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Runes Asia 2025 PreHeat: 10x BTCFi Growth
Recorded: Aug. 14, 2025 Duration: 1:12:24Space Recording
Short Summary
The RunesAsia 3.5 Pre-Hat X session unveiled exciting developments in Bitcoin DeFi, with industry leaders discussing growth potential, innovative projects, and the importance of user experience in driving adoption. Key insights included the potential for Bitcoin to surpass Ethereum in DeFi, the launch of new lending protocols, and strategies for enhancing liquidity across ecosystems.
Full Transcription
Thank you. GM.
GM, GM.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I just wanted to make sure my mic was working.
Cool. That's echo, right? Yeah, I just wanted to make sure my mic was working.
Cool.
That's echo, right?
Okay, got it fixed now.
So let's just wait a bit before we get all the speakers up. Thank you. Thank you. GM Jam guys, I think we almost got everyone here.
So glad to have you guys here.
So we just gonna wait a bit.
I think we have Louis coming to join us. I'm not sure whether Bob is able to because it's kind of busy.
Having that resident is very very devastating but yeah they are doing great in terms of getting the clarity and then to communicate back to the community.
So we also pray hard for them. Thank you.ご視聴ありがとうございました All right, so I think let me just start the session.
So welcome everyone to RunesAsia 3.5 Pre-Hat X session so today our main topic is about 10x our BGC 5
group so I'm so glad to have so we have stand here I guess his ad back with sex
terminal account and then we have cow right and then representing definity is the director of data
and analytics and then we have j as well co-founder liquidium representing the foundation
and then we have uh who's in here are representing rich swap i'm I'm not sure if you want to help on that as well.
And then we have Clueless heading behind Kairos as well.
So I think there's a bit of glitch here and there
where a speaker will drop to listener.
So it's fine.
That's the usual thing.
Then while we wait for Luis Luis maybe you can go around then to have a
simple introduction about each and everyone so let's just start with Kyle
I appreciate that excited to be on the, excited to see a lot of you guys in Asia and just we're
less than two weeks away, 12 days.
And yeah, so Kyle Langham, I work for the DFINITY Foundation, which is the foundation
behind the Internet Computer Protocol.
And specifically, I've gotten really passionate about Bitcoin Season 2 and really Bitcoin DeFi and how I believe Bitcoin can become the biggest DeFi ecosystem, even usurping Ethereum and Solana.
times if you're you're if you're in the bitcoin space in 2018 2019 you probably heard this idea
of bitcoin is the um ethereum is the test net for bitcoin and i think bitcoin defy can kind of prove
that if if we can get it up and off the ground and and gaining traction and so just excited to
be here excited to be in asia uh i'll give a quick shout out i know i don't know if any if you guys
have come across i see ray is in the um audience here. Ray is one of the nicest and most amazing people in the space.
And so I just want to give him a shout out.
He's always just sharing really good vibes and sharing blessings my way.
So really appreciate all that he brings into the Bitcoin and ICP space.
awesome awesome definitely maybe later if we have extra time we can have raise to to share a bit
Awesome. Awesome. Definitely.
as well all right so next i think we have uh let's see who's the next one maybe you can have yes sir hello hello can you all hear me i hope so yes yeah i'm jay co-founder cmo from liquidium
um yeah we are the biggest and leading um planning and borrowing protocol on bitcoin
they want for owners rooms and brc20s that's one thing we do on the wtf side um we also are into like close to release
a new product called the queen cross-chain loans and in runes asia we will talk about
lick as slick and um liquid staking open source liquid second firmware we've been developing
um yes i'm really hyped to be in the space happy to see all of the amazing
spaces here in the space and happy to kick it off and see where we're going yes
all right all right welcome jay so i think next we shall have stan from sex terminal hey guys jam jam thanks for having us
um yeah i'm stan co-founder and ceo of sads terminal sads terminal is the best place to go
and buy runs you just go to our platform and you always get the best prize. So yeah, GM everyone.
GM, GM.
So I think we got everyone here to self-introduce.
And then I think Clueless from Kairos have a bit of difficulty here.
And I think Louis isn't here as well or maybe Musen you want to hop in
as well to do to just introduce a bit about wrist drop if you don't mind of
course if it's not available of course we can always hop in the introduction
later on alright let's just start the session then while we are waiting
for Clueless to go on the speaker so I think first thanks everyone to be here so basically
this session is about introducing some speakers that will be attending Rinse Asia. So I'm very excited to have everyone here and then to just to steep a bit of something
what's going on on Rinse Asia in the coming of 27th of August in Hong Kong.
So I think this panel, we will have a lot of BDC 5 do this around and then so today
that's why our topics is revolving around BDC 5 alright so today let's just
kick start with a question to open to all so basically this is a question to
all there what excites everyone here of of the current state of bdc5
and uh what do you see the biggest potential uh of 10x growth in the next uh 12 months or so
so maybe you can uh move around with this and then let's start with uh calden
Let's start with Carl then.
