Testing Joe, I can hear me. Yep. You're loud and clear. Yeah, how are you? I didn't expect to see you today
I'm well, I just got a message from you guys asking me to join. So I appreciate joining us. That's short notice
I'm sending out the invites
Get Evan to join us as well
See I'm interesting. So it's been a while. We haven't done a crypto space based on I'm gonna call this drama
Even though it's impacting a lot of people and some people that are not involved just call it noise
But people that are involved that are losing money because of this and they do want to get to the truth
Well, obviously try our best
Kyle we've done this before you were there if anyone doesn't know Kyle was there where we did the first space
the first FTX space he was co-hosting with me and his famous words were the beginning of the FTX saga when
Carly tell me I asked you if you're worried and then you tell me Mario
I heard rumors that FTX is halted withdrawals. And if these rumors are true, then I'm worried and that was the beginning of the FTS saga
So good to have you back man and congrats on your YouTube channel
No, good to be here man. Yeah, just a
little bit of a background noise in the next few minutes forgive me I
changes to my schedule be here, but I'm happy to be here because
So right after Satoshi VM launched
my research group we had they had the whole show was planned around
you know and everything from a terminal is gonna be huge and so she VM and blah blah blah like
You know most of the time when they come coming to the show
Like it's a good show. I'll produce it right? We'll write it. We'll do it. But
nothing felt right about this one to me like
And I started looking into it and I was like guys no one got into this. No, like everyone everybody that I know
Everybody that I know is talking about how it did
150 300 acts whatever from public sale and I was like and I said tell me one person, you know
They got an allocation to this and nobody did it, but they're like, yeah, but imagine if you did get one
Yeah, but no one fucking did, you know, this is a full a hundred thousand dollars at an ultra low market cap valuation
And they got and so I just think guys I can't do the show today. I don't know I
Don't think that you can point fingers like obviously both sides
Have a role in this neither of them can be oblivious than what's happening
It's the entire ideal space as a whole who nobody decided to innovate from lot and like
It's not just a terminal every ideal launchpad
Let me let me let me let me go through and when you say does this I want to go into it
so first on I just want to touch the VM for for
They've messaged me. I think was yesterday or today they said Mario can you host a space?
We don't want to do it ourselves because we want someone who's whose objective is not involved. I'm not an investor
I've got no allocation. I don't know how we missed it Kyle is good to know that you didn't invest either makes me feel a bit better
And but yeah, it's similar to a set cause a lot of VCs around me that were not involved
It did come as a surprise. We're usually either in talks or invested in every single project
So I have no horse in this race and I started reading into this
I read briefly yesterday a few people sent me the article and I started digging into it today
It does get a bit messy. I'll read kind of the breakdown that I have Satoshi is here
We did invite a terminal they did not want to join. We've got rug AI as well
They've done an analysis that we that we're gonna include in the discussion. So they're on stage
We've got Evan. I think Evan you're invested and you're pretty deep in the idea of hype
And we've got Mac who kind of kicked all this off with this post
So I'm gonna give the audience a quick overview and then I'm gonna go to Satoshi because you we have you on stage and Satoshi
I appreciate you guys coming on and you know willing to take the difficult questions from Kyle Jowa and others on stage
And I'm sure others would be and would would ask you would be supporting you as well
But now I applaud the transparency
Let me give the overview to the audience. I posted it as I was doing my research
It's a very brief overview does get a bit technical
but from what I understand and what I'll do is before going to Satoshi's I'll just ask Jowa and
Kyle or Evan or anyone else to kind of fill any gaps
That I miss and then we'll go to to the to Satoshi and Mac and of course rug AI
To kind of start digging into each single point
So the very brief overview for the audience is that ape terminal and the launchpad launched Satoshi VM and they blew up
They did a I think they peaked at like a 300 X and now they're sitting at 150 X from ideal price
And that's that's getting messy when Satoshi VM. Sorry when Mac and BTC who's on stage who's an advisor
He made a post and I'm gonna start pinning them for the audience as well
He made a post that claimed that ape terminal scammed Satoshi VM investors and they took the tokens themselves
Satoshi VM dropped 38% in three hours and picked up to one down six point two
And I picked up seven point five and Mac. I'm gonna go to you in a sector start going through every single point and telling us a story and
Denied the claims so ape is the terminal that launched the token called Satoshi VM for anyone that doesn't know and then ape claimed that Mac
Sniped liquidity and gave tokens to his friends profiting ten million dollars plus in a day from the sale of the tokens
Mac denied those claims said he was threatened with deformation rug AI publisher report
It's all happened in the last few days
Analyzing an analysis. Sorry claiming that Satoshi netted four point seven million dollars the project
So the team behind the project and Mac his buddies walked away fifteen million dollars as a claim by rug who's on stage as well
It's gonna be a good discussion and today Satoshi VM put out a post saying there's a lot of misinformation being spread and they plan
On open sourcing their research paper tomorrow. So that was put out today
And lastly Zach XBT put out a comment and saying both quote both ape terminal and Mac are guilty of acting dishonest
Towards their users and followers. So he did not mention I thought he mentioned
Satoshi VM, but he did mention ape and Mac and we have Mac on stage as well
So I want to I want to go to the Mac
Maybe we'll go to you first because your pulse and I'm gonna pin it while you speak your pulse is what really kicked all
So tell us a story from your perspective and we'll ask you a few questions as well again
Appreciate you joining coming on stage and for anyone requesting to speak I see dozens of requests
Make sure you DM me on why you want to come up if you're a chain analyst if you're an investor if you've got some
information you have to DM me the team has to go through your DM and and
Everything before bringing you up on stage and but Mac appreciate you coming on man. The mic is yours
Yeah, thank you. Thank you Mario. So basically this this this space
All the FUD and basically state the fact facts around
Satoshi VM and not really attack ape terminal because I think our
Holders are hurting. There is a lot of misinformation and I just want to clarify this with the team
So yeah, I think we let's start from the beginning
I think I info about the team then we can go over what tokens how much was sold and everything
The team wants to be fully transparent
So, I mean you can start them from the beginning and go
But I just want to make sure that I don't want this to be like a beef beef space
And I don't want to basically attack a terminal if anyone wants to check
Everything is on chain. Everything is out there right now
People are researching and checking all the wall is checking all the transactions. It's all out there. I just want to basically
Clear the FUD around the project Satoshi VM and clear the FUD around the team
Basically make people realize like this is you know, this is a real project
Matt can you clarify for us exactly what your role is with Satoshi VM my advisor?
I I heard earlier that you that you were actually more intimately involved with it
I even heard from one source that you were actually one of the co-founders
I'd like to know exactly what your role is
Yes, I will actually mark let mark from the team answer and then I can just take it from there
It's better to hear a direct answer from the team than me
I think so mark can can you hear us Marcus?
I know you dropped out in the meantime
I've just pinned for everyone in the audience have pinned max post that kicked this off and and
Started the back and forth with a pin rug and mark from Satoshi VM. Are you there?
Yeah, sorry guys. My never is kind of on favor right now, but I'm okay right now
No, so the question that Kyle had and I wanted to ask exactly the same question
What was the relationship you guys had with Mac and BTC? Oh, yes
So so here's because um other group
Are currently based in Singapore and Hong Kong, but we are not good at marketing stuff
We are like a group of people who are like Bitcoin followers and developers
But we decided to build Satoshi VM as a community-driven particle. So
and also we know that Mac he has some good adaptations and the good resources in the field of crypto, so we
Kind of like this gospel some to us if he wanted to be our market advisor to help us to promote our marketing status. So
That's the reason why I pointed mark as a market maker. Sorry. I'm sorry guys market
When when was when was this official advisory put into place?
And so Kyle was asking when was the official advisory when did he become an official advisor?
It's about like three months ago when we talk about Mac
Mac did you have any role in in supporting the the economics behind the
Specifically the yes, the fundraising strategies in the public sale. Yeah, I can go over everything. So I was basically I was the one that
Selected all the investors for the bootstrapping round
I selected we selected the investors based on the value and basically commitment what they can bring to the project
I've been helping a lot of projects before with kls and marketing such as new can you clear?
Can you clarify for the audience a difference between the bootstrapping round and a public sale?
And there is only yeah the bootstrapping round basically was mostly kls
So they raised Satoshi VM raised two hundred thousand dollars and we raised from around
230 kls, so basically two hundred thousand dollar allocation but divided by
230 people so the average allocation in the bootstrapping round was around eight hundred dollars per person and
What was that? What was their fully dilated valuation?
The fully diluted evaluation of this round was two million. So very very low how much two million
And the strategic ground. Yes, so ten percent was total sold to
Bootstrapping basically bootstrapping people people that mostly kls but also people that what was what was it? Sorry? What was their lockup, man?
So the lockup was 50% TG and that the reasoning behind us because I know many people have this question
And why why you know why so many tokens unlocked?
