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RWA Watering Hole #2 - Tokenization Talks w/ Frens
Recorded: June 12, 2025 Duration: 1:03:40Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. What's going on everybody?
Just kidding. Just kidding.
Our guests on stage here.
Happy Thursday, everybody.
Happy Thursday, everybody. Happy Thursday, old.
Going on, the credit guy.
None of them, Boris.
Happy Thursday, dude.
Thanks for joining us.
My pleasure.
We also got Ray Buckton from RWA World.
What's up, Ray?
Oh, GM, GM.
Yeah, if Robert Murphy is the Ayatollah of economics,
I think Boris is the king of credit.
You can just rock on that nomica for a little bit.
But yeah, no, stoked to be here, dudes.
King of the credit.
Ooh, he's moving fast.
Julian Kwan from none other than IX Swap.
What's going on, Julian?
Can you hear us?
Yeah, I can.
How you doing?
Doing great. We got you this time around. That's right. Good to be here. Love it.
Back in Singapore? Last day in
Palo Alto, so heading back tonight. Oh, nice. Well, hopefully it's nice out there. Also got
MetaWealth here. Let's invite you to come on if you aren't already a speaker Prove boom
What's going on who we got behind the metal wealth account today
Give you three guesses. I think you only need one
So is that that prosper right there I'll give you three guesses. I think you only need one.
So is that that Prospero right there?
Yes, it is.
I don't know who's scheduled to speak, but I'll be here.
Love it.
Love it, love it, love it.
Let's see if there's anyone else that wants to come on and have some RWA questions and talk with this amazing group.
Stick around.
We're going to be bringing on more guests so feel free to raise your hand or you know request to speak if you're interested in joining this
conversation but wow what a week um you know why don't we uh start it off with actually from from
julian why don't you tell everybody here a little bit more about ix swap and then let's go into your
your trip in the states yeah thanks for having us um i think
we did we run into each other bitcoin vegas oh i think you got into kyle i did that's right yeah
it's been three weeks um yeah hi everyone we um thanks thanks for having us on board we we run
ixs um we we actually rebranded a couple months ago um ix what was the original name of the
platform it was the first licensed real world asset decks i think we were super early in the
space on that one 2021 i think we launched um we actually had had a bunch of pulls up on there um
what we've been doing this year with some new joint ventures with crypto exchanges and fintech
platforms we've really been focusing more on the institutional side of the assets which is the the fixed income tokenized treasuries tokenized
money market funds they've found the product market fit in the space with uh all the stable
coin holders earning zero yield so yeah so access has been um pushing pushing um a bunch of new
products out where we we went to bitcoin Bitcoin Vegas because we've launched now the
first Bitcoin real yields product. So we loan money to Bitcoin holders who can then invest
into fixed income real world asset tokens. So in the Bitcoin space, obviously the king of digital
assets, it's a non-productive asset. 98% of people who hold Bitcoin earn zero yield. There's a small percentage of people that are participating in Bitcoin layer two yields,
which essentially is locking up your Bitcoin and earning rewards in altcoins.
That's innovative, interesting, valuable, but most people who want Bitcoin don't want to do that.
So yeah, we're excited to roll out Bitcoin real yield product.
And we're looking at expanding into the US this year.
We've been a Bohemian licensed entity that serves the world.
We've never onboarded US citizens because it's been so much drama there.
And the regulations have been facing the wrong way, I guess.
So yeah, we're excited to roll iXS into America this year and continue to push on this Bitcoin real yield product as our number one focus. That's awesome. Yeah. I can't wait to dive into that a little bit more. And actually,
why don't you tell everybody, when did you guys first get started in this space?
I think we were the first in Asia, 2018. We had a real estate crowdfunding platform,
the InvestorX platform, because we've got two platforms, IXS and InvestorX.
InvestorX was the first real estate crowdfunding platform in Singapore and Asia that went first into security tokens in about 2018.
We had a broker-dealer.
We applied for an exchange license, the US equivalent of an ATS, which took about five years to get approved.
So yeah, we've been in it.
We've been in it. We've been
in it as long as anyone. We've seen the ups and downs. It's great to be, as you guys have been in
the same amount of time almost, I think. It's great to see the industry finally getting together.
Exactly why it was a layup question. I wanted everybody listening here to realize that you
are an OG in the space. You've been at this for quite some time. Like you said, probably the first
in Asia. Super exciting to see the vision go global and finally make it back into the space. You've been at this for quite some time. Like you said, probably the first in Asia. Super exciting to see the vision go global and finally make it back into the States.
Thank you. We'll get back to the BTC Yield product and also IXS in general, but I want to
move on here to, let's go over to MetaWealth, talk a little about another one of our foundation
members here. MetaWealth, for those little about another one of our foundation members here.
MetaWealth, for those of you, Prospero, I wanted to share to everybody who doesn't know about MetaWealth what you guys do. And then let's talk about your huge news about the big institutional investment to some of the properties.
I love to talk about that.
But yeah, we're in MetaWealth.
We're one of the largest tokenizers of institutional good real estate in europe uh we're fully compliant uh before we just got our
vast in lutherania a couple months ago uh so perfect way i let the whole past video
very user funds it's legally yay it took a long time but well worth it uh to date i think we've tokenized i've watched track now i think
maybe like 160 units across spain greece italy and romania uh we actually hold the record for
the first second and third ever tokenized uh properties in italy so uh really cool stuff
uh and yeah the big news uh aps it's it's a product based institution put in 3 million euros.
So that's 3.4 million dollars.
They manage about 13 billion.
So being able to see an institution, a TradFi institution, with APEN to tokenized assets in general is huge.
Obviously, it's a drop in the bucket for them,
you know, orders of magnitude more that they manage.
But the as like the proposition
and the exits go through, it's kind of a green light
for institutions to say like, OK, like
a regulatory framework and all the compliance
that we have, like relatively safe to put in a framework.
It's been a very cool experience for us and we're looking forward to onboarding more institutions
and banks into our assets.
