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Stacks DeFi Show #80
Recorded: Aug. 26, 2025 Duration: 0:54:09Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you
hey GM GM I know we're gonna get started here in a second um If you don't mind, just go ahead and tweet out the space.
Let's get some more people coming in here and we'll get this started here shortly. Thank you. Hey everyone, we're gonna start in a few minutes.
Can you all hear me?
Maybe just mic check if you can hear me maybe.
Perfect. you
okay i think we can get started as a few people are gonna be out because our big cone Asia in Hong Kong and
Maybe as usual we can start with some quick introduction. We have Jack and Dylan here So maybe Jack you can get started then he landed on me
Yeah, um
G. I'm always always happy to be here hanging out with you chads
I'm Jack. I'm in a sex ecosystem for a long can
you hear me not hear you I can't even hear Dylan so it's me the issue let me
jump back in Thank you. maybe while we're here waiting i can go ahead and do an intro uh hey everybody i'm dylan from
bitfloat uh we're building a decentralized exchange on stacks um all sorts of different
kinds of info there um we got uni v2s We have curved stable swabs.
We have variable midpoints for liquid staking tokens.
And we are working on concentrated liquidity infrastructure as well.
Yeah.
Maybe, Jack, do you want to go next?
How are you doing, brother?
I'm being told that I need to monologue.
I think some people's voices are being read.
Can you hear me now?
We got someone.
Can you hear me now?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Okay.
Sorry for it.
Just usual Twitter space stuff.
I see also Bla Blaze is in here.
So maybe we can bring him in.
But yeah, didn't want to drop you, Dylan.
I've already seen something.
Well, no, I was about to just start reading the whole Bitcoin white paper to stall for time
until everybody can get up here with their mics working.
Good, good.
So glad we saw this issue.
Where is Blaze and where is Jack soon?
So as I was saying,
maybe Blaze, you can start with a quick introduction.
We'll just start with a quick introduction.
Maybe I can start myself really quickly.
And first of all,
it's important to mention that
everything that has been discussed here
is not financial advice.
And we're here to learn together about stocks. And by myself, I'm the advisor. If you check
my Twitter account, I create content, educational content about Bitcoin, stocks, and DeFi. And I
actively work in the stocks ecosystem, mainly with Zest and Stackdown with marketing activities.
I will let you go next, Blaze.
All right.
Good morning, folks, to everybody for whom it is morning.
My name is Blaze.
I am a general manager at Trust Machines building Granite Lending.
Granite is a one-of-a-kind lending protocol which is bitcoin collateralized lending
and borrowing focused on risk minimization and security so we do everything we can
to give our borrowers and our lenders the tools they need to mitigate the risks you find in d5
i will pass it off to the next person. Nice.
Dylan, do you want to go again just through
as we're doing the...
Yeah, sure.
I'll do it more concisely this time.
I'm Dylan from Bitflow,
and we are expanding Bitcoin markets
with different infrastructure for trading and earning.
Nice.
I'm not sure Jack can talk. Oh, let's try. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes.
Yeah, I talk a lot and Elon apparently has a problem with it some days. GM, everybody. I'm
here on behalf of Hermetica. USDH is the first first bitcoin back stable it's a yield bearing bitcoin back stable
by the way apy today is uh was up to 14 last time i looked um high of 22 in july you know so yeah um
always a pleasure to be here with you chad nice and maybe we can dig into what news or like what recaps you have from the last week.
We also do this where each protocol maybe shares.
Is there anything new they want to tell to the public?
Maybe Jack, you want to go first.
Is there anything new that you should know about Hermetica?
Something you want to tease?
you want to tease well you know her medic is cooking um we we're gonna have some vaults here
Well, you know, Hermetica is cooking.
shortly that are gonna allow people to earn yield on their bitcoin with one click right here on
stacks so you know when you talk about where the space is headed um you know abstraction making
things more user friendly taking away the complexity,
cutting down a learning curve. All of these things are very important, right? The onboarding
experience of future crypto users are going to be much different than it was for us.
So be on the lookout for those vaults. That's probably the biggest news. This is, you know, again, I mean, just an absolute...
It's a cook.
Let's put it that way.
