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sBTC Uncapped: Let Bitcoin Flow
Recorded: Sept. 16, 2025 Duration: 0:51:16Space Recording
Short Summary
The recent discussion on SBTC's uncapping marks a pivotal moment for the Stacks ecosystem, with over 5,000 Bitcoin now actively participating in yield-generating activities. This shift towards Bitcoin as a productive asset is underscored by rising dominance and innovative integrations, setting the stage for significant growth and user engagement in the coming year.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, everybody.
Good day.
Good morning.
Good evening.
Wherever you may be tuning in for around the world, we are very excited to welcome you to another Spaces here within the
Stacks ecosystem to talk about a very big milestone that we are celebrating today and also something
pretty foundational for the greater Bitcoin ecosystem. And for those who are not aware,
we're going to cover all the news and what this all means, but we're talking about SBTC and a big milestone that we've crossed nine months, just about
since the launch of SBTC last December, the 17th, back in 2024.
But before we get started, first and foremost, if you're new here, welcome.
I'm your host, Kyle Ellicott.
Very excited to have each and every one of you join us.
But one thing, today's discussion is for educational and informative purposes only.
Nothing discussed in today's spaces will be considered financial advice.
Please take time to do your own research.
That said, we do have a ton of speakers to come up on stage and to share with us all that's happening across both the Stacks and the greater Bitcoin ecosystems.
And how things have evolved over this year in 2025 when it comes to SBTC and more predominantly the movement into Bitcoin being a productive asset. We've seen Bitcoin dominance
across the entire industry rise to over 65% against all other projects in and across the
entire industry, levels not seen since 2021. And so we've seen a lot of the progression of not
just Bitcoin as an asset, but Bitcoin as
an ecosystem and the protocols and those building like here at Stacks and some that we'll be speaking
here in just a moment and how we're all contributing to the growth of Bitcoin, again, being much more
than a store of value and now a productive asset in many respects through applications and otherwise. That said, I want
to welcome our very first guest. Talk to us a little bit about SVTC and the uncapping,
as we'll call it. Alex Miller, welcome to the stage. Now the CEO of Stax Labs. Welcome.
Hello. Thanks for having me on today. Yeah. Thanks for joining. Thanks for joining. Alex,
Thanks for having me on today.
Yeah, thanks for joining.
Thanks for joining.
Alex, you've been a part of the SACS ecosystem for quite some time, but more importantly,
have watched this evolution of SBTC really start to unravel over the last nine months
from just an idea and concept at launch in December to what it is today with over 5,000
Bitcoin having been deposited and
minted. Maybe talk to us a little bit about what today's uncapping event really means. And then
Andre, I'm going to pull you up for some more specifics. But Alex, I just want to start with
you first. Sure. Well, maybe we shouldn't refer to it as unraveling. I feel like unraveling is
not the best context normally, but as it has unrolled, as it has come out.
Yeah, I mean, I think, as you said, like the entire like Bitcoin right problem, as I think we've called it in the ecosystem for a while,
or the idea of how you move Bitcoin in a secure way, but with more functionality and like in smart contracts without having to just like give up the private keys to
an actual Bitcoin wallet has been a really big challenge for a very, very long time. And you
see a lot of different people working on a lot of different solutions, whether that's, you know,
straight wrapped assets where you're using custodian or kind of the research and things
that are going on along the lines of BitVM. And I think Stacks has been working on SBTC now, like in total, for probably two years,
I guess, about.
And it's really exciting just to see it have all come to fruition here and to have this
asset fully live, fully uncapped.
I think it's been working great over the last nine months as we've done it.
But I think the thing that's really great over the last nine months as we've done it. But I think
the thing that's really great is the number of use cases that are opened up by having it fully
unlocked, right? I see, you know, Tycho is up here on the stage. I'm sure he can speak even better
than I, that as great as SBTC has been, there are certain use cases, especially around lending or,
you know, when we're tying to centralized exchanges about deploying it there and partnering, there's limitations to what you can do if it's not fully unlocked and people can't freely and fully move in and out.
And so taking it to the next step, making it kind of this fully launched product where anyone can come in in any quantity they want at any time is going to be, I think, really exciting for just continuing to push forward the innovation around Bitcoin.
Absolutely. I agree. And Tycho, Andre, we definitely want to get you up on stage and have you share a few thoughts as well.
Alex, I just want to continue on that last point that you made.