But for me, the thing that stands out is it's probably the first time on chain that retail has been able to get into an institutional
great asset at a one to one ratio as an institution themselves.
Usually institutions or big players can buy in bulk and get a little discount.
But in this case, one dollar is the same buying power as a institution uh that we have a legal understanding
so it seems significant for us uh as our pieces is the democratization uh basically it goes
i want to i want to dig into that i actually have a question around that i was curious you know
obviously you've democratized like you said you've created an equal playing field for all investors, but I'm curious, did this, uh, did this institution come in
and ask for some white glove handholding?
Did they understand what they were doing or did they merely just create an account signed
up and, and dropped, you know, the, the largest, uh, investment of the platform has seen today
platform is seen today in some of these properties
in some of these properties?
is it me or is uh prospero i was just gonna ask is it me okay i think it's uh
meadow wealth prospero i don't know if your connection, if you can restart. Yeah. I think you got you now.
I think we got you now.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I'm a underground.
I'm on the Metro right now.
I'm going home.
So a little bit of a, you're all good.
We got you back.
You got the question already.
Yeah, I got the question.
Yeah.
So, um, no, there wasn't a lot of handholdings, obviously from an institution's perspective,
it is a big risk to even put anything
on chain but given our regulatory structure I think when the lawyers went over the fine-tooth comb
they didn't see any issues with it and they felt that it was worth the risk for them
because obviously you know ETF news and the U the US regulatory clarity coming around is really kind of lighting a fire under everyone's butts.
So, no, it's not a lot of hand-holding.
And you're starting to see more innovative fund managers take risks from the impact of security.
Absolutely love it. It truly is democratizing the
playing field it means that there's probably going to be a whole lot more action potentially
coming to the metal wealth platform so that's exciting to see uh but also means that people
are going to have to be ready to jump on these deals when they get listed i know some of these
things go super fast uh but we're going to get back to that. I know we had Amr on the show at the Security Token Show a little while back talking about some of the future plans such as DeFi tools and other things you guys are working on.
So we're going to get back to that.
But we've got a bunch of other awesome speakers we're going to get to real quick.
Starting with, let's go with Ray, man.
What's going on?
You've got an awesome space, everyone.
Later again in three
less than three hours from now at 2 p.m eastern make sure if you're ready for more spaces action
you follow ray but uh tell us right tell us about yourself for those of you don't know
you and of course give us the latest insights from rwa world 100 percent herwig always good
to be here with you and the rwa fam chopping it up and kicking the tires on asset tokenization.
So many things happening.
Just want to echo your sentiment about people needing to get into these deals quickly.
I mean, Dubai just recently had a property sale sold out in seconds.
So we are reaching an inflection point here.
That's just super powerful, super stoked to be in the industry.
For those who don't know me, I'm Ray Buckton, head of research over at rwa.world.
We keep it simple.
You can find us at rwa.world.
My absolute precious little baby is the newsletter.
I curate that weekly with all of the juicy insights happening in tokenization.
Try to do it in less than a thousand words.
Finally hit 1,050 just because there's literally so much happening in the space.
I can't possibly pack it in in a sustained way while adding context at this point.
So it just goes to show things are really moving.
Also doing a little bit of cooking on the data side of the equation.
So pipelining some pretty sweet RWA data, everything from watches to, of course,
you've got the boilerplate indices, stock data, commodities.
But we're really zooming into the long tail.
We're talking, again, things like watches, social sentiment, demographic information,
pollution data, all the things that if you are building in RWA and you want to be able
to build quickly and with high fidelity, third-party corroborated data, plugging into any of the
major oracles if you're building in Web3 or using a single API endpoint if you're building
in Web2, we got your back.
We make it simple.
And that's our labor of love to advance the space and accelerate the actual building and bringing of real world
assets on shame. So super stoked to be here. As we're, as Herwig mentioned, I'm going to be
cooking at 2 p.m. on Wolf Crypto. So if you're hungry for more tokenization, definitely roll up
there. And you'll see here on my profile in the next week or two, going to have a literal calendar
of all the RWA
spaces happening in the industry because the amazing stuff that's going on at the RWA Foundation
and STM Markets, what Wolf Crypto is doing, myself, Zeus here on the panel as well,
doing some amazing work in the space. Definitely want to get everyone and everyone represented
to show that we are building this thing. So yeah, let's get at it, gents. Build in the future.
Love it. Love it. it love it before we move on
why don't you use one word or at least one topic so you could say like real estate or private
credit if it's two words but what's the one word that this week you would have to use to define the
rwa space oh man if i had to hit one word actually it's actually gonna be neither of those stable
coins and we can get all into that.
Oh, man.
Oh, man.
There are some things going on.
Boom.
Mic drop.
Let's get into stable coins in a minute.
But first, we're going to go on over to the credit guy.
What's going on, Boris, out of the UK?
What's up?
Tell us, everybody, what you're working on with Casu and also your background, because
because they should probably know you more as the credit guy than they should on just Cassu.
they should probably know you more as the credit guy than they should on just Casu.
Fair point. I mean, it's a title that you inspired me with. So thanks to you just off the bat with
that. But yeah, I mean, Cassu is super interesting. We're also seeing institutional adoption,
been working closely with banks and credit funds. Basically, what we're doing is we're providing DeFi access as well as institutional access via on-chain structured finance to high-quality invoice financing opportunities.
We have $40 million of risk capital from institutions, signed, sealed, delivered and coming online as we speak at a rate of about a million
dollars a week. And we also have another four million of DeFi sourced capital, which is also
currently getting deployed. So it's all happening and it's a true hybrid capital stack, DeFi to
TradFi. In terms of me, my background is actually an equity capital markets investment banker
and then dropped out of equity and moved over to the dark side or the debt side,
depending on how you look at it.
And ever since then, I've been working with non-bank lenders and other providers
to help them structure and set up complex financial services, structured finance
deals, a few billion dollars thereof in terms of term sheets and other expressions of interest
in deals that I've done in the past.
So yeah, that's where I shake out.
