I'm inviting now all the guests, and we're going to start really soon.
Alright, I'm ready, you should be able to speak now.
Very nice to meet you, too, and thank you for inviting me.
Okay, also, Caldera should be able to speak.
Okay, you guys should have the rights.
Let's wait for, so let's wait, first of all, for Cartesi.
Yeah, Cartesi and Andy from Derola.
Let me also invite our state capital community.
While we are waiting for our other guests and more listeners to join us,
what's your view on the current market, guys?
How is your portfolio performing?
It's never enough, you know.
I said it's never enough.
I think we all need more ETH in our wallet.
We also need more gelato in our wallets, right?
Yeah, market is doing well for me, so I'm pretty happy.
Market is green, and I'm happy.
Jinjin to everyone who is joining us.
We are waiting a few minutes for Cartesi and Andy from Derola to join us,
and then we're going to kickstart the panel.
What's up, guys? Happy Friday.
How is your day going, sir?
Pretty well, now that you're here, big dogs.
Just getting ready for Denver.
We're flying out on Sunday, so very excited.
On my side, I'm pretty good.
I guess I can speak also for the other guests.
Am I the only one who's not going to Denver?
All right, so we are all here.
We've got Gilata, Caldera, Cartesi, and Outlayer.
So I guess we can kickstart the panel.
And in the meantime, we are recording it.
And if anyone else will join us, we will be glad to have them.
So I guess we can start in the first five to ten minutes
with a brief introduction about each one of the speakers.
So we can go with maybe...
Let's go with Caldera, since I haven't heard cats talking yet.
I also just want to make sure.
Am I coming through clear?
Good to see you again, Handy.
I'm Matt, co-founder, CEO of Caldera.
Caldera is a RAS provider, just like everyone else on this panel.
We help people launch dedicated roll-ups using the Opie Stack,
Arbitrum Orbit, and the Polygon CDK.
We've been around for two years now, or almost two years,
Since then, you know, we've built out a ton of infrastructure,
our capabilities, you know, of running roll-ups.
We currently have around five or six chains on Mainnet,
the biggest one of which is Manta,
which is the third-largest L2 in the Ethereum space,
but also have a bunch of other teams that we're working with.
Some of the ones you guys might know are Rarry Chain,
so like the Rarible NFT chain, Kinto,
which is a regulated KYC chain, Lute,
which is, you know, like the Lute chain for the Adventure Gold DAO.
If people remember Lute from last cycle,
you know, we've got a bunch more that we're working with.
Caldera, we really focus on kind of like having a hands-on approach
with the teams that we work with.
So we are often doing a lot of customizations to the chain.
We've done all sorts of things like, you know,
pre-compile support for custom gas tokens into roll-ups, et cetera.
And really, like, we're just trying to accelerate the modular space
and adoption of roll-ups.
So really, really good to be here.
Awesome, sir. Thanks for your introduction.
We can go with Gerato, maybe.
Sure thing, hey, guys. Great to be here.
Hi to the rest of the Rasp provider,
good to see you, and won't be in Denver,
so we'll only be on this space here.
But we have a big team there, so if you are around,
definitely say hi to our booth in East Denver next week.
Yeah, so Gerato is Web3's sweetest roller service platform.
And yeah, we've worked together with projects that are using us for the roll-ups,
such as like Asta, who will be the first Polygon 3K chain launching on the act layout.
I think actually today, I think we're going to a production with them today,
LISC is another example for the AP Super Chain and many more in the pipeline.
And in addition to just operating the roll-ups,
how we sort of differentiate ourselves is we believe that projects need
like a proper end-to-end infrastructure solution
where the roll-up is just one part.
And what we've been doing over the past four years
is we've been becoming one of the, sort of,
also widely used Web3 developer platforms in the space,
offering industry-leading solutions around smart contract automation,
accessing off-chain data on your L2s.
For example, if you want to build like price oracles for your DFA applications
or if you want to push randomness on-chain for your sort of gambling
or gaming applications, as well as if you want to provide a really cool UX
using our sort of account abstraction services.
And yeah, super eager to be here and looking forward to the panel.
Perfect. Let's go with Alt-Layer now.
Hi, my name is Amrit. I handle operations at Alt-Layer.
We started off in 2021 and at the same time as many of the other,
And we started at the time when OPstack wasn't actually there.
And so we felt like it would be good to have a way to be able to spin
Cosmos-style chains, but in the theorem world.
And one way to do this was to do basically launch roll-ups, right?
But because OPstack wasn't there, we actually built out our own implementation
of optimism, essentially, with fraud proof and everything.
And then a month later or two months later, I think, OPstack came into being.
So the point was that we started off as a stack builder, per se.
And one cool thing that we started with in the initial days
was this idea of what we call disposable roll-ups.
Basically, you could spin up a roll-up and you could destroy them
when you don't need them anymore.
So imagine something like arbitrary optimism where when you put,
let's say, state commitment on Ethereum, at that point,
you basically shut down the system.
Then we expanded, obviously, to RAS
because it was kind of a natural extension to what we're doing
with OPstack coming into being. Arbitrum orbit was there.
We put almost every roll-up stack out there.
Very recently, we started CKStack as well,
which is the stack from the CKSync team.
And the one feedback that we're constantly getting from our clients was,
hey, it's good that you can manage and run node and host nodes for us.
But what if we wanted to bring this whole infrastructure clean house
at some point in the future?
Or what's the way in which we could get our community more involved
rather than having a closed RAS vendor offering these services to us?
