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Spill The Alpha #18: Magic Internet Money w/ @udiWertheimer
Recorded: Aug. 14, 2025 Duration: 1:14:51Space Recording
Short Summary
In a lively discussion, Udi shares insights on the current crypto market trends, emphasizing the importance of Bitcoin exposure, the merging of crypto with traditional finance, and the psychological aspects of trading. The conversation highlights significant events, including a $13 million liquidation and the strategic partnership with Kuma, while encouraging a growth mindset among crypto enthusiasts.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. hey what's up man yo what's up all good all good how's it going did you survive the end of old times the dip today so far i think i survived the bear market of uh of 8 a.m to 10 a.m the ppi bear
market yeah that's crazy did you see i posted about it uh some dude on hyperliqu liquid got liquidated across every single pair that exists in hyper liquid
how much uh how much was the damage uh 13 million
well
well it happened yeah it's always funny you know every single time i see those big liquidations that are pretty ridiculous because like the move today was relatively tiny i always ask myself like
how did they even get their hands on like 13 million
like to begin with yeah ridiculous um but yeah man thank you so much for coming i really
appreciate it i wanted to have you
on for a really long time and i'm really happy we finally made it happen yeah man thanks for having
us us me i i have multiple personalities out there nice yeah well uh i want to welcome all of
our listeners to the 18th episode of uh spill the alpha today we have udi with us uh to those who don't know udi udi is a really
og long time og uh i've been following him for many years now uh talking about bitcoin mainly
about shitting on eth which is a classic and um and if you guys don't follow udi make sure to give
him a follow you can learn more about taproot Wizards, about his views on Bitcoin, reading his articles,
about the long-term view of Bitcoin, which is always a nice help in holding positions for longer.
So if you guys don't follow Woody, make sure to give him a follow.
And before we start, I want to remind everyone that on the bottom right corner, there's a chat box icon.
You can click on it at any moment and leave any questions that you have.
And we'll touch on them towards the end of the episode.
And yeah, before we jump into everything, huge thanks to Kuma for hosting these spaces now live with up to 50x leverage.
But don't use 50x leverage or you'll end up like that guy.
And we're currently giving out
around eight thousand dollars every single week in trading rewards uh so make sure to grab a piece of
that pie uh udi again huge thank you for coming man i've been following you for many many years
it's uh it's really awesome to have you on um so yeah i want to ask the first question i have is
uh tell us a little bit about your background.
How did you get into crypto, into Bitcoin?
And was there a pivotal moment that you had that made you realize you could just, okay, this is my thing now?
Let's see.
Yeah, you know, it was quite a bit of many years ago.
Um, I, I used to be, I was a software engineer at the time and, um, I actually, I don't remember
how exactly I first heard of it, but I remember very vividly that after I heard of Bitcoin,
I just basically couldn't,
and I think a lot of people have this experience,
just couldn't stop reading about it basically for like,
I don't know,
day and night for a month or whatever it was.
And,
you know,
basically lost all of my friends in,
in a short period of time as I,
as I was shilling them this thing,
which they were convinced was a pyramid
scheme and they're like man you used to be smart what's going on with you and uh um yeah I think
you know it's also kind of I think I was first interested in in funnily enough in the tech
right and you know back back then um ethereum didn't exist yet there
there was bitcoin there was a bunch of altcoins that were basically a copy of bitcoin with with
you know the the logo changed a little bit um and some parameters changed but it was basically like
the same thing so um i think bitcoin was technologically just very interesting.
There was nothing quite like it at the time.
I think now people might scoff at that, like, oh, this is like ancient tech.
But at the time, it was very interesting.
So I think that was the main draw for me in the beginning.
And, you know, I never really, really at the time i've never really made
any investments before that into anything other than you know holding some indexes or something
in a retirement account so uh i i probably only learned about the financial side of things through
the obsession obsession with the technical side.
What year was it when you found out?
Man, it was a long time ago.
Like 12 years ago or something stupid like that.
That's crazy.
You said some of your friends said like, oh, it's a pyramid scheme and stuff like that.
Don't you find it weird that people that were like in the, you know,
technical space kind of,
you know,
I don't think it's,
I don't think it's particularly weird.
I mean,
first of all,
people work in tech.
They tend to be relatively comfy.
Right.
So they're,
they're not,
they're like,
they're like,
they consider their lives to be figured out like
i just keep doing this thing and everything will be fine and um so they're not they tend to actually
not look for a lot of risk especially if you consider you know many of them are in startups
that's more than enough for them on the risk side so there a lot of them just didn't look for more risk um and and um and
look bitcoin at that time really did look like a pyramid scheme i mean i think the reason that i
i think what clicked for me at the time was i used to play as a hobby i used to play poker online
and i say it's a hobby because it was really like a
teeny tiny account of like whatever like 500 bucks or something and i would pay the lowest limits
and just have fun with it but um what i noticed was it was incredibly difficult to deposit and
withdraw funds because my bank account would not want to have anything to do with it right so so like it was it was very clear to me that the money i have in my bank account is not
fully in my control i i knew that through that experience um also you know all these poker
not all of them most of these poker sites blew up over their existence in one way or another.
So the idea of, you know, you have an account somewhere on the internet,
you have a number and you think that that's money you have,
but actually it doesn't exist.
That was also something that was very familiar to me.
So the idea of Bitcoin based on those two things just made sense to me.
Like I was like, okay, even if most people are not going to use this, it will at least
make sense for those edge cases where, where people want to do kind of semi shady stuff.
Um, so like it, it has a place in the world, I guess it was very obvious to me.
And if I think for most people, it just, there was just like, why not use a credit card?
What are you talking about?
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that makes sense.
It was pretty much the way I found out about Bitcoin as well.
We just wanted to do some things that, you know, bank, we knew banks are not going to
get involved in.
And crypto was just, you know, the answer.
From your experience of just being around for 12 years, pretty much,
I mean, you've been on CT for, what, 10 years or something like that, probably?
I think I probably started getting more public around, yeah,
almost 10 years ago, less than that.
Yeah.
