I'll see you in the next video.
Right guys, can you do mites us for me? Sorry, we'll go with an alternate south
No, I can't hear you Jack. I can hear you. Hello
I'm joking. I couldn't have answered it if I couldn't hear
All right, I can hear you both of course yeah, yeah that makes that so and
Ivan I'll do the Reno. Can you hear everybody rock and Jake Ivan penny bucks now? I can't can everybody hear me
Alright guys, so we've switched hosts in the main account and we're gonna see if this is any better
Apologies third time's the charm. This is the third iteration of spaces. So let's go
Does Twitter spaces seem to just get like worse over time
It might be to do with the like the net the network load like spaces are becoming more and more popular as a medium of
Distributing information and so what was kind of working when it was a really nice thing is now definitely not working, you know
It's like if you have a little tiny
You know, I could run about car that might be good to go around the block with
But then if you take it on a long haul 500 mile trip is gonna break down, right?
Yeah, well, hopefully they figure out how they battle test from all of us our usage and
Cuz what do we have we must have we must have hundreds of hours of
Of dose chain roundtables, right?
Hundreds because some of these are three hours long or more. Well on average, it's uh, yeah, two three hours long
72 weeks in a row. So what's that like 200 something hours?
150 to 200 and something hours. Yeah
With all these lovely sheaves that's a lot of doge
To get into it just so you know, by the way
I've made uh yourself and ivan co-host just in case you need to authorize anybody and I don't see the request
So some interesting things happen this week in the doge space
Start accepting payment in doge
Which is kind of interesting really I don't know if I didn't yeah that
it's kind of it's kind of weird because
like, you know doge is generally held in small amounts by
Like smaller investors because of its like, you know potential to do these crazy parabolic runs
Maybe that's a positive sign of things to come
Maybe there'll be a lot more doge supercars out there. I know there was a doge McLaren for a while
Maybe for aria hoping to catch you know, it's still around
Alive and well, I was just talking to the owner the other day
Nice that's quick. That's crazy that it comes
At at this moment when when it really hasn't had its time in the bull run yet
I guess it's uh, it's an interesting premise because for example, you could buy
then grand worth of doge and uh, if we
Speculate on previous past action price action or in in bull runs
Uh, that could get you a Ferrari
In like a year or something that that would be crazy
When lamborghini that's what I want to know
Yeah, which one is better well more
Their main uh competition has adopted it so it should be something that the other market leader in sports car is considering
When tesla didn't because tesla they turned it off, right? They had it on then they turned it off
I don't know. I thought I think you still can
Yeah for much but they had like uh
They you could purchase teslas for bitcoin
For uh for like a short while but then they turned it off
Did they have it did they not do it for doge two I can't remember now no no doge was always only for for merch
Like the whistle what's up with that?
Doge for a shirt. What's up with that man?
Elon what the hell daddy? I think there's the well in my group we could have been it for the whole payment angle on it
Because there was this whole speculation
Around six months ago about um, the fact that he was doing x making x as the everything up
Which includes payments and all this other stuff
And so, you know the speculation was that the native currency would be doge
So it would be interesting to see if that pans out because I think that would obviously drive massive adoption because of the number of
Daily uses that x has I mean I guessed my my prediction on that and not you guys might hate me but
I just don't think that's what he's doing because
There was a space where a bunch of bitcoiners were asking about like using lightning or bitcoin for it
Didn't sound like he was thinking about cryptocurrency at all for it
So I look I I could be totally wrong and he wasn't asked directly about doge on that spaces
But just his the way he was answering to me felt like he was not
It was not going to be doge, but I could be totally wrong. So sorry. I don't want to get your guys's, you know
But that's just my prediction i'm just giving my prediction here
Well, I think in terms of like I think someday he will by the way, I think I think for sure someday
He will I don't think that's what's happening right now
Maybe it won't be the primary. So like he launches with fear, but then he integrates cryptocurrency payments afterwards. Probably what's life has happened
Especially if there's a lot of user demands
Um, but in terms of adoption that that would be way more impactful than the whole thing with
With Ferrari because the Ferrari is cool because it's like an ego boost to say like
You know this is you can pay in this to get supercar
Well, I think like, you know more realistically something that does a lot of small payments like processing on a social media app
That's going to be far more impactful for the doge ecosystem overall
Yeah, when you look at what the impact of that in china with like wechat and whatsapp
I mean it's massive massive massive and I think really I think that's what he's doing. He's just copying what they're doing in china and
We I know we like to you know in the west kind of
Villainize china, but there are some things that they do that are you know, smart business ideas, right?
Um, it's interesting. It just makes sense to have like, uh, a lot of your
General day-to-day things like things that you need to do pay invoices
Buy stuff and so on all on one app because then it keeps your attention
And it like, you know becomes this kind of all-encompassing thing, which is far better
You know, it's it's good in some ways and bad in others
It's like would you want facebook for example to have access to all your financial transactions?
Probably not would I be more open to x and elon having access to my stuff?
Oh, yeah big time, but you know, there's also implications there, right privacy implications
We just did a three-hour space on privacy. So that's top of mind for me
Um, by the way, it looks like my and this is why I love these spaces is we can have a bunch of different great opinions
And while I you know, I think i'm a kind of i'm a okay kind of smart guy
But maybe i'm wrong and that's what I said and it looks like we just in seven hours ago
Uh, thanks to whoever posted that for shitting on my point
But just in elon musk teases the possibility of doge payments on x. What's so what's this about?
I don't know man. I just posted it but it it has zero zero sources and uh, well
Wealth of capital they usually you know, they post at least some some kind of source
Or at least something in the comments and they I just
This like went through my uh timeline earlier today. I saved it
I just posted it because we were talking about it. But uh
There's no source for this comment. The top comment is source engagement farming
Exactly. Well, maybe somebody should
investigate life to see if there's any truth to it because surely there's a
PR blast somewhere from one of the major outlets that corroborates, right?
I it looks like no because the guy whale fud responded and said he said it multiple times in the past
Nothing new then sir doge of the coin said then it's not just in
Uh, so I don't know. Well
We can continue following
Maybe and I think in reference to what you said about privacy i'd agree with you. I think
You know, but in terms of as far as privacy is concerned, you know many
Smaller service providers having little pieces of data
Is much better for an individual's privacy than one super massive service provider having all of somebody's data, right?
And just to add to that as well, I would also say that
I think as far as apps go
Sometimes specialization is good
You know if you have an app that does one thing but it does it really really well
Is that better than an app that does 10 things in a mediocre way?
But then you have to run 10 apps. There's like more processing power in your system
And uh kind of like more fast maintain the logins and everything else. I don't know
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of um, I don't know just uh
Kind of google versus being in microsoft, right? They're essentially trying to do exactly that where they have
They want to be the everything to everyone
right, uh, and then they've got apps that integrate with each other to do everything from banking to search to
Whatever, you know that we use day in day out
Um, so I just I see it like
I don't know. I've got I've got kind of like another view on
Uh x if it is trying to be a super app you could call that
you know centralization, so
You have to remember as well. This the next stage of this
so then it kind of becomes
Everything you want to do on that but also in the real world or slash real world virtual world
Um, and so it's interesting to think like how that will play out because the the level of control
That that's the future that we're heading to is quite severe. So I think maybe rock's right like smaller. I mean we love elon obviously
But smaller service providers providing individual services might be better. Although it is less efficient
Elon is like the one person in the world where I would like kind of be
More down for him to have more of my data
I would almost give him a lot of my data if I thought he could use it to help humanity
Maybe i'm way too much of an elon fan, but
Well, I was going to say do you think that could be the
The plan though that like he's like the counterculture
You know, it's like he's like a plant almost
I'm just going wildly speculative here, but I mean it it depends on yeah, I think people can use like
Technologies for good or bad
And like as an example, I think when he bought x
And then opened it up for free speech
I think that's an example of someone using their power and and using technology for good
inherently people don't use things for like good or bad they use things for like profit and
Profit is generally a good thing. I think actually that you know when people make a profit
It means they provided a value to the world or they solved a problem
Sometimes the way they make a profit is not exactly aligned with your incentives
The incentives aren't perfectly aligned
Yeah, or just unclear. So so for example like with
Cobalt mining for electric batteries, right? So
In the west the incentive is that everybody wants to be greener
And so they want to use, you know these huge
Electric batteries to power cars and trucks and you know all all the modern life
And so that's seen as like a green alternative to fossil fuels
But the kind of other end of that supply chain, which isn't
that well publicized is the fact that there's
Democrat republics of congo and other places there's like uh
All these like, you know, they call them artisanal mines, which is like basically, you know mining cobalt by hand in a very kind of
Uh exploitative way and so because that isn't very well known. What's the exploit to tips part of it?
Many of them are children and they're sort of a lot of them, you know, maybe they don't get paid or they get paid very little
I like and it's kind of slave to do this. Are they slaves or are they doing this volunteer in some cases?
I believe yes because of the whole situation with power militaries over there
It was like very very doubt topic and um
There's definitely some of that. Yeah, you can't really go into it and i'm no expert
But when i've looked into it most of it was like maybe you would consider bad work conditions, but voluntary which i'm generally
Okay with it like i'm okay with people making decisions with about their bodies now children totally different story
But if an adult says hey i'm willing to go mine cobalt with my hands and it might be risky
Um, there's lots of risky jobs in the world that people do people want, you know
Built, you know do it changing out the bulb on top of a you know, watch tower
Uh working on oil rigs, you know, highly high death rates on those my dad work was uh was uh, what did they call him up?
Uh, I forget the name. But anyways, my dad worked in that when he was young
Um, there's a lot of jobs that are dangerous
And I think if a grown adult makes the decision to to take that job
And and also is making more money in many cases than they would have otherwise so like
You know this goes to like what people call like slave labor
They would call it slavery, but I don't at all call it that but like
Outsourcing to the philippines and people are like, oh, well you're only paying them three dollars an hour. Well
And that's like slave labor
But I mean in reality if you ask those people they're very very very happy because they were making 50 cents an hour
Before the u.s. Outsource to them, right? So
Yeah, three dollars an hour to us doesn't seem like a lot but to them that's great
Right. So I I guess I'm looking at both sides of it. I'm looking at both sides. Yeah
The one thing I would say though is a lot of these um
The cobalt industry so I know we've gone up in a little bit of this hand in here
but it's just one point as like where the market can be slightly inefficient is a lot of the
demand for electric vehicles and so on it's driven by
you know the whole esg kind of green planet agenda and
The problem with that is these mining companies will not say that they use
Autism or miners that they they use people that they get out by hand
They will say that it's all done by machinery and like a modern the way that a mine show through on and so there's a bit of
Like misleading there and so then you'll get investment into these companies that shouldn't happen which kind of perpetuates the industry
This is just like one thing. Um
Yeah, generally I'll get you
Yeah, that's that's one of the things where like I think government is good is um,
You know finding people that are committing fraud. That's fraud to me, right if you're saying
Here we're mining it this way, but then you're really mining it another way
That's just simple fraud and I think that's something that should always be very clear
Like fraud is an illegal thing and we should press charges on people who commit fraud
It's just an example of like how you could think that you're doing a good thing living in the west
And actually that is perpetuating quite a negative industry
Um, but yeah, I mean, that's just one example. Um
But it's interesting. It's like you said about the market's been efficient and they are but not always
Market participants don't always have all the information
I don't know humanity as a whole is not very careful on what they're doing
regarding the environment and
Consumerism is uh has consumed us for sure. I know that
Many people don't believe in in uh, like global warming climate change, etc
but even if we put that aside like
Everything that we have in our smartphones the materials used in them
Everything that we use for our cars
uh electrical batteries for you
electrical vehicles every everything is
Not very good for the environment in
In uh as a whole so, uh, I don't know where we're going with with everything. It's a bit. It's a bit grim
But hopefully we uh, we take would you
Let me ask you something there. I've been I this is a cool conversation. Um
Would you are you willing to trade?
harming the environment to some extent
Zero through a hundred or zero through a million, you know zero being like or you know point one being
Um, I you know if you walk outside you might step on a bug. So don't walk outside
That's like, okay. That would be zero and a million being like let's just like
Completely cover the entire earth and and metal a layer of metal
Uh so that we could have a sterile, you know
So on a zero zero to a million are there some acceptable levels of harming the invite?