TG and the reasoning if you think about it eight hundred dollars allocation per person
We reduced the allocation of everyone in that round. Everyone's pretty everyone was pretty mad and they were supposed to supporting the project
I've honestly never I worked with a lot of project projects, but I have never seen such a community and just
Basically support behind any project from all the investors
So when we caught all those investors, we basically decided with the team. Let's change the metrics
let's unlock a bit more on TG and
It did it did honestly much like much much better than the team expected and everyone expected because I feel like
So I feel like I feel like that last part of what you just said
without telling everybody
That a lot of kls were unhappy that they didn't get the in the bootstrapping round. And so
You gave them more allocation the public sale round. Maybe it wasn't maybe sorry
Maybe it wasn't on eight terminal, but you made room for more
In that wrap pricing round. No Kyle. Yeah, Kyle. So basically it's two hundred thousand dollars
We had two hundred and thirty people in that round and public sales completely different. So we raised two public sales
It was on so the IBM raised to public sales
It was on bounce finance bounce finance did a completely fair sale and the congratulations to them
I think everything can be checked on chain and
Really thankful to them and we did also 1% on a terminal. So 2% was done on
Balance finance and 1% on a terminal and there was no other rounds. It's only two hundred thousand dollars raised from
For bootstrapping. No other rounds Kyle
And what why was it decided?
As someone's asking a question, so I call you dropped out. Yeah, I'm just you're
Evan Evan. Yeah, sorry. I think why did why were there two different valuations for the public round?
Why was a terminal having a 10x the valuation of the same exact public round same exact one person?
It's because for it's because balance doesn't do a fixed fixed rate. They do it
There's a whole things on a marketing curve. So
Yeah, well, so the market will determine what the price is what they're willing to pay for an asset
Which is it was a great model. We're actually looking to blend it and paid
Um, of course, you're not going to get the same and this is what we'll get into mario is my entire philosophy around
This launchpad has done this many x's and like because we were like
Admittedly, we were part of that in the last bull run, right?
We didn't ever compete at the same level that a lot of these guys did because I mean i'll tell you
You know, we'll get we'll get into the we'll get into it in a bit
So so I want to go back to the discussion. So we know that i'm not sure if you guys have further questions on max relationship
With satoshi, but he was a marketing advisor. And do you mind sharing?
For satoshi guys for mark from satoshi vm. What was max allocation? What was his compensation model?
Not sure how transparent you want to be
Can you hear us mark or mac
Sorry mario, I can't just repeat that because my my network is just oh good. Oh good
So the question again is what was the compensation that mac received for being an advisor?
And I know these questions are usually things that you don't share publicly
But I think it would help just considering the circumstances any transparency. I think is is going to be good for you guys
Uh, yes, because um mac is our advisor and also we disclose this part in our economics that
so the total proportion of
Um, both both those trapping and advisors goes to 50 percent of the total supply
Uh, the five percent goes to advisors and I do have um a group of advisors. Um
Including mike and other like the strategy advisor, but I cannot disclose about this specific portion, but uh, the allocation goes to mike
Uh does belong to that five person
Okay, so then I want to go into and we got rand coming up as well
I want to go into max post which i've pinned for everyone. Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead car
Say how much how much how much of the advisor tokens? Um, what was it?
Five person in total goes to advisor and what was the investing investing as well. Yeah, what was the vesting?
The vest thing was initially ten percent tg and now it's changed
So ten percent tg and we changed it. We did a post the team changed it
So it's three three months cliff and then it's uh, I think 16 months or 14 months vesting
What was that initially or even two years it was 10 10 percent then three months cliff and then 10 per month
So everything got changed because when the market to be honest, it's like the market decides the price and if the token starts trading at 100x
Um, the team basically had a call and had the decision to make to protect the holders and you know
The investors already profited enough to protect the holders and protect the community. Um, they just had to change the lockups holding
Emission schedule, uh, it just becomes lower
Okay, um, so i'm going to go to the post unless the panel has further questions on this point joe
All right, I think joe i'll let you fix your mic
So i'm going to go to the post now that you've put out mac if you can explain the the thought process behind the post
I'll read it out for the audience. Everyone is pinned above
So mac puts out a poll saying a person I considered a friend and ate dinner with a week ago has lied to my face
Betrayed and scared me several ideals in the crypto community
The ape terminal has scammed all of the ideal launches on the on their platform
So it's a pretty big word mac when you say someone's scammed
Because now you came in and said I don't want a bad mouth ape terminal
So I want you to tell me if if your perspective if your your your position changed or there's
New information they have access to
On why you started out with a post saying they scammed all of the ideal launches on their platform
To now saying I don't want to bad mouth them. I don't want to attack them
I'll keep reading the post
200 000 wallets applied to win the ideals and 10 winners got chosen per ideal
All of the winners was all of the winners was the ape terminal team on top of that
They took 25 fee that they also kept I introduced the ape terminal to satoshi vm team, but sadly
But sadly could it looks like it could it looks like it was impossible to trust them doing a fair sale
They returned all of the the tokens the satoshi vm tokens to the satoshi vm team
But made millions selling the winner wallets and I think you made a clarification later that they didn't that it wasn't all the
Um, what was it? The so i'm looking at the clarification that you you put out later
But it wasn't all the winners only part of the winners that were part of the satoshi vm team
So can you explain what that post is and i'm reading it?
There's a few grammatical mistakes. I'm guessing it wasn't it wasn't checked by anyone
You just kind of put it out. Maybe emotionally if you can explain the thought process behind it and that dinner that you had
Yeah, I mean that post was uh,
Very little sleep. I I tweeted that and you're right. It was a bit emotional
Like I said, um, I really don't want to
Make this into a beef space where I shit on ape terminal
I just want to say ape terminal returned the 25 of the fee they took for idoing
So I at least I will say that they did that that's right thing and everything else is
It's trackable on chain and I think a lot of people right now on twitter are checking all the wallets are checking all the connections
And they can do the decision, but I really mario. I appreciate you for taking
This space and making it in such a short time, but I just really want to um
I mean either they took the money or you did so I don't understand the part of being
Like the niceties to be well, I want to there's there's there's two different two different
uh places where where exploits essentially happen here, right one was the
Public sale allocation and how that was allocated and the other one is the sniper bot and someone
Someone had someone had the smart contract address before the launch to be able to know what to program into banana gun
Mac I want to go back before we dig into the sniper bot and who's behind it and trying to identify the person responsible
The question I have to you and at first I appreciate you not making this into a whole beef and shit talking
Especially since ape terminal isn't on stage
We did invite them just for the record for the audience
But mac the question after is can you tell me more about that dinner?
Who's that what you could share about it who it was with and what triggered the emotion and that came after the tweet?
No, mario. I I I can't let's talk about the other
Basically the main thought about satoshi bm that there were like tens of millions dollars liquidated
Uh, the team is going to be completely transparent and basically disclose how much tokens was sold
And why what the why was the purpose of this selling?
They're going to disclose it now if you let them talk and they will post all the wallets
Uh rug ai can later verify if it's true
And I think we should just keep the space basically clear the father on satoshi bm
And you know if if ever in the future, you know, we can we can take us on the ape terminal
Maybe do a space where we actually talk about all the other stuff. But mario right now, I think I understand
I really want to clear the product because I want to hold on hold on hold on. Yeah, go ahead mac. Yeah
Mario I just feel bad because I introduced this, you know, I
The team trusted me and I did the introduction and you know many of the pro
Basically the project I I got to build on satoshi the partnerships. Everything was good, but not everything
I just want to say sorry to the team. I didn't like I didn't know this would happen
I just want to apologize to all the holders and
Yeah, I just want to keep this space basically clear all the father on satoshi bm and the team makes sense
So before you jump in kyle, so essentially mac
Now I appreciate you focusing on on the project itself
The story I was asking about is essentially what happened at the launch of ape with ape terminal
um ape terminal said and I will move off it in a bit as you requested but ape terminal said that
Um, so you claim that ape terminal, you know took the tokens for themselves
Ape terminal said that you and your friends sniped the smart contract
We just don't know who it was. It could be ape terminal could be used someone had access to that to the smart contract before the launch
Kyle you wanted to jump in on this one before going to mac
Yeah, it's real quick. I just want to I wanted I would like like mac
I I appreciate what you're saying and everything like that and I and I want to give everyone on stage a fair opportunity
And I agree with this is not about roasting anyone specifically like I said before this is a a greater issue here
But um, but please please do not say that I mean everything is clearly on chain
But the thing with on chain we have a problem with is that if someone knows
Like there's obviously ways for for someone to remain anonymous on chain for a very long time
Right. So so I don't want I don't want to start statements by saying
We'll know sooner not because everything's on chain, right?