Yeah, I think one thing worth pointing out is that BTC Phi is really young still.
You probably argue this is only the second year of it.
And so you're still early for the most part.
And then the second thing is the future future the potential for the future is obviously massive when you consider that bitcoin still makes up 60 percent
of the crypto industry um if if bitcoin d5 even starts to approach the levels that ethereum d5
does in terms of um like uh on-chain activity versus market cap, then that's massive.
It would be really, really massive.
And so I guess the potential really excites me.
But then also you start to see unique applications
doing things different,
having more like a Bitcoin ethos rather than,
you know, and so you're starting to see some traction there.
And then finally, and this is actually what I'll be talking about at Ruins Asia,
is one of the things that Bitcoin DeFi hasn't done,
hasn't really done a great job of, is focusing on utility, tokens with Jay here, Liquidity is one of the few Bitcoin apps that has successfully launched a utility token through RUNES.
And so it's kind of utility still kind of rare.
And I think what we have is an opportunity to combine kind of the two things that DFINITY is very passionate about you have bitcoin on one side of it and then this idea of ai writing smart contracts
and and deploying them so that pretty much five billion people in the world can start writing um
writing and deploying and maintaining their own applications with no technical skill
and i i don't think it's going to be too long before you combine those two things and
or you combine those two things
and anyone's going to be able to write,
use AI to write a,
basically make an application
that adds utility to their runes
or adds utility to perhaps like an alkane token.
And I think that's kind of like the very future
of where this is all going.
And when I say future,
I think maybe like maybe we're six months out,
maybe a year out at most.
And so really things are going to start to move fast,
in my opinion.
Got it, got it.
I think with the AI incoming, supporting all the builders
here, and then I would say a lot of innovation
will be coming into BDC5 and a lot of innovation will be coming into BD-Squire and a lot of methods of play
where we can see with DogManner as well, which is present here, they are doing some innovation
in terms of the launchpad.
And so really exciting to see more and more methods of play and then new features coming
up within the BD software space.
Alright, so let us move to Stan.
I think Stan, you guys are aggregating a lot of DeFi and so I think from your perspective
you definitely meet a lot of people and then especially on the builder side and then you
definitely have some insights I think
that will be unique
from your perspective. Do share
with us.
Yeah, well, I think
there is definitely a
potential for, let's say, season
two for runes because
a lot of... there's
a lot of new projects coming in, there's
a lot of interest and I lot of new projects coming in there's a lot of interest and um I was
recently I think yesterday reposted uh the guy from gizmo community called Ness he wrote a post
why he believes that second season for runs are coming and I kind of agree with him there is you
know quite a lot of positive sentiment around like overall the market and i think if eat and all
of the altcoins will be growing there will be more liquidity sort of allocated to riskier place right
and eventually it will come to the rune space as well so i think people that would be buying low
cap runes they have big chance but if you look at the market cap of most of the runes the biggest is dog probably like 300 million and i think meme is like 60 million 70 million so everything is
possible go buy runes at sat's terminal a big break uh better but uh i I think I got it basically to do sure the growth of the
year the whole ruins market as well as the other meta protocols so I think it's good to see the
whole market is actually growing and then yeah I think with if that I think I can pass Jay as well, because
being in Liquidium, you guys are doing
a great job in terms
of the lending
borrowing for all the nodes and also rooms.
So do share with us.
Yeah, I mean,
I just can't
underline that, what the
others said, but
why are we bullish on bitcoin
defra why are we building i mean bitcoin most pristine asset bitcoin biggest asset
and uh yeah value needs to be unlocked uh be it through ruins be through prediction markets
be through lending and borrowing be through trading be through leverage um leverage trading
be through trading, be through leverage trading.
And I guess what we're serving here in the bigger picture
is like the lending and borrowing market.
We support, as I said on the WTF side,
runes, BRC20s, ordinals, people leverage every day
or take out loans every day.
And that's just amazing to see that this is happening on Bitcoin.
On our side, it's happening on bitcoin layer one um we are using 10 fusion components um
but but it still had all of this is still happening in bitcoin layer one and to see that growth and to see that amazement and that development behind those yeah that development going on in
the ecosystem is just amazing to see and yeah like I'm beyond excited on what's
coming yet the the five stuff you're running out with cross-chain loans and
other stuff I think there's like so much untapped potential um obviously you
have to work to maintain um users to onboard new users and but i think we're all on a great spot
to do so and yeah that amazes me the most and i mean in the end everybody wants to go back into
bitcoin right so why not making it happen with happened with pure Bitcoin. So yeah, that amazes me the most and obviously it's all about the people you're working with.
So that's where we are and where I'm grateful the most to share the journey.
We are basically experiencing with different people.
Right? with different people, right?
True love, true love.
I do share the same sentiment with you guys.
I'm really glad to work together along with you guys because it's been amazing.
And then to see everyone innovate in their own perspective,
perspective. I think it's been a lot of learning curve as well. And yeah, definitely looking
I think it's been a lot of learning curve as well.
forward to see more progress and also more users to be onboarded as well. I think it's
a collective effort in terms of onboarding because we are all building.