This is and i'm playing devil's advocate guys, by the way, i'm not taking one side here
But is are there acceptable levels of harming the environment to get some benefit for society?
I guess there are I guess there are the thing is that
Not doing anything is not sufficient anymore. We need to
the process so that uh, we actually start rebuilding
Oceans, etc. Depolution from plastic like the plastic industry has has
Completely made us dependable on it
and uh at the same time we're dependable and at the same time, uh, we need to
Stop using plastic, uh, especially one one use plastic. But how do we do that? You know, uh, do we prefer?
The comfort that we have by using plastic because it is
revolutionary plastic is revolutionary, uh
To you know for packaging and stuff like that
What can we do like go completely remove plastic from uh from?
We use on a daily basis and go back to you know cardboard and uh glass
In the long term and how will that impact?
Comfort that we're already so used to it and it are we so far gone that we cannot even
Fathom the fact that we cannot
Do these things anymore and uh go back on them
it's kind of interesting that in so
One kind of cool thing where humanity seems to be somewhat solving this
Is that in a country that is ultra poor and can barely eat or survive?
Maybe they uh, they don't care about the environment as much. They care about surviving, right? And so for them
Using burning burning coal or oil or things these things that helped by the way create the wealth in the west
Um, like we wouldn't be where we are in the west without those, you know
These things that may and do very much do harm the environment
um, and but then you know as time progresses and we get more luxuries and more
Prosperities and more, you know survival isn't now the low on our list
Uh of things to worry about then we start going okay
Let's now start shifting some of our profits shifting some of our our comfort and finding ways to fix
The environment to stop fucking up the environment and like you said fix even some of the issues we've had
What's dangerous is like then when?
And I think that's debatable by the way even on any end but
um, what's dangerous is when I think when the west tries to push now its environmental policy to
On developing countries who haven't had the opportunities we've had who haven't had their industrial revolutions yet
Who don't have the luxury of like survival is not a problem and starvation is not a problem
For them for us to try to push them and we've seen this in many countries where you know
The west or you know the u.n or whatever nato, you know, all these wf
Etc. Davos they all try to push, you know some third world country like hey don't use fertilizers
Because that's bad for the environment
And if you want us to give your government a loan which definitely goes into the hands of bureaucrats and they like enrich themselves
So they say sure we'll make our farmers not use fertilizers because we want to be aligned with uh, you know
The us or you know the un uh, and then they stop using fertilizers
Their crop production goes down and a bunch of people start starting. This has happened like many times
So I think it's a weird thing where like yeah, I think in the west where we have more luxuries
We should be thinking more about the environment
Um, i'm not sure what that level is and oftentimes I think maybe the government is overstepping in some ways
But I think we should be thinking about that. It's it's very important
But then like should we be also pushing our ideology and our our level of like this luxury
We have of even being able to think about these things
Should we be trying to force other countries to do these things? There's it's just an interesting question
Yeah, maybe don't don't don't buy a Ferrari with the doge maybe you should buy a bicycle and stuff
That's the decision we all have to make
Because when you talk about how your cell phone has bad things in it
I'm, sorry, maybe i'm an asshole, but i'll say you know, i've even though it is somehow
Harm the environment probably that it's made of plastic and metals and battery stuff
I'm, going to take my cell phone and I consider myself an environmentalist and for many of my life
I consider myself a kind of hardcore environmentalist. I mean, I I have published research on it
And that's what I studied in school, you know
Well, I was going to school to be a doctor, but a lot of it was you know
I was doing research on it. I also think that but we can but i'm gonna take my cell phone
You know think a little bit when I and just to say just really quick just about what I asked you earlier
Ivan, are there some acceptable things where we are going to harm the environment?
And in our in our own benefit and should we I think I guess is a very interesting answer
Uh, because I think it's not even a question
I mean like because if that was if you really ever if someone ever adds truly answered
No, it's all we got to go full in on the environment
Well, then don't live in a fucking house because that took pre-cutting down to have right don't kill an animal because you have to
You just don't eat because you have to kill something to eat even plants, right?
So in some way like there are there have to be acceptable trade-offs
And that's like what I kind of stress is when I have debates about this with like people on both sides
By the way people who are very far like fuck environmental
You know environment is this is all fake climate change fake and then people who are like, no, we got to go all in
Closer to environment but somewhere kind of in the middle where i'm saying let's be reasonable guys and not let's not go all in
Let's actually think about the consequences of both of sides actions and like we can't just all in the environment
You can't because then society wouldn't exist and you also get this all in say fuck the environment because then we destroy the planet, right?
So to kind of tie this back to cryptocurrency one thing that's quite cool is
First of all, I agree with what you're saying
And I would add to that as well that i'm very optimistic that a lot of these problems that we see now
Are going to be solved just through innovation in the future. There was an economist in the 1800s called
Malphus you may have heard the expression Malphusian catastrophe and he basically thought that because
of how things were farmed
Then and the technology you can have then that eventually the population would grow to a certain size and then it would just decrease
Through war and farming and starvation stuff, but we innovate it and the population's
100 times what it was in Malphus's day
So I kind of think innovation is the key thing there. And uh, another thing is there's so many examples of that jack, but continue
Yeah, and then to tie this back to cryptocurrency in doge whose motto is do only good every day
When you pay somebody on a on an immutable ledger like doge or like bitcoin
There's a trail of accountability there. So
you know people can see like if
You send payment for something
um, and then that payment then goes out to 10 other people if those 10 other people
Like there's a there's a basically there's a trail there at all times
It's not like with cash or with any other kind of currency where
It kind of gets obscured through being in various banks and so on with this it's on it's on the blockchain
So if you was to pay somebody
And then they use that to pay not for mining equipment, but for to pay individuals
Then maybe you could make some decision about how they were using the funds that you spend
And even if you can't now through ai
And all the other kind of things like in the future
And these like you'll be able to track a lot better than you do now
So that's kind of interesting like the transparency that comes with blockchains is really good and important in it in business
but then there's also the personal level of
Security and privacy a blockchain also allow on the other side. So it's a balance, right?
But I think like my personal feeling is that we've blockchain and also
General innovation in climate change in those sectors
I think the future is a lot brighter than people think there's this tendency to always think that like
The sky is going to fall, right? But I I think it could be very good
I think it's the same man. I'm an optimist
I think humans are like this is one of my kind of fundamental things I live by in life is that humans are amazing at solving
Problems we are so good at solving problems. Now. The big question becomes though with the environment is
Our humans solving this problem and does and even more of a question is does a free market
Solve the problems of the environment
Not only that though. Does it solve it fast enough?
to to to not do irreparable
damage irreparable irreparable at least irreparable damage
And or and can we reverse that damage at some point that we are creating because we are creating damage
No doubt about it. Whether that's climate change or animals going extinct
If you look at for example, that's a really scary one, but animals and organisms going extinct
I forget what the number is, but it's something like over a thousand species go extinct every day
Okay, and there's this is now in in nature and in evolution
There's always been animals going extinct and organisms going extinct
But the rate of extinction since humans have come around is massively higher and some of those are genetics will never get back
Right. So well, well, let me let me just counter that though
So yeah, I know that it has been recently
But there's been several times when the earth's gone through massive changes
And you know, for example when the asteroid impacts is five million years ago
There's like a few of them. There's about five or six mass distinctions
Just the biodiversity gets shrunk right down
and then it becomes divergent and expands to fill the new niches that are left by the new thing whatever it is like
You know an asteroid has destroyed half of one it or in our case we send everything to asphalt
And we've built houses there, right? There'll be new things that evolve to fill that gap
and I think like to say that
Life won't by the way, maybe maybe maybe or maybe we turn the earth into a barren landscape
That doesn't have very many animals. Yeah, I just don't see it man
And i'm just playing both sides here
You know four billion years ago one earth was in its cooling phase. People are quite fond to say that
Whatever that is cooling phase. It was the definition of a barren desert
It was molten rock and life found a way to give us all this
So I personally I think it'll just adapt because I take a cityscape
But we have humans which are completely different than anything in the history of all evolution a completely different dominant species
We could literally if we wanted we could wipe out we could choose
Systematically and we don't want to do this because I don't think we're evil
But we may be not on purpose
but we could there's no there never been a species or an action or a
Media or anything that could like systematically if we wanted we could wipe out any species we could go to war with any
No, no, we could and we could wipe them out and what in five days, right?
No, no, I agree we could wipe out any species
But even if we did the worst, right?
We unleashed all the nuclear weapons and all the viruses at once whatever the government has right?
All the people would be dead
And then there would be organisms that survived and would just repopulate like my my my point is like
Yeah nature will find a way
Eventually, you can't get any will take a lot of time. The thing is that we we want to do
Even though that we can destroy everything
The thing is that we don't want to destroy everything and we want to you know
Prolong our time on on earth here not just in a generational way, but just as a civilization
Taking account that humanity has been around for what?
Which is which is really like
It's it's really like a blimp
in in earth's history, you know, and uh
the the idea is that we want to uh
We have done a lot of harm since uh in industrialization, etc
But uh, the thing is that I do hope that we have that
You know will to fix things
Continue destroying everything on our path
You you guys were talking about being able to to destroy any species if you wanted to
On purpose, but we almost did this and like one person
Did like the most environmental uh
In the last like 100 years is the guy that invented
Substitute for for gas. So leaded gas is something that that polluted like earth
imaginable ways in the in uh in the 50 years that it was uh, like
Active and we used it every day for our cars
people got stupider because of it because you know
lead in water leads to uh, reduced intelligence and uh, you know death
The animals dying and this was only one guy it was also the same guy that invented aerosols
Uh, you know for deodorants, etc
Uh, and he was also responsible for the for the hole in the ozone layer. So it's the same guy
Insane that the same guy invented two things that were completely obliterating the environment
But oh, okay. Well, let's talk about that. What's what's your opinion on it?
Do you know much about the the hole in the ozone layer because this was like a big thing
Earth where they were we were gonna get fried like a fucking I don't know magnifying glass or something and like we're gonna lose
Like atmosphere and all this crazy stuff would happen because this hole and then it's repairing it
It's completely like I mean, it's like very strongly repairing itself or or like borderline
Fully repaired or whatever now and I think was that was that now just because we were wrong or was it because we stopped using some?
Of those chemicals. No, we stopped we we stopped using the the the chemical agents that were uh, the
What what are they called cps? I think in industry, especially
Your can of deodorant is not going to make a hole in the ozone layer. But uh in industries were using like these gases
At a very larger scale and they stopped using it and which is why
The the ozone layer is is repairing itself
And it will continue to repair itself it there's no hole in it. I think it's so we can't
That's an optimist. Yeah, that's very optimistic for us, right? I think
Man, I so we might we know we know
She's going to school getting her phd and and in a lot of these topics
But uh, anyways, go ahead. Yeah, so it's like uh, we we know it's the problem
We didn't know something before somebody invented something that we thought was convenient
So like to tie this back to crypto currency, it's like somebody invented fiat currency
People thought that it would be useful because it would ease the flow of capital through the market
But it turned out to be really dangerous causing lots of problems
We fixed the problem by stopping using the thing that was causing the issue
Repent, you know stopping using them in industry repaired the whole nails on layer and I feel like
to tie this back to dope in crypto
But unless people use fiat and the more people use
You know bitcoin and the other things that are that have come after
Then the hole in the financial ozone layer will kind of repair itself over time
Oh man, somebody got to clip that bookmark that I like that
The whole let's say that again
Yeah, just uh, you know over time the hole in the financial ozone layer will repair itself in the same way that the whole
Flows online. I love that man. I love that. That's so cool
um, you know, there's another example by the way to um,
Go back to what I was talking with you about at the beginning Ivan about like are there acceptable trades is like I mean
Another great example that's pertinent to our space is bitcoin and and doge and the mining and the electricity that they use
Now does this electricity does it cause any issues in the world?
