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Roham & Flow putting Consumer DeFi on the map Coffee w/ Captain #1,045
Recorded: Dec. 4, 2025 Duration: 2:16:01Space Recording
Short Summary
The conversation highlighted significant developments in the crypto space, including the launch of new projects and partnerships, the growth of consumer DeFi, and the increasing acceptance of digital art at events like Art Basel. Key topics included the potential for real estate tokenization, the impact of Ethereum's upgrades on gas fees, and the importance of building user-friendly products to drive adoption.
Full Transcription
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm a professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional.
I'm professional. I'm professional. I'm professional. I'm, now I'm on web 3, and it is what it seems, topping the pyramid schemes,
I'm telling ya, I sell you a percentage on nebula, shout out to Vince, yo set it up.
Surfing on the web and I'm shooting at 3, I've been goaded when I got my T, I'm an
alien boy, from a different planet, yeah, so I got my drink, I'm riding in the 1920s
Model T Ford, car, era, Lord, call me Levi, playing
on the keys, what?
And I'm about to put my gloves on, if I said it, then I meant that, yeah, I like that one,
I'm about to get that, crash that whip for the drumsticks, whiplash, I'm about to get
them all, are you with that, in a white boat, surrounded by blue, I want one, but I got
a cop turned, I wanna fly high in the sky, arms out wide, trying to soar, I'm a bird type view
I'm on fire, Ricky Bobby, cracking the pavement, Whitney Bobby
I'm a Saki Bomb, Hiroshima, Nagasaki
Bruce Wayne been a dog, and I keep it 101
Cause I'm feeling kinda spotty
Sipping on Ciroc and I'm sipping out Octane
The only thing around my neck is the black twin, bitch
Now I got coins, I see where y'all going', been poppin' since web 1, hella hooked on web 2, I was livin' a dream on web 3, now it coffee with capi, you know, he won't
buy they local.
I ain't never gonna stop rapping.
Orlando yeah we working magic.
We rocking your theory amenities.
I just went and caught me a half bass.
Man I gotta shut it off with a bitch.
Now I got coin.
I see where y'all going. I just went and caught me a hat bass Started off with a bit Now I got coin
I see where y'all goin'
Been poppin' since web 1
Hella hoops on web 2
I was livin' the dream
Now I'm on web 3
And it is what it seems
Toppin' the pyramid schemes
I'm tellin' ya
I'll sell you a percentage on Nebula
Shout out to Vince, yo, set it up
Breakin' them all to choose one
But they got knowledge to move, son
I'm shakin' in shades with my brother in suits.
Yeah, them blues is coming.
Even though it's hard to pick, any mighty mo.
Soda on the mix, no biting lips.
It's time to go.
Index number one, no thumbs up.
You got to scroll.
Looking at the ghosts in studio.
It's time to go.
Had a helmet on by myself until I met a mask.
Dad wanted to have a face off.
Had to bring my chainsaw.
Full ticket gas in the drive with my brakes off.
I'm a one, but a different kind of stakes off.
Welcome to Coffee with Captain, powered by ApeCoin, where we dive into all things crypto, NFTs, web-free, and cutting-edge technology.
Remember, nothing here is financial advice.
Early-stage tech can be exceptionally volatile and risky.
So grab your coffee and join Cap and C for today's conversation.
Welcome to the future.
Welcome to Coffee with Captain GM.
GM, thanks so much for joining us.
If you're doing so, do us a favor.
I'll send GM in the chat down below in the half-top.
Smash that like, repost a bookmark on today's space.
Greatly appreciate it.
Warms up the algo and does us a real solid.
Glad to see you all out there in the chat already.
I just got an X update this morning,
like minutes before I came on the show.
I'm hoping that my update was just lagging
and that the part of the issue yesterday
was others were on different versions of X
and I just got caught up.
But can I get a quick audio check
before I even get into disclaimers
and cold open
Dobbins door Diablito can any of you flash me a hundred out there thumbs up sounds good I may
have someone else come up on stage if you don't mind just do a quick mic check before we get
rolling make sure it's not just me as far as nobody's abolisher appreciate you all out there
thanks so much you all are. YouTube sounded good as well.
If anyone wants to jump up and do a quick mic check here in a bit, feel free to do so. I'd appreciate it. If not, I'm sure we'll have some guest speaker here momentarily. But we do have
a guest coming up at 9 a.m. If you haven't heard anything, so give us some love on the space. Let's
get this thing warmed up. Go smash the like, repost, and bookmark on the audio spaces. It's
up there pinned up top. You'll also find the YouTube link, the abstract link, and the X video spaces.
And we are back. We are so back. Called bottom the other day. I said 80K was Bitcoin in the 80s,
80,000s was our 16K Bitcoin moment this cycle. And I know we're back now. I got confirmation.
I just heard it on Modern Market. B-Check has finally flipped from bear to bull or at least feeling underexposed to the industry he logs in every day and talks about.
So B-Check and Legendary finally starting to get some FOMO. The spidey senses are going off.
They feel the cycle is not over. We're not going to zero. That said, crypto is risky,
NFTs are risky, meme coins are risky. It all can go to zero. Please don't put any money in
can't afford to lose. Know that I hold tokens about, I'll talk about from time to time.
And I'm not a financial advisor.
I just encourage everyone to full port their 401k into Bitcoin, and that's not recommended.
So don't follow me for financial advice.
Just join us for some fun, some information, maybe a little bit of education along the way.
You will actually get some education today.
I'm excited to talk about our guests.
I genuinely am becoming a very bullish flow in their changes.
Those are my words, not theirs. I said yesterday, I think it might be the most slept on blockchain in all of crypto Twitter.
Excited to have the team on here in a bit to dive into that. But we have other news.
It's been a hopping week in the new streets, maybe bolstered a little bit by Art Basel and all things happening.
Art Basel down in Miami.
I'm hitting the road after the show today.
Looking forward to the pudgy party tonight.
There's an ape after party and might get into a thing or two tomorrow morning.
But just a quick trip.
Day, day and a half trip.
Back at it.
Extremely busy month.
I think I'm going to cancel my... Postpone. Not going to cancel, I'm going to postpone my Costa Rica trip. Just too
much going on in the month of December. And as much as I'd love to research investment property
in Costa Rica, it should probably close on the property I'm in contract in here in the States.
And it's a much bigger project than I typically take on in terms of that realm.
So TBD, but just buzzing down and back and forth with Art Basel.
And we'll see.
We'll see where the month takes me.
But I am bobbing and weaving.
I saw, I'm actually was not expecting all the
i was 50 50 actually if you've missed it 010 or 010 i'm not sure how it's being pronounced
uh down at art basil it's the digital art exhibition first time having this i mean
there's been digital art presence but this is the first time that it's actually been a a focal point and word on the ground I'm excited to see myself but word
on the ground was it is like kind of the talk of Art Basel I know I'm gonna I know I'm an echo
chamber I know it's probably just my timeline, but the exhibitions look vibrant.
The reviews they're getting from the Art Basel account,
the mainstream media, it looks rather promising.
It looks like it's here to stay and hard not to.
I mean, art is always kind of weird.
You know, like you got a banana taped to wall
that sells for millions of dollars
it's not um eccentric maybe is a better word than weird but we level that up when we when our
i don't i don't want to put it on and say people's the spokesperson for the space
but when you have public figures like people whole who are extremely eccentric and he's got his dog robots rolling around there, like it's definitely turning heads and capturing eyeballs. since 2021, 2022, since the NFT mania,
I would say NFTs and probably digital art
felt kind of like all-time low-ish since then,
since the mania,
felt like things had kind of like just down only.
Seems like a little bit of resurgence,
not just Art Basel, but we have,
at Art Basel, we have the Jack Butcher Mint
we talked about yesterday, the receipts or, I we have at Art Basel, we have the Jack Butcher Mint we talked about yesterday.
The receipts or I should call it by proper name.
Let me pull it up just so I'm not misspeaking here.
But we got the Jack Butcher Project.
We got the XCopy Mint Bubbles.
We'll talk about that here in a second.
This Jack Butcher Project is called self-checkout.
You can, I thought yesterday, I think I said you can only
mint in person at the installation, but I think I just saw, yeah, you can, you can check out
on, you can mint something digitally as well, is my understanding. I said, Sport Kiosk One Counter, maybe I'm wrong.
Has anyone minted one of these remotely on chain?
Or do you have to go in person?
Does anyone know?
Let me know in the chat or jump up and talk me through this.
I saw that our guy Imlo out there got a one-on-one beeple.
Congrats on that.
I'm going to put you on the spot.
No obligations if you can't,
but I'd love to hear what that entailed, how you got in the running
for that, how you won it. And I'd like to talk to, I'm heading down
there today, but I would like to hear from someone who's been there and is seeing
am I right? Is my read from
crypto Twitter accurate in the sense that
it seems like digital art's having a moment
at Art Basel, which is kind of a big deal. This vision of the art world's merging and it not
being digital art, but just art. Seemingly, from my perspective, very much in an echo chamber,
seems that we might be having that
convergence of digital art and art and it's just art and digital art is a you know one of the
sectors of of art and respected by the the trad fi art collectors and artists themselves
i could be way off but uh emlo i'll wait till he connects here we'll get the uh we'll get the boots
on the street take take from it.
And again, congrats.
I saw it just flew right in the speaker.
I didn't get the spinny.
No mic.
Are you, is audio working okay?
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Can you hear me?
Hey, we got you.
GM, thanks for jumping up.
Appreciate it.
Congrats on the one-on-one people.
Pretty fire.
I'll pull that up on screen here in a second.
Is my read correct?
Is digital art having a moment at art basil 2025
100 and i'd actually argue that like the most energy that was at the main art basil fair was
coming out of the 010 crypto art galleries in the corner that's exactly my read from afar
from online i just didn't know whether it was solely because, believe it or not,
my crypto Twitter is extremely skewed digital art as opposed to traditional art.
There is some traditional art influence there, but it's very much skewed.
So I didn't know if it was just my echo chamber or actually is what's happening on the ground.
And yeah, it's having a moment.
It's the most vibrant part.
Again, you're hearing it not just from me who's seen it online, but Imlo who's there. It's popping.
Since COVID, there's been a bit of a drop-off between not just attendees, but also galleries that have been bringing their galleries into the main fair.
And there were a drop-off of around 20 different galleries since last year.
So that made room for our crypto galleries to come in and kind of have a moment.
With regards to the Beeple thing,
I must have waited around that pen for around like four hours
until I saw a moment.
I kept scanning QR codes on the ground
until I saw one that said this one has a digital NFT.
And I basically said to Beeple, like, can I have this specific one?
He called me a MFer and then he got it for me.
So I was very happy about that.
But I mean, pure luck mixed with a little bit of conviction, just standing around there and waiting until I saw the right moment.
That's awesome, man.
Well, big congrats.
Congrats. And I got to put up here on screen. If you look at the video,
And I got to put up here on screen if you look at the video.
these are the, this is the, you know, an NFT,
a one-on-one NFT that is essentially representing the people,
robots that are rolling around Art Basel. I mean,
I'm knowing you and you're, you're an artist, you're a collector.
I'm guessing you're vaulting this thing. If do you like,
if you were to say, I mean, first, I i guess is your plans to vault it or are you do
you plan to sell this thing what can i ask i mean right now i have no plans on selling it i think
that it's a nice memento for me and also i think like people's exhibit was probably the most viral
one out of all of the art basil exhibits so the fact that I was able to secure an NFT from that
is really sentimental and special to me. Listen, if I get an offer of like 20 ETH, will I sell it?
I'll definitely consider it if anyone is thinking about it, but like, I don't have a plan right now
to sell it. And I'm just happy that I was able to secure it. That would pay for Art Basel trip,
for sure. I think you're wise, though. I agree.
I think this could – maybe not.
Who knows, right?
I mean, I guess at the end of the day, it's a one-on-one people.
Your downside is limited.
On the other end, I mean, yes, sentimental, cool experience, something you'd like to collect and hold because of that emotional attachment and the actual experience you had there.
On the financial side of this thing,
again, it's a one-on-one people.
The downside's limited.
The upside, if this does end up being a seminal moment for digital art and we look back five years from now
and it's like, today, we still talk about
the $69 million people sale in 2021
that kind of kickstarted NFT mania.
I'm not saying that Art Basel 2025 kickstarts in NFT mania,
but I do absolutely,
I genuinely believe this.
I do believe Art Basel 2025 could jumpstart digital arts,
except more of digital art acceptance in.
Yeah. digital arts except more of digital art acceptance in yeah i i'd say i'd say that right now the walls are being torn down in between quote-unquote digital like crypto art digital art traditional
art all that other stuff and like the labels are kind of going away as people realize that this
movement is part of the future of art in general. And it's one of the most exciting parts of art right now and the past 20
years.
So the fact that we were in the,
we started at house parties a few years ago,
like showing art just to our friends.
And now we're literally in the main stage is,
is a really big coming up moment,
I think for the space in general and
like what's cool also is it wasn't pfps at all like what people would generally think of as nfts
the monkey jpegs and everything else wasn't there it was just pure nft art and people weren't even
necessarily calling it nft art i think like by the way what you were asking about the Jack butcher meant, yes, you can
do it online also.
And also it basically gave people their first NFTs for the price of whatever people put.
So whether they put a dollar or they put a thousand dollars, they got a receipt and got
the seed phrase on it with a, a, a soul bound.
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
So I wasn't even thinking about the new wallet, new soulbound token that's pretty cool i was just thinking which makes sense
um but i i wasn't even i guess i was kind of dunking on the soulbound token i didn't really
love that but i well it's it's because that that part is not supposed to be the speculation part
he wants to like he's jack is a master at driving attention to where he wants to drive it
he doesn't necessarily want to drive it to the flipping of the nfts because he wants everyone
to be able to participate it's open for a week everyone can do it if they want to the you can
pay as low as a dollar you can pay as much as fifty thousand dollars a million dollars however
much you want to spend the the thing is that he wants people to participate the thing the same with the x copy stuff those are all free mints i think most uh active people
in nfts probably were allocated 10 bubbles or whatever it's called but if you're here in person
they have um like anyone that just walks up to the booth gets 100 bubbles so and those go into a
self uh custody wallet that they're they're custodying if you don't want to import it to gets 100 bubbles. And those go into a self-custody wallet
that they're custodian
if you don't want to import it to your own wallet.