I mean, this is a massive change for not just Stacks, but also pushing forward the Bitcoin ecosystem.
As we start to see the uncap come off today, what is the significance that this opens up for the wider Bitcoin ecosystem
when something like SBTC can welcome in not just 1,000 or 3,000, but now well over 5,000 Bitcoin
as the tranches have no longer been put in place,
the guardrails are off, and now we're able to start seeing Bitcoin flow across the way.
And Andre, I'll bring you up here in just a second.
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is just paces of innovation, right?
I was just talking to some of the folks actually at Labs, And one of the really big things is simply
how much are you learning every day?
And the number one way to learn things
is to just get stuff out there and let people use it.
And so the thing that I think is a really big deal
anytime you have an advancement like this
and where you're reaching the next step
is just the number of people that you're enabling
to try something new.
I think one of the cool things that we've especially seen with crypto is
all of the advancements that we've really seen have a little bit come out of nowhere, right? I mean, this goes all the way back to like the original Bitcoin white paper
and Satoshi dropping it out of nowhere is people will talk about different things and,
you know, they'll theorize stuff, but what consumers
actually want to use, what businesses find value in, you really ultimately only ever find that by
building something and putting it out into the market and letting people use it and seeing what
they're doing with it. And so having, you know, more tools for people to do that with and to
experiment on so that more things are hitting
the market like that is and getting into people's hands that's the number one thing we can do and so
that's why i think like steps like this today are just a big deal for development and innovation
absolutely couldn't couldn't agree more i mean the amount of bitcoin that we've seen
over the last almost 15 months now move in
from just being a store of value, idle assets into productivity, whether that's through SBTC or other
various assets and protocols, it's been a wave of momentum. Again, going from just a few Bitcoin,
literally, to over half a percent of Bitcoin's total market cap active in throw-in and staking,
Over half a percent of Bitcoin's total market cap active in throw and in staking, you got over now 2%, so an additional 1.5% across the board in a productive manner.
I've got some other stats I'll throw out later, but nonetheless, I want to bring up Andre.
Andre, you are a part of Bitcoin L2 Labs.
Big shout out to yourself, to Adriano, to all the developers at L2 Labs and across the entire ecosystem for the efforts that you all put forward in bringing SBTC to life.
And you were an integral part of its launch back in December last year.
You have been an integral part with the team in driving SBTC forward in its development. What is the significance of today's uncapping
mean for you and the team and what you guys have been building towards a greater vision?
Yeah, sure. Well, thanks, Kyle. First of all, it's great to be here as always. And before I even
get to start answering that question, I think it's worth just shouting out
exactly all the people that have been involved in this.
Everyone from the SBDC engineering team, the business development team that's been really working, getting SBDC kind of integrated through more strategic partnerships to bring more Bitcoin into the protocol.
the protocol. A lot of people have contributed to the success, the builders in the ecosystem
obviously working tirelessly to really enable new productive use cases through SBDC has all
played a large part of it. So in terms of how this journey has been for me, it's really kind
of surreal. We first launched the protocol back in December of last year.
And so we're coming up on our one year mark over the next few months here.
And it's, you know, it's just fundamentally kind of a different market, right?
We've seen, you know, digital asset treasury companies exploding over this time. The demand for Bitcoin yield has really been, you know, it's been so clear that, you know, Bitcoin is this pristine collateral asset and people want to be able to put it to work, make it productive, earn a yield on it.
And so it really is kind of like the right place at the right time when this activity is happening.
the significance of this moment in particular, I think it's going to be significant in terms of
our ability to really reach new users and enable just the full functionality and distribution of
SBDC as a productive asset. So SBDC was rolled out in three distinct phases. So we launched
three distinct phases. So we launched initially just a 1000 Bitcoin cap in order to kind of slow
roll the launch of the protocol. There were three subsequent caps, each filled within a period of
just a few days. And the last one filled in under 24 hours, which was great. It meant that, you know,
there was a lot of clear demand to earn Bitcoin yield. But what it meant is that we haven't been able to fully start onboarding and expanding into new users and new use cases.
So the removing of the SBDC cap, the uncapping really is kind of like this next phase of growth for the protocol where we're able to really start doing more new user acquisition. It allows us to expand into more use cases where you really do need the ability to fully move in and out of the protocol in size, too.
And so it's a key part of starting to build more liquidity around the protocol and the broader Stacks network.