Of course it does because we're burning fossil fuels and and now bitcoin and doge are both tremendously like
High up on the rate of like the percentage of sustainable energy that they use way higher than any other industry
Which will have a good audience for that when you get a second
The question is like is solving the world's fiat and like government, you know
uh, like control of people's, you know wealth through inflation and all of these things and giving people a
Sovereign way to store their value, you know in in countries like maybe in the u.s
Maybe not not as big of a deal. Maybe I think it still is but like in a country like argentina
142 inflation last year that is unacceptable, right? But now they could use bitcoin. So there's clearly a humanitarian
important things that this thing benefits and even by the way
Even if that benefit was just like not having two percent of my money taken each year through inflation
I think that's a benefit that is maybe worth some environmental costs
So, uh, yeah curious what you think about that. Ivan and then jack. So uh,
I I personally think that the the the trade-off is is uh,
Is the net positive for for uh humanity that's decentralization in finances. It's something that we cannot
go without, you know finances and uh trading and everything is
is part of stabilization and
making it decentralized and and
Dogecoin bitcoin, even though they do consume a lot of electricity
Is uh is something that it's uh, it's it's a very
Net positive trade-off more more importantly is that one thing that you mentioned is that they use a lot of
A renewable energy but also that that electricity would be produced anyway
what I mean by that is that
Uh, we are creating this, uh electricity. We are burning those, uh fossil fuels
Uh, a lot of this energy is wasted
Because we cannot use all the electricity that we produce some sometimes we do have like, uh
Like not enough of it, but it's it's not the case in most of uh of the developed countries and moreover
they're like not industries like simple things that are uh, like
comfort things in our lives that consume way way much more energy than bitcoin itself and bitcoin is a net
To humanity where whereas for example like christmas lights
Yeah christmas lights, uh in in just a couple of weeks
Uh consume more energy than bitcoin in a year
Couple weeks. I don't know about you
I we we finally just took ours down because the homeowners association sent gave us a letter that we had to take our christmas light
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you have also china
Some of them started celebrating christmas
In december and then keep their stuff until uh, you know february
Uh for chinese new year, etc. So, uh, yeah, maybe multiple months
But yeah, so what do you think? What I was saying is that because that's not a practical humanitarian thing
That's not a survival thing. That's not a
We like nice twinkly pretty lights. Do you think and we are in some ways you could argue hurting the environment. Should we ban that?
I really want to ban christmas christmas. Yeah, sure, man
I think what's the ban christmas you guys? I wouldn't surprise didn't even say it didn't even say you're kind of
And also, uh in reference to what you're saying regarding the wasted energy thing so
This is one of my favorite points to make when when discussing crystal currency with people and they say, you know
It burns all this energy and we're trying to save the planet
So you're thinking about it wrong. So since
We had this big green scare a couple of years ago with many, um people like tesla and so on
who were looking at crystal crust he moved away from it because it violated the esg principles
A lot of the miners specifically in europe and america. She's what most of the hash power is by the way
Basically, they want to get the lowest price
Per kilowatt hour as possible because that makes the most efficient mining
The good thing about that is the lowest price electricity is usually the electricity that's most likely to be wasted. So for example
Um, if you're on an oil rig
And there's some oil that you can't get rid of for some reason. I think shell or exon is working with
Bitcoin miner to use the energy that will be wasted there. So also when you have gas wells
They do this thing called flaring which is where they burn off
Gas because we've got excess supply and that can be captured
Yeah, and then there's like, you know bekeli in el Salvador. He's doing a project where he
Takes volcanic energy, you know, the volcano is just sitting there in el salvador the fucking
Presenting an existential risk for the el salvadorians that environment of volcanoes
Yeah, yeah, and you know presenting quite a large societal risk to el salvador
And then now it's being used to mine bitcoin, which is enriching the el salvadorian economy and allowing them to progress
industrially and that's really important and so one of the things that you can say
And people say bitcoin waste energy or currency mining waste energy
The more realistic way to frame it is that bitcoin and currency mining uses waste energy
That's really you're dropping. You are dropping knowledge bombs today. It doesn't waste energy. It uses waste energy
Yeah, that one wasn't actually mine I heard it somewhere, but I really like the line
Good stuff. So this space was supposed to be scaling dojianals. By the way, we haven't talked about that at all
Yeah, I think me and me and I haven't before this space we've discussed a little bit about some of the stats around the blockchain
Around the doj blockchain and how that can be kind of
Resolved right so there's been in the last year or so since dojianals became very popular
There's been roughly two million doj doj
Addresses created. It's not all coincident with dojianals
Some of it's just because you know, it's been another year and a half or whatever since we launched doj chain
When we launched doj chain there's about four million addresses, and now there's about six and a half million doj addresses
And so that's great because the network
That's great because I thought we have like 11 million addresses on doj no, that's that's not that's not
Doj chain that's doj the core
Doj, right? Oh, oh, okay. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, so so it was about four and a half million doj addresses
Um when we launched doj chain
Roughly eight two weeks ago, so we have more addresses than doj doj chain has for a while. Yeah
I know some of those are spam and stuff, but that's still
Over the last sort of 18 months since we launched
The doj network has grown roughly by two million addresses, which is about it's just under 50 about 40 percent in size
And whilst that's a marker of success and a positive thing
Especially as we go into the newborn market a lot more people holding and using doj
That creates quite a significant problem because the network's
Tps hasn't really changed at all. And so, you know 40 percent extra users potentially
Not all of those addresses are active. Of course 40 percent extra users
Increasing ability to do things. Yeah
Wait, that's incredible though. Like this is such a like this is why when people say they hate ordinals
Uh and dojinos that i'm just like what are you talking about here? Hold on like
You're increasing the network security
Like linearly with so like for every dollar spent on on ordinals gas ordinals mining transaction is a dollar more spent on security
So you're increasing security and you're telling me because of dojinals or partially because of dojinals
We've had an increase in the entire network's user base
Wall active wallets by 50 percent
Yeah, I think it was a combination of and we're not celebrating this
Yeah, I mean there's a combination of things like one it's just been more time
So the network's going to grow a little bit and then doj chain was launched and then you know, sort of uh a year
Later dojinals came onto the scene and so we know
At least hundreds of thousands of people have used doj for doj chain
We know we know that I mean like I don't know the number but with milli
We have millions of addresses and we know we did a poll and 80 percent of the doj chain users said the first time they ever
Got doj was for doj chain. So they used they bought doj to use doj chain
So I don't know how that scales with our millions of users and how many actually like, you know
I'm assuming it's at least hundred thousand or at least a million people have used because anyone who uses doj chain
I mean every wallet that uses doj chain every transaction you do uses doj. It's a requirement. That's the gas
Yeah, you could argue that we've you could argue that we've over doubled the amount of doj users even
I'm not sure. I actually that sounds definitely a combination of
And one thing to consider as well is just the fact that it is allowed what has become
You know way back in the day
Um has now become more current
You can do a lot of the things that you can do with defile with doj and doj chain
And now you can also do descriptions, which is the new hot thing on bitcoin. You can do that on doj as well
You could argue even the users that don't have a
That don't have a doj native wallet the proof of work wallet
I mean, these are doj addresses in a way because like if someone like for example
If you if someone sent you lightning network like bitcoin
But you were you would never use the base chain, but you were using
Uh a lightning network wallet and someone sent you lightning network bitcoin
And that is not making a new wallet on bitcoin. It is not so
Uh on the bitcoin main chain, but it's making you are having a wallet and address
There are ways to do it without making your own channel on the bitcoin network. Um
So does that I mean you would count lightning network wallets as bitcoin too, right?
I would if there were 10 million bitcoin wallets and 10 million lightning network separate wallets
Wouldn't you still probably a debate?
Bitcoin users. I mean isn't this a similar
Debates if you have that because it depends on where the transactions are taking place
But I think I get your point like whether you're using dojos doesh chain or core doj
You contribute into the ecosystem and you transact in value and that's a really positive thing
You know at some point with each of those transactions wherever it takes place
You know the the security and the use of the network is going out, which is a positive thing, right?
Yeah, I mean you could argue
this on bitcoin for um bitcoin, um, I think it was for
The new quantum cats or maybe it was taproot wizards. I think it was udi wordheimer. Actually, um, big big ordinals guy on the bitcoin side
Said that um when they did their mint or whatever and and their volume or something
They said they're the biggest uh, they're one of the the biggest like merchants that accept bitcoin now
I have a problem with his argument there of like the way he frames it
Um, but I can see his argument and so if you were to use his same argument
Then doj chain is probably the largest kind of merchant that accepts doj and the volume of doj because of how much
Transaction volume has gone through doj chain over the last, you know year and a half two years or whatever
Yeah, I was I was going to say i'm going to play the devil's advocate on the maxi side
uh, and I understand their point of view that they're
not happy about it because uh
Let's bitcoin or doj. Uh, their their
Opinion is that the vision is not
Is not that it's supposed to be a currency easily transactable
Uh specifically doj, you know cheap transaction fees fast
within a few minutes and uh, you know when there's a big mint and a lot of
DRC 20 trading on uh on doj coin it does tend to uh to clog up the network
And slow down transactions myself. I've I've
Uh tried to send like doj coin from a wallet to another not like
Do specific uh complicated stuff or anything like that
Took me 45 minutes to get a transaction
Going with the high transaction fee on on doj coin, which is crazy
You know something that doj coin never used to be is slow
Was always like a couple of minutes max and you got the doj
and uh, yeah dojinals have been problematic regarding that but
uh the demand for it you cannot go against demand for
The the the community and the market demands these uh assets to be active on the doj coin network
People love them people think that they're uh
First of all fun, uh, they can bring value to them. Uh, they are directly
Inscripted on the blockchain. So they remain in perpetuity on on the doj coin pow
Help scale this like what while the mint the ongoing mint we cannot do anything about that
We cannot help with that. Uh
Uh, the drc20 bridge that we're working on will act
As we will act as a sidechain
Um up in there. Um, I I actually think maybe that you're you're wrong on one part of this
Maybe not wrong, but maybe there is a further solution
I think there is a possibility that you could do a bulk mint
All and then bridge it over to doj chain in one transaction and then for example do a secondary mint on doj chain
Where individuals are now buying the the and minting the things but maybe the creators minted it originally
On doj proper and they do it as a bulk thing to minimize the the footprint on the blockchain
The reason I say this and I actually would like to have um and breezy's gotta stand up
But I the reason i'm saying this is like so there's ways we could get creative guys. So, um
one of the things that i'm seeing out there and you know, uh, this is actually a competitor to
Is it now I forget which one it is. Darn it is I don't think it's is it
Cardinals or maybe not but one of these is doing some kind of thing where they mint or they like they compress
30 transactions into one. Does anybody remember to know which one that is and they're they're kind of arguing that like
Dojanals that I think dojanals dogs uses is inefficient and I don't understand the argument
so I was trying to get one of them on the space to explain but it is important that even if like
A technology is one that we're using or that we love or whatever that we open our mind up and try to find solutions together
Um, and maybe there is like some ways we can improve this and make the footprint less on the doj blockchain
Yeah, man rock love the pfp dude. It looks great. But yeah, I was just gonna say
The the thing that's congesting the network is people are launching these drc 20s
And every time someone mints a drc 20 they have to it's an inscription right and every inscription
So if you're minting 21 trillion of these things
That's a lot of utxos and that's the issue
So casey rottimore the creator of ordinals theory comes out with a new token protocol. It's called runes
And it's not launching till after the havening
But he found a way to store these tokens on one utxo
So hopefully that's the solution
That would be great actually so uh, if you can store on a single
like a full mint collection minting or at least half if it's for example 10 000
Then that could uh reduce significantly the strain on the on the chain itself
a successful project that needs to
Uh and utility from these uh from these drc 20s
They can bridge them over to doge chain and use
All the goodies that evm evms provide
like, uh, you know royalties, uh
Bunch of stuff that you cannot really do on
On on dogecoin p.o.w. Uh because of its non-touring limitations non-touring complete limitations
Moreover, it's even more interesting. For example for for for tokens themselves like uh
Tokens that are trading and then they cannot actually
Trade in pools because you cannot create smart
contract pools on dogecoin
So you need to do like limit orders with double signatures, which is super tedious
if you actually want to to access real liquidity and
Decentralization. So yeah doing it on an evm bridging over the tokens. It's uh
Regarding scalability it takes away all the transactions from dogecoin onto a side chain where people can transact as much as they want
for example doge chain in the
At the beginning when uh when we had like a huge influx of of users and traders
600 plus meme coins launching on uh projects launching on the chain
Millions of transactions a single day and that would be
Quite impossible to to sustain on on dogecoin p.o.w. So that strain would be removed on doge chain
uh that which is highly scalable and uh
hyper fast instantaneously for like zero point zero zero one doge you you get a transaction done
I think a smart smart contract swap on quick swap is something like
second of all you you get these decentralized token pools where you can actually
provide liquidity to benefit from the
Transaction fees if you hold these tokens, you know a bunch of
Use cases opens up to you and uh, you get you get a bunch of things that you can do
Access defi and web3 with with your dogeinals, uh, which you cannot actually do currently
Oh, it looks like we lost uh rock. Actually, let me check the the dm's here. What's happening?