That's assuming that whoever took the wallets or whoever took those those funds are going to send it and docs themselves on an exchange
It's willing to give up their credentials, right? Which is highly unlikely
So I I just want to remove that context from the conversation moving forward
Because I don't think it's a fair assumption to say that it's on chain. So everything will be validated. It's not fair
The thing that's the on chain. Well, if you if you basically search on twitter and find the evidence, it's just
Many of the wallets were funded at the same time
I have selling at the same time
Basically the same selling patterns and it looks like it's like one person owning all of the wallets
But let's move away from that. I really want to take
And talk about I think yeah the project is stuff. Yeah, I'll go I'll go
Of course, of course, let's talk about let's talk about the snipers
So I think the team can take this I just want to say on bounce finance and even ape
When there is a ido the token contract is public for everyone to see
Long before the sale so anyone can set up a gun and basically a sniper and they can try to snipe and uh
Like that, you know, there is a lot of projects where the team snipes with a smart contract nothing like that was done here
Uh that they actually found in twitter and dm'd hey and because he sniped like 10 million
I wanted to auto see the tokens and buy it from him, but
He just said i'm almost done selling
So I just I will let the Satoshi dm team speak on this and uh, i'll go i'll go to mark
I'm gonna go to you on this one
I think you heard the back and forth that we just had with mac
And I just want to remind i'm seeing a lot of big names requesting to speak
We'll be bringing your tom. I see you da Vinci as well
We'll be rotating up to the panel shortly and anyone else requesting make sure you dm me on
On why you want to come up and what information you have for the team to vet it
But mark the mic is yours that you know
All this is happening around you mac wants to really focus wants to limit the damage happening to Satoshi vm
Um, so i'd love you to clarify the story. What was your reaction first when you saw max post?
Um, and then maybe clarify the story from your perspective
Oh, yes, so uh guys, um, we just wanted to
Tell you about the true story we are discussing about
how we are going to launch our token on ethereum because
Literally, uh Satoshi vm. We we are a bitcoin ecosystem project and because we do have good guys
They are they're being like researching about the market trends about the target markets
In terms of the bitcoin ecosystem and we do realize there are an opportunity in the field of bitcoin ecosystem
so that's the reason why I decided to
Launch such a beacon there too and officially
Token in the form of brc20 on bitcoin
and at that time we haven't decided yet about how we're going to launch the token how we're going to
You know to to get a token server communities
But uh when things going on we we just the math bounce and because they do have a really mature
Uh scheme in terms of bridging those brc20 tokens from bitcoin to ethereum and they do have a standard
Uh, you know standard format to launch those tokens and also we saw people in the community
They are claiming that oh why the token deployer of savm is actually
You know attacked as a melt based deployer
It's a reason because we are utilizing their standard bridge scheme
So for all the tokens they choose to bridge their brc20 token from bitcoin to ethereum and other event compatible options
The deployer of the token remains the same
Yeah, and uh, just back to our strategy when talking about this
With because we decided to we finally decided to um
Have a fear launch form and we decided to launch on ethereum on uniswap base 3 and we do realize that there will be
Exist snipers because if you're it's a narrative if the idea if the
Technology behind your practice is brilliant
It will get attractive from the market and because of the functionality of uniswap
It's like the counter address of your token pairs and also the feed tier then the contract address of the pool can be
The contract address before we haven't disclosed. What is exactly time we are going to launch the token
Snapper which means you have to
monitor those your target pools and you have to bright the miners because you have to filter transactions just right behind
Uh the transaction of deployments, but there is risky because you don't know exactly how
Market is going to populate this
This token you don't even know about like starting price of that you always have to bright higher than others
But you don't know about that. You have to have an expectation and we talked about mac about how can we avoid this?
There are actually two solutions. One solution is that we negotiate
Um with multi-bates to modify to add some
Logic like to to empty those whales and snipers to constrain the box limits and also the token
means per time, but we think it's it's not okay because
The standard because the solution provided by multi-bates is actually standard
We cannot just modify the codes of the contract. So we we talked about a second one
It's only counts that we can be the snipers to do that to get the tokens
But after that we come to conclusion that we count because it's going to be expensive
We just don't have money to run for that
So we decided to be a fearless we decided to serve the community as bad as possible
And we just wanted the market to know about the protocol the
We changed some kind of a consensus about protocol even though we might get not but I think it's fine because in the long term
Populate it because we do love bitcoin system and we noticed that
So I want to go I want to go to I know you've mentioned a lot of points
It did get a bit technical. Um rug
I want you to to jump in on this one because I know you did put an analysis report as well
I see bubble and yago's hands up as well rug. Are you there? Yeah, i'm here. Can you hear me?
Yeah, so yeah, I can I can so I want to I want to go through your analysis after first
Can you just summarize for the audience all the points that mark made kind of simplify it for the audience?
um, uh, just the concept of a fair launch and and the
the the the the the the inevitable
Sniping is going to happen when the token launches
And then your take on what he said
So first you summarize it for the audience and then give us your perspective on it and then i'm going to get into your report
Absolutely. Um, so the concept of a fair launch is that they release the contract address and
More or less anybody can create a sniper to
Buy up a large portion of the pool very early on in the life cycle. He's talking more. I can hear him
Yeah, he is he is i'll bring you down and back up. Yeah, go ahead drug
Yeah, so so as i was saying you can snipe a large amount of the tokens very early on in the contract pool
From what we saw we do analysis
We're we're still in private beta, but we do analysis in snapshot clusters throughout
Um the life cycle of a token
So we were able to see very early on how this progressed and how this fair launch started
And then within after you know, 10 minutes who owned the tokens and and how it progressed
um, so fair launches are often a good way to launch tokens, but
As as has been covered here
They can be gained to some degree because if some people have the contract address and some people don't they have an unfair advantage
In being able to buy the tokens early
But it seems as though um, at least the team has cleared up that many well, everyone had the contract address because it was on
But what we noticed looking into it is the number of wallets at the very beginning one of the wallets owned 12 percent of the supply
But there was quite a few snipers. It wasn't just one person
Obviously, there's a dominant winner. So typically with uh, you know kind of complex on-chain sniping
Normally, it's the top one percent of people that win. So yes, there were a few winners
I'd say the top five did very very well, and we identified those wallets in our thread
Um, but more broadly one wallet did extremely well, but there was progressive selling as well. They weren't holding the tokens
Um to the very end and they weren't trying to corner supply. Ultimately, they were just trying to make money
Um, I think the large problem at play here is
I think in my opinion what's being disclosed and what hasn't been disclosed. I think it's not uncommon for the team to receive tokens
It's not uncommon for the kol to receive tokens
It's useful for people in the industry to understand who they are and how much they made
I think that's just a natural cause of speculation
And what we have looked into I think perhaps in my opinion the biggest problem is the fact that
Ape terminal didn't disclose the fact that they they may have had wallets and didn't make it a fair launch
And we did some more analysis on this and we found that you know
Five wallets were funded by mexie and three of the wallets were funded within five minutes of each other
Uh, and one of the wallets were also a winner of a previous launch as well
So to me, it seems clear that there is evidence on that side to show that ape terminal were gaming some of these
Idos, um, so I do think that was predatory but to some degree it's a little bit unfair
To make that a reflection of the sabm team because I don't think they were aware of that
To be completely honest and I think to some degree snipers are a little bit out of their control
So I understand people are speculating and it's very easy to get lost in a narrative here
But, uh, this was my take on it and we did do a lot of analysis on it, uh, and we do have some
Yeah, i'm gonna i'm gonna pin your or you can pin it yourself since you're on stage
Um, you can pin your post with the analysis for the audience to have a look at it
But what you're essentially saying is that in a fair launch everyone's gonna have access especially since the the
The contract was on on the terminal. I think it was bounced whatever it's called
Let me have a look what's called. It's called. Yeah bounce finance smart contract was there
So anyone could really smite sniper and and the game of sniping is is a very unfair game
It's like a very small percentage of snipers will really get will be the real winners
and many will not eventually make money and but what you're saying is that the the
The red flag that you saw in all this is that ape terminal had a few wallets that benefited from the launch
And that was not disclosed. Is that correct?
That's correct. I mean the problem isn't that the team made money or the kol's made money. I think it's broadly
We're broadly aware that that's how this these things work
I think that's fine and often these are disclosed and it's not private
But it is a massive problem if you don't disclose that you're doing an ido platform and you're not doing a fair launch
I think that's a big problem. Um, so really I think it comes down to transparency and
You know, that's what I think. Yeah
So and you also clarified
Evan i'll go to you afterwards just one more comment and i'm gonna go to evan you clarified that
That's that should not reflect on the satoshi vm team and would you also say so because ape terminal responded to max claims
So mac put out that emotional tweet after the mysterious dinner he had
And you know anyone could try to connect the dots on that one
But we're not going to dig into the dinner
But instead we're going to dig into ape's response right now and they said that mac himself and his team
Money. Um, so they sniped the smart contract i'm trying to see mac owns a huge amount of unlocked
Uh, s a vm. So, uh satoshi vm tokens sniped liquidity and gave tokens to his friends
That's a claim by the ape terminal. The ape terminal said that they did not have secret wallets that benefited
So what you're saying rug is this claim?
Did you find any credibility to that claim any credence to that claim?
