for your rail line. That's a huge problem. So
love the bullishness and the fact that we seem to be moving in the right direction there.
And kind of keeping it on the other side of the pond, well, it's the other side of the pond for me, our friends over at Aroka. I know you guys are based in Europe. Please correct
me if I'm wrong, but I know you've had some great dialogue with our friend Alex from Maverick
Protocol regarding kind of regulation and tokenization as it's happening in the EU.
Let me get your take on the topic. Wow. I'm so happy to talk today because you guys are busting
into all the open doors that we're busting into and I'd love to jump in.
So a few things. First of all, we as background were founded the day Terra Luna collapsed and it's kind of symbolic.
But we in 2022 looked for a better way to do stable coins. That's how we started out. And we today shifted to sell S&P and Tesla and other
stocks and bonds, which are highly volumetric and publicly traded. And we'll go into that in a
moment. But we started out by, and I'll go deep a bit for a second. We started by dissecting the
current stable coin industry. Without naming naming names we looked at a centralized
non-transparent maybe or maybe not back non-regulated and and very much
inflationary stable coin no names yeah and we kind of created a mirror which is decentralized, fully transparent, fully backed, regulated,
and hopefully, and we can't say the word yielding, so I'm not going to say yielding,
but appreciating. How's that? Let's say appreciating for today. We will go into this
deeper. So we've since shifted, but the important thing is that the place that we found a possible regulation change and a shift was MICA.
So in the 1st of January, the new MICA regulation shifted in and the asset reference token was actually introduced.
So there are many different uses for the asset reference token.
It is not a utility token, nor is it a stable coin. It cannot be of one denomination of fiat
only. So it cannot wrap a dollar or a euro. That's another regulation. And it is not a security.
That's another regulation.
And it is not a security.
Well, so long as you commit to certain guidelines and don't do certain things, we can go into that later,
you can actually take a S&P 500 ETF and wrap that with an ERC- permissionless token or different standard, but permissionless
token and put that on a DEX and actually not get delisted because it's not a security.
That's what we set out to do. And it was a long way off from the original yielding stable. Sorry, I said yielding. But we did look throughout the world for a
legal opinion and a jurisdiction that has a licensing to create such an asset. And we
actually came back to Micah. Most of us are from Israel and some of us are from the
Netherlands. So the Netherlands part just said, hey, we have it.
It's here.
We don't have to go to Hong Kong or Singapore or Dubai or definitely not the U.S., etc.
We found the ability to do it at home, quote unquote.
And that's what we're doing.
I'd love any input from people here that know anything about other attempts and other, you know, tried trials to bring asset reference token and different things tokenized in them.
So it's really interesting to hear inputs from different people here, you know, and anybody else.
Thanks for having me.
Absolutely. Always a pleasure to have you, my friend, and really fascinating stuff you're doing.
I love the terminological dance that we must do due to the regulations, right? Can't say yielding,
but ultimately, I know it's difficult to do, and somewhere out there, your compliance officer just
got a headache, and he has no idea why. So always a fun time.
Also, we have, speaking of people who are on the ground, talking to folk, feeling out the space,
and really just having some great dialogue and helping to build this thing. We have our,
my friend, Travis John, amazing human being. He's doing some great work over at RWA Builders. Give those guys a follow and also doing some great stuff with side events. So if you ever need an
event with somebody who knows what they're doing, this is the
man to call.
Travis, I know you have tons of conversations in the space regarding tokenization.
So curious as to your thoughts in terms of stable coins and what are you hearing on the
ground from people who are building out front?
Yeah, no, love it, man.
Great seeing you.
Great seeing a lot of friends here and talking stable coins, I think, is where a lot of the conversations
I've been having over the past few weeks, as you noted in the RWA World Newsletter.
I mean, I think one of the biggest thing, of course, as most of us already know, the
Hidden Road acquisition by Ripple is massive, right?
Like $3 trillion getting moved by more than 300 institutional clients with Hidden Road.
And that RLUSD is going to literally be the transactional settlement layer.
So just putting stablecoins front and center from a flow standpoint,
I really think that's the biggest thing we're seeing is we know there's so many exciting things we can do with stable coins and whether they're representative of things like we just heard from Maroka on.
But ultimately, I think just looking at where the biggest impact is right now, we're just seeing the flow of money, right?
Like where we can get that flow of money.
that flow of money. And I think Ripple saw that with that acquisition. So that's huge. Of course,
And I think Ripple saw that with that acquisition.
So that's huge.
stablecoins will continue to be the fuel of RWAs, the OG of RWAs. And obviously,
they are going to continue to be that way. But I think that's where we're going to see the biggest
impact. And again, I don't necessarily think it's retail. I think settlements and payments are
coming. And you can pay people through your ENS name,
through Venmo, for example. There's some really cool things that are happening.
But I would say in general, when you're really looking at where the impact is happening,
it's mostly institutional, mostly B2B settlements, even e-commerce companies.
Some of the background in that area, I'd say we just see a lot of the stable coins
opening up there as we're seeing that stable act allow banks to hold crypto.
