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SOURCE: Fabrics of Time & Space
Recorded: Oct. 9, 2023 Duration: 0:59:01Space Recording
Full Transcription
Hello, hello. Hi, Madeline. Hi, Travis. Hi, Sarah.
How's everyone doing this morning?
Doing well.
Yeah, doing well. Just got down to New Orleans.
Oh, amazing. Are you there for the Wild Conference?
Yes. And I just landed and it's really pretty here.
Sounds like it's going to be such a fun, such a fun weekend or weekend, I guess.
But what a great time to be in New Orleans, too. You've missed the worst of the heat, I think.
Yeah, I think so. That's good.
Hello.
Hi, Fingercode. How are you?
I'm good. Thank you. Yourself?
Good, thanks. And I just have a question. Do you prefer Fingercode or...
You can call me Junior.
Junior, okay.
Yeah, either or.
Just wanted to check. Fantastic. Great. And Sarah, how are you today?
I'm all right. Kind of a heavy moment in the world, but happy to be here with all of you.
Thank you for saying that. I agree. I agree. And thank you for voicing that.
It is great to be here with everyone. And I'm really glad, too, to see some folks in the audience.
I see Casey is here. Casey Reese and Casey Alt. And Matt, hi. Dave, Jason, and Anna Lucia just got in the room.
I'm inviting you up to speak. And we're going to get started maybe in like a minute or two.
If y'all wouldn't mind tweeting about the space, that would be wonderful. And we can bring some more people in.
And this is also recorded, and we're going to eventually put them on our site so people can revisit whenever they want.
So, yeah, we'll just get started in just a minute here. I just want to make sure your microphone works.
Hi, Anna. How are you?
Hi, I'm good. All good with my microphone?
Yep. Sounds great. Loud and clear.
Amazing. We'll get started in just a minute here. Thanks, everyone.
Although, you know, as well as letting, you know, making sure that the microphones work, I also love to know where people are calling in from.
Travis mentioned he just touched down in New Orleans. Junior, where are you calling in from?
I'm calling from a sunny West Yorkshire, North England.
Lovely.
And it is sunny there, you said?
I mean, it's as sunny as it gets at this time of the year.
It's not Spain, but we're about...
Well, that's great. Glad to hear it.
And Anna, where are you calling in from?
I'm in Berlin at the moment, definitely not so sunny. I feel like autumn has begun this weekend. So, gray and rainy.
Oh, dear. Well, hopefully the leaves are turning something pretty.
What about you, Sarah? Where are you calling in from today?
I am in Los Angeles today.
And most days.
Nice.
Oh, LA. So, it's early for you. Appreciate you joining.
And Madeline, where are you calling in from?
I am in Brooklyn, which is sunny for the first time in about a week. So, that's nice.
I am also calling in from Brooklyn. And yes, it is so nice out.
Really lovely day.
Well, it is just after the hour. So, maybe we can get started.
And then if folks file in, they can always listen back.
Or like I said, listen later when we put these talks on our site.
How does that sound? Is everyone ready to go?
All right.
Well, hello and welcome to the Source Talk Series.
My name is Elizabeth Sweet, and I'm the communications lead at Feralphile.
I am thrilled today to be joined by Sarah Zucker, Anna Lucia, Finger Code, also known as Junior,
Travis Smalley, and Madeline Pierpont in a conversation called Fabrics of Time and Space
for the final talk of the Source Talk Series.
Now, Source is a non-commercial exhibition on Feralphile featuring artworks made in the last several years
which use software as a medium.
The Source curators, Operator, Deafbeef, and Casey Reese, spent hours discussing generative works
that have impacted them over the years.
And here's an excerpt from the curator's statement.
This is not an attempt at a survey exhibition or defining a new canon.
This is simply a selection of work that the four of us are thinking about right now.
For those of us in the middle of art, code, and blockchains for the last few years,
there's been little to no time to pause and reflect on what has happened.
Sources are attempting to do that collaboratively.
Now, Anya, Catherine, and Dija T from Operator, Deafbeef, and Casey Reese all wrote wonderfully
thoughtful and rich descriptions about each of the 25 works exhibiting in Source.
And I recommend that you check those out after the talk.
And you'll see at the top of the chat here that threads with these reflections,
with snippets from these reflections on Sarah's work, Anna's, Juniors, and Travis's
are all pinned there.
So please do check them out.
So I'd like to go ahead and introduce today's talk.
Now, all the works exhibited by these artists in Source are either explicitly or implicitly
referencing fabric as a thematic element.
And when crafting the title of this talk, I wondered if the title was a little too on
the nose, and it might be.
But I also think there's something important to be discussed about the digital materiality
of generative works, which have such expressly physical roots, and their effects on time,
culture, and our perception of both.
So we have Anna Lucia's Generations and Finger Code's Nth Culture, which demonstrate
the transmutability of space and the culture from which they emerge, bringing us digital
works that add contemporary dimension to tradition and showing us what can come of that.
And we have Travis's Pixel Rugs, which Travis releases over time, treating certain aesthetics
as limited.
I'm seeing it kind of as like one might go through a bolt of fabric and then turning to
the next.
And then we have Sarah Zucker's work.
And Sarah explores nonlinear time with Temporale, weaving together multiple timelines, not only
her signature digital and analog tools, but the very timelines of her own practice.
And I just want to say that I am so thrilled about this conversation to be with you all
today.
Thank you for making time, especially during these busy times and in a time when things
are very heavy.