So from your experience of just, you know, watching people,
interacting with people on CTt and just friends whatever that
might be and also your personal experience uh what do you feel are the most common or just
reoccurring issues that people have and how would you suggest them to solve them uh anything from
trading and just you know being involved in in this space well the number one issue that people seem to have is that they don't own any bitcoin
which is ridiculous and i i really think i really think it's ridiculous to be
to consider yourself a full-time crypto person and have zero percent exposure to this point i
i don't i don't i don't quite understand how how that works um but so yeah that that I think and and you know we can talk about
it later but I do expect bitcoins to actually go up multiples in the near term so uh I think you
know because the main reason people say they don't want to hold Bitcoin is because they think they missed the boat and i actually think that is uh not true but
so that's one thing um the uh yeah there's there's there's a lot of um
there tends to be in ct a lot of piling on on some bullshit uh there's always like some bullshit
everyone's talking about i think
one recent example is like kaido for example um and everyone's like oh you can make money on kaido
like yeah you can but um i would argue that if you want to if you want to make money with your
twitter account it's probably a better idea for you to find your niche, create real value.
And, and then you can have exponential value out of your CT account instead of like fucking,
I don't know, all figure airdrops every month, which like, I guess it's, it's nice, but like,
you could do so much better than that. You can do so much better than that if you create real relationships,
if you find some area to specialize in,
if you try to provide actual value instead of like AI slop,
then you can get to a point where you build a network,
people know who you are,
and a much, much bigger opportunity
to show at your doorstep.
But this is just one example.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is like
CT tends to have these like
favorite
consensus activities.
I'm not even talking about necessarily consensus trades,
but just a consensus
thing to do.
And I think
it always underperforms.
It's like, you can always do better than that yeah it feels like cd just has very very short-term like look forward you know
like nobody thinks really a year or two ahead yeah yeah yeah i think that's that's maybe maybe
part of the main thing yeah it's like um everyone wants to get rich in like a week, right?
Yeah.
And, you know, it just, first of all, it usually doesn't happen.
Second of all, the few, the very few people that does this happen to them,
usually like pure luck, they tend to lose it all very quickly
because, you know, i think the reason for that
is obvious like you you educate yourself to to take like absolutely stupid ridiculous risk that
makes no sense whatsoever and it works so you keep doing it yeah right um so like it's probably
not the right strategy and the and the silliest thing about it is you kind of...
I think at some point it became obvious to me,
and I think to a bunch of... I mean, I'm definitely not the only one, right?
That if you're in this market and you stay in this market,
you're going to up before everybody else.
So when you're taking risks,
you're not just risking the whatever your account is now you are
you're you're risking the crazy upside that we all know is coming and obviously you know a lot
of it did come already to be fair but i i think i think there's still a lot of upside so when when
people are like okay you know i only have 10,000 in my account. So I'm going to like just literally put all of it into some coin
that my favorite KOL just tweeted about.
What do I have to lose?
It's just $10,000.
Well, actually not really.
Those $10,000 can be, you know, $100,000 in a few years
if you just put them into Bitcoin or something, right?
So you're actually losing a lot more than that. So that's one way
to think about long-term. The other is the ability to create relationships and a network
in this space. It's like so easy. It's so easy to do that. You just have to keep at it and not,
It's like so easy. It's so easy to do that. You just have to keep at it and not, you know, scam people with stupid shit and not be like a useless AI poster. And it's like you create, you know, because if you assume that this space is going to grow exponentially, then that means that the people who are your friends today are also going to be increasingly more influential people
in, in, in three years from now.
So like it, it, it's, it's just going to compound if you create good
relationships today and it's stupid not to do that.
And yet I think a lot of people are just focusing on like, Hey, how do I make
a thousand bucks off the VX airdrop?
Which is like, it's fine.
I'm not saying don't do that but it's
really i don't think should be the focus yeah 100 it's uh you know what you've said about uh just
taking the extra risk and like saying oh there's not going to be multiples i'm too late um it's
like how we've seen btc even at like 50k and people were like oh now I'm not buying BTC
at 50k like there's no way it does it like 2, 3, 4x and we're already over 2x and most other
stuff didn't like BTC outperformed almost every single asset in this space you know during the last two years um and it just shows that you know most of
the time there's no reason to to take that extra crazy risk with like a huge amount of your
portfolio and i was wondering um you mentioned how you know nowadays it's obvious and most people have
barely any bitcoin not not even necessarily on the amount of Bitcoin, but just like percentage
wise of their portfolio. For those who are listening here, you know, many people are trading
shit coins, having like margin exchanges. How much would you suggest for them to keep
in percentages of their portfolio in BTC, for example?
Yeah, look, do you have any like uh any framework for it yeah I think it's that's a difficult
question um I think that zero percent is definitely the wrong number um and I I think I think there's
no point of me you know telling someone who has currently zero percent of their portfolio in
Bitcoin and you know 99 in in in meme coins that were created two days ago,
there's probably no point in me telling them to convert 100% into Bitcoin. That's not going to
happen in one go. We need to be realistic here. I think that at least 30% is the bare minimum.
And maybe some people would say that it should be 30% Bitcoin on ETH.
But not having 30% in majors, I think it's insane.
And I do think it's probably easier to focus on Bitcoin
because I think that the growth there is going to be more kind of almost predictable.
But, you know, the real point is like you've got to have some exposure.
Now, for a lot of people, it should be more than 30%.
Because, I mean, people should be honest with themselves and look at their
results I think you know and if you
if you look at
if you look at your you know we're talking about people
not beating Bitcoin in two years
I think there's a lot of people here
who are not beating the dollar in the last two years
you know
especially more than new ones
and I think people need to be honest with themselves about this stuff
and if you're just sitting in front of the screen all day
and you end up like not beating inflation,
then maybe you should have more Bitcoin, you know?
Yeah.
