Projects
![]()
No projects found
Investors
New
DAO Treasuries
DATs
Lend / Borrow APRs
Chains
Categories
Spaces
RWA and Automation in the Physical Economy
Recorded: Aug. 28, 2025 Duration: 1:06:25Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. you gmgm everybody what's going on and welcome back to another punkism space it has been quite some time
since we've hosted a space here but again really really excited once again to be back here. I know this space is just beginning as well, but if we can all do ourselves a quick
little favor and just help push this space a little bit more by interacting with that space
link pin at the very top of the Jumbotron, that'd be very, very much appreciated. And
as always, we are hosting on behalf of PunkVism to talk once again on RWAs and automation in the physical economy.
I think this is something that, you know, one, is very much applicable in today's scene of crypto.
And again, just overall excited to dive a bit deeper into this topic.
But before we do so, I do want to check in with the panelists that we have so far and then kind of go from there.
But first, I want to say what's up to Katrina. Katrina, what's going on? How are we doing?
Hi, everyone. Yes, everything is good today. Thanks for the time and opportunity again. Thank you.
Absolutely. Absolutely. We appreciate you. Let's check in here with the rest of the guests. I see we also have Sadari with us today. Sadari, what's going on, guys? How are we doing?
Hey, man. All good. Yeah, it's Eddie from Sadari. Pleasure being here. Let's go.
Pleasure, man. Pleasure, man. Appreciate you joining us today. I see we also have Christian on the behalf of Straightfire. Christian, what's going on? How are we doing?
Hi, brother. How are you doing? All fine here.
Looking forward to the AMA. Let's do it.
Go, man. Appreciate your time and efforts as well.
And last but not least, I see we have Onino with us today.
Onino, what's going on? How are we doing?
Hello, hello, everyone.
Glad to be here and excited for the interesting discussions we're going on how are we doing hello hello everyone glad to be here and excited for the interesting
discussions we're going on amazing amazing and yes guys you we have the three awesome guests
with us today and of course um joined here with katrina as well on the behalf of punkvism
and i see we're also getting a lot of new listeners already coming into the audience so
everyone here in the audience guys thank you so much for joining early. Do not forget, the best way to support these spaces is by
interacting with that space link pinned at the very top there. So with that being said, and let's
not waste any more time, let's get straight into this conversation, right? RWAs and automation in
the physical economy. So kind of like just treating this as an icebreaker.
I think, again, we've had plenty of discussions in the past regarding RWAs
and why RWAs are probably the closest thing we'll see as of right now
to bring adoption into the space.
But to kind of set the tone here, maybe I'll pass it off to Katrina
just for the first question, and then I'll pass it around. But Katrina, first question going to you is just,
how does tokenization of RWAs change how we view ownership and liquidity?
I would love to hear your thoughts on this, Katrina.
Yeah. So in one line, the RWA tokenization turned paper like that, that's and the certificate
into rights that live inside your wallet.
And the liquidity shifts from like something's open counter to a 24-7 button.
So put simply that instead of buying or selling an entire building, or you can now hold just like portion you can afford and rental income or royalties, those get auto distributed by smart contract and every ownership exchange is recorded on chain. So audits and transparency are the default.
So your wallet becomes a deed registry
and because trades and settlements run around the clock
and price signals and move faster
and barrier to entry get lower.
In a short, I will say the ownership like sits
in your wallet instead of the traditional way.
And the liquidity runs 24 hours, seven.
And the rights is secured automatically with the transparency records.
Yeah.
Makes a lot of sense.
And again, I think organization as well.
Ownership.
I think this is kind of like what we tried to explain to normies, at least right on why NFTs are valuable and why just owning your own assets is very important as well.
Really well said, Katrina. I appreciate you ice breaking our way into this conversation.
And I do just want to hear from others, you know, on the panel as well on their opinion on this maybe christian going to you first on just like you know how does tokenization uh especially with rwa's change
how we view ownership and liquidity uh christian please go ahead yeah so i guess when when you
look at tokenization right it shifts the the ownership from being static and siloed to a more
dynamic and and programable uh way i guess traditionally, if you own a piece of real estate
or private credit or treasury bonds,
or in our case, like a media IP,
there was little flexibility.
A lot of the stuff is locked up, it's illiquid,
and it probably comes with a lot of long settlement silence.
So I guess the starting point is that it changes the psychology of ownership,
right?
So it's not longer about holding stuff for decades or for a longer period of
time.
It's also is now being replaced by just participating, earning, trading,
and sometimes even like co-governing.
And I think there are some interesting examples right so it unlocks
fractional ownership it is instantly transferable which I think is a great
feature of it and it's traceable and it's transparent so I think for example
when you look at the Signum Bank they were tokenizing a Picasso painting and
it then they basically enabled these people to own and trade like shares of this
I was like a four million dollar art piece or something like that on chain.
You see it already a lot in real estate and what we are doing is basically our tagline is what if
you could have owned part of Star Wars in 1977 before Kamlak became the big franchise. Now actually you can.