Yeah, he replied on the space said his phone died
Oh, i've just uh authorized him again guys, uh, i'm not sure if he's
Gonna come back or if that was an old one, but i've just reauthorized him. So just uh, give it a minute
I'm not seeing him. I think his phone really really died. But anyway, yeah, that's that's the the premise and uh
what breezy is saying here is uh
Is very interesting and uh, we hope this development to uh to hit soon
We are currently working on on on the bridge
Uh want to make it like foolproof so that uh, it it's fast in both ways
Very important for liquidity to go in and out
so that people can uh can actually
from uh arbitrage price price fluctuations, uh
different liquidities and uh
Everything that that's going on. Uh
Yeah, I was gonna you actually alluded to it, but wind bridge like approximately i'm getting excited, man
I want to know like like we've been talking about it for a while
Like, you know, I just want to like at least get some kind of an idea
But I know it's obviously not fair and then you see development and stuff like that
But like we're talking a month. We're talking a couple months. What are you thinking?
To be honest, I don't have a timeline exactly anything that I could say would be uh
Would be really speculating on it. It could be two weeks. It could be a month. Uh,
I'm not I really don't know. I'm assuming we're talking about the doge knows bridge
Yeah, I don't know how much of an update you gave
But I I had more in-depth calls with the the developers about it. Uh, actually late last night randomly
But um, they've maybe have found how to break through in finding a solution. So
There's actually two breakthroughs they're working on and hopefully one of them works
Um, okay, so there's like three timelines
Probably shouldn't give any but there's
like just just to clarify the technical side it why it's not as simple as uh,
As just bring bridging doge, uh onto uh onto doge doge chain
Uh when bridging doge is just you know, the doge goes into a a cold storage
And the smart contract on the chain mints w doge now when when uh,
drc 20 whether it's drc 20 tokens or drc 20 with uh,
Super data like images audio and everything
Uh, these are inscripted in in in each doge. That's uh,
That's on the dogecoin p.o.w blockchain and we need that exact index
for that exact doge coin so we are able to store it
When bridging in so and we mint the
The doge 20 token on the other side on doge chain
But this is much more important for bridging out
You know so that once you bridge it in you can also go out. Uh, and uh
This is this is the the main difficulty that that I guess is one of the currently facing
Yeah, one the indexing will help with speed right if you index it properly enough
Isn't this almost like providing a proof on either side sort of like what uh zk evm is trying to do?
No, i'm not sure exactly on the technical how that actually works
I know that the indexing is
Part of the problem because they have to go back and like I guess re index all of doge blocks
And transactions from the very beginning
Now looking for new information that they weren't previously looking for I guess like previously
They were only looking for like a generic doge movement, right and the utxo state or not state but the utxo set
Um, and now they need to like assign every single
Serial number from you know block one and that's taking like some crazy
I don't know. I don't think it's just computation
It's like, um, it's just like there are some there's some bottlenecks that even throwing more computer power at it doesn't solve
So like I guess one of the things they're doing is they're they're like parallel. Um indexing
Um, that's one thing they're doing now to try to speed it up and then there's uh, they may be able to use. Um
Like data from other indexers
And so we're we're, uh talking to some other teams about using some of their data and how we can like merge the data or something
weird, I I don't really understand it all but
Um, the timelines are like if we can do that one
It's like it could be done in just days if we with the parallel the new parallel, uh
indexing I guess they're doing it could be uh, say weeks
And if uh, if they're if the parallel indexing they are are experimenting with now doesn't work
Then it could be like I I don't know three to four weeks. Um is what the the current indexing is at
Then it's it's it's kind of load time is we still have three to four weeks left
which is way longer than we were expecting and a big disappointment, but
We have to do the safe thing. We have to make sure we do it right and we can't rush this
So yeah, i'm sorry that it's taking so long guys
But we're they're trying hard and working with multiple teams to try to um find some way to make it happen faster
But what's cool about it is uh, I mean, this is a huge win. I think for just
Doge dogeinals doge chain. Um, because while bitcoin has some of these bridges
Um to like ethereum and stuff we you know dogeinals
Really doesn't have any any good solution yet. So
Um, and I from my understanding it's not like even though doge is like a fork of a fork of a fork of bitcoin
Um, it's not exactly it's because it's not exactly the same as bitcoin. We can't just like straight up fork the stuff. That's
Uh, like used for bitcoin ordinals. So there are differences like and complications. So
Uh, that's where they're at. But yeah, it's like one of our top top priorities is trying to solve this
Some good news by the way is that I am talking to some
um doge foundation members about the stuff that we're doing and
Even though like I know in the past some of them were like pretty abrasive to us
um, they're they're way more open-minded now and even open to jumping on calls to try to figure this stuff out together and
And coming on spaces and things like that potentially so, um, I think that's really cool
I think they realized, you know, a lot of the foundation realizes like dogeinals
They're here to stay and we got to find solutions together, right?
We can't just fight each other and say how you know, oh you suck or oh you're you're bloating the chain
And now it's turning it is what doge chain what it's really it's like it's real
Like main proposition was that it brought smart contracts to doge
Scaling doge was always like a side benefit
But it wasn't really like the big benefit in the beginning a big thing
We talked about much because it kind of wasn't needed because doge was like so cheap and so much bandwidth
You know throughput and fast and so that wasn't like such a big win
It was more like bringing smart contracts and defi and nfts and stuff to doge
But now that dogeinals have like completely clogged the network
Uh doge chain is now being seen as a solution to to that that bloke and that that
Congestion and even some of the you know, you're seeing I don't know if you guys have seen it
But there's a lot of like doge maxis and doge community people and foundation people talking about like, maybe we need an l2
For doge or maybe we need a side chain for doge and then and we're just sitting here like yeah, we got you
Don't worry, we've been building this for two years come to the party, you know get in the water. It's the water's warm
And yeah, it's cool we're seeing a lot of people who are kind of abrasive previously who are like, okay
You know, maybe maybe you're onto something. Let's talk. It's really cool
Yeah, it's crazy because when we were speaking about uh, doge chain in the early days even before uh,
Before launching it they were like, uh, this is a scam. They're going to take your doge
You're giving your doge to these guys. You don't know who they are even though, uh, you know, we have like multiple
team members that have uh
track record in the industry and
Yeah, we're talking we're talking the car ass is not going to rug. Uh
Your doge or the founders of her anchor are not going to rug your doge or some kasimian
Is not going to rug your doge
uh, I mean, uh, these people are
Into the industry. But anyway, yeah, that was the premise and that was the discussion
But we were scammers and they were we were trying to take their doge
Instead of understanding that we're actually trying to scale doge and uh trying to bring smart contracts to people that are holding doge
Not just hold it and what's better hold it into
Um onto an evm where you can do stuff with it. You can mint nfts. You can uh provide it in
Liquidity pools you can trade with it. You can
Access defile lending protocols, etc with your doge
Or have it sit into robin hood and rot
Doing the entire bear market and they're lending they possibly are and I don't know if they do this with with crypto
But they definitely you know, and I'm not 100 sure that robin hood does this with stocks, but most of these
These brokers do this with stocks, which is they're lending out your assets and they're and then the people that are borrowing them are shorting them
Um, or they're like using their their possession of your assets to like leverage lend out your assets
Meaning they're lending out more than there are actually shares for right this happened with game stop where there was somehow more
Shares being shorted than there were shares in existence
Which just is mind-boggling like how can you short more shares than exist because you have to borrow shares to short them
So, um now there's I think been some laws that are kind of helping with this
Um, but like this naked shorting stuff this using your deal or your order. Um, what's the word?
I couldn't think of it on the last space either on another topic, but you're you're we were talking about privacy, but you're you're um
What is it called guys deal order flow where basically where robin hood the reason they're able to do zero fee transactions is because they are
Selling your trading data, uh in mass to big trading, you know
Quants and high frequency traders and funds and hedge funds and etc that are basically front running you so they see
That oh a thousand people are putting in orders to buy this asset
So that quickly within milliseconds is sent to some
You know quant or prop trading for some some trading firm somewhere and they are buying the asset before you do
Uh and through market makers and this whole network and they're getting and they're buying it and then you're getting a worse price
Now it looks to you like hey zero fee great
But in reality you're getting like either slippage or the price changed in front of you before you got the asset
So, um, you know, anyways, that's a side tangent
But yeah, I I think we should have and by the way, this actually also happens in
Mev, you know bots and things like that
But we are solving that and there's a lot of people working on solving that and at least it's transparent
And we know that it's happening in crypto and we could find solutions to it
Actually, we had some um people on the last spaces with the polygon and quick swap, you know
All roads do plug on space last, uh, you know for just before this space
And one of the things uh, one of the firms was talking about where the projects was talking about
Was they're building like privacy on top of transactions. And what that does is
You can't front run someone and you can't mev them if you don't know what the transaction actually is
And you can't also that's really protect cool because it protects people from these attack liquidations
So this is what happened to ftx. This is what happened to terra luna
So because people knew that terra luna like for example was like holding certain assets or that they were leveraged on certain things
Um that they knew that if they just target those assets
Uh that they could like push them past their liquidation point and they become insolvent and they have to file bankruptcy and they have to sell
Their assets so and then the the short so basically they short them and then they attack them
And that happens when you have a transparent ledger. Unfortunately, um, that's why big businesses hide their their trades, you know
And in crypto we have an issue with this because you can see the trades
But we can build privacy features on top of those things on top of these different
Things that protect people from those kind of instances. Okay side rant off
What was the question again
I have a tendency to distract us from that. No, no, we answered the question
It was it was uh, I think it was j5 asking for uh for a timeline
I was just saying win, but I love these history lessons and just updates from rock man. They're fucking awesome
Thanks j5 appreciate you man
Um, yeah, so dojano's bridge. I mean
Look it it really depends it could be under a week and it could be
Five weeks. I don't want to I don't want to say anything
It's just every time we give these timelines we we like we look stupid later. So
Uh, but we like feel like pressured because we're here on with the community and we want to we're excited and we want to like
And also our devs are optimistic
Uh, and they tell us the time and they're like we could do it. Don't worry
We know if we just stay up all night for, you know, a couple weeks
We'll get it done and then like, you know reality kicks in and we just don't get it done in time. So
Um, but I think the the cool thing is that once it is done, this is a huge huge win for for dojian
I think if we could, you know, look if we could get
Uh, like the foundation and many of these maxis that were skeptical of dojian
Before and are like, you know, they're kind of hating on dojianals now
If we could get them to say like look we we've been able to move most of this transaction
The day-to-day transactions the functional transactions like okay
Yeah, you mint on doj and that causes temporary congestion, but then after that don't worry
It all happens on those chain after this layer two kind of like, you know with bitcoin, right?