I feel like this cycle is teaching that, you know,
to a lot of people who are experiencing their first cycle,
that like holding majors, like just because they're so big and just,
you know, a lot of people learn that unit bias is not really important when when you're
talking about like two major major currencies like for example btc and eth look one of the things
about um um unit bias it was always important to get over the unit bias psychology thing but i think today it is
more important than ever because actually retail is at a disadvantage uh compared to wall street
wall street does not see the price period they don't see it they're they're the institutions are
you know you've got you know sailor has been doing this for months and in the recent couple
of weeks you've been seeing uh tom lee doing this just just firing all cylinders to get to raise as
much capital as he can as fast as possible and he's not looking at nobody you know when people
buy a bit mine stock or um or microstrategy or you know whatever they don't even see the bitcoin price right and when
and when the uh when the company deploys that capital into btc they don't see the price
when people buy uh ibit the bitcoin etf on blackrock they don't see 120k they see 70 bucks so like all these guys
actually have a psychologic advantage uh over us looking at the price on binance because they don't
see the scary big numbers they actually see low numbers and they see historical charts that are
they actually see low numbers and they see historical charts that are reasonable you know
they see a chart for i did went up 2x since listing okay like 2x in the last two years i
can work with that probably goes up more uh so like actually i think these days more than ever
people need to shake themselves out of the stupid unit bias thing because the the smart money is not look is not even seeing it it's
not on their charts so like get over yourself yeah it's like there's just so much fragmentation
right now where it's no no longer just us looking at our charts but like you know people are looking
from everywhere and it's uh it's a good example to how um you've mentioned how they don't care about it
and we've had i think it was yesterday on us open uh i don't remember the name of the guy but uh he's
he has like one of those companies that raises for treasury and uh he just market bought like 650
like a huge amount i don't know if it was really 650 million.
I don't think it was.
It doesn't look like it.
But there was a huge spike in price.
And he just tweeted about how he had a huge market buy today
and he wanted to do it his whole life, blah, blah, blah.
And it just made me think about it, about how, you know,
my first thought was like, dude, he wasted so much money.
For sure.
He could have bought like extra like 100, like 10 Bitcoin or something if he would have done it carefully.
But yeah, they just don't give a fuck.
They just want to deploy their money and that's it.
Yeah, so I think you're talking about David Bailey from Nakamoto.
And it's an interesting story.
They raised capital, I think it was two three months ago and
due to whatever like regulation compliance issues they had to wait before they deploy it
um and I think the day that they were finally able to do it was yesterday or something like that
um and and and people will obviously look and you know people made fun of Sailor for you for
for years right like he always buys the top and and what people don't understand is that these companies have a mandate that they
have to deploy they cannot not deploy it they're not allowed to sit on capital the only reason he
was sitting on that capital for so long was he legally was required to because of whatever
filing issues but once that was done he doesn't get the choice he doesn't
and that's you know part of the the other part of it is like you know ct was like oh making fun of
him because he's like telegraphing his moves but i think what he knew is like i'm telegraphing my
moves anyway because if anyone's paying attention they know that how they know exactly how much
capital i have and they know exactly when i'm going to have to deploy it. So I might as well tweet about it, because it's already a known
thing. And when sailor ATMs, so when he issues stock and sells it to raise capital, he cannot
sit on that. He has to deploy it immediately. He can't like, oh, let's wait for a dip that he has to deploy it immediately he can't like oh let's wait for a dip right he has
to deploy it immediately so it just it's just a completely different you know mindset and that's
why that's why you see prices go up like this because these guys absolutely do not care about
the current price at all yeah i mean to be fair to sailor he said i will always buy the top i will continue to
forever buy the top so yeah and you know a lot of times because what he does is he he announces that
last week's purchases on monday and people would would you know would chart that and say like hey
your average price ended up being the top like why are you such an idiot couldn't you have bought it before after but the reality of course is that it was the top because he bought
he couldn't he couldn't not create the top there's there's no way to do that so and he doesn't care
he's i'm sure he's in his head he's like i'll just raise another 10 billion and just keep buying and
yeah it's not a trade it's not a trade you know the the the thing that these guys are trying to convince the market
of is that they're going to continue to accumulate and they have access to capital they're not trying
to convince anyone that they're good traders yeah and i make every Monday, every time they announce any buys, I make a post updating the number of how much of the BTC supply they have.
And it's currently standing at 2.995% of the BTC supply.
Does it worry you at all in any way or you really don't care as long as they pump the price and like, you know, make our life a little bit easier?
What is the worry?
I don't know.
Just him sitting on a huge, huge stack
that just keeps rising.
If anything,
if you think it's going to keep rising,
then you should be buying.
What is the concern?
Oh, that's a good question i guess it's the only thing that worries people is like people you know people start thinking oh the next bear market is going to be rough but you know the
next bar market is not is not well in the previous market that so that's that's true, yes. Also, in the previous bear market, he didn't sell.
Yeah, true.
He didn't sell his stock.
All of the scary things that everyone was threatening everyone about happened.
The Bitcoin price went below his average price, which, by the way, is guaranteed to happen.
Because if you keep buying the top, obviously, at some point, you're going to keep bringing the average up and at some point it's going to be under the averages there's no doubt about that but people are for some reason very afraid of that so that happened
already you know is the price the investment went way below his average price he was uh underwater
for billions of dollars um and uh the stock price was below the value of the company's holdings
right so the market capital of the entire company was lower than its treasury which people say
such an event would would trigger um you know some death spiral well it didn't
um so all those bad things happen already and And he stood firm, refused to sell any Bitcoin
and weathered the storm.
And now he's considered one of the most successful people
on Wall Street.
And I would imagine that this, yeah,
this probably will happen again, you know?
But I don't think that, like, you know,
he's gonna end up in another big, you know,
unrealized loss of billions of dollars.
And probably this time, tens of billions will happen at some point.
And, but, but like, that doesn't mean that anything,
any death spiral should happen.
If anything, the strategy, microstrategy kept buying at the time.
They were the ones who were buying Bitcoin while everyone else was blowing up.
Right? Like, you know,
FTX was blowing up, TOR was
blowing up, everybody was for selling their
Bitcoin. The only one buying
at all was Michael's strategy.
That's the power of leverage.
Yeah. So I think what
we would probably see when a bear
market happens,
I think what we would probably see when a bear market happens, I think it's fair to say that it's likely at this time the type of entities that will blow up are going to be these kind of treasury companies.
But I just don't think Michael Stardust is going to be one of them.
Yeah, it feels like if anything, Michael Stardust will be, if even the last one. It seems like even he started it all and I feel like everyone that's coming now
is way more irresponsible
and doesn't give a fuck at all.
Yeah, the
MicroStrategy's
treasury and balance sheet
is just very healthy right now.
And it starts looking bad.
It's not super bad, but it starts looking concerning if Bitcoin drops like 80% or something,
which I don't know if that's likely to happen again.