And by owning this part, which was not successful for everybody,
if previously you would invest in a movie,
it was completely illiquid until it's out there in the cinemas
or on streaming platforms. And now it's completely liquid from moment one you can sell it on so that's kind of
like my 10 cents on it christian first of all really great points and i love like the star wars
reference um and just to kind of follow up very quickly um you know i i look at almost the
entertainment products or the entertainment layer of just the, you know, the global, I guess,
economy, right? Because, you know, I mentioned, I think of things like, where are the biggest
communities outside of crypto? And I think right away of like, maybe Disneyland, maybe Star Wars,
maybe there's so many other ideas or, you know, products, I guess, that kind of come to mind.
I'm curious, Christian, from your perspective, what industries stand to benefit the most from RWA adoption?
I'm curious, Christian, from your perspective, what industries stand to benefit the most
In this case, in the near term, maybe like five to ten years.
Yeah, so I think that, you know, we've now seen the first wave, right, which is already underway.
So it includes like treasury bonds, private credit and real estate.
And I think it is easy because it's yield bearing right it the regulation
is mostly ready and it's traditionally illiquid so therefore you know it is a great opportunity
so on the finance for example is doing it with treasury bonds and for example red swan i think
is doing it with real estate now the next frontier i think and of course i'm a little bit
biased here but i think it will probably sit in commodities but also in cultural ip um so i think
you know on the one hand you have gold silver copper that type of thing um our thing is into
the the movies for example uh where you cannot not just trade them but i think you can just you can not just trade them, but I think you can fund them, you can own them,
you can share in the revenue stream of those IPs.
And basically, I think we all have an opinion about entertainment,
about movies, about gaming, about comic books, toys, all that type of stuff.
And I think there's a big link, actually, with the interest of Web3 communities
and the entertainment industry.
And I think we, for example, are currently in the process of setting up a $100 million fund that invests in traditional entertainment IPs.
And then we tokenize the fund. it's rated by a rating agency and therefore it's completely clear to the buyer of a tokenized
asset what is the underlying real world asset to it. And I think that that's probably where I see
the five years coming from is there's more regulations getting in place and the regulations
will probably focus on, well, if you tokenize something, you better bloody make sure that there's a real asset underneath and that we're not kind of like repeating what I think Web3 was doing over the past five years is creating loads of tokens that sometimes had no resemblance to the product or the company that sits behind it.
And I think that for me is building a true bridge between the real world, traditional finance, and crypto, Web3, and DeFi.
It's really well said, Christian. Again, I appreciate you sharing your opinion on this.
I do want to hear, again, from other folks, and maybe Sadari on this one.
Sadari, based on what Christian is sharing on entertainment values, things like Star Wars films,
based on what Christian is sharing on, you know,
entertainment values, things like Star Wars films,
you know, is this going to be the first approach
with RWAs or are there other industries
that we can kind of tap into here?
Sudari, please go ahead.
Yeah, well, there was already like a very
specific breakdown, right?
I think he got like lots of points.
So like, but from my opinion is uh yeah is the next logical consequence to break down things into fractions like we have
we have seen it with other uh industries before for example if you look at like a car sharing and
all this kind of stuff i think it's a little bit a similar approach right if you just break down like those ownerships into fractions and people like share the car or like airbnb even does a
similar thing right like uh renting out basically fractionized the apartment in kind of like a way
i think it's
luxury goods for example collectibles is something I can relate and seeing that happening.
Definitely makes a lot of sense, Sadari.
And again, I think this is why we're kind of tapping into this side of the conversation
on which industries can feel like it's the most in reach, at least in near term.
Onino, I do want to hear from your opinion on this.
Again, outside of the entertainment side of things,
what other industries are there possibilities
where RWAs can really dominate?
Actually, a loaded question from my point of view.
I am a big advocate of the entertainment industry,
just as we have clients that are
interested in the entertainment industry. But generally, we have to look at what
tokenization does right now and what we're doing in the future. And right now,
tokenization is primarily more about access than trading liquidity because quickly kind of comes after the excess part where you break a
bigger asset for example down or private assets that are primarily reported not accessible and
if you look at the financial industry which is a huge sector and try to break that down into
individual pieces there you'll find alone so many um different parts where you can see um the industry's property for example
um invoicing is a huge part because invoices sometimes take a large time to settle by tokenizing
them you can basically start um lending out money on the basis of the value of the underlying or
underwritten invoice you can think about private equity in terms of
pc funds a lot of a big problem with we see funds that recently have said they don't find the exits
anymore and then trying to break it down and access that to retail because retail last that
asset class is a huge opportunity for them and then i know a lot of c funds that are currently
actively looking into it so i would say organization is a big opportunity for every single industry we have
and the biggest um opportunity is in any industry where you're basically directly related to
financial streams of money that is currently inaccessible or just accessible for a tiny
fraction of people because it's on the one hand either very complex or on the other hand very um inaccessible
like a movie financing a movie there are different ways to finance moving into normal person just
doesn't understand it so it's really hard to break it down on just one single part
you know orino i think this is something that i want to break down as well in this conversation is
how how attractive is even the concept of tokenization
to a consumer to retail right because again i feel like crypto is still being kept in this light
outside of this space where it's it's very confusing it's complex right but how attractive
is tokenization to consumers right now well if i I just answer on that directly.
