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🚨State of DeFi: How to Survive and Thrive in the Bear Market 🚨
Recorded: March 12, 2026 Duration: 1:13:49Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. Justin Roberti. I haven't been thrown off the show yet, so I guess space is working better
for me than it has the past couple of weeks. Welcome, welcome everyone to When Alt Season.
We're going to talk about the state of defy today how to survive and thrive
in the bear market i think we can all agree that it's been an odd bear market in a lot of ways
like uh you know in some ways it it felt like a little bit of um a soft bear market like somehow
not quite as bad the optimism was still there maybe at the end of last year. And in the beginning of this year, you could feel a lot of those macro forces working.
But at the same time, on a personal note, not financial advice, but I wonder if it's really
going to be the kind of long-term bear market that we might be used to. Institutions are still
building during the bear market. So that institutional focus is
a big deal. Bring money into our space. Hey, when alt-season, Arthur, I think that you need to mute
your mic because your mic is still on. The bigger money is just looking for rails, not just
narratives, though. In other words, TradFi finds us useful, folks. So one thing, not financial advice,
that you probably can bet on
is that Bitcoin is not going to go to zero. TradFi has decided that they are adopting Bitcoin,
they're going to use it, and therefore crypto has a place. Not every project, of course,
but at least the top projects, at least the blue chips, and even the blue chips in like
meme coins and altcoins. Yeah, Doge, I expect to be around too.
Just my opinion.
Don't take financial advice from me.
That's a bad idea.
The winners may be projects that are solving real settlements and payment problems.
That's what they're kind of working on right now.
We are going to be subsumed
into the much larger organism of TradFi.
Bitcoin ETF flows have stabilized a bit
and some investors are starting to view Bitcoin
more like a geopolitical hedge
than just another risk asset.
That might be a worthwhile framework for Bitcoin.
It gives, you know, in a lot of ways,
global strife gives Bitcoin the use case
it's always been looking for.
Stablecoins remain one of the clearest institutional use cases,
especially for faster and cheaper cross-border payments.
All of this strife and war throughout the world,
of course, brings this delight.
People are looking for ways to move money.
By the way, I can see people are just entering the room,
I'm gonna keep doing my intro.
If you are looking to be a speaker
or if you are on our speaker list,
request so that we can see you as that. you
hey guys arthur from l season here does anybody hear me yep yeah it looks like Justin has rugged again.
Yeah, let me check.
Let me try to connect him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hi, Justin.
In the beginning of the show, and it throws me off.
At least this time, it let me back on easier than usual.
easier than usual. So Bitcoin ETF flows have stabilized a bit. And honestly, folks, ETFs
So Bitcoin ETF flows have stabilized a bit.
are a lot of what's making this particular run feel different, this particular market feel
different, in my opinion. Some investors are starting to view Bitcoin more as a geopolitical
hedge. It's a meaningful shift in how Bitcoin is being framed. Stablecoins, of course, one of the
clearest institutional use cases. Tokenized deposits are getting more attention because
they offer on-chain settlement tied directly to regulated bank deposits.
I noticed that recently, oh, I don't want to misquote the story, but one of the,
essentially, banks are getting, crypto banks are getting closer and closer to being treated
more as regular banks.
It's the whole story with Coinbase that went on this week.
We've got great people coming on.
The bigger institutional story is not one product by itself,
but how stable coins, tokenized assets, and smart contracts
can work together for faster settlements and lower counterparty risk.
Ultimately, the hope is to make life better for our users, right?
And make financial services more
available to everyone. Let's go over to Clem because it's always awesome to have Clem on.
Good morning, Clem. How are you, sir? What is everyone getting so upset about? Isn't this a
little market correction going on right now? Why all the long faces? Well, it's crypto winter,
isn't it? I mean, there's another $30,000 down to go probably.
It's down 60.
So, I mean, anybody that's lost 60
shouldn't really worry too much about the next 30.
But, you know, it goes down.
Temporary losses.
It's all just temporary losses.
But the reason people are grumpy is they took the bait, didn't they?
All these people going, oh, it's going to the moon.
It's going to a million, billion, trillion.
Oh, 250,000 by tomorrow. And they took the bait didn't they all these people going oh it's going to the moon it's going to a million billion trillion oh 250 000 by tomorrow and and they took the bait and they're unhappy about the fact they've been pulled out of the water and put in the keep net so you know that's why they're
upset yeah um you know but as i was saying in my little little intro it seems to me like by a slim margin uh you know trad fi has
decided that the crypto world is useful so uh yeah do you see uh you know we're not looking at a uh
the death knell of bitcoin in this case looks at a surfer and thinks he might be useful well sure
no i agree with that is it no it's not good for the surfer. Well, you expect us to be devoured then.
I don't see this as an existential threat to the crypto world.
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's not. You just become part of the shark, right?
Right. No, no, that's absolutely true. I agree with you there.
That's not good. That's not good.
No, you prefer to be a surfer, surfing surfing rather than some protein for the beast, right?
Yeah, well, isn't that just the way of things?
Wealth does tend to consolidate after all.
It's good to have one.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
You can't sit still in this stuff.
The past is what's being absorbed.
It's the future that isn't absorbed yet and won't be absorbed for you know n years
in the future so oh it's what is the future not is the past going to carry on doing its double
every four years right i mean that that is like so retro you know it's to be made in crypto but
in what's coming up next right wall street's gonna make fortunes out of crypto out of our skin so oh yeah don't go there go where the new stuff is going to be or try to
think what the new stuff's going to be and if you want to make the fortunes actually make the
the new stuff but and a lot of your guests are going to be those people but the new stuff that's
what you need to get into early and it's going to it's early. And it's going to come.
And it's probably underway now, subterraneanly, or in corners where if you looked at them, you go, well, what's that?
That's stupid, that is.
And suddenly it's not stupid anymore.
No, I completely agree with you.
I completely agree with you.
And I put out a tweet earlier today, something to the effect of, for all of you who are worried about the super wealthy and institutions not making money during this period, don't worry.
They will make money anyway.
They'll be fine in case that concern was preoccupying you.
Whether the average degen will be fine, right?
I mean, right, Justin?
I'm just, some people get so worried about whether uh
you know micro strategy will be okay i think they'll probably be okay probably black rock
will be fine too let me go over to uh we've got a little strategy will be okay i mean you don't
think so they're they're quite likely to be the the ftx of this circuit circuit aren't they well
ftx of this circuit circuit aren't they well we'll see we will see about that but let me let me come
back to you let me go over to elena elena welcome to the show i'm sorry which project are you with
elena do we get mike tech check on you or elena no yes yes hello hello. I was on mute.
