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SOULBOUND GAMING v2
Recorded: June 5, 2025 Duration: 0:33:48Space Recording
Short Summary
The conversation delves into the evolving landscape of soulbound tokens in gaming, emphasizing privacy concerns, user engagement, and the potential for partnerships in retail blockchain applications. Key insights include the need for reputation systems and the integration of blockchain technology to enhance user experiences and foster growth in the Web3 ecosystem.
Full Transcription
Music uh yes elon's twitter and spaces well hopefully it looks like everybody's coming back up.
So that's good.
Please keep requesting.
And then while I let people know, go ahead and make the point you were going to make, Daniel.
Yeah, absolutely.
So the more like soulbound tokens that you kind of build up around your specific address in the gaming space, the more of a risk you are also potentially doxing yourself.
If you're trying to be more on the anonymous side of things, but you're building up all
this data around your reputation in the gaming space, there is a potential that eventually
you build up so much data that someone could potentially identify exactly who you are.
much data that like someone could potentially identify exactly who you are. So that, I mean,
I'm definitely going to play the like privacy preserving card here quite a bit, considering
just like where I'm coming from with, with human passport and everything. So that's definitely a
concern that I see with being able to build up so, so much data around and like, you know,
data that comes with you wherever you go as you're kind of playing throughout the Web3 ecosystem.
So definitely kind of a privacy and doxing challenge
could arise from soulbound opportunities here.
Yeah, 100%.
I think that was also a concern
in the first space that we hosted. Moaz and Allicat were here.
So you probably remember that was a conversation we had in terms of how much of ourselves do
we want to share in a way that is beyond our control, right?
Because I think soulbound tokens are beyond our control.
They exist in perpetuity.
They are not opt-in. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of gaps, right? In terms of like
what they represent. Obviously, same with you, Daniel. Like, you know, I was one of the first
builders of Orange Protocol, which is built on top of the ontology identity stack.
And our thesis was reveal what you want when you want.
And so with DIDS and VCs, right,
or decentralized identifiers and verifiable credentials,
you have the ability to record important moments, right?
But they're not publicly available.
And if you want to reveal a part of yourself in order to gain access
to something new, you can, but even then it isn't, here's my address.
It's very binary where it's like do you live in Los Angeles yes or no
and you can opt in to say yes I do and if that gives you access to something that you consider
valuable and enough to tell someone you live in LA fantastic if not then you don't reveal that
we then took that a step further and said hey what if we wanted to make
public primitives or SBTs but it was your choice to record that on chain and
even then any private data such as like if your addresses you what is recorded
in the verified application the private data is abstracted, right?
So it's not publicly available.
So yeah, I'm with you with what needs to be public and accessible to everyone and how
much of that you choose to reveal because there's potentially a lot of dangers in terms
of just revealing everything.
Anybody have any other thoughts contrary or an agreement to that?
I will actually add to it because this is something for last four,
almost four months had been, I think on last base,
Hamtie was talking about something I was digging.
And last week I actually shared in depth the details with Geoff from Ontology.
For almost four months, we were basically looking into solutions where not only in gaming but using the SolBond a DID
protocol profile layer and when we were doing the study and digging deep into this we were looking
for our solutions where a Bona wallet can be mapped by a DID basically getting minted but all the DID
basically getting mapped to different wallets from different chains but also
in certain ways using ZK verifier or a solution that a user will have full
control of okay we have all the different data platforms like DefiLama and
all these platforms they are basically having the user data but the user will
have possibility to go to the profile
and hide which ones, which data they want to disclose
to the website or the protocol that, for example, we are building.
And we will be able to share that with the third party that we are using.
And that means, for example, if it's a game
that we are going to be given this DID
or the profile integration through API,
that means now the user will have, he will be playing five or six games,
and then the user will have possibility to show out of six games, only show two games.
And also now this allow user to keep not a cold wallet, not a hot wallet, but warm wallets.
to keep not a cold wallet not the hot wallet but warm wallets warm wallet means soft wallets but
the wallets that he or she never do or will not do an on-chain transaction with any protocol but
only do transaction with his own wallet to wallet which he can basically use another wallet to do
an on-chain by using Dexis and all these things because Web3 is very problematic when it comes to security
because we connect our wallets to different websites and go to sleep and we can't even sleep
good because whatever happens to the website or even a Discord server when the wallet is connected
or done any kind of transactions, we are basically next day morning FTAPS.
And then we are basically looking at this is using a burner wallet but
having a DID solves the problem even if the user removes the burner wallet and change the
burner wallet because of the DID that actually verifies all the other words that are connected
to so Hamti what you mentioned that's possible that you can hide the wallets you can approve
which one is can be basically demonstrated or showed in UI.