The key part in the whole thing is that the consumer
does not give a single, sorry for my language,
but a single shit about whether it's tokenized or not.
The consumer wants to know, can I diversify my portfolio?
Can I invest since into something
that has good yield or if it's something more cultural can I invest in something that has a
good yield but on the other hand really captures my emotion and I want to feel part of it and be
part of it we don't have to sell to organization to them we have to sell something that brings
value other than a technical term and buzzword and that's something we've done really bad in the crypto and web3 space over the last few years and there is a
shift right now especially starting like one and a half two years ago where I really tried to sell
value rather than tokenization as a tech and so at the end of the day if the asset works and it
generates yield and it's no vaporware then the value is there you just have to bring it to the right people
good forward and well said onino man i appreciate your takes on this um and again this is why i i
wanted to start off with this i guess in topic in the first hand because it's kind of breaking
down the layers here to understanding well where exactly um do r RWAs bridge between digital and physical?
But going back to here, and maybe Katrina, going back to you on this one,
I hear a lot of takes that RWAs kind of act as a Trojan horse
for mainstream adoption of blockchain.
Do you agree or disagree that this statement is still relevant today,
that RWAs are a Trojan horse?
Yeah, that's like um exactly how like people say it um to the average people uh a person that blockchain is still feels like technical and abstract but assets, they already know that real estate and music film or contents like
renewable energy get tokenized and flow on chain and blockchain doesn't feel like new tech anymore.
So it feels like tool that makes familiar experience and smoother. and also think about the um let me think about the rents and auto distributed
or revenue from shows like settling right after the um curtain drops and people don't even realize
they're using blockchain but they're just enjoying faster um fairer more transparent system that's the real entry point so yes um rwas can be the hidden gateway
to mass adoption and shifting blockchain from like speculative tech technology into everyday
infrastructure yes i agree yeah this is this is kind, again, where a lot of the takes are set around, you kind of have to hide crypto behind the product, right?
And again, I think I see this, you know, a lot more relevant now in a lot of today's crypto products where, you know, you don't necessarily see or feel the blockchain.
And again, I think the most popular reference is like a car, right? No one ever cares about if, you know, what part is doing what, as long as the car works
and it gets them to point A to point B, that's what's the most important thing.
So again, I think the Trojan horse, you know, statement is still somewhat relative today.
But again, just clearing the room, I still have to hear from other folks.
Christian, I'm going to you on this one, man.
Are RWAs a trojan horse for
mainstream adoption what's your thoughts thoughts on that yeah i think a short answer is absolutely
um and by the way i just wanted to tell the say that so you know i love how you are being
straightforward about the consumer not really giving giving a i think that's also the same
thing here right so i think when you look at the RWAs, what I think why is attractive proposition is because
you are wrapping like a familiar value or something with familiar value into new rails,
and stablecoins probably already proved that point by turning US dollars into program assets.
And based on that, like all these big players like BlackRock, Franklin Templeton and all
that, they were just pushing tokenized funds and treasuries and and and all that but rwas
will only work if you remove the crypto native jargon or like slang uh and just focus on very
basic things that everybody understands right it's like yield or return how much money i'm
gonna make from it so if you tokenize an asset, and in our case, same thing, right?
On the one hand, you get part of the revenue of a movie,
but, well, you know, that could either work or it couldn't.
If you don't actually then open it up to DeFi,
what's the point really, right?
So you're actually taking a real-world asset
turning into a tokenized digital asset,
and now you open it up for borrowing
lending, now you have something to work with.
And then of course
blockchain makes
it really accessible, transparent
and very, very quick
to transact. And I think
that's, I agree
with what one of the previous speakers
was saying about all these new
frameworks that are being developed in Europe, UAE, in Singapore, all over the place also with the, for lack of so, it's the only way on how the crypto, how crypto Web3 is going to be able to grow and become one with Web2, right?
I think for me, and of course, again, I'm very biased, but I think that this is the way on how to make it and make it work.
Before I pass it to Anino here, I love like the take that you said around DeFi.