And I also just want to say thank you to Madeline Pierpont, Web3 Associate at MoMA, for leading
the discussion today.
I'm really glad to be with you, Madeline.
And so without further ado, I'll pass it over to you to get us started.
Thanks so much, Elizabeth.
Really happy to be here.
Anna, I've been working with you on a project, but Sarah, Travis, and Junior, it's really,
really lovely to e-meet you in this space.
And I'm really, really excited to chat about fabrics of source and time.
I'm also going to quote the curatorial statement to just start with kind of an open-ended question.
So Casey, Anya, Deja, and Deafbeef say, from our perspective, blockchains have forever changed
generative and digital art over the last few years.
Remarkably, nearly every artwork in source was created using technologies that didn't exist
until recently.
The galleries, platforms, and institutions that released them have only been around for
a few years.
Some of the artists in this exhibition have been working for a decade, but found an audience
for the first time in 2021, as people started to collect online digital art with unprecedented
energy.
This is another way to say the artwork and artists assembled here for source could not have
happened before now.
This work is contemporary, and only time will tell how things change from here.
Source is a moment in time.
So given that statement, I just wanted to open the conversation up with a question around
each of your reflections on this moment, on this specific moment in time, in art, tech,
history, and in Web3 history.
And if each of you could just speak a little bit to how your work in source responds to
Sarah, if you don't mind, we can start with you.
Oh, sure.
I don't mind.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Having a stretch and a yawn.
It is early here.
Um, yeah, uh, I think that, um, what excites me about the source exhibition is it's naming
something that I think many of us working here, uh, feel, um, but don't always know how
to express, um, just the sort of specialness and weirdness of this time.
Um, this ability to addition our work on the blockchain has not been around very long.
Um, people often point out that I'm sort of part of that early cohort of, of quote unquote
pioneers.
And I've, you know, I've been doing this since 2019.
Um, that's not very long in the grand scheme of life.
Um, so it's all emerged and mutated so rapidly, um, as things do in our current era.
Uh, I recently read a book I absolutely love called Mega Nuts that I highly recommend to
anyone, uh, involved in this space or who uses the internet at all.
Uh, it basically talks about how we are living in a moment where we have a velocity of information,
the likes of which has never been accessible or possible, uh, in human history.
And I think, uh, we experienced that on macro and micro levels.
Um, this space I think is actually a perfect example of the effect of, um, mega nets on a
culture.
Um, this began with a bunch of like nerdy artists like myself playing around with something
and, um, experimenting and, uh, you add in a global pandemic and, uh, within a matter of
a couple of years, it has just become something both so real and, uh, something that has so rapidly
already gone through an entire cycle.
Um, so without, without waxing too poetic, cause I want to hear from the other artists,
I will say my feeling right now is that that cycle has completed, uh, this year, uh, the
snake is eating its own tail and we are finding ourselves in kind of this quiet moment before
the next cycle really ramps up with all of its majesty and terror that it is sure to invoke.
Majesty and terror.
Majesty and terror.
I like that.
Thank you, Sarah.
Junior, I wonder if you have any thoughts.
No, we can also turn to, uh, Travis.
Oh yeah, sure.
I can, I can, uh, talk about it a little, um, I, uh, hold on one second, I'm gonna say
one side.
Um, yeah, I, I, it, like there is, so I started making work on the internet in 2007 and I would
share it through Flickr and I found a whole community of artists through Flickr and then,
then that like turned to like net art and there was like this website, nasty nets and me and
my friends, uh, started one called Lashadka and, um, and then there was computers club and
that was like a whole other kind of group of people online in like 2011 or something where
we were sharing a lot of work.
And then I feel like after computers club, it all kind of, uh, went, um, offline for a little
bit or something.
And, um, we were all still making work, but it just was trying it in different ways and
printing it and, um, ways that you can exhibit it.
And, uh, in, in like around 2015 or so, I started, uh, um, writing programs to help me
generate work.
I was just like interested in this idea of like, what, how can the computer make drawings
for me or how can I collaborate with the computer to make drawings?
Um, and then when everything started blowing up, uh, I realized that there was like all
these artists around the world who were thinking about this too.
And, um, it, all of a sudden I felt like I had this scene again, like this whole group
of people where we were supporting each other and, and, uh, talking about each other's work.
And, but the, the thing that was different is that it felt like way more global than it
did, um, uh, in the earlier versions for me, at least I was being introduced to artists
work that I, I, I would have, I don't know how I would have had a chance to see it before
just because on different scenes or whatever.
But, um, uh, so I guess for me, it's like, I relate to it on that community level.
It's just, uh, and, and still do like, I feel like Twitter is that my, that that's how I
use Twitter now is basically just as this kind of platform to find out what other artists
are doing.
And, and it, and it all happened so fast too, that if I'm like, it's, it's hard to kind
of stop, slow down and reflect.
Like, uh, last month, like I was going back through like everything that I had purchased
on Hickett Nunk.
And there were just so many artworks from artists that like I was blown away by, but I was, I was
seeing him in so rapid, rapid succession, like I wouldn't follow up and kind of research
what the work was about.
And only now, like two years later, am I like doing that research.
Um, but yeah.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I had a little technical issue there, but.
Thanks.
Thanks, Travis.
And thanks junior junior.
I'm wondering if, um, you might like to respond and then we'll pitch it to Anna.
Yeah, sure.
Um, so kind of similar to Travis, uh, in the sense that like I started.
I guess doing art online or sharing my work online around like the my space era.