Like, if three years ago, someone had told me that on Stacks, I could earn Bitcoin yield on my Bitcoin with just one click,
not even have to go through all of these three or four different decks is and this protocol and that protocol and
Nope, just one click. I wouldn't believe you. So
Yeah, be on the lookout for that. That's gonna be very cool
nice nice and
I cannot I cannot wait for what their medical is cooking because I know jacob is really like an amazing d5 founder
and we talked multiple times you know about some teasing that we've seen maybe like a post
from jaco btc vaults like you stitch pink btc yield so i'm sure it's gonna be something really
exciting and maybe blaze like do you want to share something more about Granite?
We haven't, haven't you seen the show for some time?
So I'm sure you have some exciting news.
Oh, yeah.
I always try to attend, but this is literally the first thing after I wake up in the morning.
And so sometimes I'm just too tired and without coffee to try to make any sense.
It's been a big week on the Granite side, and we have some exciting announcements
coming up. Probably the biggest thing recently is that the team refactored, it's kind of on the
back end, but the team refactored the Pith price feed. So we use Pith as an oracle, and so does
Zest. And the Granite team is responsible for maintaining Pith.
And we refactored it to use 34 times less runtime
than it did before, which means that it's
going to be significantly cheaper and more reliable
for all users across the Stacks ecosystem.
So that was live as of last week.
It was a little detour that we needed
to take from our normal scheduled feature development.
And the next thing that we are back jamming on right now and in what is hopefully one of the final days of testing is our points program,
which is scheduled to launch imminently.
I'm super excited to push that out. We've got a lot of fun ways for users to come in and engage with the protocol and earn meaningful points for contributing capital and sticking around granted and becoming
a long-term user. So that's the really big announcement. Well, I'll say announcement of
an announcement because it hasn't quite happened yet. So expect that coming up the next couple of
weeks, depending on how testing goes. And then after that, we've
got a couple of things cooking that are like done and in audit that are going to be dependent on
what some of the other teams in the ecosystem are building and launching over the next few months.
So I'm going to be intentionally vague there. Let's say they're going to be pretty exciting
and it's features that I really want to use myself so I'm just waiting for them to get launched more I
why don't I pass this back I cannot tap maybe Dylan on the shoulder next am I
getting tapped on the shoulder because we're like building some stuff that
you're waiting for oh no I just saw you in the top row of my chat here.
Cool.
Yes, I guess recently we just did an AMA with the community and kind of went over how things have been so far this year
and what they're going to look like the rest of the year,
maybe going into Q1 as well.
So we've seen pretty solid trading volume.
I think it's peanuts compared to where we'd like to be.
But yeah, the trading volume is growing.
The revenue is growing.
I think we're just past 50k followers on Twitter as well.
25k on Discord and 70k on Zeely.
So happy with how things are going there we we also recently announced the hodl mn uh for the assets that you want to haul uh it's a way for us to
to you know to build out more of these bitcoin capital markets with the assets that you you
want to hold long term and um you And we have this thesis that market makers,
you don't want to walk into their offices and say,
hey, look, you guys would be making way more money
if you just would market make with BTC, right?
You kind of get laughed out of the room.
But working to put together a more credible thesis
to onboard more on-chain market makers there
and describe like
the tools that uh and lay out like a path forward where you know maybe when tokens are ripping you
know and when tokens are sideways you might uh want to be market making them against btc and if
tokens are kind of tanking you might want to be market making them against usdc So, yeah. We're about to hand over
the smart contracts
for that over to
the auditing firm.
And I think we'll have
a beta playground
environment up pretty soon for you, where you can
mess around with some dummy tokens and check out
what concentrated liquidity looks like.
That's fun.
I got two things to say.
First of all, to Blaze's point,
look, dude, I'm living in the future with instant coffee.
I don't know where this stuff's been all my life,
but it makes it so much easier to just get that little teaspoon of coffee
and that hot water and you're
just good to go. Second of all, you said something very profound about there's something you just
can't wait to use. That's like your key, right? And Dylan, dude, I cannot wait to like use these
concentrated liquidity pools for Bitflow. If you had to ask me right now what the most bullish
thing in a Stacks ecosystem is, it's that right there.
It's these liquidity pools coming to Bitflow.
We all need to understand how this works.
We all need to be using them.
We need to be testing them.
And we need to be telling people because most people still aren't there.
They haven't really played with a concentrated liquidity pool.
So what is that?
That's alpha. That's edge. so pay very close attention to this this is uh yeah this is exciting yeah
yeah me too like for anyone that's used units from v3 in the past or like we've seen the jump
from the v2 we know how constitutive liquidity can be really powerful.