And particularly, as a few of you mentioned, you know, issuers are going to increase most likely,
or even the adoption of the current issuers across other institutional players, including banks. So
yeah, I'm really excited about it. I think the biggest thing is stablecoins. I think that by far is the biggest opportunity. And lastly, I think say the other thing that
is always a clear topic here is we're seeing more issuers. We're seeing more on-chain
yield that I would say is actually relevant and real. And that I'd say is really interesting.
You know, our like network, you know, we're opening up more of our family office network.
And I'd say like just, you know, cash is king, right?
And ongoing returns is king.
So I think one of the biggest things that we're focusing on is connecting that real world yield that now is issued on chain and connecting that up with the allocators that are looking to get access to it.
Absolutely. Phenomen phenomenal points, man.
And I mean, we talked last time in the space about kind of private markets and how those
private markets opening up are huge.
It's a massive opportunity.
And the fact that that's happening is, you know, it's all in the back of stable coins.
And that acquisition you mentioned of Hidden Road, which is not such a hidden acquisition,
massive acquisition by Ripple, underpins a lot. It goes to show kind of where things are moving
in terms of the industry. So phenomenal takes. I want to do a quick reset, let everyone know.
Definitely follow everyone on the panel. Amazing conversation so far. Make sure to like and
retweet the space. We want to get this out to as many people as possible. And we have a stacked
panel today. We're looking at like close to 12 people. So I want to make sure everyone gets a chance to grab the mic and say some things. So let's try to
keep it to like one to two minutes that we can get around the room. This is probably the most
people we've had on the panel in a while. So stoked for it. So we'll keep rolling with stable
coins. Absolutely loving it. We have a new friend with us today, Corium Labs. Corium,
how are you doing? Great to have you with us. Curious as to your thoughts on stable coins.
Are they stable? Are they they coins are they going anywhere hey guys pleasure to be here elwen from uh from
corium labs um that that's actually a good question um i think stable quite i mean definitely the
the payment rails for awa's um um definitely uh what we're doing at Corium Lab
is it's building the centralized application
on the Corium network.
The first thing that we are tackling actually right now
is not directly LWA, but it is related to solving
the UX fragmentation problem.
So not 100% related to stablecoin right now but um what we're trying
to do is make sure that stablecoin can flow from every chain um as easy as possible so stablecoin
definitely preventable for awa but something really important as well um from our of our point
of view is to make sure that they can be used seamlessly and flow from
one blockchain to another without barrier. Oh man, you are speaking my language. I recently
tried to participate in an airdrop as someone who is, you know, I use DeFi. I'm not a DeFi native,
but oh man, it was like
pulling teeth while standing on my hands. Luckily, I finally got it, but it took all morning just to
figure out how to go from one chain to another. I mean, arguably a bank transfer would have been
easier, but definitely if tokenized assets are going to take off, that's one of the benefits
they bring to the table is that they do have kind of that centralized flair made a little bit easier.
But Corey, fantastic to have you with us, my friend.
Let's continue to rock and roll around the room.
Awesome panel today.
We got our friends from AssetMantle back with us.
How are we doing?
Great to have you.
Curious as to your thoughts on stable coins.
How is that factored into what you're doing
and what's your opinion on these little stable things
that are basically defining tokenized assets so far?
First of all, would like to say'm really excited to be on this panel and
be able to answer this question. Hey everyone, we are from AssetMantle and basically what,
in a single word, we are assetizing, providing assetization infrastructure across like institutional assets which are
supposed to unlock closer to 30 trillion dollars of value by 2030. uh how uh we see regulations uh
is uh basically the uh taking a first principles approach you would have to think that what is the
regulation for regulation is basically for investor protection.
Protecting your general investor from any kind of variance that's available in the market
because of some kind of manipulation or some kind of like meditated attack of sorts.
attack of sorts so uh if that is the primary purpose of regulations uh what are they then
looking at like what are the three key components or levers they will use to uh execute this first
is uh making certain threshold uh lower so that more the market uh like opens up for such kind of like financial products to be
you know to be accessible to the mass markets and second would be
standardization. Standardization what we have done is basically we have created
a standard with W3C you can go over to internft.io, which is our standard body,
which we have found with a bunch of other ecosystem partners,
where we have helped standardize the general way of representing all of these assets.
Let it be data, let it be RWS, it be uh any kind of other etfs as well so uh uh that is
how we help in this uh you know help the regulators come to a consensus on how to roll out these
financial products so we are kind of doing a proactive role over here kind of uh going ahead with it and again uh like uh
uh we have seen we are seeing traction in the southeast asian markets uh but uh from a pov of
being have been in this market for close to seven years now uh i see that uh any kind of a stable coin should only be handled ideally uh either by regulators or like
people who actually like transmit that amount of like uh uh volumes in a day currently so your jp
morgans of the world and the market makers in the world are definitely the ones who should be handling stable coins and and i think that is a step that has already like started uh and we are saying seeing that with the jp morgan's
onyx which is an offering which is for fds and is being currently used to uh ship close to uh you
know like more than 500 billion dollars of volume last year.