And that's coincidentally how I started to code as well.
Um, and then over the years I've predominantly like works within like the music space.
So creating like event flyers, mixed their part work logos, just any kind of digital asset.
Um, and it's primarily through the lockdown phase, you know, where everyone was locked inside
at home that I, I guess, uh, I boosted my practice to something a bit more, uh, physical.
So I was doing a lot of like interactive works using like, uh, connect sensors, um, and just
a whole bunch of different devices.
Um, and this is prior to like me even knowing what the, the whole blockchain NFT space was
about.
So when I eventually came across it in like late 2021 through the art, it's called a lot
and, um, also like Dimitri Cherniak and, uh, I had shells, et cetera.
It was like being given like a, what's the word, a key to like a sweet shop, right?
And you just, there's so many things and you just constantly just going.
Right.
Um, so yeah, um, when you were talking about source being a way to like reflect on everything,
I think it's actually very wise that we do do that because there's been a lot of innovation,
um, and it happens so quickly that we do forget.
Uh, so yeah, that's been, that's my experience in this world so far.
And Deafbeef, I, I, uh, noticed that you, you requested to speak, so we'll get to you in
a second.
Um, but Anna, wondering if you'd like to respond.
Yeah, sure.
Um, I'll try not to repeat what has already been said by the other speakers.
Um, first of all, I would like to say I'm very happy to be here and especially be here
with Sarah and Travis and Fingacode.
I really, um, admire their projects as well.
Uh, been a long time, uh, admirer, admirer of the pixel rugs as well.
So, um, very excited to hear more about that from you and, um, yeah, looking back at kind
of like, uh, compared to the other speakers, I've only started to create my work online
fairly recently.
And I think actually I did a lot of my, let's say, um, uh, experimentation during the last kind
of two years that it has been of this, uh, web three coming really, um, like, lit a, lit
a match to that.
And it feels like a bit of, uh, like passing a role.
We're in full of experimentation.
And, uh, now we're finally in a time where, for example, through an exhibition like source,
we can look back at like what the works that have been created and take a lot more pause
and take a lot more time with, uh, with what, what has happened.
And I think actually already, I'm also doing that for myself in my own practice right now,
just taking a lot more time, um, to let things, you know, maybe ferment a little bit or, um,
yeah.
And I think Generations is already a, a project for me personally, where I was actually able,
able to do that, um, you know, while the whirlwind was already, uh, maybe chasing to say like,
hey, let's, let's slow down a little bit.
Let's take our time.
Maybe this doesn't have to be done in a month.
Maybe this can be done in six months as well.
Um, so yeah, I'm happy things are a little bit slower.
Thank you all.
Yeah.
So I wanted to jump with that context into a little bit more specificity around, um, this
notion of textural work.
Um, each of these works is textural in some way, whether in specific reference to textiles
and craft or using pixel as texture.
Um, and each of them to me feel like they have a strong physicality to them.
What do you all feel is the relationship of digital as a medium to physical as a medium
in terms of concept design and execution?
Um, and we can start with, uh, let's start with Travis first.
Okay.
Yeah.
Hold on one second.
Um, I, I, the thing I've been, because I think this, this, this, that language of like
moving between physical and digital and digital physical is something, uh, I've, I've used
in terms of like, when I talk about my work for a really long time, I recently found out
that at MIT, there's this place called the center for bits and atoms, and it's like a
whole, uh, lab that's based on this idea of converting things, uh, into bits and converting
things into atoms.
Like how do we get things onto the computer and how do we get things off of the computer?
And I find, I find something really nice about this being a place that exists that people
are working at and, and, and thinking about in lots of different ways.
Um, for a really long time with my work, it was, I would make something physically, physically,
uh, scan it into the computer to get this kind of save state and then keep working on
it so that if I messed up a drawing or something, I could just print another copy out and keep
working on it.
And it was like my way of getting save states.
Um, and so I, I think that just that kind of messiness of language when you're moving from
drawing and painting to Photoshop, uh, or to whatever kind of software you're using, uh,
it's fun to let that kind of verbiage slip to let the language slip.
And, um, and also I feel like as, as like your technique or gets better, it's like, there's
all kinds of other slips that you can try to make happen, like making things feel out of
time or from a different time.
Um, and, uh, uh, it's like that, that's the kind of work that always like engages me.
Like when I, when I can't kind of parse right away when it was, where it's from, but I have
to kind of look, I got to like look up close at the pixels or something to kind of understand
like where and how this was made, like to tell if it was shocked or not.
Yeah.
Um, oh, and also like, I didn't say this in the first, I don't like, there's like such
a, I feel like some people are really great at kind of the preamble in here, but thank
you for having me.
I will also, like, I love all the other artists that are involved in this.
Um, and so, yeah, just wanted to say that too.
Thank you, Travis and, uh, Anna, we'll jump to you now.
Yeah.
I think you already did like, um, Madelena, what you say about these four works really
resonates with me in a sense that, yeah, they are perhaps referencing physical medians, but
at the same time, they are all, uh, very digital in their, in their sense, which is something
that I very much appreciate and something that I really try to do in generations as well,
because it's so, uh, directly referencing, directly working with, uh, a physical counterpart
that I think has such kind of, uh, um, strong physicality to it.
Like, you know, the warmth quilt, maybe the fabric, the details of the fabric, maybe even
the weight of that quilt, the folds that that quilt can have.
And when I was working on this project, I was thinking so much about that.
