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Secret Spaces with Special Guest @oct_network!
Recorded: Nov. 21, 2023 Duration: 1:02:49Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello, everyone.
Hey, Vivi, how's it going?
Hi, hi, Patrick.
Very well.
Happy holiday season for everyone.
Yes, just a couple more days for the U.S. at least.
Thanksgiving coming up.
Yes, indeed.
Cool.
I see Alex and Lisa also in the audience.
Yes, bringing them up on stage now.
Cool.
All right, I think we have all our speakers on stage.
Let's just give it a couple more minutes while we get these announcements out.
And we'll get started.
Sounds good.
Okay, so thank you.
Let's see.
Hello.
Thanks Canada.
Here.
Here we go.
Bye.
First.
Look at the date the date that'siosa.
I'm having some trouble with my audio, so I'm just checking if I can hear anyone.
Can someone say something?
Hey, can you hear me?
Yes.
Great.
Hi, Lisa.
We can hear you very well.
You sound very clear.
Nice to see you.
Nice to hear you again.
Great.
All right, let's go ahead and kick this off then.
Welcome to Secret Spaces, everybody.
Thanks for joining us.
Secret Spaces is a weekly Twitter space featuring contributors to Secret Network and news from around the ecosystem.
Today we have an awesome guest with us.
We have the Octopus Network team.
We recently announced a partnership with them at NeerCon.
We have Alex and Lisa as well from the Secret side.
We're going to talk about what this partnership consists of and what it means for the future of Secret and for Octopus Network and for the Cosmos and Neer ecosystems as a whole.
Awesome space for you today.
Let's go ahead and get started with some introductions.
Octopus Network, do you want to go first?
Hello.
Hello.
Hi, Patrick.
Hi, Alex.
Hi, Lisa.
Hi, everyone.
Yeah, this is really a great, exciting news for both of us.
And then our two teams also we met in NeerCon at Lisbon, you know, great, great, great experience.
So, okay.
My name is Vivi.
I'm a partner and head of media for Octopus Network and very happy to do the Twitter spaces with all of you.
And thank you, Secret Network for inviting us to your space.
And this is really, really exciting.
Okay.
So I will pass the mic to our founders, Luis and Julian, and then we're back to Patrick.
Luis, would you like to go ahead?
Thank you, Vivi.
Go ahead.
Hi, Patrick, Alex, Lisa.
Happy to continue our conversation in this public and interesting way.
And I'm Luis, co-founder of Octopus and also sit at the position of CEO.
So I'm, let's say, a crypto OG LLC.
I joined the jump in crypto space 10 years before.
And about five years ago, I, with Julian and a few other blockchain developers, form a team to work on blockchain interoperability area.
And after about two years, we formally start the journey of Octopus.
Okay.
That's all for my introduction.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi, Julian.
We can hear you.
Hello.
Hello, Patrick, Alex, and Lisa.
I'm Julian.
I'm the software architect of the Octopus Network.
A brief introduction of myself.
I have 15 years of experience in software development.
Before crypto, I worked on Linux distribution development and mobile games.
After I learned about blockchain in 2017, I tried to build a team to audit smart contracts and develop a crypto exchange.
I met Luis in 2019 and joined the Octopus team as a co-founder.
That's it.
Thank you, Julian.
So Julian is our head of development.
And just, if I may say, without being too humble, I think we have, including Julian and Luis, we have like, and our team, we have one of those, one of the best developers in Asia.
And so, okay, Patrick, would you, I know that this is Secret Network's Twitter spaces and, but there are lots of new friends in the audience.
And would you also like to introduce Secret Network team, Alex, Lisa, and yourself to us, please?
Yeah, for sure.
I'll go ahead and go first.
My name is Patrick.
I am the head of partnerships at the Secret Network Foundation.
And let's hand it to Alex.
Thanks.
Hey, everyone.
Happy to be here.
Well, glad to speak again with Vivian and Luis.
Julian, nice meeting you.
We haven't met before.
We spent some good, good time and had good conversations in Lisbon.
I'm CEO of Secret Labs.
I joined relatively recently, about three months ago.
I'm super excited about this cooperation, also about Secret becoming the confidential computing layer for Web3.
And I hope we'll talk more about that later.
Hi, I'm Lisa Laudzo.
I'm the executive director of the Secret Network Foundation.
We help the ecosystem around the layer one, around Secret Network.