So they are going in the right direction
and they are really close to what we are talking about here.
So yeah, I think all in all,
we are going in a positive direction.
100%, very well said.
Definitely echo the sentiment in terms of JP Morgan's Onyx. They actually
recently rebranded it as Kinex, which is kind of hard to spell. It's like an X and a Z in there.
But they cleared like a trillion in volume with their JPM coin. So they are off to the races in
terms of processing some of these transactions using their blockchain infrastructure. So they're
not sleeping on the asset tokenization grind.
I'm really stoked to have some homies from JP Morgan
subscribe to the RWA World Newsletter,
which by the way, shameless self-plug, you can be too.
But with that said, again, Statch Panel, amazing people.
Definitely give everyone here a follow
and want to keep this rolling
in terms of the stablecoin conversation.
I would love to get Ryan's opinion.
Ryan, I know you're doing some awesome work with gold,
but I'm curious, how do you feel about dollars, about these stable coins making their way into every corner of the financial system?
Absolutely. Well, thank you, first of all, Ray and Wolf for the invite. I always appreciate the invite.
Let me give you let me let me answer that question and tell us a quick story.
Let me let me answer that question and tell us a quick story.
In 2020, me and my company got involved in minting gold, which which if you understand minting gold, you take it from a large format and you turn it into a smaller format, many times coins.
And by turning it into a smaller format, you actually increase the value of that coin.
Well, we created we created our mint and we generated large, large amounts of coins each and every day.
In a few months, we would go through $35 million in gold and silver.
And when we did that, I realized that people want real world assets like gold, but you can only do
so much with gold. You can only store it in so many places. You can only put it under your mattress and you can only put it in so many safes before you've got too much, too uncomfortable
about it. So I'm a real example of a real world asset getting involved. And I took the gold and
I said, look, let's wrap it. Let's take a cryptocurrency and let's back it with gold and silver. Or silver or commodity, any precious metal.
Give them access to it on the blockchain.
And I think that – I mean, stablecoin is the topic of the day because he takes stable assets and putting them on chain is an incredible,
incredible innovation. And I know it's, I know it's not novel, but we're still at the forefront.
And I think that, I think that real W real world assets are really actually growing up the
industry. They're taking, they're taking the, the, the, the space and they're saying, okay,
let's put something legitimate behind it. And I think
that there's a lot of people, JP Morgan, who, everybody on this panel that's starting to,
you know, plow the ground for those of us that want to come in and acquire real world assets
digitally. And, you know, kudos to everyone for doing it. Now to regulations really quickly,
because I know you said one minute, but to regulations really quickly. I think in the States, there's a clear path for me.
And so we're going to focus on the States. And then when we understand Micah, we'll go into
those other countries. But regulations, they stifle growth because we could have done what we wanted to do a long time
ago, but we spend so much time and effort and money on trying to figure out these regulations.
So hats off to the regulators saying that stable coins are exempt because we're off to the races.
Now we're going and we're off the races. Anyway, thank you for the time, Ray. I appreciate the
panel and the opportunity to be on here, Wolf. Absolutely. Ryan, always great to have you with us,
my friend. And see, this is the value of having a 3,600 pound single silver boulder in a hand-dug
cellar underneath your house that no one's going to know, no one's going to take it, and you are
the custodian. But you can't do anything with it. It's just kind of hanging out there. So
absolutely fantastic points in terms of bringing things on chain, making it more transactable.
And would love to jump to the DMs and talk about how like minting actually works that's just something i
don't know much about and i'm a huge nerd for this kind of stuff so awesome to have you with this as
always my friend um want to keep it rolling and get it over to edwin edwin i know you're doing
some amazing stuff on chain curious how stable coins may factor into what you're working on
yeah so thanks very much i met with matt the CEO and co-founder of Recon. We are talking about the tokenization platform. So for me personally, I think the best use case in blockchain is stablecoins. Just like whoever invented that at the beginning or whoever thought that, I mean, it's a genius because like we wouldn it on chain and start transacting for whatever you want.
Even all utility tokens.
Yeah, I mean, they're volatile, but you need to have something packed just to make things real because that's what we are.
Yes.
Now, regarding the regulation, I'm going to step in here and put my little lawyer hats and say, like, regulation is definitely crushing European innovation. I'm based in Spain, and all we hear about is kind of like the GDPR, the MECA,
and all this great regulation is like, oh, that's going to bring the corporate.
And yeah, I mean, in some sense it is, but they're always trying to, like,
block little enterprises or startup to be able to do all the things to be able to compete
at the level that they're supposed to, right? So now even they're starting to deregulate. The other day they say like, oh,
GDPR, we should start deregulating because we started to understand that we were choking
innovation in the startup because they can't compete with the macro corporations who can be
compliant and who can do all these processes. So I mean, all in for deregulation.
I mean, it's not about creating like a wild west rodeo.
I mean, you can still put some rails in it, but overregulating just to satisfy the needs
of the compliant levels of the banks or all this institution is ludicrous.