And I felt like, well, I could try to emulate that in a digital sense.
I would maybe try to get that physicality into the digital work.
And any attempt that I did just felt like a, um, um, like it wasn't really hitting the right
notes.
So I chose to really, um, keep the work very digital and focus very much on the pixel, uh,
almost like kind of like referencing pixel art as well in the work.
So, um, yeah, it was something that I was, I was going over and back and forth in this project
a lot.
Um, yeah.
And it's an interesting thing to balance as well when referencing physical works.
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
I mean, to me, and I would imagine others feel similarly, I mean, digital, ultimately everything
digital is in a way physical if you, if you really trace it back to its roots.
So it's, it's really interesting to look at all of these works and how they, they represent
a specific articulation of that.
Thank you, Anna.
Um, junior, wondering what your thoughts are.
Yeah.
So obviously with the fabrics that I was referencing in my works, uh, they're all handmade and there
isn't like a guide or any sort of, you know, place I could have found instructions.
Uh, and when I was doing my research into it, to get out like a lot of the motifs and the
designs and the whole process is pretty much passed down from like mother to daughter,
so on and so forth.
So, um, when I got around to like trying to articulate that in code, I found, uh, what's
the word?
I found that that translation was not as easy to nail the aesthetic.
So that's when I had to kind of trace back like my whole intention with the project and
basically create, uh, what's the word?
Like a newer generation of a particular style, but, but using, you know, technical and I guess
coded means.
Um, so it's, what's the word?
Um, it's been like an interesting, it's been an interesting kind of overlap, uh, going back
and forth.
Cause obviously I wanted to also create physicals, uh, from the digital assets, but, uh, it doesn't
go back as easily the other way around.
So I've had like a, I guess probably a different journey to everyone else on this one.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Just jumping off of that, just to go on a slight side route, Junior, both you and Anna, um,
in particular reference very specific textiles.
So whether it's Junior in your case, textiles from Cameroon or Anna, the, um, GB quilters.
I just wondered if you could speak a little bit more to what that process was in those
specific reference points and the conversation between the digital and the physical, how those
specific textiles, that specific craft, whether it be the GBs, GB quilters or, um, Cameroon
textiles influenced the ultimate digital output.
Do you want to go first, I know, or should I?
Okay, I'll go.
Um, right.
So, uh, as I was mentioning how the, the, um, the different methods are passed down through
generations, that's actually where a lot of my influence came into it.
So the, the, the fabrics, I guess that my mother would wear or like my grandmother would
wear change with the generations, right?
So kids that I guess are now my age, twenties, thirties, they have modernized the styles to
suit, you know, the, the, the more modern Westernized styles of clothes.
So I kind of had to, I mean, at first it was a mental block because I was trying to not
disrespect culture.
Right.
But when I kind of sat down and I looked at this chain of like change over time, I felt
like, okay, there's a, there's a possibility here to create a new narrative whilst keeping
the roots of, you know, the, the garments in question.
And, um, I mean, it's not even a year since, so I'm kind of hoping that like, you know,
people have understood this kind of, uh, evolution, um, and it, you know, it translates well with
regards to its historical place.
Thanks for that context.
Anna, wondering what you're thinking.
Um, in terms of the process of translating such a, such a, uh, uh, kind of like working
with more of a direct reference, right?
That's, that's the question just for me to have it right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In a sense.
Yeah.
I think it was quite, uh, um, obviously you go kind of down different paths.
There have been, um, you know, conversations with the cheese band quilters themselves, like
through, um, uh, online, online calls.
Uh, and then there has been, um, obviously just, just reading about the work and doing
the research in that sense.
But, um, when it comes to, to really making the work, to really make the algorithm, I think
it was a very intuitive approach for me, uh, for this project where I just, I just looked
at the quilts a lot.
Um, I didn't make very, uh, very, uh, let's say strict, um, uh, notes or anything, you know,
uh, I was just like looking, looking at them a lot, um, working in my code, looking at them
again, going back and forth until I hit a moment in the algorithm.
And where I was like, oh, I'm actually recreating what I'm looking at right now.
Um, and that was all kind of like an intuitive back and forth.
And I feel like once I, I had that system where I was like, oh, now I'm actually like one-on-one
almost starting to recreate what I'm seeing.
Uh, I also started to try and take it a step forward of like now that, that we have this
base, um, how can we, uh, explore it even further to see like what, what can emerge from
this system.
If for example, you start combining two different quilts, um, that are, that I'm references or
two different quilters, et cetera.
Um, so yeah, it was a very intuitive process, I would say.
Thank you so much for explaining more of the process.
It's really beautiful.
Um, Sarah, I just wanted to pitch the original question back to you.
Um, let me just, as a quick reminder, what do you see as the relationship of digital as
a medium to physical as a medium in terms of concept design execution?
Oh, I love this question.
Um, and it's, it's so fascinating to hear everyone else's process.
I, I really, uh, Travis really sort of got my neurons firing, um, that I know for myself
at least, and I think that this is true and in sort of different ways for, for some of
the other artists working here.
Um, I don't think there's actually a clean dichotomy between the digital and the physical.
And I know that the curator Regina Harsani went on a great riff about this earlier this
year on Twitter, um, you know, in sort of a more, from a more technical perspective of
why that's not, um, those are not actually two different poles.
Um, and, uh, in my case, I've often said, um, I feel like I am a sculptor with light and
time on videotape.