We grow it and do the communications and really are here in order to help people to build on Secret Network and provide the technical support that they need.
And then also to reach out and let more people know about the need for privacy, the need to build with privacy in today's blockchain world of new applications.
What was really exciting to me was going to NIRCON and meeting in person with Vivian and Luis.
And Julian, I'm not sure if you were there.
I know I met one other person from the Octopus team, but I think it was, I know I met Vivian and Luis.
So that was amazing because NIRCON this year was a very interesting event.
NIRCON is really focused on collaboration and they invited quite a few people from different ecosystems to come and speak.
I was speaking there on a panel, Alex was speaking on a panel and the ethos there was really to widen the circle to see how we can work together rather than like every layer.
Some people call them the blockchain wars.
And I don't, I don't want to be in a blockchain war.
I want to be in a blockchain building collaboration.
So I think there's, there's a need for a lot of different chains in different, different areas of development and secret network.
We, what we want to do is really work with all of the other chains and provide privacy as a service where our DNA, our, our skills and expertise are around implementing privacy and blockchain applications.
And there's other chains that do other things like transaction speed and throughput and accuracy.
There's a lot of different things that need to be built in this ecosystem in order to make blockchain usable.
But we are focused very narrowly on how to implement privacy well, securely.
And that privacy is really about data protection and confidential computing rather than transactional privacy.
So at secret network, we're, we're one of the few who are focusing on confidential computing.
And we were thrilled to be at near con in general, to speak about the importance of privacy.
And then we were really excited to, to meet in person with octopus because I believe this partnership will help us to achieve our goals.
Basically to be able to integrate with more chains, especially the near chain and near protocol.
And then, and just accomplish that goal of being privacy as a service in the larger ecosystem of developers.
So thank you for being here today.
I'm really excited to continue exploring what this will mean for secret in particular, and what, what octopus is planning.
And I'd like to hear more about what octopus is planning for, for how you're going to position yourself within the larger blockchain space.
That's a great segue.
That's exactly what I'd like to talk about next is just, let's start with the basics of what octopus network is for people within secret network that have never heard of you guys.
Okay, I'll take this.
So octopus network is a multi chain network built around near protocol.
So when they start, start a journey, same as a lot of blockchain developer and risk researcher, we try to figure out a way to, let's say, jump out of the blockchain trial, which means break the scalability bottleneck.
Well, maintain a sound level of security and decentralization.
We feel, we find that marketing network is, let's say, most appealing way to earth for the, the, the, the individual blockchain can be optimized for a special use case.
And that's result in app chain or a special function or capability, which usually result in a middleware chain.
So there could be a lot of app chains, Oracle chains, private computing chain, even storage chain, even AI computing chain, et cetera.
And with an open and pervasive particle, we can connect all these special app chain into a network.
And so, so we, by doing that, essentially we break the bottleneck of performance and also customizability.
So, so we learn this vision from, from Cosmos, but with a major difference.
And that is, we think the internet or blockchain or the marketing network should be built around a public blockchain.
So all the, all the app chains, the whole, all the, all the special purpose blockchain can share security, can share security from, from the, from the, from the hub.
And also all the, all the special purpose blockchain can, let's say, aggregate, there are trading liquidity into this hub.
It's not a, a mandatory process, but it will be the case considering the network effects of liquidity, which means liquidity attract liquidity.
So, so we call this design philosophy, a fat hub thesis, apparently at the exact opposite side of Cosmos hub minimalism philosophy.
So we choose near particle as the fat hub.
So we build a, a quite complex smart contract on near, which can facilitate, which, uh, share security to, uh, special purpose blockchain around, and also, uh, as the interoperability hub.
So, uh, uh, we start to build our first network, uh, about three years ago.
And, uh, the main night go down live, about live, uh, uh, October, 2022.
Uh, so about two years ago, uh, now we have, uh, five, uh, I've changed, uh, running inside the network.
They shared liquidity as your security from your protocol.
And also their, their trading, uh, requirement, uh, rely on near DeFi.
So that, uh, that, that is the, the, the, the, the, basically, basically you said the journey of office so far.
Um, if I may echo, uh, what Lewis said, and, um, and I think so for, for people to, to take away and, uh, octopus network is a web three infrastructure, a multi-chain web three infrastructure and middleware that we, that provides share security.
And also interoperability services to, um, web three projects.
