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RUJIRA 0-1 APPLAYER on THORCHAIN! PODCAST #184
Recorded: March 26, 2026 Duration: 2:15:27Space Recording
Full Transcription
I love talking with our family.
That's always the best live stream.
We always, you know, we interview guests and things like that, you guys.
But it's always nice just to talk to the people who are in the trenches with us.
It's a good way to keep everyone informed.
So let's get this intro going for those who may not know what ThorChain or Rujira is.
So you guys, ThorChain is the world's leading Bitcoin deck.
You can swap Bitcoin with 10 different blockchains across 40 different pools without using bridges or WRAP tokens. Check it out at swap.thorchain.org. Swap.thorchain.org. Anyone in the world can use
Thorchain. There is no account to open. There is no KYC required and privacy is a human right.
Thorchain has two tokens, RUNE and TCY. The fees for swapping on ThorChain are paid in RUNE and that's where the
yield comes from. The fees are deducted from the swaps so you don't need to own RUNE to trade on
ThorChain. 10% of the protocol's revenue goes to TCY token holders. Remember to stake the TCY tokens
in order to collect this yield. There are no inflationary block rewards on ThorChain. The
yield is real money paid by real users.
Rune is also currently deflationary as 5% of the revenue is burned.
ThorChain is a full layer one with the ability to create smart contracts on it,
similar to Ethereum.
This app layer is being developed by Rujira.
Wink, wink.
That is the topic for today, but moving on, you guys.
If you need help with ThorChain or Rujira in general,
join the ThorChain community Discord and Telegram group.
Links for those are on ThorChain.org.
Please, you guys, follow ThorChain on Facebook and Instagram.
ThorChain Contact on TikTok.
We need 1,000 followers to livestream on those platforms.
I'm really looking forward to those days.
And always remember, guys,
this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only
and does not constitute financial investment or legal advice.
And with that being said, how's it going, everybody?
I hope everyone's having a great day.
Kenton, what's going on?
Do you got an update for us?
I guess maybe a little bit.
Oh, you know, I did.
I guess a few little things.
One, I apologize, everyone, for our tardiness.
I was being anal about some stuff before we
started to fix on riverside um apologies for last week we couldn't get liver riverside to stream on
on x some glitch whatever happening um seems looks like it's working now so it should be good
um yeah randy has really hit the ground running with meetings and everything, reaching out to new potential integrations, blockchains.
I'm having to turn down meetings because I'm like, dude, I don't have time to be in all this stuff.
So I need to focus, get things done.
You guys know what it's like?
You have to get into flow state, focus on the same thing for a good five, eight hours straight. You know what I mean?
When you constantly, you're breaking it up. You can't get in the flow. So, um, so I have to turn
these meetings, a lot of these meetings down. So I'm like, he can do it. Um, so I can get a few
things done. Um, for example, uh, i don't know if you guys just saw that define
article just went live today so um this is something that i've been trying to get going
and it's just you know i'm gonna blame i'm gonna blame a lot of things on reggie blame canada
is gonna be my scapegoat here for some things but um um i'm canadian i can say that guys so uh um uh but
yeah it's something i was trying to get going with him that we get an article out every week
and it's just it wasn't happening and so um now we've got um you know shout out to lemur labs
guys who are helping us uh with social media and everything. They've been great.
So they're going to help with us start doing these articles.
So hopefully, you know, it's still going to take some time to iron out all the kinks and get all the processes in,
but we're working with these guys writing the articles
and work with our SEO people,
make sure the articles are written for LLMs, right?
So this is, SEO is basically done in a sense, right?
Everything now is going to be for LLMs, right?
Make sure they're, and it's stuff like, you know, having bullet points in an article.
How we, you know, how descriptive is the title?
Even like apparently now the URL that we use, so like on our blog posts,
we need to make sure we have a good URL
because I guess now that LLMs are reading that now.
So anyway, so getting everyone on the same page
so we can start pushing this content out on a regular basis.
And it's not just going to the void.
It's there for, well well it is for humans but
also for llms and then help this is to help repair door chains brand online right so so you know all
those fud articles we can we we can't remove them but we can overwhelm them with with positive propaganda um and uh um so yeah so i've just been working on that the website is just kind of like
i'm sorry guys it just keeps taking forever and um um it's like any week now type deal but i'm
yeah we're close we're close it's just yeah bear with me um that's what i need to focus on that's
why i can't go to these meetings with randy because i gotta just i gotta just stop and focus and get these things
done um one thing i wanted to i wanted to do a screen share and we'll do this live with you
um i've been you guys know I've been working with Masari.
So let me go here.
Can you see Masari?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You see it?
Okay.
So Masari has asked Copilot.
And this is, anyone who's got an enterprise subscription with Masari has access to this and I guess a lot of investors, funds, whatever have Massari's CoalPilot connected to their internal CoalPilot like in their own in their offices
and whatnot. So if we use it I'm going to show you something here see it's a little bit slow. Question.
What, can you see this? What is like what institutions use right so this is really cool
yeah yeah what's this thing based on the most recent available data the top protocol by revenue
is thor chain which generates 11 771 dollars total transaction
kenton just like wow this is beautiful the second sorry guys i i i said this earlier sometimes it
gives you different responses that's still a flex though i'm happy with that answer
happy with that answer but i didn't give you the top yeah okay let me redo it um
but i didn't give you the top yeah okay let me redo it um
uh protocol internet is slow yeah
let me see
let me stop response let's see here we go
yeah can you guys see it okay? It's not too small.
Can you control the mouse wheel up maybe?
Zoom in a little bit.
Oh, did I break everything?
I wonder if it doesn't.
The internet is glorious.
Guys, I'm hard-coded.
I'm plugged in now.
You know what?
Why is it? It knows that I want to see Thor chain. Shoot.
It tells you what you want to hear.
Yeah, but yeah, shoot. I should have pulled it up before. I've tested this a few times now.
There is a grammatical mistake when you spell protocol. I don't know if that matters.
Oh, really?
Okay.
Yeah, I think you need to jump.
One more time.
List of the top.
Yeah, oh, and there you go.
Oh, well.
All right, let's go, Copilot.
Let's see how it goes.
I was all excited to do this live with you guys.
Okay, here it is.
Okay, there we go. Okay, there we go.
Beautiful.
Booyaka, Thor chain there at the bottom.
Number 10.
That's okay.
Notice this.
Oh, it's total revenue 30 days.
Shoot.
So that hovers over.
Before it was showing all time revenue,
like in all history.
And ThorChain still shows in 10th.
So this is cool, guys, right?
I think it's pretty cool. This is wicked we go to Delta with Bitcoin and other like a big chain it's not that big yeah it's quite nice and and if you
notice too near is in there it's wrong and I've brought this up to to masari so we'll
see what they do because near is including their affiliate fees right which those are third-party
fees right right so i'm doing some uh gray hat uh marketing for us um and so we'll see if they fix it but if we go to um
uh where is it data sets
so on the left here this is like kind of the general nav bar everyone in massari sees
i love how cutthroat you are kenton it's a good thing well i'm gonna i'm gonna press them on it
because i'm like listen if you guys are putting up fake numbers why you know why should anyone
use your trust you right so i'm gonna don't i'm i can be slippery guys uh but it's it's you know
it's in it i don't think it's slippery it's honest it's no you know, it's in the, I don't think it's slippery. It's honest. It's, no, yeah, it's,
you're increasing the approximation
to truth.
That's what we should do.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, so apologies
for how slow this is.
So we're in this data sets
and we go to by network.
Oh, is that it? Or is it overview? Oh, sorry, networks all down here. Sorry, it's down here.
This is a default page. I haven't set anything up. This is the default page.
Number nine.
And you can see ThorChain number nine, and it automatically is sorting by 30-day fees.
Very cool.
There we are, guys.
And, yeah, actually, they did fix the spelling.
I'm still on them to fix the logo.
But we're showing up.
Great job.
Yeah, Masari's been pretty good.
They're responsive.
And just one other thing I just want to highlight to you.
I see this spotlight and it says new.
These spotlights are like a brand new feature by Masari.
Like Thor Chain, we were literally our first customer.
Really?
Yeah, actually, I was letting Reggie and Scorch kind of take this on.
So in a setting, you know, in the first few meetings, I wasn't that present.
But now I'm taking it over, getting it done.
They're like, they're like, yeah, ThorChain, we were the first ones to sign up.
Technically, Daba was second.
But they actually finished getting all the data and everything on before us.
I was really anal and sorry about getting everything right.
Like, you can ask Ray.
Ray Analytics, shout out to Ray.
He helped provide a lot of the API endpoints.
And I'm like, guys, this is wrong.
There's too many decimals here.
We need a decimal there.
This is the wrong feed, blah, blah, blah.
So we went back and forth so many times.
It took a few months to get our dashboard dialed in.
So DABA technically beat us.
They were technically the first one to have it live,
but we were the first ones to sign the contract.
And Ethereum is the third so um and i guess so this is like
massaris they're gonna they're really gonna be really selling here going forward and i asked
them like well if you sell more you know you get all these other protocols are we gonna be you
know we're gonna get bumped right they said no we should stay at the top and they're gonna
get added below us awesome so we should stay at the top um who knows we'll see maybe once they
get enough people going maybe you pay an extra premium to be at the top or whatever right but
for now we're here right and um, so this is, you know,
it's nice to show you guys something.
You know, there's some fruits to my labor.
And, you know, yeah.
So we'll, and we saw,
I saw those tweets about the Artemis graph.
You know, people are complaining again,
you know, DoorChain isn't on it. all these guys i see it i agree um chad saw it and reached out to me he's like canton we got
to get on here i'm like duh i know but um these are like they're like 100 grand a year for each
one of these platforms and so i told them like you know i want to do it it's on our list but i got
you know the marketing budget we only have 200 grand in our kitty right now right we're just like
i'm trying to save it for um i'm trying to trying to manage it like you know kind of
move it around like um i think the most bang for your buck right yeah yeah yeah i think we should try
to do some paid ads first right before we get all these platforms yeah so this is how i'm managing
it but and once we have more money then we can afford to do it but i i told chad i'm like listen
we should you know if the treasury's gonna pay for this i'll do the work i'll get it all done
and um when we probably should i think we should like it's, it's,
we got to spend, we have to spend some money, right? And it's just, there's no ways around it.
So I'm hoping with, with Chad and Alix, you know, getting into the treasury,
getting it organized, getting, you know, seeing what's what that I can give us some the,
you know, spend the money on it. So fingers crossed, guys, we can get these what's in Masari.
We get the same thing in Artemis, Token Terminal and Blockworks.
I think they'll do those like the top other top three to get in.
And then that's how we start showing up for investors, right?
People doing research.
You know, that's how we start coming up in results.
Just like, you know, people are using AI
What's the best, you know, way to swap Bitcoin for ETH?
We need Thorchain to start showing up, right? So
The only way to do that we just we have to get ourselves out there. We got to pay to get the content there. So
Yeah, so that's that's what I'm working on
Hey, uh you know we always have updates and i'm
really glad you did that because the community often knows you're working but i'm glad you did
that because it just shows people how much work is involved behind the scenes because i see you
grinding every day you know constantly talking to these third parties like my sorry you got to get
the information right use this no that's incorrect it's a lot of follow it's a lot of back and forth
it's a lot of work so thank you very much for your effort it is and it's guys i i can't tell you
it's so frustrating i literally have to double check everything yes every i sense something
someone they're like oh yeah it's done i have to go check because three quarters of time it's not
or it's half done and then i gotta explain to them to them what's missing, why it's wrong. Then I have
to go get a link to prove that this is accurate or whatever. And it's just like constant, you know,
it's like babysitting a two-year-old, you know, it's just constant attention. And, um, um, but the
nice thing is once these things get done, then they should be done, right?
Then there's, you know, they,
I shouldn't have to be on it as much
and I can focus elsewhere.