But even if it does, yeah, it will be a rough time, especially for MicroStrategy equity
holders.
But I don't think anyone will be able to force him to sell the Bitcoin you sell.
So yeah, you know, like I could imagine things like
some of the new ones that are way over leveraged
end up blowing up and maybe MicroStrategy buys some of them
for like cents on the dollar
and ends up having more Bitcoin for cheap like I can
imagine things like that but and yeah and yeah some of them might just some of them just might
put the Bitcoin into the market because what's going to happen for some of these smaller companies
is their shareholders are just going to say look the, you failed, right? Like the stock price is down like 99% and you're sitting on this Bitcoin
so I could at least like liquidate the Bitcoin and buy the stock back or whatever.
And some of them are probably going to do it because they're not like deranged like Sailor
that refuse to sell CLBTC.
So some of them will probably do it.
And yeah, that will have impact on the market.
But I think the big ones, specifically MicroStrategy, I don't think they're going to do that.
They would if they're absolutely forced to, but it's going to be very hard to force them to.
I think it's much harder than people think.
The seller will go on the run with the wallet like there's no way.
The seller will go on the run with the wallet.
There's no way.
I wanted to ask you about this whole transition.
You mentioned the ETFs and we are talking about the treasury companies right now.
You know, being an OG that's been around for 12 years,
how do you feel about the whole world of crypto
slowly combining with the TradFi world,
you know, from the ETFs to treasury companies and stuff like that.
Do you feel that it goes a little bit against
the whole original idea of crypto
or because crypto still manages its function,
it doesn't really, you don't care about it?
I think, years ago when I was talking about this
with my kind of early crypto friends,
I think people had two bullish views of the future.
One was, you know, Bitcoin becomes the world currency.
Nobody uses local currencies anymore.
Everyone has a Bitcoin wallet.
They go to the grocery store, they pay with Lightning Network or some bullshit.
They buy their groceries with Bitcoin.
The dollar is dead.
The euro is dead.
Everything is dead.
No one wants to use the US currency anymore.
Okay.
That was one review in the future.
I always had a hard time connecting to that one.
It sounded a little bit like,
I don't know,
like why would that even happen?
The other vision was Wall Street will buy our bags pretty simply it's a good asset
it's not you know just like gold is an asset that that you know institutions want there's
no reason why they wouldn't want bitcoin and crypto even more. Like, why not? And so, you know, that playing out is a good thing.
And I think it played out faster than we expected,
which is also bullish.
I mean, but I think the important thing about Bitcoin especially
is that you have the option, and you will always have the option, option if you want to hold it in self-custody.
And if you want, you can do this in complete privacy.
And you have the option of doing this stuff if you want to.
But obviously not everyone is going to want to.
Obviously a lot of entities are just going to want to have exposure to the upside and that's fine.
I don't see any problem with that.
I think we should have
a way for anyone who wants to
share the upside to be able to
do that if they want to.
If some people want to have this private
dark interim money,
great. Bitcoin can still do
that even if
sailors' holdings increased to 10% one day,
which I don't think they would, but like, even if they did,
you can still use Bitcoin however you want.
That's like the great thing about it.
Yeah, like it still doesn't function.
It can still have your wallet.
You can still send money to whoever you want.
No one can stop you, so, yeah.
No, there would be, you know, I can can see and i think one of the things that kind
of people would argue about in old og forums about bitcoin is is you know one day the government
would blacklist some bitcoins and would not let you deposit it to exchanges and and get the fiat
out and then there would be like parallel systems of like clean government approved Bitcoin
and dark non-approved Bitcoin.
And that's a problem.
And there'll be price dislocation.
There are a lot of like these theories.
And you could argue maybe something not as extreme, but similar to that would happen
when, you know, if you can take your Bitcoin and deposit it to an ETF and get ETF shares and then leverage that in the traditional finance system.
But for that, they want to see where the Bitcoin came from.
They want you to prove that it's not EOS set in some way.
Then a lot of Bitcoin will be left out of that system.
And maybe eventually there'll just be like two two different pools of bitcoin
i think that's the kind of things that like the the the hyper maxi bitcoin devs from from 10 years
ago are concerning themselves with but i i think i kind of doubt it and even if it does happen like
you know that's life but i i kind of doubt it yeah we'll see we'll see where it goes
um but yeah i mean i i also i think the the combination of i don't think that you know a
world where bitcoin replaces the the financial system is is likely to happen i just think that
you know governments are way too you know power hungry to you know have their own currencies that they can manipulate.
So I think we are heading towards the way of
Tratify just buying our bags
that we promised to sell them,
but we're not selling.
But I wanted to go back to the bear market
that we've had earlier today
and discuss that.
How do you over the last 12 years, you know,
you've seen ups, downs, Bitcoin from three figures to six and hopefully stays at six. But how do you
manage the psychological aspect of the market? You know, just dealing with the stress of maintaining,
dealing with the stress, maintaining your discipline during volatile times, during bear markets, price swings, and just generally challenging periods where nothing happens, price declines.
How do you handle that?
It's hard.
I think it's harder than people think.
harder than people think
and honestly
you know I'm seeing a lot of times
kind of OGs basically
lying
saying stuff like
oh you know all you have to do is hold
you know and like
why are you panicking
but you know in private conversations
one BTC is one BTC
but in private conversations
I don't know a
single like every one of the famous ogs is panicking when those things happen like and
it's not it's not you know it shouldn't come as a surprise like that's why prices are down because
everyone is panicking there's no you're not in zen you're not in the state of zen when that happens
and anyone who says that they are maybe not anyone but
i think most people claim that they are a lie um and i just i just know that from look i've
i got to you know hang out with friends who i know that are you know big holders and it ended
up you know we we went on a whatever we go on a vacation together, right? And it ends up happening during some market crash.
And I can visibly see that they're miserable.
They're losing their minds.
And I think it's very common.
And I don't know that there's much to do about that
other than you need to build conviction in what you're holding.
Because what you need to understand is you are
going to panic there's no way that you're not going to panic but what you could do is you could
use the time that you have until the next panic to build real conviction and the things that you
want to have conviction in so if i'm telling you now you know okay you know whatever okay, you know, whatever. Bet point is guaranteed to go below 70K eventually.