So, yeah, very excited about the progress to date.
And a lot has gone into
kind of getting us to where we are now.
And Andre, you mentioned size.
I know a part of this uncap,
there is also some exciting news
around the minimums
and sizing of Bitcoin
that can participate in SBTC
now that the uncap has been put out.
Can you share a little bit more about that with us as to kind of how it started to where
it is today?
Yeah, sure.
So initially, SBTC had a minimum deposit cap of 0.01 BTC.
And this was really just part of the more controlled rollout that we had for the protocol.
more controlled rollout that we had for the protocol.
With this update, we are reducing the deposit cap
by a factor of 10, so it's going to 0.001 BTC.
And part of that is just improving the user
and developer experience there.
I think we want to make SBTC more accessible
to a wider range of users and being able to just,
for developers in particular, to test the protocol
with smaller denominations of Bitcoin,
let smaller holders start to participate as well.
I think it's an important part to just continuing to prove
the user experience, improve the on-ramps and make it more accessible.
One last question for you, Andre, and then I will give you a break,
let you breathe for a little bit more.
In terms of what can be unlocked from here,
everything from new applications
or the onboarding of users,
what is your vision of how the next year
will look ahead for SBTC as the next wave of integrations begins to take advantage of
this new opportunity and the amount of Bitcoin coming in to productivity? Yes, I think this
uncapping really opens up a new set of integrations with partnerships around the industry.
Everything from onboarding new bridges to exchange listings, custodial partnerships.
Basically, by removing the SPDC cap, it will just allow us to bring in more users into the system.
And it's been clear that that has been a requirement for the type of growth that we hope to see with the system. And, you know, it's been clear that that has been a requirement
for the type of growth that,
you know, we hope to see with the protocol.
And speaking of, thank you, Andre.
Tycho, I want to come to you.
From Zest and Stacking Down perspective,
you know, yourself and Xverse
and a few others who are going to be having up on stage
were a big integral part of that initial integration set.
Talk to us about how the uncapped today,
from the beginning with caps to now the uncapped today,
will really help to empower the future integrations
that you and your teams are working on
and what this all means going forward.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Thanks very much for that layup there.
But yeah, I mean, Zest Protocol and StackingDAO
are very integral protocols to how Stacks functions.
And Zest Protocol is the protocol
that holds the most SPTC out of any protocol on Stacks.
I think about 11% of all SPTC in circulation.
I think about 11% of all SPTC in circulation, right?
So 550 SPTC is currently earning a yield on Zest protocol.
And people use their SPTC on Zest to borrow against it, right?
And then to squeeze essentially more yield out of their SPTC
because like SPTC on Zest yields about 3.5% a day.
Stablecoins like USCC, rightC to borrow cost only about three.
So you're actually getting paid to borrow.
And then move, say, into USDH where you can then earn additional yield and so on.
So Zest protocol really gives SBTC its wings, so to say.
And then StackingDAO was the first protocol to actually integrate
SBTC on a technical level by introducing Staked Stacks BTC, which is the STAX or STX
liquid staking token that yields SBTC. Because STX yields BTC when you stake it, and then when you stake your STX with StackingDAO,
you get a liquid token, Staked Stacks BTC,
that gives you SBTC to claim every couple of hours, actually.
So yeah, the uncapping thereby means that,
well, for one, it becomes much easier to borrow assets on Zest Protocol because
you're free to bring in BTC whenever you want.
I mean, that's like, I think I've struggled with personally.
Sometimes you see an opportunity like, wow, these rates are really good.
I could create this yield loop, but I can't move in my BTC, right?
So maybe then I had to write Alex Miller to be like, hey, can you maybe, do you have some
SBCC you can send to me or something like that?
But yeah, that no longer has to happen.
And the same for stacking, for state stacks BTC.
We can now get the BTC yield, swap it into SBTC,
maybe even create automations there,
as the BTC comes in to automatically move it into SBTC
and basically
get it into users' hands that way.
So yeah, there's just a lot more
surface area
that's created for builders
to build with SBTC
and more surface area for
traders to
or users
to take advantage of all the strategies and the yields on
stacks. So, you know, very exciting day in that sense. Absolutely. And on the experts side,
we'd love to hear from you and the team, you know, being one of the very first wallets to support
SBTC and really help to drive its growth as well going from again the initial
cap to an uncapped world. What does this mean for the life of SBTC from a custodial perspective with
Xverse and some of the other integrations that you all have? All right.