Some are utilizing our Dfinity's tech stack.
So we are more or less on the same boat
and then trying to gain more users.
I think it's a win-win situation for all.
So then we can pass to Clueless from Kairos.
I think he will be speaking from the Kairos account gm uh is my mic clear
yep awesome so um the most exciting thing about uh btc5 for me is you know initially runes and
bitcoin l2's ignited a real on-chain economy. And we saw so much growth initially.
And now I think it's time
to create an ecosystem
where there is a mutual flow
of liquidity from Bitcoin into other chains
and other chains into Bitcoin.
And I truly believe that, you know, if we build
in this manner,
leveraging all the awesome stuff that all the speakers here in this space
and everyone listening are building and supporting, that is entirely possible.
And of course, Chainfusion, really, really cool stuff.
And the stuff we've been able to achieve because of chain fusion and the cool stuff that
we're exploring down the line, you know, in the realm of prediction markets and letting people
make their own markets and, you know, more social stuff like challenging each other, creating
cabals, all of this stuff, you know, it's happening with Bitcoin and, you know, it's
just, you're having fun with it.
So besides being a store of value, we want, I should say personally, I want Bitcoin to
be a participatory asset in your beliefs and when you make markets and when you just,
And when you just, you know, you're on Kairos and you want to have fun with your community.
you know, you're on Kairos and you want to have fun with your community.
Got it, got it. Awesome, awesome insights.
I think everyone here has been very spirited in terms of building their very own unique proposition
unique proposition and then to really market it out to the market.
and then to really market it out to the market.
So I think also the unique part of Runes Asia is that we are actually focusing
not only on just Bitcoin but also on one meta protocol which is Runes.
So I think my next question will be more about runes to get some insights from you guys.
Like, why do you guys think that runes is actually reshaping the Bitcoin D5 landscape itself?
Because from all the other Metaprocos, like BX20, then we have runes, we have Olinos, then we have Alkenes as well, OPK somehow, and then
even we heard about Goldinos.
So with all the meta protocols, how do you see runes can actually play a role within driving
more adoptions from the users since last year and then this year and then on the coming years as well.
So I think this also will be passing around for everyone to share their thoughts.
We can start with Kyle.
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I don't know if you guys have heard this saying before,
saying before, but it's been around crypto for a while or even just around software for a while,
but it's been around crypto for a while or even just around software for a while.
but go where the developers are is always a good strategy for whatever you're trying to do.
And that's because in software development, there's a lot of network effects. So if a lot
of people are building on a certain tech stack, it makes it easier for other people to come and build on that tech stack.
It also provides that social proof that that tech stack can do what you need it to do.
And so you see that with runes, but you don't see it with any other meta protocol.
I'd say Alkanes has a pretty interesting tech stack,
but it's still so early that it's very young and underdeveloped.
But only runes has the level of infrastructure that you get.
So like Omnid has built out a phenomenal infrastructure stack with re and with the hub.
You guys have done great stuff with index canisters and things like that.
That really makes the onboarding for developers really, really small.
It lowers that hurdle. And then also you just see that that's still makes the onboarding for developers really, really small. It lowers that hurdle.
And then also you just see that that's still
kind of where the mind share is, is with runes.
And so, you know, I would challenge,
I would probably challenge anyone to not only name
a meta protocol that has even near the applications
that runes has, but I would say there's,
that runes has probably 75 would say there's that runes has
probably uh 75 of all the bitcoin season two applications at this point um right like i and
i don't maybe i'm just uh so tunnel visioned and saying that but um i don't see the level of uh
developer focus on brc20s or or um or really any of the other meta protocols.
So I think that that's why I'd be super bullish on RUNES
is the infrastructure and the amount of applications
that are coming to market.
Got it, got it.
I do, I call on that as well
because other than RUNES itself,
I really do not hear more about the infra
that's ready for the builders to be building on top of it.
So I think this can actually,
we can get some insights from Stan as well,
from SES.
I think I would agree with Kyle, definitely.
There's like Runes protocol is more sort of battle tested.
There are more people building in runes than at least it looks like than in other protocols.
Maybe we don't know about army of dormant alkanes builders,
1,000 people sitting somewhere and building.
But no, on the surface level, I think runes are getting also a lot of attention
because there were a bunch of big listings especially with kraken
like pops listed yesterday um i think yeah it's just further away uh i think we should
be open to innovation in the bitcoin space uh we should help we should hope that core developers
of the runes protocol at one point would want to come back and do some changes and maybe make it a little
bit better. But aside of that, I think you have big opportunities that a lot of innovation is
coming in launches like all games. I think it's showing to everyone that there's quite a lot of
interesting ideas, new companies, builders, and they're finding their market right now.