So we felt like it would be good to expand that service
So we started working on this idea with the IGLA team
that we call restake roll-up, where basically,
the idea is to take a certain stack like OPstack
and build a framework around it that allows people,
or that allows roll-ups to build certain capabilities around,
let's say, decentralized sequencing, faster finality,
interoperability, and whatnot.
So far, we have, I would say, 25 clients.
And the idea is to hopefully convert them to use some of the services
that we're building now under this brand umbrella of restake roll-ups.
That was a comprehensive overview.
Let's go with the last guest, which is Karthasi.
I'm from the Karthasi ecosystem.
And what Karthasi is, we're a little bit different
than some of the other participants in this space.
We are an LTM that's capable of running Linux
and applications running on Linux.
We're also kind of like big believers in, let's say,
distributed roll-ups as a service because I believe that
Blockchain and anything that falls with it
basically creates marketplaces out of everything.
So my belief is in the future, just like we're seeing with storage
and, for example, in Filecoin, that yes, you can deliver services,
for example, for storage, roll-ups, and so on.
The margins are going to go really, really low.
There's going to be real competition.
And people are going to find login.
We'll have a billion app chains out there that need these kind of services.
And we really have to be competitive in this market
as kind of like different companies offering services
because in the end of the day, these chains can actually potentially move.
Let's say take their service, let's say take their work
for your roll-ups as a service provider elsewhere
and basically go where they can get the best pricing, the best offering,
I want to see what kind of like the big competition
on the roll-ups as a service space looks like.
And I think it's going to be in distributed roll-ups as a service.
Perfect, perfect. Thanks, everyone.
Maybe also, Andy, you want to introduce yourself
for those who don't know you since we are going to co-host this panel together.
Yeah, definitely not as gigabrain and cool as these lads,
but we do a lot of education in this space
and a lot of fun conversations like this.
I know I've spoken to all four of these guys before,
and been in kind of like the earlier development cycles of rasps,
but yeah, just honestly ready to kind of kick this off.
And I think if it's cool steak, I'm just going to ask the first question,
which is basically like I'm personally quite excited
about the addition of all these elements of your rasps,
which is like alternative DA solutions, VMs,
different interoperability ideas.
I'm just trying to figure out how we can expand all of these rasps offers
and designs to incorporate every possible option.
how are you guys thinking about incorporating different parts
of like this roll up stack into your rasps
and like what kind of like technical capabilities are needed for that?
And then also I guess is like why is there a demand for this?
So are you thinking about this?
Are you seeing this and like how would this kind of work?
Maybe we'll start with Matt and then kind of if you guys have some thoughts,
just feel free to piggyback off of Matt and we'll kind of fill in as we need.
So I think and I want to make sure I'm getting the question right,
but basically what you're asking about is like with all the new developments
happening in the space, like how are rasps providers
kind of like integrating new things as they get developed?
Yeah, that was like a five part question.
But yeah, like how are you guys thinking about integrating all these different
like parts of the roll up stack that are coming out?
And is there is there, you know, demand for it?
Yeah. So this is something that like we've been highly opinionated about
from the beginning of being like one of the first folks
to kind of be like an early adopter of all these new roll up technologies.
You know, I, you know, I guess all da you mentioned that right.
We were actually one of the reasons why we started the company
was we read the Celestia white paper before it was even called Celestia.
It was called Basie Ledger.
And that actually inspired us to build what we're building right now.
We've always been really, really bullish about all these modular components
We've been one of the first to integrate espresso on the decentralized
We're having conversations with other teams in that space.
We're quick to adopt new roll up stacks, right?
The operating principle for us.
I think it's just developer choice.
So you asked about demand.
Like, you know, I think one of the really cool things about the crypto space.
Builders are highly opinionated and builders, you know,
like these things tend to be, you know, multipolar.
Some people will want the CDK.
Some people will want orbit.
Some people want, want the OP stack, you know,
and same thing for all the other da layers sequencing layers, etc.
orbit. Some people want DOP stack, you know, and same thing
for all the other DA layers, sequencing layers, etc. So our
view is just like, we want to give folks the most choice, we
want to take signals from the market as to like where where
we want to create demand, right? Because we, in a sense, we are
offering a certain wrapper around a certain SDK, right? And
so in the end, the underlying SDK provider is the one that
creates demand for us. And we become like the distribution
partner or the implementation partner for the underlying SDK.
So we kind of piggyback into less of the BD cycles or the BD
underlying SDK team might be doing. So for example, you know,
you could have a DAP builder that is very engaged in the
arbitrary ecosystem. And they want for example, certain, they
want arbitrary orbit with a certain configuration, for
example, let's say, the DAC committee that arbitrary office,
right? Similarly, for example, if you look at OP stack, they
have the own client base, or the DAP base that they track or push
towards us. So I think our role is one to facilitate, kind of
be a bridge between a DAP builder, and a certain SDK
provider, right? So we become then like a distribution partner
that helps those people who are building stacks to kind of take
off some of these, you know, requests and questions that may
come from these DAP. So imagine if you're building a DAP, and
you may have questions about how to set up a sequence, or I'm
not able to work this out, you kind of we become the partner to
help and solve these questions for them. Now, coming back to
the do the different conviction, yes, as men were saying, it all
comes from demand. So if someone wants, or if there's enough
demand for a certain configuration, so for example,
let's say, arbiter morbid with let's say, EigenDA, even though
they're not on, EigenDA is not on test many quite yet, we create
and we help in some cases actually build some of that
internally as well. So for example, we are closely working
with Eigen team on making sure that the end to end system
actually works. And we have tested that internally before we
can go and offer to our clients. So sometimes it's of course, the
underlying team understands the stack much better than we do. But
in many cases, we can provide a helping hand. Because we know,
in many cases, the demand that's coming from the clients, right?