Like you have mining blocks and the bitcoins mined on bitcoin
But then it moves into say lightning network or liquid network or drive chains or bit vms or whatever
And and also even centralized exchanges which actually do take transactions off the chain, which is actually a positive but has many negatives too
But anyways, so if dojian can take all these transactions, you know, a lot of these transactions off chain
It might make maxis happy with dojian and happy with dojianals
Like okay, these dojianals aren't like hurting the chain as much as we thought because we found a solution
It's kind of similar to what jack said earlier. He made a couple examples. Uh, oh, um
Yeah, someone said like oh, well if we have like this population explosion, you know
It's going to destroy the world or like, you know people said like uh, yeah humans are growing populating too fast
We're gonna have starvation
People said that if the internet keeps growing at the rate it is that it's going to boil the oceans with the electricity will cause
You will use and that just never happened. Um, people said the same thing about bitcoin. It's not happening
You know bitcoin is going to destroy if bitcoin grows at a certain pace at the same pace
It'll use all the electricity in the world. We'll go to bitcoin. That's not happening. It's not even one percent
So we've the great thing is humans find solutions and I think dojian is one of these solutions to the ordinals congestion problem
Is like people are like well if dojianals just keep growing if they grow by 10x
You won't be able to use the doj blockchain anymore
It'll destroy the blockchain and I think if we can move stuff to doj chain then that that curbs that
And not just doj chain by the way, maybe they'll there'll be other hopefully layer I hope even if they're competitors
I hope there will be other solutions, you know
I think we need lightning network on on doj and I actually am in talks with one of the main people who's
Working on that. I think there will be a
Maybe drive chains or bitvm type stuff. Actually actually guys we're we're working on research here
Where we actually might try to use bitvm. These are like an optimistic. Okay, let me back up and tell you what they are
So there's a guy robin linus who's written this white paper, uh in the bitcoin ecosystem
Called um bit it's called bitvm and so bitvm does not require any kind of
Soft fork or hard fork. So like there was other ones in the past like drive chain, which is uh by paul stork
And paul stork, uh, but that one requires
One or I think two maybe one and or two, uh upgrades. So it's bit
bitcoin improvement proposal 300 and 301
And these if we if the community was to like, you know
Bet these and accept these and use a soft fork to actually
Enable this we could have these drive chains on bitcoin now for whatever reason it's been years and nobody's doing it
So either there's just not enough. Um community agreement on this
Maybe there's pros and cons to it and like in bitcoin lots of there's lots of proposals and
None of them go through right one out of like 100 or something go through because bitcoin is so people don't want to change it
With the bitcoin base chain, but anyways the cool thing about this bitvm structure
This this this protocol is and it's not being used yet because it's just not
commercially ready at all
Um, and it might not be ready for say six to nine six to twelve months or maybe there'll be an elementary form of it
Available sooner, but this bitvm by rott the white people by robin linus and there's other people
Super test and some others who are working on it a lot of teams who are experimenting with it including us
Is that this uses a type of optimistic roll-up?
uh to bitcoin and I think we could actually adopt that for uh,
doge and and um, uh, and you could call it like dogevm or something but um,
the yeah, the concept is basically you could have like optimistic roll-ups on top of bitcoin and
Those you can use those to bridge assets or to create side chains
What's really beautiful about this is we've already done the research
We've had our like different multiple teams actually looking at this and that
Um in our new infrastructure of moving to a bitcoin or a polygon cdk
Um, which would have like these trustless bridges between um, uh, you know, uh doge chain and eth and all ethl twos and all polygon chains
You will have that trustless side and then once we get once bitvm is more developed
We could actually adopt this and and make the make the doge and possibly dogeinals bridge that we're building
We can we can plug those pull those out and plug in this new, uh bitvm version
That would be even more trustless and even and and much, uh more decentralized and like like these
Optimistic roll-up proofs which are not like as good as zk roll-ups that we're doing with ethereum
But they're still really good optimistic roll-ups are a good
Compromise, uh is a very decentralized thing where there's like no
Custodian there's no one there's no way that uh, it could be like hacked or rubbed or whatnot. No way
There's always a way but anyways, it's a very interesting technology that we're exploring
So the cool thing is that as as doge chain goes on we can we can build out like even
It's mod. It's the new especially the new chain the way we're building this
With polygon cdk is very modular and there's a lot of parts to the stack
That's awesome, what's what about um, uh
In terms of like speed for optimistic roll-ups. Is there any difference? Like is there an advantage? Like I know there's a trade-off, right?
Um finality will will take longer, right? But um, what are we getting in exchange for that?
I'm just not familiar yet with that. Yeah, good question, man, dude
It's crazy penny that you know, I know you were you were in crypto for some time
But you were not a defi user and you know
You famously have said like you really just started digging into actual defi and on on chain stuff
You know when you found doge chain like, you know a year and a half or two ago or whatever
But man you've come so far that like yeah, that's an advanced question. But um, yeah, so okay optimistic roll-ups
There are issues with them. Um, so the difference between optimistic roll-up and zk roll-up. So the way an optimistic roll-up works is
We create these proofs we batch a bunch of transactions on what you know
An l2 or a side chain debatable and you know
There's a lot of debate actually in the bitcoin community about this right now
Which is kind of funny because this was already heavily debated in ethereum when polygon launched, you know
four years ago or whatever, uh
five well five years, you know, uh
Kind of what like white paper and launch and then test net maybe four year alpha
Uh alpha alpha main net like for you, whatever, you know, but anyways
Um, there was a lot of debate about side chain versus l2 and now you're seeing bitcoiners debating this and i'm debating this with
Some of these bitcoiners and saying like you guys we already have debated this for years in ethereum
It's kind of funny that they're just starting to debate this stuff now in bitcoin
It's actually kind of like how a lot of dojano stuff is being debated that was already debated on bitcoin ordinals, you know a year ago
Different communities are so like um siloed that they don't like actually look at what other communities have already kind of started to figure out
So we try to do that. But okay, so zk roll-ups and
Um an optimistic roll-up which is like optimism and arbitrum famously, uh, and now this bit vm for bitcoin
Uh is you can make these proofs you can do these transactions on on l2
And then you make a proof you submit it to the actual the l1
Which for arbitrum and optimism is ethereum and for uh, you know doj
Chain if we were to do this would be to doj
You submit the proof there and but it's there that proof could be a lie. Okay, it could be fake
But you have a you have a valid data network or a sequencer or a prover network
there's a bunch of pieces of the stack, but
So you have basically a bunch of people and these people
Um that are submitting the proofs are watching each other or community members even could be watching
and depending on this the way it's set up but
You all you need is one honest validator or one honest actor and and that actor can
And if every at least if everybody's watching
And there's a fake proof submitted
You have seven days before because that's why there's a seven-day window usually with these to withdraw
So you couldn't say take money from
let's use um optimism as an example, so
On optimism if you move funds from ethereum to optimism
And now you want it that can happen relatively fast
But if you want to take it off
Of optimism and put it back on ethereum if you want to bridge out take seven days
The reason is because you need seven days for people to be able to watch for fake these fake proofs
These falsified proofs and if someone does submit a false proof and then tries to double spend by exiting the chain
You got then as long as people are watching and someone says hey that guy lied that is wrong
Then that person gets all their funds taken basically or there's some kind of slashing depending on the what ecosystem
You know how they set it up
But the concept is if they lie
They get their money taken away from them and all you need is one person to catch the lie
That's optimistic rollups. Now that works. We're seeing like arbitrum is massive now billions of dollars lots of transactions
Optimism also getting big
There's big problems though with these that I mean one that's that's inefficient that
Uh, it's seven days to withdraw. No one wants to wait seven days to withdraw now
There's workarounds, but generally like yeah, you can't withdraw for seven days and that's a problem
The all other problem is what if someone doesn't catch it? It is entirely possible. Someone may not catch the transaction
And then people get their money taken
Um, that's unlikely I think but can happen. Okay
Now here's the biggest I think problem with optimistic rollups that zk rollups solve
And that's that if you wanted to have a l2 to l2 bridge or composability
Um, you know on say quick swap on top of it. I want to build a uh, an auto compounder like beefy finance
I have to be on the same chain
But if I want to be on a separate chain
That's not possible with optimistic rollups because that seven day window because each chain has their own like risk parameters now
But if it's a zk rollup where these are mathematical proofs
You don't have to prove that it's wrong because it's by definition correct because it's math. It's not trust
Um, then you can have uh l2 like infinitely many l2s in the world, which are kind of like shards
Like a ethereum 2.0 shards, but like in an l2 version of shards
So now you could have infinitely many l2s
Like horizontally scaling and they can build on top of each other in this big schmort amalgamation
Of l2s, but that are always there's zero like risk because I mean there's always some technical risk
But it by like the the concept is that there you don't have this like these mathematical proofs are you know?
It's provable and easily and quickly you could prove these even on a your phone
You can prove you can check that the proof is correct because it's such a small little proof
It's very easy to check the math even though it was incredibly hard to make the math
I'm getting a bit deep into the weeds, but yeah, so there's
Cons to optimistic rollups, um and zk rollups are superior
But for whatever reason no one's even looking at zk rollups for bitcoin yet
But they are like on the cusp it seems of these optimistic rollups and we can use those for doge chain to make a
trustless bridge and better bridges
More secure bridges from the doge main proof of work chain to doge chain
So so is it safe to uh, no that was an awesome explanation that went pretty pretty in-depth
So thanks, um, but yeah, so is it like is it safe to say that uh, you're essentially sacrificing time for increased security
with an optimistic rollup
Only if you're comparing it to itself
Like so like yes, you're you could do a one day window, but then what if someone treats you in one day?
That's why I think why they do seven days is like it gives you more time to catch the problem
So yeah, you give up convenience
And speed and your time to get a stronger security, uh level but the cool thing about zk rollups is
You don't need to give up time for security because they are by definition true statements because they're it's a zero knowledge
Like if if the proof is stamped to the chain it is done that is it is accurate and nobody can cheat it
Now when I say nobody look, I don't know could like some quantum computer or some weird hacker figure something out later
Maybe probably I don't know but
Um, but for what it's worth now
Zk proofs are like the holy grail of security
Right, that's those are my thoughts too on it, um for my understanding so far
Yeah, i'm super super excited and looking forward to uh doge chain 2.0 or zk evm personally
Yeah, how uh, like I got another question for you if I could
Will will like a lot of development be uh, uh shareable between chains on uh z that are on zk evm
Oh certainly big time. Yeah, so that's one of the beautiful things about polygon cdk is that
They made this crazy decision
They made this crazy, okay, what am I saying? Uh, not crazy decision. They made this incredibly
Decision to completely open source every part of their stack on day one
Like some people question that as a business move like it's like it's like spending and they literally spent a billion dollars to build
This but it's like if you imagine if a company spent a billion dollars to invent some new
Cure for cancer and then just said like hey, we're going to open source the the tech
We're not gonna we're not gonna patent it. We're not gonna hold license it
We're not gonna hold license it we're not gonna make any extra money from it
Like we will we will make money from it potentially but anybody else can come make money from it too at the same time
That's what polygon has done and that's the right way to do things in this industry
Um, it's it is questionable. It's like a business move to many people
I understand and even myself I had to like sit and think about it a bit and i'm still sitting thinking about like it
Um, you know, I talked to many people from their team including their ceo about it and others
Deb's who built this stuff and their kind of stance to me
I hope i'm allowed to share this but basically their stance to me is like look it's it's okay
Like I know it seems crazy and like because i'm like, well, you know
What is your thoughts on and I fully I love that they're doing this and I fight for open source
I've had these debates. I think I had this debate with like shibtoshi and some others on this same show
But uh, and I was the one fighting for open source, right? Um more more or less but
Um, I you know, I did have to ask them like so what are your thoughts?