I think DeFi ties so much well into
the unlock that rw has had and i think on you know i know i think that's exactly where you want to
share your thoughts so please go ahead yes i think that is important point to touch upon and that's
exactly like the definition of why it can be considered a trojan horse like it it does not start uh and
it does not end when you tokenize an asset and put it on chain and then the value locked of tokenized
assets rises it really just begins the journey and the journey really just gets beautiful when
you start connecting traditional finance with tokenization with what we've created in decentralized
finance because in decentralized finance there's so many creative ways that have been created over the last few years and that's
the main um innovation that happened in blockchain is that you can create completely new financial
systems by on the one and taking out the intermediary and just creating for example
like a permissionless lending protocol completely crazy you would have never thought about it 20 years ago um in that format and combine that with tokenized assets you have
enough of every institution will sign off on because they can invest in tokenized asset and
put it into a lending protocol and get more liquidity and do more stuff with it like there's
so many ways to connect tokenized assets and for me you can say traditional finance in that way with
defy that in five years it will the landscape in crypto will look completely different and the
trojan horse basically um for me there is that a portion of users will have the trickle down effect
where they will start accessing more sophisticated solutions than on the blockchain side and start using it while some that are just the consumer level will just use tokenized assets
to stay investors but there will be a big portion that trickles through and then we'll start using
d5 based on these assets and only you know just to keep going on this conversation because i like
what i'm hearing um do you think again this type of narrative for it to really bloom, it's going to start with institutions? And I think it was Christian that mentioned the whole stablecoin, the whole Genius Act, right? Is it going to start off with institutions, TradFi, converting into DeFi, and then retail and consumers will follow suit after?
converting into DeFi and then retail and consumers will follow suit after
good question um well I believe it will first start by the adoption of the biggest tokenized
asset there is right now which is any stable coin primarily USDC and USDT because when that gets
embedded into systems where the user like like the end user as an average,
Joe doesn't even know that they're using blockchain in behind the scenes.
That already can be considered adoption.
And then there will be many more applications that use blockchain as a backend, much as
I don't care what Amazon runs the server on, but it works.
And the same way will happen for the adoption of
tokenized assets and the general blockchain space because users will use it without knowing they
will not know that they will have created a wallet when signing up for a service of course there are
other security concerns but i don't want to cover them when they don't um kind of own your keys but
when they don't um kind of own your keys but that's how it will go it will start by institutions and
builders that just generate really good applications that have such a value
that you just start using them in the background everything runs on blockchain and then we're golden
i like that take i like to take it and like again circling back a little bit on the whole
trojan horse thing i feel like once institutions really fully accept and implement crypto the way we want it to be, I feel like this Trojan Horse narrative will no longer be, you know, not that it's going to be around, but we won't no longer be calling crypto or having to introduce crypto as a Trojan Horse or in this case of our conversation in RWA.
crypto as a Trojan horse, or in this case of our conversation in RWA, right? So I think the more,
again, the years come and hopefully institutions kind of play a huge role in adoption, we'll
probably see that curve and that complexity get broken down over time. Look, really quickly,
before I continue on and pivot this conversation one more time, again, shout out to everyone here
in this room that is joining up. Again, I think we're right around 60 plus listeners right now.
So, or just sorry, we bumped up to 72.
So to everyone here in this audience, guys, if you guys can show love to that space link,
especially as we approach the 30 minute mark here.
Again, I'm loving this conversation so far.
I love what I'm hearing, but support the spaces by interacting with that space link at the
top.
That's all I really ask for.
So really great, solid conversation so far, especially around RWAs. I do want to pivot
into the side of automation in the physical economy because I think, again, there is somewhat
of a bridge, especially when we're talking about the real world industries not too long ago.
So to kind of reset the room again, maybe Katrina setting off the tone on this side of the conversation.
What role does automation play in the increasing efficiency and transparency in real world industries?
I think this is, again, just tailoring off from what we're discussing previously and going into this topic.
Katrina, please would love to hear your thoughts on that.
Yeah, I mean, it's simple.
Like automation is a fraction remover.
All the stuff humans use to manually check and stamp
or use the phone call and automation
is executed instantly once conditions are met.
So in a trade, a shipment documents that once took days to process now
triggers immediate part-tier settlement so efficiency the sky rocket because machines
handle the repetitive path leaving humans for critical decisions and transparency jumps because every action is recorded. So no more finger
pointing and in a short automation oils, the gears of the physical economy and brings the trust as
abundance. That's I will say. Yeah, it's a fair, it's fair take. And again, I think even with the conversation of AI going around in this space,
I host a lot of AI agent-related spaces, and we talk a lot about this conversation of automation
and just the way that agents will essentially be running our own systems one day.
And that's kind of like the follow-up thought that I have when it comes to this. And maybe, Sadari, again, I haven't heard too much from you yet, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this, right?
Like, especially when it comes to smart contracts and just reducing friction, you know, can AI really play a huge role in kind of simplifying, you know, that down?
And I think I just saw Sadari fall off from the panel.
So let me pass it over here to Christian. Christian, I'm just saw Sadari fall off from the panel. So let me pass it over here
to Christian. Christian, I'm just going to repeat the question a little bit. In the case of AI
reducing friction and probably things like smart contracts and many things along those lines,
how essentially can we reduce that friction that I'm just describing in areas like traditional finance, logistics,
manufacturing, etc. We'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Christian.