So do that.
If you're at Art Basel,
or if you're not at Art Basel,
I would go do one of these jackpots.
You can do it for a dollar.
Maria, thanks for sharing.
She had her virtual mint.
You can go mint one for a dollar.
Yeah, like the downside is so low for minting a jackbutt or for a dollar,
even if it's just a sold out and it's worth it.
Exactly.
And same thing with the X copy.
go get a hundred of them for free.
for one quick question before I move on,
is this,
is mine broken?
Is this how it shows?
Like if I put,
I've just,
any number I put in,
it's,
it's showing base.
It's itemizing that many of them at a dollar yeah
it'll put one dollar per art okay so it's like it's like a cvs receipt yeah and basically the
more you spend about the longer you receive so that's how he differentiates i don't you spend a
million dollars you'd have a million line items of art i don't know if this is if the online is
different online is exactly the same receipt looking Online is exactly the same,
receipt looking.
It looks exactly the same as that.
The NFTs look identical.
You can see these numbers going up.
It started at 949,
then 950,
now it's 951.
If there's less than 1,000 of these
minted thus far,
I mean, it's probably going to be
1,000 for off the show here.
And I know there's more days of Art Basel,
but go get a jack butcher
for a dollar like if they're in the world they're gonna end up being 25 000 of these or more but
and also he can potentially airdrop something to them in the future and one thing jack has done
in in the past has been rewarding his collectors and his supporters so i could easily see him
distributing whatever he auctions like because
he's auctioning off the main um i think he's auctioning off the main system of this whole
thing that's pretty cool so i i wouldn't be surprised if he ended up distributing something
back to people holding the soulbound tokens and that would be a really cool moment like anything
that he makes over the 100k or whatever that he spent on the booth do we know where is this on zora do we know what chain this is minting on
it's on eth i think actually yeah i believe it's on eth mainnet but now now i'm second guessing
that part but it's definitely not on zora they uh jaleel and jack built a custom site called
receipts.vv.xyz i think yeah it is on exactly that's what it is receipts.vv.xyz, I think.
Yeah, it is on, exactly that's what it is, receipts.vv.xyz.
I just didn't know if Zora was, I know Zora has their own minting platform.
I just didn't know if they were white labeling that effectively for custom sites like this.
No, Jack and Jaleel built a custom site for mint for minting NFTs for themselves unrelated to Zora.
So I believe it's,
it's on that self-minting platform.
Pretty cool.
Pretty cool.
Again,
this is not financial advice.
If you're here.
This is life advice.
It's $1 to get a Jack,
but your NF2.
Yep.
This,
this is,
this is life advice.
This is just like I said,
I really like B-check and Legendary
starting to feel like they're underexposed
to ETH and cryptos
because they're here every day
and they're passionate about this space.
If you're here every day,
you're passionate about this space.
Even if you're not a Jack Butcher fan,
even if you're not an X-Copy fan,
go mint a Jack Butcher for a dollar.
Go mint a X-cher for a dollar, go mint a X copy for free. Your risk is a dollar.
I will give you that financial advice. If you can't throw a dollar at a Jack Butcher and an
X copy, a dollar combined, you probably should be doing something else with your time than tuning
into Coffee with Captain. No offense. Maybe nothing nothing comes of it maybe it's just to support the space some like these i
i all let's say all you're getting is the receipt and the bubbles it's still worth it in my opinion
just to get that and to participate and say that you were part of this move and you were here and
you'll be able to always look back 100 years from now 20 years from now whatever and see okay i participated in this thing maybe it's a nothing
burger burger but maybe it's the tipping point to the next stage of our digital art revolution
and if it is so i was saying earlier fast forward five years ten years and people look back and
they're talking about the people art basil display at you display at this 2025 Art Basel.
They're talking about this Jack Butcher display.
And you have that in your wallet.
Maybe it's not even Jack.
I think it will be Jack.
I think Jack, this, I don't think this is the end.
I agree with Imlo that he is very good at maybe the best in the game
as far as gamifying NFT mints.
Really kind of kicked off that meta with Chex, right?
Chex was the first one, or was it Opepun?
Chex came first?
Chex came first and then Opepun.
Chex was an $8 mint and Opepun was free.
They were around the same time, though.
Incredible.
Like, if we look back in 5, 10 years and we're talking about Art Basel 2025,
like we talk about the Beeple $69 million mint, even if Jack never does anything, which again I think he will for these collectors, it's likely a third party does at some point.
but there are already offers on it for more than a dollar.
So you could sell a few of the bubbles and recoup that cost to get the
Jack butcher men.
If that's really what your prerogative is.
Yeah.
I just,
this isn't like you may be thinking now like,
what's a dollar going to turn into?
I'm old enough to remember people one-on-one people's,
or maybe it was as additions.
When I first got like before I had any NFfts politics of bullshit went from one dollar to
100k yep exactly that exactly where i was gonna go when i was in i got it was this isn't i'm not
i'm not glazing our future guests but i started with nba top shot on flow and then i found about
simultaneous i don't know what came first whether it was nifty gateway or zed run but my after top
shot it was zed run Gaming, the digital horses. And
then I was playing around on Nifty Gateway. But entering in some of these, I didn't have like,
I'm not even joking, like my entire crypto budget to start out was like 0.2 ETH. I wasn't buying
art. I wasn't buying mints. I was trying to do bids on, I was entering these $1 raffles on Nifty Gateway,
trying to get a Beeple.
I was playing the gas wars on,
I don't know why I'm drawing,
Ghost, Ghost, Ghost, GXSYT.
Ghost was the actual artist name, right?
Yeah.
Was doing, when he first launched,
like pre all these minting platforms,
he would just, he, she would just drop a NFT,
and it was like .001 ETH or something.
It truly was a gas war to get it,
but there was like 100 of us competing.
Someday I'll tell that story.
I don't want to go down that tangent,
but if I search my Gmailmail for open sea offers i no joke i made of offers on these nfts back then never got a single one and never had
a single ghost i don't know what they trade for now but during the during the the main the ghost
the ghost ones is probably good you skip those well the og ones the ones that were just straight
open sea mints and you had to fight for them like they ran up to, I want to say, 100E.
No, I was saying if you minted them then and then held them until now, I don't know that they're worth much now.
Now, but at the Pico Mania.
Yeah, you could have flipped them at the time for a lot.
And there was people that I was basically my cohorts in the space, the people I was hanging out with in group chat, people that I knew, that was their big win.
They went hard at these things.
They flipped them for collectively hundreds of thousands of dollars, and it set them off on their Web3 career.
It is – maybe not.
It's easy to get excited.
I'm an optimist.
I'm a bull by nature.
The spidey senses are going off, though.
I do think this could very well be a
moment. And if it is a moment, these are the times you want to participate. You want to show that
you're here. Part of the beauty of blockchain technology is five, 10 years from now, Imlo
could tell us that he was at Art Basel 2025. And all I participated, I went to these exhibits
and we could choose to believe him or not believe him. Blockchain doesn't lie.
Like, we don't really know that he was there and minted a Jack Butcher piece.
We also saw he won this one-on-one people.
The only way to get that was being at the exhibit.
Like, I think that's, as we fast forward,
not weeks, not days, not weeks, not months.
So we've had, I mean, maybe, who knows?
Things could happen, things do happen fast here.
But I think certainly if we fast forward years,
I think provenance in on-chain participation
is going to matter big time.
Not just for your OpenSea allocation,
but I'm going to get myself in trouble
with the whole OpenSea.
This is much bigger than any single airdrop,
any single project, any single anything.
This is a whole movement coming together to celebrate art.
And it's really beautiful to see all of the support that the art community has come together to kind of put this show on.
And it's incredible after this very brutal art bear market that we're still here.
We're still around and we're still better back and better
than ever. Yes, I agree. Well said. Well said. I get, I got some questions at what were these
mentioned referring to? I'm going to pin the post up top. I'll go grab those now. I just make sure
I will double check mine to make sure I get the official links, but always make sure you're
clicking proper links. There's like, I love it. Imlo well done today. Really appreciate you coming
up. We have at least, I don't know, maybe a half dozen people
that are going to mint these now
that may or may not have
had they not tuned in.
So I'm not even,
I'm not like blowing smoke.
I'm not patting us on the back.
Although I did call bottom.
I called the Bitcoin bottom.
This is why we do this.
This is why Coffee with Captain originated.
Hey, what do we miss?
What's happening in crypto?
What's happening in Web3? Bringing a genuine smile to my face, we're
talking about what mints are happening right now that I might miss. We're having a research.
I'm not saying NFTs are back. I'm not saying we're having another NFT mania. We'll never
replicate 21-22. I firmly believe that. It's going to be different I can't remember the last time
I can't remember the last time I got excited about
Mint was probably Good Vibes Club
I can't remember the last time I got
excited about multiple mints
in the same week like genuinely excited
about multiple mints in the same
week Oxy will go to you here in a second
I saw I will say one
thing that's interesting is that both
of those artists chose to do actually all three of those artists chose to do basically free mints for the community or slash for Art Basel, which is why I think it might have an even more lasting impact because people tend to value things that they get for free in this context a little more.
Think of Skulls of lucy etc 100 agree i was going to go there as
well is i think part of what made part of what helped create that nft mania is and i i'm trying
to choose my words very carefully here because artists should get paid i'm not saying they should give away their art for free Momentum's very real
It's a balance
It's a balance between
Figuring out doing art for art's sake
Doing it for publicity
Or doing it to make money
And all three are
Converging here in a very interesting way
I think Jack does it
The most interesting in terms of just
Touching on the commerce part by literally having the amount that he paid for the booth up top and
and subtracting the amount that hit like his pnl for everyone that donates to it and i think that
like that part is interesting and everyone is doing this in a different way the x copy bubbles
i don't know if you realize but there's one bubble that's popped in your wallet each day. So I have a feeling if you combine bubbles in different
wallets, you might last a little bit longer. Wait a second. What do you mean by combined
bubbles in different wallets? Like let's say you were whitelisted on not just your main hot wallet,
but you have five hot wallets that have NFTs on it and each one, because there were like 300,000
wallets or something like that, that were and each one because there were like 300 000 wallets or
something like that that were whitelisted for this x copy bubbles mint so it's likely that you have
more than one wallet that has 10 bubbles sitting on it what i'm saying is i believe if you combine
the bubbles from your different wallets you'll last a little bit longer because there's also
some sort of gamification aspect of this that hasn't really been revealed so much yet.
So you think that the move would be to not keep them in separate wallets,
but put them in the same wallet as your...
Correct.
Because then you would lose less bubbles per day
because only one bubble per wallet gets popped.
Oh, is that confirmed?
That's confirmed.
That's on the website.
Interesting.
So I pinned up a couple things up top.
There is the OpenSea post says bubbles.art slash allow list.
That's, that is an official link.
X copies post of bubbles.
You can see that as well.
I'm actually going to take that down just to clean up the Jumbotron a little bit.
Cause it's, it's quote tweeted from the OpenSea post.
The Jack Butcher site is also, if you
click through the Jack Butcher post up top, and the
first comment in there
is the actual link.
Oxy, go ahead and get in here.
Thoughts on this digital
art resurgence
courtesy of Beeple, XCopy
and Jack Butcher at Art Basel 2025 art basil 2025 no yeah i think it's
cool i know i know you kind of moved on from it but like thinking back to 2021 days when like
you'd be in a discord trying to get rough you know raffle spots by joining discord raffles and stuff
like that um and then like ghosts and there's a bunch of different projects but it was just such a more
pure was experience and i mean my buddies and i talk about that all the time and how much we
miss it and and whatnot um just talking about this experience going on now specifically uh
it sounds like they're doing this like kind of the poet or not the poet what was that guy's name pack
oh but the right way what was his name d-pack or something like that murat pack murray pack yeah
yeah but the right way like they're like this is the right way to handle it because it's a free
mint and it's a gamified experience and it's fun for people instead of like, I don't know, whatever the rug that was back in the day, but I know he,
he raised a hundred million dollars and then disappeared.
X copy has been here and these are all free.
Yeah. That's why I think it's a cool contrast.
I also think this is part of what could lead to the resurgence. I,
artists should, you know, should get paid for their work. Unfortunately, the NFT mania brought in a
lot of charlatans, grifters, scammers that just extracted, that rolled out these concepts,
but instead of doing a free mint, they charged a lot of money for it. They made a hundred million
dollars and walked. And I think that turned a lot of people off. I think it turned a lot of
participants off. I think it turned a lot of people off i think it turned a lot of participants off i think it turned a lot of artists off and so now it feels like we're kind of getting back to
those roots of let's let's have some fun on chain let's experiment let's it doesn't always have to
be free but whether it's free or a dollar or you know a 200 mint that's when a lot of this stuff
started it wasn't the 2.5 ETH mints.
Those came far later when it was hyper-financialized,
hyper-speculation.
I think stuff like this is...
We were talking yesterday,
what could be a next catalyst?
What could be a massive onboarding mechanism?
And I've been saying builders
and we have some
unicorn success stories that attract other entrepreneurs, which by proxy brings in,
you know, active participants, traditional art collectors, traditional, like whether it's
someone collecting a piece of free art at Art Basel or someone going to ComplexCon and pulling
a, you know, a gotcha, a real life gotcha machine,
and that helps them create a wallet and there's some digital counterpart to their collectible
there. Like it's not going to happen overnight, but it just, to me kind of hit me. It's like,
it really does feel like we're getting back to the roots of fun art where you're not having to
make a decision on, oh man, do I want to go spend
five ETH to mint this thing today? Do I want to go spend? No, don't do that. Unless you're
an extreme high net worth individual, don't be spending thousands of dollars on some new NFT
mint. But when there's opportunities like this, why not participate? Have some fun with it.