But these kinds of things,
it's like been take dragging out.
I just need to stop and get them finished
before I can start anything else.
So, yeah.
Yeah, well, good job.
Now Masari is always gonna be working
in the background for us.
That's such a powerful platform.
So good job, Captain.
Is there anything else or do you think we should transition?
Good, I remembered.
Bitcoin Las Vegas people, if you're going to be there, come join us.
Chad Barefoot is going to come.
You don't have to come see me or Denny.
We don't care.
You don't care about us, but come see Chad.
Our new guy, Randy, new business dev he's gonna be there
he's a really nice guy be nice to meet him in person um pragmatic monkey you're gonna be there
no no no i i wish but uh it's not the right time you know like we're under the very tight budgets
yeah we cannot really uh afford now to spend peak flight tickets to go to las vegas this will come uh in due time but for
now it's a building building and once we start to generate decent revenue uh uh we can start to
relax a little more yeah and for anyone's curious i'm i'm paying my own way i'm going for fun um
i'm assuming you are too denny and i'm not yes i don't i'm not subsidized at all
yeah we're um but for us you know it's easy for us i know you're over across the pond yeah so you
know for us it's easy to go and i have friends going it's going to go hang out try and have
some fun in vegas um so yeah but yeah well i gotta get the link for that meetup. And I can post it.
So yeah, please RSVP people, even if you're a maybe,
please put maybe so they can get an idea.
Because I need to have,
for a venue, right?
And let's see, I see 16 yes and two maybes.
Nice. um so see i see 16 yes and two maybes nice so uh
i'm sorry it's always more people that come because a lot of people find out about it when we're all in vegas and we're talking about hey there's a 13 meetup right and so just more people
end up just flowing in so yeah that's 16 is actually a pretty good those 16 usually are going to bring someone else yeah so um yeah so yeah it'd be great people great great to see everyone meet
everyone in person be fun such a good thing to do such a good thing to do and one day pragmatic
monkey we will get together as well yeah i know that was the fact that the US makes it a bit harder, but it's going to happen. Just a matter of time.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, do you think, Kenton,
now we get ready to get to our topic?
Yeah, stop talking. Let PM Pragmatic jump into it.
Yeah. What do you got for us, man?
So maybe just sharing a quick update and then we can dive in.
But last few weeks have been really about not the most exciting stuff,
but bug hunting and fixing.
So we did a big release of our other book decks, Fin 1.2,
which one of the big changes in there.
It had a few major changes,
like allows to enable the automatic
arbitrage between the various liquidity sources we we aggregate in the order book including the
base layer liquidity via the virtualization strategy we have talked about that many times
before but it also adds at its ccn Liquidity. So that was a big change.
And we also added the IMM fee,
which allowed Roger and Torchained to make money
every time there is some swap from IMM strategies
to real user or to IMM strategy.
Because eventually most of the trading volumes,
just like in any financial place,
is going to come from automatic
trading and the way we do that efficiently is with the automated market making strategy that we build
on top of the order book and so this uh where some there are some big architectural change involved
and uh following that we realized like we tested that of course uh before releasing a live but you
never noticed that you are in actually a real live situation.
And then once it started to go live, we realized it was some issues,
like some pair were incurring some small deficits over time.
So we have been hunting down bugs.
We realized a few other issues with CCL along the way.
We have solved most of it, but there's still one little...
Yes, we were done, but we realized there was still some leakage somewhere. And I think now,
so we have Zefiro and Anse on it full on at the moment. I think we finally got to the bottom of this. So just a matter of
when we know the source, we need to patch it. And then hopefully like in the next day or so,
we can release yet another version. So from one version to the next, we had to bump,
we had to change the interface and it bumped the version to 2.0 just because of our software
versioning works so one more little version bump and hopefully we are finally there and then we can
go back to focusing on so next big stuff will be the rollout of ccl with the actual ui and that
that will be where things like to get really interesting it will allow people to put assets
at work.
The same way you could do in base layer pool,
but with much more custom strategies
and generates returns on any pair of assets that you want
with very custom curve, custom fees.
You can separate the yield from the principal
or keep it compounding inside.
It's a very versatile, very flexible tool.
And once it's live, I'll be very, very delighted to do another live stream
and show you a bit around.
And one of the stuff I've been doing, actually,
I started that because I wanted to test some of the assumptions we are making,
like some of the issues we are having with Finn,
I wanted to test for myself.
So I did my first serious vibe coding projects and i built a back tester for ccl
using real like one minute data from the data we archive from from the other book and um so it's
still like a little pet project it's still i'm gonna improve it a bit more and i will make it
available for the community but it's super cool it's really nice like you you will be able to effectively
select whatever pair play with your ranch do multiple scenarios then play uh click a little
backtest button and it gives you approximately the well it gives you actually very precisely
it's mimicking it's building rust it's
mimicking the logic of the contract very closely of course because it used one minute candles like
you always have trade-off performance versus uh accuracy i'm hinted more really very much more
towards uh accuracy and performance but you still like you compress the time to one minute candle
which is already very granular but still not like a block by block six second candle so it's a not perfect but it's it's very
more than enough to make a very i would say accurate expectation and it's very promising
so i was uh i was playing with for example like a bitcoin uh usdc bear for example, like a Bitcoin USDC pair.
You were setting like a fairly wide range still,
but the weight was with like fairly conservative,
I would say, parameters.
I think we can easily get like to a 20% plus sustainable APR
just from trading the volatility effectively.
And then, of course, the more you tighten your range
or the more you tighten your range
or the more you go when there is a sweet spot to find between how tight or wide is your range and how much spread you set between your orders but you can get to a much higher apr of course but
then of course when you get out of range you have to be happy to be 100 in either the base
asset or the quote assets so there are some trade-offs here but
it's gonna open the door to do a lot of very cool stuff uh two sub trading volumes of course it's
gonna create it's gonna start to create this counterparty liquidity to arbitrage the base
layer pool via the virtualization strategy and uh and yeah and then uh so that's uh very exciting
like i'm enjoying building this stuff very much,
looking forward to share it with the community
and hopefully not too long ago,
maybe even at the same time as we released CCL.
Also CCL, like all the wiring,
it has been a very painful process to,
like people don't realize what,
it's funny, like you were talking about what takes time
and stuff that don't go as planned and your website that is one week away from now.
And it's like this is the reality of a lot of businesses, but software development for sure.
Well, our web static website should be much easier to get across the line than the app there.
So, yeah, for sure.
Exactly.
But it's good. to give you context.
Always take more time. And people often don't realize what's the hardest part in all that. And
I mean, writing the smart contract is relatively fast, but then it's all what come after that like also testing the
refinement but also the wiring of it to the UI how like you connect it to the
analytics you track the right metrics and all this it's it's like it's much
more complicated just doing one smart contract and boom it's there especially
if you want to offer a good UX and the cool stuff is we will have like very nice analytics as well.
So you will be able to, so Kenton, you are from TradFi, you are familiar with metrics like not just APR, but money multiple and the DPI and this kind of realize and realize returns.
Well, we will have that's how we are going to present this like with little table
like where you will be able to see your initial invested capital how much yield you have claimed
so the realized value or taken out of your lp how much the current value of your position and
calculate also symmetric so it's going to be also very helpful for anyone like because a lot of
people going to defy and they start using the tools but if you don't
have your own spreadsheet and start to monitor everything and stick to it
you actually kind of fly blind and the issue is if you have a lot of different positions
it starts to become a lot of manual works and the fact that we can offer that built into the
front end, I think it's going to be a very, very nice feature for people. And we have a lot more
idea of how to make that even more appealing. The on-game really here is the tools we are building
is with democratic access to wealth creation, the broader sense. Really, we are building is we have access to wealth creation, in a broader sense.
Like, really, we are providing tools,
like whether it's liquidation or it's market making
or it's borrowing and lending, all of that,
it's providing tools that allow you to try to catch up
with the social bad life you may have.
Or like, we have a society with an ever increasing
wealth gap because the model is built that the more assets you accumulate the more you can
compound your wealth on this asset plus you can borrow against those so you get a demultiplied
impact and it's getting harder and harder for the average person to catch up.
Well, at least here we put, and if you want to access any stuff like that fancy,
like a hedge fund or private equity fund that may deliver you 15, 20% annual return,
you will not even be allowed to get this opportunity unless you are an accredited
investor and you already have at least 250,000 of assets and an income of...
It's fucking crazy.
The game is designed to fuck you up.
And on top of that, you get that.
So you get fucked because we deny you access to opportunities that will allow you to just
at least compound at the same rate as people who have money you also cannot borrow uh as much because
you don't have assets to borrow against which are you to compound even more money and you get a
double because you also get by uh the fact that the our entire monetary system is a fiat based so
money come into existence the form of debt and so this step means that we over time
always increase the quantity of money because we need that to sustain the ponzi scheme and keep
referencing the existing debt plus repay uh pay the new interests and so if you have asset
infinite supply whether it's real estate stocks or bitcoin uh you uh preserve and mechanically
increase your wealth over time just because of the denominator effect.
Now there is more dollar to value your assets, so mechanically everything else being equal, your assets are worth more.
And so if you don't have those assets, you get further diluted over time.
So we deny you the opportunities that allow you to compound at a top of class rate.
top of class rates and we dilute you by creating always more money into the system and without you
realizing you are being taxed every day and so this is like we get to a point where it starts
most people start to feel it really and that's why we see the financial nihilism and the meme
coins explode and all that it's just like a newer generation that are like, I'm not going to make it anyway if I work out. So I may ask what Gamble and hope for the best.
Well, what we try to do here is really creating tools that try to level the playing field a bit.
And that's really going to be, I think, the first one that really makes a difference and where you
can track your performance. And effectively, the end game here is like start to build something
in a fully decentralized way that allows you to build a complementary stream of income for yourself.
And use that to catch up.
You can really treat your investment in DeFi as a business.
And we give you all the tool to do that.
So that's what we are building now.
Hopefully, CCL is coming very soon.
And after that, there will be another one, another strategy.
So I think it's going to be very, very cool.
Will you guys do some articles or videos on how to set that up so that anyone can...
If no one has any experience in this, but they're like,
I want to learn how this, I want to play with it.
They'll be able to go do it.
Yeah, that would be, I really hope all of you try it.
And yeah, we are going to do a lot of materials once it's ready.
Like, there is no point doing it now.
Like, we are still finalizing the things and the UI is not even fully wired.
That was it there, yeah.
I want to do a live stream just on that with you that is
uh probably or like we can do it together with your accountant as well just walking through
the step like explaining a bit how it works the different possible strategies uh what it looks
like you will have preset stuff but you will also be able to go wide and do your own things like
showing also with the back tester,
how do you, can you play different scenario?
What does it look like?
It's, so yeah, like we would have to do a lot of education,
but the idea is really to make some things at the end,
it remain accessible.
Of course, like it's very flexible,
but you have some preset option.
You can just do that if you want.
I personally always advise people to set their range
at places where they're comfortable to do,
rather than just using blind preset settings,
but that's possible.
I also open the landscape for a lot of people
to come and build strategy on top.
So a lot of people or AI agents,
and we are also working partly on that,
like creating the skilled files across the ecosystem
and making sure that we make all of these apps
AI agent friendly.
So people can just start to spin out their own agents
and try to ascend to another position for them.
Of course, you will have Otto Rogera,
which will be also building on top of that and trading
as an intermediary between
users just looking for
solution and having AI helping you
or any sort of automation
to help you manage your position
if you don't want to do it yourself.
I have a question about AI.
So, like, I was talking to
IBIC, the unstoppable guys, you know,
behind our front end, swap.thorchain.org.