Maybe there's a technical issue, so we'll come back on the expert side.
Brandon, I want to come to you from the Granite side.
Talk to us.
Similar question.
Granite comes out and starts to launch just shortly after SBTC comes to life.
You guys are working a lot on the lending and borrowing side.
How does SBTC's Uncap really start to open up the possibility of lending and loaning markets
when it comes to Bitcoin as a collateral or therefore SBTC as a collateralized asset.
Yeah, thanks, Kyle. And yeah, congrats to everybody for this big day on capping day.
Yeah, super excited for what the cap removal means and really just what it means for reducing friction in using stacks and apps on stacks like like Granite, of course, I
think, you know, that the SBTC uncapping, it's almost like
going from like, an open beta to like a fully launched product in
some sense, you know, it's like, it kind of gives users
confidence that you know, they can bridge into stacks, any size,
right amount of BTC. And, you know, the team feels confident that they can support that. So it's,
it's huge. And I think the fact also that the SBTC rewards program will continue and, you know,
has historically been paying around 3% APY is certainly a very, very nice feature to have.
And because of, you know, the cap removal, we now
have the ability for, like I said, you know, even larger institutions, Bitcoin whales, they can now
come in, deploy their Bitcoin in size, feel confident and comfortable that they can do that
now, you know, on apps like Granite, they can take advantage of those borrow rates right now,
borrow rates on Granite are still less than 1% APY.
So if you combine that with the 3% historical APY
that SBTC has paid out through the rewards program,
it's almost like, I don't want to say free money
because I don't want to get in trouble from legal people,
but it certainly makes sense to take out know, to take out a loan, right, and then go deploy it elsewhere, where you can continue to kind of stack those yields. So certainly very, very powerful. And, you know, on the leather side, you know, we've had the ability to bridge, you know, from the L1 to the L2, you can bridge, you know, directly in leather.
too you can bridge you know directly in leather but that button wasn't always usable right because
the cap was was was here and people couldn't always do that so again going back to removing
friction making it as easy as possible for anybody to bridge in you know virtually any amount of
bitcoin you know it's a little over 100 i guess of bitcoin depending on uh the price of bitcoin at
the time uh and then being able to bridge out as well whenever you need to.
So removing friction, super important. These types of infrastructure upgrades are super important
to just make it much easier for users to come in and out and use stacks and use all these great
apps that are on stacks. And yeah, couldn't be more excited for the upgrade today.
yeah, couldn't be more excited for the upgrade today.
Absolutely.
And Brandon, thank you.
You mentioned a very key question or point
that I think a lot have questions about,
and that is how the SBTC incentive program
is evolving from here.
We've had a first few nine months
of that program running out or running forward,
pardon me, and now we are in a process
of this new and cap.
So Andre and Alex, we'd love to hear from you
how the program is going to evolve and mature from here.
And how is it going to continue to deliver
those competitive yields to participants
throughout the program?
Yeah, so the short answer is that the rewards program
is going to continue more or less.
And basically the way that I think about it is that there's a couple different ways that you can start earning sustainable yield on your Bitcoin.
I think the first way is essentially through consensus.
And that's kind of what we've been piloting with the SBDC rewards program.
piloting with the SBDC rewards program. And our goal is to eventually sort of upgrade that to the
dual stacking model where you can start to earn boosted rewards by also holding STX alongside of
it. And then we're also looking at ways that we can start to enable, you know, real Bitcoin yield
through the Stacks DeFi application. So different sorts of, you know, looping strategies
or funding rate strategies where you can deploy your Bitcoin and start earning a real yield on it.
And then the rewards program that is being offered is kind of like the cherry on top.
And so ultimately, we hope to be able to differentiate by being the best place.
If you want to earn Bitcoin yield on-chain, stacks in SBDC is really the first place that you look at.
And there's a few ways that we're planning to go about that and rolling out new upgrades over the coming months.
out new upgrades over the coming months.
And then, so until then, the SBDC Rewards Program is going to continue kind of in its
current form.
Again, that is a variable rate, and so it's based on the number of factors, including
the amount of SBDC that has been deployed into the protocol, stacking yields, and a number
of other factors.
To date, it's been just at around 3%, 3.5%.
And yeah, really looking to continue scaling that out
to more users over the coming months.