But still, there is other ways that it can be totally private or partially private. That depends on which protocol you are using, whether you are using the KBS SBT or whether you are using an on-chain SBT, like a normal on-chain SBT normally.
So that depends on the kind of protocol which the product is using.
Yeah, fair point anybody else wanted to add anything in terms of like for
against or an agreement i should say uh to what we've discussed here
also recognizing i guess while someone raises their hand, is that there are different layers, if you will, of activity or interactions on chain that can or cannot be recorded by wallets.
So I think transaction data, that's kind of like a low hanging fruit.
Obviously, that's something you can easily do with a wallet. And if the wallet wanted to
provide some sort of history or highlights of your transactions, they could build that in.
But in terms of like things that are less tangible or less transactional, probably better said,
less tangible or less transactional, probably better said, wallets have limits in terms of
how they can surface that information. And I think that's kind of the differentiation that
we're talking about here. Whether you do something in a obfuscated way where you're doing so off-chain using DIDS and VCs or in a public and transparent way
by putting an asset on-chain like an SPT.
Jeff, go for it, man.
Yeah, I just wanted to say something positive about SPTs
in terms of gaming as well
and come back to this gaming conversation a little bit.
And this is going with what Marcello was saying
about the Xbox and things as well
and achievements so i remember i remember it was mass effect 2 or mass effect 3 essentially it
looked at your save game data and it changed the game the new game in some respects based on what
you'd previously done in the older game and that was quite that was new that was a really new way
for people to approach a sequel for a game.
And I was amazed by it. I loved it.
But of course, it was reliant on your saved game data on the same machine that you were playing in.
And this is something that SBTs can do really, really well. You're right, Humpty. It can't really be easily taken onto a wallet as a transaction, but it can be recorded as an SBT.
but it can be recorded as an SBT.
And the reason an SBT over just a straight up NFT
is because you don't necessarily want people
to sell that experience.
That is the experience that that player has earned.
That's something they've done.
It's kind of unique to them.
It makes sense to their previous gaming experiences
within the same game or a previous game
or a similar game.
And I think that's a really powerful
and positive use
for Soul Bounty tokens,
giving people a way beyond save games
to have a unique experience for follow-up games
and follow-up experiences.
And I think that is something I would love to see
come forward in gaming.
Polaris, go for it, buddy.
Yeah, on a positive note, like, you know, so far, if we was to, like, instead of, like,
hyper-focusing on projects and, like, using the SBTs, like, for example, Starbucks tried
to enter the blockchain, and they kind of, like, you to use polygon if i remember correctly to try to like you
know uh give rewards to to to their users and it didn't really work that brilliantly as it should
have maybe like you know as global chains which we were talking about last week like you know
there's a lot of global chains which are like interested in like incorporating blockchain onto
their onto their portfolios i think like tesco's for for us people in the uk or you know, all the US global chains, you know, they could possibly use something like an SVT
to identify or come up with some sort of a rewards program. And that rewards program could be like,
you know, utilized in a correct manner without needing such a provenance, you know, like where you end up, you know, associating yourself with something which is huge, like, you know, being a part of Pudgy Penguin or 10KTF or like, you know, Yuga Labs, but something which is mass adopted already.
to reward people. So if I was to use Starbucks, let's say in Southeast Asia, I would be able to
utilize my SBT. And if I was to use that in the UK, it would be the same thing. And that kind of
makes more sense in terms of use case. And the same analogy can be utilized in gaming as well. Like, for example, I'm a huge Tekken fan, for example.
And I'm not sure, like, you know, how they would reward it.
But, like, you know, they could, like,
literally unlock a couple of players
if I had a Tekken SBT incorporated.
But it would be less about extraction.
It would be more about empowerment.
And that was the point which
I was trying to make in my first stance like you know so it kind of like
correlates
yeah no that makes sense by the way I love not Jeff sir Polaris comes in
throws a grenade and goes hey guys guys, look, uh, I was
spicy for a minute.
I want to, I want to be cool.
It just comes in with an entirely different argument, brother every week.
But I love that about you.
Your devil's advocate is so good that it almost feels like it's someone else in the
conversation, uh, Daniel, I see your hand up.
Go for a bet.
Yeah. I'll kind of do the same thing. get someone else in the conversation. Daniel, I see your hand up, go for a bet.
Yeah, I'll kind of do the same thing.
So I know like the whole doxing
and privacy preserving situation
is something that I talked about previously,
but I'm actually the most excited about rewards
and building up reputation using these different SBTs.