I'm going to be honest with the open say no, we didn't find any credence to those claims
I think it's very hard to understand who exactly is behind the identity between certain wallets on chain, particularly the sniper wallets
Um, but I find it highly unlikely that the wallets that were used in this case were
Um, if i'm honest with you, I think the ape terminal wallets were very well connected and the evidence is pretty clear
That they weren't doing things fairly
Um, and to be honest, I mean you guys all in crypto
It's very easy to obfuscate information and make it seem as though it's one way
Uh to try and confuse people and make it seem as though something isn't the case
So I I think really they were trying to cover their own back a little bit and take the attention off them
Um mac, of course, he received funds. He's an he's an advisor, you know every there were 250 wallets that are advisors
Um and same with the team, right? Of course, they receive funds
They're part of the team and it's very normal on tge for a team to receive funds
That's just that's part of a team allocation, but it is highly highly, you know abnormal to
To take idoc to yourself and I think that's the broader problem
So I I feel as though mac was well, I think mac was genuine
It's hard to determine who the sniper were but from our analysis it seems unlikely they were connected with the team
Um, and we we do think they look better
I want to go guys. I want to go. Sorry joe. I just want to go to evan first
As he tried to jump in earlier and then we'll go to you guys just just yeah
before before we uh before we switch topics
Let me let me say one thing before not now, but before again, I will go. Yeah, we'll do what I promise
Yeah, evan go ahead. Yeah
Yeah, I was just trying to say go back on what ragi. I was speaking here
Like it's not normal at all how this project was done, right?
I mean what we already know. Yes, there is a high chance that a game
They'll go at the how the tickets were given out, but it had one person of the supply
There is no way most of the money that was lost went to the ape terminal guys
What was the issue is and it's not normal that kol's get allocation and teams get allocation on day one that they can sell kol's
Yes, but most ko i'm a ko myself i'm in 600 projects mario is when hundreds would mean
We get like two three percent zero point two three percent of the total supply that's actually sold to investors
The way the sale was done from the beginning where satoshi dm decided we're only going to raise 200,000
Is that all they needed to actually execute the project? They could have easily raised more from traditional vcs
Why did why that was not done? Why was only 200,000 raised you could have raised more and not sold the team tokens on launch
You didn't have to no teams have unlocked on tg
I don't know any team that has unlocked on tg if they have that i'm not going to invest
No, no, you're meant to work
For the project every single project that that has a team unlock is doing something wrong
Right, and I mean the way this was structured 10 went to friends of your friends here mac, right? So
Let me clarify a bit of this because it's not true
Uh, the team the contributors that's that portion is locked
It's fully available six six months lockup
And if you guys want to know how much the team actually sold
I will let the satoshi vm team speak and from what pool that was sold and everything and later for example rugai
Or I see bubble maps in this chat. They can verify so can we let maybe the team speak?
Yeah, I think this is yeah. I think this is an important point evan. So I I want to I want to note it because
It is not normal for a team to have an unlock on tge
No, but there is no capital before the launch team isn't unlocked. Like where did you get this from?
Where is the team selling the tokens you you said that he's gonna explain what they sold and why they sold
Why are they selling in the first place?
Is not meant to sell on the launch if you're telling people to buy and they're selling at the same time even that is obviously wrong
Let me let me let me tell you something
Go ahead. I will just quickly say this every project that launches on a centralized exchange like binance all those projects gets
It's low float the market maker gets tokens the teams always liquidate on binance. I know it for sure
All the projects liquidate 10 million 20 million the first day tree market maker and those tokens are unlocked
So let's just make the team speak
What was what happened and basically how much it was because I think there is a lot of mean in-stream information about numbers
There's some crazy numbers going around
I wrote a note. Yeah, so I wrote I think this is very important one on whether
Whether the Satoshi team sold any tokens that launch and how much because obviously that was that would reflect on the project itself
So I wrote a note mark to make sure you answer that question. I think it's very important for the audience
I'm going through the comments a lot of people
Can you add one more question to this is yes
Abe terminal had one person of tokens to sell or play around with
Most of the other tokens sold were allocated by the team or sold by the friends of team
Just be clear with that because ape terminal only had one person. I'm not denied
They didn't do anything wrong, but i'm still stating the facts
They had one person of total token supply while everybody else had 50 percent unlocked at like much more token supply
Yes, so mark i'll let you and mark answer these two points now
So I think they're important before going to kyle joe and bubble and yago
I'll let mark speak and the team and I want them to speak long because they can explain everything and it just sounds more
It sounds better if it's coming directly from the team
I'm just gonna i'm just gonna build on what evan said real quick just because that way I don't have to come back to me
And it's yeah for the team to answer it's perfect. So um, so so what evan said was great
what I was going to say is that
It seems ludicrous to me that a layer a layer two that wants to be successful
Wouldn't raise a bunch of money
Enough to for at least two or three years runway
So that means that there was a discussion for sure and this is what I'd like team to answer
For sure there was discussion of how the fuck do we get enough money to pay payroll?
To build the ecosystem fund to expand the team to do marketing to do all this shit because it the long
Long gone are the days of if you build that they were come right that worked for bitcoin and ethereum nothing else
Right. So for for a layer two to raise almost no money
Is insane you could build something if you have a team of dedicated developers, but like
Why would you not raise the money ahead of time and what evan was saying?
Leads exactly to the point of like there was a strategy for sure
Of how to bring in treasury and the the idea so everyone understands this because I also advise a lot of projects
Is they don't want to sell a bunch of tokens at a fair at a lower valuation to the public for example
That's why it was it was a crime to sell a hundred thousand dollars
Uh worth of worth of tokens on it was just ridiculous because they knew
That they were going to sell tokens in the open market at way higher valuation
And that's what evan was saying was correct like the team intention the intent and this is not
Exclusive to sotoshi bm by any means but the intent for sure was there
To sell tokens at launch at a much higher valuation on the market versus selling them earlier to
Public sale and when we get back to when we circle back to what pay network has been doing is exactly to avoid this
Exact what happened but that that that is 100 percent the intent was there for sure
I mean, there's no one can deny that yeah and call to add to that
Most most mass kol launches let's call it instead of like a vc
Getting vc's involved. They haven't worked out exactly for the reason you're talking about
Is that's what's happened every single time and that's why there is no successful project that was launched with you know, 200 kol
Uh that I can think of at all
So guys, I I think we all made our points and some claims as well mac and mark
I appreciate you, you know listening to all this and not jumping in so I want to give you the mic to respond
Um, and then we'll go to bubble afterwards
Mark, did you want to go first?
And I want you to focus on
How many tokens did the team sell and what is the lockup period and from if you could share the wallet and details as well
You guys can just review our token comments on on websites
Uh, we for the you know, for the propulsion goes to the contributor part. We don't have any
Unlocking amounts at the initial stage
The only propulsion people are just curious about is that we have a
Um, that's you know transferred a total amount of 100
um a 90 some hand sorry a hundred and ninety thousand some hundred tokens to
Market maker because yeah, I know I care. He's talking about that. Okay
You're going to say that you need this money to have at least two or three years wrong ways
My answer is we've been working with the market maker to secure one and a half year runway and cover all in costs
And those parts tokens actually come from the liquidity part. We also
Uh, we just have 30 persons goes to the liquidity with 20 person goes to uniswap
Um, and this amount of money actually comes from that liquidity part. We didn't use any uh, locked
Team set and as do you know you mentioned that uh, you you've seen a lot of lyrics
You just need to do the bc to have those
Violations, but we just took another strategy
We just wanted to to test if it works for bitcoin lyrics you because bitcoin itself is like a
Um, it's an open community and also we are we are not like, um
You know jumping to the market is all nothing. We do publish our yellow paper
Last week it takes months for our researchers to do that part
You just can just verify all those concepts that we mentioned algorithm that we mentioned in the yellow paper
It's not like being really
Uh, it really is stuff we spend a couple of months on doing that
Pretty sad that because we are not you know
Um quite a lot of tokens will be just sent a total amount of a hundred
Started in 700 tokens to market makers. That's all about it. And um
There's no plan to sell more more tokens
So so it's so yeah, go ahead mac
Yeah, so I just want to add to that there is a lot of claims on 10 million 20 million
But the team is gonna publish uh, the team is gonna publish after this this space. They're gonna publish all the wallets
Basically, they want wallets that were sent to market maker. It's
189,000 mark 189,000 tokens. So less than two million dollars worth of tokens
and like mark said it's one and a half years of runway and they will publish all the wallets so
You know bob maps and reggaei and all those people can basically track it down and confirm it
Well, I think uh as for the raising and basically me structuring the round helping uh satosh cvm structure the bootstrapping round
The reason why I didn't want vcs and raise a big round. I told them this
Vcs for the most part offer no value
There is only a couple of vcs in the crypto space that can really offer you value either in development
basically developers auditing or for example, there's only a few
Handful vcs that can really help you with exchanges and i've been in this space so long
I know I know vcs for the most part
Just just fucking useless and money is very easy to combine this space
So when we selected people for the bootstrapping round
It was who can offer the most value who has the most confidence in the project and who wants to support it long term
That was the picking criteria. So it's not about okay
Let's raise 10 million dollars from random pools and random vcs like no, it doesn't work, you know
So so I want to I want to go to bubble
I want to go to bubble on this one that evan will go to you afterwards
I see tom tom's the vc kyle's the vc evan's the vc i'm a vc coach
Okay, there's a few yago as well. So there's a few vcs on stage
I will go to bubble and yago to kind of respond to these points and maybe they've got their own questions, but to to kind of
Discuss the the two two sides to the to the debate here
So kyle and evan the point you're making is that
Raising money privately from vcs and having a long lockup period is the right way to do it
It's the right way to raise capital
Raising a very small amount of money letting it pump and then selling on the retail audience and and the argument that you guys made
Like we prefer my so mario might take a correction on that is as actually what we're proposing
And that's it's all what i've made two weeks ago on the paid video
Was that actually we reduce?