And about, you know, we have to make this accessible for AI gens, you know, how do we do it? get like our like a ThorChain or Regera like SDK library in these LLM models or in these
Git depositories or whatever so that when someone goes and like downloads an AI agent
they're pulling all these libraries and we're you know Regera is one of them ThorChain is one of
them and then they go set up their AI agent to go do stuff,
whatever.
And ThorChain and Rijira is like just part of the package that it's gone up.
And then when they,
if they're using an AI agent to set up trades or do whatever,
we're in that default flow.
No different than having say ThorChain and swap kit,
you know,
you know,
on ledger that we're just part of that list of
exchanges where the user can trade from.
Is that right today?
Is that the way you see it too?
Yes.
I'm not sure.
It's on our side we call it CLI,
but effectively that's creating an interface that is very easy to access for agents with
predefined config. So an agent like right now we are giving like we're writing the skill files and
they can see how to like take a Vultisig wallet and then call the contract with this or this
function and it's gonna do x or y, but it's still like quite a few steps they need to take and then you can
embed a few of those steps into a cli where the agent can just send the commands uh
deposits collateral or take loan or swap or do whatever and uh that makes them make it even more
easy for them so i guess that's what they mean by sdk that's just
different wording um yeah no no i could be please tell me that i say something wrong like i like you
know my uh my lizard brain you know i'm not a dev right so i don't know all the terms um so i'm no
expert either but we have one uh gp with uh not GP from Nami, who is quite into that, who is helping a lot with everything related to AI.
He has been doing other speed files, and he understands this nicely.
It's so important.
Randy and Chad and I had a call the other day, and we were talking about it.
And I was really trying to give, like grind it, you know,
give Chad the gears and grind him.
Like, like we have to position Thor chain and Ruggiero as like AI friendly,
that all the bots can use us.
Even if you think AI is dumb or whatever,
it doesn't matter because the narrative is already out there that there's going to be more
ai agents than humans right and well no no there's that narrative like people already saying this i'm
not saying we're there yet but um and you got to think from an investor's point of view you look at
what's the upside potential what's's my blue sky? What's the
most it could be? And so for ThorChain, not just ThorChain, but DeFi in general, this
permissionless financial system, our total addressable market is the entire planet.
8 billion people can use DeFi, whereas the current traditional financial system, 2 billion people maybe, you
know, you could probably argue it's more like 500 million, you know what I mean?
Yeah, exactly. Let's add that, because you are also bounded by geography in most cases.
Yeah, right. So like, you know, it's fair to say the majority of people are excluded from TradFi.
And so DeFi, its huge upside potential is it's including all the people on the planet.
So we got 8 billion people.
Now, if there's more AI agents than humans, that's another 10, 15, 20 billion AI agents on top of those 8 billion humans that can
use DeFi.
Right?
And so now the numbers like you start adding all this up.
That's what when you see like, oh, it's a crazy valuation.
Why is it so expensive?
Like Tesla, for example, it's so worth so much. People are looking so far into the future,
and they're discounting that to today.
And whatever that delta is,
is what they're willing to pay for the investment.
So we have to put it in people's minds
that not only can ThorChain handle all of humanity,
and Regera,
it can handle all of humanity and all of AI. All the AI agents can tap into Regera, can tap into ThorChain. And then that upside potential in the future is even bigger which should justify a higher price today so um um yeah this is
if what if what i'm saying is the first time i'm listening is like ever thought of like that you
you got to stop and think this is exactly how investing works it's not what it is worth today
it's what people think it could be worth tomorrow and um this is a uh opportunity with door chain and regiro right now is the way we're being priced
it's like we're going to be nothing a few years from now people the market is pricing in zero
growth in us right and it's like all right fine not not all 8 billion humans and 18 billion ai is
might not be using Thorchain,
but some of them are, right? It doesn't have to be all of them, but some of them will be.
So, yeah, rant over.
No, that was really bullish, Kenton. Holy crap. That got me excited over here because I had the same thoughts.
But go ahead, PM. I'll kick it to you.
No, yeah, I fully agree. I mean, it seems already like we are still at the very start of this.
Like when was the first version of StartGPT out?
Like two years ago or something like that?
The progress that it's been making, it's incredible.
I can totally see how in the very close future, most of the transaction, especially on chain,
close future most of the transaction especially on chain like it's such a
much more convenience environment for for AI to trade like they're not gonna
fucking open bank account at Wells Fargo or wherever they are gonna use
permissionless DeFi rails and that was actually it's funny like if you go on the
Roger our website you know what's our initial tagline that's what's actually funny. If you go on the RUGERA website,
you know what our initial tagline,
what it is up to now, we are going to change it,
but it's still like RUGERA,
building the Omnichain DeFi rail for human and machines.
That was really the vision from the start.
Like AI is becoming big
and we are going to provide the race for for agents to to do all
sort of things i think we'll be very well positioned for that because first yeah thanks to doorchain
we have access to defy with native assets and from all those collective chains so that's quite cool
but also i think the level everything is open source not just uh so we have the three different layers effectively you
have the protocol layers as a smart contracts on top of that you have two things you have an API
that kind of and the database that records that in things on chain and do some calculation and
say data back and forth from the from the protocol and to the front end
and then you have the front end and the api part i think here is also very important because these
those agents like for example for ccl position we are gonna index the individual performance
of each position and then we are going to show some form of leaderboards where you can see
all the positions with all the parameters and you can run by a apr by a multiple by whatever
and you can see what perform best and that's also a very good source of information for human but
also for agents to see oh actually what has been working best and i can look at this huge amount
of data and now i can do something
that for a human will take a lot of time very be very complicated but look at oh what was the price
during this period what was the performance during that period okay so maybe i can kind of find some
market cycles or whatever metrics that most humans will not see,
but they can find patterns into the noise and come up with some strategy to
allocate capital more efficiently than the human would.
So I think it's also, it's going to be a very important competitive advantage,
not just provide the basic protocol layer, but also to provide the data
under this protocol
to help those machines
make informed decisions.
And I don't know of any other protocol
that is doing that the way we are building it.
Really?
That's that, I think.
Really?
Have you seen, like,
for example, if you go to Uniswap,
which is the biggest DEX,
like, the only data point you see,
or you see three data points.
You see the current value of your position
at this point in time, not over time,
because it takes a lot of data and costs to index that.
And then you see the current value of the yield
you haven't claimed.
And you see a measure of APR,
which is, I think, a blended average
across the pool you are in.
It doesn't reflect your individual position.
So it's completely off.
If you have a very concentrated position, your APR will be much higher.
If you have a very wide one, it will be much lower.
So it's very, like, not data-rich.
And from the moment you claim your yield, it's gone, and there is no record of that. Well, you can go on chain and look at the claim transaction
for a given wallet and try to find the price of that.
But like, if you want to do that for all the wallet,
all the user, like it's a massive amount of work
given for an AI and a lot of consumption of data,
third party data.
And another thing that I have learned speaking with
internally about AI
is that agents like the path of this resistance because everything they do consumes tokens.
And so that's exactly why the SDK you were mentioning earlier,
what we call CLI, is important
because we reduce the path of this resistance.
They could still figure out how to create a wallet with LTSIG
and how to interact with the contract and do XYZ,
but if we can do all of that in one little line,
certainly it's cheaper for them and so it's more accessible
and they are more likely to use it.
And it's the exact same, I think, with an even bigger impact
when it comes to data, because if you want to build
this data from scratch and looking at a blog explorer which you could probably do on Ethereum
because you have like archaic nodes that's run through the entire chain history that are publicly
available but it's gonna be like an incredible amount of compute and tokens required to complete this task.
And so I think this will also apply for data,
this will also be a competitive edge.
So PM, if you guys are working on the CLI for Regera
and you know, some of the guys are thinking
about doing something for Torchain,
like is this work being duplicated
or they could actually hinder each other?
Like should we put you guys in touch so you can talk and work together?
We haven't started that.
For now, no.
This is just what we have planned.
We are going to need that.
I think Hans may have hinted that he may do some stuff around it.
But for now, no.
This, I was explaining earlier to someone who was complaining about timeline again.
Like we are still in the phase.
Last year, we have built, imagine like Rojira is a house built on Torchain.
And last year, we built the foundation that connects the house to the ground, which is Torchain.
Now we are like building the walls, putting the roof on it.
We are still finding, oh, actually maybe we need a little pipe more here for heating or whatever.
You can enter and exit the house, but you don't have the nice flooring yet.
You don't have the wall painted and the decoration like we'll come to that later uh some stuff like are more urgent than others and like maybe cli will come earlier
before some other things but we are still in the phase for now where we need to build
the world correctly and we need to have to make sure the roof is not going to move and then we'll
move on to uh making all of that more accessible for AI and for humans and other things.
If we do something on the ThorChain side, we get something going, we should, and then is it
something that you guys could add to or collaborate on or would you still do something?
No, I think it would make total sense to have a single interface or like I'm not sure what's the best way to do that.
But yeah, there is definitely like we would need a technical conversation with like having us to speak that will be the most relevant to see what architecturally makes sense. But I think, yeah, I think one single package for Torchain or Gira is the way to go.
I would expect that Torchain one would be,
well, relatively simpler just because you have less things
that you can do at the base layer.
But yeah, at the end, it's the same entity,
it's the same flow, it's the same chain.
So yeah, it makes sense to have different package. So maybe it's good we get so it makes a it doesn't it would not make sense to us different
so maybe it's good we get ours going should be simpler um maybe we already see it uh kind of being used and we'll kind of know if it's working what's not we've ironed out some bugs then by the
time you guys are ready you can come add to it um we've got like you know we. I'm assuming it's going to be some effort
to try and get the CLI approved in these libraries
or whatever they're called.
I can't imagine.
Can anybody contribute to these things?
So that part I'm not familiar with.
So when you say you get that source approved
as part of other libraries,
are we talking about agent framework like Hades, iOS, or this type of thing?
Dude, I know enough to sound stupid.
Okay.
Don't trust me to think that I know what I'm talking about.
I don't.
Dude, I'm worse than ChatGPT right now.
I'm just barely stringing words together. That makes
sense. So
but there is this extra step where actually you get to get
your SDK effectively integrated into other stuff. Okay, so yeah,
I think this would make even more sense to collaborate, make
sure we have only one entry points for everyone. So yeah,
definitely.
I mean, if you are starting on that anyway,
add me to the group chat and I'll see what makes sense and when to get that info on our side.
Okay.
I'll let you jump in.
Yeah, you know, I just listened to what you're saying PM and, and I,
I, the, a lot of things when it comes to investment is how do you know you're
onto something, right? I think that's, that's a common theme.
Investor they want to find the next big thing.
And I think a big indicator is when you're actively building the thing you're
building and you're encountering problems you would have never anticipated,
just error after error, issue after issue.
And that's because you are basically
treading unknown waters. You are
carving a path through a jungle that's never happened
before. I mean, we have a decentralized
app layer that is
fully auditable, top to down. There is no
centralized component, enshrined Oracle, blah
blah blah, right? It's very powerful.
So, I'm very patient
with this because I know what you guys are doing is really
big. There is one question patient with this because I know what you guys are doing is really big.
There is one question, and this is a really hard question. I think it's a hard question. I don't understand this. So I'm going to do my best and I'm going to hopefully kick it to you, PM,
maybe break it down a little bit. So before I ask it though, I got to break some things down. So
the question really is between the relationship between rapid swaps and arbitrage on the app layer.
Okay. And so just to let the audience know,
ThorChain has something called a streaming swap where you take one swap and you break it up into
many blocks, right? It allows arbitragers to rebalance the pools. A rapid swap, which has
been alive for four days and we're up to $2.5 million in volume, which is very impressive
for four days. The arbitragers have learned how to do it.
But basically, a rapid swap is like a streaming swap
on steroids where you could do multiple swaps
intra-block within the block, if that makes sense.
Now, that does not improve the price execution on ThorTain,
but it makes ThorTain faster.
And on the first value, we're twice as fast, right?