My name is Elena.
Yes, I am with
Mites Layer 2
Goat Network, which is Bitcoin Layer 2
and Lazy AI and CryptoChicks
as well.
So, yeah,
I'm very glad
to have you on the show, but you are definitely experiencing
a lot of interference right now. So, so let me come back over to you and if you can try to get
somewhere with like a clearer signal that you can pick up on or some, some wifi, because right now
it's pretty choppy. Okay. I'll come back around to you, Ellenena i definitely want to want to hear you out
how about now is it is it better now yes that is better so a lot of people say what's the
project again uh yes so i am um like i i am representing mitis foundation which is a portfolio of projects, Mitesl2, Goat Network, which is Bitcoin Layer 2 ZKM,
Proofs, LAS AI, that's the AI accountability project,
and Crypto Cheeks, which is the educational project.
Okay, fantastic.
Yeah, I love Crypto Cheeks.
So a lot of people say bear market,
like everyone knows what that means.
I think we do, we know that's a bad time, but what kind of downturn would you call this really?
Is this just a normal crypto washout?
Are we hitting a liquidity crunch or is there something deeper going on?
As I believe Clem was alluding to with, uh, our new overlords in a, in trad fight, you
know, kind of buying up and absorbing us, but consuming us as he suggested.
Um, so from, as he suggested.
What do you think? Yes, from how I see it and how from what we see as the activities of our project right now,
building the agent economy, so we see it as a transition to machine to machine commerce.
Because while the human market,
our hackathons for developing agents on chain,
let's see like massive influx,
inflow of the agents ideas builders.
So for example, in our last hackathon in Silicon Valley,
we had 157 agents that were deployed on chain.
So we're seeing like kind of silent boom
in agent activity.
So like projects, for example, project PingPay
deploying swarms of over 90 agents that do an automated payments so this is
not a washout for sure it is a migration to an agentic lead market is what it sounds like you're
talking about exactly yes are we yes exactly like are we gonna end up with a dead world
we're gonna end up with a dead internet kind of situation where there aren't any humans in Web3 anymore?
Well, humans will be.
It's just agents are up-eating, but humans can't.
Figuring out how to do it, and humans will still be responsible for the why's.
So, like, humans are not going anywhere.
Humans are still giving the job to the agents.
It's just agents are way more efficient on executing this.
And blockchain is specifically what makes the agents very powerful.
Right, definitely.
Well, let me go over to Justin from Saharaara ai good to have you on justin so uh
have we got skynet yet and and if so uh you know when when do we expect the emergence to happen
and uh what do you think our robot overlords how do you think they'll want us to address them
yeah last time i was on here uh we were we about the emergence of SkyNet and how far out that is.
Yeah, I kind of go to that one pretty often.
Yeah.
And actually, I'm a proponent of AI, just to be clear. I just like to be funny. Go ahead.
Yeah, sure. Yeah, look, I don't think it's here yet. I think there's a lot of exciting stuff happening, and we're seeing this at Sahara.
I think there's a lot of exciting stuff happening and we're seeing this at Sahara.
You know, we're working on different agentic workflows and agents for users and for enterprises.
I think at the end of the day, we are seeing a lot of, you know, rapid innovation.
You have like perplexity doing some cool stuff.
And then, you know, obviously the open claw stuff was a major, kind of a major, you know, change major change in what's possible. But ultimately, we still have humans
in the middle, and I think that's a good thing. In terms of what's happening right now in the
market, I think we are facing a liquidity crunch, which is a little bit amplified by some macro
headwinds and maybe some structural weaknesses that the bull market kind of skipped
over, if you will, in the past.
And so we're seeing that shake out a little bit.
I think it's going to move sideways for a little while and kind of stay in this kind
of weird zone.
But I think that's a really interesting kind of opportunity for people in the market right now, as Elena alluded
to with, you know, kind of the emergence of these kind of agentic projects or AI led initiatives.
And so, yeah, I think what it's going through, I think it's a transitional time. But I think it's
really, you know, there's a lot of opportunity right now, I think, across the board, I think
you just have to kind of be smart and attentive to what's going on.
Are you surprised that AI isn't propping up the digital asset market like it is the stock market or has been up to this point?
No, you know, we're not really surprised.
I mean, ultimately, I think a lot of what you would have called the degen or retail level investors,
a lot of them have moved over to things like prediction markets from more traditional things
like meme coins and altcoins.
And so whether they stay there long term remains to be seen.
But I think we will see that liquidity continue to
shift across different market types as time goes on definitely well it's good to have you on Justin
good to have you back let's go over to Valdora how you doing today Valdora let's do a mic check
super good yeah can you guys hear me thanks for having me totally hear you yes I just didn't want
to do one of my two-minute setups before I find out that you can't speak. I do that sometimes.
So compared with 2018 or 2022, boy, 2022 wasn't that long ago.
Here we are in another down market.
What feels different this time to you?
Price action, market structure, who still remains, or what crypto is actually being used for?
Because we've got those mainstream use cases
we've been standing for for a decade now.
Yeah, I think these were some pivotal moments.
2018, the bear just started
after the market got a lot of traction in 2017.
Like 2016, 17 is when I kind of got in
and I developed this bias that markets are cyclical,
right? So, okay, 2018 came around and I started working hard, but then in 2000, I think 21 is
when, when Luna, Terra Luna happened and then SPF, sorry, FTX happened as well. So if anything
is comparable this time around is that you have like this group of people who holds on to this markets are cyclical narrative, as opposed to 10 October happening, and people blaming that as like a pivotal moment for mass liquidation.
So that's something people didn't see coming.
And then obviously, there's people putting a lot of hope in the administration.
We would get tired of winning, but
I'm just tired, to be honest. I'm still waiting to see the winning. But yeah, I think those are
some comparisons. And you could argue that markets still are some kind of cyclical in a way. And I'm
positive for the future. Sure. Well, I mean, everything comes around eventually, sooner or
later. Let me go over to Brian. Brian, how are you doing today, man?
You with us?
Hey, hey, can you hear me?
Yes, excellent.
Excellent mic check.
Good to have you back on.
We've Brian coming in from Glider.
Good to have you on, Brian.
So what do you think in terms of this particular down market?
Is this bear market more mature than past bear markets? What do you think in terms of this particular down market?
