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Stablecoin Rules Ahead: Effects on DeFi, Crypto & Web3
Recorded: March 27, 2025 Duration: 2:38:36Space Recording
Short Summary
In a dynamic discussion at the BitAngels Xspace, industry leaders highlighted the explosive growth of stablecoins, with an 800% increase in usage over the past year. The launch of the USD1 stablecoin by World Liberty was a key focus, alongside insights into innovative models that allow users to earn yield and the importance of partnerships in driving the crypto ecosystem forward.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly BitAngels Xspace, where we talk about all
things blockchain, have different special speakers on each week at 1 p.m. on Thursdays,
Special speakers on each week at 1 p.m. on Thursdays, that's Pacific time.
that's Pacific time.
Today we're talking about stablecoin regulation, and it's going to be a really busy, exciting
week because, actually exciting day, because today we have two meetups.
The first one is the ICP Hub's North American Alliance in New York that's happening tonight at 6 p.m. and
Dwayne Jacobson Monica profit bit angels quantum leap slabs and the ICP hubs
network are all joining up and they're gonna have some amazing panel speakers
and get to meet some amazing folks over there at Station 3 in New York.
And for Vegas, we're having our very first Vegas crypto meetup tonight,
and that's going to be with Elise Sam, Warren Whitlock, and Daryl DiPietro.
And it's happening at Sierra Gold at 6 to 9 p.m.
It's pretty casual, so if you want to come and make some friends
and just eat some nice
food with people who are excited about blockchain that's your place to be and we're going to get
started now so hang tight and we'll get everybody set up.
Hi, Warren, our wonderful co-host, Warren.
Boy, this is the easiest getting in I've had in some time.
Hopefully that bodes well for what our attendance is going to be today.
I see we already got people coming in.
That's fantastic.
And yeah, we're looking forward to getting together
with some people tonight in Vegas,
you said Sierra Gold, it's a great location
and we hope to be able to expand our reach there
along with other locations here in Vegas.
Certainly, there's always things going on here.
But what a topic you've chosen for today.
I'm going to be asking whoever is an expert to explain stable coins and why I would want to leave any money in stable coins but but
believe it's more of the transaction volume that that we're looking for but I don't know I'm coming
to learn today and let's see who do we have on is the speaker anthem is is here yeah and we just had, let's see, I thought I saw Adele here.
Yeah.
Hi, Adele.
Hey, hey, hey.
I'm back from Cisco.
There he is.
So, Adele, are you going to explain stable coins to me?
How much of my portfolio do I deepen stable coins?
Oh, absolutely.
So, there are, first of all, stable coins.
There are three known types.
One are tokens that are backed 100% dollar for dollars, treasury bonds, corporate debts like Tether, and our newly
created US1, which was issued by Liberty, the company associated with the president.
And then there are algorithmically stable tokens.
So those are stable via a certain algorithm.
The job of the algorithm is to keep the tokens themselves
tagged to an underlying value, like a dollar, euro or something else.
Most famous is DAI, which has been in production for a whole while.
So now with that out of the way, why would you use stable tokens to begin with?
Well, you could trade Bitcoin to Ethereum, to Solana, and vice versa, but then we humans are used
to value them in some sort of a dollar-denominated price.
So it made sense to have an intermediate, because you can't get real dollars into the blockchain, hence the inception of stable
tokens that you could go from your Bitcoin into a stable, then from a stable to Ethereum
and Viaverse.
And why it would be beneficial to have some in your portfolio?
Well, a couple of reasons one when the market is uh is
uh reaching the peak so like michael turpin says in his book that you know the cycle so when you
get to the cycle tops you could huddle uh but uh if you did not have an option before stable tokens
to go into something that does not get affected by
crypto so the best case scenario for you is either huddling bitcoin or moving to another
another value that is equivalently not stable like that moves up and down but since we have stable tokens, you can follow Terpen's advice and go out from your crypto assets into more stable ones and wait patiently for the bear market to buy back in.
So that's one big use case that you could use.
The other use case is if you have near-term payment, like, for example, I need to pay my company's resources, so payroll.
So I can get some of my crypto out into stable tokens, put them into something like Coinbase,
get 5% on them while I am waiting for payroll to come and then have quick access to them to process them.
So basically you can use it like a cash but it's on the blockchain.
Sum that up and I've never seen a reason why I'd want to take whatever cash I have and buy stable tokens.
If I was going to invest my cash, I'm going to want to invest in something with more of a return.
But if it's for money I already have in this system, man, I need to be able to move it around.
Moving it through the stable token seems great. I don't know what the volume is right now, but I believe there's a very big volume of stablecoin transactions going on.
Moving it through the stable token seems great.
And I think what we're here today to talk about is what that's going to do to the market. co-host, Rock. Rock Zacharias is with us, and I'm sure Rock has some thoughts
on the use of stablecoins.
Do you, Rock?
Of course.
But hello, everyone.
Good to see you all.
Pleasure to be here.
I was just listening in on the tail end
of what you said,
because I'm inviting a bunch of groups
and friends and communities and colleagues to come listen.
But, yeah, I mean, Mike.
Hey, let's stick with that for a moment.
Before we forget, everybody here, please tweet, retweet, like whatever you can to the tweets that are going on here.
Let the world know that you're on the call.
And that's how we build the audience
and build the community and founders found and find investors investors find great deals and the
whole of the whole of the blockchain community ecosystem um does better so i'm sorry. Back to you, Rock. Yeah, just generally.
So, I mean, I've got a lot of takes on stable coins.
I was a little bit hesitant or resistant to them back in the very early days of stable coins.
Like when we first started discussing these, I don't even know.
When was the first stable coins?
Probably like eight years ago or something?
Yeah, that sounds right.
Something like that probably but um remember a coin agenda here in las vegas in 2018 uh and catching a ride as we moved between a
hotel and michael turpin's house and and he explained it to me and i go like, okay, so I get like, like value exchanges, where in real estate,
you can change from one house to another, not pay any taxes. And I thought of it as something
like that. And something you don't need if you're going to haul. But and then it grew a whole lot
since then. And so I find now that I don't sell anything.
Well, I mostly just don't sell anything.
But if I do, holding it in a wallet as that,
rather than, say, the Coinbase option to store things in cash,
you store it in USDC there or tether or whatever you can get because then it becomes uh easier to make
that next purchase well it's yeah like i guess when i first heard about stable coins i thought
i guess as a bitcoiner i thought like why do we need stable coins well you know we got bitcoin
you know but yeah i mean obviously i was wrong on that. And I,
and I love when I'm wrong. I love to learn from my mistakes, but I guess, where do I go with this?
I think that stable coins are necessary in the short term. And, but then in the longer term,
we'll, we'll, a lot of that, the usage of stablecoins will shift to Bitcoin as we have Bitcoin L2s and
Lightning Network gets better and better just general ways to use Bitcoin and it gets more
stable in value, etc. But I think for the next 10, 20, 30 years, stablecoins might become the
largest transactional medium of exchange in the world. And I think the US is embracing it.
medium of exchange in the world. And I think the U.S. is embracing it.
Yeah, absolutely. And Tether isn't the most exchanges cryptocurrency for no reason.
I'm going to dial it back if that's OK. And sorry I was late. I've been having like
Wi-Fi problems. But the first. How are you doing, beautiful?
I am awesome. I miss you guys. I love you all very much.
And I want to. Well, for those of you that don't know,
I've actually worked in stable coins since 2014.
And that was actually when BitUSD was invented, was in 2014.
Also, RealCoin, which is now rebranded to Tether, launched in 2014 as well.
And I've always said, because I've written on stable coins, you know, since
2014. And I think that I've said in multiple interviews that it's an avenue to decentralization.
So we need stable coins for the onboarding and offboarding. But stable coins are really
absolutely fantastic. And not just because, you know, we need the onboarding, offboarding and but stable coins are are really absolutely fantastic and um and not just because
you know we need the onboarding offboarding and not just because we need a stable commodity
but for a lot of different reasons so i'm going to take this back to beginner stable coin education
if that's okay with everybody and we're going to talk about the the five different types of
stable coins because when we talk about stablecoins, a lot of people
just, they only think about, you know, Tether or, you know, like USD or, and fiat backed stablecoins.
But there's actually five different types. So the first one is that it's fiat backed
currencies. So you can have yen, you can have USD backed, whatever. And then the second type of stable coin is a
crypto backed stable coin. Why do you need that? I don't know, to be honest with you. They want to
put in a basket of currencies to reduce the volatility. But I mean, you can just you can do
that in your investment portfolio, in my opinion. The third type of stablecoin is an algorithmic stablecoin. Now,
this is a really awesome, fancy invention that was invented based off a bank, the algorithmic
banking system, the marketplace behind the bank. And so algorithmic stablecoins by design are not
supposed to be deflation. They're supposed to be deflationary. And we've seen Luna and a bunch
of other people like really screw that up. So we need to dial it back and kind of rejumpstart
algorithmic stable coins because I do believe that they are the future. The next type is a
hybrid stable coin. And a hybrid stable coin can be crypto back. It can be fiat back. It could be
algorithmic back. And it can have it's a mesh of different things. It can be fiat back. It could be algorithmic back.
And it can have, it's a mesh of different things.
And I forgot the last one, commodity back.
We used to only call them gold back stable coins because we were only backing stable coins with gold.
But now you see precious metals.
Now you see diamonds. Now you see stable coins that are trying to put real estate behind them, even though real estate is a semi-fungible asset. It doesn't necessarily work there, but they're trying to do those types of things. And I love if you hate stable coins, you absolutely have to love commodity-backed stable coins.
Now you see diamonds.
to love commodity-backed stablecoins. And the reason why is supply chain. And another reason
why is because it can reduce the ecological footprint on the planet.
Can we double-click what you mean by supply chain?
Yeah. So when, for instance, like wheat, you can be investing in wheat as a stablecoin.
And let's say that, you know, half of your investments,
you want to cash out and you want to eat that bread, you know?
And so what they're backing, the wheat can be put on the supply chain and stuff.
All the information behind where the wheat has come from and all that is inside you
know the stable coin the smart contract let's say the wheat was grown in kansas where i'm from there
we go and um you know and then they're gonna they're gonna track that in the smart contract
and everything where they they ship it same with gold and so because it's cut and every time that
they they ship it or do something with it um They upload that information and it's backed up.
So reducing the ecological footprint on the planet by using stable coins is, I think,
really important. And it's really big for the economy. We sell a lot of gold, or I have in the past, and I do oil trade for commissions.
And when people want to buy tons and tons of gold, you know, the anthems in the audience, he knows quite a bit about this.
He actually invented the first gold-backed stablecoin, so we probably should have him come on and talk about that.
Can I throw something in on your wheat example just for the audience who may be thinking, what the hell is she talking about?
Wheat is a stable coin, but actually bricks, the nations, this is what they are experimenting with right now is a commodities backed token.
backed asset like digital asset that they can use for cross chain or a cross country trade
as a circumvention to the dollar or as a hedge against the dollar.
And they have specifically mentioned using things like wheat, oil, gold, et cetera.
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really crazy, to be honest with you, but not crazy in the sense that it's cuckoo. Crazy in the sense that, you know, we're trying to establish economies that is backed by something tangible, you know, instead of like the BS of what the government tells us, which is fiat currency.
Like if everybody stops using fiat currency, what value does it have?
You know, but with commodity backed currencies, we're really going to go a lot farther
in society. You know, it gets that, what we left in the 70s, you know, like when USD, when our fiat
currency here in USD, when it was no longer backed by gold, you know, it started to tank massively.
Like, that's why we have so much inflation right now. It's not our, our money's not backed by anything. And stable coins, honestly, they give us that stability
as a kooky and goofy as that sounds. It does, you know, put your money where your mouth is,
put something tangible behind your money. Okay. You know, there's a, there's a basic part of this that I'm not sure I am clear on, but let me give my definition.
And just for the very basic, a stablecoin means that the price is not going to go up and down.
And it's a stability to be able to make other transactions.
Are there any, is that the difference between saying stablecoin and just saying crypto?
Is that the difference between saying stablecoin and just saying crypto?
I, Elise, if you want to take this right, Adele was going to say something.
I didn't get a question.
My Wi-Fi is so bad.
You'll have to speak up, Warren.
Okay.
What's the difference between a stablecoin and crypto?
We want to make sure, you know, you said back up.
I want to go right to the beginning. Yeah. So a stablecoin and crypto? We want to make sure, you know, you said back up.
I want to go right to the beginning.
Yeah, so a stable coin is a cryptocurrency.
And so a cryptocurrency would be a digital asset and then underneath the cryptocurrency
would be a stable coin or a stable digital asset.
So it would be a problem.
They are the same, but they are not the same.
And, you know, a really good example, though, Warren, is MasterCoin.
MasterCoin was invented in 2011 by J.R. Willett.
He's a really fantastic, great guy, way too far ahead of his time during that time.
And he invented, MasterCoin was a non-fungible token before we had a word for it.