I mean, okay, you just spent a billion dollars you built this technology
Now you're putting it out to the public and like linear mantel scroll optimist i'm arbitrary many of these guys can take your
Your your plonky two provers soon to be plonky three
And their new type one prover and aglier and all this stuff and they're fully open
I mean like fully opening sourcing this and they're even not only are they open sourcing it
They're trying to give the tooling and make it as easy as possible for other people to use it like they are and they're
They're going to other people and saying please take our technology
We want more people to use this because this is going to make they're like looking at it as a few things
Makes the whole ecosystem stronger and they're thinking look it's not about us competing with each other
It's about us competing with visa, right? It's about us competing with jp morgan
It's about us like building things for the whole world
And if we all build this stuff together and contribute to it together
Then we all become stronger and the pie grows much much larger
And and even though we're not sitting here having a little civil war fight to the death
Internally because that really in reality that's what we are
We're all internally this industry, right even if we're competitors in ways
Like I gave a shout out to uniswap today on the last spaces and you know, i'm co-founder quick swap, you know
Um, but I think that we need to grow the pie together. That's how they're thinking about it
And it's just a it's just a bold noble move and I think it makes the whole industry including like ethereum maxis that didn't like
Um polygon when it was a matic side chain and they were arguing that oh, it's not a true l2 and all this crap
But now like with these bold moves that they're making it's like impossible for any maxis to like not love
Uh, you know polygon now, actually if you guys saw I think I retweeted it the other day
Vitalik was actually having dinner with uh, send deep
uh founder of polygon and his mother and mahalo one of the uh, one of the uh,
new executives at polygon but um
Yeah, so okay then on now i'll now i'll get to the more like
Kind of savage business thinking side of it that they told me that I I hope is okay that I share
But is that they're they basically said look at yeah, we are giving everything out
But do you have to realize like it's like if you gave a
You know some kind of like quantum like spaceship technology to someone like if the aliens dropped off a spaceship on earth
They like we might not know how to fly it, right?
So like yes, they are giving this technology out
But they are the ones who built it and they know how to pilot this technology better than anyone else
And they're very the from these calls I have with them
They're like incredibly confident that they're going to execute with even though now
Everybody has access to the tech as it comes out
They're very confident that they're the ones that are going to know how to execute on it and
Also, they're building the next versions of it and those aren't out yet, right and but they're already building
You know for months before they're already building the next iteration and they're going to launch that
And so it'll always be the other people trying to catch up, right?
Because they're the ones building the technology as it comes out
But you know, these other people are just copying it and trying to figure it out on the fly, right?
and then the other big benefit to it is that other people are contributing to it now, so
Um, I forget some of the names of the teams
But there's several teams now many many teams actually that are not only taking the code from polygon
But because it's open source and fully like github and all this, you know, whatever dev stuff
There's other people now making commits making contributions reviewing the code adding their own like tooling on top of it
so like I saw there was just one recently that um some company that uh
built something on top of it for
Uh, like rust users to compile rust, you know programming code
And and polygon is also working on that with myden
But now a whole another company has built their implementation of it
So like it's it's very much like I coined the other day, you know last friday. We had um, the main core, uh
Product lead or engineering lead or what? I don't know exactly but brendan, uh farmer and paul
I forget his name but they're they're like two of the main architects of this ag layer that just came out in this
And at type one prover, I think brendan came from mir which became polygon zero
Which is the inventors of plonky and plonky two and soon to be plonky three this it's the most advanced prover in the world
Shoot what was I saying? Uh, I lost I lost my train of thought but uh
Let's see there develop anyways really cool stuff i'm excited for it
They're building they're building like most incredible like
Technology this industry this the most incredible technology scaling technology. I would argue this industry's ever seen
Arguably the only other thing I think that I would argue is maybe
As cool, um, but not getting um, maybe as much traction as I would like to see is lightning network for bitcoin
I think lightning network is actually way more advanced than people understand even though it's like growing
Relatively slow compared to some other stuff. Um, it is growing. I think it's up like
4000 over the last two years or something which is great to see year over year growth and yes
It's still only, you know a very small part of all bitcoin
Um, but I think lightning network actually is really incredible and advanced technology that I think people are underestimating right now
But yeah zk rollups are like they're like very very futuristic technology and very incredibly hard mathematical technology
You have to have the best mathematicians in the world to build this stuff. If I could just interject briefly, uh,
It'd be interesting to get your opinion on this and so
Yeah, can you repeat because you've got the code
I accidentally pressed me
So yeah in the 2021 ball one of the main narratives
Very popular was like ethereum killer, right?
There were all these like different protocols that that promised to be ethereum killers
Um given the state of layer 2 technology now and how far it's come
Do you think that the the idea of a layer what that competes with ethereum?
Directly is kind of like, you know gonna die off in the cycle or how do you see that whole thing playing out?
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you've heard me speak about this, but i've spoken about this
I mean, I think a little bit on this show about this, but yeah, I see
Okay, things change all the time, right? So what I may think one year may change the next year. So
Yes, that ethereum is this magical black hole of smart contracts that like all smart contract platforms
Like all l1s will migrate to become l2s of eth
We're already seeing that a lot
And that like people just like these l1s won't make as much sense because they're just not plugged into eth and that's where all the liquidity is
eth and its l2s have over a hundred billion in liquidity
And that's more than every other
L1 l2 anything in the world including lightning network all those combined
Xrp all these combined eth has eth and its l2s have more than all of them combined. Okay, that's pretty crazy, right?
I think that there is a new thing that may give that a run for its money
And that is changing that even though I think that's getting further and further like they're kind of pulling away now with the l2s
polygon optimism arbitrum on mantle linear scroll as you can see etc. All these are like incredible technologies, but
the one thing I think can actually give them a run for their money is
Bitcoin now with ordinals and then like to a lesser extent and you know to be fair here to a lesser extent doge as well
But you know, i'm sorry bitcoin is much bigger than doge, right? We all know this
But bitcoin as as a smart contract platform through its l2s
I think can also possibly give ethereum a run for its money
And I think that's a good thing
We need competition and we need lots of options for people in case one ever fails or gets co-opted by government or whatever
Or co-opted by its creators
It's good to have multiple
So now we'll have bitcoin and its l2s we'll have ethereum and its l2s we'll have doge and its l2s
And I hope there will be other doge l2s
I hope that doge chain is not the I mean look for for for business sake sure
It's nice that we're the only l2 of doge right now
But I think it's for the for the consumer and for the user and for the good of doge
I would think it would be great to see people invent new ways of doing this and having lots of different
Doge l2s and side chains to compete
And someone asked earlier
And now I remember what the question was when I had my my brain fart, but it was um
Do these uh do these different? Um, I don't remember exactly what the question was but it was do these uh,
Different projects like do they help each other? I think who asked that? What was the exact question?
Yeah, no, that was me like, um, for instance, like what basically what i'm asking is is um
Can a lot of the development like different chains that are part of the zk evm ecosystem?
Anything that they're developing, uh, is it modular enough to uh, you know easily integrate to
Any other chains working on zk evm like is that going to benefit are we going to be able to benefit from shared resources?
Um, like I guess I could try to give some examples like manta is building a lot of privacy-based stuff
So whatever they build that's privacy-based that that doge chain likes or another zk evm or cdk chain likes
We could integrate some of those privacy features. Um, like let's use an example of like
uh eip 1 5 5 9 which is uh
Uh, you know burning small amount of every transaction like we can take that that's coming from an ethyl one
So maybe not directly to your question
But yeah, absolutely every chain that builds some new cool thing even at the protocol level
At the l2 level at the dap level, right? We can take all of these different things and and then adopt them
Um, so yeah, certainly it's and and in particularly yes with the l2s and the cdk stuff it is
Modularly so that we can plug in and plug out pieces of the stack. So
Um, if like right now, right the the gas, uh for the new chain will be w doge
Uh that goes through the native bridge that we built. Well if later on we're able to get a bit vm
Um like style a bridge that's even more secure then we can now take that
Uh that that style of rap doge whatever that's called
Uh, and then we can either make both the gas together so the user can choose which which bridge they like more
We could do a vote and like replace this current rap doge with that rap doge if if the community thinks it's strong enough
You know, and so yeah, we can definitely plug in different pieces. There's other things we're exploring, too
There's a babylon technology that we're exploring which is like restaking for bitcoin
And I think that possibly has some interesting stuff that maybe we can implement here
Um, there's uh, I know that
Actually as tech from the lda team, um who wrote up and and filmed a big presentation
Uh, he said like a 20 minute presentation, uh that he wants me to watch when I get a sec
He sent me when I was going to sleep, but uh, he sent me this big presentation about some new technologies
He's exploring that are like no one's using it all that he thinks that we could possibly
Build out that would be very interesting
So yeah, we're like constantly trying to find the next best, you know thing that gets us either whatever we need, right?
Humans, like I said are good at solving problems. So we're trying to solve scaling. We're trying to solve
Um decentralization may always make things more decentralized
Um, we're trying to solve for private. We're trying to make things more private for for users to have that optionality
Um, we're trying to solve this doge congestion for doge, you know
Um, there's always some new thing we're trying to solve and improve
Awesome and and by comparison i'm just out of curiosity how many other chains are currently operating on uh,
The existing edge framework that we're using from polygon. Um, not very many not very many
Yeah, there were like a bunch that started developing
Uh when it was launched when we adopted it at first
But yeah, the edge itself it had some issues
It was very very bold it was really it was really
created for more for like app chains instead of like standalone chains and
So, yeah, if you want to run, uh dex for example on uh on a
separate chain and then link it together, but the issue is that people dropped off because uh
Initially polygon was saying that they would you know use
integrate like edge into uh
Uh a kind of a supernet thing where everything would be interoperable, but that never came actually
a lot of these builders that were
Uh, I know immutable was considering edge at one point, but they they shifted on to zkvm instead
Yeah, I think it's like they were they're they like us they they follow different threads, right?
A bunch of promising things that are coming out at all times and so they want to build on different things like, you know
Matic started as plasma then it then it became plasma slash pos
at the current state the the matic pos chain is like
Say 99 percent pos 1 plasma it uses both actually, but it's mostly pos at this point
That's what the they kind of figured was just the best bed in the community
They actually tried to push hard for plasma at first and actually it was largely a big part of it was quick swap
Who made the decision of pos? Actually, it was samip my co-founder at quick swap
Um, I know that that he was telling me a story the other day
I didn't actually even fully understand this before but he was telling me that in the beginning
You know the polygon developers and team were really pushing us at quick swap
to focus on the plasma bridging and plasma assets and
Samip just like told him like guys. I disagree with you. This is not the way to go
I don't think it's going to scale
I don't think it's going to work and they listened to him and they they all worked on it together and they kept trying and
Trying different things and eventually it turned out, you know
That was just the way the market went and it might actually be
Partially just because quick swap was the biggest decks and biggest application and kind of chose to go this way
And so many people followed us
Because whatever assets you could trade on quick swap
Well, you know if ave comes they're not going to make they're not going to do a plasma asset
That's you can't trade on quick swap because you know, it wouldn't make sense
They wouldn't be interrupt. They wouldn't be
You know tradable together
You wouldn't be able to trade for an asset on quick swap and then put it into ave, right?