Well, I think also linking back to previous question, right? I think, yeah, obviously,
it reduces a lot of complexity, it speeds up the workflow, it kind of like sometimes reduces chances of fraud and all that
um but at the same time whenever there's a link to the real world um there's always a
question on how it's going to work right um but i guess when you look at it on a micro level
uh and you look at a smart contract you know the smart contracts are already like streamlining a
lot of cross-border payments they're they're ultimate automating like invoice settlements um they're reducing in that
sense like counterparty risks um and and the other day i was meeting with centrifuge and um you know
they've already on board like real world um like invoices from uh small medium enterprises onto
the blockchain and they're therefore kind of like enabling on-chain financing.
And I think it's a great example on how that works,
particularly in the financial space.
So I think that the combination of programmable rules
and machine learning, it kind of like removes a lot of the manual lag
and it kind of like unlocks 24-7 execution,
which for some businesses is great. Now, I love to always work with like a North Star, right? So
when I look at the entertainment industry, the North Star is what if everybody is on chain,
right? Now, if I'm the IP owner and I have somebody going to a cinema somewhere, buying a cinema ticket to my movie,
it could, in theory, kind of like mean that
that 10% that I own of the original IP
is flowing into my wallet
from that person buying a ticket.
Now, everybody kind of like who listens to that
probably says, well,
that's going to be decades and decades away.
And I probably will be, right?
So I think that the complexity,
so on the one hand, smart contracts will simplify a lot and it will automate a lot. be decades and decades away and I probably will be right so I think that the complexity
so on the one hand smart contracts will simplify a lot and it will automate a lot but
wherever it connects still with part of this whole supply chain that is not on chain it actually
yeah raises some alternative challenges I would say and I think a lot of the coming decades will be around, okay, so how much of a certain supply chain
can we put on chain?
And yeah, we all know that there's loads and loads
of traditional industries that will probably be lost.
But I think manufacturing also find an interesting one.
A lot of people, we do a lot of business in China.
One of our founders, my co-founder is Suyong Zhao from China. And what we see is a lot of people think crypto is forbidden in China,
but it's more about blockchain that they've been building for the past 10 years.
In the supply chain world, they're putting every manufacturer on the same blockchain.
So in the future, if you want to produce something in China, you have to go through their blockchain.
I love that whole concept and what that would mean for automation and how it will speed up the process.
But it also raises other challenges.
So I think very optimistic, but cautiously, I would say.
So I think very optimistic, but cautiously, I would say.
Christian, do you kind of see this as like, because the way I'm visualizing in my head is like, is crypto meeting consumers first or is consumers going to meet crypto, right?
Or is it going to be a two-way street, right?
It's kind of like an exchange of ideas and maybe one company, you know, suits or creates a chain and onboards retail that way or et cetera.
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, so I think that great ideas, I think, start from a consumer-centric approach.
Now, then if you try to apply it quite often, and I think a lot of startups in Web3 are facing that same challenge.
If you want to implement it and actually make money, a couple of customers is not going to cut it.
So you need to scale.
And that's the moment when you start to talk to institutional investors and larger parties
and try to get them on board because they can then actually take that maybe
brilliant idea and turn it into something that actually generates revenue.
And then it goes back to the retail or like the retail client or the customer.
So I think it is, yeah, it's an iterative process that continuously is a bit of like
trial and error.
And I think that that's for anything that you develop
that is innovative, that has never been done before,
it's trial and error.
But I think always with the customer
or the end customer in mind, you develop it.
But then when you have new customers joining,
that kind of like view and position changes a little bit.
I think what we've seen is we are working with individual IPips and small curators and all that it's great it's very
inspiring now we're setting up the 100 million dollar fund because we know that now we can scale
we can invest we can push this forward um and that's sometimes what you need in order to
completely radically change a full industry of, in our case, a
$6 trillion industry.
It doesn't happen by having some retail clients.
Does that answer the question?
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.
And it's even got me thinking too on just like how much power do we let retail and consumer
dictate the products, right?
Because I don't know, like when I think of automation or even just AI reducing friction
I feel like the direction is going to constantly change or at least the pace of things are going to constantly change if retail is
Constantly evolving to you. Yeah, I have a very clear idea about this and not very popular idea
but I think listen to the customer but the customer customer does not decide what you're going to do.
So, of course, in Web3, there's a lot of DAO structures governing tokens.
The reality is, so we're also from the world of game development.
If you ask your customers to develop the game for you, nothing will ever happen.
You know, they can do nuances.
They can give certain ideas about direction,
but when it comes to building the solution itself,
it has to be done by professionals and with a clear vision on this North Star
and the roads, how to get there.
Now, you see in Web 3 that a lot of projects are giving their community the idea that they have an input.
Now, that sounds all great until the moment where they don't listen to the community and then it goes to the top, right?
So I'm probably less democratic in that way. I'm more in, okay, yeah, you listen to what people are looking for
and you see what kind of challenges there are in the industry.
And then you just leave it to the professionals to build the first part.
You try and test.