And it was also a stable coin at the same time. So, and what was it? It was just a lot of
amazing nonsense that was way too early for its time. But it had identified.
The big angels did a lot of the raise for. Yeah, not right not raise actually um michael turpin and
david johnson gave jr will at a million dollars and that's what jump-started um mastercoin right
and then they okay kind of took off from there yeah that is what what mean what the definition
of a stable coin is the one i'm most familiar with is tether of course
tether when i look at the charts sells for you know 99.999 cents and are a dollar 0.001 uh it's
it's supposed to be one dollar i think so i think the i think what warren is getting at is some of the things we're discussing here, wheat-backed stablecoins, algorithmic stablecoins, gold-backed stablecoins.
These would be, I mean, the truth is that the dollar, yes, something is pegged to the dollar.
So you could have a gold-backed stablecoin that says this is one gold or one-tenth of an ounce of gold or whatever.
One gold.
One ounce of gold or whatever, one ounce of gold. And it would maybe stay pegged
to the price of gold if you were denominating and if your charts were in gold, but it would
have a change in value. And by the way, US dollar stablecoin and other countries' stablecoins,
they also fluctuate in value. It's just we're pricing them against the dollar. So
this is where things get kind of weird. One, if it's really simple and it's just we're pricing them against the dollar. So this is where things get kind of weird, you know.
One, if it's really simple and it's just backed by something like gold.
Or it gets really weird if you start backing it by other things, multiple things, baskets of things.
Because then it would have a constantly fluctuating value.
I mean, a gold-backed stablecoin, if you go on CoinMarketCap right now, you can look at Tether Gold and you can watch its price.
It's got a chart and it does go up and down. It's just following the price of gold.
So I guess there's a question of like stable coin versus pegged commodity asset almost.
There's almost not an umbrella that covers everything exactly. Yeah.
It's kind of one of those interesting things.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, it's one of those interesting things.
We treat the dollar like it's a stable, like it's an independent variable, and it's really a dependent variable.
It's based on the full faith and credit of the United States,
all of our labor markets, all of our financial markets, and we act like that's a stable factor. And the concept of a capital
economy is so volatile, and that's what makes it work. And whenever we start moving to the
more advanced levels of stablecoin, moving away from the dollar with extra steps towards
the stacked stablecoins, towards the multi-baskets of goods
up into the stablecoin 2.0 region, we start seeing that the stability moves towards the
lowest common denominator where it moves closer to the goods and services. And the goods and
services are actually what's stable because an egg is always so many calories. Gasoline is always
so many octane. And that brings us together where we
can actually get closer. And the closer we get to that least common denominator,
the more stable we're going to see and the more we're going to be able to see it as a means of
international exchange. Yeah. Well, when you look at some of the basics of economics and how things
work and you try to reduce it down to the very, very basic.
You've got energy, you got time, things like that.
And we start measuring things that way.
First of all, it makes Bitcoin look really good
because what size of a house you could buy
with one Bitcoin,
well, I guess housing,
or how many Bitcoin or the X amount of Bitcoin versus how much you buy a house
is doubled in prices, but Bitcoin triple.
That sort of math.
Please don't quote me on those numbers.
But it definitely is.
You may get a much better return on Bitcoin.
So why not price your house in Bitcoin?
I was just listening to somebody explain how future mortgages will probably say,
you said somebody is putting up their Bitcoin to finance
your mortgage on the house,
you'd be paying them back in Bitcoin.
My immediate thought was,
no, I want to borrow in Bitcoin and pay back in dollars.
I haven't kept my dollars in Bitcoin
until it was time to make the payments.
But yeah, a whole lot of things you can do.
But basically, back to what we were talking about,
the effects of what this does to DeFi, Crypto, Web3, the title today.
Yes, it's going to make a whole lot of difference.
One is because it decouples from having permission of
the US government to be able to use the currency. If we have our money backed by dollars, but in
a stable coin, there's a whole lot of ways you can move them around that you can't do with dollars.
So just on that basic level, it means it changes the economics of how many dollars are there.
And instead of a bank creating a dollar when they issue a loan, it's stable.
It's the same amount.
And when you see there's going to be inflation, you make sure you get out of something that's
dollar back.
But still, long term, you can use it as a medium exchange. International contracts, for instance, buying and selling oil.
We used to have something called petrodollars, which and euro dollars, when I learned about this stuff, you know, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
It was a wonder we had any oil, it was so long ago.
They were still living dinosaurs, but that's a joke.
That's a bad joke.
No one with their mic on laughed.
I guess it wasn't funny.
But no, when we had those kinds of things,
they were denominating dollars in certain ways.
And when I learned about trade deficits
and the exchange between countries,
mostly dollars today,
if a country gets a whole lot of dollars
compared to what they're able to use,
well, then they've got a problem.
If they get too little dollars,
they've also got a problem.
And we were just having a meeting yesterday, and, you know, we were discussing this.
There are places in Africa where people are so starved for dollars, they don't know what to do.
They can, if they can convert their money into a stable coin or into anything that they can put into a crypto wallet,
they have all sorts of opportunities that they don't have
if they keep their money under a mattress
or in their local bank and the inflation is going at,
you know, 10, 40%, geez, I've heard like 10% a month,
but, you know, 40% a year and up becomes things
where holding the money really hurts.
We think we've got it bad, but Argentina is no place to keep your money in pesos.
You want to get out and get it into something else.
By having these kind of instruments, we have the ability to transfer things out of whatever currency we have, use them internationally.
And I think that's going to be a big effect because the amount of currency that is,
or when things are denominated in Bitcoin in the future,
the number of things we're going to be able to do that don't rely on the U.S. government,
say, here are the greenbacks you can use to trade.
I think
it's gonna have a great effect on on things anybody else want to comment on
what those effects will be
who haven't we heard from
Adele is reconnecting here.
I can step in on that.
Yeah, I can step in on that.
Whenever we start, yeah, from an economic standpoint, we see a move away from market cap to utility and defined value versus market value.
So we look at kind of the mercantile system that the English have been using for the better part of a millennia, and it's more mercantile than it is pure capital.
That was really what Adam Smith was talking about whenever he started getting into that area. And as we look at value being based on utility versus value being based on a preconceived concept that we're just taught in school, the coin itself, whether it's Bitcoin, whether it's Solano, whether it's Tether, whether it's Kios, any of these tokens, as they prove utility,
will become more useful within society and specifically within a specific niche,
because the concept of currency generally as a buy-all, get-all, uniform system is a real step
away from the barter system, which is the most efficient economy and as we use more specific coins that deal more specifically
with the needs that we're addressing in that transaction it's the difference between trying
to pound a nail in with a hammer and trying to pound it in with a screwdriver and these specific
stables so specifically as we move through the different levels of stable coin I really like
Eli's overview of the top five kinds
of stablecoins, but there are like, like you start breaking it down into even more micro categories.
You see that they're incredibly functional and there are different uses. And if you go and say,
hey, Tether's great. Like whenever we're doing a major Bitcoin remediation where we're trying to
transfer a large amount of Bitcoin, Tether works great. It's better than having suitcases full of money. But whenever you're talking about going and doing internal
transactions within a company, measuring your paper clips, your ink toner, stuff like that,
that is another utility that stable coins can be used for. And as we build this out,
these private stables and public stables, the way they interact between the two,
I believe it's going to eliminate a lot of the efficiency and get more budgets on the blockchain
so we can see how this functions. And I really think it's going to bring efficiency in. And it's
such an important element of the new economy that we're seeing form around the digital space.
I want to understand something more what you're saying here. And I want to get Anthem maybe to
jump in his opinion too, because I saw him liking and hearting. But when you say that barter is the most efficient system, I got to push back on that because you have the shoes. I don't want, you know, I want shoes, but you don't want my cow.
It's also a coincidence of like quantity, which is a cow is worth a lot more than shoes
and I don't need a hundred pairs of shoes.
So to me, barter is actually inefficient and that's why we make money.
And I would argue the argument you're making sounds similar to an argument like Peter Schiff
or a gold bug would make, which is the value of currencies derived from utility. I think historically that's probably very true, but
we see something like Bitcoin that doesn't have a whole lot of utility unless you quantify utility
just as store value, which is the best fucking utility you could have, I'd argue. But we don't
need to make gold chains out of our Bitcoin, or we don't need with Ethereum necessarily that it's like the oil that runs the blockchain.
Now, could those things create moneyness?
And could we have things become money because of their utility?
100% absolutely.
That's probably more the rule than the exception.
But I don't think that that's necessarily needed.
I think that Bitcoin as just money is a better form of money,
something that is not attached to utility,
does not have volatility based on supply demand for industry.
So I want to hear what your opinion is on that.
And we also have Anthem with his hand up.
Yeah.
I think there's something in between what you're
saying and what christopher was saying because um you know the the best the best trade is going to
be if i have value and you have value we establish what that is and make the trade and barter
obviously is best there but then at some point when there's more people trading, different transactions,
money as a form of IOU to equal things out is great. It's great utility. And yes, Bitcoin is the best of that. But at a very basic level, if we can figure out a way to transfer value
with as little friction as possible, which means we get rid of all financial way of doing this.
The whole finance industry is about people making money by moving money around.
But when we get to just you and me trading, there's always a better way to trade than
to have it just be a cash transaction that runs especially through a centralized system.
So I think what we're going to see is more currencies and more ways to trade.
One of the things we're talking about at Paisley as we develop what that's going to be used for is that an individual creator can create this is the value for X number of my hours or three of whatever it is I output in widgets, and then
the market can determine what that's worth, but that you can pre-style labor that way,
use it as your own token to trade something, becomes infinite in the number of ways we
can create and establish a record of our value without having to go through some one centralized source
for value.
And I'll yield to Anthem.
Hey, no, all great things learning a lot here.
And yeah, so my view on to kind, maybe to work backward, my view on kind of the why Neo Barter is going to probably be the future for the next few millennia, at least, in my humble opinion, is that ultimately it is more efficient and that it is a direct match, ultimately, but only if it can be automated, which really only
occurred in the digital age, the possibility, which is obviously kind of where we're in limbo,
kind of purgatory, so to speak, in my view. And so I view money as a fiat creation. I view it
actually as a violent currency. That's my definition of money. I know it's probably really controversial, but I'm okay with controversy. Sadly agree.
So I just view it as anything fiat I view as something that has to be a definition,
which has to ultimately be created and consensus by a bunch of human beings ultimately, at least historically. And the reality is anything that you can define as being defendable
is ultimately as well aggressable because anything that is defendable,
you can aggress, you can be violent against ultimately.
And that's the conundrum.
And that's why I think we put historically have placed so
much excess value in carbon like diamonds, right? And I actually think it's why it's a good indicator
why diamonds have deflated as a credit marker. And I think it's good why gold and oil are basically
and land are all deflating as credit markers against Bitcoin software keys and even
other, you know, Ethereum software keys, et cetera. I think all that's super positive. And
one phenomenon that I've kind of been open, I was speaking with a friend of mine in Japan this
morning and, you know, he's involved in some of what they call, I guess, RWA now, I guess, is the new lingo, right, for stablecoin. And so basically kind of what opened my mind up a little bit was this concept, right?
You know, we live in a banking state marketplace world, and we have for centuries at least,
and, you know, it's kind of masked by nation states.
And, you know, one of the challenges, of course, is the banking state, the central banking state specifically has to really stimulate the economy generally globally.
That's kind of their job. You know, the nation states are kind of like the Pinocchio puppets.
Right. That we live in. And so the challenge, of course, is actual commercial lending.
Right. Because all these it's almost impossible if you're not if you're not dealing in something that's ultra high risk
or is directly regulated like mortgages or basically cars or leases like that, right?
Debt.
And I think that's a really good opportunity in the near term,
kind of the next decade or so for stable coins where you're tethered,
for lack of a better word
to something more physical or something more real quote unquote like real collateral or a more liquid
collateral ultimately of some sort it could be synthetic or hybrid you know whatever but
you know something you know that again you can just derive more yield from realistically than you can off of the
traditional financial system. So that's kind of, I don't know, that's an interesting potential for
me, I can see is like across the Chasm Bridge for, you know, all of us here in humanity trying
to figure this thing out, right? So anyway, that's kind of my two cents. But I'd love to listen more
because honestly, I've kind of been out of the space operationally for at least a few years now on the stable coin front specifically.
So, yeah.
I'll break in here and remind everybody this is the BitAngel Spaces every Thursday at 1 p.m.
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With that, yeah, I'm finding this fascinating conversation.
The idea that just came to me is that any token that is set with some
value other than what the market will bear, it's not just a pure meme coin. We made a billion
tokens and we want everybody to have one. Today, just about everything can have some kind of stability. The math makes, and the contract of only having 21 million
makes the Bitcoin stable.
If you have it attached to one piece of real estate,
it's stable, one piece of art, one ounce of gold.
Those things are all much more stable than,
hey, we're making these,
hoping they're going to be worth something someday,
which is where a lot of crypto came from
over the past decade.
And most of the ones that are gone
had that kind of a problem.