And I thought actually the most interesting point that's been made so far, other than obviously, you know, full deference to Ray and stable coins, obviously, there's a huge amount happening there. There's actually Prospero, nice, nice Shakespearean handle, by the way, and Mediwell about how providing financial opportunities one to one to people in the market is an enormous leap forward.
And I think that that really sums up everything that we're all trying to achieve.
It's one of the reasons I'm so excited about DeFi.
It's one of the reasons that I jumped out of TradFi because it is a boys' club and it
is a closed circle and it is, you have to be this tall to ride, members-only club.
And it cuts people out of investment opportunities.
And I'm firmly of the belief that democratic access
to not only capital, but investment opportunities
is a human and civil right.
And so it's very exciting to be here with people
who share that view and are taking things forward
with that philosophy in mind. All good, brother. I think her wig got rugged there. I'm back, but it's a civil right indeed. I love it. I love the way you put that.
And what ultimately was that red pill moment for you, Boris, that you said, all right, this is it.
This is blockchain is going to absolutely disrupt credit.
I've never seen anything like this before. I know it in my heart that you're going to become the credit guy.
What was that moment tell us that's that's actually so funny because that very few people i think have
a well maybe maybe they do but i never before had i had a a lightning bolt moment in my career
um and i had this lightning bolt moment i was sitting in a bar in new york um with some guys from Morpho and Gauntlet.
And I was talking about Casu and what it could do.
And they said, oh, but we could also do this
and pointed to all of this potential stablecoin liquidity
or Bitcoin collateralized liquidity
that could be brought together to supercharge Casu.
And I kind of looked at the availability of capital
and I went, I mean, sorry for my, excuse my French, I've got a storied history of swearing on spaces, but I literally went, holy shit, we could completely take every major credit fund to the cleaners with this.
And we can't, and we will. And we can, we can eat the lunch of some of the largest and most powerful black box institutions that have ever been created.
And I remember I had to go to the airport straight after that meeting and I had had a couple of beers and I was calling everybody in my contact list, both in TradFi, but also like DeFi people going, I just had this meeting.
This is what just happened and just running through it.
Um, and, and like, then I woke up the I woke up the next morning landing in London
with a little bit of a hangover,
but with the idea still fresh in my head.
And I was like, man, this is it.
This is what I want to devote my life to.
And beyond devoting my life and my career to it,
which sounds kind of dramatic, but I really mean it,
I also want to start screaming from the rooftops,
like, this is where the yield
can be. Credit is where yield can be found. A lot of people, like you said, Ray, and they're
crying out for ways to earn yield on their Bitcoin. This is it. This is a way that you can set your
watch to some of these returns on capital, as long as everything works properly, of course, as it's supposed to famous last words.
And that's what should feed you and your children and your children's
children. If you own enough Bitcoin, but that's what gets me really excited.
I got goosebumps. It's so awesome.
That's why we have such a great panel here represented between private credit,
real estate, even Bitcoin yield thanks to iaccess
we're going to get back to in a minute metawealth prosper i saw you raise your hand you have a quick
comment yeah i just wanted to comment he got the shakespeare reference for my name
i think that's the first time in crypto that i've encountered someone who knows the temple
it's the temple right yeah yeah i'm british baby He was born about 100 miles from where I live.
Fair enough.
Yeah, just wanted to say from a Degen perspective that I would like to take my Bitcoin, get
a load on it at 85% LTV and loop it infinitely and then just buy a ton of rwas that generate yield and then pay
it off you and i should connect after this spaces because i know exactly how to do that for you
from end to end and that's that's why we are building a community right there everybody and
speaking of community and the amazing group we've got here on today i think honestly the best
telegram group in the game is hosted none other
Than by Zeus who we got on stage here. What's up? So what's going on today? Happy Thursday?
We got another British accent on stage here
We're doing great
Thanks for joining us. Tell us about
Both, you know, you're I would also love to hear your red pill moment in the space and maybe tell everybody, you know, your work advising Maeve and getting into RWAs and just everything you're doing with your telegram channel.
honest i'm pretty jet lagged i've been i was flying for for nearly 20 hours yesterday um so
i'm probably my words are going to be all over about me i've been in rwas for maybe coming up
to three years uh kind of just started off pretty randomly i used to write quite a lot back in the
day and i'd um i wrote to one of the founders of mave and i just said like let me handle your
media let me write
for you and come up with some ideas um and it lets you just start from that I wouldn't call it
a red pill moment as such but that was kind of the clicking point and that's what kind of led me to
you know do a bit of do a bit of a dive on what RWA's are and and how people like me and you and
the panel can benefit and yeah I kind of took it from there um again that was probably two and a
half years ago or so and up until i started my channel my telegram group i hadn't felt like
there'd been a place where we could all google it or you'd have to go and dm something and yeah
kind of what what led me to start the group.
Yeah, that's basically it.
Am I rugged?
No, it might be me, but I got you.
No, it's a, I don't know, it's a direct right pill moment,
but I'm curious, what made you choose Maeve?
What was the first thing that you were like,
this is a cool project, is different yeah yeah I mean I was kind of scouting
on I to be fair my journey goes back to like when I was like 15 years old and I'd started in stocks
and uh Wall Street bets and I you know I was a little dgen and um and then I shifted over to
crypto and then that was 2021 slash 22 when I'd found mave and i've also had an interest in real estate um and this was
kind of a way to get into real estate without actually getting into it if that makes sense
um and yeah essentially that's why why i discovered mave it also helped that they were from um you
know from near me from northern ireland um and yeah kind of just went from there and then
here we are today in 2025 pushing rwas to to the moon love it love it boris you want to jump in here
yeah i was just gonna say you're brave calling a scotsman british because they tend to take
offense to that but i mean yeah no that's i mean it's it's good to see the British thing going strong. And also, yeah, just massive shout out to Zeus for his RWA chat, which has been actually a massive entry point for me. helpful in terms of not only educating me, making me aware of the ecosystem, but also
I use it as kind of jumping off point for whenever I'm going to like write about something,
because I've started trying to write some more educational stuff. Anytime I try to, you know,
share what small island of wisdom I have in my small corner of the financial world,
I always use that as like the seed from which I write. So I'll post something
in that RWA chat and I'll be like, maybe I should write a Twitter thread about this. And that's,
that's always where it comes from. So honestly, massive, massive thanks to Zeus for providing
that inspiration. I think he's inspiring a lot of people. And if you're not in that chat, folks,
you should maybe follow Zeus right now now follow everybody on this chat but
follow him send him a dm maybe you can get access to this amazing telegram but this is the part of
the the time of the show where i'll take a quick break to again highlight all of these amazing
members and ambassadors of rwas that we have on the chat here the rwa foundation for those of you
don't know we started as an effort to bring together all the L1s, L2s, marketplaces, tokenization engines, asset issuers, DeFi applications, and everything else in between that makes this industry hum.