Absolutely.
I think the advisor might have just jumped down,
but the advisor, if you're still with us on the speaker mode, just give me a wave real quick.
I have a little technical difficulties on my side seeing you, but we'll bring you up here in just a moment.
And Andre, thank you for sharing on how the incentive program is going to continue to evolve and mature from here.
continue to evolve and mature from here. One thing I wanted to share with everybody
from my perspective, having been a part of the SBTC rollout as well since its launch and working
with a lot of investors, both retail and institutional, on getting educated, but also
getting involved in SBTC and learning about all the wonderful applications, whether it be Zest and Granite,
StackingDAO, Xverse, Bitflow, and many other, Hermetica and many others throughout the ecosystem.
You know, one thing that seemed to be very consistent is that, again, the ecosystem as is
when it comes to Bitcoin has dramatically matured as well and expanded. I was very lucky enough to work with Tiger Research
recently out of South Korea to talk about the current landscape and excitement around
Bitcoin-based assets, whether that's tokenized, raft, or something unique like SBTC,
and how that is progressing and pushing the industry forward. And we discussed a lot about how DeFi on Bitcoin
has become inevitable. As I noted, we went from zero or just a handful of Bitcoins to now almost
2% of all Bitcoin between staking, restaking, and assets is productive in some manner. And when you
break that down to SBTC, a fun little equation I did before we jumped on the
space is right now, we look at all of the Bitcoin that's out in the world when it comes to whether
it's ETFs, public treasuries, DATCOs, PubCos, all these different things that we're starting to see.
There's over 2.4 million Bitcoin currently sitting idle in some kind of capacity when it comes to those publicly
traded entities. Right now, SBTC sits at 5,000 SBTC. That presents an almost 500x opportunity
of where SBTC can grow into that same amount. But more importantly, what I thought was really fascinating is that SBTC today represents almost a quarter percent of all the Bitcoin that's currently sitting out idle
in public treasuries and ETFs around spot Bitcoin and the like that is sitting idle and really
looking forward for somewhere to go as we're starting to see more conversations about that.
And we're starting to hear more institutional investors, whether that be venture capital funds to endowments, sovereign wealth funds, to even family offices and liquid
funds, hedge funds. And again, these public entities and treasuries and ETFs are all looking
to begin, depending on the risk tolerance, moving into an asset like SBTC or into a protocol like some of those that we've heard to today to
begin to earn a passive-like income or yield off of that main asset that we've all heard
about for now 16 years, and that gave birth to this ecosystem. In that report, we also broke down
a lot around the custody layer
and also where the asset is going. And so I highly recommend checking out that research report. It's
four parts from Tiger Research, covers the entire landscape, highlights a lot of what's happening
across SBTC and the Stacks ecosystem and how here within this ecosystem, we have helped to power
the greater Bitcoin economy and where things are going from
here. Next question I want to bring to market is as we look for SBTC and its positioning around
its strength leveraging the Bitcoin Core L1, Andre, talk to us about how things are continuing to evolve
from a security perspective.
SBTC being built on Stax, 100% backed by Bitcoin.
Where does it go from here?
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, first thing I just wanted to plus one,
I think you laid out the upside opportunity for SBTC very well
in that when we look at these Bitcoin
treasury companies, digital asset treasuries, they're ultimately in the business of growing
their Bitcoin per share or their MNAV. And I think with the work that we're doing both on
DeFi yields, as well as providing sustainable real yield through Bitcoin staking consensus, I think it's a
natural next step in evolution where these companies will eventually look for on-chain
solutions to be able to do that. And that's where Stacks is really well positioned. So
I definitely see these sorts of treasury companies being a really interesting growth opportunity for SBTC and the
entire Stacks network. And so, you know, Andre, sorry, real quick, I also want to give a shout
out to the BD working group across the entire Stacks ecosystem. There has been a lot of effort
across the ecosystem in educating investors, helping to onboard investors into SBTC over the last nine months.
And there's a lot of individuals that contribute to that effort and research reports like the Tiger Research Report and others, and just a lot of the efforts in onboarding capital, whether that's through those entities we just discussed or through a variety of funds and institutions alike.
And so I see some of them in the audience.
I want to make sure that that also gets very well highlighted.
There's so many people that do this.
I just got to be the one with the mic today.
So a shout out to all those behind the scenes helping to make this possible.
Absolutely.