Built-in utility to what it's doing,
it's always going to have some value,
whether that's saying, I'm going to give you,
you know, 10 hours of my freelance labor
for every one of these tokens you get, or, you know, I'm going to give you, you know, 10 hours of my freelance labor for every one of these tokens you get.
Or, you know, I'm going to be able to attach it to my house or my car or anything.
We'll be able to use it in real world assets.
Real world assets are basically a stable coin that's not, you know, tied to the financial instruments we're familiar with.
Anybody else have thoughts on that?
Alex had her hand up.
Hey, Alex, welcome.
Good to see you.
Hey, Rock.
Good to see you too.
Thanks for the invite.
Appreciate it.
So this is interesting.
I did a space already on,
I'm assuming you're talking about the Genius Bill.
A lot of law that happened today is coming up, I guess, this week.
It's been a super busy week.
You're just catching me like literally between calls.
And what's really funny is I advised a client on something and literally got a statement on that Senate vote like 20 minutes after the
call ended.
And I had to call him back and go, well, wait one minute.
We might be able to work around this easier.
So a bunch of stuff happening.
I'm sure you guys have talked about it already.
No, actually, we were more talking about history of stablecoins and stablecoin theory, kind of.
But we'd love if you can give us more updates on that.
We haven't gotten into that yet.
For sure.
So the big news right now is the stablecoin bill, which is the stable bill, right?
So there are two big bills that were introduced, the stable and bill, which is the stable bill, right? So there are two big bills that were
introduced, the stable and the genius bill. The stable bill has gone through the Senate.
So we are now, the House has just now introduced its own version of the stable bill.
of the stable bill. And it has some differences from the Senate version. I haven't seen the bill,
so I don't know what the differences are. They say that there are some differences to smooth over.
I don't know how big they are. Depending on how big, you know, those two bills then have to be reconciled. So if they're big
enough, then we're looking at essentially several amendments going back and forth between the houses
before something gets put together fundamentally. So if you want to know details about
the stable bill, I did a bill breakdown. It's in my profile. You can hear the breakdown of that bill.
But fundamentally, that's basically payment stable coins are permitted.
They have to go through banks or credit unions.
There is a possibility of doing them through DEXs, but essentially they get regulated as
though they are not through DEXs.
They can be done through non-bank, non-credit unions, right?
So essentially there's three different types of stable coin generators, right?
types of stablecoin generators, right? Banks, which they love, credit unions also love because
they're very much like banks. Then there's everything else, which is us, right? Third-party
creators of stablecoins. And the third-party creator of stable coins was very restrictive in the past stable coin bill. If
you guys remember the original stable coin bill that came out like 2022, that was generated
primarily from the presidential working group. That one was super restrictive and essentially
made it like you were in, you had to be essentially regulated like a bank.
And there were a lot, there was a lot of oversight that was required that wouldn't have been required
for banks, right? So it was worse than a bank if you were a non-bank trying to create a stablecoin.
So this one is better than that, but is still fairly restrictive if you are a non-bank, but is doable,
right, is doable. However, all stablecoins have to be fiat-backed, and primarily they still look
like dollar-backed. Now, remember that fiat-backed stablecoins are not the best kind of stablecoins.
We don't like pegged economies, essentially for many reasons,
and we can get into that another time, but all pegged economies fail over time. We have many
thousands of years of history to show us that. But fundamentally, all of these end up being
dollar alternatives. That doesn't give us what we need with stablecoins. Stablecoins are
fundamentally fiat alternatives. And right now, the global economy is essentially tied to the dollar.
For the safety of the global economy, right, it actually is a very reasonable goal to have
a fiat alternative, especially if it's a dollar alternative. The problem is if all
dollar alternatives are actually dollars, then we don't really have a safeguard
in case the dollar fails. There's nowhere to put money if the dollar is overinflationary or shaky
or whatever it is. There's nowhere that is a good safeguard.
There isn't really even a place where you can experiment with your economy if you have different sets of resources or goals for your economy, right?
All economies are fundamentally tied to the same goals and practices as the U.S., even when that's not appropriate, right?
They're not the same size.
There's not the same practices. They don't have the same safeguards. It doesn't really work,
right? So there's economies that can't really function the way that the U.S. does,
but they're tied to it simply because their economy in some way is tied to the U.S. dollar.
So it's a very healthy thing overall to have an alternative,
but having it be a dollar alternative is fundamentally problematic. But this particular
law is favored by Congress and has been for a long time since we saw in 2021 those congressional
rulings. All they really want, all Congress really understands is, yay, it's another buyer for dollars, which is not
awesome. But- Well, I guess it depends on who you're asking. If you ask them, it is awesome.
Yeah, that's what they want, right? That's what they're looking for. That's exactly what they
want. That's what was sold to them. Those are the people that they interviewed. They literally interviewed only people who had dollar alternative coins like Circle. And they literally sold it as,
and look, it's another use for dollars. You can go back to the congressional testimony,
and that's exactly how they sold it. So fundamentally, that's what you're getting.
And that's the only thing that's okay. Now, the one thing about this is that they are promoting the use of banks essentially as on and off ramps.
Right. So part of this is also what has led to the promotion of banks being on and off ramps for blockchain, right? Because if you remember, even last year,
one of that, the moral protocol for those of you who have worked with banks or have tried to open
a bank account and you're in blockchain, you may know that there's this sort of the haze list, right, or the moral protocol for banks where
they, if you are in certain areas or you are, you're in business in certain areas or, or you
earn money in certain areas there, they do not want to do business with you, right? You can't
have your money in a bank. If you're in business in certain areas like porn, if you're in a business in dispensaries, marijuana dispensaries, things like that,
there are many banks that will say, well, no, we don't want to do business with you,
or we don't want to know about your business. One of those was crypto. Crypto, apparently
identical to porn, right? It's bad. So it was very difficult to be able to build on ramps to a lot of businesses
simply because banks viewed this as something that was almost like one of the AML no-goes,
right? So one of the things that changed almost immediately when Trump became president was this letter that went out saying, promoting banks, saying it was acceptable for banks.
Right. This is part of this OCC repeal that that if I don't know if anybody's really been talking about this, but that the OCC is the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency,
where the policy has formally changed, saying that banks should no longer consider crypto
one of these no-go policies, right? They are encouraged to do business with people who are
in business with crypto, right, who have crypto transactions, right? So part of that is
also this ability to have stable coins and that banks themselves will be issuing stable coins,
right, and will be doing business with stable coins. Banks themselves will be doing business
with crypto and chains themselves. So in anticipation of that, this OCC
policy being changed should open up ramps. Now, my personal opinion on that is that we should also
have an alternative that we have on and off ramps that have nothing to do with banks.
It can be created. It's not doable. It's definitely doable,
but it requires a larger effort. It will require some significant money,
but it is definitely possible to do it because I don't like relying on the goodwill
of an administration. Aside from that, another- Wait, can I pause you there so we can understand?
So, okay. Are you saying that generally, though, these all of...
So you said there were three parts to it, three types or whatever.
Can you make an algorithmic stablecoin?
Is that against the rules now or is it just not approved by this?
Could you have a gold-backed stablecoin?
Where are we at?
No, not gold-backed.
No, not algorithmic, nothing. Only fiat-backed stablecoins. Now,
the end part of this bill talks about a moratorium on any other kind of stablecoin
for two years. That was also in the original bill, that 2020 bill or 2022 bill. That means,
right, and that takes effect as soon as this bill takes effect.
Anyone who is planning on building any other stable coin, get it out before this bill passes
because it doesn't apply to stable coins that are currently existent. So you have to have your
stable coin out by the time the bill passes.
If you're just in the planning stages of your stablecoin, it's too late, right?
Because it takes time to actually get your stablecoin out.
Don't just throw something out there to throw it out there. But if you are close, right, if you're in past development and you're planning on launching, launch it sooner rather than later.
You know what people might do? People might do some kind of SPAC style because if all the
stable coins that are out right now are like, you know, grandfathered in, at least for this two year
time period or whatever, or permanent, I don't know, you can explain more, but if you are
grandfathered in, then you could, if later on you wanted to I don't know, you can explain more. But if you are grandfathered in,
then you could, if later on you wanted to develop a stable coin, you could buy out an old stable coin and use it as your, and then adjust it, change it, whatever. Just like people did with
SPACs in the stock market. Unclear if that would be permitted. Unclear. It's unclear if you could change the terms of a stable coin that was that was currently existent and be able to call that your new like make a new stable coin.
So I like how you think. Right. Like that. That's an interesting idea. Basically put something out there like an empty stable coin and then actually like program it later. But it's unclear
as to whether you could have a blank or non-functioning or partly functional or falsely
functional stable coin and alter it during the moratorium period. I don't know. The way the
language is written, it looks like you need to have your stablecoin out. Like only ones that are functioning at the time that the moratorium starts will be allowed to continue.
This sounds kind of terrible.
What is your opinion on all this?
I mean, it sounds like this is going to quelch innovation.
I don't like it because I don't know what they're looking for during this moratorium.
Like I personally am not a fan of the – like I'm fine with having a couple of fiat, but we have them already, right? We have some fiat-backed
coins. We don't need more. But the idea of saying none of these other ones, which is where the most
promising ones are, and then trying to say, well, we need to know what the implications or whatever are. Honestly, what is Congress going to do to figure out what they are? That's not really Congress's job. Congress's job is not to figure out, like, are these functional? Are these not? Does this programming really work? Are they really going to look at these smart contracts and start breaking
them down? Not really. I mean, really what's- And picking winners, kingmaking?
I mean, could they even? Do they have that knowledge? Not really, right? I don't really
think that they're going to develop a committee of elected officials or elected officials' little
cronies that are going to be able to figure out
which one of these is going to work, right? That's really sort of, if any of the government
offices, it's really the Fed that would have the best shot of doing that. But the Fed is busy
working on fiat. That's really what they're designed to do. They're not, nobody in government
right now is in the business of creating a new economic tool.
There's nobody in there who knows how to do that right now.
Well, they do with Swift and with PayNow, what's the new PayNow, whatever.
Those are all fiat-based tools for the current economy.
That's not an economic, like they're not creating a new economy, right?
They're not creating a new tool for a new economy.
They're creating like payment systems. That's what Swift and all that really are just payment systems. And they're good at that. That's fine. Right. But they're not they're not.
That's what they're trying to make means. It sounds like that's what they're trying to make stable coins, just simple payment systems. And really, they're just they're just wrapped, you just wrapped dollar system. Yeah, if they consider them just payment systems, then they really don't understand what a stablecoin is or could be.
Then they don't understand fundamentally what a stablecoin is or what the potential of it could be.
So they don't belong wherever they are, right?
That's not the appropriate person for that office. But right now, I mean,
I think a branch of the Fed, you know, could be in the future, right, along with like some,
you know, Treasury and economic advisors maybe could understand this. But it's not really the
role of government to understand potential economic tools, because fundamentally,
these stablecoins are designed to function outside of government. And that's the best place for them to be, right? Even for government,
because that allows people the freedom to say, wait, all the government systems,
they're doing something, they're going to try something, right? Uh-oh, it's not working. I need another
place to save my value. Let me go to this other system to save my value. If it's all run by the
same people, there's no safety net, right? The safety net has to be outside the system.
If the safety net's inside the system, it's too convenient and easy to steal from the safety net, right? That's what keeps
happening in our government. We keep stealing from safety nets to pay for other things. We don't keep
anything separate. None of it really works, right? So in order to keep a safety net actually
functional, it has to be outside the system and it has to be available to a huge variety of people.
and it has to be available to a huge variety of people, that's what keeps the safety net
functional, right? So I think fundamentally, it works best for everyone if it's developed
and maintained outside the system. That encourages innovation within economies,
between economies. It makes sure that if a fiat fails, then there's a place to go.
If a fiat fails, then there's a place to go.
But also, look, let's say you've got an economy, you've got a stablecoin that's functioning well, and then someone decides to build true DeFi, right?
Which is where the future is.
If you look at my book, that's the last chapter is literally all the DeFi tools that are going to happen in the future, which is true financial
tools that just don't involve banks. And people are building things that develop interest and
are financial tools that are funding things off of these non-bank funded tools in your safety net,
off the stable coin or set of stable coins, et cetera. And now people are like,
wait a second, I can get more for my money off of that rail than off of the fiat.
So now fiat has to become competitive in order to get money. So now fiat is forced to become
better, more efficient, more dynamic, stay closer to the non-inflationary value.
Fiat no longer gets to be whatever it wants to be. It can't have too many masters. It no longer
gets to be about having to function for unemployment and maintaining no inflation.
maintaining no inflation. We have to decouple things for every economy and say, look,
fiat has to function the best it possibly can. And we'll have to figure out other ways to do
all the other things fiat has been told it should do, right? It's just going to have to function
very well for the economy. And it has to fight for people's money now. And if it is not doing a good job,
if governments are not doing a good job with its fiat, then they lose people, right? They lose
customers for their fiat. And there's a place for people to go. And that makes fiat as lean as
possible, as competitive as possible. Banks are as competitive as possible. If they're not,
people won't go there, right? That's the whole goal. I'm a capitalist. That's a capitalist system.