That is why there's a huge exodus of companies here in Spain or well in Europe going through
other regions just because we cannot
compete even with MECA and stable coins like it said like only EU based they don't have a volume
transaction or a limit on what to do but everything else that is not euro backed they can only transact
like 200 million per day or 1 million transactions which is ludicrous like we don't even know what is
the capabilities of what we're building, but you're already
putting rails.
So it's like, that's going to deter competence.
Yeah.
What you guys are doing is putting the European in a little niche so they can compete with
the rest of the world.
Because let's not forget that Europe was thought to be a powerhouse, but lately, all we talk
about Europe base is kind of like, oh yeah, regulation,
regulation. I don't hear the financial or the commitments that in other parts of the world
they're doing. So I think regulation, it's yes, you need to put rails, but also do not
choke innovation because what we're doing here is innovating and creating new financial markets
and capital. So we have to really consider if it's positive or
negative well just my opinion no fantastic thing my friend and then ultimately that uh
choking out of innovation is not something we want to have happen i mean if i if i was clever
and also a little bit machiavellian and i knew that my competitor was um using dollar stable
coins and had a one million transaction limit i I may or may not send 999,000
sub one cent dollar transactions
on their network as quickly as I possibly can
at the beginning of the day.
But that's just me
and probably anyone thinking ahead
if you're going to be competing
on dollar stable coins in the EU.
So point being, fantastic points as always, Edwin.
And definitely, as I mentioned a couple of times now,
give everyone a follower. We're having some great dialogue here, some great takes. These are as I mentioned a couple of times now, give everyone a follow.
We're having some great dialogue here, some great takes.
These are the folks building the future of tokenized assets
and give them a follow
because you want to keep up with what they're doing.
Would love to get Karin, your opinion, my friend.
I know you're doing some great stuff on chain as well.
Excuse me.
The burrito, it strikes back.
I want to get your thoughts in terms of stable coins
and how it factors into what you're building.
Yeah, I mean, kind of the core we're building, right?
Like the premise of my entire business is if you're a stable coin holder of any denomination,
you can trivially pledge those stables to a global capital lake that will then go and
support any insurance company in the world in return for economics driven off of the premiums that
are paid by tens of millions of people.
And so it's going.
It's pretty exciting to see a world in which we are now the heroes and we are not on the
chopping block at any given moment in time.
So threading the needle for us has been kind of cathartic.
Yesterday, we announced one of our first partnerships with Thena.
And so if you're a holder of USDE or SUSDE,
we can now treat those stable coins as a reserve asset.
And, you know, if you're going to continue to earn the risk-free
or basis trade return, you know, by holding USDE, you can.
And if you stake it to insurance companies around the world, you earn a risk premium over top of that.
And, you know, our view of this is you can do this with any stablecoin that is, you know, has been battle tested and is of reasonably good quality and is collateralized appropriately.
And so what we've been working on for the last couple of years is really starting to come to a
head. And so our goal here is end the year. We're about 150 million in top line, end the year around
400. And I think that is an achievable goal, especially with some of the partnerships we're locking down.
So if you are a holder of USD or SUSD, check it out.
I love it, fantastic stuff you're working on my friend.
And absolutely, everyone should go check out the REIT platform.
There's some amazing stuff
that they're working on over there.
We also have our friend at T-Rise here,
I believe it's Eduardo.
Is that you behind the account, my friend?
Always good to have you.
Curious, how's it going? And also how how does stable coins factor into the awesome stuff you're working
on hello ray hello everyone it is eduardo here as always a pleasure to be in the house
and table coins it makes me think of real world currency not really real world assets and
it makes me think of real world currency, not really real world assets. And I'm going to explain.
So yeah, stable coins are the backbone of the crypto market nowadays, right? I don't think
anyone here disagrees. There's a clear need for it in crypto. It allows one to be only in Web3
and not go back and forth with the old ways but it's not just crypto tokenized real world assets
can also leverage stable coins it's obvious too you want to use them to pay for the tokens that
are tokenized so they are here to stay but at the same time you need clarity and what can be done
with them and what are the real ones what can be done with them and what are the real ones, what can be done with them. Like for example, me, Eduardo, I could create the Eduardo coin and start pushing it out there to you,
but you're probably not going to bother with it. Like, what is Eduardo coin?
Why do I want, is it a scam? It's a spec to what? Like, right.
So it's different from a security token like the VZ tokens from
Vision87, this is the first
project that we tokenized through the
T-Rise platform
we locked the 23 million TVL
that's available on DeFi Lama
and this
project has a lot of documentation
follows the regulations
for tokenized assets.
And there is a connection with the real world
that is written in the blockchain.
So the documentation is there and it's available for people.
So it's different from Eduardo Coy, which is nothing.
So, by the way, I'm talking here about some real estate new construction, right?
I don't think real estate is stable.
I wouldn't call these tokens stable coins or stable tokens.
I would call them resilient, resilient tokens.
To me, real estate is a resilient class of asset.
Anyway, I think it's just like Edwin was saying, like the
difference between these two examples that I give is the pegging. It's the link to the real world.
So before finishing my thoughts with stable coins, I think of other crypto assets. First one that
comes to my head is usually Ethereum. And you see, Ethereum is extremely complex to regulate because it's one token.