And also regarding Blaze, I know we didn't touch upon it,
but like point systems are like,
have been a big driver now for community engagement
and liquidity as a provision.
So that's the course to see, you know,
the impact of it once it goes live.
Oh yeah. And I second what Jack said,
that I think probably the most bullish thing
for Stacks over the next month is a month or two,
until they launch this HODL AMM is the HODL AMM,
because it's tough to get liquidity into DEXs,
and we kind of forget that when Uniswap launched,
what was it, four or five
years ago now, there was really high slippage because that's just how that model works.
And they had to build concentrated liquidity before it got to really tight quotes like it
is today. And so this is going to be, I think, really impactful to bringing stacks forward and
bringing stacks forward and like enabling a lot of the protocols in the
enabling a lot of the protocols in the ecosystem. So I'm super excited for it.
ecosystem. So I'm super excited for it.
I have one question maybe for Dylan and then correct me if I'm wrong,
Dylan, but if I remember correctly,
the concept of liquidity requires a bit more active management of the
liquidity position that you provide.
And I feel like there's been multiple solutions for Uniswap to simplify that.
And I guess my question is, will BIFO work for something like that for its users?
Or is it going to be, or maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't require that active management of liquidity positions?
What was the, if we're going to offer something, what was it that you asked?
or something like, what was it that you asked?
Yeah, like I remember that usually,
as I was saying, like constitutive liquidity
usually requires, let's say,
active management of the ranges.
And in the past, I remember I've seen like solution
where they automatically rebalance
the liquidity provision of constitutive liquidity
or something like that.
I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly,
I saw something like this in the past
where basically very solutions that automatically rebalances the where you provide liquidity for concentrated liquidity.
Yeah, no, you're 100% right that it requires more active management, especially for this, you know, not all concentrated liquidity infrastructure is built the same.
This is more like an order book style AMM.
So it enables you, like there's different,
there's a bunch of different bins in each liquidity pool.
And like a bin corresponds to a specific price point.
And inside of that bin, there's zero slippage,
which is really nice um
and the one of the the key factors is like the the distance between the bins right the distance
between the prices are you going to allow uh say for bitcoin like prices of you know 100k 105k 110k
like prices of 100k, 105k, 110k, etc.
Or maybe like 100k, 101k, 102k, 103k, and on and on.
And that can be even more granular down to the number of basis points.
So providing liquidity over that is easy.
It's much easier for machines to ingest that data
and make decisions than it is for our regular feeble human brains.
But especially if you're market making with BTC,
it's difficult to figure out,
okay, what is the price of this asset in Bitcoin?
That's a lot of decimals.
It hurts my head, right?
So we make it easy with this design to view a couple of things
to make your decision easier.
One is the volatility of the asset compared to Bitcoin over time.
So you're looking at this price chart, right?
And it almost doesn't really matter what the numbers are, right?
You're just looking at the trend and you're saying, okay, if I set an upper limit here
and a lower limit here just by dragging and dropping, then yeah, I'll capture a good bit
of volatility.
And then the second thing that you might want to consider is, okay, well, sure, that's the volatility, but where does everybody else have liquidity?
Kind of like some social proof for where other folks are market making, or maybe where they're not market making, right?
And that can be an opportunity for you if you think markets are going to move one way or another, or if you have a specific strategy.
I think from day one,
we're not going to have the automatic liquidity re-centering for you.
It's possible that some of the initial liquidity for some key pairs
might need to be from on, you know, like on-chain market making deals
to bootstrap like the pairs that we care about the most, you know, like SBTC stacks, for example.
But yeah, I think those tools would be really helpful for anybody on day one to be, to go and
visualize like, okay, my position is here. Um, you know, the price has changed now.
Like I actually have more Bitcoin because the price went down or I have a little bit
less because the price went up.
Right.
Um, like in, in these, in these different bins.
So, um, they're like, uh, I think there's protocols on top of aerodrome that help
you automate the liquidity provision.
I think one of the challenges that we want to just make sure
that we have rock solid is like,
well, certainly all the data analytics,
but then like the ability to capture someone's intent,
you know, for where they're trying to provide liquidity.
And then like, what should the triggers be
for like recentering it somewhere?
So that I think requires a little bit more research,
but we want to make the API very,
very digestible and easy to use for machines and the UX easy to manually manage for people.