Competition is good for systems fundamentally. That's what I believe. I believe competition is
good. And having this kind of a system where you've got a stablecoin that's like
extra national and you've got an internal system that's fighting to keep money within its system,
both of them are trying to work very hard to make themselves as competitive as possible
for every national's money. I think both of them end up doing very well. So fundamentally, I think it's good to keep this system completely outside of it.
And even though I understand governments may not love that, right, because nobody wants
to compete when they have a monopoly.
That's the way things are.
People love to keep their monopolies.
But it's not the healthiest thing for the country.
It's not the healthiest thing for the money.
It's not the healthiest thing for the institutions. And it's definitely not the healthiest thing for the country. It's not the healthiest thing for the money. It's not the healthiest thing for the institutions. And it's definitely not the healthiest thing for the
nationals. So many good points there, Alex. I see we have Helmer who hadn't, man, so many points I
want to dig into there, but we got a lot of hands up. We got Helmer here. I don't know who you are, Helmer, but
oh, I think, are you
Lady Rocket's son?
No, I'm not her son.
No, no, no, he's not, but he's
a fine user
of Copernic Space
platform who just sent
Web3 to the moon.
But thank you, Rock, for
remembering that I have a great son who is
actually in touch with polygon so we were going to chat about you because we're so busy to get
our space assets to the moon including polygon that we forgot to apply for grants and give you
guys some practitioner particular you know recognition for being first blockchain servicing space economy from the moon.
So anyway.
Okay, but did you or Helmer have anything about stable coins right now?
Yes, absolutely.
To the point of Alex.
We're on a pretty good little riff right now.
Yeah.
And hello to Warren and thank you BitAngels for hosting me and my team in the Denver.
Acknowledging Alex's expertise as always, I think he points that she made is that
ultimately it's about new economies who can deploy usage of DeFi crypto and Web3. And I am wondering if there is a particular area of economy
that you feel is particularly aligned with what could make crypto less boring,
more adaptable, and more acceptable.
And of course, I am disclosing my total bias is where I put my money,
my time and resources, which is space economy and Formula One.
So what would be your, I would say, perfect dream economy
to bring to especially crypto more and more appeal and acceptance.
Well, it seems like we're we're changing how we define time when we go into space,
but we should also be looking at how we define finance and exchange in value.
I'm all for the Star Trek world where I never see anybody pulling out their wallet to pay for anything.
But as we get to that point, definitely sticking to the US dollars, the ultimate value is probably short-sighted.
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Okay. So we were on a really, yeah, yeah.
So we were on a really good, uh, riff there and I, we kind of got, uh,
pulled a little off topic here
But I want to get back to that that was really
This is really interesting and important stuff for us to discuss generally. I agree with
Most are all of the points you made Alex Helmer. Do you have anything on that or Christopher?
I want to keep going on that path we were on
Correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the path to stablecoins.
Yeah, we're talking about the current stablecoin bill.
And previously, we were talking about the history of stablecoins.
Elise had some incredible stuff.
She's written a couple books on stablecoins.
And so we're going, we've done like stablecoin history, stablecoin like current with the bill and everything, stable coin future and kind of stable coin theory in general.
But yeah.
Well, seeing that we're comparing all of our stable coins as of right now to assets that go up in value and go down in value.
Like it's not necessarily assets, but it's things that hold value and our stable coins
right now are some of them are backed by gold some of them are literally uh algorithmic base
so it depends on the everything that goes on with depending on what they're tracking
so i honestly think that these stable coins they they possess potential to
be useful in day-to-day transactions and that's what this is leading crypto like the fact that
you can just i'm not sure because what blockchain can handle that many transactions without it
breaking that's a problem but i think there'll be a
mishmash of cryptos um that will be in fact here and that's just what i think
okay chris um first i want to oops come on
uh first i want to say uh oops you're my new hero. I loved what she was saying. And one of the things we look at with this new bill that's coming out is the way the grandfather functions is functioning. with different exchanges to be on as a real-world asset back to stable but I
also know that our stable coin process is mentioned in three other white papers
for companies that are bringing out stable coins and to deny them access to
the market is so scary that we're at the process of picking winners and losers
for systems that are quickly evolving and I'm really like fighting
with with some of these things I'm calling congressmen I'm working with
congressmen to make sure that the state level laws are protecting us from
government overreach because whenever you really look at the Commerce Clause
and cryptocurrency and I wrote this in my amicus brief to the Ripple
case, but of course, it's never going to be heard before a judge now because of it being dismissed.
But is the federal government the right place to be regulating stables and other types of crypto?
Because the crypto doesn't move. We go to the crypto online online the portal takes us to the crypto so it
doesn't really cross state lines we cross the state lines and that would put
it in the realm of being a state issue and we really need to protect the
federalist system of the United States government where the states it's the
whole is it the United States or these United States? And these states have just as much right.
And I don't know who else following the Caitlin case out there in Wyoming
where they're fighting because they're being told their bank can't function
the way they want their bank to function.
It's really getting down to where is the monetary policy.
States aren't allowed to issue their own currency,
but there's nothing in the Constitution that stops American citizens
or citizens from other countries from offering currencies
that we use here in the United States.
And I really think this is something that people really need to reach out
to their congresspeople about,
because I think a lot of times the people inside the Beltway
forget that there's a lot of us out here outside the Beltway
that don't bow down to K Street.
Well, for half of the history of the United States, we didn't have a restriction from that.
A bank could issue a currency and states and colonies, if you go back that far.
And then it was the first United States bank and the second bank.
And then finally the Federal Reserve got it, got their clutches on it.
And those guys, the bankers set up a system whereby the money we have now would dominate.
And yeah, I think we should push back to that. But as far as crypto not being, or stablecoins not being a transfer from state to state, it's not where the recipients reside.
It's the laws go by wire transfers.
So, I mean, if you're on the Internet, it's wire transfer.
So I'd like to see that change.
But currently, there is that legal issue that would have to be overcome.
I believe that would take an act of Congress. So under the stable law, this is a weird thing.
And Christopher, you bring up a very interesting point. So the quick thing under, and I'm only,
and I'm sorry to intervene here. I'm a little bit on a time crunch because I have to go pick up my daughter. But the one quick thing, there isn't a carve out for people who have for a stablecoin version that they're making for something that's existent. That's going to be an interesting issue,
Christopher, fight to the death on that one. That's go to the mattresses because that one, if you're making a version of something that's already existent, it should be grandfathered in.
But there isn't really a clear carve out on that one.
The second thing is, I mean, because I would, because I think that's a clear, you know, you should be able to do something because where is the additional risk?
That's the issue, right?
Unless they made a material change in something, there shouldn't be any additional risk. That's the issue, right? Unless they made a material change in something, there shouldn't be
any additional risk. It's already known to people because it's already circulating. It's just a
different version. Like say you made a different chain version of something that's already existent.
There's not any additional risk to the people, right? So there shouldn't be some reason why
it couldn't exist. The other thing is regulation, right? So the Genius Act has this
weird non-genius thing. So it's specifically not a security, specifically not a commodity.
It's not governed by the banks, right? It's not an investment company, something governed by investment companies.
It is not governed by federal banking rules, right? And it is not governed by state supervision
or regulation. So the states have to create regulations that are to determine, they have to create something that is substantially
similar to federal regulatory framework for these stablecoins, right? So it's state framework that
doesn't exist substantially similar to federal framework. That's what's going to govern these
things. I don't know how that is supposed to work, but that's what they have to do. And then they have to annually certify whatever criteria that these stablecoins meet this criteria.
to consumer protection laws. This is a weird thing that they keep insisting on. These are not
products, right? They should not be subject to consumer protection laws. That's a weird thing.
What they buy, right, is subject to consumer protection laws. The stable coin itself is not
subject to consumer protection laws. That's like saying a dollar is subject to consumer protection laws. This is always, whenever I see this, I think, you know, some dummy got,
got hold of the typewriter or the computer, the, the quill, the, whatever the hell it is that they
were writing this with. Some idiot got hold of it and was like, and it's going to be consumer
protection laws. It's like, Oh, that idiot got hold of it again and started writing in a clause. No, no, no. You know, go back to your whatever, you know, antique China set and let the, you know, let the people who actually understand the technology start writing again. deals with anything blockchain, it keeps getting thrown in. And it's because people don't
understand the difference between a medium and a product. And stablecoins are a medium. They are
not a product. So I don't understand this consumer protection thing. It makes no sense to me. I've
never seen consumer protection for a quarter. So this is very strange to me, but this
is another one of these strange clauses in there that hopefully will get hammered out through
amendment. I completely agree that this is something that we have to fight on. And we do
have some comm lines open with the Federal Reserve and other groups to try to protect it for the rest
of the industry. Because as much as it would be wonderful to be one of the only ones allowed to participate
in a space, that's really not the way we should be looking at the world.
We should be working together to build a better space.
And I want, not to push Mitt Romney on anybody, but I want the different laboratories of development.
But I don't want them to be at the state level.
I want them to be at the company and the individual level where we're fighting for this
one of the things we're pushing is especially in blockchain in your space development which um
i don't know how many of you guys saw the article that slipped out a little bit early but we're
actually working with constellation on a uh cryptocurrency for near space development.
And this is already in the process of being,
it's based off of a existing stable coin,
so it should fit into that cutout.
But it's important that we have these conversations
and we're having a big conference for that next year,
like basically a space Jekyll Island,
to try to make sure that it's the exact opposite of what happened
in 1913, where we say, how can we make the people have the ability to protect themselves and have
access to their wealth without stepping in and stepping on their toes? And if anybody wants to
talk to me about that, feel free to reach out. But even after this conversation, I know Alex said
that she had to leave pretty soon. I'd love to talk to you on LinkedIn because
I think there's a lot of interlap and a lot of overlap on what we're doing here.
And it's so important that we fight for the laws to be the laws that we need. Because if we stay
quiet, we end up with the laws that we deserve. And whenever you're too quiet in a republic or a democracy, you get the tyranny that you deserve.
That is 100% true. And yes, let's definitely connect on LinkedIn. And Heather, I don't want
to interfere with time that you need to. I see you. I see you. And the one last thing that I want
to say is about the broker rule. For those of you that caught that, that's also, if you're
interested in knowing more about that IRS broker rule, that dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb rule where
DeFi people are brokers, if you want to hear about that, that's also recorded on my profile.
If you want to know how that works, the Senate just voted to overturn that.
It was like 80 to something, whatever.
So that has to go over to the House. And then the president is probably going to sign it.
So assuming that vote goes well, you know, that will be overturned.
That's where anybody doing anything in DeFi, likely including minors and stuff like that.
There's so many different people uh that
are just like you know programmers like coders are getting dragged into being brokers that rule was
insane uh trying to explain it to people who were like um so all i did was ui ux and now i'm a
broker yes you're a broker it was incredibly's crazy. Are you talking about the money transmitter stuff?
No, not money transmitter. This is a different one. This is your,
this is the IRS version of broker. So just like,
you know how capital has a different meaning in finance versus economics
broker has a different meaning in securities versus the IRS.
So this is the IRS version of broker. They were dragging, even though
they promised that broker was not going to include all of these people who, like if you guys remember
the Treasury saying, no, broker is not going to include all of these other people that don't have
anything to do with closing transactions. They ended up bringing out this rule that
included all these people who don't close transactions, but help make transactions occur.
And so they came out with that rule earlier this year. So now they're working to overturn it.
So just FYI, it looks positive that that rule will be overturned, which is good.
If it doesn't get overturned, you guys should know what that rule is because a ton of people
in DeFi right now are brokers, which doesn't mean a ton right now, but eventually means things like
assuming it doesn't get overturned, you're going to have to have withholding tax. You're going to have to have withholding tax. You're going to have to hold that for everybody who deals with your whatever app you're creating.
You're going to have to understand.
You're going to be liable for some of the stuff that people who use your little aggregator or whatever.
It's crazy.
It's a crazy rule.
If you want to know a bit more about it, like I said, it's on my profile.
Anyway, I got to hop. Alex, you can't go. We got to ask you one more question, but
can you stay a few more minutes? I want to go to Heather and be polite, but I want to come back to
you. I have one more question for you. If you could stay on. Thanks, Alex. Appreciate you.
I'm going to get ready to walk, but go ahead. I'll just sit here.
Go ahead, Heather. Thank you, Chris and Alex. I totally
appreciate the multitasking. Thanks for this fantastic panel discussion to all contributors.
Chris, what you just had to say about the ecosystem of a stable coin around a particular scenario
that you're working with on near Earth you know, near earth orbit economic elements.
That's kind of building on what you were saying earlier about building, building value in stable
coins through the actual context of a different, of a distinct transaction type. And the, we're
working on something like that at AI Mind Systems Foundation, and I wanted to get the panel's take.
we see it as in the way that civil liberties can be compromised through CDBTs,
that problem can be inverted and turned into a strong value prop when transactions are combined
to a specific transaction type or a certain value chain.