For example, like the IBC that we're going to talk about in depth later, uh, the IBC, the adaptive IBC, like the, the bridge that we're building to connect near with more, um, more other networks like cosmos.
And it's, it's coming back to what Lisa has said, uh, earlier, um, that secret network is, you know, aiming to also bringing, um, privacy as a service, um, beyond the borders of cosmos.
Right.
And, and so that is exactly what the two things are coming together.
coming together.
So, um, we are, uh, also providing them solutions to, to connect, um, near ecosystem with more other ecosystems.
So, um, so, uh, we're very happy to, um, to work with secret network, um, on, on this journey back to Patrick.
Yeah.
Thanks.
That's a great summary.
So people within secret are pretty familiar with how the cosmos ecosystem has the cosmos hub.
And then we also have a bunch of different app chains and other layer one networks all built with the cosmos SDK technology.
So is that kind of a similar relationship that octopus network has with near protocol with near protocol being kind of thought of as the hub.
And then the octopus network being its own sovereign chain, but built with the same core technology and able to communicate with near protocol.
Oh, yeah.
Essentially it is the same.
We try to mimic the topology of, uh, of cosmos, uh, within the ecosystem.
Gotcha.
And is that something that other chains are doing as well in near protocol?
Is it similar to the, the cosmos idea of lots of energy connected chains?
I actually wasn't aware that near protocol had a bunch of different app chains like that.
Yeah.
Uh, so near the, the, the, the, the core near protocol is mainly about, uh, a sharding public chain, but, uh, that that's from near foundations perspective.
Uh, octopus network is, uh, complementary infrastructure, uh, which make near protocol in place,
up to in developer to, uh, to diversify their offering to website developers.
Got it.
Okay, cool.
And octopus network also incorporates a form of IBC protocol, which I believe is kind of a custom solution that your team came up with called adaptive IBC.
Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Oh, yes.
Yes.
So, uh, from, from, from the very beginning, when we, we think, uh, uh, open generic purpose, uh, interoperability protocol,
and, uh, IBC still, uh, stands at a unique position to realize, realize this, uh, this, this, this, this better proposition.
And so we, uh, we, uh, our cooperation with, uh, ICF began, uh, I think three, three years ago.
Uh, uh, I, we signed the grants contract with, with ICF, uh, even before we, we, we start out first network.
And, uh, um, from, from, from, from, from, from, from, from then on, we built IBC implementation first, uh, on substrate.
Uh, so at the beginning, octopus network, it only supports substrate based app chain.
And, uh, so we, the, the, the, we expand the coverage to cosmos SDK only, uh, from the, uh, octopus 2.0.
Uh, which is about to launch, uh, next month.
So, uh, we build substrate IBC and, uh, uh, but, and no, no, we, we are not, uh, only one, uh, you know, uh, other team.
Uh, there's other teams that found this, uh, let's say heterogeneous, uh, IBC implementation.
It's meaningful.
It's meaningful.
So there's, uh, comfortable finance, data chain, Polymera and others.
So we are not competitors.
We, we, we believe in the same, uh, blockchain internet vision and try to, uh, let's say contribute, uh, to the open source community, uh, our own way.
And, uh, um, and from, from, from, from, from this year, uh, uh, we, we, we, as I said, we shipped our focus from substrate based blockchain,
uh, and, uh, and, uh, the, the, the, the, the first thing we want to ensure is that, uh, that there is great, uh, interoperability infrastructure, um, near that, uh, to, to work with Cosmos chain.
So we, uh, start to work of near IBC.
And, uh, so, uh, the, our, our substrate IBC and, uh, uh, and also near IBC is based on the idea of adaptive IBC.
So this is a design that try to, uh, try to, uh, try to break the extensibility bottleneck of, uh, of IBC.
So IBC is, uh, it is great.
Great and the major, uh, the unique characteristic of IBC is about lifeline, which make it trustless, but the exact, but the exact same point make it very hard to extend to, uh, to other blockchain, to blockchain other than Cosmos.
Since, you know, uh, I, I think, uh, Cosmos is, uh, except exceptional case.
They designed, uh, uh, consensus and with the light client in mind.
And from the very beginning, uh, Tandermint is designed to be, uh, a consensus protocol to support, uh, a node in, uh, let's say.
Uh, let's say blockchain internet.
So from the very beginning, there, there is, uh, very, uh, good on-chain like client information for Tandermint.