So the answer is yes, we see all sorts of demands where people
asking for a certain VM, asking for a certain DLA asking for a
certain, you know, shared sequencer and whatnot. And our
goal is to kind of piece them together, you know, and then
together and provide them to them in life.
Awesome. I would like to take it up, take it up from here and ask
you since you said that RAS are not the are just the distributor
partners, so the bridge. Like my question is, when you are
developing your idea, right? When when is it like better? How
can I say it? Basically, let's let's say it like this. I have a
friend who wants to build a tokenization platform, right? And
he said, I want to build my own layer to and I reply to him.
Look, there are some rest solutions that make it easier
for you to build your own roll up. So my question is, when is
developing your own roll up a better solution than building
your idea on a constantly dated chain like Ethereum? Like when
is it better to go with RAS rather than building your idea on
Yeah, maybe I can start it, but I don't want to take too much
time. So I'll let others speak as well. Very quickly, I think
it there are different factors that come into play, right? One
is, in many cases, you want strong composability with other
dApps, right? And at least at this point, interoperability
across roll ups is not that great, right? And so if let's
see if you're thinking about, let's say a DAP, email is I'm
like uniswarp, right? Which requires strong composability
requires strong liquidity that comes from different places you
you'd rather be and you should rather be on a general purpose
chain like Ethereum, Arbitrum, Optimism and others. The
scenarios where you would like to customize because, for
example, they're gaming applications where people have
built fully on chain games where the game contracts so complex or
let's say so heavy in the sense that even if you like it's so
big in the sense that you can't even go and deploy that on a
general purpose chain because of the limits. So you have to have
an infrastructure or platform where you can customize some of
those limits so that you can even deploy those contracts on a
chain that you that you have that you want to run on. So I
would say they're different because I think in some cases,
there are considerations on you know, I'm close to a certain
community and therefore I want to use that specific stack
because I want to have my own chain. So I think and then of
course, you know, the ability to let's say capture value and
mother is so I would say there are different considerations
that I get, but I'll stop here and let other people chime in as
Yeah, maybe maybe from my side, I think it's all about how
mature the project is. If you're just starting out with an
idea, then you should definitely go to like an existing public
sort of general purpose chain such as like polygon POS or
arbitrum optimism mainnet. Why is that? Because, well, you just
have to write a smart contract, you deploy it. And most
importantly, you have all the infrastructure on these chains
that you need in order to get going, right, you have indexes,
you got oracles, you got funders, paymasters, all these
kind of things that are deployed on these chains. And you don't
have to rebuild or get these infrastructure providers onto
your L2 that you're spinning up, because they cost money to
support your chain. And as a figure just starting out, you
probably want to minimize cost, right. But as you grow, as you
get adoption, and as you might have raised some money, maybe
you even have some revenues in your in your app, then at some
point, it will make a ton of sense to move to your own L2,
you can have much more control over the throughput,
customizations, we had mentioned around like custom gas tokens,
you can think of token utility, all these kind of things come in
very handy. So I see it all as like kind of like evolution of
your project. And like the first sort of phase of the project is
probably not starting on an L2. Like maybe like our hope is that
in like a couple of years, you actually everyone can start on
their own L2 and you can have all the infrastructure deployed on
there from the get go something that we are very sort of focused
on on our side, we want to sort of make it as cheap and as easy
to spin these up so everyone can do it. But relatively right now
this is not the case. So we're still in the we're still in the
world where only more well funded projects can actually
afford to have their own L2.
For sure. On that note, some of the projects that you guys are
seeing like we don't really see and I say we like state capital,
the roll up people, traders, speculators, investors, etc. We
see things as they're like already, you know, like done in
past development stage, you guys kind of get these projects that
like some of the early stages. I'm curious what some of the
interesting innovations that you guys have seen that are like
coming to market soon. Is there like, like I've heard rumors of
something like of like infinite TPS or like a roll up that it
doesn't have gas or I can let or Emirates got these restaking
roll ups like like what are some of the innovative roll up team
ideas that you've seen recently? It that you know that you can
share that you feel comfortable sharing that like are exciting
that are a bit different than just kind of like the typical roll
up. And maybe I'll start with you, Hilmar, if you have an
Sure thing. So we are very bullish at gelato on zero gas
roll ups. So basically, finally getting to a user experience
where you don't have to deal with like holding native assets
anymore, you can just click buttons, you can just send
transactions without having to pay for gas like this, this is
an issue that we have been like dealing with or trying to solve
also on public blockchains for like, three years now, roughly.
And one of the reasons why we excited about that too, this is
because it gives you superpowers as an application developer to
actually finally have these sort of gas, zero gas roll ups or
zero gas blockchains or applications. And this, of
course, opens up a lot of possibilities, it greatly
enhances UX, but it also sort of introduces challenges, right?
Because like the holes, like these public blockchains that
everyone can access were actually built in a way where
hey, gas is a sort of spam protection mechanism, how can
you actually avoid just people going crazy, you know, with
airdrop farming, people just love to spam networks, and not
pay for them, right? So you have to kind of get creative here and
try to solve these issues. But it is really worth it. And yeah,
we are we are just super bullish on this, because you can
imagine, if you think about like a deck, so like a perp decks,
right, that will, we have one that will soon launch on our
Aeroplastic Service platform. And it can really get very, very
close to a centralized exchange like trading experience, right?