To me, that implicates that semi-fungible tokens need to be used or ERC 3525s, which
right now breaks most of the token taxonomies that I've seen.
And the implication is that the fungible part is the value, the peg, the transaction type,
and the semi-fungible or the non-fungible portion is the ability to trace the use of
that particular staple coin in very specific transactions and value chains where that is
specific transactions and value chains where that is desired. So I'd love to just hear any take from
desired.
the panel on anything you've seen on that strategy, your opinions, and that's all. Thank you. Over.
I didn't actually, sorry, I'm inviting people in the background also, but I didn't quite understand the issue with the ERC-20.
Can you expand on that?
I'm trying to, by the way, we might have some other big guests coming, guys.
I'm trying to get my good friend Sam, who's the founder of Frax, one of the biggest stable coins, and some other political type figures up.
But yeah, could you double tap on that,
what the problem is with them being ERC-20?
Well, if you want to apply transaction specific
context dependent requirements and details,
basically realizing the vision of programmable,
basically realizing the vision of programmable, fully programmable money.
fully programmable money,
And you want to inject that into a certain context.
We're working on certain context for that.
Chris mentioned a couple of others.
I think that to realize that, you actually need to use a semi-fungible NFT.
Oh, interesting. semi-fungible nft uh oh interesting that's an erc 35 25 not 20 in order to affect that in a full
in a fulsome way the i think there's a lot of opportunities there but it's also an immediate
term challenge because it's not really addressed in in the proposed is it excluded Are any type of hybrid non-fungible or non-fungible not, are they excluded from this bill? Or are you saying it specifically says only fungible?
It is unclear to me personally. I actually, if any of the panelists know that answer concretely, I would love to have it. So just to give, so like the idea here you're saying is if you wanted to do some more advanced
and innovative stuff, for example, I talked on Kitco News, the Gold Channel a while back
about, I did an in-person interview with them and I talked about how you could program these
things to be like an inheritance.
And yeah, that's a really interesting concept.
So is that the type of stuff you're saying as inheritance or as some other kind of? down that value chain, you then can apply track and trace of both the money side of every transaction
and whatever it is that was being exchanged through that medium of exchange.
So that allows a semi-fungible token enables, technologically, I know that it enables what I'm talking about, but it is a new approach to stable coins that blends a number of considerations from a regulatory perspective.
And that's what I'm really asking about or wanted to hear the panel riff on.
So the scary thing is, and Alex brought this up a bit earlier, and then I want to go to
Adele here who has his hand up. But the scary thing is that if we, this is why when people
are always like, and I've said this on the show, when they say we want regulation, regulate us.
And I'm always like, let's be careful what we ask for. Because when you get regulation,
it starts locking you into things. And then people have to find workarounds to innovate and it causes friction.
I mean, a lot of financial laws that come into place.
Let's look at, you know, the Howey test that was made, you know,
whatever 70 or something years ago, and it's stuck ever since.
So once you put these kinds of laws into place,
you might get stuck with them and it might just stop innovation for who knows
decades, but, um,
better to find a way for technology or market forces to regulate
if you can't um let's see uh adele had his hand up uh so i usually want to do ladies first alex
but adele's had his hand up let's let's go quick to adele dr adele you, Rock. Nice to be here with you.
I'm just trying to riff out of what Heather was saying and maybe get Yael's opinion and
Alex's in terms of like a semi-fungible version of the stable token, kind of like how we refer
to banknote or the cash.
So we have the dollar coin, silver coin, which is similar to what we do with stable coins
right now but the actual printed dollar could be uh an nft like an 11.55 so you could uh this way
create a semi-fungible version of the the stable tokens so i'm... Like a layer on top? Is that covered?
Yeah, like a layer on top. For sure.
That's interesting, Adele.
I mean, I would love
to brainstorm with you on that offline.
My understanding of ERC
3525 is that it's actually
improved upon 1155
in a number of areas.
But breaking it up into layers is a really interesting idea.
I mean, so much of the things we do in the world are layers.
The dollar system is a layered system.
Like, you know, you have, like, let's say with USDC,
we look at it as you can use USDC, you get no yield from it.
They collect the yield in
the background but if you go on usdc or if you go on coinbase or on
uh we can't hear you so something happened oh my goodness his phone died i was wondering if that
was me oh no yeah nope that was that was well alex has her hand up you want to say something
around so uh here's what uh i would say um it all goes into in terms of like this moratorium kind of thing and how it would actually be able to if you would be able to do it, you know, like how it would be if it would be permitted or not permitted and whether or not it's actually something that, you know, how would it be regulated or whatever. So this is interesting. There are different regulations that are running
around right now covering all sorts of different things. Like, for example, this broker thing
covers NFTs for a lot of people who didn't actually even know that. So some of the regulations
out there are covering NFTs and what what is it, 3525 would actually
probably be caught under that, right? So semi-fungible and non-fungible would likely be
grouped together. So you would have to try and figure out how to thread the needle on this.
If you were trying to create something, you need to figure out how to
essentially create it so that you are still creating your end goal, still meeting your end
goal, but also kind of moving around any area that precludes you from doing whatever it is that you want to do. If you wanted to create a stable coin, for example, that was, you know, a 3525.
The first of all, it wouldn't be permitted.
You get to actually.
Did her phone die?
No, no, no, no, no. I just got a phone call.
It wouldn't be permitted to be a stable coin, right, under the current rules, right?
It wouldn't be a stable coin under the genius rule because it's not – I don't know.
Is it dollar-backed or is it something else?
Is it fiat-backed or something else?
It's a blend.
Okay, if it's fiat backed, then it could be considered a stable coin. You'd have to meet the definitions of stable coin. It doesn't require it to be a particular thing, right? It doesn't say necessarily that it has to be a particular type of token. So
could it be, for example, legitimately a different type of token? Yes.
Would it fall under these rules? Yes. Are you looking to evade the moratorium? It wouldn't be
part of the moratorium. This would be permitted, right? Because what are they worried about
particularly? None of this is legal advice. What are they worried about primarily, right?
They're worried about what it's backed by, right? They're not worried about the form of.
So you changing the form of doesn't impact, it likely wouldn't, right? I'm going to use my moderate words, likely would not impact the nature of the regulation covering it, right?
So you could create a different form of, but still fall within the standard regulations for traditional stable coins. Does this make sense?
It does. And the SFT approach that I'm talking about doesn't change anything about the reserve
requirements that it has. And it's great. Thank you for the clarification that the
proposed legislation is silent on the actual token type or token standard.
That's super helpful.
Right. But that is how, for example, if you're getting around these kinds of things, this is why and this is they're free.
So it's not it doesn't even count as a plug. Right.
But when I do read through these things, like I'm going to do the next one is going to be the genius bill. But if when I say I'm reading through a bill and I'm teaching you how to do it,
this is why I suggest people listen to me do these things because I teach you how to read
these regulations for things like that, right? Understanding how reading through the bill
helps you understand, well, when I'm building something, what does this mean for me when I'm building,
right? That's how when you read it, reading the bill, because this is what they're saying,
this is what they're not saying. Here's how I'm interpreting it, right? That's how you read a regulation. Okay, I really have to go right now. So this has been awesome and super fun,
and I'm really glad I got to do this. And so hopefully I'll see you guys next time.
So take care, everyone.
That was exciting.
So I have a question.
What about the De5 usages what what kind of like new things that you guys
are hearing about in generating more yield hey guys i my phone died earlier can you guys hear me
you're back i was just interrupting to say uh uh thank you to everybody that's participated. Please go ahead once again and follow and comment and get active on X as you do and mention us.
It helps us build the community and bring more of these experts on to have discussions on topics like stable points.
Anything else you want, just let us know.
We're here to talk about that.
Rock. Yeah. What's that? coins and anything else you want just let us know we're here to talk about that rock yeah
what's that we we finally ran out of time with uh with um um oh no i'm alex alex my favorite guest of the day and i forgot her name uh but yeah that was really good. She's a wealth of knowledge. She's a rockin' good time.
We've done 10 hours straight one time. She didn't slow down. Yeah, she's a regular guest on our
other larger show, The Aggregated, and me and her have some pretty good discussions. I think we
agree like 80% of the time, and then we have some pretty good clashes, the other 20%, and that's the fun part.
Today I agree with her fully, though.
Rock, you never promote your other spaces.
Tell us about the one that we ought to join you on besides Thursdays at 1pm.
Is the aggregated the quick swap one, or is another one it's called the aggregated i'm not
sure where rock is on this the able to speak did his phone die again yeah it's actually i can i
can tell probably it's called the aggregated yeah it's called the aggregated it's hosted every
friday at 8 a.m uh it's about a threehour space till about 11. And we get a lot of really, really interesting guests,
a lot of big people in the space that come and join.
Right.
I mean, I think we get like a one point.
Tomorrow at 8 a.m.?
Yes, at 8 a.m. PST.
It's going to be about DeFi.
I don't know if Rock is actually going to be able to be there
just because we've got a lot of really important meetings to handle.
But it's going to be all about DeFi.
We've got some pretty big speakers like Morpho, Gauntlet, which are some of the newer compound yield strategies that are on Polygon currently that they've just kind of recently done, plus the lending protocols as well, which is kind of interesting.
You guys are talking about stable coins, kind of like rolls into tomorrow's space a little
bit.
Great.
We'll be sure to join that tomorrow, although at that hour, I might be just listening.
tomorrow although at that hour I might I might be just listening um yeah I mean I would love to
actually get you know everybody onto that show um you know on the various topics that we have
because I mean every single topic is quite interesting in fact we just booked um somebody
for a really interesting show we've kind of got a little bit flexible or diverse,
I guess,
for the topics of the show.
And I want to say the guy,
his name is Ryan Dolan.
I don't know if that rings a bell.
He's like one of the biggest,
like alien,
alien conspiracist theoristsists out there oh wait are we
are we gonna talk about the stargate antarctica project i listen i that the show that they're
gonna have for that i don't even know if they've got planned all i know they've got like one of
the biggest guys for the alien conspiracy is gonna come on i i literally was fact checking
something i saw the other day, because I'm like,
there is no freaking way.
There is no freaking way.
There is no freaking way.
Holy crap. Declassified CIA documents.
Yep, they're right there.
I was like, you've got to be kidding me.
Great.
So there's the plugs for Rock Show,
and now Rock's back.
So let's go ahead and get back to talking about stable coins.
Hey, guys.
It's gone again.
Oh, well, while we were waiting for Rock, I just wanted to add this is Joyce.
And Michael and I were at the D.C. Blockchain Summit yesterday in Washington, D.C.
and I were at the DC blockchain summit yesterday in Washington, DC. And I will tell you guys,
they have it still on the internet. It was live streamed and I believe you can still watch it,
but it was literally a who's who. Bo Hines was there, US Senator Cynthia Loomis, the majority whip, French Hill. These are all the congressmen, senators that are all making the
bills and talking about crypto regulations, stable coins, et cetera. So a lot of the information
will be on their website and you can link and listen to it. But the one thing i will tell you is they are all very very focused on making the us
the center of the crypto world and in speaking with friends from around the world there's a
lot more attention paid to the us and everybody's looking at the us as the leader in all of this
and the stable coins have a really important role because, as Trump will say, Tether allows us to export U.S. debt to other countries because it's backed by U.S. treasuries and other cash equivalents. And the World Liberty Financial launching their USD1 stablecoin announced yesterday from stage at the DC Blockchain Summit with Trump Jr. over there.
So just look forward to a lot more changes and a lot more pro-crypto regulation and movement coming from the US.
and movement coming from the U.S.
By the way, on that topic, Joyce,
any idea of when we should maybe see some of those,
maybe like that deregulation or any of those things take effect?
They're trying to move everything ahead just as fast as they can.
Okay.
And this is Congress in D.C., so fast is relative wonderful what I'm noticing about
the the changes coming is that when you start having new rules about how banks can do something
it's going to take them a while to get that through their own procedures because you know
the things they have to do they don't just like one day here, the law has changed and
put out a sign saying, you know, we now love crypto. But we've been trying to, one of the
companies they advise been trying to get a bank account and they were previously unbanked. And
they have had a lot more positive answers in the last month or so, and they ended up getting an account,
so not following quite the same.
But even when they got the account,
it wasn't based on any of the newer regulations
and executive orders.
So I think that's going to take some time to have that effect.
And I think that when it does,
it's going to have a much larger effect on the market
than we've seen thus far.