Is this bear market more mature than past bear markets? Have the factors become more complicated because we do have institutional money more in the
mix now?
What do you think?
Yeah, I mean, I think we're pivoting away from this idea of sort of random tokenized
meme coins everywhere to real investable assets.
And so you see this with on-chain stocks.
You see it with, you know, tokenized money market funds.
You'll soon see more credit coming on chain, RWAs, bonds.
I mean, ultimately, these are much bigger markets too, right?
When you think about the equity market in the U.S, it's $60 trillion, maybe more now, whereas crypto is like two and a half
trillion, I think today, down from the four trillion that it used to be. That's the maturation
we're seeing, right? What I'm a little bit more worried about is that we're seeing, you know, the New York Stock Exchange and all of these other sort of players come in and want to create private, more siloed blockchains.
And that really doesn't make a lot of sense, right?
For an end user, if you're on a blockchain, you want to be able to use your assets for lending or staking or governance or all this utility that we don't really know exists yet or will be invented.
And so that's really where I see sort of the maybe the friction between real institutions and where crypto is today.
Right.
You know, a good example of that is like New York Stock Exchange stocks.
Like, will you be able to use those on abe right or are we
going to go down this pathway of like there's ave on one side and sort of this like you know sort of
degen i wouldn't even consider ave degen but more like you know uh decentralized like on-chain crypto
and then there's sort of like i would call it fake crypto or fake decentralization to some extent.
Well, yeah, we've got a lot of that.
We've got a lot of no one really giving a crap whether anything is centralized or not.
I mean, as soon as we have these partnerships with TradFi, they are not concerned with decentralization.
ETFs are not decentralized.
Bitcoin is.
I love Aave as a project, but you know, what do you think is becoming of a decentralization
as a principle when clearly it's not a priority to traditional finance and they have all the money?
Yeah. And I think that's what they're realizing. Right. Right. Larry Fink, funny enough, you know,
he was anti-crypto and then he was so bullish on crypto.
But then he very quickly realized that, oh, man, like, actually, if we deploy everything on Ethereum, we don't have any moat anymore.
How do we make money on this?
And then it became, you know, not like open permissionless blockchains, but, oh, we should have a shared private institutional blockchain so that we could still make money and we could still be a middleman.
And look, I get it.
Like, that's what he has to preach.
You know, in this sort of day and age, you know, one of our investors, A16Z,
has put out a long piece about how open permissionless systems eventually win.
I think we will see that.
And so it's more about regulation catching up to it.
How do you regulate on-chain stocks, right?
Right.
And then you'll be able to lend them on ABE.
But we have to figure that out on the sort of like the regulatory side with these institutions.
But it's an uphill battle, I would still say.
Definitely.
You know, let's follow Brian,
everyone listening at home or at work or wherever follow Anidos,
follow Dora, follow Justin, follow Clem, Elena or Elena.
I'd love to get you back up here. I see that you, I think you're having
connection problems. Let's go over to Anidos finance,
Anidos mic check real quick. Can we hear you?
Check.
One, two.
All right.
We got you.
Good.
Excellent.
Now, if Bitcoin stress is rising, but we're still not at the kind of capitulation levels
that mark past bottoms, are we early in the pain or just in a slower and more confusing
version of it?
What do you think, Matt? in a slower and more confusing version of it i think certainly the slower uh more confusing version of it and honestly
the tracks with uh where we are in the historical cycle as to some past beer markets around roughly
12 14 month imagine from the peak we're squirrely in that
window right now.
So the issue is that the usual emotion, capital issues, signals like those mass minor shutdowns,
exchange collapses, fear and greed to all this spent in a single digit for weeks haven't
shown up clearly.
So what analysts are pointing out is a potential flaw somewhere like 55 70k range for the bitcoin
which is dramatically higher base than prior cycles ever had and the market is uh kind of
grinding rather than just collapsing we see a lot of builders at anodus we start on xrpl and we're
still there and it's um very encouraging to see that the builders do not lose faith, neither in asset nor in the market.
And psychologically, it's harder to trade because there is no clean moment to call a bottom.
So people who learn to buy the panic are waiting for a panic that keeps not quite arriving.
People build something for the long term.
Our team has been in the cycle for like three
years trenches or not we keep pushing we keep building in the trenches whether it's stealth
moment or not we are developing products we are product centric and we don't care about what is
beautiful i mean yeah in certain points it's easier to get users certain points it's harder to proceed with
user acquisition but we're not troubled by it and i think anyone who's here for the long term
not distracted by some hype trends have a clear vision and building to the penalty of it like we
have and just evolving trying to be flexible with the market they should not be
bothered by any of this market fluctuation because fintech and what3 have a bright future
and we are here to make it even better thank you yeah and you make an interesting point about user
acquisition you know it's gone so mainstream uh folks on my panel. You know, are we still, is it still difficult to attract people into the space?
Or are people still coming into the space despite the down market?
What do you think, Valdoro?
If people are coming naturally into the space?
Or if they're being attracted up?
Yes, despite it being down down are people still getting in
on it because it seems like it's become you know mainstream knowledge at this point yeah i think
i think despite what's happening you know the focus is not on on btc dying and btc obituaries
and it's all over um but i think the risk averse, I think also something very specific about Gen Z,
you know, seeing crypto as one of the only few ways
to accumulate wealth,
to, you know, outperform their parents
and the generation, the boomer generation before them,
you know, on a wealth level.
So I think there's so much net positive
and fun stuff going on that I think there's so much net positive and fun stuff going on
that I think it's logically so,
as like a negative side effect
of them being on their phones a lot
and being very self-centered
and being online all the time,
naturally they will pivot towards crypto.
So the market,
and then on the other side,
you've got all the institutionals
who are interested
and you and I
and everyone here on the panel
sees every day, you blackrock launching um a securities builder program
um all kinds of grayscale um funds being launched so there's there's so much stuff happening yeah
100 and there's a lot of references to institutional money folks uh in in these
answers and there's a lot of references to use cases. And that's good.
You know, the more that we're kind of relying on what our technology can bring to the table
that hasn't been there before, the stronger we're going to be as a space. Ultimately,
that's what it's all about, after all, at least hypothetically. You know, Clem,
since last I'd heard you were saying, you know, Clem predicted this happening, by the way, folks at home.
He was saying 60,000 when nobody wanted to hear it.
You said at the time that maybe down to 40,000.
And if I'm not mistaken, you said something about 30,000 just a minute ago when we were talking.