We, Human Passport at one point in time
was looking into how we could build like a gaming model
around gaming data
like that users have built up that could be used to identify how to reward users in like different
gaming ecosystems so one of the things we were really excited about is like if we could build up
a reputation system that looks across many different features and pulls out a lot of different data from
SBTs, we could potentially create a system where different users could get early access
to games or different rewards.
And instead of just looking at maybe just one SBT here and there, we could look at the
aggregate of a variety of different SBTs that a specific user in the gaming space has built potentially help to not only provide really good
feedback on how to develop a game, but could also help like evangelize that game based on their
previous experience and data that they've built up. Yeah, 100%. I want to acknowledge both those
points that you've made here and also that Polaris has made. I was a huge fan of like what Starbucks tried to do
with on-chain loyalty.
Hell, I even try to emulate it.
You know, I try to build something, but it's not easy.
You're talking about building an entirely like new protocol
to kind of manage loyalty and issue rewards from it um i wonder since daniel says you brought it
up like what do you think uh could be some of the challenges if you look at you know loyalty
let's call it that because i think it it sounds better than reputation too um in the gaming space
like what do you think would be the biggest hurdles?
And maybe you've seen some good examples of it working, maybe not on Chain,
but that you've seen it working in other kind of more traditional systems.
Oh, man.
Well, there's a reason why we did not continue pursuing that gaming model and that's because we just like couldn't find find enough data that really spoke to that loyalty
spoke to that like what does make a good gamer a good gamer that like an ecosystem would probably
want to like keep around so i think that in the, there will definitely be really strong opportunities on that
front. But we just found that at the time that we were investigating this, which is probably around
like, I don't know, eight months ago or so, there wasn't enough data for us to really build like a
model that would be valuable. But that being said, I mean, I think that we, I'll give an example in like a different space of something that we've been trying to build.
So we offer data services to folks who are doing TGE and also just folks that want to better understand like who in their ecosystem are like verified humans and verified civils.
And we came up with a model called our diamond hands model.
We thought that it would be super valuable because then we could go to our
partners and be like, Hey,
these are the folks that are actually going to hold onto tokens after a TGE.
Like these are the individuals that are trustworthy.
They have proven that they're like adding good value to the ecosystem and they're holding after they receive tokens.
And unfortunately, even with that, we found that just pretty much everyone dumps after TGE.
like it's not even we even found that this hasn't been that valuable of like a signal um just because
like people have proven to really just not be that trustworthy and or um contribute very long
term to a lot of like l2s for example but i know that that's kind of going in a different direction
so we can bring it back to gaming.
Moaz, go ahead, bro.
Yeah, I think Daniel mentioned something very important when it comes to reputation or rewarding users.
I think that it's something I think of the basically I've been
working in Web3 in mostly on fundraising and launchpad stuff and all these things like,'ve been working in Web3 mostly on fundraising
and launchpad stuff and all these things
for example in Web3 we need to understand
I think
everybody will sell the token
but we need to look for signals
like if there were like 10,000
people given an airdrop
what
they did with the airdrop
the movements, the voice they made on the socials,
plus the capital they moved. If they out of 10,000 people that were given the airdrop,
what they did afterwards, everybody, I would expect like 80 to 90%, even to 60% to 80%
people will be selling or even 100% sells the token with a certain time period of taking the profit.
But did they come back and do their own research and everything,
come back when the price went down,
did they again bought back those tokens
because they were rewarded free money?
Did they try to support the protocol by, let's say, $100 they were given,
they took off like $500,
again, when they were able to come back and spend that $100 to buy back the initial amount they were given, they took off like $500 again when they were able to come back and
spend that $100 to buy back the initial amount they were given.
So that I would call a prototype a proper signal instead of looking for only the users.
And this is what I was talking about, like an SBT initially when it was introduced.
It was introduced to unlock the certain levels and depending on these kind of levels, a user, SBT or profile, is having a merit system.
And that merit system determines the next airdrop coming in
or next protocol dropping with a similar kind of airdrop.
They basically now target the users
who have a certain amount of merits
for that kind of movement they have done on chain
and all these things.
I think that would be the better way to do the SBT
when it comes to users and all these things,
a kind of SBT that can actually monitor the user movement
and capital and sentiment and all these things.
No disrespect to anyone, but it depends if that airdrops on Solana
because, sorry about that, guys.
It wasn't like personal.
But yeah, I mean mean i totally get that and and and i think like to exemplify this um stuff has happened uh on the btc ecosystem like for
example the runestone airdrop that was something like you know which uh basically done the same
thing you know where like you ended up getting like r6 and then the
situation like you know was only given to 20 000 ordinal holders and then runestone was created
which was a bit more fairer towards the r6 thing and then as a result you know you ended up having
and then there's two more airdrops with that runestone. So, you know, it is something along those lines.