That's just my gut feeling on investment advice didn't they just clear like bank of america or
other banks to hold crypto assets was there some news about that in the last like week or two i
think i think that i think the i i believe the status is that any of them can do those things
now it's a question of did you see something where
bank of america had announced that they they had introduced something based on that they've got to
be if they weren't already ready they've got to be close to ready to be announcing all sorts of things
i thought i had heard something about bank of america just in the last week or two
being like getting some i don't know clearance or
more advanced clearance i'm not sure yeah so call your bank and ask them whether or not they'll take
your crypto deposit well interestingly it's still it's still going to be slow right i i just got off
a call with a friend i was actually on a call with dna fund earlier about uh an investment and
they were i was getting recommendations from them because, you know,
I just moved to Puerto Rico. I'm setting up my bank and these things. But one of my other friends
who I got to move here said that the bank like turned one of the banks turned down his company
for a bank account because it had Bitcoin in the name. And so I guessna fund gave us some some alternatives but the crazy thing is you know
just having bitcoin in your name can still get you turned down from banking services we're not
even talking about holding crypto we're just saying getting a bank account for your company
right right you know bank of america bank bank of america ceo brian uh monaghan uh announced like Bank of America CEO Brian Monahan announced last month that they are working on a stable token
if regulations are going to improve on it.
So I think that's what you got it from Rockets.
They're going to have their own stable token within the bank.
token within the bank i personally i think we're going to see a plethora of those if there is any
Personally, I think we're going to see a plethora of those.
indication what happened with trump's kind of like meme coin then melania then all of the rest
trump now has his own stable token us1 so next you a mix of dollars and um and uh debt
and treasury notes which is a new way to package those absolutely you think xrp is going to play
any role in in any of that they want to i know they xrp. XRP will definitely be doing some kind of trial on stablecoins for the next 10 years.
And it'll keep pumping based on some trial they might be doing.
Just kidding.
I heard, listen, every time I hear a new XRP thing, it always surprises me.
But they always talk about being like they're going to be working with the banks.
talk about being like they're going to be working with the banks and then i just recently heard that
like i saw an influencer talking about like japan and the u.s are now going to use xrp
to back or like with gold so they're going to peg it to gold i don't know yeah right i just know
that my dad i'll believe it when i see it i had my dad asking me all about it he goes is this true
and i'm like i doubt it but my you know what's
funny my dad asked me about xrp last night and and a guy over than your dad asked me about it
this morning so i've got a neighbor who except for he asked about xrc or prx or what what and I had to guess it was me and XRP
I've got a neighbor and she always
asks me about XRP almost
every day she sees me walking my dog
and sometimes I have to like
sneak out the back
well
I saw something interesting
bringing us back to stablecoin
that
according to Chat chat GPT.
So the question the source there has been thirty three trillion dollars in transactions in the past year of stablecoins which surpasses Visa and MasterCard.
A definite effect on the economy.
And I think that's going to increase.
I've heard numbers that are just seemed unbelievably high to me that 5 trillion a day goes through the Swiss system.
And since I'm not exposed that very often, what?
That sounds like banks transferring money between themselves.
This is huge. And I found all this while searching on the asking about Bank of America, which of course-
Wait, how much?
Can you repeat that?
How much is moving through Swift?
The first number I heard was $5 trillion.
A day?
Working on a replacement for it.
Yeah.
No fucking way.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah. There's a lot of money moves around that we
don't know about and of course there are much better ways to do it than swift so um we just
have it's a question of when we're going to be able to to adopt those and 33 trillion for the
year in stable points that's uh i don't know what that is but that's yeah that's the billions per day up to
near a trillion i think well well swift is a pretty crappy system it's old it's archaic they've
tried to upgrade little parts of it but it's it's terrible i mean if you can have things moving and
not only moving but settlement within like you but settlement within seconds or let's say with
Bitcoin, 10 minutes. And you can have value transferred around the world and settled
for minimal fees, two pennies to move a billion. I remember seeing over a billion dollars of Bitcoin
moved for like an eight cent fee before. And if you can move money around the world that freely, I mean, it really can change
the whole game for global commerce.
Right.
I mean, I look back at what it took to send a wire when I was a young adult, again, many,
many years ago.
But, you know, if you ever did get to sending a wire, it was a big
deal. Special department at your branch, who may or may not be able to handle it, phone calls,
checking things out until, and then, you know, a couple of days to see it go through,
just because of the time it took to set it up on each end that you know sheesh i mean i remember
i log into my bank account and push a button and the wire is in i remember going to uh my credit
union and asking them hey i want to withdraw and i didn't really want to withdraw it i just wanted
to see uh i was said i want to withdraw three hundred thousand dollars uh how do i do that
and they said you can't
and I said what do you mean I can't?
I can't withdraw my own money
and they said we can try to get an exception
to do something like 10k a week
or something
or like 10k a month
I was like what are you talking about?
right
in a credit union that it's a membership there.
It's another thing we're working on at Paisley that would be the ultimate goal there is to let credit unions set up to be instant.
But, yeah, I think when we get rid of this friction, things are just going to move so much faster.
On top of all the other accelerators we've got coming with technology.
It's an exciting time to be alive.
I know I had to actually move banks, by the way.
I had Chase and ended up having to move over to my credit union
because anytime anything had to do with crypto,
it would get flagged and locked for two weeks at a time.
And I would get phone calls from my bank like hey what are you
doing but i think chris he's got his hand up you know chris i don't think you really have to hold
your hand up i mean i think you can typically just chime in well oh no worries this is worth
waiting for and let's introduce him christopher is going to talk pay attention okay yeah um i really i
really think that it's neat the way that the banks are doing it and um back on the xrp comment it's
the end of the month so you're going to hear all kinds of crazy stuff about xrp because they got
to pump that billion that they drop next tuesday um and and i i love that they do have a stable coin coming out. I participate in a lot of XRP groups, mostly trolling,
but they actually built their stable on Ethereum.
It's not on XRPL, which is really an interesting move for them.
I think we were just talking about that yesterday, weren't we?
The 32,000 missing blocks aside.
Weren't we just talking about that yesterday? weren't we? The 32,000 missing blocks aside. Weren't we just talking about that yesterday?
Or the day before?
I think so.
Sorry, go ahead.
I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
Oh, no worries.
I didn't recognize your picture with the...
Yeah, without the mustache.
Yeah.
Makes it harder to get. But whenever we start looking at back banks adopting
this um there are going to be very advanced banks and i do believe uh bank of america did apply for
an etf on a couple different cryptocurrencies i believe xrp solana bitcoin and ethereum were in
that package and the banks are going to move this around because,
and this is a good thing for crypto, as much as I hate saying Bank of America ever does anything
good. It is a good thing for cryptocurrency because it's going to allow the institutional
investors to be more involved with it. That is the only reason for the ETFs, because if you think
about it, why would you own a piece of paper that says that you own
part of a Bitcoin whenever you can either go out and buy a full Bitcoin, or not a full Bitcoin,
but a piece of a Bitcoin that you actually own, not a piece of paper representing it.
Or you can go with something like BlockPro's model, where you have a paper Bitcoin that you
own the Bitcoin. You don't just own the theory of the Bitcoin. It's just basically an advanced paper wallet. And these banks, the only reason they're doing that is so these traditional
investors can get more involved with it and raise the cap because most of the best practices are
saying you should keep your crypto and your portfolio under 5%, which I do believe is a
little low. But whenever you start talking about ETFs and virtual bonds and stuff like that, you can get up to where the best practices are talking about up to 13%. And that gives a, I mean, that worldwide is probably an eight or $9 trillion bump to the industry if that goes through. While it kind of seems like a rough thing, especially with Bank of America being one of the leading actors, if we see these ETFs come out and these internal uses of private
stablecoins inside the banks, it's going to legitimize the industry even more.
And it's going to open up that best practices for institutional investors, family offices,
annuities, those type of things to actually get crypto involved.
And maybe Granny's Retirement Fund will do a lot better whenever they see the 10x returns of a cryptocurrency rather than the 0.4x or 0.1x returns that you get
with a traditional and finance in a property or oil or whatever you want to go with on that
so absolutely i agree with you on that last point, 100%.
And what I wanted to add to it from what I'm seeing and building is there is now an approach
to mix between the current rails of investments and systems and being able to bring to utilize
the efficiency in the crypto side because
in crypto like rock mentioned you can move stuff very quickly and and like uh uh Warren
mentioned it's like cost nothing to move it around while in the banks it's like uh very
slow but what is still the current uh banking slash trading system have is they are able of generating lots of returns
safely on the upper end. So it's not accessible for like you and me, but accessible for people
that have like a hundred million and up a billion dollars. They can generate a large sums of returns for those and where it gets really exciting is as stable tokens become
adopted in every bank and every institutions not only people start to use that but the stable
tokens themselves will be accessing the other side of the uh the wall street and bringing those into
crypto so having those two together you're going to have
a closed loop like right now I'm building a platform you can generate 200 on your stable
tokens who who could think of that ever happening without like risk on it but by by merging those
two together we're gonna get a huge multiple going forward.
Last thing that I want to leave you with is GameStop adding Bitcoin to their balance sheet.
It will be more accessible to other companies to do the same.
In my view, in the next four years, you're going to have almost half of the U.S. who's who having bitcoin in the form of etfs on their
balance sheet yeah i think the the volume of everything is going up by so much there's room
for all the different theories and ways we're going to do something. I know we were talking earlier about how a government will regulate stable
claims and I'm like, yeah, but then we can also come up with something that works
as extra legal, not illegal.
There'll be plenty of that, but extra legal, where something beyond what the laws
are written for now would come up. We haven't even begun to be
innovative in DeFi. We're mostly copying what's been done in a banking system in the past.
I got to push back there, little Warren, because I love DeFi.
Do you want something to regulate at all?
Oh, no. Hell no. no um no no i'm talking about
yeah yeah yeah i'm talking about innovating in defy i i think there's massive innovation that's
been happening i think there's still so much more well we're yet to invent but like we can use some
examples um let's see a good one uh flash loans. Flash loans are pretty incredible. You can't do that in Tradfly. Flash loans, for those who may not know, or I can go, let's say I find that Bitcoin or ETH or USD, it doesn't matter what it is, an asset is trading for some price on one DEX and I see on another DEX it's trading for a different price.
And I see on another DEX, it's trading for a different price.
Well, instead of going and needing a bunch of capital to arbitrage that opportunity, I can take a flash loan, which is where I go.
And in one transaction, one block, one transaction, I borrow some stable coin or whatever asset.
I sell it on one exchange that it's a higher price i rebuy it i then
send move that over and i rebuy it on another exchange and then i pay the loan back all in one
transaction so this is pretty incredible i mean this is something that never was available in
trad fight and you could do some crazy stuff with that. There've actually been a bunch of exploits also done with this that are not so good. But it's interesting that you
could get a massive amount of capital in one time. You could have no assets and you can take a loan
for a billion dollars if through the smart contracts, you can prove that you can pay back the loan in one click in one
transaction right i i take that as being the arbitrage and it is a is a uh somewhat of an
innovation but it's also what has been done before it's just done a whole lot quicker and so i'm
thinking we're going to come up with more. Okay, I got another one for you.
I got another one for you.
And this is perfectly on point.
So Athena is a stable coin.
It's a synthetic stable coin.
And what Athena does is it holds some crypto assets, stable coins like USDC, USDT, I think Ethereum.
I think it might even hold some Solana, maybe some
Rappbitcoin.
I don't know exactly all the assets, but it holds some of those.
But then it also is people do some hedging.
They do some hedging.
I don't know if it's like Delta neutral strategies with perps or something.
I'm assuming there's some of that in there.
But basically, they're shorting against the but basically they're doing, um, they're,
they're shorting against the market or they're going, maybe they're not always shorting,
but they're going the opposite of the market to find funding rates and, and get, um, to get,
I believe they're getting, um, I believe they're getting like negative funding fees or something, but whatever it is, I can't remember exactly maybe someone else uh has a
better explanation but basically they're getting you a yield on your stable coin by using the funds
to short the assets that they're holding i believe the assets that they're holding they're also
shorting them on the other side maybe with some kind of delta neutral strategy i forget exactly
but anyways it's pretty crazy stuff we're building in the industry in in trading
there's no doubt that we're going to continue to innovate because i started looking at the
implementations and this is just the end guy up in the clouds thinking about things i don't really
understand is that that the trading technology gets better and better bots, better AI helping us in what we do,
it should tend to even out all these arbitrages and make the market affairs more consistent space.
Although something else will come along.
Well, arbitrage is what evens things out.
So arbitrage can be like seen as...
Something you could find about call your broker and get a trade place this week.
And then it was something that the professional traders were beating everybody like that.
And now it's something that you could handle, you know, other than the loan part of what you were describing.
You could do arbitrage with with a Robinhood app, you know Or with a quick swap or a uniswap.
Yeah, of course.
Well, we should all use quick swap.
And we can continue to,
we're going to continue to innovate
and it continues to get quicker and quicker
to the point that, you know,
as soon as you make a trade,
there is an AI reading that
and reconfiguring everything it does for its trade coming up in the next microsecond.
And when we get that fast, then again, that closes these arbitrage windows very quickly.
I don't know this. That's just the feeling. The trend I've seen in the last 40 years seems to be continuing.
the last 40 years seems to be continuing. And at that point, I don't think it's a bad thing
if the arbitrage window gets a lot closer. It's a fairer deal for everybody.