Got it, got it. Yeah, definitely. And then we do need more exposure from the
green side where we can actually boost the exposure and also the awareness about the
boost the exposure and also the awareness about the inside of infrastructure so I think
RIS Asia itself plays an important role to actually showcase what's happening within the
RIS ecosystem all right so maybe you can have Jay as well to to share a bit about this
yeah sure I mean what I was saying we see a lot of people developing on it. We see a lot of infrastructure, see a lot of marketplaces, lending, borrowing protocols and so on.
And it's just the most excitement as they also built a lot of cool stuff.
Shout out to Hath and Bunzy.
But as the latter said, it's like just the infrastructure, which is already there and which is being built out.
build out obviously we have to see if if if ruins are the best standard to build
on as a friend now yes but obviously we like different problems which is not
infrastructure per se but it's more likely quality and so on besides that I
think it's a really great base to build in and it's also really really tied to
ordinals in general so um that's why i think um it just makes sense but uh we as the critium we're
always open in supporting new stuff or see where new stuff um is being developed um yes that's how i would say it
got it got it staying hand in hand with audios does make sense because it's actually from the
same um builders and then uh of course uh along the way we should also be noticing new meta protocols that's
coming up and then to see whether it works and then especially on the market
adoption because essentially we are protocols that are serving the community
so if the users are adopting certain meta protocols then definitely uh we we should like include it
and not excluding that as well all right so let's just have clueless then from kyrus i think
you guys are doing some great stuff um uh innovating in in terms of i think the bad
btc side where you guys are dealing with runes and then opening up for a betting market.
So do share with us, like, why runes and then how does it go?
Sure.
So we used to be at PTC and now we're at Kairos.
And it is a Bitcoin-denominated prediction market where you can make your own markets,
you can challenge other users,
you can make your own cabals,
you've got your whole social layer on top of that.
We'll be rolling all of that cool stuff out next week,
plus tons of quests coming up.
So regarding runes, as Kyle said,
you need to go where the devs are
and there's a lot of development.
And, you know, I also see that the community around rune tokens is very, very strong.
And I think the best thing that Kairos can do for these communities is to let them make markets denominated in runes.
So if you want to make a market that has to do with your dog community or MIM community or pups community, you can make it so that it's only all your options are tradable via runes.
And this adds utility and, you know, it brings the communities closer.
And if you win, you get more of the token you love. So, you know, that's how we see it. We see what we can do for the ecosystem and what we can bring.
You know, we want to bring fun to the people in the space. And, you know, when people in the other ecosystem see this, of course, they'd want to participate because, you know, it's cool, it's fun.
this, of course, they'd want to participate because, you know, it's cool. It's fun. And
everyone's like interconnected and having fun. And I think that's what I believe. Of course,
our CTO, Edward, is the brain behind it and huge respect to him because he never says no
to any problem we bring up. He just says, give me time and I'll figure it out.
He just says, give me time and I'll figure it out.
So yeah, that's my take.
And although it isn't as technical,
it is a bit foundational, I believe.
So yeah, really looking forward to innovating.
Got it, got it.
No worries, no worries on the technicalities,
because I think we all have very competent builders here. So definitely, we were able to digest it. No worries on the technicalities because I think we all have very competent builders here.
So definitely we were able to digest it.
And then of course myself will also do some summary after the space as well.
So do share whatever you got here and then just give the most value to the audience here.
Because this is one of the pre-hit
session that Omniti is gonna do and so today so just a bit of highlight about
about the topic today so we talked about the easy5 growth for today and then um it's all uh the speakers from runes asia so
whoever uh will be coming to hong kong for bitcoin asia do drop by runs asia all right so
let's us hop into the next uh questions then um i think it's been quite interesting uh so we
we touched runes and then I think everyone here has been
building something and then from Kyle being within the divinity and then being
very involved in the Bitcoin ecosystem right so I see you are dealing with
different BTC 5 day to day and then would you would love to hear your oops i think kyle dropped to uh listener no worries
uh we can rotate around so basically i think it's open to all where um what kind of top challenges
that you guys are facing uh today as of um the growth part is there any like blockage in terms
of the growth and where you think is a challenge but I
think eventually that and definitely it will be solved but it needs time to actually build
the route so I think we can pass around to hear the insights from you guys so I'm, are you there? Do you need some time to adjust a bit?
Or we can have Jay first.
Sure, can you hear me?
Yep, I can hear you.
I would say challenges is definitely liquidity.
It's like we need to have liquidity lined up.
Obviously, without liquidity, there's no trading,
there's no borrowing and lending.
So I would say this is the biggest as of right now.
And then obviously, it's the fragmentation of the different ecosystems.