You go there, you click a button, you place a trade, it's
like sub second latency, no gas has to be paid. But it has all
the goodness of an L2, self custody, you can exit. If it's
a ZK roll up, right, you actually can have sort of
economical exit to the L1 very quickly. And yeah, all these
kind of goodies come come to you and your in your customers. And
yeah, this is, I think, one of the really cool ones. And there
are many others. But yeah, I'll let the other guys here also.
Maybe I can add an observation that I mean, it's probably
visible, but not that visible quite yet. Which is especially in
the context of Eigenle and restaking, you could see that,
you know, you have, I don't know, at least five, if not more
LRT projects out there. For those who don't know, you
basically stake your Ether or you mistake your LST and you get
this token that's called LRT. Essentially, it's a token that
represents your position. And so basically, basically, what
we're seeing is a trend of people, people, people building
a new roll ups for those that are not specifically. So my
feeling is that every LRT project will have its own role.
We have another guest, right? Yeah, my son is no worries. No
worries. All right. I'm curious to hear Caldera and Cartesi
about this topic. If you guys have any opinion?
Yeah, I think basically, the fact that that we can use
Ethereum as a trust anchor and kind of like do all these
different LVM opens up completely different
possibilities of what we consider applications today,
like, like, one of the most famous things I'm most
excited about that's kind of going on at the moment is that
that is essentially possible to run a bunch of parallel with
five machines in this particular case, run actual calculations
of LVM making kind of like AI like style stuff. And I also
like to touch just a little bit on the zero gas thing just for
the moment that zero gas is amazing, but there's always a
cost to be paid. And because there's a cost to be paid, in
this particular case, I think it will end up with very quickly
that the chains are paying their service providers a little bit
like, let's say an association plays their lawyers or their
bank, in this particular case, and they can also fire their
service providers. So I think that as more of these kind of
things where the chain is kind of like the one paying for what
the app in this particular case paying for the users
activities, we'll see more and more that let's say, that
change will act more sovereign in this particular way and not
care particularly about let's say what a role of a service
that may be attached to, because it will be close to
associations, there will be more closer to governance, more
closer to upgradability. Because even if we're looking at stuff
like average from today, I mean, it's basically a governed role
up in this particular case, and stuff like with the stylus has
made it to mainnet yet because still passing through governance
in this particular case. So I think we'll see many innovations
not just to carry technology, because I mean, there's lots
of technology out there. But there's also a lot of innovation
we need to do around governance, because we end up very
quickly and why should I trust your role up as a service
company around my services?
Yeah, I don't have too much to add to what was already said. I
think, in general, like, we're also just very excited about
execution layer changes. I think, you know, people when we when
we started the company a couple of years ago, we were very
bullish about the idea of people making little
modifications to the roll up, you know, custom pre compiles,
changing, yeah, the gas logic, as mentioned, maybe using a
different token for gas. And like now it's starting to, you
know, I think people are becoming more comfortable with
those types of modifications. And we're starting to see that
come into fruition with some really, really cool designs. I
think like one thing to highlight as well is is sort of
like native yield generating assets, blast has kind of really
opened up the floodgates there. And we're seeing a lot of folks
building sort of like similar constructions on top of the
roll ups that that we're launching.
All right, sounds good. Sounds good. I will throw at you a more
specific question right now, which is about the next
Ethereum upgrade, the IP 4844 or Duncan upgrade? That was more
of a personal question, because I was really curious about it.
So I have basically read that even after this upgrade, I'll
do layer tools will have lower gas fees, and etc. Posting data
on Ethereum in general will keep being too expensive, or at
least it will keep being too expensive, compared to other data
availability solutions. So my my doubt was, is Ethereum
automatically out of the discussion when it comes to data
availability layers and scalability? Or what do you guys
I think that I think that the next Ethereum upgrade is
fantastic, because we get the point evaluation pre compile,
which basically opens up ability to evaluate KCT
commitments, which is what this whole prototype sharing kind of
like helping in this particular case. But I think that because
the aging P2P network of the Ethereum, the data availability
of things like espresso and Celestia and so on, for most,
let's say roll ups, I have chains out there, it's just
going to be much better for them to kind of use that directly.
And, and I think that there will be a fight, let's say
between, let's say the bigger roll ups that are posted to
Ethereum to basically occupy these blocks, blocks that are
being posted to Ethereum space. So I don't think it's going to
make a big difference from, let's say, relevant service
point of view, because many different teams will probably
make a small difference for, let's say, bigger roll ups. But
it just makes some things like, let's say optimistic data
availability evaluation easier, but I don't see it as much of a
And I believe that I think whatever space comes becomes
available, it will be taken away quite quickly. I think every
single time we have seen that when Ethereum gives a little
bit more scalability to dApps, that gets consumed quite
quickly. So I believe that, you know, of course, there are more
upgrades that needs to be done to Ethereum. But my my thinking
is that whatever comes after the upgrade, I think that will
completely get absorbed quite quickly.
So will you guys just automatically support that
upgraded version? Like, is there anything that you guys have to
do on your code base or like just update some? Like, yeah,
like, honestly, above my head, but like, how does that work for
you guys, after the upgrade work goes through?