Yeah, I guess as easy as possible, right? Like removing those barriers about thinking
in terms of a bunch of different decimal points and thinking more in terms of shapes.
decimal points and thinking more in terms of shapes.
You know, I think what's really cool here is if you have the opportunity to say to the
world, hey, we have a SPTC USCH or a SPTC STX liquidity opportunity here in Stacks that's got an APR of 1,000 or 500.
Because you really can see this kind of thing happen with these concentrated pools.
Now, granted, that's looking at it.
Is that necessarily a smart thing to do?
Are you going to be able to benefit from that
unless you really do your homework
or have tools that allow you to figure out how to do this?
But from a marketing standpoint,
it's true and it's doable.
And then you'll have even crazier APYs
with other assets, right?
Like if you allow this to happen with meme tokens and this,
that, and the other. And at the end of the day, that's what drives attention. That's what brings
people into ecosystems. So to be able to get this information out there, right? Because A,
this is fun. And this is like an actual real, you can incorporate this into a strategy that can be quite successful for you.
And yeah, like there's opportunities here in Stacks to have ancillary things that help you do this better.
So we need builders to like focus on, hey, how do we do this?
So then we wind up in a situation where we have real world assets
and these new liquidity pools and these concentrated positions and they're paired
against SBTC and this, that, and the other. This is massive. It's absolutely massive. And we have
to embrace this and we have to direct our attention on making it as easy as possible for people
outside the Stacks ecosystem to understand these things because this will draw
attention this will bring people in that is a winning narrative um and it's it's it's going to
be a lot of fun and i'm very excited to see it happen here this is again like we're we're ahead
of the curve on this one so bitflow just outstanding job man i'd like to if we could advisor maybe go
around and see if people have like a wish list of tokens they'd like to see in this type of infrastructure.
Sure. Maybe we can comment it here on the post OTT space.
Oh, yeah. I'm sure we've got a nice tweet lined up somewhere I can pin up there.
lined up somewhere i can pin up there um yeah but yeah i think uh maybe it's it also kind of goes
into this topic of with more you know uh bridge integrations you know coming to stacks and to
other chains you know should we be building up liquidity uh here should we be building up
liquidity you know for like sbtc on on other chains as. I think personally I fall more in the boat
of building up some markets here on,
you know, in the Stax ecosystem.
More trading, more borrowing,
lending can happen here.
With, you know, SBTC as like the premier asset,
but yeah, I guess some items on the wishlist
for me would be like different flavors of Bitcoin,
like maybe CBBTC or WBTC.
Obviously, like a tier one stable coin as well.
But yeah, I think it'd be nice to go around and see if there's anything.
I think that's all, you know, hopefully very achievable, maybe in the near term.
But yeah, Jack, what are are you what's on your wish list
man look here's here's what excites me with sbtc going to other chains i want to see sbtc pairs
with with native solana tokens for instance i want to see like hardcore you know someone might be a in a community on solana and they compare their
token with sptc and then they can come to stacks and we can have their token here and we can bring
that community here um i i you know i i know people are thinking about the serious financial
stuff and that's great i'm always going to go to the dgen stuff first because the serious financial stuff, and that's great. I'm always going to go to the DGEN stuff first because the DGEN stuff is what builds this space in the first place.
That liquidity is what brings people into the market and into the innovation.
So I think, I don't know, I think there's a lot of cross-chain capabilities that get opened up with SBDC on other chains.
And I think that's ways to migrate other communities here over to Stacks, right?
I think we can offer better,
we can offer better, you know,
well, a better community for one,
but ancillary services within the community
and then actual like incentives,
like monetary incentives
through our different exchanges and so forth,
bring people here, see the formation of like multi-asset liquidity pools, like the sky's
the limit here.
Like it's just a matter of delivering, right?
And it's just a matter of focusing and yeah.
So I think really I'd love to see the meme coins.
I understand like the Bitcoin plays and everything, but I want to see the meme coins. I understand the Bitcoin plays and everything,
but I want to see the lower barrier of entry stuff, right?
I want everyone to be able to come here easily
and see what this place is about.
Maybe talking about SBTC, Solana,
one news that just came out is that there's this non-stack listed company
called Meta Alphapha, which basically
they're going to bring some BTC on Solana and via Zeus and basically I think use it
in DeFi.
So for the first time you're seeing, let's say, these companies that accumulate BTC used
on chain.