Because there are so many challenges.
There are issues with taxonomy and standards, with interoperability, with actually proving out the benefits to both institutions and crypto
natives. There's a lot we can do by unifying and combining forces, but none of that does us any
good if it's just a bunch of CEOs talking with each other. That's why we are doing these spaces.
That's why we're launching the Wally DAO to be able to give crypto natives a voice when it comes
to RWAs, even a passport, if you will, through the Wally token to be able to take advantage of
the RWA ecosystem and industry. So there's going to be some more news later at the end of the
episode here, but I want to get back to our amazing panelists. Julian, as we talked about
earlier, you were an OG in this space. You guys were on the first ever real estate tokenization
platforms out in Asia. You guys have just been crushing it ever since.
Coinbase Ventures is an investor and many other prominent. I'm dropping off the top of my head.
And now you guys are really doubling down on this Bitcoin yield product. And it was actually
already highlighted earlier very nicely on the show about how we can take our Bitcoin and start
to move into RWA. I don't know I just want
to take some time from you here to just really dive into your thinking there why you know out
of your journey you realize this is the killer product that's going to help bring in a lot of
capital on the I access yeah thanks for the shout out good good you've got a great memory there so you've a few touch points uh yeah look what's been
the biggest the two biggest um issues i think for the industry for the last couple of years
uh in my mind now if we take regulation as just like a given as in it must be there somewhere
but it's kind of the boring part the biggest challenge has been quality of assets and then who's buying right where's the
money coming from and it's been a i think that's been an industry-wide challenge i don't think
i think maybe singer markets is probably one of the only company i can think of also doesn't seem
to have any that doesn't have solved their own issue for capital flows uh where they're now at
billions and billions um no one's really heard of them because they don't have their own token but that they've
they've uh they've killed it but so so lack of quality of assets and distribution channels right
they've been the key ones so we've now got this great time uh a moment in time where finally wall
street has realized that everything's going to get tokenized and that's a big lead from sort of Larry Fink and everything's going to get tokenized and it's going to be on
public change that's a big one as well those two statements and then we've also got all the crypto
guys coming right crypto.com buying broker dealers Coinbase is building an RWA exchange in Abu Dhabi
for years already we're speaking to the Robin Hoods and all of these big
exchanges because everyone wants to add these assets to their, you know, it just made a lot
of sense that eventually the crypto guys would want, you know, asset-backed tokens next to the
crypto and then you'd have this whole balance and that's where the whole world's kind of going. So
although we've got some great partners, crypto exchanges, fintechs for distribution and our own investors, there's a lot of challenges when it comes to working with B2B platforms.
And so for us, we're always looking for different ways to bring money into RWA.
And we had some discussions about a year ago with a bunch of big Bitcoin miners who were calling us and asking if we could issue real-world asset tokens on the Bitcoin protocol, which I hadn't heard of before. And I hadn't really thought about
it just because not much activity ever happened on Bitcoin. And I thought that was really interesting.
And then I started looking at other ways that you can make Bitcoin more useful and started
exploring all the L2s. And the L2s are great, although you could argue just like a lot of the
EVM chains, like how many more do we need?
What do they really do?
That question aside, the rewards that are given for the Bitcoin yield is in the altcoin.
So I think about it like how many Bitcoin users with the best asset in digital asset space want to put it anywhere, risk high or low, to earn a reward that is in a much lower quality asset. And, you know,
I don't think anyone in the world is going to debate that an L2 Bitcoin coin is lower value
than a Bitcoin from a quality of asset perspective, usage, size, capital, et cetera. So then we
thought, all right, well, why don't we develop a product? And we've got all these, we've got,
we've got this pool of capital sitting there. It nothing um it's growing we all believe in bitcoin it's it's leads the whole
market it even leads the the narratives it leads the momentum even around rwa which are separate
assets but i've been here now for six years and it's all about the bitcoin just drives everything
and if we believe in a two four ten twenty4, $10, $20, $100 trillion asset class, then it's just looking at that and thinking, how do we tap that for capital?
And in that way, then it's going to need to be regulated, compliant.
The BTC L2 is a DeFi, so that's great.
It's exciting.
Most institutions will never touch that in the next decade.
Risk of smart contracts, just not allowed to do it, don't trust it, don't
want those rewards, don't think it's worth it.
So then we've put a couple of different consortiums together, regulated custodians, regulated
market makers and us who have the licensed issue, any type of RWA, and we're now pushing
this out and I think it adds a lot of value.
There's a bunch of different ways to kind of do it, but yeah, that's why we're very excited to focus on this and watching the
financialization, the hyper-financialization of Bitcoin, the Bitcoin treasury companies,
like I'm extremely bullish on Bitcoin and then that leads us to be really bullish on this product.
Yeah, that makes complete sense.
I love how you track that out for us there.
And I actually wonder, you guys are preaching
and doing one of the things we believe in at the RWA Foundation,
which is supporting your own crypto-native token.
So can you tell us a little bit more about the IXS token?