And we see some of them in the audience right now.
Shout out Jonas, Shaley, Grant.
Make sure you give them a follow because they're out there really onboarding,
talking directly to a lot of these sort of like digital asset companies
and treasuries and really doing a lot of education
to ultimately get them to come on chain.
But so, Kyle, I guess to go back to your last question. So a lot of the
work right now on SBTC is really looking at, you know, what are the upgrades that we want to
explore over the long term to continue to ensure that SBTC is the most secure and the most reliable
place to be able to trade your Bitcoin on chain.
And I think a lot of the feedback that we've gotten from the market is very clear,
where if you can offer self-custodial Bitcoin solutions in DeFi,
where you don't have to give up custody of your Bitcoin,
you can hold on to that in your custody or even through
new innovations like BitBM and using zero-knowledge technology to ultimately ensure the
safekeeping of your Bitcoin, especially if you as a Bitcoin provider or your trusted custodian is one of the operators in this network,
you're able to get these unilateral guarantees that you can always reclaim your Bitcoin when
you want to do that. I think that's going to be a very important evolution in terms of the
security of Bitcoin L2s. And we're spending a lot of our time internally really thinking about
what are the best ways that we can implement these technologies to solve real problems that we're
seeing that we think can help to scale to billions of dollars worth of Bitcoin capital. And ultimately,
it's where we see the space heading over the next 12, 18, 24 months.
see the space heading over the next 12, 18, 24 months.
Thank you, Andre.
I'll give you a break again.
The advisor, are you with us?
Maybe not.
Okay.
Oh, yes, they are.
Yes, yes, yes.
I have some connection.
It's not you.
It is the platform at B.
So we are happy to have you and welcome to the stage.
I just would love to get your opinion.
You are supporting many different protocols.
You live life on chain from what I see here on X.
And you are a very integral part of the community,
both on-chain and in real life as well.
Just would love to hear your experience around SBTC,
you know, all the way back from December
to the middle of the summer
and watching that last cap hit in less than 24 hours
and really in less than a couple hours to today's uncap.
What does that mean?
And then what do you see as kind of that next wave of SBTC going from here, having been
so involved in living on chain?
Sure.
So I do think that SBTC, let's say this is the last mass compared SBTC has been hit.
And we've seen, like generally speaking, we've seen seen the increase of people that want to use PTC on-chain for yield.
We have seen it across different chains.
But SBTC is the first trust-minimized asset that really can give more confidence and security to the users.
And at the same time, you have a strong deep ecosystem of stocks where we can already earn yield with BTC.
So like this last, I mean this milestone of today, I think it's just a combination of its progress where finally any user can start earning yield on the BTC on chain with more security. So maybe people underestimate how big this event is.
And as next steps, I do feel like now
we have dual staking is going to come,
potential new BTC DeFi primitives are coming.
So this was the last milestone
before starting this new objectives that will bring stocks more closer to bitcoin
more become aligned so overall definitely this this is a big moment for anyone that does ptc
they can start using zels granite and other protocols and or why other super cool comments cool things are coming uh for ptc orders on stocks so like this the end
of a chapter let's call it like this but a lot more is coming with the satoshi's upgrade while
staking it is evolved and more so yeah really more it's even more exciting i would say uh this stage
you left some left some easter eggs in answer, so we'll come back to those
as well. Thank you, the advisor. You did also mention the idea that anybody and anyone,
anywhere can participate in SPTC's yield and also those additional yields throughout
the many applications that have been speaking here on stage, Zest, StackingDAO, X-First, Leather, Granite, Hermetica, Biflo, and others who weren't able to
join us today. And it's fascinating at the BD Working Group, we do talk to a lot of a variety
of capital that sits in different regions around the world. And again, sit at different sizes and
in different stages, public, private, and the otherwise.
And we have noticed a lot of that conversation around earning off of your Bitcoin, seeing Bitcoin more as a store of value,
looking at SBTC as that route, that from a jurisdiction standpoint, there is no bounds,
that many want to participate and see SBTC as a unique opportunity wherever
they may be.
We've had the chance to speak to those in some countries like Thailand and Vietnam,
to in the UAE, to even in Japan, where a lot of that policy is quickly shifting from a tax implication to how Bitcoin staking
and other things can be a part of everyday life
for not just the applications, but for the people as well.
And we're also seeing a lot of that happen in Korea.