And then you kind of like do it like that.
So I think sometimes there's too much involvement in web3 by community in the building process of
stuff um and i think yeah there is a time in a moment but i know it's not a very popular idea
yeah yeah no and again like i think you're on something though um i even heard this take from
other founders as well and i can respect that um again, I don't want to derail the conversation
because I know this kind of stemmed
from an automation question.
But Onino, man, I would love to,
I feel like, again, like Christian and Onino and Siddhar,
you know, you guys are three guests,
but I'm loving the flow of this.
I want to hear from Onino as well.
I don't know, Onino, if you want to backtrack
a little bit on that question I asked previously or even just share your thoughts and on what's already been mentioned
where do i start first of all in regards to
uh what christian just said i'm completely on board with definitely have to listen to your
community and your users because that necessarily don't have to be the same thing, but you don't have to do everything they wish for.
Because sometimes just like what's just Steve Jobs' famous quote, basically in other words
just to play the words to the people who don't know what they really want until they have
And the same way it's often with communities because you have to do everything aligned with a bigger
picture in mind that you can just do everything that someone asks for it. Back to the
question in terms of automation and the role of AI and the intersection between
AI and organization or rather in general. I always love to talk about this when we take real estate into consideration
because that's always a good example.
Real estate right now, there's a lot of data flowing around in real estate.
Wherever country you look at, it's rarely a standardized type of data.
And that makes it really, really difficult to value real estate
and also be really difficult to think about it in terms of tokenizing it because every single
institution or client you look at has a different view of valuing that asset and the asset will have
10 different values at the market if you ask them and that's where we really have an opportunity with ai and in the section of ai analyzing the amount of data if we are able to standardize the data flowing in the
ai can help us withhold um management process conducting a big step here and you mentioned
that being that's organized the format where the ai can convey the information to any user in an
understandable way because everyone has different points of knowledge.
And you can, in theory, completely automate real estate.
Real estate is kind of one of the most manual industries when it comes to deal-making today.
And that's something where we have big path for growth ahead.
And it's not only real estate, but I think the best example
is it is in manufacturing.
It is in the whole supply chain.
It is in health care.
There are so many things.
And then tokenization is not only you can invest into an asset.
It's basically just bringing something on chain,
whether it's data, verifiable points within your supply chain
structure, IP, whatever.
And tokenization and RWA will eventually go hand in hand.
Well said.
Well said.
And again, I think your point and take with real estate, man, this is something that I
feel I've seen so many projects, especially with RWA-related projects, they've always
mentioned tackling the real estate market as a part of the roadmap.
I'm curious, though, Onino, what kind of progress have we seen in terms of real estate and RWA?
I'd just love to hear your insight, what you know and what you've seen so far as far as
progression, I guess, adoption with that new concept that you just mentioned um onino please go ahead
well i currently the verification of and standardization of real estate related data
and organization don't go hand in hand people People are focusing on one end and tokenizing
and using SPVs because it's just not possible
unless you're, for example, in Dubai
to actually create fractionalized ownership
of real estate and land here beneath it.
So using it for financing and making that accessible
and just conveying the yield to an end user.
That's how it's done currently in most projects um actual ownership is just rarely created but there's a big stride in in
dubai where they are currently starting and giving out the first licenses for actual ownership
tokenization of real estate and there are some big companies that are currently working on the data and verification angle of real estate.
But it's not yet connected.
Makes sense. Makes a lot of sense.
And I think I remember hearing, I don't know if this is true,
but I believe someone mentioned once in a space that imagine using an NFT that you own to even just unlock the door of a house that you own, right?
Maybe it's as simple as
tapping it on the key lock or something like that. I think that'd be very, very interesting one day.
Going over to Sadari. Sadari, I don't know if you've been facing connection issues,
and I hope you haven't, but I think I see you officially back on the panel. So that being said,
Sadari, again, just pivoting to a different question here. And I think it was Christian that mentioned it earlier on just like the systemic risk that maybe automation or its connection to RWA tokenization.
Does that create new systemic risk?
Siddar, we'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Yeah, yeah. I was dropping out of the space earlier i'm back now so it's all good and uh
i think um there's a reason that for example real estate uh is a very manual deal making
kind of thing right like because yeah especially those kind of deal makings there's a lot of
negotiation everything i don't really see this like in terms of automation like if you have okay maybe if your agent is very your AI agent
is very capable of like deal making but in terms of your kind of deal making right so you need to
train them in in your way of deal making and every culture has a different way to do it as well so
I'm not really sure if there's so much room for automation in in real estate so i don't really see see that in in this
kind of area you know it's funny because but there's definitely no no sorry sorry i'll let
you finish your thought go ahead uh no but i i think there's of course a lot of opportunities
and a lot of risk comes at the same time.
So I did go hand in hand.
Definitely. I mean, like, again, I honestly want to give the real estate concept probably like four to five years till I finally see some sort of, you know, big progression, per se.