But the other protocol, they do not design their consensus with interability, uh, into consideration from the beginning.
So yeah, I would, I would join in that point.
And I mean, that's why we have so much to build, right?
Because while, while Cosmos was built with collaboration in mind and consensus, a lot of these other blockchains just, just were not.
Uh, but I think that's why what you're doing is so important because you're building those bridges to make, to make up for that lack in the original design.
Right?
Oh, yes.
So, uh, so, uh, so the, the, the, the extension, uh, the IVC extension to other blockchain is very, very hard.
Uh, so we, we need, uh, battle tested, uh, on-chain land client.
And also the verification cost should be reasonable for, for, for, for, for, for user interaction.
And, uh, and, uh, you know, even if, uh, there is a lot of team working on, uh, IVC implementation, uh, other, besides Cosmos chain, there are no widely, uh, adopted, uh, IVC bridge.
Between Cosmos to other blockchain.
So the major reason is, uh, cost and also, uh, like client implementation.
So we, we, we try to, we, we deal with this difficulties for, for three years.
So we, our, our, our, we come up with a solution called adaptive IVC.
So it's about, uh, instead of run on-chain land client, uh, a land client on target chain, we can run a land client on second blockchain with better, uh, as a cost, uh, cost structure, a lower gas fee, and also better.
Uh, uh, uh, I say extensibility or easier to transplant to.
So, uh, the land client will verify cross chain message on the second blockchain and, uh, uh, provide a proof, uh, that this cross message rarely represent events on the source chain.
And the, the, the, what did, can you repeat what you call it?
IBC, uh, uh, we call it, uh, adaptive IBC.
So adaptive IBC.
Yeah.
The, the, the, the native IBC is about verify, uh, a cross chain message from source chain, um, target chain by leverage, uh, live client.
In the, uh, run time of target chain.
But, uh, this, uh, we call it outing lag client is either too expensive to run or, uh, without, uh, let's say proper implementation.
So there, uh, in some case there are no, uh, no light client can run inside, uh, let's say cosmos chain to verify near consensus, the consensus near particle.
So the solution is we bring this light client from target chain to second chain.
We, we, we can call it a proxy chain.
So it's still a trustless, uh, a decentralized solution, but it needs to involve a new decentralized system, which is, uh, the second chain.
But, but the second chain can verify the, uh, the, the, the, the integrity and the validity of crossing message and provide a proof.
And the target chain need to, uh, uh, can verify the proof from the, uh, the proxy chain, uh, with a very cost effective method.
So the, the, the, the, the cross chain message will be recognized as a, uh, as a legitimate message.
So this, this, uh, is the, the, the idea about adaptive IBC.
And when we talk about adaptive, there is two meaning.
One is this architecture can be adaptive to many, uh, many, many blockchain, uh, near, uh, Polkadot, Ethereum, and even others.
So we, we, we, the first, uh, first production level of, uh, adaptive IBC will be near, but we have a plan to expand this, this design, this architecture to cover other blockchain.
The other meaning of, uh, uh, being adaptive is that, uh, uh, we can, uh, adapt to the progress of verification method.
Let's say once we have, uh, uh, usable light client, uh, that can directly verify crossing message on target chain.
We can do, uh, channel, uh, connection upgrade to replace this proxy client with real on-chain client.
Or if we have, uh, workable ZK consensus proof, we can, uh, ZK consensus proof, we can replace this, uh, proxy chain with a, with a ZK bridge.
So we can replace the progress of, uh, validation technology.
So I guess you could say that Octopus Network, while near protocol is your initial focus,
you can think of Octopus Network more as an interoperability hub that will connect a bunch of different chains.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
Yes.
So, uh, uh, so, so that, uh, the near IBC is a common goose that Octopus contributes to near, uh, near ecosystem is open source.
And, uh, we, there, there, no, as a, uh, meaningful value capture mass, value capture mechanism in, uh, near IBC.
So we have near to connect with many other blockchain wide IBC, especially Cosmos based blockchain.
Uh, it's, uh, it's a, it's a common goose.
I would say.
Got it.
Is that where the name Octopus comes from?
Like an octopus has many arms connecting to many different networks.
I just thought about that.
Oh, yes.
And, uh, and, uh, I don't know.
Octopus is a marvelous creature.
Uh, they have, uh, neural, uh, unit on each arm.
So essentially each arm can, can sync independently.