Should be pretty seamless, at least on our end. I mean, one of
the great things about using, you know, existing roll up
stacks is like, you know, the OP team and the polygon team and
the arbitrary team, they they've all kind of handled, you
know, making sure that that their stacks are compatible with
the upgrades. So for our customers, it's going to be a
Nice, cool. Yes, it's interesting. And for the
listeners, and also for everyone here, there's been some rumors
about like, Ethereum L1 fees being reduced in some capacity
because of Dancun, but from my understanding, it's just Ethereum
L2 fees is like the key recipient of the lower fees. Is
that correct? There's nothing to do with the L1 here, right? Or
Well, probably, and maybe there are some sort of gas changes in
this new update, which I'm not aware of, but I guess what they
could be referring to is that all the like, if you look at the
sort of gas guzzlers on L1, most of them are actually like L2
sequences, right? So Avogem, optimism and all the other L2s,
they're spamming Ethereum with a ton of transactions and using
sort of like the regular block space for data availability,
which is just crazy expensive, right? And basically, what
happens now, there's this new plot market coming up new space.
And these L2s are planned to move to that new sort of new
space that gets available for them. And this means that the
demand for block space will be greatly reduced on Ethereum. And
obviously, usually what happens is that they sort of get eaten up
again, to an extent, but like, since L2s have been consuming a
lot of space on Ethereum, fees in general should go down for
the foreseeable future until like, bigger apps come out there
that sort of consume them again. So I think maybe that's what
Yeah, makes sense. Cool. Stik, do you have another question? I
know that you had a couple.
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. So the next one was more about near
near the layer one, which I have seen again, that is competing
with Celestia and Ethereum for the leader in the data
availability sector. So I just wanted to hear from you guys.
What's your view on near Celestia? And how do they
compare to themselves? Since I'm not a technical person, so I
was just curious to know your your opinion about them.
I haven't dug deeper into near but I think near DA is is
They've had it live for a long time.
Yeah, so I have a bit of contrarian opinion here,
probably that that I don't really see, let's say, the DA as
relevant, especially as things like icon layers coming out,
because the data availability space changes so completely.
Celestia got to some extent, lucky that they're kind of like
pre restaking in this particular case, but they're not actually
at security going into data availability, just be so much
more intensive as restaking and EBS has kind of come along. And
I think it's worth noting that quite a lot of kind of like
projects actually that are doing data availability at the moment
kind of started out a little bit as a layer one. Like for
example, especially was doing something that basically where
they found out that it had extremely good properties for
data availability. And then combined with restaking, basically
you get the security that you need. But I think that basically
that it's, it's maybe a little bit late to the game, say to
But I have a theory on, you know, the, the, the usage of DA, I
believe that when a DAP, like from a DAP perspective, the entry
point is usually an execution layer, right, so stacks. And my
theory is that eventually many of these stacks will be, and by
the way, if you look around almost every single stack, it
already has some sort of a DA, I mean, it's not maybe a celestial
idea, but everyone has some sort of a DAC built in, right. My
theory is that a lot of DAPs, their entry point will be an
essential layer, so basically a roll up stack. And they will
eventually decide where or which DLA gets used. So if let's say
for example, if I'm arbitrary orbit, or let's say OP stack, or
whichever stack you pick, there's very little, I mean, of
course, there's, you know, importance to be more important
to be modular and whatnot, and giving people flexibility and
whatnot. But from a business standpoint, it feels to me that
from a roll up stack perspective, there will be, if
they do end up building their own DAC, or some some version of
DA that captures value for the token, or some some some sort of
value capture, it'd be difficult for the roll up stacks
to push a certain DLA. But what I mean, a certain DLA, like an
alternative DLA that's not a part of their, their inherent
stack per se. So I'm not sure how the whole thing will play
out, maybe Celestia will win, and you know, along with other
DLS. But from business perspective, it feels like a
stack, a roll up stack is the entry point, and they end up
deciding a lot of other things that goes down the line.
Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting take. Um, yeah. So do you, do
you think that that, like, do you think it's gonna be a
political game? Like, or is it like a who's in like, like, who's
lobbying who or who's kind of supporting you, like, like, in
I don't know if there'd be that, but I mean, I mean, at least you
can see that, for example, Celestia has its own roll kit,
which is, which is basically an execution layer, I think avail
is building its own some sort of execution layer as well. So it
does feel like, you know, DLS are building something on the
side, you know, to bring execution, or to capture that
brings the dApps eventually. Because in the end, both
exhibition layers, and let's say, DLS, they both have the
common, I guess, client or user base, which is basically dApps.
And my feeling is that almost every single DLA will end up
building some version of stack or be aligned with some stack.
And the other will will happen where the stack provider will
potentially be aligned with some specific DLA because they like
them or whatever, and they will promote it. So there will be
something of that kind, even though, of course, everything
more modular, you can still go and use or be stacked with any
any DLA you want. There'll be some some, I think, game or
business game that will get played eventually.
Yeah, I think I agree with that. There's an incentive for
execution there. And framework developers to sort of push their
favorite data availability layer if it's like their own one, or
if it's just like another one they're part of with, I think,
I think that will probably happen. I think also, I think
what's important is like the whole point of like, the A is to
make it very, very cheap, right? So I don't think the A layers
from just like a sort of revenue or fee generation point of view.