What does real capitulation actually look like to you? When do we know
that it's run its course and it's ready to start going back up again? What do you think, Clem?
Well, I think that idea is not a good one because you don't buy a falling knife.
And capitulation is trying to go, wow, it's gone down so much and it's going down so much
right in front of my eyes that another $3, that's the bottom i'm going to get in right that's
the idea of capitulation what is most most likely to happen is what happened last time what happened
the time before and what happened the time before it doesn't go down and go up in a v shape it goes
down and if it when it goes up it's got some kind of weird W shape.
But Bitcoin doesn't even do that.
It goes down, hits the bottom.
Everybody says it's all over.
It crawls along on its belly for a year.
And then the halvening happens.
And then off it goes again.
So the next halvening, if I'm not mistaken, is 2028.
So it's going to go down to you know an equivalent you remember the halvening
means that the bottom is is twice the previous bottom and the top is twice the previous top
so 60 120 yeah and when it went to 60 it came down to what was it 18 i thought it was going
to come down to 14 but it didn't come down to 18 so the bottom 36 yeah i mean you know rule of thumb
you know just roughly speaking so it will come down to 40 to 30 if it was to overshoot because
everybody was saying oh it's all over and you know some company that made all these um you know fake
plcs and all these fake listed inks with their treasury concepts, which are, you know, totally crazy, have to bail out or decide they want cash actually rather than a load of bitcoins.
And they're going to do something else with the money now.
Oh, funny that.
If that all happens, then it could go past 30, but it probably won't.
You know, it's 60 is two thirds of the way down roughly.
Yeah. So another third is 30. So it, it came up from 18,
it hit 120. Yeah. Uh, last, last high was 60, it hit 120.
It's going to heart. It's going to come back down to 60, which is, you know,
a little bit more, sorry, come back down to 30,
which is double the previous low,
give or take, and then it'll go sideways.
It will grind along sideways and be very, very boring,
and everybody will say it's all over.
And with a bit of luck, there'll be another cycle,
and then it will go to 250, unless Wall Street kills it,
which is, you know, 50-50 in my book.
This cycle, there might not be one because now
the vampire squids of this world have got their tentacles wrapped around bitcoin and ethereum and
all that other stuff and all they do is they suck the life out of it yeah that's what they do that's
what wall street does it sucks the life out of assets and their customers and it buys houses in the
hamptons i mean that's the purpose of wall street it's not there to do anybody any favors
right right um sorry guys justin got thrown off during that whole thing i don't know why i don't
know why space basis does this to me week after week. So you figure just based on the...
You're too popular.
I talk a lot of crap about Elon Musk.
Maybe that's why.
That's always been the joke.
But you figure that based on the trajectory that we've had up till now,
since we're at 60 now, you can easily see it coming down to 30.
It will break down and it will travel another 30,000.
I mean, there's a lot of technical reasons and I don't wish to bore people
that trends break in the middle.
Yeah.
And you've seen, you've seen this break and you know,
it was a move from a hundred to, to down to kind of 60 ish.
And there will be another similar size break.
If it, I mean, you know, I'm not Nostradamus. My, and there will be another similar size break.
I mean, you know, I'm not Nostradamus.
My crystal balls aren't always totally right.
I would say that the level that you're seeing now,
this equilibrium between 60 and 70, yeah,
balls will expect that to be the bottom and then to break up into a pattern and revisit the previous high and go to 250 and
all that good stuff but i think it's much much more likely to break down drop another 30 000
and that will be the bottom and then it will just lie there like it did last time like it did the
time before like it's often just lie there and everybody all those people that were saying
billions and trillions all those idiots on x posting all this stuff about how it can only go exponential they'll go and they'll go away and
everybody will forget about it and then there'll be a halvening and then there'll be a shortage of
supply and then off it will go again and then it'll be fomo and then it goes through the roof
that is the classical loop that is the structure of the cycle the only thing is the classical loop. That is the structure of the cycle.
The only thing is the previous cycles have not had these predators in there.
They've had a different type of predators.
They've had the bearded tattoo guys, the Andrew Tate lookalikes.
They've been the predators, which are small-time criminals, right? time criminals right now we're big time not criminals who act on assets to extract as
much value as possible for themselves by offering services or by exploiting the market dynamics
that they're in and those guys you know they they have no fear. They have no remorse. They don't stop and they're good at it.
And so that's the risk, the existential risk of all the old cryptos.
Who are there now embracing it in the same way as a shark embraces a surfer.
I mean, it's not going to be good, is it?
Right, right.
You know, not financial advice, folks at home.
But if you had to guess what you're feeling on this cycle, I have heard a lot of people talk about it being a little bit abbreviated,
having the possibility of us getting out of this in the relatively near future.
What do you think?
It's got to run its course from what you're saying.
I think it should have been in the middle of last year and i said as much but you know direction is easy timing is difficult yeah right right so the point is the the the direction is towards 30 000 40 000.
now if you wanted to have exposure to bitcoin all you really would do would be to DCA.
Yeah, it's just buy a little bit, buy a little bit, and buy a little bit every month, just
DCA.
And then all those losses from 120,000 will all wash out if Bitcoin has got a long-term
future at increasing heights, which, you know, inflation will do the trick for you.
I mean, if you think about it, since the previous high, not this one, but the previous one,
there's been 30 or 40% inflation.
So in fact, almost, when it hit 100, it's almost the same price as it was when it was
at 68 or whatever it was the season before.
Because inflation has made those dollars worth so much less money.
So you could say even now, Bitcoin's barely kept up with inflation in this cycle.
So, you know, it's the past.
The future is what people should be looking at.
The future of crypto, not the past of crypto.
You know, not all this old stuff
that now Wall Street has got its fangs into.
The stuff that's coming, the agentic stuff is going to be big.
So that's what I'll be looking.
I'll be keeping my eye on somebody who will take OpenClaw and stick a wallet on it and plug it into World of Warcraft and plug it into a prediction market and something wonderful will happen.
That's what I'll be looking out for.
Right, definitely.
You know, going into this year, if someone had told me that the AI narrative would dominate everything,
I was totally ready for that to happen.
Why do you think AI isn't kind of propping up our space more, Clem?
Well, AI changes everything.
Crypto is a niche sport i mean you know ai changes
everything i mean all across all sorts of dynamics i mean the one that they're not talking about
is that ai gives normal people 10 more iq points it gives really clever people like are listening
to this 50 iq points yeah what's that going to do to your society when the stupid people aren't getting any
smarter and the smart people are getting a third increase in their IQ?