I mean, tight arbitrage keeps markets efficient. There's some negatives to it, but if there's too
much arbitrage, that's kind of where market makers come in to put better
depth and keep things more balanced but anyways we have some other some new speakers here
Adesina and then Coupe Deville and then Heart of Something Heart of Chain Adesina why don't
you introduce yourself and if you have anything to say on all these topics. Oh, Jim, everyone. Like, it's really nice and amazing
to be in this kind of educative space. I'm really grateful and I give thanks to the host,
Pete Angel. Like, to be very honest, this is the first time I'm meeting some amazing and top guys here.
And I've been on this space for a little long and I've learned a lot about stablecoins rule and some others.
So I really appreciate. I'm still around. Like someone else can go on and speak. I'm still around.
All right. And Coop DeVille. not speak i'm still out all right and uh coop deville hey pleasure to finally get a chance to
get on stage you all uh bit angels see a couple friends in the room what's up adele it's good to
see you again man um yeah i got into crypto space in 2014 and i run a blockchain consulting business
called deville crypto solutions and i'm based out of the washington dc area so i work with a lot of the lobbyist firms and know people that are working on the
regulations here in dc um i was actually at the crypto summit here in dc a few weeks ago on the
after party networking and talking so as far as the stable coins i i'm just worried about too many of them saturating the market.
And I see what Ando is doing with the USD1 and World Liberty, and they all kind of playing together.
But I just don't want too many to dilute.
I don't know.
Y'all know what I mean.
It's just too many.
You don't need too many different stablecoins.
Well, I would counter that as the volume volume goes up we might need more to be and it won't hurt uh and uh and i think the market takes care of that over time
if there really are too many some of them will not not do well especially the ones the free market right let them compete that
rock sometimes i wonder whether i need to need to be your co-host because you always agree with
what i say about these things even when we disagree it's over it's a question of how fast
the world's decentralized and uh and uh self-sovereignty and us controlling our own futures and relying on ourselves to do that.
I believe in the power of free markets.
I believe in the power of capitalism to lift all tides.
It'd be really nice if we were able to change the United States back to a free market.
That would be nice.
That's a political discussion, so we'll leave it at that.
Maybe we're on that path right now.
We don't know, and I have my concerns, but generally I think we're trying to move back to a more free market slightly.
I think we're trying to move back to a more free market slightly, but who knows? I mean,
But who knows?
you know, to be honest, Republicans talk about like smaller government and more free markets.
And then every time they just like this new spending bill, they just pushed, it didn't cut
anything. So I don't know if they really, if they're really serious about it, might just be
the narrative. And then they, then they just spend and spend just like the other side so most everything we do doesn't depend on those decisions we saw what happened when they got
involved with crypto uh they're backing off of controlling us now that seems uh so much for the
better and let's hope it keeps going our direction matt i don't know i feel like everything we do is controlled by is is affected so like i
think my my thinking lately is everything you buy 60 70 or 90 of the cost is is due to government
intervention and too much regulation taxes right i mean we've reduced so much friction as i've been
watching any of these things. You were talking about putting
your money someplace and where it is. I was just studying about what happens if you're in an
economy that doesn't have a stable currency. You can put your money in dollars and you don't have
to worry about getting a percentage return on it because you're making so much just by getting it
out of what it was. And I think back to when. And in that case, you're still paying the government massively for that.
I remember when I was like most people, I was a kid and got a savings account and we would go in
once a quarter to have the interest added to the passbook and the passbook and they punch in how
much it is. And then, you know, by the 80s, it was, no, I don't want to go anywhere near a bank.
And then, you know, I learned better ways to do it.
I wanted to keep my money in anything that was going up,
especially late 70s, early 80s when I came of age doing this thing,
was put all your money into real estate and borrow money at 18% on a credit card
if you need to, because that's always going to go up. You're so leveraged in real estate.
Then all the way to today, it's like, I can't find anything better than Bitcoin.
I don't need to worry about a return on it. It's going up fast enough over my lifetime that I'm not too worried about it. I had a thought
today just about what would happen if I started looking at my Bitcoin being worth, you know,
$100 million. Let's just throw out a number. And, you know, wow, you know, I could start planning.
What if it's going to be worth $100 billion?
What would I do differently?
I certainly would try to get some more of it while it's selling at such a discount.
And I think that I'd be doing pretty much the same things I do today,
but it's just like it's changing a frame of reference
to where is Bitcoin something in the cycle and can i make
money on it going up and down and whatnot no long term it's like owning land they're not making any
more of it and so i feel like my views on it have matured as like learn more but uh you know there's
there's room for for all the other things we can do, just as there is in life.
Outside of currency is almost everything.
We just use the currency to keep track of it.
And I think that's something to keep in mind as we look at why are we bothering to look at startups and invest in new things.
Well, that's all because there's going to be more to tomorrow than just all of us having Bitcoin and sitting around saying, oh, joy, we have Bitcoin.
I don't think we're ever going to get to such an advantage over the people that haven't owned it thus far.
Although, you know, good thing I got in when I did.
But I think it's still a good time.
It's still early days.
So does and does stablecoin change this does it make it so crypto becomes uh a uh
less uh frantic frantic market um i mean it adds liquidity to the system which should i i helps
with like we were talking about arbitrage i suppose and things like that so i i assume it has a
dampening effect maybe but we also we have here guys, a privilege to have Michael Turpin just jumped on stage
and Albert from Bitcoin Startup Labs just jumped on stage.
I'll catch you guys up real quick.
So we're a little over two hours in.
We talked about the history of stable coins.
We talked about the current bill uh the future and
innovation does this do these bills that they're discussing right now uh do they do they stop
innovation by putting certain parameters on stable coins it's it's unclear of whether they
may block things like algorithmic stable coins things like athena goldback stable coins, things like Athena, gold-backed stable coins, it's all unclear. Does this stop
innovation or is it, I mean, I think it's generally a good thing, but it is definitely the US
making a play on, hey, we want to kind of co-op the stable coin market to become just a wrapped
version of the dollar system to push dollars out to the world, which is amazing, by the way. I mean,
we had a call, actually, I had a call with Warren and a team yesterday that are doing, basically making
it so that all the different currencies in Africa can, all these mobile, that are made on these
mobile devices, making stable coins so that you could actually exchange these more freely and
create less friction for commerce there. It was interesting
to see there was like, um, Emirates, the, um, the, the airplane, the flight, the flight company,
um, was actually pulling out of the, one of the countries in Africa, even though it was one of
their best, most profitable routes, they were pulling out because they were having so
much trouble removing dollars from that country. And so if you use stable coins, clearly it can
make a lot of, you remove a lot of friction around the world. But so there's a little recap on what
we've been talking about. Michael, I know you've been around a long time. You worked on Tether in
ways with PR and other things. I'm curiousious what your opinion on all of this is.
Yeah, hi.
Yes, I did indeed work with the founding team of Tether
to launch it back in, gosh, 10 years ago.
And back then it was, you know,
excuse me, Brock Pierce and Reeve Collins and Craig Sellers put together this concept that they could make money by having something that was backed by U.S. dollars in a bank account and make money on the interest.
I don't think they had any idea that 10 years later was going to be a $150 billion asset.
They probably wouldn't have sold it so early. any idea that 10 years later was going to be $150 billion asset.
They probably wouldn't have sold it so early.
But yeah, I actually just woke up a little bit ago because I flew in early this morning
with not much sleep from the DC Blockchain Summit.
So take a little nap here.
And, you know, the gents from World Liberty were on stage with Charles Hoskinson, you
know, talking about the stable coin and talking about what they had planned with DJT Jr.
So it was a pretty remarkable conference, something you wouldn't just, couldn't even
conceive of a year ago in the height of, you know, sort of the Biden war on crypto.
And, you know, Michael Saylor was there on the same stage with Cynthia Lummis talking about, you know, she basically called Michael her hero and was honored to be on the same stage with him.
and was honored to be on the same stage with him.
And, you know, I mean, this stuff is happening in terms of, you know,
we are getting a reserve currency.
I'm sorry, a Bitcoin reserve for the country.
It's just a matter of, like, how it's purchased without having an impact on taxes.
Relative to stablecoins, I would say, you know, in addition to, you know,
what World Liberty announced, this is all a good thing.
Even without the legislation, we're up something like 800% in the usage of stablecoins.
President Trump, unlike his predecessor—
In what time period?
One year, 800%.
Wow.
Wow. Yeah, one year. Probably do that at least this year. And so, you know, unlike his predecessor, you know, President Trump is recognizing that, you know, this is a good thing for the United States to be able to export dollars to the rest of the world.
Yeah, one year.
And we'll probably do that at least this year.
as opposed to, you know, President Biden basically saw this as a bad thing because he wanted everything to go through the banks.
And the banks are dying, right?
I mean, the banks are a systemic risk to the United States and to the world.
They're really kind of, you know, you talk about algorithmic stable coins being unsustainable.
Well, here we have something where, you know, banks are able to, like, just make up money out of thin air.
You know, they talk about crypto making it out of thin air. And they basically have,
you know, they only have to have, you know, five cents of assets to print a dollar. And,
you know, if you look at the FDIC, the insurance that we all talk about having protection on our bank accounts, I think a couple hundred million dollars of insurance for,
or rather a couple billion dollars of insurance
for something like $32 trillion of bank accounts.
I mean, if there was a run on the bank, it's gone.
There's just no way that we could cover everything
unless we literally double the debt,
and the debt right now is costing us more than any other line item in the budget, defense,
Medicare, anything, just to pay the interest on.
And so that's really where I think stable coins are necessary.
And these little rounding errors, we know, will include gold stablecoins,
it's going to include algorithmic, it's something like Athena going to be there.
It's irrelevant.
It's still going to increase the global trust and adoption of stablecoins, and it does that.
It will also open the door for adoption of Bitcoin, because once you have a wallet
and a wallet linked to your bank account, Caitlin Long was one of the main speakers yesterday,
and her custodia bank, you know, was founded on the premise that you can go in,
and they do have a license in Wyoming, and you can use it in any state.
She's simply suing the Fed to get access to a Fed window to be able to access the Fed like any other bank.
And they're saying because she's backing dollars, because she's not doing the fractional banking, she's actually backing one-to-one, that somehow that's dangerous.
It's so bizarre, even though she's backing with U.S. dollars.
It's a bizarre thing.
Well, you've got to remember, it's because she was also going to be letting people move stablecoins back and forth into their bank account, which is once you learn what stablecoins are.
And Bitcoin.
And Bitcoin, that's correct and um the repeal of sab 121 is a huge thing so that was something that you literally they talked about this uh at the uh at the uh one day conference
which was well attended there's over a thousand people there really high and proud i've never
seen more crypto lawyers in my life in one room um But, you know, just who's who. They had 25 Congress people there. They had both Tim Scott, the head of the
House, sorry, the Senate Finance Committee on the same stage with French Hill, who I had a
long meeting with earlier this year, who's the head of the House, you know,
finance committee, really, you know, pretty much agreement in saying that they had bipartisan
support even before the election of Donald Trump to be able to, you know, get a crypto
regulation and to also defeat this SAB 121 that then Biden overruled and basically said it was going to become law,
SAB 121 was an accounting rule that basically said that if you are putting custody of Bitcoin on your balance sheet,
not only can you not count it as an asset, you have to count it as a liability.
So if you have $100,000 of Bitcoin, you have to back it with $100, if you have a hundred thousand dollars of bitcoin you have to back it with a hundred thousand in cash i guess the supposition so ridiculous
it's going to go to zero and you're going to get sued for the hundred thousand that's basically the
supposition and so nobody can touch it and now that is done that is repealed uh that was one of
the very earliest of the executive orders that uh uh you know d, executed. And I think that there's so many
things lining up right now to have this perfect storm where stable coins, I mean, I look forward
certainly because, I mean, right now, if I want to go and, you know, do a wire transfer from my bank from, you know, someone that only accepts wire transfers or, you know, other forms of bank payment.
And I want to go and say, you know, sell some cryptocurrency or just move stable coins that I've got, you know, staked and earning a higher interest, a higher interest from my wallet to my bank, I have
to go and actually sell them on an exchange, $4, get those dollars, then wire it into my
account, and nobody will wire it to a third party because that would be enabling terrorism
or something, even if it's another bank.
So then you have to have it wired to you, and then you have to have a second wire charge to wire it to wherever you're wiring it to.
Under, you know, the system that Caitlin Long proposes as custodia, I can simply go in, have my, you know, self-custodied ledger or treasurer or other, you know, self-custodied wallet.
KYC once, this is my wallet. Here's me, hey, I'm waving at you.
I sign it, show it's me and not, like, you know, some terrorist
or foreign government or North Korea or whatever.
Once I've identified myself once, that's it.
I can move whatever I want in and out of my own bank account
without being, you know, considered some risk to society.
That saves so many fees, so much time.
I could simply, if that same bill, I go, oh, I have to go and wire $30,000 to someone for
something.
Great.
I moved $30,000 in stable coin from my wallet.
I've already paid taxes on it or whatever way I receive this.
It's in my wallet.