So there's that.
We now have faster volume going through
14. Very powerful. Now on the app layer, arbitragers can also use the secured assets
right to arbitrage. And this actually, as far as I understand, will make our quotes better.
So just check it out. This one I'm trying to get to. You have rapid swaps faster.
You have arbitrage on the app layer, which means much better price execution potentially.
The thing that people ask me, the thing that I don't understand is how do these things touch each other? Because they're rapid swaps happening on the base layer. Arbitrage is happening on the
app layer. So can you break it down from the perspective
of an arbitrage? Are these things happening concurrently? Would one arbitrage have been
using both things at the same time? How do we that work?
So we are internalizing the arbitrage as part of the ecosystem activity. So I mean, an arbitrager could come and also sell a PTC on Rojira and sell it in the liquidity
of the other book and at the same time buy it cheaper on the base layer.
That's a possibility.
But realistically, they won't be able to compete with the virtualization strategy, which gives that to everybody, anybody that
use Rojira and all the Roji token or that is a node operator on Torchain, effectively partially on a stream of the revenue created by this flow.
And what the virtualization strategy does, it is this mechanism.
mechanism so you have to understand how uh things work on tor chain like the swaps uh it's not like
So you have to understand how things work on Torchain, like the swaps.
another chain when you you can have an mv because the order of the transaction is uh is defined by
uh by the node operators effectively here here on tor chain it's deterministic for base layer swaps
it's uh always runs uh they happen always at the end of the block and it's always ranked
always ranked they happen always at the end of the block and it's always ranked from the highest fee
to the lowest fee so the network makes sense network uh preview prioritize whatever it's
returning the more revenue and because of that uh you cannot have atomicity between the
the best area and the app layer and that's why we came up with a virtualization strategy. So you cannot have MEV happening,
like somebody buying and selling on the app layer,
like inside the same block,
I'm going to buy on the app layer where it's cheap
and sell on the base layer where it's less cheap,
and then we keep going.
So that's not possible because,
transaction happened in a certain order
at the end of the block on the blockchain
and after all the transaction from the base layer.
So we have the virtualization strategy which uses the landing market as a bridge financing
for the duration of the block effectively and it's gonna say oh it can look at the state of
And it's going to say, oh, it can look at the state of the base day year pool, say, oh, if you want to buy this quantity of Bitcoin for this amount of USDC or run or whatever, you can get that on the base day year.
So I'm going to borrow this output that you could get, give it back to you, taking a little premium because, of course, you always have incertitude in the execution inside the block. And now you can do your stuff on Ruggira,
get via the virtualization strategy access to the base layer liquidity and keep doing other things.
Now where this becomes, and so that allows atomicity,
and directly with the base layer liquidity inside the order book.
And then at the end of the block, the virtualization strategy is going to execute this base layer swap
and get back whatever, if it was a USDC for BTC, it's going to get back the USDc on the base layer so let's do the full swap somebody wants to buy on the app
layer btc with usdc the virtualization strategy is going to look how much uh btc can get for this
quantity of usdc on the base layer it's gonna borrow those btc give them and fill the swap
of the buyer take the usdc wait for the end of the block
at the end of the block do the usdc swap on the base layer pools get back the btc repay the loan
and hopefully keep a little margin most of the time at least and by doing that now how do we
so so by doing that you have an automatic uh... So by doing that, you have an automatic...
Sorry, so another important innovation we did with Fin 1.2, 1.3,
the latest version we released,
was this automatic arbitrage at the end of the block.
So the virtualization strategy is quoting every block
based on the state of the base layer pool.
And you will have other sources of liquidity that live on the state of the base layer pool and you will have other source
of liquidity that live on the app layer ccl will be the biggest one to start and then you have also
real user orders and other things and every block at the end at the end of the block it will actually
at the start of the block on rogera it will match also different sources of liquidity and if there
is any overlap the overlap is retained
as protocol revenue and then it flows into the revenue machine and it's shared with stock chain
and the and the rogy stackers uh and so via uh via this mechanism we effectively arbitrage
between the liquidity available on the app layer and the liquidity in the base layer group. So whenever price deviates enough, and right now the deviation required is quite high
because base layer imposed a 10 bps fee per leg on a secured asset transaction.
So that means 20 bps at least, plus we have the IMF of 2.5 bps,
plus we put a 10% margin just in case of intra-block execution.
So it's like you need still like 32.5 BIPs or so,
deviation to trigger an arbitrage.
But that's still like a much better execution than what you see.
Remember the article I published,
we're looking at the typical deviation, and was like 40 bips in average with over like 30% that were above like 60 bips.
So it's a big gain that we can make by just always arbitraging just slightly above this 32.5 bips and that will improve the pricing of the base layer.
And that's also effectively how we are gonna improve so that's just for the
the pricing part so and the same mechanism of uh visualization strategy flowing liquidity back and
forth between base layer pool and a player can also be used with uh rapid swaps and that's how we also help on the speed
of execution so that's the second part of what we were asking about now uh that's not live yet but
we are after ccl is out i think uh next big things we will focus on will be improving this uh
virtualization strategy to make it aware a bit less now it's kind of quoting a bit blindly
and now next we want to make it aware of the liquidity not just the liquidity in the base
layer pool but also the state of the swap queue and that from that moment the liquidity the
virtualization strategy will be able to see oh actually there is this massive uh five million swap and i have so it
will always be a function of how much liquidity we can grow up here the more we grow the liquidity
the more we can facilitate those uh those volumes this arbitrage and generate volume fees uh and
that's what i have been saying all along like it's really the biggest thing we should drive to grow
is tvl in uh imn pools That's your biggest contributor to revenue.
It will be clear when I start to when we have some analytics and I can show you
very precisely.
You already did. Yeah, basically ADR 24.
Yes. Yeah.
Basically, arbitrage alone just revolts in huge one, but continues.
So it's a it's big, but the next thing, it's number would be interesting as well.
And so now once we do this upgrade, now the virtual strategy can say, oh,
actually, there is this big swap coming in. I have enough liquidity to price
maybe half of this swap or the entire swap from the app near liquidity so instead of doing that by little chunk currently it's the virtualization
strategies uh price little chunk and uh like two three four chunks uh away from the center price
of the books and you you will always typically the excess arbitrage will necessarily consume just
the top of the first check now we can make a much much bigger change because the visualization
strategy knows that there is this big swap coming in.
And then at the end of the block, because he has got it much more, it has borrowed much
more for the vaults, so it's also dependent on how much the liquid there is in the vaults
to facilitate this back and forth.
And it borrows that and it's fitted in the swap and it knows that it's going to be consumed
via rapid swap in the same block.
So now it can act effectively, it competes with the external arbitrage, but internally
and using the liquidity provided on the app player as a counterparty.
And so because it competes with targeting a lower margin than your average arbitrage,
and not necessarily because arbitrage are greedy, but just because the arbitrage loop
can be closed much more efficiently because we do everything inside the one block effectively well
arbitrage have to take the risk that okay i'm buying now on tor chain i need to move the funds
to a centralized exchange to close the loop or i need to have a stock of each asset on each side
on both sides it's just not as efficient as doing everything inside the same block and inside the
same ecosystem so we can price also more aggressively and because also we have vested interest to see
the store chain succeed and just try to maximize volume and revenue for everyone.
We are all tied to that.
The bigger the volume of store chain, the more we can get this arbitrage flow going and benefits
on both side.
So we can use that to improve both pricing
because we price arbitrage lower.
And then once we have a bit of data,
it seems rolling out,
I will be pushing to reduce the secure assets
mean slip fee from 10 bips to 5 bips to see the impact.
Because the more we reduce it,
the more it should improve the pricing of the base layer
and the more it should improve volumes
because now you don't need to wait for as much deviation to to arbitrage so there will be a
interesting optimization to to be made there um and uh anyway like the money uh torture receive
less uh from uh the secure asset in city it's really it will receive uh so if this works
increase volumes and revenue uh on the player side it will receive back so if this works, increase volumes and revenue on the player side,
it will receive back that in the form of profit share with the player.
So there will be interesting dynamics to play with.
That will be just parameter tweaking and we'll get there.
That will be the fun part.
But that's so with that mechanism, we can improve both pricing,
but also speed of execution.
And by being just like any, effectively you can think of the app layer via the virtualization strategy as an arbitrage of the base layer, just like any other arbitrage, except that instead of using Binance or an external liquidity sources to take the other side of the arbitrage we use the app
layer the app layer liquidity so it's an internal source of liquidity is this not like internalizing
is it like this meme with the elephant trunks holding you
because don't we need an external market to arbitrage?
No, it's not because you need to build liquidity on the app layer.
So that's the way actually that Torchain can scale TVL again,
because the base layer pool can't be scaled anymore,
post the Torfile.
And there is no magic.
You can be counterparty of the swaps only if you have enough liquidity to
take the other side so in liquidity of both sides we need to grow the liquidity of the player to be
able to do that the more we grow it the more we grow the pie for for for everyone so it's not the
trunk of the elephant uh pumping itself that's uh uh there is uh no circularity and that then also
that's the beauty um you still need like external arbitragers that
will always be there because this system kind of auto balance with the liquidity on one side
the other up to a certain point but if there is too much deviation one side or another at some
point the base here won't be uh the up here so it won't be anymore, or will be dry out and cannot take the other side.
And that's where arbitrageor needs to come in and push back.
Now imagine, the applier has been taking a lot of BTC
from the base layer pool to the applier liquidity
via this arbitrage mechanism.
And now there is actually, in reality,
it would be like always tiny half a percent,
one percent deviation maximum.
But now there is this little gap.
And effectively, the torching ecosystem as a whole,
Apple Europe's based on liquidity, is missing Bitcoin.
And so Bitcoin is more expensive there.
And then we need to come back and uh uh buy it or whatever direction buy the bitcoin and uh and take the
usdc uh or the other way around depending on what where is the balance but they you always need
external arbitrage to rebalance the pool and that's like in a global open financial ecosystem
especially even more on blockchain that's how it works at the end you everything is connected
on blockchain that's how it works at the end you everything is connected one little uh move
of a butterfly there is gonna have a ripple effect everywhere plus or minus the fees so
as long as the deviation will be enough to cover all the fee and leave a little profit you can be
sure that an arbitrage or somewhere will be there to uh to capture that and that's why it's beautiful
and that way you want to build the machines that make money on volatility because this is always gonna be there like unless we get involved into some crazy
world where all the agents super intelligence price uh everything and we get to a market equilibrium
where everything is priced at the exact price it should be and nobody wants to transact anymore
but even that like the world is not static like every uh new second every
new real world block you will have some change someone will suddenly need to sell assets to buy
your house or buy a car or pay for surgery and also there will always be somebody doing some
transaction and always going to create an imbalance somewhere which is going to flow throughout the entire ocean of liquidity uh that
is uh the financial market and so you want to be the system that make money on volatility that's
what we are doing here so uh my wheels are turning on that one i was really doing my best to follow
everything you say and so i just want to try and make a simple statement you just i'm trying to
boil it down in simple words for people to understand.
So with the app layer, because we have BTC in a vault,
exogenous assets, there will be a secured version of that, right?
So that vault of separate BTC for the secured assets,
up to a point, you can think of that as a temporary Binance or something
that you can arbitrage against, up to a point, right? That's
where the wind comes from. But then once there's an equilibrium there, then it can't work anymore.
So the deeper the secured assets from the exogenous BTC, the more you can do, which helps
the price execution. Is my understanding correct? Yes, that's correct. On one side, that's correct. The more BTC you have, the more you can be the counterparty of the base layer when somebody is actually buying BTC and reserve, BTC reserve of secure asset and move it back
the other virtualization strategy into the base layer pool.