And the reason why I mentioned Solana is because the selling pressure is so bad.
And because it is like, you know, constant, constant, like attention being taken away from one project to another, to another, to another.
It just kills everything.
Go ahead, Jeff.
Thank you, Polaris. kills everything go ahead jeff all right thank you polaris um i just wanted to ask daniel but
everybody else a bit of a question here about this reputation problem right and so if you're
trying to figure out reputation of gamers how much do you think that is mudded by the fact that
web3 games are tokenized most of the time and they're actually trying to pull apart what somebody
who's invested in a game what's the difference between somebody
invested in a game and somebody who's invested in trying to do enough in the game to mine the
best token rewards and that kind of goes back to what mraz was saying as well in terms of
what do they do next it's quite complicated right they might get their airdrop they might go away
but do they come back and carry on playing the game and i guess that's my question daniel to
you when you were looking at it because i think this is a really interesting field did you find that it
was just so complicated to pull all those different signals apart because of things
like tokenization or was there just not enough data in reality well for us specifically we are
heavily heavily concentrated on just the unique humanity problem.
And so we were kind of like starting to think like, okay, maybe we want to dive into the reputation space a little bit more.
And gaming was definitely top of our list when we were starting to think about that.
So we have an amazing data team.
Our data team started to dive in. We were actually working with a couple of larger prominent folks in the
gaming web through gaming space to identify like what data is available, how we might be able to
utilize that data. And we're taking a lot of our knowledge from like identifying civil behavior
from human behavior on the more unique humanity side of things to try to identify like okay what is what what are some clear
behaviors that um are patterns and behaviors that are showing a gamer who might not be in it for the
best reasons and and might just like be in it for like a reward system versus actually trying to elevate the gaming community or ecosystem.
And it was just, we couldn't wrap our heads around it as much as we wanted to,
just because we had competing priorities on the more unique humanity side of things.
And so we ended up dropping that project.
But I am still extremely interested in this space.
And what it's going to take for us to really build some
sort of reputation score like this is very strong partnerships with the games with the gaming houses
like with the different folks throughout the gaming industry to identify like different behaviors
that we could go and investigate and then have our data team go and chase after some of these
and start to build a
variety of different models and test how effective those models are against like specific reward
campaigns or different gaming scenarios. Yeah, I agree because we definitely need like people
who are actually like, you know been been in the industry gaming
industry for the last 20 years you know and the data the valuable data which they're holding
that data is what's going to take push this thing to the next level because obviously we've got the
tech there and we've got all of that stuff uh uh you know which can be utilized in a decentralized manner. But we haven't got the data, we haven't got the users, you know.
And that's the pivotal point which is going to take this to the next level.
Go for it, Daniel.
I mean, the first thing that we ended up doing on the unique humanity side of things
was building a massive list of known humans and known symbols.
So a good first step here would be to identify exactly like what behavior we might
want to group into different audience types and start to build out a large list of folks that
actually match that behavior and that audience type and then start to develop different data
models around those different audience types.
So like that's, if anyone wants a roadmap on how to do it, there you go. I'll give it to you right
there. And also know that Passport would absolutely love to partner with you to explore this space.
Hey, thanks, guys. I think I've been having some issues here. I got literally
rugged like 17 times and have been trying to get back. So maybe it's just me. Maybe X doesn't
like me today. Polaris, thank you so much for continuing to leave the conversation while
I was trying to come back up. We are at the top of the hour and I want to make sure that everybody
gets an opportunity to kind of speak about, you know, what people should do, where they can connect
with them, you know, and of course, firstly, thank you for your time for
coming up. This is the third of, you know, supposed to be a four part series, but it just, there's just,
I feel like every conversation just flies by and there's always like some new, at least for me,
revelation as to not just the challenges to on-chain gaming and i put on chain in quotes because
you know not everything is on chain but there's still a lot of different things that we need to
consider in terms of identity and uh kind of the that this reputation if that you build over time and loyalty, if you will, and how you reward people
and how you, you know, kind of maintain a level of privacy and opt-in for people who are playing
these games. Like there's just so much, right? Because we can get really excited and lead with
the tech and say, it solves all these things and we introduce a whole mess of problems.
So I truly appreciate the fact that everybody keeps coming and sharing
different perspectives about it. So we'll start with Mouaz here, who's directly to my right.