Uh, it's a formal, it's, uh, let's say nature form of decentralization.
And you, the reason you mentioned is also, yeah, it, it, it, it, also the reason we come up with the name.
That is awesome.
I didn't realize that the name has that much meaning behind it.
Yeah, that's really cool.
Nature's decentralized creature.
And, and, and by the way, uh, octopus is very delicious, especially in Lisbon.
All right.
That's a great summary of octopus network.
I, I definitely have a better understanding of it now.
And I hope everyone else does too.
Um, with that cleared up, let's move into what this partnership actually entails and how secret network is going to be.
I think it's going to be making use of this connection.
And Vivi, maybe do you want to kind of take the, the cohost from here?
Sure.
Okay. Okay.
Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah.
That's been a really, um, great discussions.
Um, yeah, I would like to also like, um, would like to hear from the secret, um, network team from, uh, Alex and Lisa and also Patrick, you know, what, um, yeah, what is the partnership?
Lisa touched upon that a little bit, you know, the, what is the partnership, uh, mean for secret network?
And then, so let me first start it like why, uh, secret decided to, to use the adapted IPC then, you know, like what was the story behind and, and Alex, would you would, or Lisa, would you like to just, um, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sure.
Sure.
I'll take this off.
So, um, so, so, so for secret, you know, in the past, uh, you know, I guess in the past year, definitely past several months, we realized that our mission in the blockchain space.
Is actually to go out, uh, outside of our, uh, our own blockchain and offer our unique capabilities to, uh, other blockchains, right?
In general, I mean, if you think of it today, we have, uh, so many different blockchains.
I even sometimes say there are more L1s right now than applications that run on them.
And I, I haven't checked that, but it might even be true, right?
Cause they're just, there is a new L1 blockchain popping up every, every day.
And some of them have some very, very, uh, unique properties and some of them don't.
Now, of course we all realize that it's hard to imagine that all the applications will move to just, uh, you know, maybe they will move to one blockchain, but they won't be, they won't be running on all the blockchains.
In all the same time.
So, so essentially, uh, in the end, uh, you know, right now, at least it looks like the ecosystem is the bigger one with most of the apps happening there, but there's a lot going on on Solana.
There's a lot going on cosmos and, and also near and some others.
Uh, but again, we think, uh, in the end of the day, every L1 will have its specialty.
Right.
So I think Lisa mentioned that in the beginning, some are faster, uh, some are cheaper, some are more secure.
And, and secret is, uh, confidential, right?
That's, that's our unique, uh, feature.
And not only a unique feature, but also we are the oldest confidential computing blockchain, uh, the longest running.
Uh, so, so we have a huge, huge headstart in this space.
Now we realized that, you know, maybe in the beginning, uh, we thought that we could bring all the apps to run on, on secret.
But, uh, we realized it may have been, uh, a utopia, or it may have been like, uh, maybe it was a, a, a viable dream back then, but now we see that, uh, it doesn't happen.
And then instead of bringing everyone on secret, we want to bring secret to everyone, uh, meaning that we want to make it possible for developers on all kinds of blockchains to develop.
Privacy conscious applications.
Um, and there are multiple use cases for that, right?
Now, uh, this, uh, as, as Louis just explained, um, in this, uh, in his technical explanation, connecting between blockchains is difficult, uh, right?
Especially blockchains that use totally different paradigms, like, like, you know, Ethereum and Cosmos.
And, and Cosmos are secret or near and Cosmos that, that's, that's difficult.
And recently with advent of solutions, enabling this, you know, like, like octopus or, or bridges like wormhole axler and others.
So this enables us as secret to deliver our technology to, to developers elsewhere.
Right.
So, uh, when we started the conversations with octopus, uh, we realized that it would be, uh, an interesting opportunity to expand to an additional ecosystem.
You know, before that, before, before our conversations, EVM ecosystem was our primary goal or only goal.
I would say it's still super important for us.
And we're working towards getting developers there.
But now with this partnership, we have another network to work on and, uh, you know, visiting near con and getting exposed to the network.
We saw a very lively ecosystem with a lot of different apps.
And, uh, essentially this partnership fits our overall strategy of expansion and of offering, uh, secrets, uh, unique features to developers everywhere.
Be it EVM near or other chains.
And, uh, that's why we're very excited and very happy to work with octopus on this and, uh, make the necessary technology adjustments or changes on our side to, to make this integration possible.