And I do feel like this is where stocks could shine now because you have
SBTC which is the most plus-minimized BTC solution out there and then you have like you have
you have granite you have you have Zest you have Hermet, you have Pitfall and this kind of solution which can make it
much easier to earn
let's say higher, I mean
good decent BTC yield
so I do feel like a potential
wish list as you were talking
maybe Dylan to me will be seeing
maybe
sooner or later but this kind of
you know bigger BTC accumulators of whales
starting to bring their BTC on stocks
and use DeFi.
So I do feel like this is going to become a trend
the next year or so,
where it's maybe these treasuries
that we're going to start using their BTC on chain.
And I do feel like stocks
has a really great positioning to be that chain.
Yeah, I agree.
I think being able to put it to work on Granite and Zest or borrow against it, that's one
of the more popular use cases that comes to mind with BTC.
But I think also if we're able to help people get Bitcoin in and out of DeFi, right, from native Bitcoin, you know, to wherever they'd like to use it, having those pools where it's easy to go, native BTC to CBBTC, no KYC, right?
I think that could be pretty attractive here for us to build up more Bitcoin-centric markets.
to build up more Bitcoin-centric markets.
And then, yeah, also with some of the assets
that you just want to pair maybe directly with BTC
because you want a number go up for both assets.
Blaze, I think you've got to jump soon.
So is there, do you want to share your wish list
and any alpha before you go?
Oh man, my wish list is going to be
just every flavor of Bitcoin imaginable, like wrapped
Bitcoins, bring them into stacks. I think we're in a really unique position as an ecosystem,
because we are the only really functional way of getting into and out of a wrapped Bitcoin
with, let's say, like completely permissionlessly. And so that's a big
competitive advantage for us. And you have a bunch of other wrappers, you know, WBTC, you have to go
through one of I think like 2000 licensed merchants to mint it. So like nobody can mint it or redeem
it really. And CDBTC is only available to to coinbase customers and so we could be a really
interesting kind of clearing house for the entire world to come on and off of bitcoin and like get
into these other wrappers on other chains as well um so i think that would be a pretty sick
uh thing to see built out inside of stacks and would bring a lot of value here
nice yeah yeah expanding the markets and then you know meanwhile maybe trying to build up even inside of Stacks and would bring a lot of value here.
Nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Expanding the markets and then, you know, meanwhile, maybe trying to build up even more markets here too.
Yeah.
All right.
So before you go, what's the, you got to give us some alpha.
Those are the terms and conditions you signed up for when you agreed to speak.
Oh, our hot alpha is the points program is, is so close. I mean, you guys know,
everybody who's like building software knows this, right? You think like, okay, we're launching
next week. We're just almost done with testing. And then it's like, you dive into testing,
you discover the last, like 90% in the last 10%. So that's where we are now. We're in the last 1%.
So that means we have what, 9% left 50%? I don't know how that scales.
But we're hammering through the testing
and then we'll be launching it
into the beta group pretty soon.
And so just super excited to get that out there
and get feedback from folks on it.
Nice.
Nice. Congrats.
That's that.
I'm going to jump now,
but lovely talking to you gents thanks blaze for
jumping in and maybe you're saying something i wanted to touch upon it really quickly is you know
like creating like these markets that's called them for like cbbtc and other chains and make
it easy to swap maybe to sbtc and i do feel like i think like a problem is
going to become bigger is the fact that now you have multiple btc assets across chains wbtc
sbtc lbtc whatever and it's not always super easy to swap from a BTC asset to another one,
especially if it requires bridging.
So having these kind of solutions that make it easy for my DEX
to swap between BTC assets will be really, really important.
Because, I mean, I've been seeing BTC5 growing across multiple chains,
chains so it's definitely gonna become a an important aspect to solve yeah i've seen a
so it's definitely going to become an important aspect to solve.
lump uh lombard uh tweet a lot recently about bitcoin capital markets are they maybe on your
wish list of the different wrapped flavors of btc that you would you would want to see here on stacks stacks or what are you so to me like it's more about being able rather than maybe rather than
single stocks to me it's really about taking the the btc assets with the most liquidity so
cbbtc maybe tbtc and make and making sure that that liquidity can easily tap into stocks rather
than having one specific that I want to see.
That's it.
Nice.
Yeah, that makes sense.
With the stable swap infrastructure that we have today is pretty great for that already.