So like at the end of the day
Sometimes it's just how the first movers act and because quick swap acted and chose certain way of doing things
Maybe that the polygon whole ecosystem moved that way. But
Um, anyways, it was the right decision by the way
And I think polygon polygon knew that too and they were they were uncertain at first too
I think a lot of the reason they were really pushing for plasma was because plasma was like
It was a lot of like kind of narrative of like the eth community
Like were against matic at first, you know largely because they were like, oh this is fake. This is a side chain
But plasma was you know much more like real l2 kind of feeling
Um, or at least arguably so I think it's like stupid argument to be honest
And doe's chain technically is more of a side chain than an l2
So maybe i'm biased but um, I don't think that that matters so much and we're seeing the bitcoin community a lot of debate about
This right now and a lot of people are like in bitcoin community people are way more open to side chains because they never really
early on like historically there was a lot more talk about side chains in the bitcoin ecosystem than l2's
And side chain had a different connotation in the bitcoin community in the in the ethereum community
Side chain took on a negative connotation and l2 took on the positive connotation in the bitcoin community
Side chains actually for a long time took on a positive connotation
There was these elemental side chains that people were trying to invent. There's drive chain
There's all these different
And now they're everyone's debating and even the best people in bitcoin you literally talked listen to them on these spaces and like
Nobody knows they're like, well is that I mean literally I just listened to a whole space for you know
A whole hour they were talking about like our is lightning network. That's an l2. Okay. Well is uh,
Our drive chains will bit vm assets will those be side chains or l2s
Some people were like even saying I think it was uh, maybe eric wall. Um
I forget who was saying, okay
Like is are the eth are the bitcoin etf?
Are those an l2 of bitcoin because depending on how you define l2
There's lots of things you can consider l2s of bitcoin someone even on this space said, you know
Is ethan l2 of bitcoin and my argument and I said this publicly on my interview with kitko
Uh that I said eth is an l2 of bitcoin in my opinion now
You can argue technically is it a side chain or an l2?
I don't give a shit honestly
but it is to me some kind of either side chain or l2 of bitcoin because
Guess what more bitcoin is transacted through rap bitcoin, uh by bitgo on ethereum than on the entire lightning network combined. So
Uh, yes, eth is l2 of bitcoin and I think polygon is an l3 of bitcoin because it's an l2 of polygon
Um, but yeah, these definitions are are weird
uh, and we can debate them all day, but
Again, I forgot what the original question was but uh eight bit you have your hand up. Yeah, it is man
Wonderful conversation guys. Um really enjoying that came over from bitcoin orders myself
So here in that conversation regarding like zero knowledge proofs, bro in the middle of the day. I love it man
I really do and guys this opens up like a myriad of like use cases and applications, man
It's like from like voting systems with governance and dows to even like confidential automated like financial agreements
So very important conversation to have and but guys if you could just uh clue me in here
I didn't know that the polygon edge even existed before this conversation. Could you just explain that to me real quick?
Yeah, so polygon doesn't really exist anymore. Well, it it has been deprecated
So it didn't exist but uh, well the support for it has been deprecated. They're not continuing to upgrade it anymore
And so but yeah, yeah, you're you're kind of right. So edge
Okay, matic evolved from being this what I said plasma, right?
A plasma scaling chain to plasma and pos to mostly pos side chain with this multisig bridge
uh, which actually uh quick swap is one of the multisigs for
And there's a whole committee and things but um, so okay, and it's all big projects, you know and stuff
but um, anyways, so then it evolved to that then it evolved to
Um, then when it rebranded from matic to polygon
That at that point, uh, the narrative changed from it's a chain a side chain or an l2 whatever you want to argue
um, it changed from being that to now a suite of chains of of
Polygon built suite of chains meaning it would be this pos chain
Which will now eventually become a valedium
Which is a true l2 now or more of a trail to or whatever but uh, and then they are launching their ckevm
flagship chain, right and then they were building, um nightfall with ernst and young which was uh,
Their like privacy their institutional grade privacy chain with, you know, one of the big four accounting firms
And then they were building might in which is like a rust implementation. Um, which is a common which is a really used, you know
In the world, um programming language and it's what like cosmos ecosystem uses so now cosmos chains can possibly use that
Anyways, um, so then so basically, okay from going from matic to polygon
It became this suite of different chains and mostly they were going to build these chains
At first it was seeming like they were going to build all these chains and then like so that now they don't get left behind
Like okay plasma pos maybe gets obsoleted. Well now paulmatic dies
Well, no that can't happen now because they just have other chains for the new technologies like zk rollups, etc
Might in you know and all these different, you know types of things
Then it evolved even further to becoming this polygon 2.0
It's not just that polygon builds these chains
It's that they are going to now give technology out so other people can deploy chains
And then they would start shifting to becoming more of a uh, a technology builder
And like like linux or something which I coined recently that you know, polygon is now like the linux of web3
I I said that with brandon farmer on when he was the creator of aglayer
Um, but anyways last week
But anyway, so now that's where they've moved and somewhere in that timeline
They released edge with a vision for supernets
Edge was this client that anybody could download and anybody could launch a chain
Kind of easily. It wasn't actually as easy as we were hoping but you know, anyone could kind of launch this edge framework chain
that they've put out and then the goal was that edge would be could plug you into supernets and supernets would be
Some kind of iteration of a multi-chain like where you can like, okay
Let's say doe's chain has an edge chain and then you know, I think there were who else was building one
Um, I can't forget the teams. I remember the teams, but anyways, if another team, you know, whatever shabarium
What they don't they're not on edge, but let's say they were
Uh, then I think they are I think they are it's a modified version. Seriously, I believe
I had no idea that's very interesting. All right. Well the newest one ryoshi chain is ryoshi chain
Or no ryoshi chain is gonna be cdk. What was immutable using polygon edge?
No, they used a very very modified
They were starting with that like they were testing that but I they ended up going with like something completely different
Like and again, so cdk is modular. So there's lots of ways you can do it
um, we'll go into that in a bit but
Um, yeah, so edge was this framework that you can build on you could build a your own standalone
Kind of like ivan said it was more
Built for like app chains and this app chain vision of like, you know
One app per chain kind of thing or maybe a couple apps on a chain kind of like how cosmos more is
Um, and then supernets was what was going to connect them like through supernets
You would be able to like bridge between these chains
Now they went on that for some time and then they figured out like this zk evm and you know cdk
And then now most recently ag layer and lxl ybridge, which is just like infinitely more advanced in a way better way of doing things
And so they've basically given up on like let go of the edge
The edge stuff and supernet stuff and moved to this way way way better implementation with zk via zk rollups and
Cdk and now you can build any of these chains and they can all connect and talk to each other
And so that's why if you know as they're deprecating that we're also
You know in our community voted for us to move to cdk now the more advanced technology. Um
If that yeah, I hope answers your question, dude, that was fucking phenomenal rock
Thanks a bit I like your energy man
Yeah, I appreciate you man. Like i'll be honest with you
I've been listening to your spaces now for like about a month or two, bro
To join you guys on this space right here right now, man
I feel like we're the future dude
Like it's guys like us that are having these spaces having these important conversations, bro
And like you said they're happening at the same exact time on bitcoin. This is very important, bro. Let's keep it going rock
Yeah, yeah, hell yeah, man
Yeah, so the world is changing i'm i'm very optimistic
Uh, this space evolved so fast, right like edge and supernets were like the cutting edge thing when we first built those chains
We were the I think we were the first edge chain and we were by far the biggest ever edge chain
Um, but you know now hopefully we can become the biggest cdk chain
Which will be hard by the way because like manta already has 600 million in tvl
Okay, x is launching theirs and there some days the second or third largest spot
Uh volume in the world. Okay, x and now they're building their version of like, you know, like coin
So binance made binance smart chain, which is a fork of ethereum. Basically, uh, a d
Coinbase made base which is on the op stack which is a layer two of ethereum
Uh, but uses the op stack and now okay x which is actually more volume than coinbase
Uh is using polygon cdk and so we'll be able to plug in with them
So yeah, there's going to be a strong competition and it doesn't matter
We don't have to be number one of all the cdk chains someday
You know jp morgan's going to have a cdk chain
So whatever it is what it is, but we we will be the biggest doge l2. I I can i'm confident in that
It's funny to say that rock because I was looking at um
Just some of the this the node requirements that are out there for the zk nodes, right and they obviously have the prover
Um, and just it was interesting to see the parallels in the x1 chain on okay x
That's literally like some of the actual instructions are literal forks of the polygon. Uh, zk evm, right?
So it's interesting stuff like but yeah, just that's the point. That's why they're giving it technology out. Yeah, go ahead
No, no, we're on same page
like literally the more we the more that actually join this the more the technology is going to further because everyone's going to be developing
In unison and actually making a better product
But I guess the underlying factor or layer is that they're going to have security baked in because that's one of the things that's being
Created like at this base layer, right? So but no, it's freaking awesome
The more you start seeing this and obviously like, um, okay x picking this up and actually making it part of their development process for chains
Right, like no, bro. I'm with you
This is some crazy shit and people are not really looking at zk yet as they should but they will
because this is all going to basically intertie it all in the back and like you said the
The um the access to that liquidity that's out there bro, so i'm fucking stoked man
I'm telling you i've been waiting for this for a while
So like every time we keep talking about it, i'm just like trying to not touch something, you know
Yeah, you said it really well there actually is that it brings it all together and that's what they're saying
They're unifying this like value layer of the internet, which is really cool, which is like, okay
So when when we started we had bitcoin right and then bitcoin was just one chain
Everybody was on the same chain
Then you started getting all these other chains, right and that started splintering the liquidity because you can't communicate between these chains
Very well, actually last night. I was on on a call with uh
One of the 12 people that satoshi sent the white paper to before it even got published on on the forums
Uh, and he was explaining to me some of this history and uh, really incredible guy, uh, but his son
Uh is one of the monero cordebs and his son actually was one of the ones that just built what I didn't even know
This was out, but apparently it's out and it's in it's in mastering monero, which is a digital book that can be updated quickly
His son pseudonymously is referenced there. But anyway, so the uh, so this ding his son and you know
The monero team built is made finally atomic swaps
So you could do an atomic swap apparently between bitcoin and monero, which I hadn't heard so that kind of
Kind of not shits on but counters what I just said that these chains can't communicate
Um, they're not good at communicating, but we're inventing ways for them to communicate through like, uh,
Atomic swaps which we've theorized in bitcoin for 10 years. We've been talking about atomic swaps someday. Maybe longer
Um, and then lightning network was theorized that we can use lightning network for atomic swaps. Um
If other networks build lightning network, but you know
They have they have to they have to solve um this thing called transaction malleability
And then if they do that through like bitcoin did it with segwit, man, i'm getting two in the weeds, but basically
It's very hard for chains dude i'll wish you though keep rocking go go
It's very hard for these chains to communicate and the point of that is now all these aetherium
So even when you went to eth
So you splinter liquidity by having all these chains, right?
Cardano and bitcoin and aetherium and salona and they don't talk to each other and all their liquidity splinter
And so you got to keep re every time a new chain launches
You got to spend millions of dollars to build up that liquidity so that you can have a good user experience
But if we have a way that we could unify these these different chains and that's what polyons ag layer does
And it's crazy, but not only ethl twos, which is like in itself is amazing, right? You can now unify
Arbitrum and optimism even they're saying they're it can use this and they're encouraging them
They want arbitrum and optimism to use their tech and unify everyone
So that everyone can have these trust that's the key too
It's not like one big, you know central bank or something or one big world order that unifies everything and takes
You know rent from everyone they're actually saying no arbitrum and optimism can use our tech
Use our ag layer and they don't even have to pay us any fees or rent. We don't we don't require anything like that
But it can bring all these things together and when it's fully fleshed out, which isn't going to happen
You know that could be some time still but you'll be able to build like I said quick swap or uniswap on one
L2 or even ethl 1 uh, and then you'll be able to build something else
Right like an auto compounder an automated liquidity manager
Uh a leverage pit trading position order book system a liquidity hub all a lot of the things we've already built on quick swap
But and but those all have to be on one chain
But with this ag layer you could build them any chain can have app different applications
They still can work on top of each other this defy lego composability concept
Even on a different chain
So you start all this liquidity that over the last 15 years from the iteration of new chains has been splintered more and more
Every new chain splinters the liquidity it divides the liquidity
But now we are we have a way to tie to stitch all of that liquidity across the ecosystems together
And what's really crazy and I don't know enough about this yet
But apparently with their new type one prover they just invented and with their ag layer
There is a way that you could even tie l1s into this which that I don't know anything about yet
I asked them a lot of questions about it and it's all very
Over my head still but um that actually is very interesting because like what does that mean?