So we got Balkans, we got Runes, we got Ornus,
which are more similar. But it's like yes there are different
ecosystems right um there are different people advocating for different solutions and standards
and i think um this either needs to be connected or like liquidity and so on needs to be funnered
somewhere um on that side said terminal dropped sadly but
they're doing a great job of like um how you say um accelerate not accelerating but you know what
i mean like funding all of the marketplaces and so on but this is just for ruins right and i guess
um yeah we need to work on that to bring together the liquidity at first
and then also second
think about different solutions
so yesterday I attended a space
and we were talking about the minting process
for runes and with
all of the
like how
launchpad works
before
it's like you spam a lot of bitcoin to the mempool and hope you get
the runes afterwards and in the beginnings you didn't get any runes because your transactions
didn't go through in time etc which means we burned a lot of btc gave that to the miners and that
bitcoin basically left the ecosystem so i'm also really bullish on on launch pads and products
which basically
have different minting solutions that your bitcoin doesn't get burned right and goes to the miners
so so those are a few challenges we have um and then it's obviously also onboarding people um
from other ecosystems right and onboarding works the best if the ecosystem is hot
right and onboarding works the best if the ecosystem is hot onboarding is harder if um
yeah if if hype died down a bit um but i think this this comes in waves right so liquidity
in my opinion is the biggest challenge obviously we you got like technical challenges with building on bitcoin but here i think we are really well prepared um
beat the affinity the channel fusion from the affinity be it um other solutions other l2s or
other l1.5 um so yeah on the tech side i don't see big problems in terms of that there is no infrastructure.
But obviously, you always have to see those different pillars.
So, yeah, that's how I would frame it.
Got it, got it.
I think I do echo about your views as well,
because fragmented liquidity is definitely one issue there.
And then I think for that part, I think even RitSwap is also facing the same challenges
as well.
I think the whole BTC5 is facing the similar challenge where it's very fragmented where
when there's new meta protocols, then the liquidity will be diluted even further.
Because you will have all the LPs hopping around to try on new meta
protocols and then it will be all silos and then couldn't really have a like a share pool
so in short it's like it's hard to actually pull everyone together and I think back to
this topic where pulling together pulling people together I think back to this topic, we're pulling people together.
I think Chainfusion definitely plays a big role on that.
So maybe Kyle can share a bit of this challenge.
And so whether or not Chainfusion has any kind of solutions on that.
Yeah, thanks. And thanks for patience.
I rubbed myself earlier couldn't can't even blame
twitter it was just all user error um and uh i'm ashamed to to admit that uh but it yeah no um i
think so liquidity fragmentation has always been a problem within our industry uh i mean the fact
that we have like 10 000 layer one blockchains and, you know, they all have different standards and everything like that.
That's kind of like an issue that we've always experienced as an industry.
And and honestly, that's kind of opened the door for what you see, like these treasury companies and, you know, the ETFs and all basically like Wall Street's kind of their takeover, I would call it,
or maybe adoption would be a kinder word because Wall Street has done very good at consolidating
liquidity. And so one of the things that ICP is really good at is signing transactions on other
blockchains, doing a full secure integration so that you can sign and read
from other blockchains. And so you see like some really cool uses of it. I know Bob has mentioned
in the past that Odin plans to onboard Solana users onto Odin by, like, an input, an input currency into the platform, giving them a chance to
kind of more or less like use what they're used to, but, but, but trade in Bitcoin.
So, you know, you can imagine like an easy swap from sold to Bitcoin in the background
and the user, the user is, has a really good, nice user journey.
What Liquidium is doing, I think is a very good approach in terms of their cross-chain
lending and borrowing. So that obviously allows liquidity to kind of flow between chains.
And I think really what we have to get to, and you're starting to see the building blocks be
put in place, is you have to get to where users don't even really have to worry about what chain they're
using. So like in their, you know, they have cross chain wallets, their applications at the
application level is where the complexity of liquidity is handled. So like when you're using
Bitcoin on an Ethereum app, you don't even have to worry about conducting the swap yourself,
that kind of stuff. And so I think once we get to where, just like when you go to a website,
you don't care whether it's Google Cloud or Amazon Web Services or whatever, we should get to a
point where users don't really have to worry about whether the application supports blockchain A or
blockchain B, but rather they get to just use the application for what it is. And then the
application handles the complexity under the hood for them.
Got it, got it.
So basically, it's like simplify the onboarding.
Because I think from the front-end part, from the user's point of view,
as long as it is very easy to use and then very easy to sign up.
So the whole user experience will be simplified
and then people will have less blockage in terms of wanting to try or use the product itself.
And I think wallet plays a big role, especially Bitcoin wallets
and also some cross-chain block wallets as well.
So definitely we wanted to see more innovation from the wallet side as well.
So I think for that also we have Louis joining us.
So Louis is founder of Omniti so basically we are we are talking about the top
challenges of BCC5 today because everyone here has been building so
definitely we will face some challenges and then Jay has shared a fragmented
liquidity where I think everyone here faced similar challenges. And yeah, Khao has been sharing his thoughts as well.
So maybe we can have Luis to self-introduce
and then share a bit on the view of the challenges part.
Hi, thank you, Tim.
Sorry for being late.
I got the time wrong.
I'm Luis, founder and the CEO of Omiti.
Omiti is a decentralized infrastructure
particle family built on ICP-tune fusion
to improve Bitcoin interability and programmability.
Yeah, I totally agree that currently Bitcoin DeFi Builder face a lot of roadblocks and especially I think the liquidity problem is majorly about liquidity fragmentation.