It'll be even better with concentrated liquidity and the reason why is uh essentially like the slippage is pretty low for both um but
the slippage could actually be zero with concentrated liquidity the way that it's designed
with the auto mn um and then uh the like the yield could actually be higher as well because it's not spread out across the entire curve.
It's, quote unquote, concentrated for the prices where you might want to market make between different flavors of BTC.
So we could offer a higher yield on Bitcoin stable spots.
That is still very, very low risk because you don't have an impermanent loss if you're
dealing with different flavors of Bitcoin.
I think this is, I really like the idea of different flavors of Bitcoin because I'm thinking
about not just from a Bitflow perspective, but for the whole ecosystem, you know, like
with Zest and with Hermetica, right, they've got a nice strategy that could scale.
If you're borrowing
some
USDH
against your Bitcoin, and then you stake
it, you're earning some yield, maybe
you're converting some of that back into BTC.
That's
a strategy that could be very attractive
to people
holding BTC and other ecosystems.
Or even just this promotional SBTC rewards campaign that's been going on just for bringing your SBTC on-chain.
You might just prefer to get out of WBTC for that reason alone, even if you don't care about the security.
But the ability to get in and out of layer one is still
even much better there too.
I like
this approach and I'm curious
with the bridge integrations, which ones will be the best
to bring it from which chains?
But yeah, I appreciate
the input there on the wish list.
I think
we love the S ecosystem right we but
we don't have enough tokens here yet so we need we need more tokens and more markets more things
that you can borrow against uh more things that you could borrow talking also about more things
I think yesterday Mouniv tweeted that the entity is now, this tax endowment is officially registered and operational, which I think like maybe as a community is that now we should see things related to the endowment accelerate.
things related to the endowment accelerate.
So I think it's going to be
also an exciting few months about where
we're going to see maybe more integration,
more liquidity flowing into the ecosystem.
And everything
has been described with the
endowment is going to start
being delivered.
Yeah, it sounds like
a foot on the gas hopefully here
pretty soon.
There's so many catalysts that we've got the wind at our back
just to have a really, really strong finish for DeFi in this ecosystem
from now to the end of the year and beyond into
2026 as well.
I think it really is just about executing and making sure that, you know, if there's just making sure that all the right pieces come into place at the right time.
So I think like the HODL MM will be super helpful for a lot of different protocols.
having more tokens here,
like maybe a top-tier stablecoin or something.
All this stuff hopefully will be a great catalyst
to make stacks into this top-10 ecosystem or so,
where we've already got a lot of DeFi on-chain,
or we've already got a lot of SBTC on-chain.
Potentially, with some of these incentives we can get it you know put to work um and with some of
these deals that we'd be able to i guess maybe get done as an ecosystem you know like uh more
more efficiently now so super bullish on yeah i guess now through the end of the year um and my
head's been kind of down just focusing on HODL MM lately.
Just want to make sure we can get that out to you guys
quickly.
But yeah, I can't wait. It's the coolest
stuff we've ever built.
It's the best infrastructure, the most robust.
Working with more partners like Signal 21
as well on analytics.
And this is gonna be like it's gonna be just
a 100x improvement on on the trading experience here so cannot wait nice and jack do you have any takes maybe on what Munib said on the post about the endowment being operational?
Yeah, I think the thing that I'm most excited about is the ability to bring more builders and more products into stacks, right?
So like having the endowment unlock all of this capital is very, you know, it's intriguing and it shows opportunity.
And it's an opportunity that this ecosystem has never had before.
So I think that, you know, we'll see more builders come.
I think we'll see more liquidity, you know, come into the ecosystem in a way that we haven't seen it before.
And this brings more users.
This brings even more liquidity.
And this is kind of just the flywheel that this ecosystem needs at, you know, I don't
know if you can ever have a perfect time for anything, but this is a very ideal time because
the Bitcoin L2 meta hasn't hit properly yet.
You've had a lot of hype around it post-ordinals,
and a lot of projects have tried to deliver and they failed,
but Stacks has delivered.
Stacks has been a leader this whole time.
People talk about DeFi on Bitcoin as this thing that's coming,
and here we are are we already have
it and um you know that that was through a lot of grit and determination that we got here and now
we're talking about these next level things like these like like how bitflow is just you know
scaling as a dex and and becoming this this massive powerhouse um we're going to attract more teams, more builders, more people at the right
time. Because for me, for one, for instance, I have not been bullish on Bitcoin treasury companies.