Thank you, Alex.
I think that's a great story and that's a great move.
Um, yes.
Yes.
We, we, we, we noticed that, um, before, uh, before, you know, our collaboration, a secret is working with, um, like, like you mentioned, excellent.
Right.
So to cross over to EVM, but yeah, but exactly like Lisa and, and, and, and you, Alex said earlier, I think, I think every layer one, if I, I see it, they're like different cities or different countries, different nations.
Right.
So everyone has their own special, special offers, you know, like so.
So, and, and, and I think the future is multi-chain.
So I think it really makes sense to cross over.
So I think, I think, I think that's a really great strategic move, um, to cross over to, to near.
And, uh, as you said, near has a very, um, also very, uh, active and then like dynamic, um, ecosystem as well.
And so, um, so, okay.
So the next question is, so what, what can we expect from the, uh, the first, you know, uh, for secret to become the first cosmos SDK chain to connect to, uh, to, to near then, um, when, you know, we know that we talk about Q1.
So do you, could you shed some light on what can we expect?
Uh, well, so, uh, I understand that the first state of this technology will be just enabling bridging of the assets, uh, which is, uh, for us, it's, it's half the story, but it's, it's a good half of the story.
So that would allow people on near to perform things like, uh, maybe confidential payments, uh, or, and, and confidential defy.
Hopefully it will, um, allow dexes on secret to maybe trade some of the, uh, more popular tokens on near, um, in a confidential way to prevent any front running or snooping.
So that's the first stage.
And then the next stage would be to enable the general message passing.
And that's, uh, for us, you know, the, the main goal, the Holy Grail is actually allowing apps on running on near to just store confidential information on chain in a transparent manner by just using, uh, using this IBC connectivity and passing encrypted messaging back and forth,
messages back and forth and storing and retrieving, uh, confidential data and performing confidential compute, uh, on secret smart contracts.
Thank you. Yeah, I think that's so important. The, um, to be able to, to allow confidential computing and also privacy, uh, preserving in, like you said, the first stage in, in, um, cross assets.
Uh, and then the next stage on the, uh, cross messages and, and really looking forward to that.
Um, and, uh, yeah, so we, uh, the, the first version, uh, um, the connection will support asset transfer.
And, uh, uh, we, we will work with, uh, uh, secret, secret network team to, to, to pursue the goal of, uh, general purpose message passing between near and secret network.
Uh, uh, and, uh, uh, is, uh, uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, uh, it's possible to, uh, lay, to, to, to, to, to, lay, uh, uh,
uh, a general, uh, general purpose messaging layer on the transportation channel.
And as far as I know, I know that Exeter even use IVC as the transportation layer when the connections are there.
So it's, let's say, achievable, though, and providing we work together to pursue it.
Awesome.
Awesome. Great.
I'm curious about, so I know that you have adaptive IVC.
I know that you're starting with NIR and then moving to other chains.
I was curious what you see as the next step after NIR.
Most likely Ethereum.
So Ethereum is apparently the single biggest target.
We try to approach.
And it's not only Earth.
There are many teams working on either MIBC or EVM-IBC.
I think that majorly the credit should belong to, should be entitled to a data chain team.
It's a Japanese developer team.
And the difficult part.
The most difficult part is still light client verification.
And by leveraging our adaptive IVC design.
I think Altifus have a good opportunity to be the first one to provide, let's say, affordable and secure IVC connection between Ethereum and other IVC-enabled blockchain.
I would also actually like to ask Alex or Lisa to shed some light in the era of AI.
Because, you know, everybody is more aware of the importance of privacy.
Especially when AI is basically kind of ruling the world now.
So would you like to give us some insights on, you know, what is the safest path for AI when it comes to privacy?
And, you know, like the decentralization and then the private infrastructure.
And what is your plan for that?
You were, I'm going to let Alex answer this.
But we were just talking about this earlier today about how AI is evolving and soon it won't need us anymore.
So from a high level, I think it's really important that we are mindful of what data we're allowing the AIs access to.
And what data we keep private.
But I'll let Alex answer the question in more depth.
Yeah, so I mean, this is a daunting question and a big topic that, I mean, I'm not sure we, I mean, I have enough, you know, expertise to really answer in a totally interesting way.
But I'll give you my view.
So like AI basically consists of, well, you can think of two things, right?
There is a model, some sort of an algorithm that learns, right?