One other thing i will mention is
in terms of free mints the art blocks mints also the last three are free as well so the one that
happened two days ago with jeff davis um also was a free mint and i think not that those have
exploded that much but they're like a 0.05 eighth floor i think in general the last three are cool
because snow froze also doing one if you don't have an Artblocks profile though, and you've collected
Artblocks pieces before, make sure to register an Artblocks account so that you can get the
claim, the free Artblocks NFTs as well. And they had a nice presence at Basel as well.
Is there a claim going on right now for Artblocks?
The Jeff Davis minted out, there were a thousand pieces,
but there are two more projects coming.
One from DCA, who is Snowfro's brother,
and one from Snowfro himself.
And the Snowfro one will be like a 60,000 piece mint.
And I think you can even gift one to another person or something.
So it'll be cool.
I don't know how they gamified that, but very cool and they had a quine display which was the fourth or fifth to last art blocks project which
was the larva labs um collection so that's cool to see uh larva labs times art blocks at our basal
as well yep absolutely um a couple things real quick i'll catch up on the chat. Before I forget, shout out to Yasum Crypto. We was a big Coffee with Captain. We listened to more Coffee with Captain on Spotify than did Rogan. Streamed 926 minutes, was a top 7% fan. I'm looking for who's our top fan, who can beat 926 minutes, whatever, I don't know, probably by the end of the week.
Maybe on Monday I'll pull the winner.
Anyone that can out, has more minutes in Spotify than did Jasm here,
you will win a DGN pass.
I got a DGN pass.
Trevor was the biggest listener on Spotify last year.
I'm going to, I'll pin this up top just so you can see it as a reminder.
But yes, Loki, it is.
The title is Daily NFT Conversations.
We still talk about NFTs every day.
We don't, I guess we don't tout it in the title as much, just as, you know, even the
acronym NFTs kind of developed somewhat of a um not great
reputation but the um yeah the official title of the show still is coffee with captain daily nft
conversations haven't changed it yet but i will uh i'll pin that up top i am curious if anyone else
has their spotify if we have coffee with captain pop in your spotify wrap i'd love to see the
screenshot either drop it in the chat or actually hit Jasmine's post up top in those comments
and that'll help me see who was
our number
one listener.
I'm excited. I've been
excited. I felt
I mean, for the longest time, I don't think the cycle
is over. I felt we still have some fun
heading into 2026, potentially
beyond.
Was not expecting the NFT.
I'm going to say resurgence, renaissance, to use our guy Zolki's term.
I agree with Diablito.
Minting paid NFT mints doesn't excite me that much anymore either.
I just think some of this stuff, this is why you don't leave.
This is why you stay even when things are down.
You don't have to be trading every day.
You don't have to be buying stuff every day.
There are times where if you check out for six months and come back, you're going to miss some of these opportunities.
Maybe none of this turns into financial reward.
For a buck, I think it's worth rolling the dice. So go get your Jack Butcher,
go get your bubbles. The bubbles, by the way, and this is the next thing I want to hit on.
And a couple other topics, just because I know we got a guest coming up in about 20 minutes.
We'll do a deep dive on flow. I do want to talk about, Bored Apeyacht Club just announced
they're always on merch store.
Excited about that.
That's been in the works for a little while.
The Ethereum Fusaka upgrade went live yesterday
without a hitch.
And blob fees are way up.
This is, I think, a big deal.
I said that my bearish sentiment on Ethereum, the token,
is the value accrual. And I'm not saying this fixes it,
but seemingly it's off to a good start.
And for all parties,
like if you look,
my gas widget is not even registering right now.
Like 0.0 GWI for gas on main net.
That's pretty good.
This is Jared, unironically,
on the flow team. Or I'm sorry, abstract.
Excuse me. No offense, Jared.
Talking about blob fees are already up
1,500x since the Fusaka
upgrade went live. Went from
1 WI up to 1,500
and climbing quickly.
If you're curious why,
he's got a
technical breakdown on
the price of the blob fees. It's too cheap,
usually one Wii. It's because L2s
stop posting blobs when L1
gas fees are high and Ethereum then lowers the
blob cost
unnecessarily. EIP fixed
it with blob reserve price tied to L1 gas cost.
It's above my, I mean, I'm sure I can put the brain space to it and understand it.
It's pretty technical.
All I know is higher throughput, more GPS, lower congestion, cheaper gas fees.
GPS, lower congestion, cheaper gas fees.
So cheaper gas fees on ETH for the user.
So cheaper gas fees on ETH for the user.
And if I'm not mistaken, as I understand this,
it's also, it's moving some of the value accrual
from the L2s to ETH, to mainnet.
Oxy, check me on that.
Am I saying this semi-correctly
in terms of this new ETH upgrade
and what it means for Ethereum?
Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, I'm in a similar boat. this semi correctly in terms of this this new eth upgrade and what it means for ethereum in the yeah
yeah yeah no exactly i mean i i'm in a similar boat i'm not like technical enough to you know know all the intricacies but i think exactly what you're saying is you know spot on i think it's
bullish and clearly i mean price action whether it's just market sent the market going up and
follow and eat following suit i think there is some underlying technical trades going on
where people are like, okay, I like the way this is going.
So yeah, I think you're speaking about it correctly.
I saw another post from Jared
as I was looking for this one to pin.
He says, hot take on blobs.
The incentives between ETH and L2s are misaligned.
L2s want blob space as low as possible
to keep gas fees low for users.
Ethereum wants blob fees as high as L2s are willingaligned. L2s want blob space as low as possible to keep gas fees low for users. Ethereum wants blob fees as high
as L2s are willing to pay
for the L1 security guarantees.
How do we fix this?
Yeah, again, I just, I think this is a,
this is a big deal, potentially for ETH.
And it just makes sense.
Logically, rationally makes sense.
So good to see it.
One other thing before we move off of the bubbles.
I had mine pulled up.
I'll show that again here as I talk through it.
Actually, where'd it go?
Here we are.
So actionable.
For those of you that go check that allow list
on the OpenSea link that's pinned up top,
go check all your wallets.
I've only done one here.
As Imlo said, these bubbles are going to burst.
I still have 10 in mind, so maybe it's not...
Maybe it's no more than one bubble pops in a wallet per day.
Does that maybe make sense?
Or maybe not four hours yet.
Either way, these bubbles will pop.
And it's a 10-year experiment.
At the end of 10 years, all the bubbles will be popped except for one,
and that one won a prize.
I'm assuming it's going to be like a one-on-one X copy.
So are you going to get a financial reward off these bubbles?
Probably not
in the short term, but it's part of your on-chain history. Maybe it's an X copy down the road.
Maybe it's a third party. I think your on-chain history matters. I'd go play around with these
bubbles. I mean, they actually make some decent PFPs. I've seen a few PFPs rock,
people rock them as PFPs. Shout out to Dork and, uh, Crocs in the war room. Um, again, it's an X copy for free. Go mint it if you can go check. I think the bigger story here though, isn't necessarily X copy.
it's when I first saw this man, I had, I had a little bit of,
had a little bit of FOMO. I'm like, shit, I wanted an X copy. I, I don't, I just, I gave up,
I didn't, I don't hold any right now. So I was like, I'm not going to be eligible,
but I was. And how I was eligible was this right here.
I mean, maybe there was something else in there that got me eligibility.
This OpenSea post, what's your current treasure count?
Anyone who earned a tier three or above from treasure from any phase of our rewards program is on the allow list
to claim X copies, latest drop, bubbles on shape.
latest drop, bubbles on shape.
I have to, like, I don't really know anything.
I know one of my best friends now is working for OpenSea,
and one of his roles is the not just comms, but rewards.
And this really excites me.
It's tapping into some of the things that
were exciting were led to a lot of that momentum when something you held or some activity you did
on chain led to the next opportunity whether it was an airdrop whether it was an allow list
i didn't necessarily have this on my bingo card. I didn't necessarily see OpenSea
leaning into this. I'm not saying it's going to be bigger, like what you might get access to
because of your OpenSea rewards is going to be bigger than your C allocation, but it's pretty
cool. I genuinely was excited I had the ability to go get this. I'm going to go check my other
wallets today to see maybe I've got more bubbles I can go mint.
You may be thinking, oh, it's silly to get so excited about a free mint.
Maybe.
Someone's going to win something here in 10 years.
I just, I think I'm getting the sense we're seeing more and more of this.
We'll talk with Flo here in a little bit kind of going back to their roots
and almost
aligning with the collectors
aligning with the active participants
rewarding those collectors
rewarding those active participants
things like the free ex-copy mint
things like the $1 Jack Butcher mint
this
again
I'm the permable
I'm the optimist so take it for a grain of salt.
I just, it feels like we're hitting, this feels like a pivotal moment.
It feels like there's a shift happening as we speak.
Nothing, we can do the coolest experiments on chain that you could ever think of, and
it's probably not enough to offset macro conditions or majors crashing.
Maybe it could.
I mean, when you think back to 2021,
there was multiple major pullbacks,
major crashes, both Bitcoin and ETH,
when NFTs were seemingly up only for a while.
And again, this is just,
it's not that fun to think about,
oh, do I want to go spend,
like you talked about the last art blocks meant there
and Matt and John, which is really cool,
would like to own one,
but I'm not in the market to go
mint an NFT for five ETH
or whatever that auction settled at.
It's the inclusivity that the early NFT mania brought, whether you were
buying top shot packs and then ripping them and potentially hitting a big win,
whether you're doing $1 people raffles on Nifty Gateway, whether you're minted apes for a couple
hundred bucks and you hit it, you know, you caught lightning in a bottle there. Like there was
opportunities like this seemingly left and right.
I'm not saying we enter that same phase again.
I don't think we do.
But there's a lot of indications that there's some momentum brewing.
There's some excitement.
There's some fun being, you know, injected back into the NFT space.
And I think, especially if you're here today,
you don't want to sit on the sidelines.
Your risk is a little bit of time,
a really little bit of capital.
And who knows?
Maybe my rate is completely off
and next week after Art Basel's over,
everyone forgets about this
and we go back to just talking about perps
and prediction markets.
I don't know. I don't know.
I don't think, I think there might be more to it than that.
And I think this could be a real, you know, real pivotal moment
and kind of bring back some of that excitement around collecting NFT,
supporting your favorite NFT artists.
So yeah, shout out to everyone who's
participating in art basil i know there's been a lot of work eli probably doesn't get enough
credit i feel he's kind of one of the ones behind the scenes that does a lot of you know making
things like this happen and it doesn't just happen there's a lot of work and prep well in advance
that is necessary to to pull all this stuff up and yeah up. And yeah, I'm excited to get down there today, excited to see some people in person.
And I'm going to go get 100 bubbles by going to that XCOP.
So yeah, if you're in Basel, excuse me, I think probably certainly worthwhile to go hit your,
go hit up that booth, go get your 100
bubbles. And again, what do you have to lose? Here is the last topic, at least I had on my
agenda, then MLO, Oxy, Proofalve, DGEN before we shift gears here at nine. If there's anything
additional in the news that we missed or we haven't hit on, throw up a hand or same thing
in the chat. If there's anything else you wanted yet, questions on all those links,
so should be pinned up top.
Make sure you're clicking your official links.
You can follow that OpenSea post or the Jack Butcher post.
I'll take you right to both those.
And the last one I mentioned here in passing,
we'll get out to DGN's thoughts on this,
but next week, the always-on store,
opening just in time for the holidays.
This is the Board of Yacht Club merch store.
No longer just something that pops up
in a merch drop window.
This will be starting off with the essentials collection.
Understated pieces, not limited run.
Plan is to reproduce any of the pieces from the essentials that people end up loving.
So new members will always have something to snag no matter when they join.
You won't have to rely on hitting up Baron Von Hustle or Gene or someone that's sitting on a bunch of merch to hook you up.
You actually can go just buy your own now.
Some of Citrull's merch will be accessible to anybody
no token gated, and
some pieces will be exclusive and token gated to members.
I love that. I think that's a nice little
caveat.
Open up next week. Open's December 10th.
So, Proof of Alpha Degen, are you
a merch buyer?
You may have lost your property, Jen.
I'm curious.
Oh, sorry about that, Cap.
Yes, I am.
Well, there's a project I'm in that is a trading project or a co-op or what have you.
And they just had an exclusive 100-piece release of a jersey. I'm a pullover and i bought it yeah i yes i am emerged
by yours so sorry man i'm i'm a sucker like that so yes i'm curious imlo oxy your your
your active participants in the space you're not necessarily quote-unquote club members
as as a and i don't like it's i don't mean this derogatory, but as an outsider,
just genuine thoughts on this, on not even just the merch drop, but we've been having
conversations about specifically NFT native brands and how they become real businesses,
how they build sustainable businesses and recurring revenue streams. Merch is not new,
but the idea of always-on merch, part of that collection being
gated only to members, kind of new, I think. I mean, maybe someone's done this before, but I
don't know if there's anyone with this size. It's nice that everyone will be able to have
the black hoodies from their favorite PFP. Yep, right. Oxy, any thoughts on your end or you,
does this excite you at all? Like, nothing burger or might you, whether you're a buyer or not, do you kind of see the vision is these NFT native brands start to mature as I lack a better word, but kind of grow up and start turning on the revenue faucets?
This any move the needle at all for you?
Yeah, I think I mean, I think it's important that I mean, any and all revenue, I feel like is important and should be captured, obviously in a non predatory way.
I like, I think I was like never really.
I mean, I understand the idea and concept of limited merch when it comes to like the super premium brands and like people trying to get the drops and so on and so forth.
and like people trying to get the drops and so on and so forth.