It's mine.
I possess it.
It's just like moving it from – it'll be easier than moving it from, say, JPMorgan to Wells Fargo.
It'll just be instant, and then I will move my stable coins with, I'm sure, very low conversion costs at a bank like Custodia, into Custodia, and then they wire it anywhere.
So that's a game changer.
People will choose to, once they learn this, they'll choose to keep their wealth in DeFi.
And that'll be the beginning of just, you know, this brave new crypto world.
Well, I imagine, Michael, you know, on that.
Michael, you know, on that. So with Coinbase, because they have a relationship with Circle,
if you withdraw your USDC to Coinbase, you'd pay no fee to cash it out. Zero slippage,
zero fees, cash it out, send it to your bank, nothing, no fee at all. I imagine now we're
hearing, you know, some of these other banks probably will start their own stable coins,
kind of like PayPal did.
And I imagine they'll have similar things.
If you withdraw your stablecoin to our bank, we don't charge you a fee.
Yeah, now there, of course, you still end up having the double withdrawal.
Here you're just simply moving it over from your own wall to your own account.
Yeah. But let's start.
And this is the direction things are going.
We now have a majority in Congress.
Well, I will let everybody wrap up the conversation now that it's been going on for two hours and 20 minutes.
And, you know, that's the report from D.C. And actually, I'm back in Puerto Rico now.
Michael, do you have any opinion before you go on Trump and World Liberty Fi potentially
launching this USD1 stable coin?
Any thoughts?
Well, look, World Liberty has made it very clear they want to be a player in the lending
and borrowing and DeFi markets.
I mean, they already have kind of their Aave competitor
that they raised money for a while ago.
And so if they're approved like anybody else,
then I think the more the merrier in terms of competition
in the stablecoin space.
I want to have a choice besides just Tether and Circle.
And if Tether is you know, is not
approved, like it's not approved in Europe, then I don't want to have Circle be my only choice.
Yeah, really good point. I wonder about... You do have USDP, which I'm sure will be approved.
That's Paxos. That's the one that, you know, backs PayPal. Yeah, I do have concerns about conflicts of interest with the president
having a vested interest in a company that's issuing a stable coin, but we'll see how it
all plays out. Hopefully he doesn't do anything too crazy with that. But yeah, generally,
I think it's a very positive thing. I was going to say also, you know,
Reeve Collins, who I'd mentioned before that I'd worked with at Tether, he now is partnered with a new stable coin that I'm also going to be working with out of Dubai.
There's looking to be approved everywhere.
It's called USP, where the interest of the stable coin, instead of going to the pockets of Tether or to the investors in Circle, goes to the users.
And so that's a big sea change.
They're just wrapping up their final funding round and getting ready to launch the market.
But it's called USP, and it's then going to have a USI, which is the interest that you get on it.
And then USPI will be the governance token.
And it's a really innovative model.
What is this one called?
It's called USP.
What's the name of the project?
I'll look it up.
Let me see.
It's called PI Protocol, PI.
Not to be confused with the PI tokens.
Hasn't launched yet,
but you hear this alpha from me first.
Interesting. If Michael gives you alpha,
you listen, guys. All right. Well, we have Albert here too. Michael, if you have to run,
we appreciate you dropping by. Always a pleasure and an honor. We also have Albert. I just had a
long call with Albert earlier today. Um, Albert,
we were getting ready to wrap up like 20 minutes ago, but if you want to say hi, I appreciate you
dropping by. Yeah, no. Hi everyone. Uh, sorry for showing up late. Uh, I need to put this in my
calendar. What, what is it like?m. Eastern time normally? Yeah. Okay.
All right.
Oh, by the way, guys, so Albert and I were discussing,
and we're going to start – this is good for all of BitAngels to know and all the audience, but we're going to start coordinating a little more
on spaces with Bitcoin Startup Labs where we'll be supporting their space.
I speak on that regularly, but we'll be supporting and helping with speakers
and sending our audience over to their spaces,
and they're going to be doing the same for us moving forward
so we can grow both spaces.
We'll also be doing that for the spaces moving forward.
There's certainly enough demand for it.
I think we've got people that would stay on with us for 10 hours.
Well said, Warren.
Well said, well said.
We're replacing with other people.
It's interesting.
The number of people currently on doesn't change very much over the time we're on.
But we know the longer it is, the larger the audience.
And we can look at how many people listen live or the recording.
And that number is always quite high.
So, yeah.
We can give some shout-outs, by the way.
Let's see.
I see a lot of people who are in for the whole time.
We'll give some shout-outs.
Oh, I see Elise requested again, bringing you back up, Elise.
We lost you, I guess.
Let's see.
So we've had...
Adele's been on the whole time of the panel.
Anthem has been on the whole time.
Amber's been on the whole time behind
the handle there. Appreciate
you, Amber. Let's see.
Elise was on, but looks
like got rugged or something, maybe.
But we also...
I'm back. I know I've been
rugged three times today, so.
Yeah, me too.
We'll be here.
We've got, let's see, oh, Heart of Chain.
I'm going to shout out some audience members in a bit and read some comments, and then we'll log out here, guys.
But Heart of Chain, did you have something you wanted to say?
Yeah, thank you very much for the opportunity.
I've been waiting here for lunch, you know, to communicate.
Yeah, I see the topic and it's actually debatable and interesting.
SebuCon actually has a lot of effect on the fact, but I'm not actually here for that.
I don't know if anybody has actually checked the page.
You can see that this is a charity foundation that is
focused on helping life. So you have got a program coming up and we actually need a way to fund the
program. And we feel like going on spaces and seeking for assistance, we'd be perfect to do that.
You can actually go to our page and you'll see a lot of amazing stuff that we have done
and some through our own personal pocket and support from people so we are here on this
space and uh knowing that we have a whole lot of people who have good interest in
open life and you know supporting people so we actually have to you know seek assistance and uh
So we actually have to seek assistance and probably we can be able to help some people through it.
We have actually been focused on education basically in Africa and we see that there's a lot of out-of-school students.
And not taking care of this may actually cause problems to our society and which taking care of this may
improve in many ways and uh not long after our last program that we did if you go to our page
you will see it there we discovered that we have a lot of talented tech guy in Africa and that we
are willing to support them so we hey heart i'm gonna pause your your uh your semi-chill here
uh i appreciate the effort though
but um i have a question for you uh what country are you in i'm in nigeria currently like we are in
nigeria currently and i'm curious do you guys do you see stablecoin usage in your country
not really not really interesting no that's impossible, dude.
I don't believe you.
There's got to be stablecoin.
I've interviewed so many applicants
around Nigeria.
The only stablecoin people generally use
is probably USDT.
And Nigeria is not crypto-based
like really serious like that.
I need you to reach out to heart of change i need you to reach out to tony evans um he's one of our he represents us he's not
technically a city leader but he works quite a bit with bid angels and i have a project with him study
he's from wealth management and him and um his best friend do a lot out of Africa
and they've got several stable coins out of there.
So definitely I want you guys to connect.
You can just take my work cell phone number.
It's 316-587-7355.
I'll write it down for you, send it to you
and you can contact me on WhatsApp
you can join our WhatsApp
groups for BitAngels if you guys want
because all the cities have set up
in there and you guys can mingle
and talk about how you can support each other
Can you please
Can you call the number again?
1316 587-7-7-3-5-5.
And you guys can all write that down.
That's my work cell phone number.
You can access me on WhatsApp or Signal anytime.
Okay.
So in case anyone is actually willing to support, our DM is open for projects, proposal, whatever, in case you actually willing to support our jam is open for uh project proposal whatever
in case you are willing to support us thank you very much for the opportunity i appreciate it
yeah thank you that's what we're here for and you know we want to connect founders to funders
that's the second request we've had from nigeria during this call and and I'm sure there's more listening. By the way, I just looked it up.
For the 12 months ending July
2024, stablecoin
transaction volume in Nigeria
had dropped
to only $23.6 billion.
So there's
still a...
You said only $26.3 billion?
$23.6
to be exact.
And that was a 38% drop drop it was higher before that don't know
why i'm only you know i just looked that number up uh but uh yeah it was the reason why i dropped
is probably they only track a few different stable coins and they move their money to a
different stable coin because that might be volatile it's still volatile it's impossible not to hold usd
over there well the other thing is with uh yeah with uh with uh exchange rates changing all the
time if it's delineated in dollars you get less less dollars than you used to uh but yeah it
it seems like definitely it's there and uh nigeria leads the continent of africa uh and there's there's a
lot more coming an area of interest for me i don't pretend to be an expert in it but uh something
we're advising one company on over there so i just thought i'd throw that that little bit in
and also uh some interest in having uh there are apparently people in Lagos who would like to meet and perhaps have a chapter of
BitAngels. Elise has already given out her number and I have
recommended people contact her
because I'm sure if we get a city leader there, I'm sure we're going to have
a good crowd of people that are interested in joining you.
Great. So so did we have
somebody else that hasn't spoke I don't see at least do you have more to more to say no I'm good
I'll see all of you at the Vegas crypto meetup tonight at 6 p.m warren's gonna be you may not see all of us but you'll definitely
see me and the others here in vegas no one no one would use it if they knew about it we actually
have the um the event pinned up at the top of the post here it's actually the the second one
it's got the luma uh at the very top pin post right let us know if you can make it uh and let us know if you can't
make it uh if you're interested in coming if when you're in vegas well we need to know about this
same with any of these meetings uh i don't recommend it can't recommend register for
something if you're not going except for the spaces uh if you have any idea that you might be available on a Thursday afternoon,
please click on the reminder button
when you see the purple box here on BitAngels.
If you do that, that helps us get more attention for it
and also reminds you to attend.
We don't get any kind, we don't take attendance
and find out whether or not you come.
On live events, a little bit different.
People are planning for space and for food.
We want to know if you're pretty sure you're going to make it.
But even if you're not going to be able to make it, communicate with us.
Let us know what your interest is.
Maybe that we're holding a meeting on a different day of the week than would be good for you. And there may be more of you than there are of us. So we're very flexible on those kinds of things. Keep in
contact. Another reminder for everybody to follow the speakers and the participants.
Follow everybody. This is a community. There's very few bots on our on our spaces good people especially verified
that means it's somebody who is is active and paying for their account you know those are good
people to connect with and uh and grow your own network for uh whether or not you're looking for
funding or looking for investments this is the network to belong to, BitAngels.network to join,
be a part of the network
and see our calendar.
BitAngels.network always has
a calendar of upcoming events.
And of course, we have Tokenize
coming up at the end of May
during, it'll be Tokenize Global
held the same week as,
it's the 29th through 31st of May,
the same week as Bitcoin 2025.
And Albert, do you want to talk about your event?
Because I talked about your event today
and we're going, we're doing it.
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
It's become our event,
like Elise, our event with BitAngels, Bitcoin AI, Startup Lab,
and some other groups that we'll be revealing very soon.
It's on May 29th.
It's going to be at the David Copperfield Mansion.
So, you know, good company.
Historically speaking, every time we do a Bitcoin investor and founder event, we have the highest concentration of investors and founders.
And that's definitely true now that we're collaborating with BitAngels and Elise and Rock and Warren and everybody.
So we're going to, you know, we made a good thing even better through this collaboration.
good thing even better through this collaboration you guys sign up right now um for the listeners
You guys sign up right now.
of the show you can sign up for free for limited time with this code 2025 like 2025
btc unicorns all one word okay uh 2025 btc unicorns bypass the uh the door fee um you know
it is curated so make sure you're uh aspiring founder or a founder or innovator or creator or an investor.
Okay.
Probably won't be fun if you're outside of that, but if that fits you, then welcome.
You can find that by clicking on the orange picture here of Albert and the gold guy on the orange background.
And you can send him a DM if you've missed that code,
something else.
Otherwise, we'll see you there.
We'll see everybody in Vegas at the end of May.
Going to be the biggest event of the year.
Also, Warren.
Yeah, it's going to be massive.
And hopefully it marks the inflection point of this sideways market.
By the way, about the Bitcoin conference,
I've actually been talking to the Bitcoin conference hosts,
like the Bitcoin media guys.
And they actually want,
we've been talking about doing a series of shows and stuff like that,
so I'm going to invite them here
onto the BitAngels show.
Hopefully, I'm thinking maybe like the week before
the actual event,
so that way we can maybe have the guys
from the conference come here and talk.
Yeah, have them come sooner
because we want to be talking to them.
People need to make travel plans.
So anything we can do to enhance the number of people
that are planning the trip for that last week in May,
all good.
So I'd love to hear from them.
Great.
I believe that's everything we got.
Rock's mic is closed.
So I'll say goodbye to everybody
unless he opens his mic.
We'll be done. This has
been the BitAngels Faces every
Thursday, 1 p.m. Pacific
time. Find out more
about us at BitAngels or
BitAngels.network.com.
We'll see you all next week.
Thank you. Bye, everybody. Much love. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye, everybody.
Thank you. Bye-bye.
Bye.
See you soon.
Have a great event tonight.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Thank you.