I'm not bullish on paper Bitcoin. It doesn't help the network. It doesn't secure the network. It
doesn't solve any of the scalability issues that Bitcoin has. And I think that fundamentally Bitcoin L2s like Stacks
are going to have a much better solution
for scaling Bitcoin.
That's why I'm here.
And I think that the market's going to catch up
to that reality and the opportunity has never been higher.
So for us to be in this position with the endowment
at this stage in time is very bullish.
So I'm really looking forward to see how that plays out.
Yeah, me too.
Me too.
And maybe one last thing I wanted to discuss,
which maybe goes a bit outside of stocks,
is in the last few days we have been seeing BTC act a bit weird.
Maybe like, you know, it dropped before other tokens and stuff like that
and so some people maybe started questioning you know why is btc maybe showing less strength
and i think it's important to remind that you know btc has been it's it is an all-time high basically
and it's the only token that truly is staying above all-time high,
if you think about it, with respect to the previous cycle.
So, yeah, I'm not sure if you, Dylan, or Jack, have any thoughts about, you know,
what the more of the press action, maybe, you know,
what does it mean and why people should not be so much worried about it.
I love it. I love the volatility. Look,
I was talking on the Organize last night about this. Dave Portnoy, a lot of you know who that
is. He fumbled the Bitcoin bag at $11,000. He fumbled it badly. The reality is people think
this stuff's easy and it's not and so you know you had a lot of
new people coming in here who are like hey like i'm gonna get rich on bitcoin and you have all
this over leveraged stuff and then you get a little panic in the market and everyone everyone
gets subjected to a shakeout and and the other reason i like this is because alt season okay um
like it or not you know we have watched bitcoin run from like 30K to all-time highs, just absolutely
just on this huge run. And it's completely normal for Bitcoin to have a pullback now. And that's
what people are freaking out about. They've never experienced the Bitcoin pullback. And this isn't
even a big one. But you can't forget about alt season. Alt season's here. It's been here for a couple of weeks this, but they're going to.
Stacks is where Bitcoin and crypto meet.
Okay?
Like Bitcoin, everyone likes to say Bitcoin, not crypto.
Okay, well, whatever.
Go have fun with your sailor coins.
But Stacks is where Bitcoin and crypto meets.
And so I'm very excited about alt season, obviously. You know, Bitcoin's going
to pull back from time to time. And Bitcoin's not the only thing worth doing in crypto. If you still
believe that in 2025, I don't, there's no helping you. Bitcoin has to scale and there's a whole
decentralized infrastructure being built on Bitcoin right here on Stacks. And so we get the best of both worlds if we do this right. So I like the volatility. Let Bitcoin
breathe. I mean, number doesn't go up forever. That's why rich guys like Dave Portnoy can
completely destroy a bag when Bitcoin's at $11,000. That's why most of us never were would been able to like hold bitcoin from
a dollar to today you know it's just it's difficult it's it's market it's too easy to
get over leveraged and too easy to get panicked but these are just market dynamics and if you're
if you're smart you can do quite well with volatility like this so i'm happy i've got dry
powder i've been filling my bags and um i'm looking forward to the
next leg up yeah great take like often people think it's super easy to invest in crypto like
even not just holding btc it's way harder than people might think and dylan do you have any
takes on it or not really?
Yeah, I pinned this tweet up here to the top. I mean, it's like the style from that account.
It can be like a little direct if you follow it.
But yeah, I think if we take a step outside of our Bitcoin bubble for a second and we think about all the the folks that are holding you know eth um they certainly don't think the cycle is over you know
like only being like with this new all-time high being what i think a hundred dollars above it says
um like you know the the bull market has so much more room to run um and you know it uh
it has so much more room to run um and you know it uh yeah i guess things can get pretty crazy so
um i don't have a crystal ball so i'm not gonna make uh price predictions but i guess that's more
of like like macro i think there's still plenty of room and then you know like once um you know
i guess some of these other majors run a little bit more than i think alts also follow
and uh but then there's also like that's more macro and then for for our ecosystem
um there are just so many catalysts up ahead that like this is probably the yeah i mean i don't know this probably has to be like the most exciting time to be building a Stacks ecosystem with so many,
you know, DeFi founders aligned with incentives coming online soon with different partnerships.