Like, I guess what I like about having it on all the time is like, okay, you know, we,
we live in the space where we're like desperately trying to get mints or like there's gas wars,
this, that, and the other, like, give us, give us something that we don't have to fight over
and like worry about and like, you know, stress over or have to, you know, stay up all night
trying to, trying to get. So like, I like that a lot.
And I think the always, like the always on aspect is just, I mean, it's just more revenue.
I think that's important.
And if someone wants to buy, then why limit them from being able to give you their money?
You know, so I like it.
I think that's a smart move, to be honest.
And I never, I never understood why token gated like products haven't always been
available like that's just just the easiest and most pure form of nfts that you know we've been
talking about for the last five years like why not capitalize on that so i like that i do yeah
well said i agree um our guy i can't trade who I kid you not.
I had this conscious thought.
I sent him a DM yesterday and then he, I'm not going to out his DMs,
but he shared something with me that kind of confirmed my priors.
I think I can't trade is going to be one of the big comeups this cycle.
He's going to go on the thread guy arc from the this cycle. He's going to go on the Threadguy arc from the NFT cycle. He's going to go on the Clemente, Jindifer, ICOB come up from the Blast cycle, constantly putting out
Alpha, well thought out. He's got a sub stack. And I'm not saying he's running perfect,
but he's running pretty pure. He's been calling this X copy mint for at least a month, maybe months, that this would happen in December.
He didn't have any inside info.
Just he's dialed into the space.
He knows history.
And he called this coming.
It's just go give our guy a follow.
I'm not going to, again, not going to out his, uh, his DMS, but his, he's been on a heater and big, big fan of this X copy mint. And, um,
yeah, he's just, uh, more to come on X copy, but he says, how do, how do we know we're on the way
back? Everyone's talking about it. X copy, Jack, Butcher, Snowfro. That's how we know
the resurgence started with token works. I'm quoting here,
Adam saved the space and people still don't get it.
I did share on the show while thinking I wasn't eligible for bubbles and people are asking,
where's the list click through the open C pin to post up top there.
You can find the allow list on there.
Go check your multiple wallets.
If the first wall you check them in there,
you might have another one.
Part of the,
like,
so there's,
we don't know how the list was
created what we do know is anyone who's tier three or higher on openc you're on the list
so i'm sure there's other if you have probably if you hold x copies and there's i think also
this is a collab with shape so if you've ever done a transaction on shape on any wallet that
wallet should also be whitelisted i believe yep good call good call
so yeah go check your wallets uh again you got you got nothing to lose free men i i checked some
random wallets and i i don't know how but they were also whitelisted like it's worth just checking
going on the site and changing over different wallets and seeing if it's eligible to to claim
because you might be and you didn't realize yep yep good call my uh diablo i'm not sure about
wall chain i'd maybe check with him or check with the team if that campaign just ended uh i wasn't
as close to this one as i was the first oh diablo just said his bubble already popped uh oh no it's
because he hasn't done the os quest no bubbles for him check some other wallets there might be
something in there uh i am i still have
my my full 10 so i will i'll take that and not that i'm expecting to uh win but man that would
be a fun sweat you get you know fast forward nine and a half years and you're one of the few
remaining with a bubble in there because uh who knows but at that point that x copy might be it
might be seven figures would you sell the bubbles at that point or hold till then? Ooh, I don't know.
I mean,
there's a number for everything,
but,
I'm so out of there.
Yeah.
It's just,
it's like,
cause you're,
you're man.
You're like the,
the range of outcomes there.
It's not like,
again,
I'm going to use a million numbers as a crazy high valuation.
This is,
this is one in a million though.
Cause there are, there are, there are either, I forget. There's either a million numbers as a crazy high valuation on it. This is, this is one in a million though. Cause there are,
there are,
there are either,
I forget,
there's either a million or 10 million bubbles,
but basically you have 10 bubbles.
So if you have 10 bubbles out of 10 million,
that's one in a million.
Yep.
I think that where I'm at is the risk there is like,
yeah,
you hit a seven figure score or it's zero.
It's not like,
you,
you didn't hit the last bubble.
So you still sell your bubbles for, you know, 100K.
It's like, it's probably zero or high six figures would be my guess.
So yeah, I don't know.
I probably, if there's a good offer, I probably, just being candid,
I probably, depends on where I'm at in 10 years from now,
but that would be a tough, could be a, it's going to be fun.
It's going to be a fun game as we get down that.
I know it's way down the road.
Here's the other thing I think this might, we might,
I think this might kick off a little.
I think part of what gets me so excited about this is it's,
we're seeing experimentation on chain again.
It's been a while since we'd seen new mechanics, new stuff.
We're seeing it with Jack.
We're seeing it with X copy.
I think there'll probably be someone who's not X copy.
That'll do something similar to this. There'll be another on chain game that maybe doesn't run 10 years
maybe it's a year maybe it's a month with a big prize as well i could see this kicking off a
little mini i think also this is the most distributed art uh art basal piece ever with
9 000 wallets that's more art sold or whatever distributed than I think any other Art Basel piece ever.
When I saw the number of wallets eligible, it was over 300,000 for this Bubbles piece.
I was like, what in the, how the heck are there 300,000 wallets eligible for this XCopy piece?
And I'm not one of them.
Turns out I was, I just, I think I thought I was, I thought it was like, oh, you got to hold an XCopy.
It's again, shout out to OpenSea.
They're not saying, oh, look at us.
That didn't just happen.
That's OpenSea doing business development.
That's OpenSea working for their users,
working for their collectors.
That's also what gets me excited about this resurgence is,
and I'm not taking shots at any of the NFT native brands.
Like I just, we got away from that.
We got away from Freemans or Lala because you hold this asset or you've been an active participant in our ecosystem.
That stuff really matters.
It creates momentum.
It gets reasons to hold or acquire these things beyond just the art itself and collect what you want.
Don't buy things just for financial speculation.
But the crypto native brands putting their collectors, their users at the forefront and rewarding them.
I truly believe that's what we need to bring back some excitement in this space, to bring in some net new users, some net new buyers, some net new collectors.
to bring back some excitement in this space, to bring in some net new users, some net new buyers,
some net new collectors. And the other thing that we haven't even mentioned this morning,
but I think does play into this and enables these free men's or these low cost men's
is royalties can be back. We now have the technology that
artists can make royalties, can have their royalties protected and not have to worry about
losing out to Blur.
I haven't checked the bubbles contract.
I don't know if there's royalties.
I'm just making an assumption that they're protected,
but I don't know.
I believe the royalties have been paid so far on the bubbles.
There's been over five ETH transacted already.
So likely so, yeah.
That was my assumption, but I didn't verify it. Listen, we're heading up against nine here we will have some guests joining us in in almost no time
joey thank you for coming up because i know you can give me 60 90 seconds so i can go refill my
coffee and quick mobile stream drop before we shift gears is that good yeah of course
you gotta turn my camera back on cool yeah um so i think the bubbles thing is cool i think it's a really cool
experiment especially as a freeman um i think 10 years is a is a little long um but you know
to each his own uh i i don't know how many people will will still be interested or remember
in 10 years that they have a bubble um especially if
we're onboarding like more people but who knows uh but i'm here to play the kind of devil's advocate
on this jack butcher thing so uh or play the opposite side of it which is i don't get it
like i asked in the war room like what is what is this right like is there some type you know
he's famous for his burning right and like he started that whole burning meta with the old pepins and checks and all that
stuff like that. And like, is there some type of giveaway you'll enter or, and, and maybe the
person in the worm that told me was like, nope, just the more money you give him, the longer
you're received. Explain to me how this makes any sense right like are we just willingly giving
somebody money so we could have a digital receipt that like i just saw one and it literally says
art one dollar art one dollar art one dollar art one dollar because they paid 20 bucks like where
is the i'm sorry where is the art in that like where is the art is the
art is you questioning it and getting riled up about the fact that he's charging you and by the
way he's charging you seven percent tax on that non-art as well but that's my whole point though
so it like this is to me you're you're just basically saying like i want to give
this person money because i like the person is it you want to you want to participate in the
experience and like what is the experience the the experience is jack getting out of debt because
he's a hundred thousand dollars in debt because he paid a hundred thousand dollars for the booth
he's not actually in debt but he's in debt like the pnl. He's not actually in debt, but he's in debt, like the P&L on the booth.
But he's not.
Again, that's what I'm trying to understand.
It's a communal experience with microtransactions.
It's basically allowing smaller collectors
to get a piece of this overall piece.
It's more conceptual than a piece of art that you'd look at,
but I think it's interesting how he's a piece of art that you'd look at. But I think it's,
it's interesting how he's been engaging the community this way and allowing a
regular person that's walking that doesn't want to spend a million dollars on
a Rothko or something else to spend $1 and still get a piece from Art Basel.
Yes, it's a receipt, but it's still technically a piece.
Yeah. And it's, I mean,
I should say, art
is subjective, right?
Like, a banana taped to a wall
sold for seven figures.
Is a receipt
the most visually appealing
piece of art of all time?
No, but it's
it's
I don't know the right word for it,
but it is. I mean, it's smart
Like I get what he's doing, right? He's like, hey, i'm setting up a booth at art basil cost 100 grand
Do you want to be a piece of do you want a piece of this history?
Whatever you can write like you can you can donate whatever you want. It's smart
It's a smart business move more power to jack
Like I think it's amazing that he's able to convince people to pay for his art basil
booth with a digital receipt right like but i just and again as somebody who's a collector
and who can can appreciate art like to me this just it looks it sounds stupid like i don't see
how anybody in traditional art or a traditional collector is gonna look at
this and go man because it makes them question it's not it's it makes them question and say what
the fuck is this and makes them think about it more than they would have had they just seen it
and walked past it and gone about their day i mean i very it's it's not common to see the prices of something at art basel
displayed like that normally it's priced upon request or whatever there it's out in the open
saying okay i went into 100k of of debt or whatever in order to pay for this booth help
me out of this hole it's the most honest it's the most it's the guys got like right but it's
i would say it's the most honest booth at art basel itself very transparent i also think part of art and i again i am not a
art curator i've never ran a gallery i i hold a few physical pieces most of work created by my
daughter who's an artist but i think part of of art is, not only is it subjective,
it's, you got to gain attention. You want people talking about your art.
What are we doing this morning, Joey?
Again, I'm not saying that what, this isn't a, again, this is a smart business move by him.
His name is being talked about. It's all it's all over the timeline. He's,
he's getting his expenses paid for by other people. I just don't to your, you made a comment
about how like, you know, this could be a catalyst, a Renaissance, all these things that are happening
right now. Like, I just don't see how a traditional art collector, right? If our goal is to go mainstream, right?
With digital art.
If it was Jack's booth by itself, maybe not.
The fact that you have 12 different booths,
all with different artists attacking this
from different angles and Jack being one of them
attacking it from a very different angle
than all of the other artists
makes it a more cohesive group as a whole.
And I'd say them in conversation with each other is
the most interesting out of all of it. Not any one booth in particular, but all 12 combined.
And everyone is entitled to their art, like we say, artist objectives, opinions,
et cetera. Me personally, when I was in the war room asking like, what is this? Because I wanted to get some information. It's like that's it you just buy it and get a receipt and it helps pay for his booth like I
Again, I don't get it. I don't see how our traditional art collector walks by and goes
Yeah, i'm gonna give this guy 50 bucks so I can get a digital receipt
I don't see how that
Brings digital art now. I the bubbles thing I i get i think it's super cool it's an
experiment over 10 years you know like the the checks the opepins the right like the way the
way jack the way jack pitched this is this is also an experiment to see whether he can recoup
the cost of the booth or if it's just a wash and either way whatever results but he's not the first
person to ever try to recoup the cost of a booth that he bought.
But he's very transparent about it.
He's showing you what the cost of the booth is and how deep in the hole he is and that the price is getting less and less.
And maybe it'll even be positive at some point when someone comes and says, OK, I'm giving a million dollars and I want the longest receipt ever.
It is an experiment.
I think that's part of what it, like, we don't know.
Like, maybe this is all it is.
Maybe it's just a booth.
He either breaks even, makes a little money,
loses money on the exhibit, and moves on and we never hear about it again.
Jack's MO is not that, though.
There's always another, mostly, not always,
because there has been some low-cost
free mints or open editions that i don't know if anything else ever really came from it it was just
the art maybe that's all this is please don't go buy spend thousands of dollars and get a long
receipt just because you think it's going to be turned into you know a 10x i just think part like
if that's what it was joey if the only way you get this receipt
is you guys you had to spend one ether greater all right we probably wouldn't be talking about
it today the fact that it's a dollar i mean i think but see like to me i think it would be cool
if it was like and who knows maybe there's more coming but if it was like hey i need to recoup
a hundred thousand dollars so at the most and let's just pretend, right? Like the most I'm, I'm going to collect is a hundred thousand. Cause you could see on the
website how it keeps showing like how it's possible that that's the case and he ends up
airdropping people. Well, but that's what I was going to say is now, if there was some cool,
like if the next step to this was like every dollar you spent to help me recoup my hundred
thousand was you're gonna you're gonna
be entered into a raffle for a one-of-one jack but and who knows maybe that's it right like i think
to me then i could understand the idea of like hey let's let's do this but if it's if it ends
up just being like you get a digital receipt and if you want to have the longest receipt
digital receipt ever donate the most money.
And again, maybe there's more,
but this whole mystery and intrigue thing
for people just to give someone free money,
I don't get.
So totally understand.
And that's your prerogative.
And again, I'm only one person, right?
Like it's just, I'm not saying anybody else is wrong.
I do want to move on.
I got one more thought on this
just from I Can't Trade in the chat.
It says, Joey, you're totally missing it.
Jack's art is always performative.
You're looking at this from a monetary perspective.
That's exactly the point.
It's not a monetary thing.
If you know Jack, this will lead to something else.