So much like settlement layers are like interesting businesses
per se. And obviously, they're very important. And they're
hyped up. But you I think you need to, like, create a more
end to end solution in order to actually service customers and
then sort of have recurring revenues that makes sense. And
in general, like what what is happening and what should happen
right is that sequencing fees will go down dramatically, data
availability costs will go down dramatically. And why is that
because well, we are sort of commoditizing block space and
making it very, very cheap to build scalable secure by free
application, which is great, right? This is the whole point
of why we're doing this. And where the real sort of value
lies at the end of the day, is it wasn't like the only scarce
resource in this industry, which is liquidity, right? So people
will want to fight over this already happening, right?
Everyone's fighting over liquidity in the space. Because
if you have liquidity, then you have network effects. And this
is what people really want. It's why theorem is still the
kingmaker, even though it's very inefficient, and it's it's very
expensive. But it has all the liquidity and liquidity attracts
other liquidity, and we're still building the internal value here.
So yeah, I think that's, that's probably and yeah, and you have
to figure out as a project how to be close to that.
I think it's also very interesting to see that that
let's say the different data bill, both layers to some
extent have a different problem in differentiating as it very
close easily go gets down to kind of like cost of data
publishing, let's say the amount of bandwidth, the settlement
times and so on. I mean, I mean, it's fantastic from a competition
point of view, because I mean, I'm all here for the gigabit per
second, kind of like data availability for applications.
But we have seen already that let's say the difference
between let's say, I can do a and let's say, for example,
on a stack level is actually not that different. Because
basically, people can almost use the exact same software and
just change on the sequence on this particular case, how we
deal with it, and it's going to play out very, very
interesting in the overtime as well, I think.
I mean, if I may add one little thing to this, when I guess
conversation is, as far as I can see, almost every single
integration that has happened between, let's say, DALA and
certain, let's say, Rolex stack has been on the fork of that
stack. So far, it has not been integral part of the stack,
right? So the stack doesn't offer that natively, is what I
mean, right? It's always a part of a fork of OPstack that
offers, let's say, some other DALA, right? So I think that's
also important to basically see how that evolves over time
where how OPstack offers a more generic interface that
allows people to integrate but stays in the kind of mainnet
setting, not a kind of fork setting so that the main OPstack
framework. And in a way, to be modular and to be much more
open, to be much more transparent, to be much more
neutral, they have to offer, all these Rolex stacks have to
offer that common interface that other people, other DALA
providers can plug in. But at the moment, at least, it's
not the case, as far as I can see.
All right, all right. Let's go with, so thanks for your
comprehensive overviews and opinions. It's pretty
interesting to hear you talk about this topic. And
my next question is actually about, I'm not sure if you
have any opinion about this, but I would like to throw it and
see it. So it's about the Bitcoin ecosystem, right? There
is stacks, you know, the protocol, which is making its
Nakamoto upgrade in, if I'm not wrong, either in March, so in a
month from now, or either in April. And yeah, my general
question was, what do you think about the DeFi ecosystem on the
Bitcoin chain? Could we see our development similar to what we
had with Ethereum in 2020, with the DeFi summer and all that
development on Ethereum? And eventually, I'm not sure also,
if you guys have ever planned to integrate somehow Stacks SDK,
I'm not sure if Stacks has its own SDK, but if they do have it,
have you ever considered to integrate it? And yeah, in
general, what do you think about the Bitcoin ecosystem and how
it's developing since it has grown pretty, pretty much over
the last year with ordinals and all these, all the many
updates? Maybe, yeah, Kurt, I see that you want to.
Yeah, I know. So I've actually been dabbling around with things
like bit.vm. I can't speak to Stacks in this particular case.
But basically, let's say off-chain computation is pretty
much coming to Bitcoin, but there's a lot of restrictions
because of Bitcoin script that kind of makes things difficult.
But because of things like that, basically, it can take almost
up to 35 weeks for, let's say, a verification game to kind of
like proceed on Bitcoin. And it kind of like hinders quite a lot
of useful applications. But it has become possible as of, I
think, 14 days ago, something like that, that people were
actually running with the verification with zero
knowledge proof. And I think that will allow a lot of very
interesting applications combined with, for example, data
development players, or let's say on-chain posting of
Bitcoin. But there's very little amount of teams out there
that are actually doing something actual practical on,
let's say, Bitcoin roll-ups. There's some very excellent
Telegram channels called roll-ups of Bitcoin that I
recommend people can attempt. And I think that it will be an
interesting space, but the bottom line kind of like Bitcoin
script is really hindering quite a lot of things. And the
good work that for example, as doing a random op-cat is quite
important also to make famous solutions in this space. But
it's a, I mean, there's a lot of interest because obviously,
like let's say the payment fees and transaction fees and
Bitcoin are going down and people want to kind of like have
something that actually let's say make use of this Bitcoin
network as well. So let's see how it turns out.
Yeah, I'm also quite bullish and interested in like the
Bitcoin L2 space. I haven't looked at anything in
particular, but like from a thesis kind of level, it seems
to make a lot of sense. And in a lot of the sort of like builder
founder communities I'm in, I'm seeing like more and more folks
building on Bitcoin, you know, things like ordinals, NFTs,
stacks, etc. I think like the thing that we're seeing and one
of the bets we made, you know, early on as a company is like
to be very, very strongly tied in with the EVM just because
that's where, you know, a lot of the developer activity is.
And I think like that's sort of played out, you know,
the cycle like a lot of the innovation is still happening
on the EVM. Of course, we'll have all PMs, but it's very hard
to like get an all PM to critical mass. You have, you
know, maybe like, you know, you have Solana and then you have
like the MOOC ecosystems to some extent. Cartisi might be a
special case because you guys, you know, support existing
programming languages. So I think that's really cool too.