It'll go to 500K first and then it'll go to 70K.
And after it goes to 70K, it's going to go to 2 million.
All right.
Now, assuming you can't trade that,
the next best thing you can do is to convince yourself
to build enough conviction so that when the panic happens, you will recognize that you're panicking and you will remember that the plan is beyond this current moment.
But you are going to panic.
There's no way that you're not going to panic.
So the question is of course no of course
some people will want to actively trade that it would be like okay i'm i'm gonna be ready with
dry powder and buy when that happens that's fine if you think you can pull that off but just just
to be clear a lot of people mess that up and you know you end up not buying when everyone's panicking
because again you panic too um more likely you will panic and you will sell the
bottom than you buying the bottom and yeah and i think people don't don't um don't uh appreciate
how how hard it is to buy the the bottom like it's it's very hard um because you never obviously
you never think it's the bottom where it's the bottom obviously that's why it's it's very hard um because you never obviously you never think it's the bottom where
it's the bottom obviously that's why it's that's why the bottom happens because everyone is
convinced that it's going lower otherwise it wouldn't happen right yeah and and and everyone
always thinks that they're going to be smarter than that but like you can't this is why the price is low because everyone is convinced usually for good reasons
that it's over right so so instead you you know if you're if your plan is i'm going to be smarter
than everyone else at the bottom like fine i mean that's i don't know if that's a good plan
but go ahead try it but i think it's probably better to spend the
time when things are fine to build the conviction so that when the hard times come, you have a plan.
And, you know, okay, if you have a portfolio that is 70% new coins,
you know, you should probably plan ahead what happens
if you were surprised by a big dramatic market event.
And you might, you know, you might have to say goodbye
to some of your shit, but keep some of your
more high value items that you have more conviction in
and maybe even rotate.
But, you know, you need to have a plan
is, I guess, my point.
And for that, you need to like
not just think about the green candles
that are definitely coming tomorrow,
but also think about
like what happens if it goes wrong
and what is your plan to survive that.
Yeah.
I feel like people are very
often way too focused on you know looking at the upside and never consider any downside like i'll
often ask a friend or you know people around me that are taking some leveraged position i have a
couple of friends in real life that for some reason love gambling on futures without you know
knowing how to trade um and i was asking like dude
what are you gonna do if you wake up tomorrow morning and btc is down like 20 like what are
you gonna survive that what are you gonna do what the moment you see that and like no one knows no
never they never have an answer and maybe it's it sounds optimistic but that's literally the first
thing i think about when i'm taking a position especially if it's a leveraged one like what happens if it shits the bed um and yeah i mean i think you have to be
in crypto you have to be um like you have to be a cautious optimistic person and like
a little bit you know um pessimistic as well um to survive yeah yeah yeah i i think people just
underestimate how how deep a panic can be until you've experienced it and honestly even after
you experienced it once you still like convince yourself that this was like some unique event that would never happen again.
I think one of the, I think anyone who, who survived the last bear market, that one was brutal.
Right.
I mean, that, that one was absolutely, I think a lot of people were convinced that it's, it's really, really over.
You know, every week someone else was collapsing.
Yeah.
And, and,
and,
and,
and some of,
you know,
some of my smartest friends,
smartest traders I know,
were really considering that it's like,
it's completely fucking over.
Like,
you know,
like there's no chance anyone would ever trust crypto again,
after all of these implosions and it's just a huge
scam and nobody would want to be a part of that and now you know we're the biggest adoption phase
of crypto ever right and it's only two years apart from from this huge collapse um so it's and and and you know I I remember myself like I had many doubts
right like I had a ton of doubts but I remember myself trying to convince people that this is
probably not the right time to give up that was hard because I was I was pretty like I was down
too I mean I was pretty shocked yeah it's like it's like what you said like it's very hard to think it's the bottom
at the bottom like we i remember it's so vividly ftx collapsed btc dropped to like 16k binance said
there is no money everything's gone and i was like dude it's fucked you know and then the
public face of crypto has just crumbled. And then there were multiple months of limbo where there would be days where basically every group chat of the entire industry would light up with some rumor that someone posted that actually maybe Binance is insolvent or something.
And that would happen almost every week that someone posts some bullshit on Twitter and
some, oh, some on-chain transaction that proves that Binance is under collateralized.
And within seconds, every single group chat would be, you know, yelling about this.
Like bad news spread so quickly.
And I think that was how sailors any moment collapse because he's underwater.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that I think that was the best sign.
I remember talking about this to people because look, I was scared.
Everyone was scared, but still,
I think the best sign to the fact that it was at bottom was just how quickly
bad news spread. It was unbelievable.
It was, it was nanoseconds before everybody was talking about some,
some bullshit, right? Like some some some made-up bullshit but but
but but bad news spread so quickly and it was it became pretty obvious that just everyone is short
you know it's like just everybody but um but but um but at the time it's just really really
difficult to snap out of it really difficult so 100 it's it never looks like the bottom it was a long it like time wise it
wasn't a short bottom like you had a good time to position if you wanted to it's not like you know
sometimes you've got these like monstrous wicks and you have to like be there at the exact right
moment but this was like what two months or something yeah this was everyone had a good
time to position if they wanted to.
We had like two months to position yourself at the Pico bottom.
Not like just a bottom, but like the Pico bottom, which is crazy.
I was wondering, I wanted to ask you, do you ever touch your BTC stack?
Like what's your position with like taking profit?
Do you ever do sometimes sell dca out or
something like that and like when you think the bull is over or something like that like previous
bull markets did you sell anything i used to um not not not necessarily uh not necessarily really
trying to time the top i was just like okay you know we're up a lot i'm not going to time the top
but like i should take some off the table to feel this is real and to not be upset later
that i didn't so i'm not i'm not good at timing those things at all actually but uh
but just to you know just to like and and you know i've learned a lot of hard lessons over the years
with like you know how to deal with tax debt and stuff and not to not not to
create um liabilities that that that are becoming a problem later when the market is down so like
you know just basic stuff like like that i think though this time
well one i'm not interested i'm just not interested in taking money out right now I just I think I
don't care as much because if if this was the top thing like you know whatever um I'm not gonna lose
sleep over that but also um I really don't think it's the top I I'm I you know maybe maybe we'll
go back to this conversation later and make fun of this prediction. But I agree. I really don't think so either.