Does that mean we can plug in I think they mentioned it had to be evm
So but but then you can maybe plug in binance smart chain
Can you plug in tron if if uh, solana makes some kind of evm version or you know sidechain or something?
Can you now plug in maybe solana into this?
Um, so very interesting and that really matters for us by by the way
Yo, bro, what's up? Yo, yo in the hotel
This guy loves your own knowledge proofs man. I can hear his voice
Um, so what's you guys the reason that's really interesting for us is this is new news to us
Uh that this new type one prover that they've invented that it's like some huge breakthrough apparently it actually
Potentially can make it so that doge chain doesn't have to migrate to a doge chain 2.0
We can maybe just upgrade to a doge chain 2.0. What that means is
Maybe and I don't want to get people's hopes up because we are not we're very early in conversations here
And it's still not like fully rolled out and still not fully like in its final state
Like having to make everyone move to this new chain
Which is what we're going to have to do like meaning all smart contracts all developers and everything has to either be
Relaunched or bridged or air dropped or snap shot it or whatever
Um, it is there's some possibility a non-zero possibility. I don't want to get people's hopes up
but there is a possibility we might be able to just fork doge chain if the community votes to do so and then
Not have to migrate everyone. So I look I don't want to get people's hopes up, but that
These technologies are changing so fast
So yeah, this is this is definitely very interesting and we're looking into it
Good run today. We've been on for two and a half hours. We uh,
Went over the the scaling of of dogecoin and uh in depth of the
Which is by the way in testing currently, so
Eventually, you will be able to uh to play around with the with the zk don't change the kvm testnet
In the near future we will be that's almost ready. I think they just gave an update on that item, right?
Yeah, it's it's almost ready. They're working on the documentation because
We can't launch a testnet without docs
uh, but it's it's much simpler than
These are like uh provers. You don't need to run a node or anything like that. So, uh
It's a it's a simple premise then then on a pos chain if you want to run a validator or
You need to run a node or anything like that
Yeah, the these docs are in in production currently
The stack that we are actually releasing to the public
uh, and initially people will be able to
Uh to use eth on seepolia for for gas
Uh to test out their their smart contract deployments for this
Eventually, uh, we are waiting for
polygon to release a major update actually on for zkvm cdk
Which is the custom token
Where we will be using rob doge, of course, uh, which is the the main narrative for uh,
Doge chain providing utility and doge's gas
Which will be the case for zkvm as well. And uh, yeah, we'll keep you guys posted. Uh
In the in the next few days, uh, and as soon as we post the the documentations
We'll uh, do you want ivan you want to tell them that when that update is uh supposed to go live
It was supposed to go live last month, but they they delayed but now ivan
Do you want to give them the drum roll when that update is supposed to go live? Hopefully
Do you really want me to do that again?
If it doesn't come out of there's a there's an issue
Just blame ivan guys. I I did not give any updates on timelines last time actually
I even told ivan bro. Let's not give any updates because we know we won't hit them
We know there'll be some weird delay. I'm just relaying what the devs are telling me, man
I'm just giving you shit, man
I know right now. I'm just I'm just relaying what the what the devs are telling me. So, uh, yeah
Uh, i'm the first one, uh to get blamed but yeah, it's not my fault hang them guys
Get him get in his comments
Spam him on telegram and then discorded on twitter
Somebody makes some memes about how he he's he's lying about the dev timelines. Get him guys. Go after yeah
Go after me. Yeah, i'm open
The number of i'm going to start getting death threats again in telegram those were fun
Hey, did anyone ever make that someone was making some funny memes last week? Uh,
What were they so did anyone make that elon elon putting a neural link chip in in my butt?
Baby yoda made the the me
in a in a superman suit, uh
Jet ski to save astex wife or whatever which I told that story last week. I think
We love we love the the memes guys. Keep them coming
Oh my god. Do you guys remember? Oh my god, we should post some of the early ones when uh,
there was a time where the price of doze chain was going down and people were putting uh,
people were making um, like
What was it like isis like photoshopping my face into like isis cutting people's heads off and hanging people
Did you guys I I know that some people were like i'm so sorry
They're doing that to you rock and like yeah, i'm sorry. You have to go through that and look dude
I've been in crypto for almost a decade
I understand that every time the price of any asset
You're involved in goes up people love you and when it goes down they hate you
So i'm like i've grown a thick skin when people made those those
Those memes I actually thought it was pretty funny. I didn't didn't bother me
So I know people were DMing me like i'm so sorry rock that they're doing this to you
Like do you feel threatened and i'm like, dude, what what are they gonna you know, it's just memes guys. I
But uh, I should post those those were kind of
Maybe I shouldn't say they're funny, but they were kind of when I saw them. I kind of laughed
They were kind of creative the way they did it there was some with like me me or like some some
Dose chain contributors as judith
Betraying jesus like or something. There was a bunch of there was a bunch of them. They were they were clever i'll say
Yeah, I think they were high effort as far as they were good
Yeah, definitely. I think the one I remember that was pretty good was when all the um
All the senate and the roman senate as it was stop stopping. Julius Caesar
Oh, yeah, it was like the doze chain logo or something and yeah, those were bad. They were good
It was funny man. I I shouldn't joke, but uh, you know, we shouldn't condone
Uh people doing violent memes, but uh, it was it was kind of funny
Death yeah, okay guys one day one day we should get the good vibes. Let's get back to the good vibes of this
We love the point one day though
Isis and then the then the other day it's the next day. It's like, you know me in a superman suit
Everything is great. Yeah
Composition those to get these uh prices are volatile in crypto but so are people's mindsets, you know, so yeah, I guess
Once you've been through enough enough, uh cycles you you really start to like the volatility stops affecting you
Like bitcoin could go down today at a 40k and I would not it would not change my day
It would not even I wouldn't even like bat an eye
Uh, I used to really it used to be a barometer of my happiness and Cindy would know she'd be like
Did bitcoin go down today? All right, and and i'm like, yeah
Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't affect me either anymore
These things go up and down so often you just totally you get desensitized
Okay, yeah, let's be real quick. Sorry that I showed up a little bit late. Um, i'm on a different uh time or something
I don't know what's going on with me. But uh, anyways, I just wanted to just announce a couple things. So
Uh, my wife tori warrior princess, uh, you'll see her in the chat as a free range cucks
I think she was trying to get in she had her uh, she finally released her her cucks on to
Onto uh dojanals this past week on tuesday. Okay. Nice
Nice, congrats. Yeah, we were excited about that. I put a link to the
Website in the chat and then also the other thing I wanted to mention is that I did it
So I run a youtube channel that I just started a little less than three weeks ago and I did an instructional video
Uh that it probably went a little overboard. I went over the history of inscriptions, uh talking about bitcoin ordinals and then the transition to doge joint
To uh doge sorry dogecoin ordinals or dojanals and I did like a walkthrough step by step video on how people can buy them. So
Just uh, there's a link tonight and the next iteration once we have our dojanals bridge
You'll have to have the third iteration is doge, you know bridging your dojanals to doge chain
But yes, uh, let's let's put the video up in the jumbotron
Let's get him some views guys on the so this is the history of like bitcoin ordinals to dojanals
Yeah, so I actually put the link to my channel there
But if you want I can uh, I can also put the links to the video. I don't see it
I mean up in the jumbotron not in the comments. Let's make it so everyone can see it
Okay. Um, how do I do that?
Uh, that's just go to the tweet go to the tweet in question
And uh you share it and the first uh option that it will give you is the spaces
So just go to the tweet that you you already posted and uh
Tap share and then just choose the spaces. Wow. It's that easy. I've never i've always wondered and
I'm like either you or jack darren or everyone does it and I just never knew how to do it
So now I learned something. All right, i'm gonna go grab the link and and do that and uh,
Let's do some shout outs in the
In the meantime. Yeah. Thanks everybody for joining me this week
technical troubles this time around as well
It seems to happen like every two weeks or something like that. We have like
Thanks to jack for hosting it and then picking up the the slack because it just wasn't going out
Out correctly from my phone. I tried two times
But anyway, thanks, uh after these two rugs for joining. Uh
I think there were like at peak time
300 plus people listening in I guess people started to get bored
We've been around for two and a half hours and thanks everybody for joining all the dojano dogs. Uh, pfp is here that i'm seeing in the
In the in the audience, uh bark is here
uh leading the the the way j5 in the speakers penny, of course with uh, his uh
Real dogepunks on dot chain check those out as well. Those are like the og
Nft collection on uh on dot chain pretty cool stuff
We have addict k9. I accidentally thumbs down wait really quick. So what you could you could actually compare these there's actually several
Uh dojanels dogs and they're they're the two in my opinion the two best
Uh doge like nft ordinals collection. So like compare the two like so mine
Is a dojanels dog my wizard and el duderino here. That's an rdp and uh,
I don't know what your order looks like but penny bags there. That's an rdp. Uh, then you have j5
That's a dojanels dog bark. Obviously dojanels dog. You got addict elisa levels reefly savage loose
Canine a bunch of dojanels. Uh a bunch of dojanels dogs, man
What's up rdp's dojanels dogs are showing you guys up. There's way more dojanels dogs today than rdp's
We got to get the rdp's over here
I think uh, we need to to push a little bit more in that community. Whoever is uh, penny should be doing that
It's fine. We have also the
Looks like people are dropping up. Oh, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Some uh, drug huskies here
We have the defy edek kun who is from the drug huskies always an ambassador for dc always
At the front lines. Thanks for attending again. We have
you know, chewy swap is uh
Decks on both shiberium and uh, don't shame heimdall
Flexman ft bitcoin mlk mlk pal
to fresh crypto for live exit, uh, the creator of
aubergine and a bunch of meme tokens, uh on
Uh on dojian unfathomable flakas gysa from the dc ambassadors as well and the tdh
Darius dot sadz brahim kaisey matrix dog name druid xpal
Queen of dojianos queen of dojjian. Sorry, uh extra tutorial, uh ileo gonzalez kn um
Mono tr and there's uh 75 six other listeners that I actually am not seeing them
Because i'm an android hammer star
uh, so thank you everybody for joining in and uh
Hey, uh, go since thank you. Did you manage to uh?
Uh, yeah, I did. I I got the um, I don't know if you guys can see it. I followed uh rocks instructions
I put it up on the top for you. You had it in the in the uh, the actual post but it was in the uh comments
Yeah, but it's all good. I did it for you, bro
Awesome. Thank you so much. So yeah that uh
Yeah, that will appear in the recording as well. So, uh
It will uh for people when they're they're re-listening to the to the spaces from today. They will see the the post as well
Oh awesome. Yeah, like I said, there's a history of ordinals in there
I went all the way back to bitcoin ordinals, but uh, you know, it was like battle of the ordinals and dojianos won
Of course right of course, yeah, of course
So thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you everybody. Yeah, I can see the post now. There's the youtube video
Thanks. Uh, thanks for your service by the way and uh providing all these uh educational videos
Hope you uh break it strong into uh
It's yeah. Thank you. I love that. I love the uh polygon and and uh dogecoin spaces. They're awesome
Huge effort there man on your side. I hope you make it big on youtube. I watched it. Uh,
I watched it last night. Actually, it was really really well done. All right. Thanks everybody. Uh, this has been
Episode 76 and we'll see you next week with 77
Yep, thanks everybody have a great weekend
Thanks, enjoy your weekend