And then there is the source data that it learns on, right?
And both are very, very, very important.
So if you actually teach the AI on a certain set of, say, texts that all have a certain worldview, let's say some political, you know, right or left, whatever, then the AI would be tending towards that direction, right?
And that is especially dangerous when governments are now starting to implement AI.
And in a lot of cases, the governments are using private companies to train the AI.
And then this kind of potential bias may be very hard to detect.
So the blockchain might be used, and especially confidential blockchain might be used to record some sort of a proof or some sort of a proven list of content that was used to train the AI.
But with a network like secret, this may remain proprietary, remain confidential, but can be still shared with certain agencies or certain people.
Because I think that those companies will not be willing to share their data sources with everyone in a, you know, just in a public manner.
But having it on a confidential blockchain with a way to expose that to an auditor or even to a government agency that would make sure that there's no bias or maybe to generate certain proofs.
So that can be useful.
I don't think today we really know what OpenAI is being trained on.
I'm not sure, but I don't think they disclose the list publicly, and we don't know whether there are certain biases there or not.
And potentially a blockchain could help with establishing this truth, this ground truth of what content was used for training.
And a confidential blockchain can make this data selectively disclosable, meaning that not everyone sees it, but only specific people, specific auditors are able to see that list.
That's, you know, that's, you know, that's, you know, a way AI could live, could benefit or more, more, I would say that's the way humanity could benefit from using blockchains to, to not to control, but to record and keep AI under certain control.
Yeah, I think that's why projects like secret network that provides secret as a service really makes sense because, you know, while blockchains are public, but secret network can offer private smart contracts that could encrypt and also protect the data by default.
Yeah, exactly.
So, so, so, so user status remains secure and private, right?
So, so I think that is important for, you know, like really in, in the, in the AI kind of AI era.
Thank you, Alex.
So, Patrick, would you, would you like to, I would like to go, come back to Patrick and, and see, probably we're going to wrap up for and open the floor for Q&A soon.
Yep.
Yeah.
Let's go ahead and ask if anybody has any questions, feel free to raise your hand and we'll bring you on stage.
And while we're waiting on some questions, I will just kind of summarize everything we've covered so far.
I think we've covered everything we wanted to cover.
Let's talk about what people can expect for next steps.
So we mentioned Q1 2024 is the goal for this integration to happen.
And one of the things that it relies on is a network upgrade on the secret side.
So before anything else, we'll have to complete a network upgrade to upgrade one of our IBC components, IBC Go.
And once that happens, we can go ahead and start connecting to Octopus Network.
Start testing to that connection.
And in parallel with that, we are already working on documentation for privacy as a service applications on EVM.
So while we're developing these application models, basically we can keep in mind that we want this to also work on other things as well.
Not just EVM, but, you know, Nier Protocol, Polkadot, any other ecosystem that we might want to bring this to.
So hopefully by the time this integration is live, we will have these privacy as a service application models better fleshed out and documented.
And we can start writing some documentation for how to make them work on Nier Protocol.
And at that point, we'll just have to start reaching out to Nier Protocol developers, showing them these tools that are available and helping them build confidential applications on Nier Protocol that make use of secret network via Octopus Network.
So that, I think, for sure, for sure, and I very much hope that this will be actually super easy, because that would just mean people will need to translate the Ethereum, the EVM side of this integration to, say, Nier, which with the secret side actually remaining exactly the same.
And it seems like, and it seems like not such a difficult task for an experienced developer.
So that means that this shouldn't take too much.
I think you'll find the API interface on Nier will be much easier to use than Ethereum, since Nier itself is a synchronized messaging padding.
So contract code between Nier, so contract code between Nier and smart contract is synchronized, and so it's very easy to integrate with the capability outside the blockchain.
Okay, even better, great, then it should be easier, and by the way, I do hope the Nier community will, I mean, maybe we won't even need to build anything on our own.
And maybe just the community will take the examples and just use them, you know, just translating whatever Solidity code we have into JavaScript or other programming languages and just running them.
By the way, on Nier, we have Aurora, which is an EVM chain, right?
So, I mean, by the way, do you work with, Luis, do you guys work with, say, Aurora?
Will it be available from Aurora as well?
So, Aurora is an EVM-compatible chain inside the Nier particle, so you can think it's equivalent of BSC or Avalanche CNET.
So, yeah, we have a connection with Aurora team, especially on the interability side, since we utilize the Rainbow Bridge.