Like, I don't know if we, you know, there's a lot of talks like,
oh, the million is a minimum.
Five million is the minimum for this cycle.
I don't know how high we go, but time-wise, I feel like,
like with just everything happening around,
doesn't feel like this as well.
But yeah, we'll see.
Hopefully we keep on going.
I wanted to ask you about Taproot Wizards.
You're one of the co-founders of Taproot Wizards.
First of all, can you tell us a little bit about what they are
and how the idea came to be and just what's the idea behind it?
Yeah, so we call our company Top of Wizards too,
but for the kind of public-facing thing that everyone sees
is the Orinals collection.
And the way that came about is actually before Orinals started,
actually around that time where in 2022, the market was just absolutely miserable.
We thought that an NFT collection for Bitcoiners that is specifically targeted at creating a
community of Bitcoin people is actually going to be a really interesting idea and interesting thing to try.
And we actually thought that the bear market is probably a good time to do that.
So we started looking at it kind of during the same time of the 2022 collapse.
And the reason for that was we just thought that Bitcoin in crypto crypto native circles bitcoin has a branding problem and
i think today doesn't have as much of a branding problem as it did but back then um everyone in
crypto hated bitcoin basically it was like it was the hated asset it wasn't going up much it was uh
everyone was making fun of it being like a pit rock um you you know if had its nft run uh solana had like its early defy run for the
first time uh people were like oh all these coins i can do things with them and bitcoin is just
useless and it doesn't it's old and it's ancient it doesn't have any tech it doesn't you know
it was it was very unpopular and and there were the only people that you would see that are kind of talking about bitcoin in a positive way were the kind of bitcoin maxis of the time
and and they were very hated too by most of the crypto community right there were they were like
very harsh towards uh the rest of the crypto community and they were just weird you know
they were talking about eating steak all the time
and not really making a whole lot of sense.
So I was just thinking, man, it sucked
because I know that there's a lot of people in crypto
that are more kind of on the OG side
that do have a significant position in Bitcoin,
but they're almost ashamed to talk about it at the time.
And it's funny because today it's the complete opposite, right?
But at the time, even people who would consider themselves Ethereum people or Solana people
or whatever and would have some position in Bitcoin, they would be ashamed to talk about
it because it had such a bad vibe in the kind of crypto native circles.
So we thought that it would be cool to try to do a little bit of a rebrand at
least in a niche you know obviously when bitcoin is very big we're not going to rebrand the entire
thing but like at least in a niche of of some community of our own and give it like kind of a
little more optimistic and and and and and community kind of vibe and that was why we wanted to look into it and we
found this meme of of bitcoin wizards that that existed in 2013. the the fun part about it is it
was used back in 2013 it was also used to rebrand bitcoin because it was the forum banner or
something like that right it was an ad so yeah it was an ad from the Bitcoin subreddit.
So the Bitcoin subreddit in 2013 was back then relatively small.
It later became the main place that everyone would talk about Bitcoin before CT.
But at the time, it was small.
And most people of course didn't know in 2013 that Bitcoin existed.
But the few people who didn't know about it just assumed that it's something that criminals use, basically, to either pay for drugs or to evade taxes or I don't know what.
That was just the reputation that Bitcoin had at the time.
that was just the reputation that bitcoin had at the time and and i think the the bitcoin
subreddit people mostly just talked about you know tech stuff and they wanted to kind of rebrand it
and make it cool and so the people don't think that everyone on the on the reddit on the subreddit
are criminals so they made a contest to come up with an ad that is supposed to be kind of wholesome.
And this guy with the pseudonym Mavensbot showed up and he posted this ad.
The ad looks absolutely ridiculous.
It looks like it's made in Microsoft Paint.
It actually was made in Photoshop.
But it looks like it's like a fucking drawing by a three-year-old.
And it has this like clumsy
wizard and it has like this ugly looking button that says join us and it says r you know slash
r bitcoin in in a in in in like a five-year-old font yeah and magic internet money and magic
internet money and that submission to the contest got basically all of the votes, right?
They loved it.
They gave him,
I don't remember what amount of Bitcoin they gave him,
but it had to be like multiple Bitcoins
because at the time it was worth nothing.
So he must have made millions of dollars
in today's prices.
I don't know if he kept it, but they gave him this prize.
They published the ad and it ended up becoming the best performing ad on Reddit at the time.
It beat every other ad that was ever on Reddit by that time.
A lot of people that you would talk to today that got into Bitcoin in 2013 will tell you that they got into Bitcoin through that app.
It was that successful.
There was like a lot of millionaires walking around us that became millionaires because of that meme.
So it was very successful to kind of rebrand the public image of Bitcoin, at least within Reddit.
brand public image of Bitcoin, at least within Reddit.
And that's kind of why we picked that meme.
We were thinking, hey, maybe we can kind of change what people think about Bitcoin within
kind of crypto, CT stuff.
And I think at the time that we did it, I think it actually was.
So, well, that was 2022, right?
We actually didn't launch it, though.
We made some of the art and we worked in some of the story,
but it didn't make sense to us because you couldn't,
the NFTs would have to be on Ethereum.
And we're like, it's an NFT collection for Bitcoiners on Ethereum.
That's not going to work.
So we kind of temporarily put that aside
and waited for whatever, for a miracle to happen and then uh
casey rhodomor invented ordinals uh about i don't know six eight months later which are which is a
protocol for nfc zone on bitcoin and we were like wait actually this is like a great fit and we had
the whole thing ready so we just got it out of the drawer and said like, okay, let's do this now.
Like this actually makes sense.
And I think that at the time
and maybe partially because it was the depths
of the bear market,
I think it actually did help attract
a bunch of people to Bitcoin.
I think a lot of,
whether it's people who ended up
owning the type of Wizards or not, I think just even the kind of campaign around it did open.
And the fact that it drove a lot of people into Ordinals, I think that did end up getting a lot of kind of the newer CT crowd to take a look at Bitcoin at the time.
So pretty happy about that.
Yeah, that's really dope.
Good timing with the launch of Ardenals.
I remember back then, I didn't see the Taproot Wizards themselves.
I've just started seeing all over the timeline,
people doing the clips with the wizard costumes and stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I was like, what the fuck is going on?