First of all, we have too many meta protocol,
especially meta protocol about fundable tokens.
People know that fundable token
always play the center role of DeFi,
but Bitcoin
does not have its ERC-20 yet. And from the very beginning, community,
let's say, try to stick with one most promising mana protocol, Runes.
And we think Runes is good enough, not perfect, but good enough.
And for big Bitcoin DeFi,
and we always try to call out a convenience
Bitcoin builder that we need to convert
token standard and build application around it.
So basically it's essential,
Today, it's essential.
Essentially, it's a base for sharing liquidity between different applications.
So, unfortunately, the new MITA protocol still, let's say, emerging and each bring a wave of, let's say, speculation, investment,
and make the fragmentation seems even worse. But we think that, for now, the new meta protocol always try to emphasize on programmability
because there are already many token standards on Bitcoin. and their own bitcoin but the next stage would be how to build application around
these token standard around this asset class but and programmability apparently would be the major
major bottleneck so each new metabolic come up with its own execution environment
but i don't know if people
people have noticed that each,
have noticed that
let's say, each,
this new type of multi-particle,
we call them indexer extension solution,
which means invade virtual machine inside an indexer.
So the indexer could be the sediment layer for the for the for the token for the token but uh it's rarely let's say uh an an anti pattern or anti, let's say, but from our perspective, Bitcoin should be the ultimate sediment layer
for all Bitcoin assets, not indexers. Essentially, all the indexers are centralized server and they cannot provide Bitcoin level security.
And to Bitcoin asset should be issued
and ultimately settled on Bitcoin.
So that is why we don't, let's say,
That is why we don't, let's say, put our resource in indexer extension type of solution.
And we did all the, let's say, programmability and interoperability infrastructure around
open particle like ruins and ordinance. These are
native Bitcoin assets and we provide infrastructure to enable application which can settle the
which can settle the outcome,
the transaction outcome directly on Bitcoin layer one.
That is what we think is the,
let's say,
end game for a Bitcoin DeFi infrastructure.
Back to you Kim.
Got it Louis.
I think this has been very fundamental for all the Bitcoin DeFi here.
Because basically back to the mother chain itself
and then having Bitcoin as the ultimate settlement layer
is definitely the fundamental of the Bitcoin DeFi and that's the thesis that's been holding by
being hold by Omni-TAD by several different protocols as well so
definitely would love to hear from Clueless Kairos about this like in terms
of challenges like what kind of challenges do you guys face when is it in terms of the diversification of the products or on the onboarding part?
Do you share with us?
Thank you, Kim.
So initially, we wanted the experience on our platform as we were focusing on the BTC and ICP ecosystems.
In our first phase, we wanted the onboarding to feel like it's a Bitcoin app.
So connect your Bitcoin wallet or use internet identity.
There shouldn't be any confusion as to what is on here because the features ought to speak for themselves.
And regarding the BTC5 challenges, I think Kyle and Louis are way smarter than me to answer that
question. And I am pretty sure that building something like Kairos in an ecosystem,
which has Kyle and Louis, it should be you know, we're in good hands. So
for us, liquidity has been an issue, of course. And where we want to get to is, you know, the
idea of a Bitcoin denominated prediction market should be simple to understand. Plus, we want to be able to let people send whatever currency they want onto Kairos and abstract away all the swapping, all the bridging, anything that would make them think like, oh, there's too many steps for me to do to participate.
And besides that, we are looking to revamp our prediction market setup.
So a proper prediction market AMM with a liquidity pool, which is basically a meta-LP, which intelligently routes capital or liquidity into markets with higher volume.
out capital or liquidity into markets with higher volume.
And to protect these LPs, we would need the LVR mechanics, loss value rebalancing mechanics.
Again, I am very confident that the more we create a space on Kairos for people to put
their assets to work and to do stuff and to have fun on top of that with all the social stuff,
the more this space will keep growing and people will keep coming here.
So, yeah, that's my take, Kim. Thank you for giving me the chance to share.
Yeah, no problem at all. I do a quote on your part where launching of new features and then
getting people to enjoy the whole experience is definitely one way to go. And yeah, that
breaks the previous blockage in terms of onboarding part. So definitely we do hear a lot of insights from here.
I think this has been a very good session of space.
So now we move to, I think, the last two parts of the space
where I think one of the questions that's quite interesting
to every panel here is that I think we kind of agree that the
last half of the second half of 2025 is definitely bullish and then we see Bitcoin breaking all-time
high and then it's catching up as well so in terms of BC five growth, what kind of metrics or TBL or user exceptions that you guys want to predict or do some bold assumptions on how the growth will be in the second half?
And then why is that? So maybe you can pass around just to have fun. Maybe Khao can start first.
Sorry I missed the question.
So basically what I mentioned about is a kind of like prediction or assumption of how the BTC file will grow in terms of the metrics like TVL or the user adoptions part? Because we see of the second half of the 2025
is basically very bullish.
And then we have Bitcoin breaking up high.