We look at more like 2017 models is what i'm kind of now thinking
It's like the right model where there was very little money raised from private sell vcs. Um, typically which is which is which is what?
But but the public sales in 2017 were like 10 20 30 40 50 million dollars and a lot and a lot of that was scam
But they didn't need the money, right? They had no intention, but
That's where your raise should go. You should raise some money from vcs to get your product done
And then to get your runway for the next four years wherever
Figure out what the best case treasury looks like and sell that to the public at a fair valuation
None of these bullshit ultra low market cap valuations like like have confidence in your fucking projects
You know that it's going to succeed and everyone else that's investing in the public
Should have the same confidence. We're all we're all investing taking a risk here
But at least you're giving them opportunity at the the last chance before it's publicly traded to invest in that opportunity
It's a public sale, right? Don't like like
I'm like really hate when these projects
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go ahead at the end. Let's talk about mac jumping
I think like I said, I stand by my word that most of the vcs are useless and I I swear to this by every project
Right now the team actually has received offers
Uh of vcs wanting to buy at this evaluation and be locked up for four years
So I don't see any you know
They don't the team doesn't need to sell more tokens like the team like mark said just now
But there are really there are real offers from decent vcs right now that want to come in at this evaluation and be locked up
If you look around there is all those layer 2s, they have no communities they have no fucking users
There is nobody on those chains what we try to do here. It's a different model
I think from the top of my head maybe blast from the recent ones that did something
Where they did it basically with the points. They got people on the chain and they locked them there
You know just innovative concepts where you can build the community from the beginning from the from the zero instead of vcs
All right to interrupt mark, um
Just uh, just to give you guys more background we actually
We are the lp who provided
certain 20 token the credit to the uniswap
Just want to add this information mark. Just go on. Sorry. No, I'll go to guys what i'm going to do
Is i'm going to bubble then. Yeah, I'll go bubble
Tom will got you in a bit as well. Um bubble
Um, if you could do what rug ai did earlier
Um, just kind of give an overview on the both sides of the argument
He kyle and evan on one side and and mac and mark's response to it and then your thoughts
Um on the back and forth and just for the audience as well
There's two ways i'm looking at how the audience is responded because at the end of the day is the users and the investors that matter
So we are going through the comments
And obviously we're watching the token price respond to what's being said here
And just kind of get an idea of what the audience thinks but bubble go ahead
Of course. Yeah, thank you mario for for having us. I hope you can hear me. Okay
So, um with bubble maps we've been following this conversation since the very beginning
With bubbles, you can essentially track the distribution of the token asavm and honestly was super interesting because you would see
Every bit of action that happened from the very beginning the very launch to the distribution that it is today
And let me start by saying that
Credit for the savm team because they did everything on chain
Right, they could have decided to go on a centralized exchange
Hide all this information, which is what is usually done
for most tokens, they go on a centralized exchange
And you just lose all the information. You don't see anything. But here because everything happened on chain on decentralized exchanges
It opened up the room for more criticism
But at the end of the day it led to some debates and conversation which I think is very healthy
so that's the first point then second
regarding the at first there was a lot of debates around like influencers because
250 influencers was a huge amount
And they got a lot of heat those influencers like why are you promoting this token? It is dodgy, etc
I think as it has been mentioned by kyle
The problem is more so most of the tokenomics itself because it was
Promoting pushing for early sales when you have influencers who are
receiving a lot of tokens without cliff so directly with tge
And because of this the savm team announced that they were prolonging
Making longer the lockup period which I think is a good move, but it came out a bit late, right?
Finally, I think also something something I want to add it's
The eight terminal ideal. I know they're not here and I don't want to slander the name or anything, but
Initially it was supposed to be a hundred winners
And a hundred winner is already quite a small amount
If you consider the fact that there was 250 influencers, so a hundred winner is pretty pretty small
But in reality on chain data has proven
Very easy to see on chain that only 10 wallets
Received the the tokens, right? So starting from a hundred wallets, which was already small now down to 10 wallets
And eventually we found out that those 10 wallets
Are very connected like they received funds from mxc at the same time
But more so the thing that bothers me the most
Is the fact that we have found evidence that one of these wallets is very very related
To the ceo of eight terminal
Now I don't want to jump into this story in depth because we are still looking at it and we have a threat coming up
But it doesn't look doesn't look super good
So just so if you said bubble you've made a lot of points and and kind of it aligns with
Rug ai and before going to yago rug ai on a back and forth between you and bubble
Because you guys again don't have a horse in this game and and
This is what you specialize in
So the first point you've mentioned bubble is that you're concerned your your credit to satoshi vm in doing everything on chain
Number two you you're critical of the the influence the strategy. I think influencers got
A very small allocation. But again at a very very small market cap fdv as well
And they got 50 percent unlocked instantly
And then the other 50 was going to be unlocked over a period of time and that other lock-up and correct me if i'm wrong
but that other lock-up was
Either because of the backlash or or the price action that happened afterwards, which is relatively common
Um, so that was a point of criticism that you had which is fair
But again, everything was on chain. So at least transparency was there
But your main point of criticism was similar to rug ai
A terminal the second terminal that did the per second public sale and it aligns with max
Claims and that's a great. We have lawyer coming up who's a lawyer i'm gonna get his thoughts on this
I think it's a great time to come up lawyer, but the max claims after his mysterious dinner that ape terminal
Potentially and again, they're not on stage even though they were invited
And you've got a thread coming out that talks about ape terminals winners, which are a hundred winners
Less than half of the amount of influence is already very small that won the token allocation
Out of those hundred winners only 10 wallets received the tokens and those 10 wallets were all the the the
The they were all interconnected
I want you to explain how you found out they were interconnected without getting too technical and one of them was
Adleged or you said very related to the ape terminal ceo
I'm gonna add the word allegedly for you and you're gonna be putting out a thread
Is that a fair summary of what you found out?
That's a very that's a very first summary and let me add on the last point which is to me the most important
So 10 wallets received the idea only 10
They received 10 times more
That than what they should have received if there was a hundred wallets because now there's 10 less time
Less than uh time the wallets
Um, so that already is weird, but and how much how much was that? How much was that worth?
It was 15k a cvm, which is roughly
Okay, so so that was so the the 100 winners were meant to so that 150k each which is 1.5 million
And that was meant to be distributed across 100 when is what you're saying that 1.5 million was distributed across only 10 winners, correct?
Absolutely. So it was supposed to be 100 but only 10 received the 1.5 million, which is 150k dollars each
Okay, and you're continuing go ahead
So out of the 10 wallets we found out that five five or six of them were funded by mxc at the exact same time
I think it was in december 2023
Around midnight. So all of them were funded by this at the same time on it of ethereum. I mean gas fee
Um, mxt distributed, but I don't want to guess who mxt is. Uh, so you can know who it is, but are you talking about
Absolutely. They were funded through a centralized exchange, which is a very common way to fund a wallet if you want to find your products
Okay. Okay. I understand. Yep
Mxt doesn't ask for uh, kyc
So that that's so everyone just to the audience. I think everyone who wants to do this stuff like set up wallets without um,
Any trackability use mxt?
Okay, that's hold on. They still don't do the kyc
They haven't changed since the last
So that's if you ever want to like fund a wallet anonymously
You just send some money into mxt and then just immediately withdraw it to a new wallet
Okay, bubble go ahead. Okay, so that's five, uh, and there are two wallets two wallets that it's even worse because one of them
Uh is a former insider of the of dow maker
And the ceo of a terminal is a former co-founder of dow maker
I don't want to get into the specifics now because this is like high level politics
uh, but it is for sure in this wallet was involved in dow maker and it has too many privileges not to be
A former of the team of diamond of dow maker
So we we are very confident bubble. It's public. It's already being written about that. It was hot too. That's the ceo
The ceo of of ape. So why not say it?
No, no, but he's he I think he he said that the the the ceo of ape was x dow maker
But what bubble is saying is that what two of the wallets were linked
To the ceo and and someone else from dow maker. I think this is the the claim that bubble is making
Which I want rugs thoughts on it and appreciate being patient yago
Um bubble is that is that correct?
So we know I mean it's public information that the ceo of ape terminal was a co-founder of dow maker
My point is with this it's one of the wallets that received the 10 allocations for the idea
So imagine the ceo of a terminal being one of the winner of the idea of aper of asavm on a terminal
That's that's the issue here
Okay, and coach kse he disagrees with you
So after yago i'll go to coach k before tom rugai is a lot of claims he made by bubble
Um and kind of getting into the weeds of it
Is there something that is there any results on your end that don't align with what bubble said?