That's going to have a completely disruptive impact.
That would be great to really experience real meritocracy, not meritocracy as a euphemism
for those who hold capital.
But let me go over to Elena.
Elena, you know, when people talk about DeFi surviving this bear market,
what does survival look like to you?
Keeping our TVL, keeping users, keeping builders,
or working out your real product market fit?
What do you think, Elena?
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I was listening right now for what is like kind of prediction
of what is going to happen to Bitcoin.
And like, I agree, we probably could follow the same cycle and do the same, you know, unless we do something about it.
And that's, you know, this kind of survival and AI is that what is probably can pull us out and maybe give us some control over it.
So it's not like the big institutions who put money into Bitcoin that is leading us,
but us that is driving that.
And, you know, AI is on chain.
This is something that we have that in our pocket.
We know blockchain really well.
So that's what we're doing with our AI-agentic economy.
We're basically building, we're bringing AI's on the Bitcoin.
So like Bitcoin that is not buildable, but we found a way to do it through layer two Bitcoin.
So the survival is actually utility without human intervention.
And that's what we are like, that's why we're doing the hackathons.
That's what we are proving that with that X402 protocol,
so the payment layer, basically 100% of the projects
that it used the automated merchant account
without human intervention.
Like for example, the gaming projects,
and we have like translator agents that translate text to any languages just to like 10 cents per request.
So all this kind of real world utility projects that are running on a Bitcoin, there's agents that running on Bitcoin that people will start using as like, as opposed to use a centralized AI.
So this is what really can pull us off.
And that's how like defy surviving is through this,
through the real utility and through the real business that running on,
on Bitcoin. And that's how we can like, that's how we do,
how we can control over what's how we do how we get
the control over what is going to happen without just sitting
and waiting.
Right, Brian, what do you think, man, in terms of metrics, you're
looking at, we define defy surviving the bear market. Is
it about just not dying is about showing the thing that's useful even when prices are bad?
Is this, as people want to say, all about leaning into utility and leaning into building?
What do you think, man?
So the one thing that we've noticed is that in every other bear cycle, the number of active wallets on Ethereum will drop off.
Always. cycle, the number of active wallets on Ethereum will drop off, always.
Right now, and I haven't looked at that recently, but maybe a month ago, we were at all-time
high active wallets on Ethereum.
And so that tells you something.
I think it gives you a sense that the price now is uncorrelated with sort of the activity
of the network, which is strange, but I think it maybe goes to show you that we've got more institutions,
more stablecoin wallets popping up and doing things that are interesting.
On the agentic side, I think it's really, really cool.
I struggle to see where sort of trading and asset management and wealth management gets, you know, taken over by
agents. So I can see some form of like democratization around automated investing.
But, you know, we kind of really already have that on in Web2, right? We've got
mutual funds and things like that that these users are used to seeing.
And so I'm not the most bullish on agents in terms of trading.
Like, you know, just think about it.
Like, are you asking an agent to like buy and sell Bitcoin?
Like, that feels like a very weird flow.
In fact, it almost takes longer to say that than it does to click five buttons.
So that to me doesn't really add any user value. Where it maybe comes
in and help is things like analyze my portfolio, give me some ideas about how I should be
positioning or changing this or what are other people doing on chain that are also trying to
do similar things to me. And then changing and rebalancing and assessing and mutating my
portfolio in a way that is helpful there.
But for the pro traders of the world, I don't really ever see them using any of these services
to talk to an agent and say, I want to buy or sell or I want to DCA.
Even when you're thinking about sending money to friends, you're not asking ChatGPT to Venmo your friend.
It doesn't make any sense.
And so, yeah, we're excited about the agent space.
I think it's just more so, like, what is the form factor
that is actually going to be out there for people to use?
And you're even seeing it today.
Like, we had all this talk about stable coins being the rails for agents. And,
you know, suddenly ramp comes out with no credit cards are the rails for agents. And like,
okay, so if credit cards are the rails for agents, then do stable coins even matter in that world?
So I don't know. We've yet to see how that's going to shape up. I think a lot of the stuff
that you see on timeline and your feeds are certainly hyped up more so than they are real, actual, productive, usable
products.
Right.
And that's the age we're getting into too now, where even a lot of these AI products
that people will promote and you'll go try them and you'll be like, this is nothing like
what you marketed to me. It's all hype. And so in that sense, I think we're getting a little bit frothy honestly and a lot of this sort of ai a lot of strange rappers and
things like that that are getting funded um but yeah um i i am still optimistic for the future of
of where crypto is going it's just what is the form factor that uh that people are actually going
to interact with it through what is that interface or what is that agent?
Right, right.
Well, it'll be interesting to see.
I mean, I want to ask Justin from Sahara more about about agentic AI,
but let me call on Elena since she has her hand up.
Elena, is there something you want to add?
Yes, I just want to just a quick note.
Yes, I agree.
Like if we just put the agents, you know, just to trade and everything just to trade Bitcoin. This is not the way. The way is actually show to the world, to the mass user that Bitcoin is not just, you know, supposedly digital gold
or supposedly store of value,
while the whole world is thinking that this is a scam, right?
So by running real utility agents,
like even like translator agents,
something that normal people use on Bitcoin infrastructure
is bringing this base for them to believe that this is good.
So that's how we prompt the value of the Bitcoin.
So that's my two cents.
Great.
I'm going to go over to Justin from Sahara.
Justin, you know, there's a lot of crypto specifically.
The Web3 world has gotten extremely excited about the idea of agentic AI.
I do see it used in a few other cases, like when Anthropic announced their debugging feature that they have where they're going to have multiple agents go and test your stuff, kind of QC your product.
you see your product. That's kind of cool. But usually it's something that Web3 people are
That's kind of cool.
But usually it's something that Web3 people are talking about.
talking about. And what gets me about it is that it's very focused on sort of like outsourcing
human functions and having these agents behave autonomously as opposed to just empowering the
humans who are making these kind of buying decisions. At what point by having an autonomous
or semi-autonomous agent, are we just outsourcing accountability or we're just kind of laundering blame for bad choices?
And how is that necessarily going to be handled in the future?
Go ahead, Justin.
Yeah, it's a great question.
So I think there's kind of two aspects to this.
There's kind of two aspects to this, right?
And I think Brian touched on one of them really well, which is like, I don't necessarily think that we're going to all of a sudden have, you know, like the top level investors or top level traders, just to use an example, using agents because they already have algorithmic trading.
Like they already have these systems set up.