We'll be at KBW next week, Korea Blockchain Week,
talking with more institutions along with service providers
and local policymakers about how
policy is shifting and SVTC can play a role in those efforts for the underlining people.
Because as we know, Bitcoin is for everybody as well.
So just wanted to add on to that and the efforts that the BD Working Group and the ecosystem
as a whole is taking on.
Alex, you've had too much time to hang
out over there. We want to bring you back up on stage. And Andre, I want to talk to you both a
little bit about self-custodial SBTC. The advisor mentioned a few Easter eggs, and one of the
biggest names that he threw out there was the Satoshi upgrades. In the Satoshi upgrades
earlier this summer, we did talk about a number of things, everything from dual stacking,
potentially to self-custodial SBTC and more. What is self-custodial SBTC? Maybe to start there for
those who were not able to attend there, and then what greater impact will that have on the ecosystem
going forward now that the cap has been removed? Yeah, I mean, so ultimately, you know, I think
one of the goals, and there's a lot of different upgrades being explored for SBTC to improve it,
but like one of the one of the kind of goals that we've been looking at and working on models for
would be a model of SBTC where you can actually keep the Bitcoin that's
backing your one-to-one pegged SBTC in your own wallet or in your own custodian's wallet
on the L1 and then, you know, have like unilateral withdrawal properties there.
So if anything ever happened to the Stacks Network, which we all know it won't, but,
you know, it's good to have the backup. You could reclaim your Bitcoin even without the signers there. And, you know, which would
obviously, there's a lot of folks for whom not having to transfer their Bitcoin from their own
L1 wallet would be, you know, really appealing. Obviously, like I trust the SBDC signers network,
I hold SBDC, but I'd still love it even more if it could be on my
own hardware wallet, multi-sig, with no other dependencies.
Andre, anything to add from the development side of that?
Yeah, I mean, I just go back to some of the fundamental reasons of why we're here,
which is to remove trust in any sort of third party
when using your Bitcoin.
I think those are some of the goals that we have when we set out, you know, really starting
to dive deep into the Satoshi upgrades and what we can enable there.
So, you know, I think that dual stacking is, you know, really the first part of that that we should expect to see, where you'll be
able to participate in stacking Bitcoin, where Bitcoin doesn't have to leave your self-custody.
And this would allow you to start earning yield through POX, but with the ability to still be able to use that in DeFi and ultimately
have like a liquid SBDC token that is able to, you know, take advantage of other sorts
of productive use cases.
So, you know, that's going to be the first upgrade that we see.
You know, we should expect to see that, expect to see more details coming out about that over the coming days and weeks.
And yeah, I think that that fits into a lot of the broader research that we're doing just to ensure that SBC is the safest and most reliable way to use your Bitcoin and DeFi.
way to use your Bitcoin DeFi. And as we begin to let the Bitcoin flow, we see Bitcoin SVTC go from
5,000 to above and beyond. And we really start to grow greater market share and really help to
bring more of that idle Bitcoin into the productive era of Bitcoin's history.
We'd love to hear, Brendan, Tycho, your views from the application side.
What are you and your applications kind of preparing for here as we sprint into the end of the year
and we head into the next year of 2026. So looking ahead,
what does year two look like for SBTC integrated for your users and your roadmaps? First,
we'll start, Brendan, with you with leather and granite.
Yeah, I'm a little less involved on the kind of infrastructure technical side. So I'll do my best
to answer this question from from granite's perspective. I think one of the one of the challenges has been, you
know, and Granite has already kind of secured a few institutions, but these institutions have
very complex requirements when it comes to custody of their assets and looking forward to just more support there when it comes to
multi-sig and
just these more complex kind of custody requirements that
institutions can have to bring their Bitcoin
in and deploy it safely
and compliantly on apps like
on apps like Granite, but I'll throw it over to Tyco.
Granite. But I'll throw it over to Tycho. I'm sure he has a better answer
I'm sure he has a better answer than me.
than me.
Yeah, so Kyle, just to your question was,
what is next for the applications building with SBDC?
Exactly, so for Zest and StackingDAO,
unless Tyco is the next application layer,
but Zest and StackingDAO.
Looking ahead, what's on the roadmap?
What's getting everyone excited?
Yeah, I think for one, right now that the SPTC is free flowing,
one thing that could be very interesting or something
we can start experimenting with more
is kind of like bringing more of that experience inside the app.