So what do you guys think in terms of the growth?
Yeah, so I think, let me take,
I guess I'll take a hot take on this,
which is I think after maybe this time next year,
let's say, so let's say 12 months, I think our industry will start to realize that this idea of Bitcoin pumps and a specific prediction on Bitcoin DeFi in terms of like number of users and TVL and all that.
But I do think the fact that Bitcoin's dominance, I don't believe, is going to drop like everyone thinks it's going to.
And I say this as ETH pumps, ETH has been pumping all week.
And so that's obviously I think got got everyone thinking like, oh, this is the beginning of Bitcoin dominance dropping.
But I think you're going to find at the end of the cycle, Bitcoin dominance is still the same way.
And when that happens, I think that starts to open people's minds to like, actually, yeah, maybe we should get back to the king.
And so that's my prediction is ETH DeFi and Solana DeFi by the end of this cycle start to realize, hey, actually DeFi is going to go on to Bitcoin.
It's inevitable and we need to make the change sooner rather than later.
Got it, got it. Very interesting tech where we see that Bitcoin dominance will no longer follow like through the cycle.
And then, yeah, we shall see this and it's been very
Exciting because it's been changing
In terms of how it works in the previous cycle. So let us hear from Jay
What do you think?
Yeah, I mean
Saying what Kai said, I think we just see the big adoption from Bitcoin itself.
I also think Bitcoin will dominate in the future.
From a growth perspective, it just depends on what's hot and not right.
And I think it's easier to grow when something is hot.
And you clearly see that um
but if if it's a big if if we all execute in the right way and make sure um that we onboard people
we maintain people i can see bitcoin d5 100x and 100xing within 10 years obviously we are dependent on institutions and so on but
just wait when they all see what it means to get Bitcoin yield and then the rest of the herd
will follow in my opinion but obviously there's a lot of work which needs to be done so we will be so we can achieve this but yeah that's just
my take and i would need to jump now if this is um if i can do that but yeah thanks for having me
yeah thank you j for your time um do come along next week because we will have another one
uh so maybe we can pass to Luis on that
it's hard to predict and I'll give you an example so at the very moment Omidia hub the interability bridge between blockchain and other execution chains, especially includes ICP. and 64 million TBL. Yeah.
And at the same time, the number one bridge
Stargate has 366 million TBL.
So essentially, we got even with number one,
not only in Bitcoin, ICP, but in the whole crypto space.
And I cannot believe it if someone,
let's say makes this prediction a few months before.
So I think Bitcoin gave us the biggest, the largest room to grow and providing right technology,
great product design, great user experience, we can see this explosive growth happen again and again. Paul, I don't see any reason why it should be smaller than Ethereum DeFi or Solana DeFi.
That's all from me.
Golly, Luis.
I think both Jay and Luis has been mentioning about in comparison to all the DeFi market share within the
for example like the Ethereum ecosystem or you know on Solana is relatively small
and it's quite quite astonishing to see there's still so much gap to be filled
within the BTC 5 space so definitely 10x 100x could be really possible within the BGC5 space. So definitely 10X, 100X could be really possible
within the space.
All right, so let us pass to Clueless on that.
Since you guys are doing prediction market as well,
so perhaps you have some insights on
what's the most trending prediction on this part.
Yeah, absolutely.
First off, I just want to say,
if you have a prediction make it a market
on kairos super easy super simple um now that i've done shilling kairos i just also want to share
that um i do believe that uh you know we need to change the 10x to 100x because we are creating tech that is essentially going to engulf all
the ecosystems in Web3 and bring that liquidity in and allow and facilitate this flow of liquidity
towards Bitcoin and all these other chains. And it just gets richer and richer over time. And to do that, we will need excellent UX as Louis said.
And, you know, the tech is being built.
It has to reach a stage where, you know, my mom could hop in and, you know, she'd get it.
So, you know, we need to build towards, build for the people who uh believe that you know i posted a viral tweet
why didn't i make money out of it and then again apologies this might this is a biased example but
um you know you make a market out of your tweet or out of your opinion and you start earning in
bitcoin you know it's uh you take 1.5 percent of the volume of the market you've made and
you take 1.5% of the volume of the market you've made, and you're not really shilling any token to
dump on your followers, you know, so in my opinion, it's one of the most ethical ways for a creator
in this space, or, you know, forget the space, in everywhere, any creator can monetize their
opinions through Kairos, and then it's all happening
with Chainfusion and Bitcoin and all of this amazing underlying tech. So yep, that is my take.
Predictions is the new viral tweet or the viral post. And I think there is so much room to expand on everything that all of us are
doing and we're just getting started so i'm really really excited for where we're heading
super super cool i mean uh what what clueless has been mentioning about because uh we do see a lot
of potential there uh with um basically not not actually
batting with bitcoin but to stand with your with your perspective or your views as well
and then to to showcase and then to to onboard people to actually um in believing your your
perspective and also your vision so this is is definitely one way to build community around.
Alright, so we are almost at the end of the space. And thanks for everyone for staying with us.