And in the case of Temporal specifically, um, Temporal began as, uh, video of, uh, iridescent
fabrics and, and fabrics that have like an unstable luminosity to them.
Um, um, because I think like literal physical fabrics that have kind of unstable luminous
properties illustrate, uh, light and time well, you know, when they move and undulate.
And so that was sort of the origin of all of this for me was literally working with fabrics.
Um, and, uh, yeah, I, uh, my process is very, uh, like digital analog hybrid.
And so, um, I think it's fun.
It's really fun to be included in this exhibition and have my work be understood from a generative
art perspective, because in my case, the software I'm using really is myself.
Um, it's really the, the, um, uh, more of a human based software system, uh, where I really
developed a sort of, um, I don't know what to call it.
I guess almost a dance in my studio of working with these fabrics and then recreating the fabrics
using stable diffusion.
So half of Temporal has a physical origin and half of Temporal has a virtual origin.
Um, because I think we are at this interesting moment in time where we, where we can recreate
so much of the physical, uh, in the virtual.
And so, uh, yeah, so my process really, it's begins, it's, it's video art, but it goes in
and out of the digital, you know, I work with digital footage.
I work with digital tools, but then I bring it all into an analog ecosystem where I'm essentially
herding light through electronic circuits of all these vintage broadcast devices that
I use, um, and, and both in and out of a vintage CRT TV screen.
So there's a sort of weaving that's happening in the process itself, like a weaving between
the, the virtual and the physical in the work that I do.
So that's really fascinating.
I, and I want to get to a little bit more on each of your specific works.
So I think this is a great, uh, starting place for that.
It seems like, especially with the, the title Temporal, the concept of time is really critical
to this work.
And, and like you mentioned, you're weaving together perhaps different timelines as well
in, um, you know, building off of the software that is yourself.
I wonder if you could speak a little bit more to that and the importance of, of time in
Temporal.
Yes, I'd be happy to.
Um, exactly.
I think time and a manipulation of time, uh, is essential at every stage of Temporal.
Um, like I said, beginning with these movements of fabrics and the movements themselves were
choreographed, um, using turntables, uh, and lights and other devices in my studio.
Um, and what I was aiming to depict in each image of Temporal, what you're seeing is the
fourth dimension in, you know, in this plane, this still image.
Um, and one of the really, uh, important functional aspects of how Temporal is created
is a process called slit scanning, um, which is actually related to the origins of cinema,
uh, and Edward Muybridge, um, where slit scanning is, you know, revealing sort of one line at
a time, like exposing a frame one line at a time.
Um, and so therefore allowing motion to be rendered in a flat image, um, and deaf beef who so kindly
curated me into this exhibition has, uh, you know, a great, a great project that recently
came out, um, inspired by Muybridge and, and I'm sure a lot of us, um, you know, we're always
in dialogue with these, these people who kind of came before us and kind of kicked this whole
thing off.
So, um, yeah, so that's really the thinking with Temporal and I, in my case, uh, a lot
of the sort of like narrative inspiration for why I wanted to do this and why I wanted to
do it in a simple, but beautiful way, uh, is I'm a huge fan of the, of the author, Kurt
Vonnegut.
And I read his books, you know, when I was like in middle school and he has this planet, uh,
that appears throughout various of his books called Tralfamador, where the entities that
live on Tralfamador can see, can see the fourth dimension in a single plane.
Uh, and the way he describes that is like human beings see time as one moment followed by another,
like a strand of pearls, but on Tralfamador, they can see time.
Like they're looking at a mountain range and yes, they can focus on each peak of the mountain
range, but they can also look and see the entire range at once.
And so they don't experience grief the way that we experience grief, uh, because they
can see everything that came before and everything that's coming after.
And, um, Vonnegut's work is actually, I mean, his entire body of work is basically him processing
the horrors that he saw as a prisoner of war during World War II.
Um, which is an aspect of it, I think that's only become apparent to me more and more as
I've reread it, as I've gotten older.
But I think for me, Temporel being released in April of this year in the manner that it
was released, it's not that I was processing grief exactly, but I definitely, um, this was
my first one of one of X series.
Uh, like I said, I, I am not, uh, typically working with code, I should say, I'm not, I'm
not a code-based artist.
And so, um, in wanting to expand in this kind of series and ask myself how I do this kind
of series, I really was, has just been, have just been so struck by my experience of time
and the collapsing of time and the muddling of time that occurred during the pandemic and
during the rise of NFTs and mainstream consciousness and how that's affected me as a very, um, soft
and squishy and sensitive artist who was suddenly thrust into a very strange position.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, this, I, that was so beautifully said, the collapsing of time and muddling of time in
the pandemic, I mean, I think it's, um, it's difficult to look back at the past three years
and actually chart out like a specific timeline.
Um, it's kind of wild.
I wanted to, thank you very much, Sarah.
I wanted to also, as I noticed it's 1240, so I want to try and make sure we get to everyone
to speak specifically on their work.
I wanted to jump to you, Travis, to talk about, um, the Pixel Rug project and how it came about.
I have to say, personally, it's been such a treat to almost every day open to my Twitter
feed and see, um, a different Pixel Rug output.
I haven't collected yet, but I have my eye, I have my eye on them.
Um, so I was wondering if you could just talk about the process, how it came about, what your
choice, why you made the choice to have, uh, one output almost every day, although that's
not necessarily a specific cadence.
And then if you could also just speak to, um, I think what's really interesting about
the work is when it's examined close up versus further away, really, as you zoom in, you get
totally new context and depth to the work just as you zoom out.