And the other way around, if we also have secure USDC
and if actually somebody is selling a lot of Bitcoin
and putting, sorry, buying a lot of Bitcoin
and putting a lot of USDC, sorry, selling a lot of Bitcoin
and taking a lot of USDC out a lot of usdc sorry selling a lot of bitcoin and
taking a lot of usdc out we can put back the usdc from the player into the base here he has the same
mechanism so it goes both way uh on every move of this wave we collect a bit of fees torchain and
regira and so as long as it's keep giving a wave that goes back and forth, the volatility of the
market, we make money.
The only extreme case is one of those assets goes to zero and never come back.
Then you lose your capital and you're holding the bag of the asset that is now
worthless. So if you do that with a mostly exogenous asset like btc and the big stable coin
your this risk is fairly low if you start to list all sort of uh uh crappy icon with uh no economics
and the high inflation uh that's gonna be another issue but that's not the position where the
chinese at all right right okay so so i'm trying to think of simple ways to explain this
to like an arbitrage, right? Because, so would it be accurate to say that the arbitragers that
taken into account, I think it's maybe obvious question, but I just want to make sure my
understanding is crystal clear. The arbitrage... The arbitrage don't have to, like,
the APR is effectively competing with arbitrage. Okay. So, the arbitrage don't have to understand every
anything like the arbitrage can continue to arbitrage okay they are doing and using uh uh
rapid swap if it's there now to to arbitrage more efficiently but the answer
the Ruggira, the applayer, via the virtualization strategy, is just another arbitragier.
rudy ross yeah player he has a virtualization strategy is just another arbitrage
Arbitragiers don't have to understand if they can look to understand for curiosity's purpose,
but they don't have anything to do with that.
The system Ruggira is built to be an arbitragier itself via the virtualization strategy.
Okay, so Ruggira is...
I'm so glad I asked this question, so I understand.
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, you guys.
I do apologize.
No worries.
It's complex stuff.
Yeah, so the app layer itself is the only party on that side of the arbitrage
when it comes to rebalancing the pools of the vaults, right?
Like, an arbitrager can't hop on Ruggiero and start playing around with these tools,
is my understanding correct?
No, an arbitrager could.
Okay.
But he will have a competitive disadvantage because the decentralization strategy has, all CIMM strategies have a 2.5 bips fee.
Okay.
An arbitrator or anyone doing regular orders will have either 15 bps taker fee or 7.5 bps maker fee.
Okay.
So there is, by design, and also, first, because IMM strategy are doing most of the volumes,
so you want to lower the fee to maximize the volumes, and they provide a service that traditional users don't.
But also because by this I want to internalize that,
I want to really democratize access to wealth creation.
That's part of it.
Like now if you're on Rule G or if you're on Rule,
you get a share of those arbitrage profits that are internalized.
And it doesn't mean like at the end, arbitrage also probably they won't have much interest in arbitrage directly from the base layer to the app layer.
I'm sure there will be some weird routes or stuff where it still makes sense.
But it doesn't mean like they will disappear far from that. First, we will always need them to rebalance whenever we have reached, exhausted the liquidity
on certain sites on the app layer.
So there will be a constraint based on how much liquidity there is on the app layer.
But also, some of those may have better arbitrage opportunity because on Binance, the price
is dislocated in a different way compared to the app layer.
So actually, there is an opportunity there. and maybe they actually have even lower fees.
A lot of the arbitrageurs do a lot of volumes, so they are like sometimes at even zero pips tier fee,
or very close to that on certain centralized exchanges.
So they may still be able to to get that so so really like you have to see ruji as uh the app layer is itself
uh a participant in the arbitrage of the base layer via the virtualization strategy it has an
edge over other people who try to do that directly using the player liquidity to arbitrage the base
layer but it doesn't remove anything for the arbitrageur from what they are
used to they can continue to arbitrage against external venues actually there will always be a
flow of arbitrage on external venue required to rebalance the pools when the full system
rogera plus torching liquidity is in balance and uh yeah and that's it and they may still be able to uh beat uh the applier uh
on arbitrage because they may have lower fees on their centralized exchange or just because the
price deviation there at a point in time is more favorable than the price deviation on the applier
okay okay i'm gonna leave it there go ahead kentton you can keep if you want to keep going but if no my brain's broken go ahead the so i'm
curious i hear a lot of fees pm see like there's the secured asset fee there's the maker taker fee
you know this starts adding up no also i mean the maker take your I mean, if you are the app players, that's if you are a user of the app players.
The IMM, so the virtualization strategy, has a different fee which is much lower, 2.5 bips.
But yeah, it adds up, like we have a discussion before, at the end, it adds up,
and that's why there is always a sweet spot to find between how much fee we charge
and how much total revenue we collect.
And I think we will have to, once the system is in place,
I know 9Rim Familiarco was playing with that at some point.
I think we'll have to revisit that and see,
it's just looking to find an optimal.
There is a moment where you can put zero fee and you will
maybe get 100 of the volume but it will make no sense because you don't make any money you maybe
set a five percent fee uh the rough time the five price deviate most at five percent you will get
some volumes but it will be a very minor but much bigger and then there is a full world in between and that's empirical uh experimentation that would give us the answer but i think currently definitely there
is like 10 bips on each legs and secured assets it's a lot so i think what's like i want to also
put in place uh at some point some analytics to replicate this is going to be a lot of data so
i have to see with the team if it's a doable in a efficient way like i have some idea how we could
do that but effectively some stats to monitor what i was showing in my article which were
analysis i did on excel i want to have a real-time dashboard that would show the quality of execution of Torchain,
like tracking the execution price, the price of the pool at the end of a one-minute candle,
let's say, versus the enshrined oracle price, and look at the standard as a typical deviation.
The closer it is, the better the execution from the base layer.
And there will also be an interesting
metric to look at besides revenue it's also like quality of execution and uh at the end it's a
it will be linked like if uh when you can price more competitively you should be getting better
volumes that's why nia has been also taking quite a bit of market share.
So this should play there.
And then, of course, the more we reduce the fees,
the more we should see this price of the base layer of food
converge towards the general market price
measured by Enchwein Oracle.
But also, and so we may get more volumes,
but also we'll be getting less revenue because to get
more volume, we have to compress those fees. And then it's really finding these sweet spots
between the volumes versus fees. I think, you know, I never ever saw any final report or anything from the fee experiment last fall but my
understanding of what cow told me just kind of over the phone was it what what
he was saying is that basically our volume is inelastic I was getting mixed
up so no matter what the price is we have the same elastic cases yeah and so
care about this yeah so in theory we, he was saying in theory, we should actually go to like 50 basis
points.
I think that's true just up to a certain level.
Yeah.
Let me finish.
So like, and you might think, okay, well, we should charge more, right?
If that volume is going to go, we shall make more money.
That's why October was a really good month yield wise for us because we're charge more, right? If that volume is going to go, we shall make more money. That's why October was a really good month yield-wise for us
because we're like 20, 40 bips or something.
But that might be true of our current volume,
but that won't be true of attracting new volume.
And I think it'd be pretty short-sighted.
So I'm a huge fan of us lowering our fees.
And in my mind, I'm'm like we don't even need
to run a study we just need to see like what is Binance Coinbase doing and we just have we have
to our goal should be meeting them you know if we can match them then we should start you know
sucking volume away from them right because in my, I don't know how we can,
unless we're at the same fee level as them or lower,
I don't know how we're going to attract that volume.
Like arbitrage volume, like high-frequency trading volume.
Retail users, that's fine.
I'm sure we can demand a premium for that.
But for these arb bots it just doesn't just come
down the fees so um yes but i mean again like you what you that's true if you want if you want to
maximize volumes purely but not revenue but there is uh and remember uh centralized exchange they
make money also not just on fees they make money on liquidation, giving you crazy leverage and then liquidating you without you understanding why and taking out of your collateral.
There was a way to make money.
I think we still need to have a very pragmatic approach here and look at the end what we want to maximize is uh its revenues cash flow and uh are you are you suggesting that the like
centralized exchanges they might actually purposely have cheap fees get people trading
on them and then they make the money on the forced liquidations yes but also like they have different features so they can also internally effectively arbitrage and capture spreads between the volumes between people who have a centralized exchange and you are actually a developer there and you know exactly how the code work which is
very little people because it's a black box uh so so but i'm pretty sure there are a lot of different
shady stuff they do to to make money at different level because nobody can verify and it's very easy
when you have a lot of different parties uh that have a rough understanding of their balances,
but not a granular one every single second
to actually play on the change in price,
the volatility again,
to take a bit here, a bit there.
So I'm not sure like just trying to mimic their fees, right?
I think we should experiment once we have enough liquidity on the applayer and we can really play.
Let's start to do a little round of experiments again and we can go like very low.
The issue is if you really want to get, because it's also hyper market dependence.
In a period where we have very little volatility,
you want to have low fees because things are not going to move much
and you're not going to make much volume.
Actually, the higher your fees, the more it's going to take to trigger volumes,
to have an active deviation to make an arbitrage outcome.
So you want to make that list for a few weeks.
I think Torcheng was doing just one or two weeks.
I think this is too short.
But of course, it comes back to the cost
because it is reduced about your volumes or your revenue.
Maybe you do a little more volume, but your revenue for the same period,
it's going to be hurtful.
So I think maybe at the app layer we can
be much more granular so i think uh we will probably experiment by doing uh different uh
changing the fee on different uh pools different pairs with different fees at the same time so
overall it's the same market volatility but we can compare compare how things work and how ultimately it drives volumes of revenue.
On the base layer, I don't think you can differentiate feed per pool plus
the API is in quite a net of feed, so that shouldn't matter for external consumers.
But I don't think you can set up with this level of granularity so yeah it
will need probably to be a bit longer experiment but yeah I think that's something we should
do and we can experiment super low like one bips or two bips but I'm pretty sure that
will be a big drag in revenue and I don't think it would be sufficient volume to compensate.
Yeah.
Because at the end, like remember, like most of it is really like, it's a volatility,
like what's the average volatility and how much can you maximize, like what's the fees that will maximize the time
like where there is enough deviation that you can capture your fees from this volume versus having to wait for longer because your fee is larger.
So you need more deviation, but when you capture it, it's more money.
It's really a game of finding the balance for me more than trying to mimic centralized exchange.
So rapid swaps, I can't remember if I actually
explained to people what they were
rapid swaps you can
before dark chain you can place one
swap per block
now you can place
two swaps within a block
and that's a setting
it's purposely set at two right now
and then I
and this affects L1 trades,
secured assets, trade assets, right?
Everything on ThorChain, right?
What would happen if we...
I think is the limit...
What's the max we can go?
Is it eight swaps per block?
Or is it actually unlimited?
I didn't know there was a limit.
I could be wrong
i could be wrong i for some i have it in my head for some reason but um anyway if limit or not
if we go to three to four five ten swaps per block would that make things much faster on
apple air too we see much more improved arbitrage, much better pricing?
Not, it would not be, I mean, it would be more volumes.
It probably would be net more volumes.
It's just like things would get filled in bigger chunks at a time.
So net, yeah, I guess you will see more volumes just because now you have fulfilled one thing in one block.
And so currently, I think there are swap compensated each other.
So what RappiSwap does effectively is you get somebody buying
on one side, somebody selling on the other side.
But if it happens in the same block,
you can compensate back and forth.