Some announced already, maybe some will be announced soon, but just the catalyst that we
need to really like service credible, like borrow and lend, and then like also service credible borrow and lend, and also service credible markets with precise tools,
with the HODL MM.
We're really elevating this from a sandbox playground environment
to something that can handle very serious amounts of capital.
So I think all that is going to be huge for the growth of the different protocols.
And I think maybe some attention with, like, if you look at other chains,
everyone's, you know, market making with, like, USDC, right?
And you've got a bunch of Bitcoin L2s that are kind of saying, like,
hey, my security is better than your security.
But there's a certain level of security
that's like table stakes for people to use Bitcoin DeFi.
And then above that,
maybe like marginal differences in between.
And I think the sort of the secret sauce can be
in the relationships and the BD
and like the distribution
for being able to, you know, create more accessibility for people that want to just
start with native, you know, BTC and get into DeFi and having the tools like the table stakes
tools as well. Like, it doesn't matter so much if you have like, you know, 1% better security, maybe
somewhere else, but, you know, but you only have like, you need to style pools, no one's ever
gonna no one serious is ever gonna come there and market make with with big volume, right.
So yeah, I guess, long winded way of saying macro still bullish and and like, maybe stacks
ecosystem, like short term, we have some really nice ones ahead of us that I'm super bullish on So yeah, I guess a long-winded way of saying macro still bullish and then maybe Stacks ecosystem.
Short term, we have some really nice ones ahead of us that I'm super bullish on as well.
And again, when I started the question, it wasn't so much about speculating about the price,
but more about how sometimes it's know, realizing where BTC is.
You know, I get panicked about the future of Bitcoin, per se, just for a few days of press action.
Oh, yeah, sure.
Sure.
I mean, yeah, like zoom out.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I phrased it a bit badly, the question, but I've seen like some people, maybe uh certain questioning uh about why btc
has been dropping and sometimes just more about you know realizing what is going in the back in
the background and as you said as you said like stacks is growing uh there's a lot of promise
for btc5 so definitely an exciting moment if you're into the building culture on Bitcoin.
And look, I think we can start finishing, or I mean wrapping up, wrapping up with the outro.
So maybe Jack and Dylan, we can first about, you know, maybe the last few thoughts we want to share about Hermetic and Bistro.
And then we can finish this weekly episode of the DeFi Show.
Yeah, I'm leaving you with two pieces of alpha.
Bitcoin backstables, USDH.
It's better than fiat backstables.
I don't care what APY you're getting
with a fiat backstable,
you're still subject to the same interest
as all the same...
Oh God, what's the word I'm looking for? The same level of depreciation
that all other fiat holders are appreciating, right? Like inflation is a bitch. That's the
word I was looking for. I don't know. Fiat backstables don't make any sense to me.
Bitcoin backstables make all the sense so learn about
usdh earn some real yield from the open market and instant coffee is the future guys um that's
the other piece of alpha like if you're if you're just worried about getting all this fancy coffee
with your fancy rituals now you're missing out man jack's already had two cups before you even
had your first one um it's alt season. We're all bullish.
Instant Coffee is the alpha.
I must not be online enough, Jack.
I don't know what you're talking about with the coffee.
I'm starting it now, man.
No, you're fine.
You're right on time.
This is the inaugural debut of the Instant Coffee alpha.
I expect the NFT collection to be released imminently okay nice nice good i can still get in early
nice and do you dylan what you want to say a few closing words
i think i've said a bunch of words already, so
I think we're probably good here, but yeah, I mean, future of stacks is
bright, future of Bitcoin is bright, and
keep an eye out for the next couple of weeks. Hopefully we'll have a sandbox environment
for you guys to play with the HODL MM with some dummy tokens and
get a feel for what it's like to work with concentrated liquidity
on bitcoin nice nice and i think as even for me i'm gonna keep it short just make sure to
keep following secondize as twitter accounts and join the discord if you want to uh be part of some nice activity with gpsc and that's it i think we we can wrap
it up here and tune but one not one last uh shout out to stacking doubt we're gonna be uh
for the stacks st sax pool we are about to uh re-up the emissions on that again and that should be extended for at least another 30 days
Nice, nice
Always nice to see some yield bump
So congrats
I love this news
And that's it
As I was saying
I think we can tune in next week for the next episode
And to everyone, thanks for joining
and have a great week.
Thanks, y'all. Bye.
Host
stacks.btc
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