Um, so yeah, if you could just talk a little bit more about your technical process and then
also your, um, the way in which you decided to share Pixel Rug with the world.
Oh, thank you.
Thanks for the kind words, too.
Um, yeah.
Uh, okay.
So, uh, hold on.
I'm, I'm talking about where it comes from, the kind of cyclical, like, time-based nature
of it.
Um, it comes from, the project comes from a lot of places, like, and, uh, partially,
like, it, it started with Minecraft.
I think a lot of my, like, generative art started with Minecraft when I played that for
the first time and just started to comprehend what procedural generation can mean in kind
of emergent play, uh, what creating inside of other people's systems could be.
Um, I have, like, a whole line of research on Arena called Creativity and Gameplay that looks
so the way people mod games and kind of all the kind of emergent characteristics that
can come out of it.
Uh, but so in 2015, when I played Minecraft for the first time, that was, like, when I
started thinking a lot about, like, how I could use computation, procedural generation
to, um, to make work.
Um, I also, like, the indexical nature, um, uh, pixel grids, uh, I, I saw this thing at
the, uh, this one drawing that was from the 1700s from this, like, German text
styles book, um, and I was just struck by how similar it felt to me to, uh, like, the
pixel matrix that I would play as a kid on a Gameboy.
And, um, and also, uh, uh, uh, in growing up in West Virginia, um, like, I come from,
like, uh, like, everyone in my family would make, uh, was, was into cross-stitching and
also quilt making.
And as I was, like, researching pixel art and this kind of, like, gridded way of making
things, I ended up finding out, like, there's this one artist from, uh, like, Appalachia.
I think she was, she moved between Virginia and North Carolina, Frances Louisa Goodrich.
And there's a institution down in North Carolina that has high-resolution scans of, like, all
of her drawings that she made back in 1900, uh, for her weaving patterns.
And it would have the kind of grid with the kind of watercolors filling in to show different
colors.
And then at the bottom, there was a score.
And that score was kind of the weaving of it.
It was numerical.
And, um, so it all started to collapse together for me when it came to that.
Um, I, before making these, I was doing daily paintings, uh, before I'd make the pixel rugs,
I was doing these daily paintings.
And that was thinking about, I had gotten sick of writing computer programs to make my paintings.
And so I was like, well, how about I make a computer, how about I make a script?
And then I am the program, I, I enact it.
So I drew out all these, I had like the set of rules that would make, uh, these kind of
botanical brush paintings.
And I did it for a couple of years.
And so I think I've always liked to have these kind of daily practice kind of works.
Um, also thinking about like artwork as a song, like you might like, uh, uh, you can sing
a song over and over again, and every time you sing it, you can have different inflections,
you can add different verses, you can change the rhythm.
And so I think pixel rugs in that way too.
Um, yeah, like I flew down, I'm like in a cafe in New Orleans right now and just had
grits and it was really good.
Uh, but I just got off a plane and like I sat on the plane from the way here and, um, made
my run for the day.
Um, and, um, it's, it's also this kind of continually thinking about, um, what I like
and don't like.
It's about, uh, finding new programs.
Like I'm always adding new scripts that do slight changes to it.
Like I have a new kind of generative feel that I've been working on that I'm really excited
to incorporate more into the rugs.
Um, yeah.
And also like, kind of like painting practices are really big for me.
And I think a lot about Terry Winner's paintings and drawings a lot and, um, uh, Eduardo Palazzi's
posters, um, circuit diagrams, uh, uh, Mark Wilson, you could go on.
I could talk forever about all the things I love.
Um, I hope I answered some of those questions.
Thank you so much.
Do you have a, do you have a favorite so far?
Uh, it changes a lot.
There, there's like one that was like two or three from the beginning.
That I, I was one of the first ones that I actually got to make as a physical rug.
And I think that is kind of like a sentimental, like kind of, that's the beginning of the series,
like kind of symbolizes a lot.
But usually most days, whatever one I make is my new favorite.
Otherwise I wouldn't put it up.
So it's, um, it's, it's tough.
It always changes.
Uh, but I also really appreciate you talking about the kind of zoom in and zoom out.
Um, it's like, I, I'm always, I feel like that's still like this hurdle that I haven't figured out
how to completely address with people.
It's like looking closely, look at the 10,000 pixel version.
Uh, it's, it's hard.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I see that Anna has her hand up.
So I'll, I'll pitch it to you.
Anna.
Yeah.
Can I ask a question to Travis?
Please, please.
Yeah.
Um, I'm very curious about how does your curation process work for the, for the rugs?
Like, let's say you make one in a day, like how many are you saving a bunch of outputs and
you're picking one?
Is it just at some point, you know, an output hits and that's it for the day?
Um, yeah, I'm very curious about kind of like what the workflow for these individual
curated pieces from this kind of living algorithm, how that works.
Okay.
Thanks for the question.
And I, I've worked here for a long time.
I used to exhibit with this photo gallery called higher pictures and the director of
the gallery like talked about how when photographers have contact sheets, right?
Like they go out and shoot a lot of photos, right?
And then you have this like whole contact sheet of all of them and you're kind of going through
and circling your favorites.
And I found that kind of positioning really helpful in making me not freak out about
this, like the kind of editing choices of it.
Um, and also like my process is super messy.
It's like a combination of JavaScript, Apple script, Photoshop actions, uh, dither patterns
that are generatively made, dither patterns that are scripted.