Yes, IXS was our token that we launched as you as a platform
token you know bmb uni type token to raise money to to launch the platform so that was a 2021 token
launch we raised about 2.7 million and we're just building out now more use cases for the token but
essentially the one mechanism that we focus on is is is like bmb to buy and burn back
so percentage of revenue of the platform goes into buying and burning ixs tokens that's that's where
we've thinks the most valuable to reduce the pie we've got 180 million tokens they're all fully
distributed we've got no unlocks coming so uh and we don't wash trade the token so whatever you see
online is is real unlike i'm not going to name other names, but other tokens in the RWA space.
Yeah, so excited to push that out and bring some more use case to the token holders.
Glad to hear that that's still part of the roadmap and the plan to continue to build value on.
As I said, this is one of the tenets that we preach.
I know for the BTC yield yield product i think it's accredited
and institutional only right uh yeah to begin to begin yeah so for sure as you guys work through
all the regulatory uh yeah exactly you guys gotta get through that path but i think it's great that
for anyone who still believes in what you're doing this is the power of having one of these native
tokens out there so that someone can still sort of get exposure to your platform without necessarily being qualified for
for some of the cool products you guys are listed not to mention that eventually i'm sure they'll
align as you said you'll you'll get to retail when you can so uh just wanted to point that out to
everybody not uh not investment advice just again one of the tenets we like to preach that as we align crypto natives with RWAs, it won't just be directly buying RWAs.
It'll be aligning through governance tokens, through buy and burn models, through these different initiatives that we've seen be successful so that there's just more ways for all of us to win being early on this trend.
So that there's just more ways for all of us to win being early on this trend.
And moving on with that, Ray, you mentioned earlier that stable coins is your word of the week, if you will, when it comes to RWAs.
And I always like to call stable coins the RWA that's been hidden in plain sight, just growing and growing and growing.
Now it's over a quarter trillion in total issuance, and it's not
going to stop. I actually predicted at the beginning of the year it would double or closer to 500
billion for the year. So that seems to be on track. Ray, tell us, how do stable coins not just
support crypto, but how is this going to really also bring in additional capital into non-stable
coin RWAs?
100%.
It's such a good question.
And I think that prediction you made, Herwig, was spot on.
This is really the inflection point for kind of the traditional financial system to wrap
their heads around what's possible with the underlying technology that enables tokenization. Just in general, I mean, I know we're kind of stuck with the acronym now, but RWA,
it's a terrible acronym when you really zoom out, right? All my Trad5 friends think it's risk-weighted
assets. I've still not been shown a fake world asset. So what is a real world asset? It's one
of those things that we were stuck with, so we have to grapple with. I love the term tokenization.
Naturally, we're taking assets and we are tokenizing them.
But that opens up a huge umbrella, everything from washing machines to equities to indices
and commodities, sentiment data, etc.
All of this can be tokenized, so it can be very, very overwhelming.
I definitely echo Boris's sentiment, Zeus's telegram group, the lounge, the best place to be hanging out and
melding minds with people who are bringing things on chain, because you have folks who are focusing
on one of these verticals, one of these projects, and they know the ins and outs of all of it. And
it really gives you a finger on the pulse of what's actually happening in the industry. So
highly recommend. But stable coins are unique. They're the asset that everyone kind of
intuitively understands. A dollar is a dollar,
but that's such a great touch point. Once you begin to kind of sink down into that and digest
what that means, it begs so many different questions. Well, what's backing this dollar?
What about the yield that I can get from holding this dollar? And it allows for people who are
well endowed to understand the traditional financial landscape to kind of walk down the
road of tokenized assets without getting kind of lost down the road of tokenized assets without
getting kind of lost in the sauce of the art of the possible. Because it's beyond the art of the
possible at this point for stablecoins, it's the art of what's actually happening. Uber's CEO came
out, called Bitcoin a proven commodity and said stablecoins are super interesting for their
business model. As we know, Uber's been struggling to make a profit, but really they've captured a
huge, huge market share. So they need to save every dollar they can in terms of processing fees.
That's amazing to see one of the giants coming out and saying that. We have PayPal with their
PiUSD also kicking open the door. There's a $500 million Falcon Finance is bringing on for their
USDF supply. Same with Plasma. Visa took a stake in BVNK, a massive stablecoin issuer. So is
vanilla enough for the traditional financial industry to understand, but esoteric and
revolutionary enough? And I hate to use that term because it makes me sound like chat GPT,
but it is revolutionary enough for it to make a huge, huge dent in terms of the mindshare of
tokenization. So for that reason, we're seeing tons of incumbents kicking open the doors
and stable coins are really the thing
that they're able to wrap their minds around.
So that's been kind of top of mind for me.
Super exciting times to be in the market.
Yeah, I love that.
Anyone else in the audience
or on stage here have any comments?
An audience, if you have a question,
please post it, tweet it.
We'll get to it or raise your hand to try to get on stage. We still got some room, but, uh, anyone want to follow up
on the stable coin revolution? If not, we're going to move on. Uh, we got another speaker on here,
an official guest, but mouse. I'm a huge fan of the Bigfoot community.
You guys are showing up in troves, and I love it.
This is real community.
As you can tell, we're all about supporting community specifically for real-world assets.
So I'd love to hear your thoughts on – not your thoughts, but just share more about the project of Bigfoot.
Honestly, I don't know much other than what I've seen on the website.
Yeah, brother. Thanks for having me up, guys. I'm Bigfoot Mal. I've been in the space for a long
time. I joined with MC and them to really push the RWA ecosystem out into the world because we
all know that tokenized and digitalized assets are going to run the future of crypto and what he built He built three years in advance. So like once he had laid out the plan and how it was going to work out
It was just smooth sailing
So i'm going to give you guys like a really cool breakdown of how it works of how he's utilizing not only like
Rwax, but he's utilizing entities and he's also utilizing tokens all at the same time so everything's always constantly liquid. So the way it breaks down is we are a 1 billion total token supply which breaks
down the 1500 Bigfoot 404 NFTs which are tied to that RWA. Each 404 is equivalent to one night stay
but that goes by the amount of supply that's available. So if there's more 404s that need to be minted, that means that there's less available or that means that there's less the community has.
Right. So that means we get more days that are tied to each 404.