And instead of waiting one swap, you compensate one and get the others and wait till the next block you can compensate back and forth and instead of waiting one swap you
compensate one and get the others and wait the next block and compensate you can say ah you are
streaming on this side and you have 10 swap coming you are streaming on this side and you have 12
swap coming well it's 10 10 of similar size i'm gonna ping pong back and forth between those two
and i'm gonna feel as much as i can uh up to uh whatever's currently just two uh back and forth
up to whatever so currently just two back and forth i don't think there's any uh i don't know
if there's any limits probably there is i remember i think i remember much more yeah so so i think
what chad i'm sorry interrupt you pm i think that the limit is it's a diminishing return right the
more intra inter swap to do per block adds computational burden right and the speed increase like it
asymptotes to to zero percent like like you know what value it to it's you know it takes half the
time value three it's three times so it's 33 percent then value four it's 20 and then it's
you know 16 or whatever right okay so there is a physical constraint due to the complexity of calculation that's uh
it adds more burden to the network just like to process all this stuff internally and so you know
you you increase the value but you know the the rate at which you increase the the the rate at
which the speed increases goes down in a linear mathematical well not linear asymptotes but you know what I mean, yes, go ahead
like quadratic
the function of Cosmos and Tendermint
it's
like adding more nodes makes things
slower
there's that too, but just if you have more interest
like more interest swaps per block
that just requires more
you know, more processing power
all that stuff
and then the more you add it gets faster but the that just requires more processing power, all that stuff.
And then the more you add, it gets faster,
but the rate of increase of the faster execution is less.
So there's a magic there.
Maybe it's 8, maybe it's 12, maybe it's 10.
Maybe that's right, came up with that number then.
Yeah, I think that's what it was.
Go ahead, PM.
Sorry.
OK, that makes sense i i i wasn't aware of the the details like
uh of this implementation and that like the physical constraint of it effectively so it's
like you can say the uh basically uh as a maximum capacity of blocks can do and i guess each back
and forth uh increase is i content as transaction, but it's not one transaction,
it gets every back and forth is exponentially more
computational in some expensive.
And so you get a limit there.
Okay. Yeah.
I mean, we will have to,
I mean, that's more for answer for me in reality,
but we will have to find that we'll play with whatever
are the rules of the game and
the constraint we just factors i whatever we uh we do with the authorization strategy so that's uh
but for us yeah i think it's just it's a net positive uh it allows to to facilitate uh more
like larger chunk of volumes in uh in a single block so it's good and yeah i i don't know like
yeah i i that's i i would guess that it can create some extra volumes but honestly i i'm uh
we'll ask chat next i just made a note for myself let's chat next thursday
well um i'm sure he'll love to talk about it and you're welcome to join pm if you have
questions too right and by the way guys you're always open this is an open floor guys like uh
we put the link out there for someone wants to come up and ask a question like this is not just
us three if you want to join have a question i've been looking at your questions guys and you're
you're trolling you the one question is when when like when yeah that's always the one question is when, when? When, when. Yeah.
That's always the one question.
I know. With an H, guys, then we'll answer.
Maybe we do that.
We get some questions.
Well, you know, that was the big one there.
Well, here's the thing.
I'm actually seeing not a lot of questions.
And please, guys, go to Rujira Telegram, or you can put it in the chat right here.
Just tell if you have a question, but that was the big one I saw was the relationship
between rapid swaps and concentrated liquidity or arbitrage, I should say.
Man, so it's a new frontier.
And it's, I really, I mean, there's comes a point where you guys are encountering problems
that you did not anticipate, which is normal when you're building something that's ever been built
before. Um, I just like to think what Kenton said earlier, he was talking about, you know,
8 billion people, free access, and then the AI agents. Um, I really think we're, I think what
it is, you guys correct me wrong. I just think we're that early. We are built, we are the first
ones building this,
this unique implementation, decentralized top-down,
no centralized component.
We're focusing, and I think that was brilliant, PM,
how you guys, you're focusing on the future,
the AI agents, you want to make it Israeli available.
I think you guys are great thinkers.
I just want to thank you very much.
You guys are doing a great job.
And just keep going, keep doing what you're doing.
And if there's something I can do better to help educate, I'm doing what I can.
But there is a delay between when you guys come up with something and when I understand it.
And I'm doing my best, but it's really cutting its stuff.
You are great, like most of you.
We are going to do a teaching session when we have CCN, and then you will have plenty of things to show around.
That's going to be an important one.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
I think just like what Grassroots Crypto does when he makes videos
and he has like pictures, right?
That's so helpful because I'm trying to construct a mental model of everything
and I can sort of do it, but it's really harder.
If I had pictures, that's good for everyone's brain, right?
He has an old videos that
is still relevant of how uh the virtualization strategy work yeah yes okay
okay man this is this has been a this i like this i love doing this stuff this is great um
kenton is there is there anything else um i'm man, you know, this has been a lot.
You can probably start wrapping it up unless there's another topic or something you wanted to get into.
Yeah, is there anything?
Something else you want to talk about?
I think that's really, like right now, it's priority is really fixing fin.
That's hopefully like now I think we are we have the the ultimate source and
by the way it's good like uh from the outside like i see a lot of people complaining on telegram and
all that but this is good it's happening early it forces to also improve the
reliance of the system so for example to pinpoint we are struggling to understand what was going on
exactly because it's a very complex system with all those flow and the arbitrage between those different sources and the
virtualization strategy it's it's a lot to of data to process and we build this invariant scanner
and now we have a way to systematically check every block okay in that block that's where all
the transactions on this contract this is all the flow that came in went in that's the flow that went out does all the balance balance yes no if no oh okay there is a deficit
occurring there and we can pinpoint stuff so it makes also a better more resilient uh infrastructure
for us to uh tackle potential issue in the future as well so but so that's uh that's really like the
focus now uh back i mean this is hand-to-hand with the ccl
once we have those two uh uh together next we will uh we'll release ccl like it's getting very
close the ui i saw it earlier uh uh it's starting to like we changed so midway what is chanit was
gonna be a different page now we are gonna integrate it directly into a registrate the
other book so you will have just a your side panel where you normally place your order you
will have a button and suddenly become an interface to play ccl you can still see your trading view
chart you will be able to move directly on the chart um your your range and you will see i just
the liquidity address distribution adjusting automatically like it's gonna be very nice and
and yeah very well uh i think the thoughts and that are presented uh and so yes that would be
the next big stuff and uh and yeah what this is out this is gonna be a a big step forward uh yeah
it took longer than i expected but uh that's for the best and uh yeah the back
tester i built was also very helpful in pinpointing some uh difference in economic design like it's a
contract was not behaving or the ccl strategy wasn't behaving the way uh we were our certainly
i was expecting to behave so we were able to fix that as well so all those things like they are very important it's better be a bit late but not rush things and when they finally get out
when we say it's good to go it's uh it has been better tested already a bit and uh people can go
with more confidence with something that works as intended yes and that's 100 true build it right
the first time you guys are doing something's never been done before. Just get it right. Now, I actually do have some questions I thought about, and I think these are important human questions. I'd say this to Kenton or anyone else. How is Hans? How is the team? I always ask Kenton, everyone's working really hard, everyone's really grinding, make sure everyone's mental health is okay. So how's Hans doing? Is he doing okay? needs a break you tell him take a break okay uh i know he's excited i i i i uh i really try to uh
protect him as much as i can uh but yeah no it's all good like i mean uh sometimes he's taking
i mean we all like building in the open is exhausting because you get a lot of people that just want token price to go up that don't really have a long-term view or that
got wrecked.
Like there are many reasons for why everybody wants to make money and
everything is always too long.
And like,
so it's of course a lot of negativity we constantly receive sometime in the
public chat,
sometime by the end. And so it's definitely a bit of an energy drain and a motivational constraint.
But that's part of the game. We have no choice anyway but to build in the open,
given the history and all that. It would have been much, much more easy to just do
like all those very well-funded projects do they just
respond build in the dark for two years then come up with a product that is a polished and ready to
go and uh and here you are uh with zero uh community zero uh complaints to manage it it
makes the builder's life easier but that's also what sets us apart that's also what is very cool about what we are doing like yes it's painful sometimes but but
we have that because we have a community with a lot of people who care who follow what we are doing
who believe in the vision in the mission we are trying to to put forward and that's also super
cool like the same thing that sometimes train your your energy also will give you a lot.
And yeah, I think it's just a matter of keep pushing
and eventually this is going to work.
And I think CCL is already going to start to provide people
with a very cool tool to certainly be able to do something
very interesting on Ruggiera, which is at the end,
you are here, like most of those people are here because they want to make money.
We are going to provide you tools that allow you to do that, and not with your Ruggie or your rune, like with actual BTC and stable,
with whatever you want, you can use your Ruggie or your rune, but really the point is not to do that.
The best thing would be to grow, and then to grow liquidity, TVL in I i am strategy that will be the biggest driver for the
new and everybody can contribute put like buy some bitcoin buy some usdc buy it or whatever you want
put them at work the more we grow that the more we can capture a share of this flow we have the
the the chance to get still some very decent flow from tor chain via the virtualization strategy
we just need to build the liquidity to be the counterparty of that. And the more we build it,
the more we increase the revenue and the more the likelihood of a rosy price to go up and everybody
to be happy. So yeah, everybody has its part to play and we just keep pushing and I think we are
very close to something very good.
In your defense, we're in the depths of a bear market and if you were fully done everything,
everything's live, then everyone would be like, why is no one using it? We got to get
users and get volume, this kind of stuff. If there's any saving grace that it's just kind of in a bear market it's kind of like no matter what you do everything is down right and um so you know if anything you can be
forgiven that you know taking the time to do it right um because that's what i'm worried about
too just just with door chain like you know do some i start doing paid advertising like
it's everyone's tapped out right everyone's got their head in the sand no no you
know it's um it's gonna take a lot of much more effort to get people to act and move and do
something so um i think the best we can ask for is that you guys do things properly and it just
so happens to be done just in time for the next bull market. That'd be like, it's probably the best one, right?
If we miss the last one, we are indeed in a beer market, which feel like it now.
And if it's going to be another long cycle, like I'm fairly confident that by the time
we have the next bull, we will have a...
I don't believe we're in this.
We're not in this for another four years.
No way. It doesn't feel we're in this. We're not in this for another four years. No way.
It doesn't feel this way as well.
Like, I mean, who knows?
But yeah, I still feel like we haven't had this big leg
of monetary expansion that we usually have every four years
or so whenever governments of the world need to refinance a large chunk of their debt.
I think there is a lot of reasons why we could still see things change.
And also another thing that we did not discuss, but that I think can be massive, is really the coming of chain of tokenized financial assets,
tokenized equity and tokenized commodity.
And I think that could be big as well, because suddenly we can open up our markets to all asset classes virtually and with whatever the people in charge force you to do.
So that also means that you lose permissionless non-KYC part of things.
But let's see how it plays out. dream would be that this is just a job of the ondo or whoever of this world to issue assets on chain
and have the correct records for i don't know for ramping that and then once it's on chain you can
trade it permissionlessly that would be the dream but yeah i'm not sure regulators like there is so
much financial lobbying and the reason for a lot of people not to let that happen.
That probably we want it this way.
But if we do, that would be beautiful.
If we don't, then we'll have to see if we can still offer access to that on our chain.
Some maybe extragating.
I hate that, but maybe that will be the way.
hate that but uh maybe that will be the way but in any case having this type of other assets that
just crypto to to trade with defy tools i think also has a lot of value and uh especially if you
think again back to agent coming on chain and now those agents they will much prefer having like a
smart contract they can interact with via cli uh to try to connect to uh whatever uh
centralized platform uh and uh this uh might be also another like a big leg of growth like
as traditional finance move into defy rails or into blockchain rails uh this can be also big legs of growth for
for the industry and then uh the tiny for all boats and uh so dominant crypto assets at least
should also benefit from that bitcoin and ether at least uh at the bare minimum for sure and then uh
as a touch chain and jira directly because uh we benefit from the flow of trading of these assets.
We have this liquidity in those pools.
The more the price goes up, the more liquidity there is, the more fees we can facilitate in dollar terms,
and the more it increases the fundamental value.
So there is also, I think, an interesting thing happening on that front too.
Let's see how it develops.