So that's nothing new.
So where I think it becomes more powerful is for kind of like the middle level retail investors or kind of like your everyday person who now has access to tools that allows them to function and or treat their portfolio in a more systematic way or like algorithmic way.
And so they're getting insights, you know, for their portfolio.
They're getting tailored strategies based on their risk tolerance and their goals that, you know, in the portfolio, they're getting tailored strategies based on their risk
tolerance and their goals that, you know, in the past weren't really available to them, they would
have had to do this work very manually, in order to come to those conclusions. And oftentimes,
it would have been, you know, wrong. In terms of like the accountability aspect,
I think it's an interesting question. And I don't think it's one that's been solved yet,
necessarily. I think at the automated level, it does open the door for who exactly is responsible for the performance of, say, a portfolio or performance of, say, an AI workflow.
However, right now, what we're really seeing at scale is humans in the middle where they're having to actually execute and make those decisions.
And so ultimately, it's still on the human it's still on the person um you know when it comes to like
the outcome however that is going to change quickly and i think once we get to a point where
most most workflows and most um you know ai use cases are pretty automated. That becomes the real question of who is responsible for this? Is it me as the person setting up the workflow, as the controller, if you will? Or is it the agent that I'm empowering to make those decisions?
have an answer for that yet. I think right now the focus is on solving for, you know,
kind of human inefficiencies and adding scale to everyday people's lives, right? If we think about
like the average person who is extremely busy and doesn't have time to, you know, do like a
thorough analysis on their portfolio and decide, you know, where they should be investing, especially
in a very complicated macro environment, that's where there's a lot of power in ai right now and
i think the accountability factor is something that we're going to have to to work out in the
next you know two to three years you know what what i'm really wondering is i i think you know
i've asked as my speed questions speed round question at the end of a bunch of ai shows
speed round question at the end of a bunch of AI shows, whether an individual human trader or
agentic AI or an AI agent would do a better job independently with the same amount of money doing
investment. And the consensus generally has been that the two working together are probably going
to get the best result. I wonder why there's so much focus
on replacing that human function
rather than empowering the humans
that could potentially be using it.
It just seems like, I mean, you know,
there's a bit of a tangent for me,
but it seems like a strange direction to take the marketing,
a strange thing for humans to, you know, get excited about,
essentially replacing our own usefulness on some level,
where we could be talking about empowering ourselves.
Let's go ahead and get back more into the DeFi side of it.
Go ahead, Brian.
Yeah, what's up?
Yeah, I was going to say that the world of agents seems very magical.
And I think it's easy to talk about marketing and all
these things like, oh man, my, you know, polymarket agents market made and made me, you know, a
thousand dollars every minute. And so I think that's why we get a lot of this on, on sort of
hype driven, sort of, it does all of the magic. I don't have to do anything. But then when you really dig into it, many of those
programs or sort of market making techniques are much more hands-on than you realize, right?
It's more about the marketing of the magic and it's no hands-on. But when you do dig in,
there's usually a human in the loop there. And so, again, one of our investors, A16Z, again,
we'll talk about like, we're going to go through an era now of human in the loop for quite a while.
And especially for things that have finality, meaning like transactions on the blockchain
that can't be reversed.
You're really going to need that human in the loop to ensure that, especially with real
money, it's not making the wrong decisions or making the wrong moves.
So, yeah.
Yeah. And I think that when we look at how the excitement for self-driving robo taxis went,
you know, we were supposed, I believe Elon originally said that we're going to have those
last year. We had them in some limited rollouts over the last year or so, and they have a tendency to perform erratically, except in their case,
they drive into trucks and that sort of thing. It's such incredible technology.
There's such incredible potentiality there that I would love to see us use it in a way that really
helps people rather than sort of push into some preconceived notion about what's most
exciting. But let's get back over to the DeFi side of it. Okay, Leda, yes, you want to, we're
going to end up having an AI show. I love to talk about AI. It's part my fault. Go ahead.
Well, I mean, that's the future anyway. So like, again, a small note from me, as any technology,
it needs time to mature. So as you see with the self-driving as any technology, it needs time to mature.
So as you see with the self-driving cars, yes, it needs the maturity.
It needs to reach the maturity and they always will be human in the loop. And we will not be able to offload the accountability on the agent because agent cannot go to jail.
Therefore, it's always going to be ability on the human side.
So again, my, you think there will always be, you think there will be always be human in the loop.
Of course.
Yes.
So somebody has to be accountable.
Yes.
Somebody living and breathing have to be accountable.
How do you help hold the agent accountable?
Do you just kill it?
Like what, what do you you what is the repercussions agent
has this is very philosophical question by the way yeah i we can go back to defy but this is this
is what it comes to how what the repercussions is that agent gonna have if we go any further
down down this tangent we're getting into a good show but a different show so let me bring it back around to stable coins i agree with you um you
know and i love your stance on it but if if you if elena comes out with an elena bot which then
creates a hundred other elena bots one of them gets uh you know reverse engineered by justin
with my amazing technical skills i guess I vibe code all of this and then
I cause it to act badly in some way. You know, we don't want Elena to be sued for the thing that I
hacked. We're going to run into these problems, but let's move on and talk about stable coins
real quickly. Now going over to Valdora, if stable coins, tokenized deposits, tokenized securities keep gaining ground during
the downturn, does that mean that DeFi is maturing? Or does that mean that speculation
is giving way to more boring but more durable use cases? Because even like, for instance,
we don't have, I don't have Saffron on today, but I know that we're, I'm running into more
projects that are kind of like DeFi crossover projects that are offering returns that are closer to what you can get in TradFi.
What do you think, Valdora?
Yeah, like we kind of, we kind of talked about that last week as well.
You know, it's definitely maturing.
It's definitely maturing.
And it means more boring yields, but more realistic.
And I think one of the main things I've heard founders, builders, and people who've just been in the space for a longer time say that if it seems too good to be true, it's probably entirely untrue or a Ponzi or whatever you want to call it.
or a Ponzi or whatever you want to call it.
So we've gone from not actually checking the white paper on Terra Luna
to being savvy users in this space
and understanding that even though the yields are lower,
there's still some autonomy.
You're still sovereign in how you use decentralized protocols.
So that's definitely a benefit. But yeah,
you could argue that it's more boring. It's okay, though. I'm still excited about that
because there's still room for expansion.
Do we have Anidos still with us?