So let's say you want to deposit on Zest,
just bring that experience from going to BTC to SBTC
to SBTC on Zest inside the application.
But also maybe the other way around.
If you want to collect rewards from stacking,
we could distribute those in SBTC.
Also potentially for native stacking, for stacking down.
And maybe people could just take them out directly into BTC
without withdrawing them first into their stack wallet, etc.
So kind of like bringing that bridge to and from L1
more closely into the application layer is very interesting.
And yeah, so that's I think what's really, this unlocks more surface to build with.
And yeah, at the same time, maybe to say a few words for some of the DEXs, or I know
that the Bitflow team is thinking a lot about this.
It's like how to create this kind of trading experience
where someone can connect their wallet,
maybe they just have Bitcoin in there,
and they can, say, buy a RUNES token on Bitcoin,
but it's routed over stacks.
Or they can buy a meme coin on stacks
and they just send a Bitcoin transaction and they do that.
I know there's a lot of work also being done now by Larry on giving every Stacks address a Bitcoin address and the other way around too.
So yeah, that just unlocks more service area to integrate St apps with with bitcoin and the other way around
just so much more tightly absolutely and i believe that's you're referring to the the recent sip
proposal uh that was put forth by by larry yeah exactly yeah that does really begin to open up i
mean right now we've got a lot of the pieces in place uh for the year one uh as we'll call it, of SBTC.
And now growing that and maturing it
is going to be an exciting year ahead,
whether it be from the integration of self-custodial
and the Satoshi upgrades
to the evolution of the application layer
and things from a trading perspective
to the new SIP that Larry has put out
and also just the wave of new ramps and bridges and also incentive programs
that continue to help push $5,000 ahead to $10,000 and well beyond as well.
And very exciting to see how the next year rolls out.
Again, we left some Easter eggs here throughout
the conversation as well. And Andre, if you would maybe close us off with some good words as to
what else to be excited about looking ahead to SBTC year two.
Yeah, I think it's just continuing to double down on the strategy that we set out at the beginning
of the year. I think a lot of the thinking there is around improving liquidity for the Stacks network overall so that it's really
easy to be able to swap SBDC for Runes tokens or USDC and just improve the overall experience
around that. If you want to borrow you know, borrow against your SBDC
for different yield strategies, then it should be easy for anyone to be able to do that
and do it in size, really accommodating larger institutional investors as well as part of that.
And so, you know, with that, we're always looking at ways that we can improve the user experience around SBDC,
whether it's the on-ramps, offering new bridging
providers, better wallet integrations.
And so yeah, it really is kind of like this next era
for the protocol.
And it's largely doubling down on what we've already
been doing and continuing to improve
a lot of the processes that are in place.
Absolutely.
And I would encourage those in the community,
if there's something more you're looking for,
a piece of that infrastructure
to service providers and the like,
do reach out.
We'd love to hear.
I know the BD Working Group
would love to have
some exciting interest from the community
of what else we could go after
and speak to from a partner's perspective
and what is next for the Stacks ecosystem
in SBTC Chapter 2.
That said, Alex, Tycho, Andre, Brandon,
Mystery Experts, who is on behind the scenes there, and also the
advisor.
Thank you all very much for tuning in and joining us today as speakers.
Wishing you all a very exciting Chapter 2 SBTC.
And also, congratulations to the entire Stacks and Bitcoin ecosystem, all the working groups,
all the teams, all the developers, all of the partners,
the service providers, and all of the signers
and everybody else in between.
And most importantly, you, the community,
for all that you have done to bring SBTC to life
and into this next chapter and era
for both SBTC and Stacks.
That said, thank you as well for tuning in.
If you would like to tune in live in the future,
be sure to follow Stacks here on X slash Twitter.
And also feel free to reach out if you have questions,
you'd like to talk live or join future conversations.
We'd be happy to have you and also have you a part of the community more forward.
Again, everything discussed today was not financial advice.
It was for educational and informative purposes only.
Please do your own research when making any decisions on what was discussed today.
Thank you all very much.
I'm your host, Kyle Ellicott.
Until next time, enjoy your day, your week, and hopefully we'll see you at Korea Blockchain
Week or Token 2049 or somewhere else in the world or back here in
the Twitterverse. Take care everybody. Thanks Kyle, great stuff. Thanks everybody. Take care.
And don't forget to put your SBTC on Zest.