Well, I'm sharing something
right now this is from hans he just posted then 3.17 and ccl is all that's left to unlock the 3
million monthly arbitrage opportunity for ccl traders and stakers and bonders all very exciting
and then the better arbitrage the pools are the more quotes that thor chain and then the next
message the more quotes that thor chain wins the more volume it does and the more arbitrage opportunity there is.
And I'll add my own thing.
If we do ADR24, we have pools getting deepened by depositing liquidity in the pools.
This is even more arbitrage opportunity.
I'm very excited for the future, you guys.
I think we're on the right path here.
It's very cool.
Absolutely.
I love seeing these tweets from us now.
That's a very nice way to close.
And that's exactly the flywheel like we increase volumes we can improve speeds and
quotes of the base layer which in turn create more flows which in turn create
more revenue and I mean I have in mind like at some point like first let's
build a decent stream of revenue on uh on rogera
but i also uh i've been thinking about uh tokenomics 2.0 for for roger i think uh doing something
similar to the r24 with a big part especially initially a big part like maybe 50 of revenue or
so itself we will forget about the stacking option effectively. We are thinking of having two stacking options, one with a RUJI single sided and one with
RUJI rune.
Actually, RUJI rune, I don't think it has much value.
It creates a reflexivity again between the two ecosystems and that's not really desirable.
What is desirable is to cross the TVL as much as we can.
So in terms of that, maybe we redirect 50 percent revenue to do protocol on liquidity and we create this flag wheel where we grow the more we grow the
tvl the more we can create more revenue and uh you keep uh you keep doing that rinse and repeats
uh there's some very um good things i think we can do with that and uh by the way i'm so very happy uh if uh idr24 works
because i think for top chain as well it's um that's that's why like i'm not you know people
are originally talking about you know two percent in pol you know so i'm like no guys like let's get
this up those are you know no yeah i want to beat them i want more you know, it's really 20%.
Let's go.
Real numbers.
It's really like that's one marshmallow today, two marshmallow tomorrow kind of things.
You know, the more you delay instant gratification and revenue today, but you increase materially
your future revenue.
And the more you do that the more it compounds
and the bigger the impact so you should do that as long as you can and before you decide to turn
your business into a cash cow effectively and extract most of the value out of the ecosystem
the more most valuable assets we have is the liquidity we own on whether it's uh based in your pools or whether
it's uplier liquidity that's literally uh the revenue is a direct function of the tvl in your
pools uh you should grow that this is your comedy this is your raw material as a defy protocol or
as any actually a financial institution inspirational work and then the more you can as long as you can
compound that faster than your cost of capital which in our case is effectively zero um you
you should compound as much as you can unless you think you are gonna die tomorrow and then yeah take it all out and uh and go to las vegas and uh a crazy party but otherwise you you should look to to reinvest as much as you
can as long as keep growing uh compounding and growing your future your future cash flow it's
a for me it's a no-brainer so it's very short-sighted to try to uh to it is a no-brainer it's and it's
surprising to me that i've had the same conversation 100 times i mean it's so obvious to me it's obvious
to you guys as well.
I wish someone came up here and just give me their perspective, but it's a no brainer.
This is the time to do this really to get this compound effect going.
Actually, the peer market is great for that as well.
It's really good for that.
More of those BTC and Ease, especially the big ones that BTC sold as well now that it's collected like the assets like i would do also
some uh uh gods from uh what's uh from a theater uh anxiety uh like all those stuff that are
not necessarily uh stable coins as well like just grow grows your watches grow what's gonna
facilitate more volumes mechanically
because markets are like a notion with waves that uh allow you to make money when you serve them
this is the thing like the bitcoin pool is like i don't know 25 million i think the eth pool is
around 10 or 12 or something and then stablecoin pools are all like a few hundred grand and and
i'm sorry guys i don't do the math.
I haven't played with this.
I don't know, but maybe you know, pragmatic.
Like having the Bitcoin pool at $25 million and a stablecoin pool at $200,000 is a huge imbalance.
Like wouldn't the trades be more efficient if both pools were the same size?
if both pools were the same size?
Just because we have $25 million in Bitcoin pool,
we're now limited by that $200,000 stablecoin pool.
This is our limiting factor.
And it just basically effectively reduces
that $25 million pool down to $200,000.
For two-length swaps, absolutely.
Your lowest liquidity pool is a common denominator for your swap size.
Yeah. So this is why...
But that doesn't mean having those two pools at the same size will increase necessarily revenue.
Fair.
Actually, it depends.
Increases speed, generally speaking.
Well, it will increase speed.
So you could facilitate bigger legs from USPTC, for example.
But then so because on the base, they are pooled.
Everything is priced with a rune which is a crypto token so the
price of rune will be correlated fairly highly with Bitcoin and ETH and all that
and so that actually would not maximize what you want like you probably would be making more money from your stable pool
to ruin just because the volatility will be higher so you just mechanically churn more volumes but
that's so at the end what you want is probably two assets that you want to hold for the long term
that are not correlated so there is a pull together.
So there is a lot of volatility and that's what maximize volumes.
So I think I think bigger run stablecoin pool will also be good for revenue.
I love it. Yeah.
Yeah. And I'm I'm pretty hot on trying to get like 50 new pools like please do you get more i'm trying
like i have people i have people like i know people close to us like work with us they want
uh gold xiety we want to create imagine a ptc gold pair on the player player in CCN. It's super cool.
This is frustrating because
when I bring this
up, some people are like, oh, but
those pools, there's going to be no volume.
Nobody does it.
You got to look at the second and third
and fourth order effects.
If we have these pools, we can start
tapping into those communities.
And fine, they might be small numbers on that particular token, but doesn't mean they don't own Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever larger cap that they can now will now trade on on ThorChain.
And so I get like every pool we have is a lot of diminishing returns.
100 percent.
It's just like Home Depot.
You know, every new like screw or hammer or whatever they add isn't going to change their business.
But and you could probably, you know, probably half the items in the store, they make like a little bit of money on it.
Right.
And they're like and the bean counters say
oh we should get rid of half these half these things then we'll be we'll make more money per
square foot and blah blah blah right it's like you don't get it the whole reason you make money
in the first place is you're a one-stop shop that you go to home depot they got everything if it's
not there you're not finding it anywhere else maybe you have to go online and search it's some
specialty right but you just know it's all there and so that's what we need with door chain is just you know
it's all here and um um so i'm i'm i'm trying guys i'm trying to push this through and um
that would be great i i for me like again i middle uh the ground type of things like I will not go into
too small assets that's not gonna do any good that's actually especially if you pay it with
rune it's gonna create just the top 100 the top 100 exactly top 100 like especially like go it
don't look like stuff that if you can get tokenized stocks on it, if you can get gold, like stuff that are
not necessarily crypto related,
I think there is a lot of demand for that as well.
Yeah.
Like a simple one is RLUSD,
Ripple dollar.
We got to get that pool going.
Like, you know, and so...
Yeah, actually, this one is good
because also then we can,
like we have a good relationship
with the Ripple guys.
They have been doing like a tremendous job.
They're going to be in Las vegas i'm going to do my
best if you're an xrp maxi this would be the only place in on a dex to swap xrp for our for rl usd
right and then we can offer a usdc uh xlp uh cause rate liquidity pool of the app player yeah you can have like stable coin uh returns uh
on your favorite uh yeah uh yeah and your favorite local uh people are curious i say 50 new like the
top 100 you know 50 pools i'm talking about on chains we already have so like on ethereum solana
So like on Ethereum, Solana, and basically just look at like the top 100 by market cap,
top 100 by volume.
When you cross reference those two lists, you get 30 tokens right off the bat.
Boom.
Those should be no, you have to think.
Those are no brainer.
Yeah, absolutely.
Anything in the top 100 we can do, it works.
And also, there is also, I think, a minimum size you want to have.
Because that's also the other thing.
Below a certain size, it will not be interesting for arbitrage to make the arbitrage.
Because I'm pretty sure that the min is like 50 to 100 grand.
50 to 100 grand and i've only run the numbers once you guys so but basically um if anyone's
And I've only run the numbers once, you guys.
curious so you can use ai to to come up with sql queries queries on dune it's pretty simple
if you guys want to go play with it do some vibe coding um you heard how dumb i was earlier if i
can do this you guys can do it um. So I just ran some numbers on the
pools like the last 90 days, whatever. And the link and trust wallet pool, TWT, kind of stood
out to me. Not because you're like making a ton of money, but they're small and on like a percentage basis are keeping pace with the bitcoin pool and like rate like right around the
same like the the link and trust wallet pools on like on a percentage basis are just as valuable
to us as the bitcoin pool and you guys know what are these tokens who cares about them, whatever. It's a small pool. No, it's super important.
Yeah.
That's what's... So in the analytics, I have a design that we're like for a short period
and then we had to redesign certain stuff and it will come back. But one of the key metrics
I was tracking is what I call liquidity utilization ratio. That's how much of every 24 hour or
whatever period you churn the TVL, the pool. And that's really what of every 24 hour whatever period you churn the tvl the pool and that's
really what you want to maximize there are other i mean especially in our case it's not a pure
the revenue is not a direct pure function of volumes because you also have the arbitrage
profits that are being captured but uh overall that's really what you want to uh uh what you
want to maximize it's it's you have tvl and then how efficiently this TVL is being used.
And the more efficiently it's being used, the more money you make per unit of TVL, the more you are using properly your raw material, which is the liquidity in your puts.
Yes. This is why I want to create a liquidity pendulum for our POL.
So Richie just came, his mic i don't think
it's working um but you know for the protocols and on this this liquidity rather than just sitting
there being static let's move it around where it's treated best let's be efficient with it and um
And the pushback is because all this POL we own is in pools with synth leverage.
And if we withdraw, then we lock in losses for the LPs, right?
And so I can appreciate that.
But, you know, if we're only talking a few percent, it's not like the end of the world, right?
And like we can, that few percent pulling out of some of these big pools could make a big difference on some of these, you know, seeding these other pools, you know, 30, 50 new pools.
And, you know, that could help kind of kickstart things, get us to some new volume some new communities all these new features pairs
on on app layer um it just it gives us more ways to win doesn't guarantee us but at least we're
trying we're doing something we're like you know it's just um tweaking things we're just sitting
on our hands and just waiting is not, that's not a viable strategy.
And this isn't doing something for the sake of doing something.
It makes sense to add these pools.
There's nothing...
Absolutely.
Yeah, I don't see what the downside could be.
I mean, the worst that happens...
I think the only issue here is at the end is there is limited liquidity.
So if you just reshuffle around liquidity, existing liquidity, you can get for sure some
improvements by allocating more to the pools that have the highest utilization ratio.
But net in, you want the pool to actually grow.
And currently they are not growing because there is not even any fees compounding inside them anymore. But net in, you want the pool to actually grow.
And currently they are not growing because there is not even any fees compounding inside them anymore.
So that's why I saw ADR24 is very important in my view.
But the part on SANS, I mean, this is like, we're most likely to be more of a lawyer to tell us what to do here. But yeah, I mean, this is a real problem.
I understand why there is pushback around that,
because if you realize the loss,
if you force SANS LPs to realize their losses,
maybe there are some implications that could be negative.
Well, at the end, it would be a decision of another operator i guess but uh there are still
people close to the protocol that will implement this change that could could be at risk maybe
so i don't know like but it's a i guess it's a i see uh coke made some comments here give me
see a second um by the way 13 million is supposed to be bitcoin pool 5 million eth too and then he goes on to say
boomer alert i'm gonna i'm gonna come back at you hot here coke um if you're pulling those numbers
off of doorchain.net you get a times it by two and i've actually been meaning to ask who you
written why he's doing that but that's only divide by two no times two yeah
because they only show the he's not yeah he's not he's only showing the coin side of the pool he's
not showing the rune side right okay times those numbers by two and then um the stable coin pools i
was thinking of a right tether and usdc on eth i think are decent right but the stable coin pools
some of the other more esoteric stable coins are really small and those pools are from a
percentage basis are our most profitable they're killing it for us the pool there's three stablecoin pools that make way more, like four times more money than the BTC and ETH pools.