Yeah, sure. It's Ethereum, but it can be multiple things at different times or by different people.
So to make this concrete, like one person can have Ethereum as a security.
They just invest in it and they lock it somewhere. And that's it. It's an investment.
The same person or someone else might use it as a commodity to pay for some transaction fees.
The same person or someone else might use it as a commodity to pay for some transaction fees.
And someone else or maybe the same person on another day might use it as collateral or as a payment.
Or I don't know, they lock it on another smart contract.
So you see like tokens, they can be super complex to regulate because they can be multiple things at the same time or at different times.
It's a dynamic system.
So this leads me to opinate that stable coins,
they need their own regulations as they represent something from the real world.
And it's not just like invented stuff like Eduardo coin.
And whatever they are, as long as we have regulations
I think it's a step forward
as a technology expert
I can only
wish that these regulations
they would include mandatory
oracles like I would
like to see like
for stable coins to be official
let's say official
they would need some integration with oracles
that the users, we can independently verify that,
oh, they claim that it's pegged, it's backed by something.
Okay, let's see the reserves.
Let's see if they are there.
So these are my two cents about the subject.
I love it, man.
Great takes as always.
I want to say, though, I would buy Eduardo coin.
I don't think, even though many people wouldn't, I would have a couple, just in case.
Colin, I saw you unmute, my friend.
Curious to get your take on what Eduardo shared.
Yeah, well, I was just going to double click.
Maybe just like a slight permutation, slight disagreement on what Eduardo said.
I think when it comes to blockchain applications, it's important to remember that fundamentally when we're talking about money, let's say Bitcoin, trustlessness is possible with Bitcoin because of how Bitcoin is backed with proof of work and with the encryption and with the decentralization.
Trustlessness is not a thing in securities.
You're trusting someone somewhere, right?
Like even if you have an Oracle, even if you have the ability to go look at the documentation,
documentation can be faked. Come on.
Like that's not that's not hard. Right. So when we're,
when we're thinking about these applications, right, where the risk arrow is pointed is really,
really critical. And it's important. I think that we have a distinction between something like a
digital and new form of money, like Bitcoin, at least that's how I, that's how I conceive of it
versus an asset like a stock or a bond or an equity or private credit, whatever it is, where there is at some point trust is entering the mix.
It is not hard to write an ERC contract that would satisfy securities regulations in most modern jurisdictions.
You get that done over the weekend for a few thousand dollars.
It is not hard to fake data and park it in a metadata module on any of the large and well-known chains as well as the up-and-coming ones, right?
Those things all happen.
But at the end of the day, if you're talking about owning a financial instrument of some variety and we're not talking about Bitcoin or money, yeah, we're talking about two different things, right?
And so I just think it's important that we're talking about two different things right and so I think it's
I just think it's important that we're pragmatic and realistic right this is where regulation does
enter the mix right I mean I appreciated what Edwin your point about you know sort of like
regulation right the purpose of regulation is not to protect incumbent players it's to protect
investors right but look in business school business school, we studied this.
The regulatory moat is a strong one. And if you can bend it to your advantage, that is at least
a business practice worth considering to most people. Regulations are a thing. And if you can
build up that moat around yourself and not others, that most likely will accrue value to you. Now,
that destroys competition. It usually means services get worse and prices go up. But that is a thing, right? So I just wanted to double click on that. Back to you, Ray.
Fantastic points, as always, my friend. Yeah, that's not a lawnmower you hear outside. That's
actually regulation cutting down the competitive advantage of small businesses. Just kidding,
it's totally a lawnmower. But always great points, man. Aroka, I see your hand up. Would
love to get your thoughts on this as well. Thank you. Yeah. What I wanted to say is, as a reply to Colin, we all use stable
coins and we've been using them since 2014. And they are exactly as you said, something that you
trust. Paolo is holding money in some bank account somewhere
for you on that USDT he's given you. Am I not correct? Is this not a centralized system?
Is this not exactly an RWA? So in that sense, once we have more, let's say,
Once we have more, let's say, more regulated banks, we work with a few very regulated European banks.
I won't name names right now, but the banks we work with and send API data to our trustees,
which then sign on Chainlink on that proof of reserve, that's hard to fake. I mean,
it's not unconceivable that it could be fake, but it's harder to fake. And we're putting in systems
that would make this trust better and transparency better and proof of reserve and backing assets and
over collateralization. And all of these in a regulated ecosystem
is a better solution than what's happening right now. So right now, everybody has stable coins,
which may or may not be backed. That's what I have to say.
Oh, I fully agree with you. Yeah, I was just making the point about the fact that trustlessness
is, you know, when you're talking about assets such as RWAs, trustlessness is not a thing.
There's trust somewhere.
And so, okay, who maintains the use that you mentioned, Chainlink?
Who maintains the Oracle connection for the off-chain data to the on-chain activity?
Okay, well, you're trusting Chainlink.
That's great.
Chainlink is a great company.
Colin Cunningham, the other head of VizDev, is a close personal friend of mine.