May or may not, but I think it's Jack's art is performative.
And I'm not like a Jack Butcher bull.
I hold maybe a few of those open editions, some small pieces.
I just, to me,
more so than the receipt and the actual exhibit, it's something new. And I'm reinvigorated by this.
We're getting back to experimenting on chain, doing new things. And I like when the collectors,
the participants can come along for the ride, even if there's no other ride, maybe the bride ends soon as Art Vow is over.
I don't think that's going to be the case, but for a dollar, I'll roll the dice.
But really appreciate the conversation. Really enjoyed it.
That said, we got a special guest waiting in the green room here.
I want to bring up Roham to get things moving on.
Super busy guy. Big, big announcement this week.
And I said it on the show. I got a couple of clips went out there. I said it on the show. A couple clips went out there.
I said it on my quote tweet.
Not that I was a Flo Bear.
Uncoincidentally, Joey is on the BZ team.
We're big fans of BZ, a partner of ours.
Been a big fan of Flo.
Steve was early to the rewards program there in season one.
But I went from, I don't want to say bear.
I just went from like flow was just there.
And I, you know, still hold a bit by my speaking of those early days, still hold my cool cats
complete set.
I tried to find my, my cool cats hoodie.
I was going to rock today, but it's in storage, uh, in the middle of a move.
But the, this idea of getting back to our roots at those 2021, that energy, the vibes,
the working with the collectors the active
participants those not just the rewards but the the thought of the i don't want it to be seeming
it's just all hyper financialized but the speculation is fun the game of gamification is fun
and this announcement came out the other day and i went like to, I don't want to say indifferent, but from just being real, I was probably indifferent to Flow to almost instantly became a Flow bull
because of everything we said in this announcement.
So before we jump into that, I will pull it up here on screen.
We'll let you talk through it.
But first of all, GM, sir, thanks so much for joining us.
Really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule impromptu like this.
Before we get into all things Flow and these big big announcements i saw you got some of that conversation do you have any any thoughts or comments just on art basil or this
bubbles mint from x copy or this jack butcher receipts anything in general you wanted to add or
uh comment on the earlier discussion um well i mean look i think at the end of the day
i think i think you said it or someone said it, you know, the art is art. You can't, the whole point is the, is the emotion that it incites. And so if you're pissed off at
him, you're basically playing your part in his, in his movie, right? Like he casted this and
you're sort of like showing up and playing that. So it sort of is what it is. And, and, you know,
you have to have the, you have to have the, the, at the end of the day, you day, it's really good to have people taking shots at everything.
That's how the human race progresses.
And so evolution requires...
So even if you believe it's right or wrong, I have to celebrate it.
And so I'm very much...
And I'm a Jake fan.
And I think he's not trying to extract because it's a dollar.
I think he's not trying to extract because it's a dollar.
So it's a way to actually be sort of inclusive and then see what happens.
I see no problem with it.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I –
Art Basel, on the other hand, is a separate story.
What's that?
I said Art Basel as a whole, on the other hand i think is a separate separate
story are you we were talking right at the beginning of the show emlo was down there he
was at the people event it feels to me i'm heading down today so i'll get to experience it in real
time but it seems to me like digital art's really having a moment this year it seems to be kind of
the talk of the town i said i seem to be i'm probably in an echo chamber here on on crypto
twitter per uh per emlo down on the ground, he would agree.
It seems to be like we're really having a breakout moment in terms of digital art in general.
Thoughts on that?
Well, look, I think at the end of the day, it's like we've carved out.
It's a niche that's sort of growing every year.
It was mostly hype when it took over our Basel a few years ago
because it was mostly about the price, et cetera.
And now for several years, it's not been about price at all.
And still people show up, still do.
And the same is true of digital collectibles.
Every sports conference you go to, there is a digital collectibles panel.
There are people who show up and are passionate about that conversation.
And when you think about the and and from our sort of like
when you think about kind of the the community it's it's sort of authentic and it's real and
we just got to invest in it and grow it so i think that there's uh it's inevitable and of course
you know i think the digital and physical worlds are sort of headed for a full collision with
uh you know the more sort of uh ar vr and immersive technology actually gets in
sort of people's lives and so it's kind of inevitable that that that digital moniker is
just going to get removed and it's just art um and so and so you know it's art on a canvas
it's art and uh with pixels that that's all it is yeah i agree well said and and it's uh
yeah joey not no offense we're not taking shots at you but i
i think part of that good art it gets people on both like good art isn't oh everyone loves this
like you go show a rothgo to 100 people and more than 50 say what why would anyone ever pay for
that thing but yet it's some of the most valuable art on the planet so yeah it's gets people talking
and i think that is that in itself is is part of art, in my opinion, and I'm here for it. So that said, let's let's get into this announcement. I'm just going to pull up this recent post because it it really resonated with me. And not just because you dropped the F-bomb in the opening sentence, but I'm going to paraphrase it here. I'm not going to read the whole thing in detail. But the TLDR, we build apps for the world's most beloved brands, protocols, millions of users onboarded, billions in volume, but our mistakes were simple. Not enough value flowed to the believers who made it possible. We're fixing that now. Not only if we started updating the economics of our core products, we're also building a new slate of products and protocols with value creation at the core.
value creation at the core. The moment we need is finally here, 300 billion in stablecoins,
30 billion in tokenized railroad assets, trillions more in the way. The infrastructure and liquidity
exists. What doesn't are the right products. DeFi today is hostile, demands technical mastery,
justice five, slippage, MEV, liquidation cascades, the list goes on. Every interface is built by
experts for experts. Everyone else is forced to stay on the sidelines. That's the gap we're
filling. We've proven we can bring the benefits crypto to mainstream users without asking to become technical experts first. And we've proven to
make complex technology feel simple. Now we're applying that to the biggest market, money.
This is a really big deal. So I'll let you talk about these three big moves.
But I've shared my story before, if you missed it. I found this space, which changed my life
by way of NBA Top Shot in January of 2021. I came prior to this
space. I was big in the DFS space and I've been grinding that area as like a part-time side hustle
for about a decade. And a lot of the influential, the content creators in that world, they found
Top Shot. It was the infamous Jonathan Bales article that he bought the John Morant for $35,000.
And at first I brushed it off. And a week later, I found myself in a Topshop pack queue, went down that rabbit hole and never came out since. I even shared my first
crypto wallet was created using my Gmail address by way of Flow and NBA Topshop back in January of
2021. Had it not been like, maybe I found my way, maybe the journey is just the same, but it had not
been for Flow being very early to
obfuscating the tech and making it simple to sign on, making it simple to get started,
building products for consumers from the jump. I think it's been part of Flow's core is that
consumer approach. Now we have everyone talking about consumer products or consumer dApps.
I said, you can't talk about big brands in this space without
doing it proper without mentioning Flow. And really, you shouldn't talk about consumer
onboarding and building for consumers without talking about Flow. But yet, for a while,
you weren't included in that conversation. While Top Shot continues to do its thing,
there's other things. I think this move into DeFi, this Flow credit market, I think it's a really, really big deal. And I said it yesterday. I think right now Flow might very well be the most
slept on blockchain in all of crypto Twitter. Well, we certainly think so. Absolutely. And
by the way, can I hire you to voice over all my Twitter posts? Sure. Yeah, happy to.
to that was excellently that was excellently done appreciate it uh go ahead no just like feel free
That was absolutely done. Appreciate it.
to take us wherever you'd like we can go kind of through these these big announcements one by one
or if you want to over a quick summary for those viewing in i know that i'll try to get it as big
as possible but i'll be limited a little bit here by uh by x in the screen share it is pinned up top
though if you want to reference back to it later. But this is, we talk about not leaving. We talk about these are the times you want to be paying
attention to the space. I can't see the future. I don't know what exactly is going to happen.
My gut feels like we are at some inflection point. And I think the next six months is when
this is the sort of stuff you really want to be paying
attention to. Could you catch the back end of it if you come back in six months? Yeah, you could,
but I think now really could be some asymmetrical opportunities to be early. We're all early,
and we start talking about consumer DeFi. It's never been built for normies. I have an in real
life group chat with a
bunch of my friends who are all intents and purposes, they're by traditional standards are
all very successful. It's the, the, the accountants, the attorneys, the doctors, the dentists,
they all do very well financially. They're all like the group catch called pickers. And it started
with this like stock picks and stuff. I've been beating like the hyper liquid drum all year.
And I don't think there's a single one of them that's gotten,
gone on hyper liquid and made a single trade yet because it's just not user
friendly. So I, I, I am, yeah, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid.
I think consumer DeFi could very well be the next big thing to move in this
space and appreciate y'all taking the lead on it.
Yeah. I mean, look, at the end of the day,
making things easy and accessible was our thesis from the very beginning. And way back in 2016, 2017, we said, hey, crypto is much more than currency. The only thing people were thinking about the latest apps or just trading interfaces for new tokens.
And so it's almost like when we saw the stablecoin adoption, real-world asset adoption,
the crypto world seems to be looking to traditional fintech or banks to sort of be the interface to consumers.
I just think that's insane because what's special about crypto is the programmability,
I think that's insane because what's special about crypto is the programmability, the fact that you can build new kinds of products on top and then make them into tokens that anybody can trade fully seamlessly.
And so our vision for kind of consumer DeFi is automated, personalized, agentic.
And basically the way that our products work and the way that flow works, there's flow actions.
The docs are out there. It's fully open source. Anybody can come and build these automated DeFi products, which are
effectively, you're like training little agents that sit inside your wallet and perform actions
for you. So whether that's, hey, if Bitcoin goes up, take out more debt, get a farm this high yield
source of funds, or whether it's trading stocks
or whether it's placing sports bets
or whether it's playing on prediction markets,
anything that's tokenized,
you can program around.
And whether the interface of it
is kind of like a,
you know, looks like a Robin Hood
or whether it's a game,
that's what we think the future
of consumer finance is.
It's not, you know, loading up a,
sort of talking to a banker. It's not even loading up
like a traditional looking financial application, picking stocks, so on and so forth. It's trying
to actually build these complex financial products that are now fully autonomous. If a billionaire
or a hedge fund wanted to make a bet to say, hey, look, we think Google is going to win the AI wars,
they wouldn't just go buy Google stock.
They would structure a financial instrument,
and then they would also watch it,
and they would balance it depending on what happens in the markets
that says, hey, let's go long Google.
Let's go short Microsoft.
Let's go short Apple.
Let's try to find ways to hedge out the market risk
so that if AI as a whole crashes, but Google is still the winner,
we're still going to make money.
That's the kind of complex financial product that a high net worth individual would have access to
or an institution would have access to. In the world of consumer DeFi, that's just a token.
And so any individual could come design that strategy and sell it to any other individual.
Nobody's talking about the programmability of finance like this. And then when you think about
the world like that, then you sort of think, well,
not only can they come and tokenize that
and sell it to that person,
but they can do it anywhere, right?
Whether it's inside a metaverse,
whether it's on a financial looking product,
whether it's on a social application.
And that just is sort of the kind of the big vision here
is this financial sort of rails
should be in people's own control,
not controlled through intermediaries, like including banks and fintech.
And then in addition, it should be kind of everywhere because especially when you talk
sort of to the new generation, they don't want to spend time on entertainment and gaming
that doesn't sort of build skills or make them money or get them cloud or sort of has
some sort of productivity.
It's actually, it's, you know, when I was a kid, we just played games because we wanted to play games.
And, you know, the new generation is also so much more sort of like networked.
And so we're building products for those people as well as kind of the, to your point, the lawyers, the doctors,
you know, every single one of my friends that owns crypto,
maybe we're investors in Dapper,
hold flow, hold Bitcoin, whatever it is.
I asked them, hey, how much are you earning on your crypto?
He's like, what?
That's the answer, right?
Crypto is just sitting there in exchanges.
Hundreds of, 100 plus million people
just have their crypto sitting on a coinbase and so what if
you could click click click boom now you're earning 10 on your bitcoin um whatever it sort
of might be and and in a way that protects you from liquidation in a way that is fully transparent
not this like kind of hedge fund black box it's just a it's a it's a token that you buy but it's
actually a dude on the other side putting hyper hyperliquid bets with your money and, and sort of, you have no transparency into
sort of how that, how that works. It's fully, it's just software and it runs openly. It runs
transparently, fully audited top to bottom. Eventually, you know, we, we get smart contract
insurance and all of those things on top of it. And that's what is ready for the mainstream.
You know what I mean?
It's kind of like you have to kind of do that diligence from the ground up,
from the core protocol all the way up to the user experience that it sort of works.
And the additional thing that we're doing very differently is that it's all open.
So anyone can come copy it exactly as is day one.
But in addition, it's all multi-chain. So working
with layer zero, the OFT standard, but also there's a sort of yield token, minting, burning
things. So you can actually mint the yield sources directly on flow. It burns the yield
sources directly on flow. They're wrapped Bitcoin natively on flow. You have disabled
coins, PayPal, USD, USDC, potentially more in the future, natively on flow. You have these stable coins, PayPal, USD, USDC,
potentially more in the future, natively on flow.
But the actual assets could be bridged in from any chain. Like I mentioned, Bitcoin, Ethereum, one-day stocks, real-world assets,
whatever it might be.
Same thing with the yield source.
So it's just a mind-blowing kind of vision,
and I'm excited to talk about it.
Likewise, I do want to come back to the RWA piece here in a minute.
But before we even go there, the one thing that kind of popped off the announcement or the post when I first saw it was this FC and flow credit markets and lending protocol that protects you instead of punishing you is the language where traditional DeFi is punishing.
You know, if you were here, if you were in, get an open trade on October 10th, you likely
got liquidated.
It waits until you're underwater, then it liquidates you and charges a penalty.
Whereas FCM is active, uses native on-chain automation on flow to monitor every position
continuously and rebalance automatically before the position
is at risk of liquidation.
And you did major backtesting, 100% survival rate, 99% cost reduction.