So the current rate right now is like 4.7 days per Bigfoot 404.
seven days per Bigfoot 404. But that breaks down into a total of 666,666 big tokens per Bigfoot
404. And the way it works is you just swap in, right? So everything stays liquid. So if you want
to swap into a 404, there's a 10% swap in fee that's attached to it. So it'd be 733,334 tokens to swap into a Bigfoot 404.
And then it's a 15% swap out fee. Now those swap out fees and the swap in fees, they go into our
RWA wallet, which we utilize to purchase our property, which we will then build five cabins
on, which is our first place that we're going to
build. It's going to have five cabins on it, and it's going to be in the upper state New York area.
So the way it'll work is each holder who has one of those 404s will then go through the
application that the founder and Meetin Labs and Metaplex are building together,
a DApp, to be able to just utilize your 404 on there it's going to recognize
that you'll then schedule the days that you want to go out and utilize your 404 and then you'll be
able to go out and use it if you don't have time to use it say you're over in europe and you don't
have time to come over here to utilize it you can if you want to take that 404 give it to the team
and say hey you guys rent this out and i'll take the roi off of it so you
have an opportunity to make money regardless the cool thing about it this is like the futuristic
style of like airbnb and stuff but there's actually like no timeshare fees there's none of that once
you own the 404 that's yours for life every every single year you get the same amount of days unless
the supply changes like people sell or something you will always get the same amount of days unless the supply changes like people sell or something
you will always get the same amount of days tied to the amount that are in in the actual supply so
you the opportunity as like a founder as like a community leader uh you have the opportunity
because we're going to have our own event center there that you can like take your 404 schedule
and plan an event and actually make money off of that like actually or you can do a free crypto
event for your community if you want or if you have a family and you have a wedding instead of
paying like 60 70 000 for an event you can have your event there because you have that 404 which
enables you to use it so think about all the different opportunities that are being created off of just utilizing 1.404.
And if you run out and you don't like it
or you don't like the place, it's always liquid.
So all you have to do is swap it out for tokens
and then sell your tokens and you're good to go.
That's the best part about utilizing your MPL 404, bro.
You're always liquid.
That is disruptive. That's a first.
So starting to see this trend come up where we can sort of decentralize, crowdsource almost via
Dow model RWAs, but you guys have taken it to the next level where it also cashes in as actual
stays. And like you said, a futuristic type timeshare model super cool thanks for sharing
that uh keep doing what you guys are doing i can't wait to see those cabins get uh constructed
um let's go back uh to uh looks like we lost meta wealth maybe but again if anybody on uh
in the audience here has questions feel free to tweet them out at us, or if you want to join the stage, come on up and ask us a question just like we did. But, uh, again, also take the time to
follow everybody who's a speaker, honestly, everybody who's in this community, we're all
here to help each other. So take that time. Uh, and, uh, let's go back to, to stable coins.
Ultimately, I see that there were a big use case, Ray. You lined it out well, but you've also seen this trend that they call yieldcoins, the rise of tokenized stocks, private credit, vaults, you know, things that may eat up
the timeshare more of the mainstream media, or no, is this actually going to be the next biggest
growing asset class outside of stablecoins? What does everybody think on the panel?
I mean, for overall, I mean, RWAs and digitalized assets and all tokenized assets, they are going to run because you can tell that every major government official that owns properties, you see states that are opening up their legislations to put in just only like the legislation for digital and tokenized assets so like it is a wave of the future it makes everything more secure especially
when you can do a bill of sale you know with crypto through proppy and you know 30 to 40 minutes
instead of waiting 30 to 45 days up to you know a few months depending on how it all works out so
like this is a wave of the future like you're just at the the the trendsetter line like you are the
trendsetter that's starting this. And it's definitely an
uphill battle. But once you get there, when you look back, you're like, damn, we were way down
here when we first started. We're the first believers. But now everybody in the world is
coming in. And you can see it because they're projecting over $30 trillion coming into this
ecosystem by the end of 2030. So think about it. Yeah, I think that's a great way to frame what
kind of what I'm asking is, will stable coins always be backed by the US dollar? You got a
lot of Bitcoin maxis that see one day the ultimate stable coin is Bitcoin backed. You got a lot of
people looking at now gold-based stable coins. Etherfuse is doing it for Mexicans, CETEs and Brazilian treasureros,
if I'm saying that right, but they're all the same thing, right? Government backed notes.
If you can do the same thing with a treasury token as a stable coin,
why wouldn't you always be picking the coin that's making you money, right? So I wonder
if the stable coin trend has its days numbered
or this is really just the beginning. And again, this is all just a drop in the bucket. Less than
1% of the population of the planet is using stablecoins. Ray, what's going on? Talk to us.
I absolutely love the way this conversation is going and the thought process for a week. I mean,
I think the thing that makes the most sense to me, at least intuitively, is that people want to be able to utilize their investments. I think that's
one of the things we've seen with the rise of Robinhood. We actually just had the Robinhood
CEO pushing the SEC saying we need to have some augmentation to the accredited investor credentials
here in the United States because it's become so oppressive. It's an anathema for your average retail investor to play in the financial markets,
which ultimately my favorite statistics back in the mid-70s, it was like I think low teens,
upper mid-20% of households had exposure to the S&P 500.
Now, thanks to IRAs and those sorts of investment vehicles, it's up in the mid to high 60s.
So more and more individuals are having exposure to the broader investment landscape, but they're not able to do much at all with their
investments. So I think it's super, super pressure. And I think that's where we're going,
where we're going to have stable units of account that are backed by things other than treasuries,
for example. A great example is a company called Mezzo. They offer Bitcoin-backed loans, essentially,
and they have a Bitcoin-backed stablecoin. So super interesting thing, similar to what Julian
and XSwap are doing. I'm kind of enamored with the idea of backing up stablecoins with things
that are comparatively cyclical. So for example, commodities are super interesting to me. Imagine
having a stablecoin backed up by various commodities relative to the harvest season.