I'm not decrying that or demeaning that by any means. I'm just pointing out that it's there. 100%. And two Collins?
Chainlink is not the one signing on the data. Sorry to stop you. Chainlink doesn't sign on the
data. Chainlink is a blockchain and technology provider so they don't have anything
to do with the data they have oracles but once you do proof of reserve you basically have a trustee
or third party looking at your bank account or bank accounts and reserves and signing on that
and then signing that on chain totally got it to be technical no No, no, it's good. Enron had one of the best accounting
firms on the planet before they collapsed that were, that were signing statements saying, yeah,
no, they're, yeah, they're good. I'm just, I agree. Arthur Anderson was a top four firm before Enron.
I mean that like, that was a thing. So I'm just, the only point I'm making is just that, yeah,
that we, that trust still exists. And so where you place that trust becomes really critical.
The examination of the party
and making sure that they are worthy of your trust,
super critical.
100%.
The only trustlessness that exists in securities
is securities that you maybe trust less than others,
such as Enron.
Maybe they should have launched Enron coin.
It could have potentially pulled them back from the brink.
But at different times, different stipulations.
With that said, one of the considerations for stable coins, a really great article, came out at CoinTelegraph.
It was talking about how stable coins need to rethink what backing really means.
So very prescient and very relevant to what we're talking about here.
There's talk about gold coming back into the mix,
being a potential backer for stablecoins.
Naturally, these things could kind of be backed by anything.
But the point is, the thing to underline with kind of a broad,
a really bold font here is that it should be backed by something.
So curious as to folks' thoughts in terms of where we're going with stablecoins,
in terms of their backing in the future.
Like, is it going to be, you know, treasuries treasuries is going to be commodities could it be any number of things
really curious as to where we see stable coins kind of going and do they need to be backed or
not um ryan i want to get your take on this because i know you're uh you're close to the fire or i
guess close to the uh the mentor in this case uh yeah and my wi-fi is terrible, so I apologize, gentlemen. Yeah, so I believe that there's a lot of place for any real-world asset to be on chain.
I even think that once you take a real estate or you take an equity or you take a commodity and you put it on chain, you've also created something that can then be used for things like,
now don't get me wrong,
don't hold me accountable for this,
but you could even use it for like meme coins.
It's like your Solana meme coins are backed by USD.
And when people cash out of their meme coins,
they're cashing out into USD.
Why not cash out into a real estate project?
Why not cash out into gold?
I mean, there's a place for stable coins.
There's a place for this real world tokenization almost everywhere.
And it's awesome that people are adopting it.
It's awesome because there's such an opportunity for us early adopters, for us developers,
for the people that are getting involved on the ground level and plowing these new grounds,
as I said earlier.
But yeah, I think there's huge, huge upside to stable coins.
And I think you can put anything on chain and then start to trade and barter with that.
Great take, my friend.
Absolutely.
I want to keep this rocking and rolling.
Corey, I'm having heard from you in a minute.
Curious as to your thoughts on stablecoins.
Do they need to be backed by anything?
And where do we see the future going in terms of what might back them?
Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, stablecoins, it's an irritability way, right? It's the tokenization of most of the time treasury bills, right?
which is a bond.
Which is a bond.
So, and what is, to take what Eduardo was saying,
it's easy to tokenize those assets
because it's pretty easy to do the peg, right,
between the on-chain asset,
which is, for example, USEC or USET
and what you actually have in custody with Paxos, for example.
So I think the big thing for all those other stablecoins, whatever it is, gold or it is,
might be easier with stock though, but everything that is tangible is how do you
custody them and how do you make sure that there is this peg,
whatever it is through an oracle, maybe like an oracle that is
an official oracle that everyone will have to use
and that will submit this on ChainProof.
But for now, that is pretty much what is hard to see for us,
like in terms of making this peg with any type of assets.
Absolutely.
Fantastic points.
And stable coins are such a funny nomenclature
just for the reason that stability is relative, right?
If you have a stable coin that's pegged
to a dynamically weighted basket of commodities,
metatrack the CPI.
And ultimately, it is stable to your purchasing power, but maybe not so stable to the dollar.
So seeing that kind of ebb and flow and bob and weave kind of throws the whole notion of stability into a foray, you could say.
It's kind of like being stable on a ship's deck while the ship is bobbing up and down.
Sure, you're stable as stable can be, but the whole thing is moving, and that's a little wonky.
Travis, would love to get your take as well, my friend.
Are we going to have stable coins backed by everything under the sun, or do they need to be backed by anything at all?
Yeah, a lot of great takes here.
I think the one thing I'll bring up, and I know Colin can speak to this even in more detail, but I think
obviously treasuries are going to be a natural fit here probably forever, indefinitely. But
when it comes to yield-bearing stablecoins, I think it's worthy of bringing up YLDS,
the figure market stablecoin that's on provenance. I know Colin is much more capable of talking about
this, but I think looking at that as the first SEC registered stablecoin, it's worthy of bringing
this topic up just because how it's backed is interesting as well. And it follows obviously
being regulated by SEC. So that's kind of an interesting aspect, I'd say, just because they're putting this into multiple assets that are yield-bearing, some of which would be treasuries, of course, and money market funds.