So that's where our liquidity should go.
The capital should go there where we're making more money.
So that's what I was referring to, Coke.
I think the boomer alert was the mic problems.
Hey, guys.
Hey, can you hear me?
Okay, hey, look, I've just got something really quick to say.
While you guys are out there fighting crypto and talking about a bear market,
we've got something really cool.
Next week, we're going to be posting Pragmatic Monkey's Founders Spotlight
interview. It's going to be live on the blog. I had an insane conversation with this guy.
He couldn't have said concentrated liquidity pools enough in this whole podcast. And we're
going to dive into that more. It's something he's super bullish on. Pragmatic Monkey, that was
absolutely fantastic to do that interview with you guys.'m not going to disturb you i just wanted to get that out there because it will be
live on the blog and everybody likes those founders spotlight interviews thank you pragmatic
monkey take care guys see you in the next one guys yeah bye bye see you that's not talking about
that's how you make an entrance yeah oh yeah i love his energy
that richie's awesome we love that richie could you imagine his energy if he got on
it worked the first time he got on that's after being
i'm glad he came thanks Thanks for coming, Richie.
Guys, listening, we want people to come up.
Just because we're not doing spaces anymore doesn't mean we don't want people coming up.
So hopefully that link is getting around.
And you don't have to show your screen.
We'd like you to, but we understand
if you don't want to show your face,
you can have the camera off.
You can just talk.
So please don't be shy.
Please feel free to come up, you guys.
Yes, I agree with that 100%.
I know we're coming at the two-hour mark.
It's been an awesome conversation.
Great job, Pragmatic Monkey.
Thank you for handling the hard question.
Well, I think it's a hard question.
Maybe it's easy for you, but I'm not smart.
But I do have something, though.
I know this is happening, but I really want to hammer the sounds.
I think this is super powerful what's happened on ThorChain.
This Hugin thing, man, this Hugin thing is incredible.
I mean, the amount of code that we're shipping now with the AI-assisted Hugin.
I know there was talk about the app layer getting involved in this.
Dude, I think we should go maximum with these tokens.
I don't care how much money it costs.
The compounding effects of shipping maximum code having Hugin.
I think the money we spend today it's
going to have incredible profound but um is hans getting involved i hope this is helping hans so
so we are um uh playing with it but uh aunts and the well start with as well and uh uh if you're
all like most of our uh devs like they actually are not a big fan they
find more of a distraction it looks amazing from the outside but when you are like a proper like
a developer who really knows what he's doing and you see the type of uh feedback it passes
sometimes it has valid points but a lot lot of time it's just like completely
missing context and hallucinating. And I think it works also, like the base here in probably a better
spot for that because it's more mature, it's more like established codes. You're building still.
So far, it has been more of a distraction than
anything but but we are we are playing with it right now uh and uh it's i think it's only gonna
get better so it's a like you guys you guys are inventing like new things right whereas yes like
ai can go and that's true say build a website because there's thousands of websites that can go scan and crawl and copy and paste. Whereas
app layer is brand new, there's nothing to copy and paste, you're
taking what's going on in here and making it a reality for the
first time.
Absolutely. And there is even less to look at if you code in
Rust and use Cosmoasm than if you do with Solidity. And that's
what happened initially, like we are pressured a lot by GP to expand the team like if it was going to
magically make things accelerate or actually what's all what he did was lower the path because we are
being distracted all the time by having to handle other people codes which take more time usually
than actually especially for Hans doing his own and uh what most
of those people were doing is effectively using ai to generate stuff and you end up with crappy
like replicate of uh the uh consulate liquidity implementation implementation of uniswap uh but
in rust for for uh for us for custom smart. But it's absolutely useless.
It's not, it has zero context of what is a feed,
what is a base layer, how the other book works,
how the feed is pieced together.
Like it's like a standalone piece of code
that works on itself,
but it's just a replica of something
that already exists on Ethereum and poorly built.
It just, you cannot cannot if you limit like
you can't innovate with it you can't really like it's right it's great for my what i'm doing now
like uh doing building my little back tester for someone like me it's amazing but because there are
tons of back testing tool available i can do tests to verify it's it's just building something on top
of something we have built already but for
original thinking exactly as you are thinking that you cannot uh it can't make up for human
creativity at least not yet yeah do you want to go okay well i was going to say and you know when
rogera gets going or swap volume we have data to choose from then maybe at that point hugan or
something like that can get can then parse data and figure out maybe where
there's some optimizations we made but yeah you know I didn't realize I didn't
think you guys are actively building so there's nothing it can't help you with
that there's just no way there is God like a committee done to review so it
can still like review stuff and do quality of life type of assessments.
But so far, the ratio of good to bad is not worth it yet.
But it will eventually.
So once we have more time to just focus on the nitty gritty to.
This is, for me, one of the reasons I had let Reggie go when I'm finding out, this is why I'm behind on some things. He was just using AI for everything. And it's just and then the things he told me that were done or that oh this is all he could find
or do then i go back look and do it myself actually it can be done and i can find it and
whatever and all he was doing i'm sure he's asking ai and um and so what what i found from like a
creative point of view so like like for example like writing creating the new thorntian website
you can have all the copy then upload that to ai help me find my grammar mistakes you know clean this up clean
that up whatever right um but to create it first and then go correct it ends up being a lot more
work and then um same with like we're talking about these articles we want to do every week
we got the lemur Labs guys doing them.
That was one of the problems before is that I kept getting these articles that I had, you know, I was reviewing them to make sure they're accurate, correct, whatever. And I'm like,
God, I'm spending hours like fixing this. And I'm like, this is not, who's writing these?
And obviously then dawned on me. It's AI. That's why it's so like, it's kind of half right, kind of not.
And like, I'm like, this is wrong.
This is just messed up.
And so the Richie and the Lemur Labs guys are great.
Their contents, I think it's great.
I hope you guys like it, but they understand Thor chain.
They know how to make it make sense
and kind of try and dumb it down.
And so one, you can tell generally, right?
You know, still tell if something's written by AI or a human.
But also, there's already backlash.
There's already websites and publications and whatever
who have AI checkers,
and they do not want content that's AI generated.
They're like purposely scanning for it and
blocking it and it may even somehow penalize you so you know if anyone's out there wondering like
kenton you know why you know working on you know these what article a week and all this content
just use ai just create it all and like no there's already they're already putting in places to stop that. You know, it still has to be human,
the majority human created.
And so, yeah, we can only use AI as a tool to help.
It can't replace the human.
It can augment the human, but it can't replace us.
Absolutely, yeah.
It cannot have original thinking.
Like, it can only write about Torchain,
what he has collected about Torchain.
And yeah, it's just going to be always the same platitudes, repeat.
There are a few accounts actually do that already.
It's so obvious.
You feel like the person that published that really don't care or don't understand.
I don't know, but it's yeah you
can really see it in a lot of posts it's yes the quality is not there yeah you can't like if you
want to do an interesting piece of thoughts you have to put your brain into it and based on the
context and the data could come up with some single original and no i can do that it's not yet i think i think kenton really like you
can't it's just it's really hard to take someone who's not like been in the weeds like us and just
make them be able to like you really got to be like richie and those boys like they have been
in the weeds for a while they understand and that's just a knowledge base that just takes years
to develop and you know it's taking me to this point just to understand ruggiero and finn and all the fucking whale names you guys use for all your defy primitives i that gave me i hate whales now
because of that i'm telling you i couldn't remember the ghost whoa and finn i'm like i hope whales go
to extinct you know i'm saying but it just takes time you know what i mean it takes time to learn
these things so uh kenton that's why i'm glad it's you now and i hope you keep doing it um to a right yeah yeah i'm actually i i'm a weirdo like i like clean i like cleaning
things so like i i i want to clean up thor chain on the internet and so um yeah it's uh you're like the bateman with his with his card his business card you know
what's the best gonna be just like professional cleaner yeah yeah canadian psycho over here
that's right um yeah i got a prostitute on all fours on my bed waiting for me right now
you're making her like, you know,
make your bed fold like perfect and stuff,
you know what I mean?
Did you guys hear about, what's his name,
Armie Hammer?
I don't know who that is.
Huge tangent.
So I live in Cayman Islands, right?
So Armie Hammer, he's an actor.
He was on a few big movies.
He was, remember the Facebook movie with Jesse, whatever his name,
and the Winklevoss twins was Armie Hammer.
Oh, okay.
Duped him.
He played the Winklevoss twins.
He was on some other movie with Henry Cavill,
Spy vs. Spy or something.
I don't know.
If you saw his face you
might recognize him anyway um but he's he grew up here and his family's came at him and so he's kind
of an infamous guy on island and um he's a real deviant and um his marriage fell apart it was kind
of like it kind of got him tabloids and stuff and because he posted this video of him
showing on instagram he posted a video like doing like a walkthrough of showing his his apartment
in cayman islands and like the the balcony and everything walk through the hallway walking
through the house all that kind of stuff as he walks to the bedroom there's this girl in lingerie on all fours like on on the bed in the in doggy position on
all fours and he just walks past her just keeps showing the tour like it's just like
she's part of the scenery right everyone's like what the hell she gets paid to stay there and
and so you couldn't see her face but everyone knew she's like some local came in it's just
like miss came in from a few years ago or something.
Everyone could tell it was her.
And this Cayman guy is, I don't know, he's begging to get caught or whatever.
But then his wife divorced him shortly after that.
But it turns out he's like a real, like he wants to control women and like have like American cycle, like just have them do weird,
crazy stuff to exert his control over them.
Yeah,
it's crazy.
Anyway,
sorry,
weird,
crazy tangent for you guys there.
I'm not doing that by the way. I'm joking.
Take your camera and swivel it. Take your camera and swivel it take your camera and swivel it i need to see what's going on
what gets me off what gets me off is a good vacuum
getting the thor chain spelling right gosh i've been so on uh check out gem wallet check out
their website i was just in
touch with them i'm like guys you gotta fix the thor chain spelling it's all over the website
spelled wrong so i'm i like it clean the internet uh on the internet i love it yeah so yeah
it's important for the machines as well
well i don't see any other questions guys i think yes'll end it there. What do you say, guys?
Yeah.
Okay.
Kenton, PM, thank you so much.
This has been a great live stream.
Had a lot of fun.
Wild ending.
That's how we like to do it here.
Let's do it again.
That was good.
Always a pleasure, guys.
Yes.
Okay, guys.
So this Saturday, we're going to have Matthew Carano.
I hope I'm saying that last name correct.
I'm really sorry if I'm not.
Matthew Carano, editor of Brave, the New World, Liberty, and Technology.
I'm really excited to talk to him.
Kenton, good job scooping that one up.
And then next Thursday.
Oh, that wasn't me.
Was that Richie and the Boys?
It might've been.
Yeah.
Maybe lemur.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shout out to them.
That will.
I had a space with them and then I think they reached out from the Thor chain
account.
That's what it was.
So good job guys following up and getting them.
Excellent job guys.
Just a reminder,
guys,
if you want to see the TLDRs on this,
please follow Ray analytics on X.
He does these recaps.
He's also helped Kenton with the analytics
and with Masari and stuff.
So that guy's a great friend of ours.
Please give him support.
Please follow him on X.
Really appreciate it.
Guys, if you want to become a node operator
and need some help, reach out to at Runtard on X.
He will help you get set up and find bomb fighters.
You can also reach out.
I'll help you as well as best as I can.
Okay, guys?
But please reach out to Re tard and always remember guys
The views expressed are solely those of the hosts and guests any action taken based on this is your own risk
Past performance is not indicative of future results and with that being said
I hope you guys have a good rain of the week. We will see you Saturday
See y'all then guys. Bye. Bye. Take care
Bye guys