And I'm always kind of turning things on and off, rendering out a bunch, picking one as
a source and then going from it.
So it's just, it's really messy.
And, um, and, and usually it's, it's like when I get to a good one, I just like, I'm
like, okay, I'm done.
I'm going to stop.
But if you, if you look at the like numerical naming of it, sometimes it'll be like a really
high number at the end.
And that's because like, I just kept going and I couldn't get it.
And so like, that was finally when I was able to kind of stop.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Thank you both.
And Anna, we'll, um, let's chat a little bit more about Generations.
I wonder if you could speak a little bit more to the evolving conversation that you had with
the G's Ben quilters.
It was really exciting to read, um, more about what that conversation was.
And also particularly interesting to note that perhaps they were a little bit hesitant
to explore NFTs and blockchain.
And so if you could just talk a little bit more about that process and collaborating
with the G's Ben quilters.
Yeah, sure.
I think the, uh, initial conversations for me didn't immediately start with the G's Ben
quilters, but actually with the producer of the project, uh, Robert Hill, who is from Alabama
and, um, uh, had this idea of doing an NFT collection around the G's Ben and he just started talking
about me, uh, about their work.
Um, and we had a back and forth and I was immediately very, uh, intrigued and, um, um, yeah, I immediately
kind of saw an overlap as well with generative art because he was a bit like, yeah, what
do you think about doing generative art project around this?
And I immediately kind of saw like unexpected overlaps.
So that got me kind of excited.
And then at some point he was like, well, would you like to do it as the, as an artist on this
project?
And, uh, I got really excited.
Uh, I first, uh, got to know Mary Margaret, who is the, the, the daughter of, of, uh, Lucy
Pettway of, who is one of the, the quilters that, um, uh, the, the body of work is incorporated
into the Generations project.
And, um, it was amazing to meet her.
We, it was nice really meeting her because you realize as, as artists, sometimes, you know,
you, you talk about these high concepts, but I always feel if artists get together, uh,
we start to talk about like the technical parts, like the craft part.
Um, so it was really cool to, to hear about, you know, how she approaches, uh, making these
quilts and then later also got to know the other three, uh, quilters and hear more about
their, also just their story of where they're from and, um, you know, how they grew up.
Um, and then after that, I think it was more me sitting really with their, with their work
and, and looking at their, like I said, like just looking at their work a lot.
Um, and later on towards the end of the project, they, uh, they, they help curate the, um, the
final outputs, uh, again.
So there was kind of like this, this new conversation again of like what I did, um, um, for them to
see that and yeah, what I also, um, wanted to add just one thing that, that really kind
of just shocked me.
I had to think about it because I was like, oh, talking about the craft.
So, uh, Mary Margaret is actually turning some of the NFTs into physical quilts for collectors
if they, they can, uh, they can commission these works.
And so, uh, we, we asked her like, so how does that work?
Like, how do you make it?
And she's just like, yeah, I just look at it.
And, and I was just so, um, you know, uh, it was so cool to hear that.
Like, how do you, how do you, how did you turn that NFT into a quilt?
She's like, oh, I just looked at it.
So there was also kind of maybe that similarity of what I did, what I was just like shocked that
that's how, how it would come to be.
And I think also in this sense, Arsenal was just, uh, an amazing partner to work with
as well, because they are coming from the Artist's Rite Society.
Like it's kind of like the NFT platform or the, of the Artist's Rite Society.
And they have a very longstanding relationship with the G-SPAN quilters and I've worked with
them for many years.
So it was also great to have them, uh, as a partner on this project.
Thank you so much, excuse me, Junior.
I'd like to turn to you to talk a little bit more about Nth culture.
Um, each work in a series, as I mentioned before, takes inspiration from textiles from Cameroon
and a series as a whole follow specific parameters with a variety of colors, patterns, and textures.
I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the creative process.
And then also specifically the importance of the title and what it really means to you
in relation to the body of work.
Okay.
So I guess I'll start with the title because that's probably like the most important part
for me.
So obviously, um, I was born in Africa, in Cameroon, um, Africa specifically, I guess.
Um, and like, I've grown up in like, um, I've grown up in the UK, uh, African parents, but
like a British, European, and I guess also, um, I live in a fairly diverse community.
So there's like Muslims, um, Sikhs, Christians, so on and so forth.
Right.
So I've kind of grown up with a myriad of influences.
So almost like code switching.
So when I'm at home with my mom, I'm speaking French.
I'm kind of like living under her rule when I'm at school and kind of speak with my friends
and, you know, I'm, I'm just kind of like mixed, um, uh, in existence basically.
And, um, a lot of the work up until end culture was very much a technical challenge.
Right.
So I had, um, I'd have like a particular aesthetic in my head and I was trying to figure out
technical ways to achieve that.
Now with end culture, I had to knuckle down in light into like my roots and kind of like
where I was coming from and, uh, understand my cultural, like fiber, you know, given all
these different influences and kind of trying to understand how they have influenced, you
know, the work I did prior.
So now when I was kind of creating it, um, I've got this technical knowledge, but I don't
necessarily have the cultural understanding.
So that was, um, you know, where the, the, the, the, the main struggle was for me.
Um, but like I said earlier on, kind of that process is what makes it so special to
me because I guess it's when I actually turned into an artist.
Like, cause I had, um, uh, what's the word?
Ah, what's the term?
I had an incentive.
I had like an ulterior motive, I had a motive, uh, uh, to actually create something that represents
the culture, but not only directly, but also adds aspects of other things that are in my
life.