So yeah, that was a really good uh promo as well um i was wondering about like
you mentioned btc maxis and like the launch of the wizards um were there any clashes between you
between you guys during or after the launch
and BTC maxis that maybe didn't want to have
NFTs on Bitcoin and stuff like that?
And what is your overall view about being a maxi in this space?
Do you think it's a bad thing, even if it's towards BTC?
Or do you think there's any positives to it or whatever?
So you're asking about the way that Bitcoin Maxis responded to this whole wizard thing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Look, at the time, they were absolutely furious.
I mean, I guess not all of them, but there were a lot of loud ones that were absolutely
furious about it.
There's even a clip that we
like throwing around about one of
the more famous
Bitcoin Maxi podcasters
and went on an absolute
you know
it was recorded on a thing
it was just going absolutely crazy
about how stupid we are and we're destroying
Bitcoin.
So that was funny.
To be perfectly honest, and I don't think this is going to surprise anyone, you know, we were trying to trigger them on purpose.
I don't think this is going to come as a shock to anybody to hear that.
but um we just we just knew you know based on our experience with some of these guys that they're
likely to be really mad about it and become like really possessive that they'll be like oh the
chain is ours how dare you put jpegs on our chain we did not we're not approved that and we knew
that this was going to look so stupid that it'll help us promote the thing so
we kind of i mean it was kind of the perfect you know the just the perfect storm everything just
fell into place and we you know since we had years of experience rolling these guys we knew exactly
how they were going to react so so yeah i would be absolutely lying if i if i said that i was upset
that they were upset i was very it's about it. It was kind of the point.
But I think
everyone learned an important lesson.
I think actually
one of the
interesting lessons was that actually nothing bad
really happened other than
the annoying fact that Woody and Eric made some money
and of course that's very annoying to Bitcoin Maxis but other than that annoying fact
nothing bad happened to the Bitcoin network of course uh we we actually didn't kill it you know
we didn't break it um and the JPEGs are just you know sitting there and they're not bothering anyone
um so I think people I think some people learned that Bitcoin is maybe more resilient than they thought.
And that's a good lesson, I think, for everyone.
And also, yeah, I also think that some people learned that you don't need to be so uptight about stuff
and doesn't make you look good.
And all in all, we can't take credit for all of it but i think today um it's
pretty obvious that the old guard of kind of 2022 2023 bitcoin maxis is kind of not relevant anymore
at all um so i i wouldn't say that this is all because of us it's probably we probably only had
a small contribution to that but it's mostly because of institutions of course and the the
entire narrative and story around bitcoin changed um but i think i think it's been a good development
and i think those who are left look there's actually i know people who i know people who
sold their bitcoin because of this they're like oh the bitcoin chain is full of jpegs this means
that bitcoin is going to die i'm i out. You forced them to sell the bottom.
Yeah.
So I know some people who did that.
But, you know, other than people who did that,
I think that those who remain are,
I think, you know,
I think they're pretty happy right now.
You know, like Bitcoin is up.
I think everyone is mostly happy.
But you will still find some small groups
of people who are upset um there there's still uh
there's this like it's this ridiculous debate that's still going on about should we filter
out the spam or not whenever i see that like guys are you like why are you fighting this
2023 war right now clearly like much bigger things are happening and this is like obviously
no one's going to pay attention to the stupid argument because i mean you know that wall street
is buying all the bitcoin right like you if you notice like what are you talking about who cares
about the jpegs right now um so so yeah there's there's these small groups but i think most people
are just happy and uh And so that's good.
I just remember that when you guys launched somewhere around that time, I think,
I just started seeing you replying to people and just triggering them.
And like this whole thing going on where people were just like saying,
this is wrong.
Take your NFTs to Ethereum.
There shouldn't be anything on BTCtc uh which yeah like i said
it's just funny um so talking about it uh you had the famous uh death to ethereum party back in 2021
which i remember listening to by the way i've had many of those by now yeah so so we had one i think
it was last this year or last year i remember. Yeah, there was one this year.
Yeah, so I joined it.
I spoke in it for a little while as well.
But yeah, it was really funny because after, for those who don't know,
Udi had a space called Death to Ethereum Party.
And back then it was a clubhouse.
Oh, right.
Was it in Clubhouse?
Yeah, it was a clubhouse oh right was it in clubhouse yeah yeah yeah so anyways you had this thing and and literally like the next day or two
ETH went up like 20% in a single day and DeFi summer just started right yep
pretty much I think look you know it's one of those times where so when i post something
and again this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone but i guess it does sometimes come to
to people as a surprise whenever i post anything um i think about the book of the thing that I post. Some people would call it,
what's the word I'm looking for?
Bait.
Bait is one way to call it.
I prefer the word hook.
But yeah, you need something
that would grab people's attention.
And usually I just shitpost
and I shitpost something that I know people are attention. And usually I just shitpost and I shitpost something
that I know people are going to be triggered about.
And then I would have something else to say.
So this was one of the times
when the baits backfired.
The point of the space,
from my perspective,
and people who actually tuned in,
I think would know that.
But the point of the space
for me was to get people in that are both on the bitcoin maxi side and the ether maxi side
and i was going to be more on the east side that was the plan that was kind of what i did i wasn't
like going on there and like saying hey ethereum is dead it's over i was actually like making fun
of the bitcoin maxis but the title was supposed to be bait obviously yeah
because that's what attracted both groups into the room but nobody knows what was said in the
in the clubhouse because the image of the of the clubhouse became you know about 10 20 000 times
more famous than the what was actually said in there so for everyone's position this was just
a room of bitcoin maxis celebrating that Ethereum is dead
at the absolute bottom,
but it wasn't actually what was going on.
So this is one of the times
when my baits end up baiting me.
And that happened a few times
in other occasions too.
But if I helped saving Ethereum
by being the bottom signal,
then so be it.
Yeah.
I mean, ETH probably would have traded
at like a hundred bucks by now
if you would have done that.
And then I tried to do it again
multiple times, right?
I tried to do other spaces titled
Death of ETH Party.
Whenever ETH crossed some threshold
of despair, and i was trying
to do it to like you know be the bottom signal again but that's but but i never succeeded to
manifest the bottom again it just kept going down every time i did no one is strong enough to do
that yeah um yeah but it's funny because like um your bait works. Like we had commentator saying in the comments that you're the master baiter.