But, let's say, the Aurora integration will be similar with Ethereum integration rather than near-native integration.
Oh, okay, got it.
Okay.
Understood.
Great.
Awesome.
Well, I don't think we have any questions.
VV, you don't see any questions from the audience, do you?
Sometimes my app lags.
Yeah, I didn't see anything.
Okay, cool.
And so, anyone, if you have more questions, raise your hand.
Just let us know.
But otherwise, yeah, you know where to find us.
Yeah, let's talk about where people can follow the Octopus Network and how can they get involved with your community if they want to learn more.
So, we have our official Twitter.
You can see, actually, Octopus, the Octopus site in the audience.
That is our official Twitter.
And feel free to follow our Twitter.
We make all our announcements and share our progress and news through the Twitter.
And then, also, we have, obviously, our website, oct.network.
O.network, that's the official website.
And then, also, we have our Medium.
You can also, if you follow our Twitter, you see our Medium articles from there as well.
And then, we publish important news and also insights through Medium as well.
And then, we have our Discord and also our Telegram.
And all this information, you can just easily go to the Medium, any Medium messages.
And, at the end of it, we have all these entries from there.
So, I think Octopus Network's official Twitter is the way to go.
And if you just follow that and you get all the information and you can feel free to leave a message there as well.
Oh, we have one question.
I think Roger, Roger, let me, let's see whether we can invite Roger to, to ask the question.
Hi, Roger, you are on, you're on the stage.
Do you have any questions to ask?
You can unmute yourself and ask the question.
Hello, can you hear me?
Yes, yes, now we can hear you.
So, my question is, can Octopus Network token be listed on Binance in the future?
Sorry, can Octopus Network what in the future?
Sorry, could you repeat the question again?
Can Octopus Network token be listed on Binance in the future?
Oh, about listing?
Luis, would you like to take that one or I could answer that?
It's totally up to Binance decision.
Yes, I think for projects, we, as long as we keep building and we create values,
and all the other things like token prices or trading or listing, I think that is just part of the market, market act behavior.
So, for the team, we're just going to focus on creating more values.
Thank you, Roger.
Thank you, Roger.
All right, if you don't have any other questions, we'll go ahead and wrap this up as we're at the top of the hour.
Octopus Network, we really appreciate you being here with us.
This has been a great conversation, and we're definitely looking forward to working with you more
and actually completing this integration and making all this come true.
So, for our community, just keep an eye out for future announcements on this.
I'm sure in between now and Q1 2024, we'll put out some updates on the Secret Network Twitter.
And then in Q1, we'll make a major announcement, and we'll put that out on all channels
and probably have another space with Octopus as well, and we'll go from there.
Alex and Lisa, did you have anything you wanted to add before we wrap this up?
Nope, it was great to get a more in-depth sense of what you guys are building
and how we're going to collaborate, and now we just have to execute.
Yep, yeah, we're excited about this cooperation.
As I mentioned, it fits our strategy really nicely, and also we were glad to meet new friends,
you know, and that was really another nice, you know, non-technological human side
of this whole thing, and I'm grateful for that as well.
Yeah, it's so nice to meet you guys in person.
And actually, Lisa, you mentioned the other person that you met during your con is Sheldon.
Yeah, it was Sheldon.
Who's also in the audience.
Yeah, that was Sheldon.
Big shout-out to Sheldon.
Sheldon, it was a pleasure to meet Sheldon as well.
Yeah.
Very great conversation that we had.
Yeah.
I'm really proud of being in this community.
I mean, like, the Web3 community in general, and then people like Alex, Lisa, Patrick, we haven't met,
but, you know, like, the builders, right?
So, like, we have this vision, and obviously, like, Luis, and, you know, we...
I think it's just so wonderful to be working with like-minded people and then make the, you know, the vision come true.
And like Lisa said, it's about the execution now.
And thank you so much, everyone, for your support.
And, yeah, looking forward to that.
Thanks, Vivi.
Thanks, guys, for coming to our Spaces.
It was great.
Thank you, everyone.
Thanks, everybody.
We'll see you next time on Secret Spaces.
We should be back next week at our usual time.
Tuesdays at 5 p.m. UTC.
We had it one hour earlier today.
So we'll see you there.
And until then, have a good week.
Cool.
Happy holidays.
Bye.
Bye.
Thanks, everyone.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