Not sure if they're still on. But more boring
is not necessarily, you know know it can be a little
disruptive because we've been making these huge claims and that's how we've gotten all these
dgens on board uh do you think that we're are we losing some of our uh our fire in the web3 space
because we're losing those really high returns as as a reason to, to get in on it.
No, no, no, definitely not. I like,
I like the idea that if you look at a lot of the vault structures and let's, let's say you take a maple or, or Lido, they're,
they're directing their energy towards.
Did we lose you?
You kind of cut out for me.
Yeah, can you guys hear me?
Yeah, yeah, sorry. Sometimes it just blinks out. Go ahead, take that again.
No, my bad. No, I was going to say that, you know, more and more big parties are tailoring to institutions, right? So Maple Finance or Lido.
And that's interesting because they have a huge amount of liquidity. And it's only a subsegment
of what there is in the space, right? There's also prediction markets, which is super exciting.
People want to trade perps, 1000x, you can do that on Aster, right? There's a lot of crazy exciting
stuff going on. But for this to grow and to become, you know, to get adopted, I think stable
coins and yield and payment reels is going to be the main discussion of 2026. So this new
partnership that Mastercard did with, you know, all these huge parties like Binance and Coinbase
and Ripple, these are all things which are hugely exciting, I think, for the space.
Anyone who's now listening to you, anyone who's here building, they want to be around
for the long term.
So it's just going to get a bit more boring, a bit slower.
Definitely.
You know, what I'm wondering is, in past cycles, bear markets have a way of cleaning
the table, setting up for the next run
what has to be rebuilt this time before people can honestly say that defy is ready for another
real expansion you know what kind of shape is defy in right now in order to uh to go into another uh
another uh bull run well what do you think clem you know do we have the use cases are we
useful enough now does there need to be a bigger die-off there's still an awful lot of projects
about really i mean i i'm not a big fan of defy anymore i mean it's one of those things holding
back the whole area is that everybody's got this, you know, greed thing going, Oh, going to defy. And, and I'll, you know,
I'll do this and I'll do that. And I'll make this and I make,
it's all about money. It's not the mainstream.
That's not mainstream. People don't come home from work and go, Oh,
I'm going to go out on my second job. Now I'm going to stack some shelves down
Walmart and make myself some money. No, I'm going to collapse on my chair.
I'm going to watch television. you know they most people are not obsessed with money unlike me and you right and and if
crypto is going to be about just money or trying to make money or trying to become horribly rich
and and you know making generational wealth and all that toffee it's going to be a niche it's right
investing is a niche it really is i mean if you go out at night you'll see tons and tons of people
sat around watching a load of football players many people on their phone looking at the down
right so you know but things are changing clem like uh it's just in my lifetime like just 10 years ago
perhaps um you know there were the number of americans that that were investing in the stock
market was down around like somewhere between like one to five percent it was like a very it
was very small and it has gone about here what's that what years are you talking about here? What's that? What years are you talking about here?
I was thinking about 10 years ago, pre-COVID.
What about the dot-com boom when everybody was waking up at 6 in the morning in California to trade stocks?
Well, that's true. I mean, remember when the newspapers had 10 pages of stock market information?
You don't think that there's something to the fact that there's more data available to people than ever before?
Not to mention people are getting squeezed harder at least in the us uh i'm sure lots of places than
ever before you don't think that there's going to be a lasting kind of robin hood effect with people
getting not only into digital markets but just in the markets in general oh there you go you put
there you go. You put, you put Robin hood next to Netflix and tell me where the interest of people
you put robin hood next to netflix and tell me where the interest of people lies
lies. I love your cynicism, Clem. Uh, let, let me go over to, uh, to, to Val Dora. What do you
think, man? Are, is, uh, is defy set up for a place for real success? Cause, cause Clem always
has some valid, uh, criticisms part of what I love about
having him on the show. And it's true that, you know, that DeFi was an intermediate hobbyist
level thing to get into, which makes it a niche within a niche. And I can clearly see
that there are some companies out there offering yield that are really trying to change
that. What do you think, Valdora? Yeah, like, first of all, I was on one of the spaces where
I heard Glenn make the prediction about Bitcoin. So kudos to you. I heard him say that as well.
I have a bit more slightly mildly techno-optimistic approach that I think what is still cool about DeFi is that it's empowering in some way.
So you don't need to be an accredited investor, you know, and depending on your appetite for risk, you can work with perps and you can access protocols just by using technology.
You know, like, sure, there's custodial risk and there's all this stuff.
But I generally think it's it's I have, and there's all this stuff. But I generally
think it's, it's, I have a techno optimistic view, I think it's empowering. Now, as for the future of
it, I think perp decks is going to be a major thing, like, like perps generally are cash cow for
centralized exchanges, right? So the same will apply, if the dex is good enough strong enough fast enough and
that's the main issue right the main issue is that it's still not as fast as um the regular stock
market that's i think i heard austin for there of double zero talk about that that that you know
once we reach those speeds we we still have latency so there's not a lot of interest of TradFi to come over to us to trade at a slower,
at a lower latency.
So I think over time,
over time we're going to get there
with faster matching engines,
more liquid markets and empowering overall.
But I do get Clem for sure.
By the way, everybody go ahead
and follow all the brilliant people
on our panel today
uh ilia katowski if i see you in the audience if you request to speak i'll bring you up
but we're just going to wrap it up in the next 15 minutes or so we do appreciate them uh
giving us their time follow when alt season two this is my alternate account because i got booted
two times drugged two times earlier but follow me if you'd like to um
of course sensible is my main account you know i'm going to go over to you justin because you had your
hand up uh i i want you know i also wanted to bring in because i've been talking about this
last week kraken financial got a federal reserve master account you know it seems like all the signals should be that crypto is being more mainstreamed and more accepted, especially here in the U.S., than ever before.
You know, are we not going to be in a good place for the next bull run or what needs to happen before that happens?
Go ahead, Justin.
Yeah.
So I think Clem had a lot of interesting points that got me thinking. So I think there's kind of a multitude of things happening in North America, right?
Especially, and I'll speak to that market because it's the one that I live within.
The reality is young people are looking for new asset classes because traditional ones
like home ownership are just so out of reach for the everyday person.
And so now they're starting to move to things like prediction markets.
They're moving to crypto. They're starting to move to things like prediction markets, they're moving
to crypto, they're moving to, you know, you know, even traditional stocks, because a lot of these
traditional classes that have been taught by their parents as being like the holy grail are just,
it's unattainable, and it's not going to happen for the vast majority of people.