Can you, without this getting too technical, can you expand on how that's possible?
Is it just simply AI agents that are operating in real time and smart contracts that are
doing all this balancing force. Like, how is it, or, or is it,
you got to have a giant stuck bucket of stables to make sure that they're able
to reallocate those to prevent you from getting liquidated.
Can you kind of take us through a little bit?
Not at all. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so, and when I say agents,
it's not the kind of AI agent thing that's actually doing sort of reasoning.
It's really just workloads that are programmed to execute based on sort of predefined action.
So smart contract code that instead of running on a smart contract runs inside your wallet
and something that kind of looks like an NFT.
So that's one piece of it.
So and flow credit markets is just something like Aave, a lending market, but it's built for that automation.
And so what it does is you come to flow credit markets, you put in your Bitcoin.
And traditionally, on a normal lending network, you sort of take out whatever stable coins you take out.
You take those to a DeFi yield farm.
You put them in there.
You earn some percent.
But then if Bitcoin falls, you might get liquidated if it falls too much and you don't have enough of a kind of buffer.
So most people build in a pretty significant buffer. They only go up to whatever, 50% LTV,
40% LTV, depending on how much falls we have. And then on the other side, for flow credit markets,
it does it automatically. So it actually just says, hey, give me $100 of Bitcoin. Here's $90 of stablecoin.
And if Bitcoin falls, I'm going to ask the agent,
the workflow in your wallet, I'm going to ask it for more money.
And so what the workflow in your wallet does
is it takes the money from the lending protocol,
puts it in a yield source.
That's a delta neutral USD denominated yield source,
whether that's kind of like a basis trade,
whether that's a stablecoin farm, whether that's kind of like a basis trade, whether that's a stablecoin
farm, whether that's whatever it might be. And so it's because it's USD, USD, it's very easy to
unwind that. And so when Bitcoin falls, all it does is it unwinds your yield position and pays
back the USD debt with the USD collateral or with the USD investment rather than selling your Bitcoin.
So you never sell your Bitcoin,
you're just winding your USD position
up and down, up and down, up and down.
And because flow is super cheap
and it has no MUD, no front-running standards,
tax, et cetera,
that is actually kind of financially attractable.
And so that's kind of all it is to sort of start with.
But that automation unlocks a huge amount of sort of flexibility because now you don't have to worry about.
And if it goes up, by the way, it just rebalances it upwards and just takes out more debt, farms more yield.
And so in sort of like Bitcoin terms, you're always having the same percent API, even though in dollar terms, it might go up and down.
at the same percent apy um even though in dollar terms it might go up and down the flip side you
can also do you can come park some stable coins um and take out crypto uh um take out crypto debt
and go farm crypto yield which normally would be dangerous because crypto might pop up 20 percent
in a single day and boom now you're you're liquidated on your u.s dollars you get charged
15 penalty but in this, it wouldn't happen.
If crypto pops, it just unwinds, it unstakes your, or sells the liquid staking token, pays
back the debt, and boom, you're sort of in the same place.
You're doing delta neutral yield farming.
But you could program infinite types of strategies on top of that, right?
And says, hey, I have Google and Microsoft.
Google goes up, sell some Google, buy more Microsoft, balance it at 50, 50, or you say,
Hey, up to this price, do a 50, 50, then let it sort of skew more Microsoft than Google,
whatever kind of it might be. And those are just programmed as, as sort of workflows,
the little NFTs that sit in your wallet, that sort of just balance stuff for you based on what happens outside in the market, whether it's on the lending protocol or future
protocols. Like if you have, if you imagine like an automated version of a PURP protocol,
it's kind of the same thing. You can program all of these sort of rules into whatever workflow you
want. And then it's fully just automated, sits out there, does what it does.
And, you know, you benefit. I love it. I guess, so it sounds incredible.
At the same time, I think there's probably still people listening like, okay, how savvy do I need to be to actually do this? Like, do I, my you know my assumption is you don't need to code
do you need to be how deep of like a financial understanding or is it is my understanding a lot
of this is going to be driven or or will be done on on peak money is that am i correcting those
dots correctly is that going to be kind of like the main forward-facing consumer yeah exactly so
i was describing kind of the protocol angle,
and then the product we're going to build on top, peak money, peak dot money, super simple,
is just going to wrap around these things. And so it'll just be like buy, sell. That's kind of it,
right? Or potentially like prediction markets type interface, depending on the bet, where you're just
like, yes, I think Google is going to be the winner, or I think Microsoft's going to be,
or I think Apple's going to be. In the background I think Microsoft is going to be, or I think Apple is going to be.
In the background, what that yes is doing is buying a token that has an automatically rebalanced sort of program wired into it.
And that's either designed by, let's say, us or designed by a financial expert or designed by potentially future curators. And you might imagine kind of a two-sided marketplace where people who are experts in sports cards or in
sports betting or in prediction or prediction markets or in uh real estate or in stocks or
in cryptocurrency can come and design these strategies and then sell them to customers
and the customer always has two choices right i believe in it i'll invest in it or i'll bet
against it um and that's like pretty freaking cool. And they're both just tokens, right?
And they execute automatically behind the scenes.
So that's not the first version of the product you'll see.
The first version of the product you'll see,
the initial strategies are all pretty,
like more of the conservative type.
As in, you park your money in there,
we'll go farm safe sources of yield
and you just get a high percentage return on your funds.
And there'll be a future version that's kind of like more lottery style where you park
in a hundred bucks, you get a slightly lower percent return, but then you're entered into
a lottery to win a sort of pooled share of the yield.
And so you put in a hundred bucks, you might win 10,000 bucks one month, that kind of thing.
And so it's appealing to millennials who want to just get excited about 15% stable coin yield.
They'll fall over chairs trying to kind of access that.
But then Gen Z, they don't care about 10, 15% on their couple thousand bucks.
What they want is an asymmetric opportunity for return.
So that's kind of what we're giving them.
And then you just wrap around other applications like that,
and you sort of need to figure out how to make them sort of easy to engage
with, but also transparent to the user of what the hell am I buying?
And what are the risks that I'm taking?
And that's kind of the most sort of important part because most DeFi
protocols, it's just like you see a percentage thing and you see a stake and you don't even know what the hell's happening. And that's sort of the expectation is,
well, it's open source, you know, go check it out. And obviously nobody does that,
at least of all us apes. Well, and I think trust is important too. It matters, especially when we
talk about people outside this space. Like all of here we may not we may have protocol trust in
something like hyper liquid my friends don't but you know what they do know they they know the team
that brought crypto kitties nba top shot disney pinnacle and i felt like flow has that trust and
reputation outside of our crypto bubble to where i think when people like i i kid you not i some of
the again successful friends i like been beating the Like guys, you can earn double digit yield on your,
your dollars on your stable coins. And like, oh, it's, it's gotta be a scam. It's too good to be
true. It's not, it's just, these are close friends and I still haven't been able to effectively
onboard them because a, there isn't that trust outside of this space
for a lot of these DeFi protocols. B, there's still a lot of our friends that have been in
crypto for years that still struggled to get their first position opened up on something like
Hyperliquid because it's just not downloading an app and clicking some buttons. There's a lot of
other things from bridging. And even though it's better than it used to be,
I think the ease of use matters, the trust matters.
And that's one of the things where I just,
I don't know as if the crypto native DGENs
are connecting that dot yet to the credibility,
the trust and reputation that Flow has outside of crypto.
Yeah, yeah, no, a hundred percent.
I mean, but it's partially that,
but it's also just simplicity
like for example obviously coinbase very trustworthy company but you go on coinbase there's so many
choices i have to buy all of these tokens and then i have to go to here to get this deal and then
there's a coinbase wallet but then there's a coinbase it's like a normal consumer you know
especially if they get forwarded to someone like coinbase wallet just freaks out because there's no
there's nothing to do at that point.
You know, there's,
there's no way they can sort of learn what they have to learn in order to
figure out a non-custodied wallet. And so a hundred percent, I mean, this,
this product for a lot of my friends you know,
let's say the class of flow holders that are keeping it in Anchorage or
keeping it in just sitting there in their Coinbase or whatever it might be.
This is a plug and play. It's sort of a, it's as easy as a cash out. And, and to your point by a
company that is sort of backed by all these big, big brands, but also it's integrated with your
bank account. It's integrated eventually with Visa, MasterCard, all of this stuff. You know,
it'll be a thing that feels very sort of familiar. And, and I keep kind of like making, you know, it'll be a thing that feels very sort of familiar. And I keep kind of like making, you know, I'm kind of bringing some TradFi examples.
It's not just a crypto app, right?
Like it's a way to access tokenized finance.
And the rails are all crypto and everything's a token.
But you can use peak money and just have U.S. dollars and just get a U.S. dollar yield.
You shouldn't think of that as
I'm engaging in DeFi or I'm sort of part of a crypto network until you're actually in there,
right? And then when you're in there, wait, wait, how did I kind of get in here, etc.?
But it should feel seamless and safe, kind of a non-technical kind of all the way through.
You nailed it. And I think, again, I'll keep likening back to my personal lib journey with Top Shot is I maybe had a little bit of ETH, a little bit of Bitcoin in my
Coinbase account prior to Top Shot. I didn't get into Top Shot to get into crypto. I got into
Top Shot because I was into sports, I was into collectibles, and it just made sense. It made
sense as a better form of a collectible to me. But it didn't take long after I got into TopShot.
Like, what is this?
Like, the light bulb just started going off.
Okay, blockchain tech is much more than just cryptocurrency.
There's a lot more that's unlocked here.
But it took something that was very simple and I could relate to to get me down that rabbit hole.
And I think that consumer DeFi could have that exact same,
like, yeah, my friends might be, okay, now I get it.
I can earn 10% of my savings account.
That's better than the percent from my bank.
Some of them are going to stop there,
but I think a lot will explore a little further.
And we talk about like active participants
and getting deep in the space.
The next thing you know,
they're taking a HELOC out on their house on
chain. Like it's, it's like this lead, I think this very well, I'm not just blowing smoke. I'm
not just glazing you around the show. There's been so much talk of consumer dApps. We don't
really, we haven't really had many, right? It's like, it's just, it's, it's been most cases,
extremely hyper-financialized stuff that is caters to the DGENs.
But your normie, they're just not interested.
They'll just go, they're sports prediction market, and this isn't something that they don't need.
They don't feel a need in their life.
I think something as simple as, oh, you're going to make twice the amount of yield on your deposits on chain as you will in your traditional bank account.
It's kind of a no-brainer if there's trust. And yes, as with everything,
there's protocol risks or smart contract risks,
but not all crypto native companies are built the same.
And the one thing before we get too far away from it,
I want to acknowledge is I think it's important too,
that peak money is a flow product. It's a, it's a Dapper Labs product.
Apologies if I'm getting the vernacular wrong there,
but it's incubated by or created by, I think, the native dApps are important.
Garga just had a post on this talking about other side and how important it is for Ape Chain and a lot of these chains.
They don't have their own native dApps, and it's become very much so a mercenary society where the next new shiny toy, they're going to go to get pre-TG to get more rewards. I think building these homegrown dApps are very important. And
just before we moved on, anything to speak to on, do you agree? I assume so to some degree,
because-
Million percent. Yeah, I mean, a million percent on the, and that was always the strategy,
right? If you look at kind of our earliest decks for when we started thinking about Dapper Labs,
it was about how to
build hit apps that then get the platform to sort of get the network effects. In the beginning,
the platform was built on top of Ethereum, and then we realized we've got to go kind of deeper
into the stack. So 100% agree with that. But the thing we learned, I guess the mistake I made,
let's say in the first generation of Dapper Labs one of the mistakes of many was that it has
to be built in an open way where it's composable at every step where both users and developers
can come and kind of build stuff on top and sort of take stuff in and out in a super flexible way
not sort of have it on the island by itself and that's what kind of means that the assets from
any chain can kind of bridge in that means people have no fear in terms of like building software on top.
We have no special privileges on top of the protocol, on top of FCM, so on and so forth.
And that's a big part of how we're building our products going forward is, yes,
Dacra Labs is building kind of the hit application on top.
And usually Flow Foundation might be building the protocol underlying it but it's
kind of open source from day one fcm is already open source even though it's not sort of fully
production yet and we don't have extra that many external users on the platform people can
still go can already go audit the the code themselves so on so forth and and and the flow
actions piece all the automation pieces has been
open source for months, months and a bit now. So same thing. It's like people can build on top of
it. They can audit it. They can feel safe doing it. And that also means it should be able to show up
in other kinds of applications. So for a kind of a mainstream finance app, they could just have an
earn button and then wrap around sort of our tokens just as easily as we do it eventually.
And that kind of drives more volume that brings it into more places.
And that's sort of like, you know,
seeds the crypto thing inside more people without kind of that barrier of I
have to kind of go change my behaviors, go somewhere else,
go kind of find a whole different way to use software in order to kind of go change my behaviors, go somewhere else, go kind of find a whole different way to use software
in order to kind of figure out how to participate in this thing.
So 100%.
You mentioned there in passing about the dev activity.
I don't have a report to pull up in front of me,
but I remember seeing one not too long ago that I think maybe was it the most of the year
or the dev activity, the new devs on flow,
one of those metrics, whether it was total dev activity or new devs moving to flow,
new developers, right? Like anything you can add to that?
We're in something like the top 20 for layer ones in terms of number of developers. And then it's
been fastest growing chain for, I don't know how many of the months this year, but one of the fastest growing overall in 2025.
And it's also been crushing it at hackathons.
So even hackathons where we don't have formal presence in, Flow is either the first or in the top three of sort of what developers choose.
It's been the first of every single one we've had presence in.
And then recently, DevConnect in Argentina, which is one of the biggest developer conferences in crypto, period.
It was Ethereum first, Base second, Flow third.
We had no presence, no prizes, no sponsorships.
It was just no booth.
It was just kind of organic.
How does that happen?