Maybe you've got more context that you can offer as well
So what bubble said is exactly correct and it's something that we've noted too something that I think we can add to this conversation
Is part of our analysis we're able to calculate pnl on certain wallets at different times
And the five wallets that they've mentioned, uh, which we've also mentioned the fact that they were funded by mexie
The five wallets made a total of nine hundred and thirty six thousand dollars in realized pnl
So that's pnl that they've immediately sold and they roughly have about half a million depending on the token price of sabm
In in unrealized pnl. So across all those five wallets. There's enough motive there to
You know conclusively say that that's a that's a lot of money to to take from the idea
And would you guys say just because I know we are talking about satoshi vm here. Is it fair to say that?
The satoshi vm would be the victim of this and they would not be involved in this in any way
According to both you guys. Is that a fair statement or it's too early to make? I think that's entirely fair
Yeah, I think I would agree as well. Mario
Okay, and the claim by by ape that mac and his friends were involved in this
Um, what would be your your stance on that one?
Sorry, sorry, man. I'll be brief. But yeah, I would say
Given the amount that were sniped. I would doubt this is mike
We've seen actually two big snipers one that managed to make a profit of 10 million
So that's quite a significant amount with 12 percent of the supply and the other that made 5 million at launch
Uh with uh 5 percent of the supply as well. I don't think this is this is mike from what we've seen on chain
Yago, I um, and and coach k disagrees with this so yago if you've got a comment to make
But but but it wasn't it wasn't
Just just because like i've been involved in so many launches and
nobody knows the contract address until the token the lp is added because if you
The problem is if you leak the contract address to the public before lp is added to a centralized exchange
Someone can go fuck you on the decks and they can add liquidity like before the team has a chance to so everyone keeps this
Private until the token is actually trading. So somebody from inside it was an advisor. It was it was eight someone
I just want to make that clear. You don't understand
It was public on the bounce ideo on the page when the token is being ideoed the token contract public and it's public
It's all public info. Yeah
All this is public before you actually deploy this security that's how municipal works
Yeah, yeah fair fair fair. Okay. So yago. I know you're just jumping in on that one. I see a lot of hands up
Invested in and most importantly promoted to the public this project
So I assume that you did your technical due diligence and made sure that this was a technically sound project, correct?
Yes, okay. So I have a question for you
I have a very simple question
On the website. It says that they are building a zk rollup. Now. There are three kinds of rollup. There's zk rollup
There's validity or sovereign rollup and there's an optimistic rollup
Which type of rollup or satoshi VM building?
Yeah, so to be honest, we actually posed tactical threats about like a week ago
Um, we tell the public that
You know building from the most fundamental theory is it's pretty hard
And our team they researched for for for months and we found beat VM
There is a fairly new idea when about how you are actually building those layer two on vehicle because it's like totally new
When you compare sure i'm very familiar with bit VM i've contributed to bit VM of the three kinds of rollup
Are you building a zk rollup an optimistic rollup or a validity or sovereign rollup?
All right, it's zk rollup, but just to turn okay. Thank you. So mario. We can end the debate here
This is a fraud and to scam zk rollup is impossible on bitcoin
Zk rollup is not possible
And i've gone through their documents. I've gone through the yellow paper i've gone through the white paper. I've gone through the um,
Uh, let me finish please i've gone through mark. I'll let you respond. Don't I?
I've gone through the website and it's a mishmash of buzzwords and different kinds of descriptions of rollups
Pieces grabbed from different papers, which i'm familiar with because I work on this stuff
But it was very difficult for me to figure out how I was going to ask a simple question
Which would reveal in a very clear way whether or not they knew what they were talking about and whether or not
This was a real project and then I realized it's very simple. There's three kinds of rollups
It's basic stuff. Anyone who's doing anything with rollups knows that there's three kinds of rollups
And anyone who's doing anything with bitcoin rollups knows that number one the zk rollup is impossible with bitcoin
And here they have on their website and here once again in this call
That that's what they're doing. So so so mark
I'll let you respond to yago's point and i'll go to coach k afterwards to kind of go back to the
Ape launch, but I think yago's criticism is a separate yet technical point that I think is important to respond to
Yes, um guys, it's you know, it's a fairly new concept when you're just trying to
uh implement zero logic on bitcoin and it's been it's been pretty hard because people are just
It's just thinking about how to apply
zkp on ethereum when we are just to find a new way to do this stuff on bitcoin
I know it's going to be pretty hard just to answer to to understand about concept behind this but
First I know bwm the concept the proposed is just pretty hard to achieve
But there is actually github is called captive circuits. They propose a workable way to realize their yeah
That was done by ted by super testnet who's a friend of mine
And he's nowhere near he the guy who invented what you're talking about is nowhere near
Building what you're claiming he's building. In fact, he knows that a zk relop is impossible with his own technology
Is an optimistic bridge which doesn't provide a relop
It just allows you to have a bridge for bitcoin. So you've read a paper
You've taken the the buzzwords from his paper and you're claiming to understand the technology
When in fact the person who's a friend of mine who wrote the paper knows that what you're describing is impossible
No, yargo, um, we didn't like this copy paste this stuff
We we rightly state in the first sentence in our paper that we actually proposed an enhanced master based on captive circuits
Scheme proposed by captive circuits. It actually involves at least a full transaction full-temperature transaction to verify those
function executions on big verify what
Right. So a zk relop means that you're able to introduce
A proof a zk proof into in this case bitcoin, which can be verified by the miners
But there is no up code in bitcoin
Yes, so that so that reason we are trying to propose a standard
Uh frame that people can just apply those to verify layer to blockchain
Um transaction because in the original paper that we proposed we just want to state out just want to prove that
but if we reduce the number of transactions which proposed by the
tablet circuits into two transactions and they can be proved following the
Uh for knowledge good pattern
Yeah, and if yes, but what you're describing is a situation what you're describing is at best
situation where you can have an optimistic proof because the way that bit I let him I let him
Yeah, I let you I let him just finish your sentence
I let you just I promise you because I want that I want it to be just a fair back and forth because I know a
Lot of a lot of token holders a lot of community members are listening to this back and forth and it is very technical
Um, so so mark I let you finish your response and then y'all could respond back because i'm looking at the comments and and
The discussions and the groups and people are paying a lot of attention to this back and forth. So go ahead mark
Please finish your response
And mark are you there just gotta unmute bottom left corner. Yeah. Thank you
Yes, I I mean we're not going to talk about more technical power on this stage because
We're not claiming that we haven't finished that we are on the test testnet stage and we've been keeping talking about our committee members that will be
improving our system and trying to realize the
Zk rob a proposal on paper. We are not lying nice to say that we have already achieved that we never see this
It takes time. You're not even in the right direction you
Fundamentally misunderstand the words and the technology that you're dealing with first of all, you don't have
Open source code why because maybe you don't have code or you don't want people to see your code second
You put out a yellow paper, which makes no sense
And you didn't give anyone time to review it before you immediately went to the public who can't understand it
And sold it to them for money and third what you're saying makes no sense
Bitvm at best can be used to create an optimistic bridge not a roll-up and
Definitely not a zk roll-up. You are saying things
You're saying to someone who is blind that the sky is purple
They don't know to contradict you because they don't have the the the tools. They don't have the eyes to see
But anyone with any technical proficiency knows that what you're saying is you're talking about a round triangle
It makes no sense. Those are words you can talk together. There's no meaning
So mark, I'll let you final response and then we'll go back to the back and forth regarding ape the ape launchpad and what happened there
But just a final response to yago and I know it's a very, you know
It's very technical for the audience to understand so yago's claim is from a technical perspective
It's either impossible or just way too early for this to happen. And what your claim is is that we understand it's too early
Um, and we're trying to do something that is
You know very difficult and we we're not there yet
Is that a fair summary of the back and forth mark? Did I miss it in any way that I misrepresent it in any way?
Okay, and we'll we'll do if you're open to it guys
We could you know, you guys can have that back and forth a technical back and forth
on the stage in the future, but
Yago for kind of pointing this out and mark for responding. I do want to go back to the ape terminal saga coach
Okay, I saw you give a thumbs down when bubble and when bubble was speaking was that disagreeing with bubbles claimed that ape terminal?
Um and the ceo were behind
The the tokens that were distributed and tom will go to you afterwards and evan or were you agreeing with bubbles claims?
Yeah, no, it wasn't actually to go against it. I was just putting my thumbs down because it's terrible what what I was seeing
Um, but there are two things that I want to talk about
The first thing is we talked about like vcs and how they don't add value
But vcs do detail due diligence and and most klls that I know that i'm friends with
They're pretty much aping into stuff. They don't do due diligence
They don't look into see any of the technical stuff and they don't know what's a good project from a bad project from a technical level
And that's why vcs exist because they actually do the due diligence
And so not all of them obviously but most of them are much stronger in due diligence and do much deeper dives into projects
So they would be able to not see they wouldn't see what yag was talking about and that's the reality
Uh, and that's probably why they went and did the raise from people that are not high level vcs, right?