And so when you see things like institutional buy-in and even like government buy-in to crypto,
I think that's exciting for
a lot of young people in particular, because it kind of validates these markets that they're
considering entering. And then on the other side of that, there's also this idea of accessibility,
right? So yes, most people are at home watching Netflix every night, but they're still on their
phones while they're watching Netflix. And while they're on their phones watching Netflix, all of a sudden they have
an app open. They have Robinhood open. They have our agent Soren open and they're looking at their
portfolio and they're actually investing while they're watching the latest episode of Love is
Blind or whatever's on Netflix. And so that's what's changed. Like, yes, they are
collapsing into their lazy boy chair, but they're not just staring blankly at the TV. Now all of a
sudden they have two screens in front of them and one is used to invest. And so I think that's a
huge change. And I think that's something that's completely new to the world. And so that does give
me a lot of optimism and makes me really excited about kind of what's possible um as we move into this new era and I think the bull run uh which let's
be honest could could take a while before we see it and I think Clem is is spot on with that um I
think when it does happen you know there's potential for it to be you know unlike anything
we've seen in the past and
that's just because we have uh you know a lot more people all of a sudden accessing markets that
we're traditionally out of reach for them right definitely uh clem is there something you'd like
to say yeah sitting in your lazy boy watching netflix and being on robin hood on your mobile
phone that is not investing that is gambling, that is not investing. That is gambling.
And gambling is not investing.
And gambling is a completely different format.
And yes, it's quite mainstream.
And yes, crypto has been very good at opening up gambling for a lot of people.
But it's not necessarily that sustainable because people lose all their money and then
they don't have any.
But it's not investing
did I get rugged did I rug you
no I think Justin got back yeah it looks like that oh oh dear oh looks like he's back and requesting to
speak again oh sorry clem i don't know why uh yeah and it's exactly like that it's just blip
and i'm gone there's there's no warning
at all i don't know why i've got a i've got one of those flips which is a great phone you know
i've got a new phone shouldn't be doing this um okay let's go over to uh elena elena you have
your hand up go ahead elena can we hear you?
Okay.
No, I don't hear Elena.
Does anybody else hear Elena?
Not me.
Okay.
Every now and then I'm like the only person who can't hear, which is how bizarre spaces
can be sometimes.
All right, Elena, I'm sorry. I'll have to come back over to you. I'm not hearing only person who can't hear, which is how bizarre spaces can be sometimes. All right, Elaine, I'm sorry.
I'll have to come back over to you.
I'm not hearing you right now.
Let's go over to Justin, and we're going to go ahead and start wrapping up.
Folks, follow all of these good people.
It's such a pleasure to speak to all of them.
You know, Justin, what do you think?
Are we closer to the bottom, or are we at the middle of this cycle?
You know, where do you think we'll be
by the end of the year i think we're closer to the bottom but i think closer is doing a lot of
kind of work in that sentence like i think it's i think we're still a ways out um but i think you
know what's going to happen is that we're going to just kind of sit
in this weird sideways spot for a while. And then, you know, within the next two years, I think we
start to see things rapidly change one way or another. But then I'm like, I'm super optimistic
for the five years ahead, generally speaking, I think, if you look at like the pattern,
the patterns do repeat, then, you know, ultimately ultimately it's the timing that it's a timing that everyone kind of gets wrong.
And so it's impossible to predict.
Yeah.
As, as Clem said, the timing is hard to predict.
Uh, what, what about you Val Dora?
Where do you think we are in this cycle?
Are we toward the end?
Are we in the middle?
Well, no, I agree with Justin.
Like we're, we're, We're close to the bottom.
We might be bottoming out until November.
If I just had to put a month on it, that's what I think.
I'm structurally long.
I hope Clem is too.
If I remember correctly, Clem made that observation about 60,000 downwards
before there were any huge macro events.
Oh, yeah.
I think you said it about a year ago, to be honest.
Yep.
Yes.
So, yeah, it's actually long, but, yeah, we're going to –
It's really simple.
The four-year cycle, just look at it.
It keeps repeating over and over again.
I mean, what do you need?
Do you need a postcard from Satoshi?
I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me, I'm afraid.
And you don't think that cycle's
changing man you don't think it's changed no well it hasn't obviously
all right well i'll go with that um clem any any prognostications you want to make for us
you know you you do nothing but you you make us sadder here on the show give give us some hope
man well where should where should we be looking?
When is the end of this crappy cycle going to come around?
Right now, everyone's scared.
Projects aren't spending money, certainly not in marketing.
Good, Elena's back.
I'll go back over to Elena, too.
What can you add to this that maybe ameliorates some of our suffering?
Look, as Sally Payne says, right, hope is not a strategy, right?
Right.
Now, as I said very clearly, don't forget about the past.
That may be over, right?
And maybe there's another cycle.
You can see that coming.
So you know it's coming.
So what more do you want?
Now, the other thing that I said, which people should forget the past,
I'm talking about the future.
The use of new projects that are probably being written right now,
when that new cycle starts, if you can get them early,
you will make a ton of money.
I mean, what more do you want to know?
I mean, oh, do you want to know what they are exactly and who's running them?
No, you've got to do that yourself.
There will be a whole new generation.
There'll be a whole new epoch of crypto that's coming
and it won't be leaning on the past.
It will be leaning on what's coming around,
which is obviously AI is going to be a thing,
but there'll be other things.
Yeah, and they'll be not niche.
They'll be much broader.
That's why they'll be very big they'll be much broader that's why
they'll be very big and you've got to get them early but if you're hoping that bitcoin's going
to go to a million dollars and that's your strategy well you've got a long way well eric
trump said that it would clem he'd never lie to me no No, okay, I changed my thesis in part of it.
If Eric Trump said so, we must assume that it's 100% true.
Elena, what do you think?
Yes, for the question where are we in the market,
I think we're kind of in this stabilized phase,
but it is kind of hanging because if there's another, if there's something else that happens.
I love having you on my show.
You've had some connection problems.
You have to come back again soon
because I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I would definitely close up the show with them,
but I think we lost you again.
Hey, Justin.
Okay.
You know, spaces is always a bit of an adventure, folks.
We can never exactly tell what the evil gods
of Twitter spaces are going to send
our way it's always complete chaos sometimes they're kind sometimes they're not but in the
meantime uh you know i encourage all of you to uh to keep holding on and keep your eyes open
and keep following the information about the market you know the good news and a really macro sense is that our inflection point to have
Bitcoin really go down to zero, I think was like maybe five or seven years ago. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