Not to get you to see any special sauce or secrets, but...
Nothing special sauce.
Our kind of like marketing strategy is to be very product-led
and actually sort of just say, these are products you can use
and also these are tokens you can buy.
But on sort of the main reason I think we're winning with developers
and the next generation is because of the technology.
And since we went EVM equivalent late last year,
flow is basically this thing of like,
hey, you get everything in EVM,
but then you get this extra stuff that's like,
wait, what?
You can do that full automation.
You can have on-chain randomness.
You can have a super easy user experience and onboarding.
You can have very sort of flexible ways
to kind of batch transactions and get really low gas.
You have no MEV. You just have all these like, it's EVM plus plus. It's kind of batch transactions and get really low gas. You have no MEV.
You just have all these like it's EVM plus plus.
It's kind of how I think about it.
And it's fully compatible with all of the assets on everything on EVM.
And thanks to Layer Zero, that's like super, super seamless.
So that's, I think, what the story is positive.
And now, of course, it's the applications too, right?
Like people want to see their app next to NBA, NFL, Disney,
Ticketmaster Live Nation.
They see, hey, Ticketmaster Live Nation alone,
over 10 million normies fully onboarded,
over 100 million NFTs,
and across the rest of the app are a few million more
and 100 million more NFTs.
And so it's kind of like, and they're products that you can use today.
And by the way, the other thing I was going to say is like, every time in crypto, we get this like hype led sort of price movement. But for most of the world, they're sort of like, you know, yes, BlackRock, Larry Fink is super smart guy.
And he's saying that tokenization is the future.
But so what for me, right?
Like, hey, the president is saying, hey, we're going to modernize the U.S. financial system and stable coins of the future and JP Morgan and all this stuff.
But so what for me?
And there's nothing that they can kind of do about it.
And their friends are saying, like yourself, hey, you can get 20% on DeFi.
But realistically, the number of steps, they're not even comfortable having a non-custodial wallet.
They don't want to have 10K in a MetaMask with a seed phrase.
Like someone's going to hack that thing.
And they're right.
They shouldn't, right?
Like they're probably going to lose more money through hacks and whatever
if they're not able to learn.
And so that's kind of like what our products have, I think,
always been in the cycle is there's been a narrative run-up, but there's a little bit of disillusionment from because it hasn't crossed the chasm in a sense, because for most of the public, it's still not nothing's changed in their lives because of crypto.
And then like NBA Top Shot comes out and it's like, wait, crypto can do this?
Or even Crypto Kitty is the first time.
It's like, crypto can do this.
And I think here it's sort of like, whoa.
Like if people start to see that vision of automated,
agentic, personalized finance, I think that's a,
even crypto people aren't talking about it sort of in those terms.
And I think that changes everything.
It changes all of consumer life.
And by the way, it starts with sort of like stocks and crypto and whatever.
But eventually, every single market, every single peer-to-peer transaction, every single
peer-to-peer network will be tokenized.
Whether it's Airbnb or your DoorDash deliveries, you can put prediction markets on top of whether
your delivery driver is going to be on time or not.
And that's what's going to be driving kind of them being on time, so on and so forth,
is partially what I believe.
Now, whether it happens in like food delivery
or in other kinds of networks first,
that's sort of open question.
But right now it's happening in finance.
And the reason that finance sort of people
are so excited about tokenization,
when you go to these sort of, you talk to the people actually driving it from the Wall Street side,
they talk about lower friction.
They talk about lower costs.
They talk about 24-7 markets.
They do talk about programmability, composability,
but in the sense of like, you know, sort one one uh one way things no one's thinking about well
what's the next layer of this you can actually build software to manage this stuff um and not
only does that cut out all the intermediaries it makes things so much more accessible because
just you know software does that every kind of 20 years right where it takes something that was very
uh that was only a small group of people and says, hey, anybody can kind of use this. And so that's what we're trying to do here.
Very, very cool. I have a couple of questions. Joe, I saw you fly back up. We'll get you in a
minute. Questions, comments. One, it is really impressive when you flow the devs you're attracting,
the developer activity in a post-TGE environment. It was one of the things to kind of set up Joey here,
who's on the BZ team.
I questioned when BZ moved to Flow.
I'm like, why would you move to Flow?
There's no tokens.
There's no TGE.
They've already done it.
Like why you've got all these other new,
highly anticipated chains.
Why wouldn't you go there?
And I'm not going to put words in their mouth,
but I will say people matter.
The team matters.
My experience, you know, in people matter. The team matters. My experience,
you know, in interacting with the flow team has been, I would go as far as to say first in class,
like it's just, they're very responsive. They, they seem to care. They're supportive. And I do think that matters. I think TGEs can come and go and what then happens is important. It doesn't get
talked about enough.
DApps matter, the builders matter,
and the fact that you've been able to attract upcoming brands like BZ,
and I'm sure there's other incentives there
beyond just TGE,
but I do think that's noteworthy,
and it is impressive that the dev activity you're seeing
in an environment where you've got things like
Monad just launched,
you've got MegaEath coming, and I've been pretty critical of monad not the tech not the chain but they launched
after years of building with with like i don't say no daps there's daps on there but nothing
novel nothing nothing exclusive nothing to make me like i i attempted to force myself do something
on the chain and it's like there's a beer pong game. That's the easiest,
quickest farm.
That's not sticky.
Like something I would never use if not for a reward environment,
but,
and I'm not going to try to make this PVP.
I'm not trying to pick on other chains,
but people do matter.
The team matters.
And I guess Joey,
to bring you in here,
go ahead and feel free to,
after you answer the question,
take,
you know,
take,
take whichever question you'd like.
But anything added to that in in terms of why BZ?
Anything you'd like to share on your experience
working with the Flow team or building on Flow?
Not to put you on the spot,
but since you threw your hand up to ask the question,
I'm going to ask you, in your words,
why did BZ choose Flow?
Yeah, I mean, the team is very responsive,
whether it's development issues whether it's
marketing um we have a great open line of communication with the team and i can say like
back in the day when we were before we went to blast um originally and then when we were
exploring other chains one of the the biggest deciding
factors was team accessibility like how long would it take when we reach out to a member of
the team to get a response to get help to get support um and then what what you guys have been
talking about like one of the deciding factors again was consumer rails right like how easy
was it for us to integrate credit cards
and debit cards and Apple Pay and Google Pay
and right, like single social sign-on
and all these things that make onboarding
non-Web3 natives easier.
So, I mean, our experience on Flow has been awesome
and I have nothing really negative to say.
Awesome.
Appreciate you sharing.
And I didn't want to step on you and make you answer my question instead of getting yours in there.
But did you have a question for Ryan?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, part of everything that's been talked about and everything that's been shared in the future, it's all great.
been shared in the future, it's all great. And I know one of the criticisms that we see in this
space of a lot of big brands, which is talked about a lot, is comms and marketing and reaching
the right people. Can you speak to what Flo's strategy or what a plan of attack is going to be to get these new consumer
consumer defi the new apps like to get this into the hands of the right people
over the next maybe six to 12 months two years whatever that looks like
yeah for sure i mean look i think i think there's so to be clear there's going to be two entities
working on this stuff so flow foundation is a non-profit um focused on building kind of the
core infrastructure of flow they built the fcm smart contracts and so they're mainly focused on
kind of token holders international expansion and um sort of the the the people using the
protocol either developers or traders or folks using non-custodial wallets, even MetaMask, so on and so forth.
And so they're kind of taking a very crypto native approach with where we're expanding our presence in Asia very heavily.
to build or rebuild our foundations in terms of a community that is bought in at an early
level, whether that looks like a re-TGE with sort of bringing in folks who have either
contributed to the network in a heavy way or are going to contribute to the network in
a heavy way, incentivizing them to kind of be part of the protocol, kind of recreate a sort of ground up sort of army
of folks, both here in North America as well as in Asia.
So it's a very kind of regional specific strategy, very crypto native strategy.
And look, I mean, part of the reality is also the protocols we built may themselves need
their own sort of token economies.
And so we need to sort of build the communities and the education kind of around that.
And not, again, from a technical necessarily standpoint, but from a social, emotional,
you know, community building and sort of incentive alignment standpoint.
And then Dapper Labs is the one that's kind of going full consumer and
focusing on what we do best, which is building great products that themselves also have native
growth loops built in them. So whether that's how you invest with your friends, whether that's
onboard your friends, get a piece of it, whether that's referral, KOL-centric kind of growth,
whether that's what I was talking about in terms of bringing in people who have their own strategies,
potentially with their own audiences that are now sort of selling their product to their consumers,
which is on top of our rails.
That's sort of what Dapper Labs does best.
And that's the path that we're going to go.
And that is also a global focus because in a lot of ways,
the biggest demand for USD stable coins is coming from people who don't have sort of easy access into USD. And this kind of gives them also easy access into all of
DeFi. And so like we were sort of dividing and conquering, I guess, you know, instead of both
organizations trying to do both things, Dapr stays focused on the consumer angle, flow builds the protocol and sort of focuses on the um the sort of crypto native
um kind of kind of angle and um and you know of course we have sort of the the press the
influencers kos on so forth but the most important thing is to have native growth loops that uh make
the products themselves viral and exciting and so peak money is going to go through a multi-month kind of a ramp-up
period where, you know, it'll be sort of invite only. You can sign up now to get on the waitlist.
First people on the waitlist will have priority. And over time, it kind of expands from there.
You mentioned, you know, the people that have the, right at the end, towards the end,
you mentioned the people that want the USD stables or people that typically
don't have access to USD. So have you guys, as your, as your,
you mentioned global, but do you guys have a, a targeted approach of like,
Hey, listen, we're going to go after Asia first.
We're going to go after Europe first, or like,
what does that look like for you when it comes to like which markets or is it just
truly we're going to go global and attack everybody at once um no it's it's sequence i mean eventually
global and we do have partners in europe we have team members in europe land america
and africa but the priority priority is asia and north North America and setting up real presence in Japan, Korea, China, and then to an extent kind of Singapore and from there, Southeast Asia and North America.
So North America, I feel, is where our best skills are and we have the best partners we could possibly have.
have. And then we are sort of, we were hiring full-time folks.
And then we are sort of we're hiring full time folks.
We have reached out and built sort of rebuilt our networks with,
with the folks that we used to work with as well as new KOLs and,
and networks in Korea, Japan. And then we're also launching our products there.
So whether, whether it's I don't know if I can say which specific product yet,
but, but kind of partnering with distribution partners in Japan, Korea specifically to start
and getting our products actually in the hands of consumers with local payment rails,
potentially on local marketplaces, that kind of thing.
So you can imagine kind of buying a Top Shot pack on an e-commerce site that is sort of
Japan-centric, for example,
and that kind of being what leads you into the Top Shot ecosystem.
And obviously, for certain of our products,
that might be a massive market for them.
But that's like people using the actual base application,
and then peak money kind of comes in as sort of the next leg in that as well.
And so it's always sort of pincer movement.
We go with the protocol and the token and try to build that kind of local crypto native
community while at the same time coming in with the products and actually making things
that people want to use to the point of, to Chris's point, not force themselves to use.
And potentially they come at it from other directions.
People discover the token and are like, whoa, this product exists?
Oh, I can get it on Racketan, whatever it might be.
Or people will discover the product and then they ask themselves,
wait, this is things on a blockchain.
Wait, I can just list it on the local exchange, whatever it might be.
So that's kind of the strategy there.
And once we, I think, are really happy with our deep presence in Asia, that's when we'll prioritize the other there. And once we, I think, are really happy
with our deep presence in Asia,
that's when we'll prioritize the other markets.
But I'll be in the Middle East
for all of the conferences
the next year half a dozen times.
And I'll also be, and obviously, like I said,
we have team members across the world.
So it's not like we're ignoring everywhere
and we want to support builders everywhere.
We have builders in India. We have builders in everywhere um we have builders in in india
we have builders in dubai we have builders in africa so um but but like the priority priority
is going to be um korea japan uh china and uh and north america very cool i know we gotta get
each out of here soon i've got if i could rapid fire a couple more questions for you
uh i do i do want. I got one question on the
RWA, specifically in the housing approach. I just want to flash up here as well for the builders.
If any builders listening in and you want more information or you'd like to work with the Flow
team or at least explore it, head to flow.com slash startups. You can see there they've got,
you know, they're really, I mean, Joey told you there's a lot going on and it's, you know, you,
I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice if you're looking to launch, to build on chain, you don't at least,
don't at least check it out.
Don't at least talk with the team.
I want a plus one on that also, because I even have experience with that myself.
I don't know if you remember, but last February, I partnered with flow foundation
and launched flowers on flow, which was an 1800 piece art collection.
And I was able to receive a grant for doing that and
wouldn't have been able to build such a robust collection of art on flow without that so if
you're an artist or builder look to the flow foundation and they're even happy to answer
questions also that's awesome i appreciate you adding that and and i take my takeaway there and
this isn't please don't take this as any offense it's not meant to be that way whatsoever but my
takeaway is whether you're
an artist and you're looking to build you know something new experiment on chain or
you're looking to build a massive consumer app on chain that you you know envision to become the
next unicorn startup in crypto my read right me correct me if i'm wrong but it's like flow's
looking to work with both the the from the artist builders that are looking to build the $100 million, billion dollar enterprise.
Is that accurate?
Yeah, I think that's 100% accurate.
I mean, we definitely want to make folks as successful as possible.
And so we might have suggestions in terms of like business model or pricing or this kind of thing.
But where I see myself is intersectional culture and technology.
And I think artists are actually the folks that kind of see ahead of the companies, right?
You sort of need to take, like I said, you have to celebrate sort of any expansion of the design space.
And so 100%.
We'd love to hear from artists, builders, users, traders, and DGENs alike.
My last question for you, and then I might have one more from the chat, and then any closing comments before I get you out of here.
I've got this home equity line of credit.