A friend of mine, John Chopolitsky, CEO of Hashfire, who's doing some amazing stuff with the
state of Wyoming and state-based accounts receivables, he and I were having a discussion.
If you have a stablecoin backed by heads of cattle, does it have to be proof of stake?
And that's the question I'll leave you with, my friends.
Because cattle equals steak.
That's my dad joke for this phase.
I have to have at least one person.
Does anybody want to address that?
There are some other cattle tokenizations all over the world going on.
So there's definitely nothing is safe, which is another popular question.
Should everything be tokenized?
But can I hold off real quick? Anybody on stage really quickly want to address that? is safe, which is another popular question. Should everything be tokenized? But I'm going to
hold off real quick. Anybody on stage really quickly want to address that?
All right. Well, I'm going to change the conversation back to a little bit around
the foundation and the Wally Dow and how we're going to work with all of our partners. One of
the big things that we're focused on right now is how we end up bringing Wally to the market. It's also important, not just from the technical
perspective, liquidity and other things that are very important, but also our goal with this
mission is to incentivize RWA activity, help bring crypto natives into it, help bring folks and
actually help these marketplaces and partners
actually issue RWAs successfully, let's say. And so one of the biggest things we've been focused on
is how do we get this thing to market? You could easily just go list on an exchange or on a
decentralized exchange, but I want to talk about a new topic that I've seen that's kind of hot,
which is faults, right?
This idea that we can actually set up these platforms or I guess these structures to essentially
allow people to get in and get exposure to a different asset.
You throw crypto and DeFi in there.
That was what yield farming was.
But you throw RWAs in there and now this is just a whole new form of finance.
And it's getting a lot of people exciting as I talk to them.
I like to tell people, if you're just going to tokenize an asset and you're just going to bring it to market, good luck.
You're probably not going to raise money, right?
We've seen that for the first five to six, seven years of space.
And simply creating a better wrapper to get exposure to wasn't always
getting investment. But what is getting a lot of attention right now is the likes of
vaults, right? For private credit, for some of these treasury products, even stable coins and
Bitcoin to be able to then get exposure either to more stable coins or to different RWAs or even different financial constructs.
So I wanted to see if anybody else here on stage is exploring vaults, got any feedback,
or if anyone in the audience has any thoughts that they want to share around vaults. But
that is the big hint of the day that we are exploring vaults with Wall-E so that we can
go to market in a way that supports the industry, supports the
project without necessarily allowing for a lot of, you know, abuse, let's call it, or market
manipulation and other factors that we simply do not want bad actors to take advantage of. So
how's everybody feel about Vols?
Yo, yo, I'm going to chime in there.
It kind of goes with some, well, a post I'd written a couple of weeks ago.
I'd actually done a little write-up about something called the RWA 500,
which would obviously be similar to the the s&p 500 and it's just a way um i mean at this point in time it would probably be more called the the rwa 50 or something i don't think we've got
i think it was i think it's a brilliant idea i think it's
it's a good way to get people you know slowly introduced way real estate projects and you can invest in this and you know it spreads that risk altogether
um you spoke a bit about private credit you can also have yield vaults um you know permission
vaults nft vaults whatever it's going to be um and i just think it's a total step in the right
direction to to help and onboard the the kind of the Web3 people into, sorry, the Web2 people into the Web3 world.
So, yeah, that's my kind of my take.
Great.
Great take.
And for anyone, again, give a follow to everybody on here.
And Zeus has been doing some great write-ups and examples of tokenization use cases.
They are always inspiring and always get your mind jogging on the potential.
So definitely check those out.
Julian, you guys have the IXS token.
You mentioned you're focusing on some more roadmap.
You're using the buy and burn sort of opportunity.
Do you see yourselves leveraging vaults in your ecosystem at all do you see uh potentially the ability to
transfer into rwas directly one day with the ixs token anything you can share yeah we we started
off the first ever bulls um rwa against ixs because back in the day no one no one launching
in rwa wanted to put up the other side uh It doesn't make huge sense to have a crypto paired against fixed income.
I think with startups and more private assets, I think you could probably make it work where it's a little bit, maybe some flexibility there.
But yeah, I think we've already done it.
We've tried it.
tried it, how did it go, as you'd expect.
How did it go?
As you'd expect.
It does, it really is going to depend on the market structure and the sophistication of
the users and if it kind of makes sense.
Back in the day, no one really had a clue what was going on.
So, and we needed to get some pulls off the ground and then we have limited capital.
We can't be the USDT or USDC of every asset.
Obviously that would be impossible.
But yeah, I'm excited.
What, the space is always evolving.
So see how it works.
See what the plug-ins.
And then just take every day,
just take a fresh look at it
and see if it's now or if it's not working
or maybe it's later.
Yeah, that's the way to go.
And let's go around the room.
We'll start with you, Julian, real quick.
Any ending thoughts you want to share
as well as tell us a prediction
for what you think is going to be
the fastest growing RWA outside of stablecoins this year?
Yeah.
Well, I think in the next, well, we'll see what the next bear market
looks like for crypto.
My prediction is that it'll be less volatile,
so it won't go up as fast, it won't go down down as fast but i've been saying this for a long time that that that that next crypto bear
market will be the first bull market for rwa um and we and i'm talking about real asset security
tokens not utility tokens of rwa platforms which most of the world's confused about but for those that aren't confused you know when you see how did we get some product market fit for rwa it wasn't from
tradfi it was from stablecoin holders who were already in crypto and they were earning no yield
so when treasuries were paying five percent um some smart people decided to put treasuries on
chain so it was it's it's it's the stablecoin holders don't have
to go out of fiat and then they can earn a real yield because everyone gets 0% holding USDT and
USDC. So if you look at that, and then that's when we rebranded, I didn't rebrand, the industry
rebranded security tokens to real world asset tokens. So that all kind of happened over the
last two years or so. So if you think about that, I think you mentioned before, you predicted 500 bill of stable coins and
onwards and upwards we go. I think the Genius Act will multiply that multiple times that very soon.