And I see a few mentionable projects joining us here.
Hightower and OZ Wallet as well.
So thanks for you guys to drop by.
Do come to RuneSage as well because I think you guys will be involved in the event as well.
Alright, so let's move into the last segment then.
I think this is pretty straightforward.
Just one piece of advice for builders or investors that's aiming
to come in the BDC5 and then to grow together with all of us so like one what
kind of advice would you give to them who are pretty new within the space but
would love to join maybe you can start with Carl then.
I think for builders, I would say just get started.
It's never been easier to build on Bitcoin.
Omnity has played a big role in lowering that hurdle.
And then also now you have a lot of successful examples
that you can copy and learn from.
And so just get started and start building
and get your product to market,
get some feedback and evolve over time.
Got it, got it.
That's Pastor Lewis.
My advice would be in place open standard and lend experience from those who have achieved
a successful story.
The truth is the most successful Bitcoin DeFi
particle like Liquidium and Odinfan followed by Flockminer, Taichi,
Keras and quite a lot of others a build on ICP.
So ICP to infusion is the best place for Bitcoin
builder, all the technology headache,
the trustlessness, the middleware,
the on-chain indexer has been figured out and better tested.
All the things you need to deliver a great application is your creativity.
So yeah, join us and let's push the Bitcoin DeFi to the next level.
Awesome. Awesome advice here because I think
the SDP tech stack is definitely ready and then if any builders here have been listening
throughout the session, do just connect with Kyle or Luis here or even Clueless from Kairos to actually learn more on like what's
their journey about and then to just seek some inspiration or even just get
started and then get some advice from from these OGs here alright last but
not least let us hear from Clueless.
So my advice would be to not give up under any circumstances ever. And of course, you need to create the culture around you where it's people rooting for you. And there is loyalty. Like,
for example, our devs are, you know, they example our devs are you know they've been
approached by other players they've been approached by you know people who could compensate them way
better than we can but the fact is they love what we do and they love working with us and we love
them even more so because you know without them we can't make this happen. And over time, over this past year, we've had several L2s try to get us to build on their L2.
And we've had conviction on ICP and Chainfusion since the beginning.
And we've never really entertained such ideas.
So you need to have conviction in what you're doing.
You need to believe that in the end it's all going to pay off and people are
going to appreciate and enjoy your product. Like forget clueless.
Don't even who is clueless. I don't know, but Kairos,
I know exactly what Kairos is.
I have fun on Kairos and I can make money on Kairos.
So that is what I care about most. It's,
I want the platform to speak for itself.
And, you know, I don't want any limelight or anything like that.
I'm just, I will be happy once I know that, you know,
people know Kairos, it's a household name.
And yeah, and that will only happen if I never give up.
And if my conviction stays strong.
And of course, you know, we're in this fantastic ecosystem, you know, connecting with Kyle a long time ago.
And, you know, he supported us so much.
And, you know, OISE is here.
Shout out to OISE.
OISE on Cairo soon, little alpha.
little alpha. And of course, we do need to chat with the Omniti team and their REE system because,
you know, we have some cool stuff in the works. And, you know, I want to be able to integrate
all the awesome tech built in the space to create a holistic experience on Kairos.
So, yeah. And also, just a little spoiler.
So we have mentioned that Kairos is the L2
of prediction markets and because of ICP's chain fusion,
what we want to achieve is to let people participate
in deeper liquid markets from Polymarket, Calci, et cetera,
right from Kairos and right through uh and with your bitcoin
and um yeah that's a little sneak peek but yep don't give up have high conviction surround
yourself with people who you can learn from constantly and never believe that you have
all the answers because you will never have all the answers um so that's basically it. Thank you, Kim.
Awesome, awesome. I think I do like how you craft it in terms of advice, but the conviction definitely need to be 100% and also leaving back the legacy. So I think everyone's here
definitely building. Omniti has been building since the beginning and has been
building ever since. And then Living Legacy is definitely one thing. And yeah, I think we all
echo on that. So I think this is a great session and thanks a lot for everyone being here. So one
last thing to wrap up is definitely to promote about Rinse Asia.
So it's going to be happening on 27th of August in Hong Kong.
So if you are in Hong Kong and then or you are visiting for Bitcoin Asia,
so do come earlier on the 27th.
So maybe you can arrive in Hong Kong on the 26th.
And then you come by to 27th, 10 to 5th,
where we have a whole stretch of panels and keynote speakers lined up for you.
So I think even with this one-hour session,
we couldn't get enough insights from all the speakers here.
And then definitely you will have more to
hear about during the Runes Asia 2025 so I have attached the link on the space so do
click it on and then if you are there do do register and then do share it around to your
friends alright so thanks a lot everyone also to do to appreciate the
time Louise cow clueless Klyros so definitely happy to have you guys here
and so I think next week we will be having another session of pre hit before
we hit the last week of the of August where we will have the real event happening.
Alright, so see you guys soon next week, and have a good day.
Bye. Thank you.