Where can people find you? What are you building on? And how can people support what you're
building? Thank you, Amti. Yeah, I am actually, if people are basically trying to raise funds,
I will for venture capital. And then on the other side,
if I'm building something, yes, I am actually building something that is very aligned with
the DAD and profiling that will, that is trying to solve, actually to avoid people getting
wrecked on the on chain. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't spill too much yet. Let's see if I would be able
to spill it or showcase it to people so that day i
will basically talk about it more for now i will leave it at the side but it is going to be something
related to the id and user profiling and all this stuff love it so follow muaz at least on x and
you'll get all the alpha as soon as it's ready to be shared. Next up, Daniel,
you know, where can people find you? What are you working on and how can people support what
you're building? Yeah, for sure. So following me on Twitter is definitely a great start.
So I've been building with Human Passport for the past two years and some change now,
and will continue to do so into the future. So really concentrating on proof of unique
humanity. We have a few different awesome products right now. One is an aggregate ID verification
tool. Another is ID verification based on Sybil classification models and then also data services
for like TGE. And then in addition to that, I'm working for Human Tech, which is kind
of our umbrella product suite company. And we have a new wallet coming out, which I'm pretty
excited about, that's going to be serving some pretty unique use cases, especially serving
refugees throughout Asia and Africa, as well as a new AVS called Human Network that enables
us to issue human keys, which kind of is the backbone of both human passport and the human
wallet, which is pretty exciting. So yeah, go ahead and follow me on Twitter. Thank you.
Awesome. And Alleycat, same question for you. Awesome. And Alleycat, same question for you. Hey, guys. I know I didn't speak much, but
that's because everyone else is way smarter than me, at least in this space. And man, I have to
say I learned so much. And, you know, we have a couple of games in the works over at Mew. And now
I've got a couple new pieces of information
to grill some of the devs on, I guess, after this space.
So thank you so much for educating me on everything
and just being able to listen to such a great conversation.
So you can find Mew at Mew on X or Twitter.
It's just at M-E-W.
Or you can check out our telegram or our website.
Mew dot X Y Z, which is super cool.
Make sure to check that out if you're curious.
And yeah, we have two games that are in development right now that we're constantly giving updates on.
Only one of them is going to be Web three. The other one's going to be web two,
but it's always cool to see how maybe we can bring some of that data on
chain from the web two game. And that's pretty much it. I mean,
we have a ton of other stuff,
but obviously I want to focus on the gaming side of things. So yeah,
come, come check us out, give us a follow. And as soon as you do,
I'm sure you're going to be hit with plenty of updates for those games that we're coming out with.
Sweet.
And Marcelo, behind the Soulbound TV account, same for you.
Let's go.
Yeah, this was a great topic, guys.
Really enjoyed it.
So for ourselves, we've got our TG coming up very soon,
currently running our IDO sale.
I'll leave it at that.
If anybody's interested, check out our pinned post.
But thanks for hosting this, guys.
This was really great.
Really enjoyed the episode.
Amazing.
And we have Jeff and Polaris, who are my cohort, my collaborators here.
Jeff, I think I see your hand up.
Did you want to say something?
Yeah, just really quickly, cheers, HMT.
Just to say, we're going to be at ECC sponsoring a brunch down there on the gaming side of things.
I'm going to be giving a presentation on what Ontology's vision is for Web3 Gaming and identity and reputation and how we're thinking about that.
So if anybody's going to be around at ECC, if anybody's interested in attending,
please do hit us up and just drop me a line so I can look at getting people on guest lists and
things like that. Should be a really good day. Heck yeah. ECC, AtCon, in France. It's going to be great.
And I'd love to see Jeff from his actual account
sharing what that presentation
is going to look like.
So follow Jeff.
What's your X account, Jeff?
Unless you don't want to share that.
No, no, no.
It's only because I struggle with my Mac.
It's Jeff T. Richards.
You can follow me there.
I'll be sharing some details on that as well.
And it's Jeff with a G.
So G off just for making it really difficult.
For us Americans.
G off T. Richards.
No, I just pinned the post on top.
There you go.
Look at that.
We have other people here
that are much better at spaces than we are.
You can tell.
All right.
Well, thank you so much, everybody,
for your time, for joining us.
This has been a fun chat.
We'll have our fourth and final space next week.
And I have a topic, but we'll be tweeting that out pretty soon.
But until then, Polaris, sign us out, buddy.
Awesome conversation. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. And I've followed every single one of you. And Jeff,
I probably want to join you in France, bro.
It's been a while since I've been to France.
So I'll send you a DM and then we take it from there.
In the meanwhile, everyone, look after your mind.
Look after your health.
Try to touch grass.
Take deep breaths.
And we'll be back next week.
Let's go.
Let's go. Let's go.