But what it means is that in the next bear market, you're going to have 500 or 700 or a trillion
dollars of stable coins sitting on the sidelines. Now they've gotten
used to some of them, the game is on now. Some people are buying, some they haven't,
some have tried. Well, I think you start to see people going up the risk curve. So
treasuries will remain if the rates remain, I guess, where they are. And then you start to
see people go up the risk curve, private credit. I know the CASA guy as well. Good friends with Luke. That's where I think we're going to see. That's my
prediction because we're going to see 2, 4, 5, 10x the volume of stable coins and they're all
going to be hunting for yield. And then we're going to see the real first bull market for
people buying real asset tokens. Love how you frame that. And as they always say in crypto, once you go on chain, you stay on chain. So naturally, as we see a larger output of idle
stable coins, I suspect we'll see more of it go into hopefully RWAs and not back into alts like
we've seen in the last couple of cycles. And we all see how that ends up going. But the idea is
we'll have real value we can build off of.
Mal, you're going to say real estate?
What's your take on what's the fastest growing asset class this year in RWAs outside of stablecoins?
Yeah, I think what WhiteRock themselves are building is probably going to dominate and collateralize and math finance.
Like a lot of these companies that got out super early into the rwas
especially what right white rock has built they've raised more money in and in their pre-sale alone
for white net which is their own l1 rwa uh tokenized blockchain which is fascinating but it's
only made for rwas and rwa assets so i what they have built, that's going to like lead the
way this, this actual cycle with the amount of people that BlackRock back in them, their license
of finance through New York. So they're, they're a big time company that that's fully capable of
taking on their blockchain is going to do over 250,000 transactions per second. And if you like want to base that off the next closest one,
it's Solana at 60,000 TPS.
So, I mean, this company is really out here to take RWA's full stream
and, you know, they're licensed in the New York Stock Exchange as well.
So, I mean, they're a big player and they should be launching their L1 very soon.
And that's what I would be looking at for this cycle.
So that sounds like a vote for RWA utility tokens.
That gets me right back to Ray's earlier comment about, you know, seeing the, or with Julian talking about the transition from, you know, security tokens to real world assets.
And Ray talking about how all of his TradFi friends are getting confused.
And sometimes I think RWAs are going to end up being the utility tokens
and we'll go back to tokenization or something like that.
But who knows?
Ray, what do you think?
What's the fastest growing asset class outside of stablecoins this year?
Such a good question.
If you asked me at the beginning of the year,
I would have said tokenized private credit. Also, I got a DM for Boris. He said, please excuse me,
had to roll off and take an investor call. But he should be at the Wolf's base, by the way,
if you guys want to hear more from the king of credit there. To that point, would have said
private credit, but it's looking more and more like tokenized real estate. I'm just seeing some huge, huge things coming out of Dubai.
To Meadowell's earlier point, we're seeing institutions now get interested in tokenized
real estate.
It's something that makes a lot of sense for them.
I just did a write-up about kind of the evolutions of investing in real estate prior to 08.
Everyone thought, hey, national markets are correlated.
08 proved that that's definitely not the case, Miami being the canary in the coal mine.
Institutions have known this for a long, long time.
We've taken global exposure to real estate,
meaning that they have less of a overall correlation
in their real estate portfolios,
and now individuals are able to do that.
But the challenge being that if you go to sell a real estate asset
before, let's say, duration, before it's built,
if it's a new construction,
ultimately a lot of traditional real estate investors look at that time frame of the asset being held for such a short duration and say,
OK, this asset must be distressed. So there's a cultural gap between what traditional real estate investors see and then think and what the velocity of exchange tokenized real estate in DAOs is capable of.
And so we're seeing that kind of close,
that gap of understanding now that we're seeing institutions get involved with
tokenized real estate. So I don't know, I wouldn't bet the house on it,
but I might put my money on the house in terms of tokenized real estate being
the fastest growing one.
Well, it's a good bet given it's also the biggest by quite some factors.
But yeah, and it's continued to always
have been such a great use case. So it'll be interesting to see my opinion on how they continue
to leverage vaults and other DeFi technologies for real estate, but also what kind of bigger
issuers are we going to start seeing? We know we got SteelWave out of San Francisco, they're a
billion dollar real estate dev, but starting to see more of those you know equivalents
like say a blackstone leveraging to organization that's what I'm also ready
for Zeus ended off for us what's your what's your take fastest growing rwa for
the year yeah I mean I hate to pick one but it has to be real estate and again just to do with
the sheer size of the global market like the real estate's what 300 trillion maybe even more than
i don't even know if not looked in a while um and i think just because real estate's a universal
thing everybody knows that you know it's been profitable um and you get proper yields from the day that you think that
if we're trying to onboard the the web two people the thing that they really understand is real
estate's good and you're always told from a young age you know invest in real estate and
and that's why i think that real estate will lead the way
love it love it love it love it we're going to talk about real estate more next week unfortunately
we can't hear from meta wealth i'm sure we lost prospero in the metro uh but uh we will be doing
these rwa watering holes every thursday folks bringing in our foundation members our ambassadors
our partners and ecosystem of rwas in general like i said give everybody up here a follow but
give everybody in the room a follow.
This is your fellow natives that are focused on RWAs. We're all going to grow together.
And what you can expect next for the foundation and from WALL-E is actually a lot more new website
features. So if you have ideas, please reach out to us. But everything from fun stuff like media
and data to job boards and
meme generators, we're going to put it all together under the Wally Dow website as we start to get
closer to figuring out how exactly we're going to deliver the token to the market with our
partners. Again, this is not VC funded. We have no backers other than the industry itself supporting the organization and us at stm.co
helping manage it all. So we love your input. We want this to be community driven, community led,
community grown. And thank you all amazing panelists for joining us today. Zeus, Ray,
Julian, Mao, and of course, Prospero and and Boris, the credit guy, who already left.
And have a great rest of the week, everybody.
See you at 2 p.m. for the RWA Spaces with Ray.
Cheers, everybody.
Happy tokenizing.
Cheers, guys.
Appreciate it.
Thanks, everybody.