So having been a software engineer for 10 years, doing code and writing code and all that
stuff, I had to figure out all of those different, you know, how to link those two worlds.
Um, so yeah, I hope I haven't confused anyone, but that's kind of the, the, the general direction
of that.
No, I love, thank you so much.
And I love that articulation of understanding my cultural fiber.
That's really beautiful.
We are just about out of time.
So I'm going to ask one final question and it's pretty simple.
What is your source for each of you?
I can define that a little bit more.
What is your source, whether that be information, inspiration, hope, aesthetics, but the simple
question is, what is your source?
Um, I think I will, I'll pitch it to Sarah first and then, um, we just trying to be cognizant
of time to get, um, everyone's responses.
Yeah, I'll be concise.
I guess I'll just say the first thing that comes to mind that my source is my weird inner
vision.
Beautiful.
Uh, junior.
Um, I guess my source is the vibe.
So whatever I'm feeling at the time.
Um, I love that, Travis.
This is fun.
Uh, digital color.
I don't know.
Digital color.
I love that.
And Anna.
Uh, for me, it's systems.
I'm always thinking about systems, either, um, digital or physical systems and how to create
them.
Thank you so much.
You were all very concise.
Um, with that, I will, I will hand it back.
Off to Elizabeth to close us out and ask any remaining questions.
Thank you all so much.
It's truly been a pleasure speaking with each of you and learning more about these amazing
works.
And thank you to Feral File and Elizabeth for, uh, hosting me.
Thanks, Madeline.
And thank you all so much.
Travis, I wanted to just bounce back to you.
I saw your hand up.
Did you want to add something else?
Yeah, I just really liked Anna Lucia's.
I kind of agree with her on that one, too.
Amazing.
Well, I just want to, um, reiterate Madeline's thanks.
This conversation has been fantastic.
And I really appreciate all of your responses and thought and time.
Um, and thank you all for being part of the Source Talk series.
I can't believe it's over.
Uh, and it's just been a real treat to be with you all here and throughout the last few
weeks, really in this moment to both look back and reflect while also keeping up.
And I think that's something that's really special about this exhibition is that it's
happening right now.
Um, it's been, you know, front and center, at least of my mind on the Feral File feed
for the last, for the last several weeks.
And so it gives us this, this, this, this time, this opportunity to really kind of continue
with the momentum while also reflecting.
And it's been really an honor to reflect with all of you on your iconic works, um, and to
revisit all of them.
You know, I've been in this space for, for two or three years.
And I remember when all these pieces came out, but it was, you know, there's so much
happening all the time.
And, um, it's really nice to be, to have had been, to have had this time to be able to
like look back on them and to not only do my own research on them, but to hear what the
curators have to say about them too.
And if you haven't had an opportunity to go back and read the Reflections by, uh, Casey
Deafbeef, an operator, I really recommend you do.
They not only give a different kind of texture and dimension to the artwork, but really show you
what them as artists, what, what, what they think of the work.
Um, so anyway, all this is to say, thank you so much and really deepest gratitude to
Sarah, Anna, Jr., Travis, and Madeline for leaving this conversation.
Um, it's been, it's been fantastic, better than I ever could have imagined.
And, um, that's thanks to all of you.
And so with that, the source talk series is complete.
Uh, and I, as I mentioned at the top of the hour, uh, we will be uploading all of the
talks to our site.
So you can revisit them as much as you'd like.
Uh, we will of course let you know when that happens and the exhibition will remain
open in perpetuity.
Um, so there will always be a link to this, um, to this exhibition on our site.
And again, it's non-commercial, which I think is something else that we haven't really touched
on, um, in, in too great of debt and too great of depth.
But the fact that it is non-commercial kind of removes this aspect or this element of like
needing to think about the floor or the price or swapping or this or that.
And it's, it's, it's not about that.
It's really about the artwork and the, um, and the, and the aesthetics and the themes
that we're all, that we're all dealing with and searching through.
And I think that this talk has really showed us that there are so many different ways to
interpret time and to see it and to express it.
Um, so with that, um, I'd also like to say that we have another exhibition opening up our
next exhibition on Thursday, October 12th.
It's an exhibition called truth.
And it's a show curated by Adam Berninger featuring PressTube, Bezor, Charlotte Dan, Tyler Boswell,
Hal0999, Lisa Orth, Ella Hopner, and David Seven.
And this exhibition, I think is a really interesting one to follow source because this exhibition
looks at the different micro and macro skills that we navigate through and how perception
can change depending on what time you're in, what time the artist is in, and, um, and,
and really how we, how we reflect on the work that we see in front of us.
Um, and how different scales can, can change the way that we see the world.
So I would just love to invite you all to check out the exhibition when we open on Thursday.
Uh, but in the meantime, please do continue to read through the source reflections and
I'm going to stop talking and just say thank you again.
And if anyone has any last words, uh, please do feel free to jump in.
But other than that, it's really been a pleasure, a real privilege to organize this series.
And thank you to everyone who's attended.
Um, I do see Casey and Deafbeef in the audience here.
Um, thank you both and to Operator for curating this exhibition.
It's really been special.
Um, I think for, I mean, for the community and for Feralphile and just for all of the
artists who, who've been part of the series and the ones that we've spoken to about it
and all of the moderators, thank you all so much.
So with that, I would like to sign off and I just want to say thank you again.
It's been a real honor.
Have a great day, everyone.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Cheers.
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