But the thing that gives me a lot of pause in the Bitcoin
space is it seems like a lot of these developments are
happening. They're trying to kind of make their own thing
and they're happening separately from a lot of the
developments that are happening in the Ethereum space.
And I think it might be hard to, you know, convince
developers to switch onto an entirely new platform with
entirely new language. I think that's one of the limiting
factors for stacks. But regardless, like I'm very
interested in it and it does seem like things are starting
to coalesce there. I just want to add one thing about that
over the VM. In, let's say in the bit VM community, and let's
say roll up space, people are more interested in what has
kind of like been good in the Ethereum space as well as they
are, let's say, so much at the Ethereum. So that's, for
example, Chainway, which is kind of like built the EVM Bitcoin
roll up with that. So there's definitely groups that I like
pushing in that direction for developer adoption.
Well, since Kat's told, you have just mentioned
old VMs and said how Cartesi is like a special case apart
since they allow for existing programming languages. Like I
wanted to understand from Cartesi, why does having a
Linux virtual machine, if I'm not wrong, gives you a
competitive advantage somehow, like I'm not a developer, right?
So it's both an advantage and disadvantage, right? Because
that's, that's, from one point of view, I mean, everybody here
is kind of like begging the same 23,000 EVM developers to
basically get to a solution, right? But the thing is, the
pie of developers is not growing growing anymore. And my stance,
at least, is that why does this have this space has to be so
completely different from computing? I mean, why can't it
be more like actually, let's say, using the last 60 years of
let's say, let's say, computer science understanding,
compilers tooling languages, instead of, let's say, the last
what, seven years of almost high priest like languages like
Solidity and EVM, why people can't just at this particular
point in time, write things in Rust, or C++, or the
JavaScript, etc. Because we really need more developers
with more data, more innovation, because now we have no excuse
for execution environments, we have no excuse for data
availability, we have no excuse for costs. So if blockchain is
anything worth, we should be able to get these developers in
and Solidity and EVM is not it.
Well, I missed the last five seconds. Sorry.
Yeah, sorry, my interconnection was bit off. But I was basically
saying that that if we want to kind of grow the pie of
developers, basically, I don't think that Solidity and EVM is
it anymore. Like, we are trying and we are trying to push, but
it doesn't happen anymore. And that's where we think we have an
interesting, let's say, advantage in that regard.
Okay, okay, I got it. So the Linux VM is like a solution to
grow the pie of developers. Yes. Understood, understood.
Interesting. I think if you know, the whole point of the
rule of centric roadmap in the team context is that it allows
people to move execution out of it. The moment execution moves
out of it, it gives you the liberty and flexibility to
experiment with other things, right? So I think it's it's it's
natural for us to say, okay, well, Solidity is something that
maybe not the best language out there in the world, but this is
something that people have gotten used to. But now that
you're moving the execution out of it, you can actually
experiment. And that's kind of the reason why we are seeing,
you know, people building, you know, different kinds of VM,
and potentially could be attached to with him. For
example, there was this EOSM project, you know, back in the
day, that was completely scrapped. No one did anything.
And now, it wasn't based on getting a new revival. So I
think that rule of centric roadmap has also pushed some of
that, you know, hidden, I guess, I guess, you know, idea that
you should have different kinds of VMs. And I think that has
definitely been enabled by that.
Yeah, I mean, I thought this tweet the other day, yesterday
was like, let's onboard 50,000 or more new non crypto native
developers to the space by the end of this year by by the
beginning of 2025. And through I wrote it, I was like, hmm, that
seems a little bit unfeasible. But then I was like, we have so
many people that are building the space. And, you know, we've
been kind of in the dumps a bit with the last bear market, as
well as just lack of different technologies outside of
Solidity and EVM. I mean, I don't want to count out all the
other ones that have done a fair job of paying and incentivizing
developers and using non solidity languages. But for the
most part, this EVM, EVM centered conversation, I think
generally speaking, it's, it's a, it's a feat that the broader
space should aim to get to whether it's your project that
does its part or another project is able to onboard a ton
I think for the broader idea outside of all the
technicalities, the core reason for why this this this
conversation about Bitcoin roll ups about non EVM about, you
know, DA and all these things, I generally think that it's for
the core focus of onboarding more developers into crypto, I
think that we're like very focused on like new users and
new consumers, which I think is great. But I think that
onboarding more developers through these technologies,
kind of like what Carson saying with their specifics, as well
as all the other options, and then getting these, these
developers, the tooling that each of your projects are
working on, and being like, hey, like, build cool shit, like,
like build something that people will want to use with the
infrastructure that we provided. And so it's it's if you think
about it as a numbers game, if the goal here is to make some
really, really hit consumer applications and to really grow
the space forward, each rest provider is effectively could
be thought about being valued or having value if the roll ups
that are launched on the rest succeed in, you know, a big way,
right, whether it's a direct monetary, whether it's a brand
association or all the above, and a combination of other
factors. So how do we kind of take the amount of shots on
goal, we we increase the developer capacity, bring them
into these rest providers, and then let them build cool shit.
And so to kind of bring this full circle, I think a lot of
this non EDM capability outside of all the technical
parallel parallelization, formal verification, op codes, all
these things, it's, it's like, okay, let's bring more non
crypto native devs into crypto, and let's give them a shot.