And because they're they're would not get the money from them. Um, so yeah, you're right. Yes. Okay, you can get
Um, you know a bunch of klls and come in they know they're gonna make money because they're gonna push it together
Um, then they're gonna plan to dump it on on everybody else as well
It's not really ethical. I guess in my perspective of saying yeah, vcs add no value
Vcs add a ton of value because they do due diligence
If you've been in this space as long as I have and you've worked with a lot of the klls
You know that like they just pretty much fomo into everything the same way as retail do
Um, they just have a benefit of being in there first
So there's that point the other point I want to bring up is yagoo was talking about the technical papers
Uh, I don't know if you guys saw this but online someone took
Um the the paper that was written by satoshi bm
And ran it through a chat gpt. Uh simulator and found out that 99 of the whole entire fucking paper was written on chat gpt
So I don't believe they actually took the time and did the real work
To write an actual technical paper. I think there's a lot of bs going on over there
And I don't think either side is 100 clear, uh and done any everything, right?
But I just wanted to give those points of view because I think they're really important for us to have here
I think okay, so there's a lot of important points, you know, I want to just do something mark and mark
The reason I want to jump in is twofold. Number one is just there's a lot of people listening to the space and i'm
um, i'm watching this for example when when bubble and
Where and i'm i'm going to talk about this because it's important and and we have some sort of we have a responsibility here when bubble
explaining how satoshi bm were the victim and to an extent mac was a victim as well
Of uh, what allegedly ape the ape launch pad or terminal did with a token launch
Um, the community was responding very positively the token recovered pretty well
And there's a reason i'm mentioning this and then when yago came in and made those and yago is a regular on our crypto town hall
And very technical very well respected in the space when he made those claims and went back and forth with satoshi bm
And mentioned those concerns that he had which a lot of people don't understand because it is very technical
Um, the audience got a bit worried the token dropped by 16 percent in in what five ten minutes
It just shows that what we're saying here. We we have to be very careful for everyone on stage
And i'm trying to make sure that both sides cover each point
Just because there's a lot of investors being impacted a lot of people in the community being impacted
Um coach case points obviously they're very important points on the chat gpt one
I don't know what people what tool people use on on whether chat gpt copied something
I just don't I don't know how credible it is because I know that
Um a while ago people use chat gpt to say some tool to say that how we use chat gpt to write 99 percent of our tweets
And we never use chat gpt not even to proofread our tweets or some people use chat gpt to only proofread
Something and and they wrote but just to proofread it or to fix the grammar
And then the tool says hey, they use chat gpt to write it. Um, so i'm not sure how accurate that tool is
Um, but mark i'll let you respond to coach case points
And then I do want to go to tom
Um who probably will comment on the initial claims regarding the ape launchpad, but but mark
I want you to respond to everything openly just because it is pretty important. But from what i'm seeing is
You were a victim of the launch
There's two sides to the argument on whether the launch was fair or not and whether the way you went about it is fair
On one side you were very transparent with everything and the other you launched at a very low market gap to let it pump and create
And and that back and forth that happened and obviously there's yago's technical concerns as well
So I think it's it to be important just for the audience for your investors and for your community
To kind of let you respond to all of them considering your you know, your project
Um is openly having this debate which I think is respectable no matter what people think of the points being made. Go ahead mark
Yeah, I just want to make my final statement
The accountant in the paper. I just did totally
craft practically by myself we we didn't use any ideas from chat bt because
Chat bt the database of chat bt is just out of days. You cannot have this new concept to have chat bt to write to
The only the only stage that we use chat bt is because we use chat bt to format
The sentence we didn't chase we didn't chase people. We didn't just copy paste ideas from chat bt
They just cannot chat bt just cannot have
Um ability to write all this stuff
I would I would I would I would agree with this for second just for the record
I have immense respect for coach k we work with coach k and he knows what he's talking about
Um on that particular point just because i've been the victim of it as well
So as far as I know chat gpt doesn't have the technicality to write those papers
But a lot of people use it for formatting or for grammatical
Mistakes and that's where tools will will claim that is that chat gpt was used. I know you're not making that claim yourself coach
You saw it someone else made it. Um mark on the point. I know you've covered it as well if you could
Um respond to yago's points again without getting too technical and maybe in that response
I don't know anything about you guys who you are etc
Who from the team is docked their identity is known and maybe a bit about your experience as well
to kind of give confidence for the users
Um on your platform and I think evan has a particular point also to make on that along with tom
So maybe you could respond to evan and tom
Um before because I know you're making your final statement
I think it's going to be important to respond to them because they're going to have very important points that
That um, you should respond to but um mark i'd let you respond
By also talking about your team and your experience
I'm sorry, we we cannot just dispel the real identities of team right now because in essence
The blockchain is not about your identity but about your kills your protocols your protective show to the community
No worries. And is there any information without really without revealing the identity and again that's coming from me as an outsider doesn't know much
Is there any information, you know, there's either pseudo anonymous identities where
The real world identity is not known
But someone could look at their wallet or could look at their history and know that they've had experience in a certain
Area is any projects you've launched any
Any github depositries that you guys have shared to kind of give us an idea of your experience
Yeah, i'm sorry i'm allowed to i'm not allowed to disclose the real identity of the
Accident the only thing you're able to disclose are your marketing claims in order to raise capital
And that to me doesn't seem fair to the people that you're raising capital from
So I want to go to to evan had a specific point that he dropped out bring him back up
Tom there was a bit of back and forth. I think it was was unexpected, but the audience found it very important
um between yago and mark from satoshi vm
And of course, there's the claims that were made earlier by bubble and rugai which both of them agreed that satoshi vm is a victim
And so is mac allegedly and ape the ape terminal is the one most likely responsible
So there's a lot of points being made. We'd love your response and then i'll go to evan who's back up
Sure. Sure. So work with a lot of the folks on stage to invest
And I feel like i'm sort of in the audience on jerry springer right now. That was a fantastic back and forth
So hopefully I was certainly entertained. I just want to circle back on the vc point, right?
In this in this sort of nice environment where we have liquidity almost immediately for a lot of these tokens
You don't see that in traditional markets. You have long-term investors and then you have traders
This product was set up for traders for liquidity
The whole reason there are lockups and there are venture investors who do longer term due diligence
Is to understand a lot of the points that yago made because you can't understand those points if you're just hoping for a quick
So, you know vcs get a bad rap in the space, you know, rightfully so there are a lot of vcs who don't bring value
But even if you're getting a high level vc in your cap table, you bring a lot of things just without um, sort of doing day to day
Uh work with the project right you bring signaling you bring long-term capital you bring institutional credibility
And in addition you bring the real tangible value of having a vc on board
Actually is a criteria for listing on major exchanges and launch pads. So
All of those things are really important that vcs bring to the table and not to mention the connections the market makers and all that stuff
Right. So you need vcs you need kol you need both
But you need to make sure long term that the project's actually set up for success rather than like hey
We're going to get 100x and then we're going to all dump and then we're going to forget about this project and in a little while
Deviated from the broader point there, but just I think it's a fair
But i'm gonna highlight i'm gonna highlight that point and mark appreciate being on stage
I think evan's point afterwards is the one I really want you to respond to and i'm going to give you a bit of a
But just some advice because i've done a lot of these spaces and I know the importance and the impact of them
But first on your point tom
Yes, I think there's a lot of value that vcs bring us coming from a vc
So take my bias into perspective
But the model needs to be structured the right way as kyle has said so having big unlocks for vcs at the beginning
We don't mind we love we encourage lockup periods
Um along with with finding the right vc that brings value for example us as a vc
We've got anti-media landscape got partnership with vcs
Our show kyle has got his show. He's got his launchpad
So some vcs that bring coach k has got his reach evan as well
So vcs that bring value and others that just put in the money even ones that only put in the capital
They don't need to have a big platform like us, but they can bring in the value from an advisory perspective
You know as a project a lot of things you don't know
And cryptos are very small communities
So finding the right vcs brings a lot of value as long as lockup periods are there
But that doesn't mean i'm against the structure that satoshi vm has done. Um, as long as transparency is there
I'm not saying i'm for it. I'm saying i'm pretty open-minded for launches without a vc joe
I'm gonna go to you in a bit evan. Um, is there before you go evan?