Right. And, you know, just more of a general thought, I think this is kind of like
the state of crypto right now is a lot of things are boring, because a lot of brands and companies,
I feel like are in this experimental phase that I call it, where we're literally just testing out
products, we're gathering feedback, we're trying to figure out what is the way to go. And so that's
why I feel like, again, not that adoption is far away, but it's just the
concept and the conversation around adoption is so minimal that I really want to revisit
these topics probably again in like four to five years. I know it's a very long time. It'll be like,
what, 2029, 20, 2030 by then. But, you know, it definitely gives me some excitement to look
forward to in this space. But Sondari, yes, I love what you're saying here. Look, I know we're
also approaching the last 15-ish or so minutes in today's space. So I think we can fit in one more
topic before we do wrap up. And it's kind of like connecting both topic one and topic two around just RWAs and automation.
And funny enough, Sandari, you mentioned a word that I wanted to raise in this new question,
which is just the AI agents. I think we were talking very lightly about this already.
But again, the whole agentic evolution that's blooming within and outside of crypto. I think this is, again, a huge reason why
AI is going to be a huge leverage tool to even just get people interested in crypto.
But to reset the room, again, going to Katrina one more time, and then we'll pass the microphone
around. Katrina, could AI agents one day manage portfolios of RWAs on-chain without us having to do the manual work, right?
And how reliable is that?
Is this something that we could potentially lean into one day?
Yes, that's a good question.
I mean, when I look, in my opinion, the tech-wise, technology-wise, it's almost certainly yes.
This is my opinion.
And because agents already trade and rebalance and defy
and add RWAs and real estate rent,
music royalties and solar revenue,
and agents can collect and distribute and rebalance automatically.
So picture that just in our case that Ronald's football show, the RWA, as soon as the show
ends, the review data hits the chain and pay out to go to participants.
And at the same time, an agent monitors
Eternal Moon, Aztec Stores, and Lotus Fun Solar.
It might decide football show revenues are high
and let's reallocate some into solar.
Boom! A fully automated portfolio manager.
And when we think about the risk-wise,
yes, it could be the bad data,
like automated errors at inner scale,
but that's why that we are building safety nets
and multiple oracle fees and
anomaly alerts and human override triggers.
And, and yeah, the age of agents manage our WA portfolio is not far,
but as punkism is preparing by connecting real world project and
ensuring fast automation plus safe control.
Maybe I speak too much from our punkism perspective.
No, you definitely didn't. I will say that.
And first of all, we are being hosted on the behalf of you guys.
So please don't ever apologize for saying something on your
platform. But second, Katrina, I think you mentioned something very important here is like,
I think the margin of error needs to be extremely, extremely minuscule. I may be even talking zero
mistakes because if we're talking portfolio management, I mean, again, I mentioned earlier that I host a lot of AI agent related talks in general.
And something that we talk about a lot is managing like a portfolio of an institution, right?
Or even just your average trader.
And we're talking people's livelihoods sometimes, people's, you know, 10 year portfolio that they've been building, scaling for the
longest time. And I imagine, what if an agent one day makes the slightest error on a portfolio
and everything starts crashing, whatever it may be? That is what's really going to, once again,
I think really taint the reputation of how AI agents can be used in any such case, right?
Because, you know, breach of privacy, risk management, whatever it may be, there's so
many ways agents can essentially, again, pardon my own French, you know, fuck up the whole
system here.
But this is why, again, I like what you're talking about, Katrina, like we need safety
nets.
Now, what does that look like?
Personally, in my perspective, I have no idea yet.
Right. But this is why I wanted to bring it up as like the last topic again, as we head towards the end of this space.
But Katrina, as always, appreciate you breaking down and setting the tone for this topic, but got to pass it around.
I want to hear from Christian and then we'll keep it moving. But Christian, man, based on what you just heard,
We'll keep it moving.
But Christian, man, based on what you just heard, based on everything that Katrina shared, I would love to hear your thoughts again on just AI agents managing portfolios of RWAs.
Is this something that is likely to happen or what's your thoughts here?
You are muted, by the way, Christian, if you are speaking.
Oh, no, I cannot hear Christian at all.
Christian, if there you go, I think he already knows what to do.
Just drop off from the listener, hit the request line again.
I guess in the meantime, Onino, we'd love to hear from your perspective on this.
Just to repeat the question, AI agents managing portfolios of RWAs, is this a likelihood scenario to happen?
And what does it come with, the risk and the privacy?
Oh, okay, perfect. Sorry. I passed it to Anino and then I hear you back on the planet, Christian.
So Christian, please go ahead.
Yeah, so I think that I fully agree with her.
I think technically the answer is full hearted yes.
I think about full autonomy, I think that's probably like a couple of years away.
Obviously, we're dealing with governance, with regulations, with resolutions that probably need some human touch points.
But I think more importantly, it's also,
I think the point that you touched upon is,
what's the real expectation of it?
So I think if you now want to deal in stocks and you're using a broker, right, who's a human,
if that person fucks up, right, it's a bad thing
because you don't pay him for making mistakes.