There's been a lot, I mean, for last year plus, there's been a lot of talk about RWAs on chain.
chain, but it's mostly been collectibles or we're going to tokenize equities. Since January 21 or
But it's mostly been collectibles, or we're going to tokenize equities.
shortly thereafter, people were talking about bringing real estate on chain and bringing,
like that to me is a industry that is primed for disruption. I'm not going to want to rant about
like the notary or the, you know, we'll laugh in 10 years about we had to use to see a signature
priest before we could close the transaction. It just seems very antiquated, seems primed for disruption.
How close are we to this?
How close are we to actually being able
to tap into the equity of our home on-chain?
Or dare I say, go get a mortgage on-chain
because of our on-chain assets.
Is this, and you're,
are we thinking like months away?
Are we still years away, decades away?
How close are we to this becoming
like a real scalable reality um i mean my bet would be definitely not decades and and and probably
not months so so definitely years and i would guess on sort of the order of five um look when
we wrote the people asked us how we came up with a non-fungible token standard and the concept of
non-fungible tokens and the first thing we thought of wasn't cats.
It was actually trying to figure out how would you represent plots of land on the blockchain?
Because it would be hard to create a new ERC-20 for all of them.
And then you have to write software that sort of says all these ERC-20s are the same kind of asset.
They're land, but they're
all individually unique.
What if you sell a piece of land? It became
a whole thing.
That's what Dieter came up with.
You need a new kind of token that
can be part of a category,
but is individually unique.
It's been 10 years
that it's part of the
consciousness of developers and whatnot. It's just a very... For one thing, it's been like 10 years that it's sort of part of the consciousness of developers and whatnot.
It's just a very, for one thing, it's a slow industry.
And yes, there's a lot of waste in individual kind of transactions.
But there's so much like network effects and pre-established behavior and switching costs.
And at the end of the day, the buyers don't buy homes a million times a year, right?
You buy a home every few years at a time. And so yes, you're paying a high tax, but you're,
you're, it's, you're a hard customer to sort of bring into a new, uh, a new environment.
And so I think things like, yeah, home equity lines of credit, that kind of thing will,
will have, um, the most impact and, and sort of, um, the, the, the tokenization of real estate also enables things like, you know, the,
the, for example, on a peak money,
you could have home equity lines of credit on one side of it. And, you know,
the next generation of sort of CDOs and, and sort of baskets of,
of loans, but with full transparency into everything where agents and,
and people can sort of like audit exactly,
hey, what's in this piece of, what's in this token?
What kind of yield sources is it relying on?
So on and so forth.
So I think it's inevitable.
It's just a question of kind of timing.
And I think the first thing that's going to happen is stable coins.
The second thing that's going to happen is, you know, stocks and those kinds of assets
and that kind of derivatives built on top of those.
And then you sort of have the more heavy items.
And it's absolutely bonkers, the kind of efficiency that we can imagine being built on top of these assets.
But you sort of have to sell the supply side, not just the demand side, because the demand side is so intermittent.
I also feel it's inevitable, but I also believe we don't get there, if not for people like yourself
and teams like Flow that are taking these big shots, pushing the space forward. It's not just
going to happen. It's a Herculean effort. It's just, it also, at the same time, it seems so,
like I said, the current system is just so antiquated there's so much better ways
to do it it's just it's a lot of moving parts and it takes yeah the both the demand and the
supply side to get on board and a lot of other entities and municipalities like it's it's a big
lift but it i i think there will absolutely be a day in the future where we look back and like
we make fun of can't believe the process we used to go to to buy a home back 20 years ago.
Yeah.
And that's my belief too, is that it won't be like some guy that comes in from the top
and builds a single solution for everyone.
It'll be people with deep local expertise, whether it's in their municipalities or states
or countries in case of federal jurisdictions.
And those are the kind of folks we're sort of working with.
So the first version might just be
for let's say British Columbia
or for California or whatever it might be.
And then you might have to sort of reinvent it
to be for somewhere else.
And then you might have to reinvent it again
to be kind of an umbrella
that sort of puts everything into one standard.
Makes sense.
The question from the chat I had,
and you maybe have already answered
Dort's question throughout the show today,
but I wanted to pull it up there on screen. He says, man, I onboarded into Topshop.
Flo was my first NFT experience. Heck, Dort is his Web3 identity as a result. He cornered the
market on Lou Dort Topshop moments back in the day, and it's become his whole entire personality
years later. He dabbled in Doodles Wearables as well, but hasn't been back since. What pulls
him back? So in your words, maybe he's not in really consumer defi. I'm making things up for Dort here.
What, what would someone like Dort or someone who was big into Top Shot or
CryptoKitties or NFL all day, and then they've, they've moved on,
what should they look at? And they're not a builder. They don't,
they're not looking for a grant or coming to build on chain.
What's something actionable that they should go check out or look for?
I know the rewards were between, between seasons.
That was their thing that we didn't even hit on,
but got to give a lot of credit there because it was a hit.
Like,
you know,
Steve was on here gunning for his iPad every day and,
and like doing things that wasn't just for points or magical internet
dollars,
but real world products that people were getting rewarded were some
incredible rewards.
In your words,
what,
what should door or anyone else?
What,
what should bring them back?
What should they check out on,
on flow or what should they look forward to?
Well, I think we're having our best season yet on Top Shot.
And so that I would start with that.
You know, there I would either go down the kind of like gaming angle and playing Fast
Break and whatnot, because when most people in the crypto world were participating in
Top Shot, there was only buying and selling on the marketplace, not this like utility and then community.
This are around it.
We have chat in the product.
We have social feed.
We have, it's evolved a lot.
And then the flip side is the economy
is especially of sort of the new season
and everything going forward.
And especially of rookies is rock solid.
And you can go, there's new analytics features
that are keep getting better every single day on Top Shot.
And you can go and see, hey, how have rookies performed over time?
How have rookies performed when we're starting to do better on the court and they're starting to break out, so on and so forth.
And that relationship between on-court action, the marketplace action, the floors being easy to move because the assets are really rare and they get into the right people's hands quickly.
All that stuff's working really, really well.
And so I would say whether you're excited
about the marketplace and sort of the buying, flipping,
or long-term polling, or the sort of gameplay,
the community, the social angle,
the product has evolved light years
since people played with it.
And then I would say same thing with Pinnacle, where Disney Pinnacle, where, again, asset quantities are very tight.
We're really building a sort of tightly controlled economy.
And then there's trading as well as marketplace buys and sells.
So a lot of people find that a lot more kind of social and engaging.
I'm sure investing in that experience too.
And at CryptoKitties, there's the Telegram game,
which is a few hundred thousand users.
But we're starting to think about bringing people
into sort of the next version of the product there too.
So we've been super busy across the teams
and every team is basically like its own little mini studio.
And so basically no matter which IP
or kind of in this case industry
in the case DeFi you're a fan of
we're going to be making
moves, announcements every couple months
and so just follow us on Twitter
and tell us
what you like and we'll tell you
what to play around with. I know I shouldn't out DMs
I'm going to out one
I hope you don't mind.
After my bull posting flow last couple days,
he got in my DMs and says,
he commented on a couple of posts and he followed up with a DM and says,
I think, I quote,
I think Pinnacle may be bigger
than what Top Shot was in 2021.
Let me know if you have any questions
can walk you through it.
So if anyone wants to do the deep dive,
I'm sure there's people on the Flow team as well
or hit up Board of Clint.
There's a lot of Pinnacle fans out there.
I said it earlier, you can't talk
about consumer brands or big brands
that are building on chain and not
have Flow in the conversation. If you are, it's disingenuous.
rattled off some numbers earlier from Disney to Top Shot
and just Ticketmaster
alone probably dwarfs what most chains
have done from a consumer user
based standpoint. It's really impressive. I'm grateful you know, consumer user-based standpoint. And it's really impressive.
I'm grateful you're here. I'm, you know, I'm not, not to be cheesy,
but it's, I have flow and top shot to thank for my crypto journey.
And, and it's,
had it not been for the consumer friendly approach back early on leading the
way there, maybe it doesn't play out like it does.
So I really appreciate not just your time today,
but truly appreciate that the big shots pushing the space forward. You probably could be on an island
somewhere and say, this was fun. I'm going to move on. But you continue to double down.
And something happened this week. I was kind of joking. I was patting myself on the back,
called Bitcoin Bottom in the 80s. Hopefully it was, but it was really more so than just price action.
It's art Basel.
It's this flow announcement.
It feels like there's this feels like we're kind of getting back to,
I don't want to say our roots,
but I feel I'm getting this sense in that we're the large crypto native
brands,
the users,
it feels like we're kind of getting back to the,
those early 2021,
22 roots that created this excitement this fun like
the experimenting on chain the doing new things and yeah just really appreciate you guys from
everything you've done thus far and not you again i i don't say this lightly like you you could have
went the easy route what you're you're attempting to not do that but tackle on some really big
challenges and and push this space forward and much respect anything i didn't today, though, anything that you were hoping to talk about that I
didn't tug a string on or anything we didn't cover that you'd like to share with everyone
before we get you out of here? Yeah, no, look, I really appreciate you saying that.
And obviously, job's not finished. So we're not going anywhere.
And we've got a lot of work to do. In terms of things, look,
the other aspect that we didn't talk about
among the heritage
products, NBA, NFL, Disney, etc.,
is part of our goal is also to
take those users and take
all of those communities and just
bring them into the world of crypto
one feature at a time.
For example, today, you can go on Disney
Plus and you can get access to Disney
Pinnacle, get some benefits there.
You can go through NBA ID.
As long as you signed up there, you get a crypto wallet.
We can start giving you top shots.
Every single NFL game this season, every weekend, there's at least one game going on where you can get an NFL all day account and a collectible specifically from that game.
So, well, how can we kind of pull on that thread and expand it and sort of of find sustainable ways where you know deepen the fan experience maybe with stable coin and yield products maybe
with fungible tokens and and sort of uh sort of creator economies with the athletes that kind of
thing with with us musicians and event spaces whatever it might be um and so we're where we
want to also work with people who have these ideas not not to say, hey, how do I make this guy a million bucks on an NFT drop?
And then, you know, they just go away and never pay attention to those people again.
But how do you actually create the future of social media where you're giving back to the fans as well as kind of creating melding for the creator, not the app kind of in the middle?
Right. And I think that that is what sort of the next um you know big
sort of step forward is and uh and you know just want to jam with everyone who has the same ideas
and like you said we we help folks through the foundation um but i'm also i invest uh as an angel
and i can help connect folks with you know our network of investors all of whom i think share
this vision of crypto is much more than currency and actually should be adding value to everybody.
And if it adds value to everybody through banks and, you know, that goes and NASDAQ listed markets, that kind of defeats the point.
The whole point was without intermediaries in people's control and just software end to end.
And so that's what we're trying to create.
You know what? That kind of was a little unlock for me.
Someone I saw recently said this wasn't the meme coin cycle.
It was the cycle of the institutions.
And it's hard to deny that with the TradFi, the DATs, the ETFs, the Wall Street coming
ETFs, the Wall Street coming in and buying all of our, at least the Bitcoin and ETH.
in and buying all of our, at least the Bitcoin and ETH.
I think, while yes, it's also, it's like, it was inevitable for mainstream adoption.
At the same time, there was this thing about crypto that felt like we were different.
We didn't have to go the traditional route.
I don't want to say better than,
but I think there was maybe,
there's been something this cycle
where we kind of got away from the user,
the active participant.
And I think that's kind of sums up
what I feel is coming back to some degree.
It's not that the institutions are going to go away now,
but just because they're here
doesn't mean we still can't have our fun
in this playground, if you will,
and continue to experiment on chain
and bring some of the fun back.
And yeah, that was, you know, not, not if you know,
if you intended that,
but it was a little bit of an unlock there for me.
So really enjoyed the conversation.
It's been too long.
You're walking back anytime.
I gave the team some flowers earlier, but genuinely mean it.
It's it.
You've built a world-class team around you there and appreciate each and
every one of them and all that you guys are doing.
And yeah, are you in, are you in Miami?
Did I catch that?
Are you in Basel this week or no?
I'm in Miami.
I'm trying to stay out of the craziness as much as possible.
But yeah, we're doing a little off-site here and the weather's perfect.
So from that sense, it's great.
Awesome, man.
Well, enjoy Miami.
Enjoy the experience.
Hopefully not too much craziness, but really appreciate your time this morning.
It's been a pleasure and appreciate you.
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate you.
Good to see you.
Likewise.
Have a great day.
With that, Emilio, I saw you came off mute.
Did you have a quick question?
Anything you want to get on there before you wrap up?
Would be happy to give away a piece from my flow collection to a follower if you want to, I mean, to a listener if you want to do a giveaway of some art during Art Basel.
Cool. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Do you want me to pick a winner
or do you want to pick someone from the comments?
Whatever you want.
Or we can run a raffle or something
and you can pick it tomorrow.
Whatever you want.
Let's do that.
If you're good, just for sake of time,
we'll wind things down.
And are you good to rejoin us tomorrow?
Happy to.
Awesome. Yeah, we'll do a raffle. We'll kick things off. And if you're good to rejoin us tomorrow. Happy to. Awesome.
Yeah, we'll do a raffle.
We'll kick things off with that tomorrow morning.
And may go audio only tomorrow, I think, because I'm, as I said, I'm heading down to Miami here this morning.
And probably I'll be down there tomorrow, but probably heading back maybe during the show.
So we might go audio only TBD.
But I appreciate y'all being here.
Really enjoyed the show.
Big thanks to our special guest
and everyone who contributed. As my buddy Steve would say, you know, he's no longer here on the
show. He too wishes y'all have a wonderful, wonderful day and we'll see y'all soon.
Thanks for tuning into Coffee with Captain, powered by 8Point. We hope you enjoyed the show
and remember nothing we discussed today is financial advice.
Until next time, keep exploring, stay curious, and we'll see you soon.
Have a great day.