But I think that's an interesting aspect.
I mean, we talk a lot about these opportunities.
And in this case, it is a yield-bearing asset, and it is registered with the SEC.
So you can say the word yield.
So I think that's interesting.
And I think, you know, to the point Ryan made, I mean, we were seeing a big resurgence of gold in particular with commodities backing stable coins.
And I think that will probably become a thing.
I mean, we're not really seeing it actually become much of a thing yet, but I'd say that I certainly wouldn't be
surprised if it becomes a thing. 100%. I was fortunate enough to be able to make the joke
a couple of spaces ago where if we do have stablecoins backed by other assets, such as cattle,
if they're backed by cattle, do they have to be proof of stake
i think so intrinsically but either way i want to be able to redeem some points for some stakes
that'd be pretty cool um i want to get edwin's take on this as well edwin do you think these
things thank you thank you thank you i'll be here all week i love it i want to get your take as well
edwin hey sorry i i didn't hear because i thought that could happen no no worries everyone's very
supportive of my dad jokes it seems i'm just curious to see your thoughts uh do these stable coins need to
be backed by anything um and if so what do you see primarily remaining backed by treasuries or maybe
a more diverse basket of assets over time i mean theoretically speaking they should right but then
we use currencies that they say it's backed but then you don't know if the printing just went on
so i mean it's a matter of like somebody was saying before it's a but then you don't know if the printing just went on so i mean it's a matter of
like somebody was saying before it's a matter of trust i mean are we gonna go and legitimately audit
and say that everything is there i mean we're still looking for ellen musk for uh going to
fortnax to see if the goal is there right but he didn't win and people got nervous so i don't know
i mean theoretically speaking it should definitely because that's kind of like the
currency if it's not back and it's thin air and it's just printable then everything just becomes
a big problem so i mean i don't want to over say things that i think right now about that thing
because it's it's very sensible but without a single doubt i mean the used currency that we
use on every day for transactions cross border and and everything, I mean, it has to be real.
But then thinking out loud nowadays, what is truly real when you can just go on a computer and click enter and then suddenly you have X amount of zeros, even banks do that.
Do all the money that we deposit in our bank accounts and they use in the bank for whatever, do they add more?
I mean, are they also audited at that point?
I mean, we don't know if even the banks allegedly have all the money that they say they do.
And even exchanges, do they have all the Bitcoin that they say they have?
I mean, we have a lot of here things that we are on the very thin line of trust.
And we don't want to overlook because if something is not there, then a lot of things will crumble.
100%. Very well said, my friend.
I'm a firm believer that Elon did go to Fort Knox.
He didn't find the gold, but he did find the aliens.
Boom. Let's put that on Polymarket and see what happens there.
All right. Asset Mantle, curious as well, your thoughts on the topic here.
Do stable coins need to be backed? And if they do, will they be backed primarily by dollars
or can we get maybe something else in the mix?
That's a great question. See, predominantly, I think the answer is always yes, that stablecoins should be backed by an asset that is recognized by each and every one of us universities. i think uh which uh like even our currencies currently uh you're talking about usd you can
talk about other currencies uh who like uh see a lot of traffic today the only reason for them is
that currently they have certain amount of treasury and the second which is back backing
their currency and absorbing all the price like variances that are happening while also having utility in terms of exchange for commodities and providing value from that end. So any currency that is providing this value, right, will be the one that will predominantly
become the backing for the stable coin.
So I feel it's not a question of this versus that, but more about who's providing more value.
100% excellent points, my friend.
I, for one, am working on a bur burrito backed stablecoin because that was phenomenal. And if my wife keeps making those, then I'm going to have to issue a burrito
coin. They can go with Eduardo coin. I think that'd be perfect. Definitely want to also get
Nino, our friends over there, your opinion regarding this topic. I know we're talking a
lot about regulation. Do you think that regulation will mean that stablecoins must retain their backing? And if so, is that relegated only to fiat currencies
like the euro and the dollar? Do you think we'll see some more spicy options coming onto the market
soon enough? Great question. Generally, I believe there will be a lot of spicy options and a lot of
tries to find an optimal system and design an optimal system personally i
do believe um that if we are treating a stable coin is actually just a representation of another
currency like whether it be a euro or the dollar on chain it should actually be backed by the same
currency on the other side and it better not be too over collateralized um
whether it be actual feared in an account or whether it be a bond that has to be seen because
i don't like a future where we can have backing um by things that are on the one hand not 100
verifiable on the other hand not too tangible and also kind of
volatile in the way they behave or in the way that you can essentially value the amount of
backing that there is let's say let's hypothetically speak about a real estate backed stablecoin
that could lead to some big implications in the future because there's no real way to verify the actual
value of the real estate you would back a stable coin to and especially not in a trustless system
so increasing the complexity in terms of the backing of a stable coin just leads to so many
more kind of um points in the chain where the chain could break and where you are basically fully dependent on
trust trusting someone who audits the financials trusting um the regulatory framework that is there
or just um trusting that the backing that is written is actually there which at the end of
the day just opens the door for so many things to fail and crumble down the road like we've seen
that offer so many things to fail and crumble down the road like we've seen already much times in the past
where money was told to be in the books but the books did not add up and then some of the biggest corporations
start to break apart and this is the risk we run into with stable coins if we start backing them
with a lot of random things that we can't actually verify.