And anyways, it's your baits are like they're working.
And like you almost got...
It's not a bait, it's a hook.
Yeah, the hook, sorry.
Almost got you this image of like this bitcoin bitcoin maxi
especially during like the death to ethereum party and stuff like that um and then i remember and
this to a certain point i also thought like yeah woody's like crazy bitcoin maxi or something like
that and then i uh i saw you like saying you're not and like cursing at people calling you a Bitcoin Maxi I was a big
Bitcoin Maxi for many years
but I think
at that time I was kind of on my
ramp
off stage
off of Bitcoin maximalism
but until
then I was an insufferable Bitcoin Maxi
for many many years before that
so that's why the bait worked, right?
But that was kind of the...
But again, it ended up working on myself more than anyone else.
So there you go.
Yeah, well, there you go.
Having fun.
Well, I have two questions left and we're going to wrap things up.
So I want to remind our listeners, if you have any questions, you can click on the bottom right corner the chat box icon and leave them there and
we'll get to them in a couple of minutes um one of the the first thing i want to ask you is what
advice would you give your younger self or someone listening to this right now who's you know just
entering like to the crypto space who was it's his first cycle or
something like that yeah just don't sell your bitcoin don't ever say whatever reason you think
you have to sell some bitcoin it's a bad reason don't do it there you go starting to the point
and um the last question i have for you and is what do you believe making it is and do you feel like you've made it man i don't know i don't know about that i'm i mean i'm happy but also uh
um yeah look there's a lot of things we want to achieve so i don't know i think
i think it's good if you always have like kind of bigger aspirations i think but i don't know i think maybe some people
don't want that actually and um that's probably fine too i don't know i think i i i kind of i
kind of got to talk to a lot of people i think i think different people have very different
opinions on that i think you know some some people seem to want to just retire and fuck off.
And then some people do it, actually.
And I think maybe I had a period like that, a little bit like that, where I kind of was like, you know, actually, fuck everything.
I'm just going to travel.
I'm just going to do whatever I want.
And I think I did that for almost two years.
And I ended up hating it.
So, I don't know like
but but also some people um i think really just want to kind of relax with their families and and
just you know grow old with them and that's it that's fine but i think also a lot of people in
crypto that i know they basically feel like they can't leave they're
like either because it's an addiction or uh there's some of the thrill or uh or there's just
other things that they want to achieve um so i think it really depends on the person
i guess is my yeah top up answer yeah it does and that's why i ask this is one of the questions i'm
asking all of our guests
because it is interesting to see what uh you know every person is saying i think i kind of try
i think i kind of try like just just kind of fucking off and uh and just like have a
have some sort of a no obligation life or for a year or two, and I didn't enjoy it.
But I think maybe other people,
not maybe, I know that other people do.
So, you know.
Yeah.
I feel like most of the people who say that they,
you know, want to fuck up for good
and just retire and stuff like that,
probably, I think those change.
Because I feel like the just human nature
is just aspire for more like you want to
have a certain amount you reach it like if it's money you know you reach it you have some fun you
rest and then you're like okay i want to and i don't even know if it's just about a look money
is part of it of course but i don't even know if it's just that it's it's also um um you know i like okay why why did we go and like decide to make a whole campaign with shower
videos and troll like bitcoin maxes and whatever like we were trying to make a point and there was
something that we thought uh that we could improve in the world uh maybe a small part of the world
but still and we wanted to do it now so like i and i think for me i think
it's just hard for me to like say no i don't want to you know i don't want to be involved in this at
all anymore so yeah yeah i i say like i know what you mean because i i know i'm gonna be here for
good like just even just shit posting and having fun on CT until I,
I just can't do it no more or something like that.
Regardless of the money and the prices, I just, this is just fun for me.
I enjoy it. So, so yeah.
Well, that's, that's pretty much it for me. Is there a,
let's see if there's any questions.
It doesn't seem like it besides.
Yeah, doesn't seem like it.
We have a couple of shout outs and that's pretty much it.
Well, yeah, that's pretty much it for me.
Thank you so much for coming again.
I really appreciate it.
This was really, really fun.
And is there anything else you want to add?
Is there anything you want to say or mention? don't don't have zero percent bitcoin here before please
you should panic if you have zero percent bitcoin don't do that yeah that's it yeah i think that's
that's super important we we mentioned this in the beginning uh those who joined in the middle
there will be a recording so you can listen back to it
but yeah I fully agree like I never I never have less than you know I look at BTC and ETH
are the same the same you know thing yeah just have majors
and at least 5050 BTC or ETH I think
Woody do you have any ETH any ether no comments on that question
there you go um all right huge thank you for coming man really really appreciate it again
for all of our listeners thank you guys for coming you make this happen um And if you don't follow Udi, go follow him.
You'll be able to see his hooks, which are fantastic.
You'll see him making Bitcoin Maxis really mad.
And that's not something else.
No, I'm done with that.
I'm done with that stage.
All right.
There you go.
Now that ETH is pumping, maybe soon we'll need a death to BTC party to
kind of like
just pump things up after today's
bear market
so yeah again Uri huge thank you for coming man
really really appreciate it
and yeah that's
pretty much it man no more questions
from me to our listeners
huge thank you guys for coming and
just to mention there will
be notes available on monday as usual and there will be a recording available once this episode
ends which you can find it on the kuma page it will be available in a couple of minutes
and again a huge thank you to kuma now for hosting these spaces now we're live with up to 50x leverage
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And make sure to follow Kuma and see what the team will be posting.
We will be dropping daily announcements really, really soon.
And yeah, if you want to know what's more to come,
join the
discord of kuma again huge thank you to kuma for making this happen and uh yeah hosting these spaces
uh again if you haven't tried kuma you can do that through my link in my bio that will give
you 25 but don't forget to tell them about kuma yeah and uh there's kuma with up to 50x leverage
Yeah, and there's Kumo with up to 50x leverage.
And yeah, and make sure to check out Taproot Wizard.
I actually, I don't even know how you can, I've never done anything with originals.
I have no idea how you can even get those things and whatnot.
But yeah, check out Taproot Wizard.
And Udi's profile.
Yeah, that's pretty much it guys
thank you for coming bye bye