And let's let's take more chances with more manpower. And
so that's kind of like my non technical bullish thesis on
like, why non EDM is is important. And, and I think a
lot of projects should focus on that developer kind of looking
All right, that was a great explanation and opinion. So yeah,
thanks also to you and I really liked your perspective.
So now I guess we are pretty down with my questions, at least
from my side, I don't have any, the thing else to ask. I'm not
sure you and if you have anything.
Yeah, I mean, like, what's the most exciting thing that's
happening in each of your projects right now that you guys
are super excited about? And if you can't share like direct
alpha, like what's something in the space that you're very
excited about? Or both maybe Hilmar, Matt, Amrit and Carson,
let's end on some optimism.
Yeah, let's start let's start the we like to call it the rest
battle or the pitching session. So each one of you guys, if you
want to share any alpha development, bullish metrics,
whatever you want about your project in like, two to three
Yeah, I will start I have to bounce now as well. I've got
another call. But yeah, I think what I'm bullish on is, we are
seeing enterprises starting to adopt L2s. And not like only
web-renator projects, we are onboarding the first couple
right now. And these are really just like big companies in a
traditional space that are now seeing roll-ups as a technology
that could actually leverage to build their first web free
application. So super bullish on this. Also on like compliance
point of views, L2s are very interesting for them. So yeah,
that's kind of like my bull case right now. And thanks a lot
again for having me on the on the panel here. I need to
unfortunate to bounce. So thanks, guys.
Yep. Thanks. Thanks, sir.
Yeah, maybe I'll go as well. Because I also have a meeting
that's starting right now. Yeah, for us, as I mentioned
previously, the most bullish thing is just the level of
experimentation that's happening. I think like developers
are getting more and more comfortable with a stack,
they're getting more and more comfortable with making
execution level changes. And we're, you know, we're seeing
it with blast, we're seeing it with, you know, teams that are
trying to integrate like native randomness functions, or native
account abstraction, or, you know, like native, native yield.
And it's just like, there's, you know, that one of the
questions I think people had, like, you know, three to four
quarters ago was just like, with all these L2s, are they all
going to be carbon copies of each other? What is there going
to be any technical differentiation at all? And I
think what we're seeing is like, we're going to, you know, very
quickly move into a world where like, you know, credibly, there
will be hundreds of roll ups, and those roll ups themselves
will all have like different technical selling points that
like users can then choose, choose between. So very, very,
very excited for how the space is heading. And yeah, I got
around as well. But thanks for having me on. This is really
great. For us, we are very excited about, you know, the
IKLA ecosystem, I think it has just started. And recently,
it was yesterday that they announced the, the ACCC fundraise.
So we are building in that space. So we are definitely
excited about what's happening in the IKLA ecosystem. And we
also are very bullish on kind of open ras. So ras where you
don't have vendor lock-ins, ras where anyone can come and
become your sequencer and whatnot. So we definitely are
very bullish on IKLA and how that changes role of landscape.
Yeah, so just to kind of like finish off, like, like, like, I
remember what I'm going to say about like, really excited
about what we stick to IKLA enables. I also look forward to
seeing what one of the first things we're working on is
basically a Linux VM co processor in this particular case,
because if you can stick a real, general purpose virtual
machine in pretty much anything on L1 or L2, a similar kind of
pillow places, it really changed about, let's say, the
speed of which we can make these kind of like fantastic
experiments. I'm also excited about the fact that that with
things like espresso and Eigen DA, and so on, so let's just
like, like, we get this kind of like massive amount of block
space. And then like, we actually now we have a problem
that we actually need to figure out what we actually want to
fill it up with. And yeah, just in general, kind of like really
bullish about that, that this is a place where I think
especially I'll be able to really especially shine because
we get these properties that we wish we had from the start.
All right, all right. Maybe Amrit you wanted to finish?
Or you wanted to add anything else?
Okay, I suppose no. So I think we are done for our panel was a
really interesting one. A lot of insights and alpha. Andy, do you
want to ask anything else add anything? Can you hear me guys?
Is it is my mic functioning? We can hear you. Okay. I thought
I was talking with myself. So I guess we are we are done.
That's it. So thanks for caldera and I forgot the name.
Who was the other guest? Actually, caldera and gelato. Yeah.
They actually are not here, but thanks for them joining us.
Thanks for Cartes in our layer to join us. Thanks for Andy
as a representative of the Rolak for joining us. Thanks for all
the listeners. I hope you enjoyed this panel. And before
closing, I will just pitch briefly what state capital is. So
basically, state capital is both an alpha community, an alpha
gated community, and marketing and advisory agency. We run
these panels every week or every two weeks where we invite
the leaders in every sector of the DeFi space to come and
discuss the their relative sector with us. We have we have
the last panel. Today we had the LRT fighter is taking the
perpetual decks and many others and we run also AMAs with
individual projects. And as I said, we are a marketing and
advisory agency. We are pretty vertical and focused on
chaos management marketing advisory in terms of go to
market strategy, narrative creation. And yeah, that's it
about us. If you want to join our community, if you're
interested in discussing with like minded deejans, investors,
traders, builders, we have any kind of person inside of our
community also Andy is in our community. So if you want to
join us, just fill out the form that you can find in our
website. And yeah, that's it about state capital. That's who
we are. And thanks again for everyone to join for everyone to
to be here. And yeah, I hope you have a great morning or
afternoon or evening or night, whatever you are in the world.
Also stay safe, don't get clapped by the market and see
you around. Thank you very much for inviting by the way. Thank
you everyone for listening in. Alright, have a great evening
night day afternoon to everyone. See you.