But for some reason, it feels that yeah because he's human he's he's okay to make mistakes now
if we go into the ai agents part i think we have to accept the fact that there will also be faults
and i think as a starting point when you look at ai agents um for example, you apply it to real estate, you need reliable
oracles, right, that are feeding like real world data, like prices, cash flow, all kinds of market
data. And if you, yeah, it kind of depends on what kind of data, real time data feed you insert in it.
But then of course, you you know if you have an
autonomous agent kind of like managing the whole tokenized real estate fund that would be awesome
could automatically like acquire tokens of properties in like high growth areas or in like
new uh developments uh or if there's suddenly a market downturn you can it kind of like can manage
that probably also from a more objective point of view than a subjective point of view that probably is based on human biases.
But I think the starting point is that from a technology point of view, yes, is everything possible?
Probably not. And we need to adjust the expectation level that it will not be perfect because it's such a, well, we're so early in it.
And then I think Web3 with AI agents is definitely not a good representation of what's happening in
the world in the area of AI because there's so many AI agent projects that were set up in February
that were set up in February
that I simply just build a backhand to chat GPT.
That's not really, I think, what's good representation.
But yeah, that's just a side note.
Definitely.
And this is again where the slop can kind of peek through
and show itself.
But Christian, really, really well said.
I know we have seven
minutes left, so I'm going to do a quick little speed run with Onino and Sadari, and then we'll
probably close off here with Katrina. But Onino, I mean, a lot of things were shared around today's
space. And again, I appreciate everyone's efforts to be sharing their own thoughts. But anything
last minute, Onino, you just have on just the general topic and maybe just kind of like a prediction you have on rwa's and automation in the future of crypto please don't need to go ahead
um well just a quick touch on the ai agents i'm really curious how the liability area of
the ai agent trading will turn out um but we got prediction well the only thing i can say we got in tokenization
is that everyone is in the space is in the right space to be in because we've seen it this year
we see much more salary in the next year that the whole tokenized asset space will grow and other
than that it's hard to make predictions because i believe no one can really tell how the tokenized
asset landscape looks like in five or
even ten years but every single one on this space could turn around trillions in volume
eventually by then um because the space is still just evolving every single day and as
long as we evolve with it and focus on the value rather than the tech everything might work out eventually.
Absolutely, man.
Absolutely.
Just, again, got to give the space and time.
But Onino, appreciate your time here to be with us.
I see you unmuted again.
Anything you want to share?
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Or I could be wrong.
I don't know if that's a... I think it was just bugging out.
I was done with my closing words.
No worries, man.
Elon tends to be messing with us all the time on this app anyways.
Sadari, going to you.
Again, predictions on just RWA's automation or just general closing thoughts.
Sadari, go ahead, man.
Yeah, I think we already have so much optimization in crypto right now everybody has their own
bots there are so many bots also like sucking in liquidity and stuff like that so i don't know if
that's actually like a good idea and then again if everybody has their own ai agent i think we're
gonna head into like an ai agent war like it's just who has the best agent who says the fastest like i don't know i
think it's gonna be a little bit chaotic like um i mean it's definitely gonna gonna happen nobody
will stop that but uh yeah i i see a lot of risk like coming with that actually yeah if everything
is automated because there's gonna be so much like selling and like maybe there's some some downwards
or upwards like uh spirals you know like some orders triggering each other and all that kind
of stuff like yeah i think it's gonna be weird and this is why again you know as much as things get
weirder i think that's what's gonna make it more exciting right so sadar i appreciate your takes
on this um katrina going over to you for
the last take of today's space, and then we'll wrap up. But Katrina, any last minute things you
just want to share on today's topic? Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I think the trust and reliability
are everything and institutions will, you know, adopt the AI gradually using multi-agent systems and fail-safes and explainable
outputs to minimize the risk.
And it's done right.
AI can transform the portfolio management, but it's all about careful implementation.
That's, yeah, in my conclusion, yes.
Yes, execution.
I think that's what's going to just keep pushing the needle forward, right?
So appreciate your take here, Katrina.
But look, man, again, to all of our amazing guests,
Sadari, Christian, Onino,
appreciate the three of you guys for being the three awesome guests
on today's space.
And I encourage everyone here in the audience, please follow these guests, man.
They are all building amazing products, building amazing platforms in the crypto space.
And my biggest ask is just to shoot them a follow because that's the best way you can support them in the smallest way possible.
Right. So with that being said, we will wrap up today's space right here, right now.
I would typically play some music,
but unfortunately I am away from my desk at the moment.
So probably gonna close off
with maybe just this little round of applause
just for everyone here in this space
and everyone here on this panel.
But yes, guys, thank you once again to everyone.
I wish everyone listening a beautiful rest of their day, night, afternoon, whatever time zone you're in. And we will see you guys
the next one. Have a good one, guys. Cheers and peace out. .
. . . .
. . . . .