So the verifying part in my end is the most important one.
And so far, I mostly see it with actually backing them to the currency they represent on chain, to be honest.
Absolutely fantastic points.
It definitely stands to reason that the more complex the backing,
the more points of failure you have, because ultimately you could have a dynamically weighted
stable coin peg to a basket of commodities. But what happens if you've popped all the corn,
you drank all the wine, you made the cows into steaks? Well, ultimately, those are three points
of failure that mean that, yeah, you had a great time, but all of a sudden your stable coin has a
lot less backing.
So, you know, fantastic thoughts, fantastic points there.
Want to get it over to Karn.
Keep the conversation rolling here, Karn.
Your thoughts on potentially the stablecoins requiring backing?
Could we have something unbacked?
And if no, do you think the backing must maintain, you know,
a fiat backing or could it be something a little more diverse?
Yeah, I mean, look, I don't know how the market's gonna shake out,
but you can kind of observe
what the market is doing today, right?
Which is, hey, you look at Sky,
they've got their star and their points ecosystem,
which is primarily been invested in the risk-free asset,
which is like cash.
And they're starting to move up the risk curve into,
I think they just announced an allocation of maple, which is like cash and they're starting to move up the risk curve into i think they just
announced an allocation of maple which is like high yield fixed income um if you look at tether
you know these guys are out there buying like sports teams and things like that uh in probably
with their retained earnings as opposed to their dollar their denominated uh surplus
as opposed to their dollar denominated surplus.
If you're looking at, you know,
Athena, for example, dollar denominated,
but a big part of the return is driven by the basis trade.
And if it's not a positive funding rate,
then it's flipping back to risk-free.
It's, we're kind of just an experimentation land
at this point.
You know, the safest route is clearly just dollar for dollar, full collateralization.
And then I guess the question becomes like, if there is a cash flow stream to the stablecoin
issuer and there's this, maybe it's not retained earnings, but a similar concept of retained
earnings, how exactly are they allowed to deploy that? And I guess if you've already got full
collateralization
any excess over top probably you know you should probably give pretty significant leeway to do uh whatever you want with by by your sports teams or uh whatever whatever is you feel is necessary
it's going to be pretty much dictated you know i think we're going to have stablecoin legislation
as like pretty pretty in the direction of like you need full collateralization and
anything beyond full collateralization you have, you got to do whatever you want with.
And I think that's how the market's going to shape up. But we are in a part of the cycle where
folks are experimenting with, hey, where do we live along risk-free to, you know, some risk on position and, you know,
buying parts of each other and doing a lot of interesting
coopetition. So my view is conservatism,
but, you know, the market might bear a different view.
Fantastic. Fantastic takes, my friend.
Travis saw your hand go up. I want to toss it
over to you. And then I believe we're at time. This hour absolutely flew by, but Travis definitely
want to get your thoughts. Yeah, really great takes. I mean, I would just add one aspect to,
I think, some of the spicy things. I mean, we are in the crypto digital asset space, so naturally
it's going to get spicy, right? Are they going to work? Maybe not, probably not. There's probably going to be a lot of
crash and burns, but I think there are going to be interesting aspects where
you could have mortgage backed securities. I think even figure markets is doing this with
some of their, the figure division for all their home equity line of credits. And they're doing
almost 20% of all the U S home equity line of credit. And the buyers
of their mortgage-backed securities are BlackRock, Chase, the usual suspects. So I think
there are really interesting areas where I think there will be niche stablecoin-back type of assets.
So that's my two cents. I think we will be probably surprised at some of the spiciness that comes out of this.
No, 100 percent, man. And spicy, indeed, it is.
It's one of those things where, you know, and this is the last thing I will leave you all with the idea of the Onions Futures Act in the United States.
Why do you see all commodities futures except for onions in the U.S.?
Well, someone actually bought literally all of the onions in the 1950s, cornered the market and literally had rotten onions all over Chicago.
And it was a whole debacle.
They passed an act that said, no, no more onions futures.
So while that may sound comical and crazy, keep in mind some guy named Do Kwan did issue a stable coin back by nothing, promising 20% APY and blew up the whole thing.
So we are very much in an experimental phase.
It is a very, very exciting times.
And I want to underline that if you are listening
and you can hear my voice,
follow all the people that are on stage here today.
These are the folks who are blazing a trail,
building out front and ensuring that,
hey, tokenization is going to work
because we're going to play by the rules,
help to make the rules
and ultimately define what history will look back upon
as a very crucial pivotal moment where we migrate from paper, pens, and really analog systems into the future of asset
management. So super exciting stuff. I've been your host, Ray Buckton. You can find me at rwa.world.
Subscribe to our newsletter. Highly recommend it. You can join the ranks of the DTCC, ECB,
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