Because I know you're gonna make it a point simply
It's related to what yago said I do want to encourage mark
Because I know you came here to address the the launch and I think that was addressed really well
And the the audience the the community the investors responded very positively to it
But then there's the concerns that yago brought that evan wants to comment on i'm not sure what his stance is
And that is now the focus of the community, which is very fair
And I think what I recommend after this because there's only so much you could respond in this space
Um, especially when it starts getting technical is putting out a thread
You know addressing yago's concerns and explaining your road map and yago
What I recommend is quote tweeting it and going back and forth
I think twitter is a great transparent way to go back and forth
And maybe you guys agree to disagree or you know, maybe you kind of find some sort of middle ground
Um, but I think the technicalities of the projects we've moved on from the launch
And and now we're moving into the product which I think is a positive step
And a good debate to have and not one that we're planning to have but evan
You've heard the back and forth that yago and mark have had um, and you wanted to comment on it
Yes, so, uh, i'm just i'm just coming through and uh, this is da Vinci
He just he was here for the space. He just left. He actually I so i'm a i'm a kol investor
I actually depend on the vcs and i'm grateful for them to do the due diligence that they do
When it comes to projects like like coach said kols don't do the due diligence
Uh, but what I was coming da Vinci said that he read your white paper in detail
And what he basically said was all the btc being bridged meant to be bridged over to satoshi
Is in control of an individual in the team and here you're saying you can't reveal who the contributors are
We don't know who the team is and all this bitcoin is being meant to be bridged over to the layer to that you control
So it's similar to be using a sex and we all know with crypto not your keys not your crypto
So I think that's a huge red flag here
That we also need to talk about and I think the team should need to tell us
What happens when people are actually bridging their bitcoin over you control that bitcoin
And what is to prevent anybody from you just rocking all that bitcoin that is being bridged over to your layer too?
If that exists because i'm not a technical guy i'm just coming in what the
industry is much more technical
He said that before he jumped off
I'm just bringing up the point because I think it's very important for the community to know that
The bdc that you're bridging over to satoshi Vm is not your bdc anymore
It's similar to using the ftx or a binance where you're giving your bitcoin to somebody else
So satoshi Vm mark, um, you don't want to respond to this point again mark
We've now moved on from the fight around the launch
I think we've all put that behind us now and we're focusing on the product itself
Um, which I know you weren't expecting again. I appreciate doing this on a space
Transparently and would love you to respond to evan's point there
And then maybe get lawyers thoughts quickly on the legalities of the launch and what his thoughts is as a lawyer on the back and forth
Yago's final points with you mark, and then we could wrap up the space but uh mark
I'd let you respond to evan's concern or
DaVinci's concern that evan echoed
You gotta unmute bottom left corner there you go. Thanks mark
Yes, um, just in response to the market, maybe you'll
Review all the transparens of our wallet dresses just after this space
Yeah, and yeah, I appreciate that and and I think that one most people agreed i'm going through the community and just a response from the investors
Um, I've literally got the chat the twitter chat open that the price chat opens. I kind of measure the people's response from those two things
And um, the response was positive on that front the transparency there was good and only bridging point of failure that evan and daVinci
I mentioned if you'd want to respond to that one
I don't know, uh, but we are actually designing an escape and which is locked by temnoscopes but to rest of design that's uh, specific functionality
Um, yago any uh before I go to lawyer then and we're going to wrap up the space afterwards. Yeah. Thank you
Look roll up some and yago actually can I say i'm gonna ask you a specific question as well
Because you've expressed your concerns very passionately
What would you obviously mention the point you want to mention?
But then the next point I have is what would you like to see from the satoshi vm team?
Ease up your concern or potentially even change your mind on their project. What would you say they need to do?
Um, that would uh, that would make you
From their team what I would like to see is vastly more transparency
What we should see is code if they're already on testnet
There's no reason that their code for that testnet not be available and at minimum
There should be a white paper or a technical description that makes sense and I get why they're doing this
Bitcoin roll-ups are almost here. It's going to be the biggest thing that hits crypto
Maybe since ethereum it changes everything. It means that bitcoin can do
Anything so of course there's a whole lot of hype around it and projects want to try and ride that hype
But they're real projects out there like sovereign like chainway like alpin labs who are actually building this
The people who are interested in what satoshi vm say that they're doing should take a look at those projects
So if anyone wants they can follow me because after this conversation
I've decided i'm going to be putting out a thread on the real stuff that is being done and how close we are
To completely changing the way that bitcoin works in terms of scalability on that
So yago what you'd like to see transparency in them releasing the code
And a white paper with all the technicalities on how they they plan to achieve what they want to achieve
And then satoshi vm i see card you unmuted i'll go to you as we wrap up but satoshi vm the question i have to use
Would you be open to releasing the code and releasing a white paper with
The the technicalities on how you plan to achieve what you're promising to achieve
Is that something you're open to do and is there a time frame in mind i'm not putting you on the spot and again
I respect you guys doing that all live on a space with whatever how many people eight for jesus eight thousand two hundred people
Okay, perfect. So if you guys do that, I think the audience will respond really well
Um and yago i'd love to see your response on this and hit me up in the dm zone your thoughts after you go through
It um i'd love to see a happy ending to this and there's two happy endings either
They release it's all transparent yago. You're like impressed
They know what they're talking about this is actually possible even if you don't believe it's they're gonna achieve it
But at least a possibility or a certain likelihood is is it is it is a very positive thing or your response will be like this
The best thing that I could see from this is that they actually can deliver what they're saying
Because that would be magic that we're all waiting for
I know it's not technically possible
So if they can do magic they would blow everyone's mind and they should and i'm happy and i'm happy to connect you i'm happy
I've got both of you guys in the dm's i'm happy to connect
Do not trust anon profiles do not bridge your bitcoin over to somebody else hold your keys hold your crypto
There's been the biggest lesson since the last bull run not your keys not your crypto
So do nothing when the magic actually happens until the magic happens, you know willingly go and give your bitcoin to other people
Go ahead mac. I just want to say I just want to say thank you and uh, yeah
Perfect carl. I think we're gonna wrap it up. I think they went way over time in in the space
Um, and now you want to bring up another guy car
Yeah, so so so i'm i'm gonna i'm gonna run another space right now on my account
So yago, if you want to come over max from bitfinity
From stoshi. Vm. Um, I would invite you guys to all come join, please
All the whole audience who wants to continue to dive in on the title side of things
I don't they don't that spoke to them. I can't good. I can't if you schedule with me i'd be happy to right now
I I have to jump yeah, and I I and also
Yeah, it's stoshi. Vm team have a flight as well. So that's why we're in this place
But I do want to I do want to make sense. So good, but happy happy happy to schedule happy to schedule
Happy to schedule. I think we can continue to it's important. Yeah, very important
I think so and I think putting out a thread satoshi. Vm and yago talking in the dm is very important
Um, but I do want to just first applaud the project for coming on stage and having this discussion transparently
You could have guys you could have done your own ama
Um decided who comes up on stage and made it made it into an echo chamber
But you guys brought people that were criticizing you that were asking the tough questions and you answered them all
So I want to applaud you on this and I think you've achieved your objective
Even though it got a bit tough and rightly so with yago evan and and da Vinci's concerns
And that a lot of people wanted to learn more about even though it's very technical
So you've moved from the fud around the launch to discussing the product. So it's a great step in the right direction
Um is obviously needed and i'm sure a lot of vcs are asking for that
And um would love to see a back and forth between you and yago on on twitter
And then when you both are ready and would love to do a space on that as well
But I want to give the final word to mac and mark
The people that did come on stage to talk about this transparently guys final quick word and then
I'll be wrapping this one up and jumping on crypto town hall with ran and scott in about 10 minutes
30 seconds before you before you end it mario. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. Go ahead mark. Go ahead
Cool. Uh, thank you mario for setting this up on such a short time frame and uh, yeah, it's a lot better to do this this way than
Um a lot more transparent than having our own ama. So and and mac and mac
No, no more emotional tweets after this one
I'll make sure i'll make sure to sleep now. So it's good
Um, I get some rest mark any final words, um mark from satoshi vm
Yeah, thank you guys for for for this. Um
Space because we do have some
Information around the market and just we have the opportunity to state all about that
Um, just deliver all the transparents about our wallets just after the space. Yeah, we will we'll announce that
Perfect cool. Everyone could follow them check them out. I appreciate that. Oh you wanted 30 seconds kyle
Yeah, one thing that we didn't cover
Um, which I think is back to the launchpad side of things is really important is like how do we fix this problem going forward?
Right and that this is what you know
I spent two years thinking about because I identified this product this problem exactly in the tail end of the last bull market
That's why we shut down launches. That's why we reformatted everything and if you guys haven't seen my video
Like the next evolution of launchpads and you guys will understand
Why a lot of these things that happen on ape terminal become less significant in a format like we're building
Um, so I think that like either something that we're doing or but but balance is doing are good ways to do it
Um, you know moving forward people need to be very very cautious about these ultra low marketing apps
But but in the next one, hopefully we'll dig into it
If we don't do it on the the technical one about satoshi vm
Then I'll host one but um, but I think that's that's another issue that we haven't addressed as how to fix this problem going forward
So other people don't get caught in the same situation
Cool. I appreciate everyone jumping in. I mean, I hope we did a good job in trying to keep it as balanced as possible
I appreciate the co-host joe and kyle for helping out for all the speakers coming on
All the best is satoshi vm. Hopefully you guys get you know, do you take the feedback and act on it?
And um, you know, uh, good luck moving forward
Appreciate the audience and we'll see you all in a few minutes on the crypto town hall with ryan and scott
So probably get their thoughts on the on the discussion yaga if you want to jump in there for a few minutes
If you if you want and give us some thoughts or anyone else. Bye everyone. Thanks. Thanks guys. Bye. Bye