Perfect welcome back everybody to another episode of you know what we call
This one is actually going to be one of my favorites that I've done this year and probably won't do this year
Because Steve is a personal good friend of mine has a kill-ass kicker a kill-ass kicker doesn't make any sense
Steve has a killer morning show with cap every every morning at 8 a.m. Eastern definitely follows Steve joined to their show
Steve cap they say a ton of great stuff Steve's been grinding in this space at it left his corporate position
For the past I think two three years we can get into that. I see all those appropriate questions. I
Initially, you know invited Steve
I think was a couple weeks ago before the holidays
I know I saw that the book was being pre-ordered pre-release. There was some snippets of it
You can pick up a printer copy right now as well
I did a few days ago and Steve's been working on the book to my knowledge for a pretty lengthy time
Steve himself as an individual is impressive and I thought you know what let's get him on for an AMA
So just full disclosure Steve has not paid to be here today
I reached out to him as a friend would have month discuss this book and why I think people should pick it up and I think
You should probably grab two copies one for yourself and then one for you know
Somebody else if you care about the industry you'll do that because you want industry to move forward and moving forward is
Predicated predicated on education and that's exactly what Steve delivers on a daily basis Steve
What's going on not much appreciate you and by the way, just you know in the title, unfortunately, Scott can't make it today
initially, he was going to but the divide and conquer that is needed for this sort of thing is
Crazy as we approach the launch Scott is working on articles that are gonna go in
Harvard newsletters and and sort of events and things like that that we're working on
I'm doing a lot of the spaces media tour
We're combining for some stuff when we talk to Bloomberg and do a Google talk next week
so lots of things in the agenda, but appreciate the kind words and you having me on because
That concept of education is something that I am very passionate about
I'm sure we'll dig into on today and sort of what the books about and all that but you kind of nailed it
It's like whether you are somebody who's been in crypto since 2012 or you have never heard of Bitcoin
we tried to actually make a book that could educate everybody in some different ways and bring people along and
Sort of empower everybody in web 3 to tell the story of web 3 in a way
That's authentic and helps people understand the power of this world this software and everything that comes with it
Absolutely, Steve, I do want to say how to ruto was what we for software. What's going on?
Hey, good morning everyone. Yeah, I'm really excited
Actually me and Andrew were texting prior to the call and he told me he just purchased it
I was like, you know what? I actually I need to go buy one right now
So just got done just checked out
I'm really excited to dive into it, man
I've heard I've heard amazing things about it to be honest and obviously I've been tuning in listening to you Steve for quite some time
So really excited to dive into everything and just learn more about how just more about the book in general
Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that and appreciate the kind words
And yeah, I can't wait to talk more about it because it's definitely something that I just thinking about it gets me ready to run
Through a wall. I'm very happy with the product and I'm really stoked for there's nothing like this that exists out there
So really excited to kind of talk more and dive in
Yeah, see we could we could have gone the you know, the route of who's who's you know, who's Steve what Steve's full name
Where can I find Steve on LinkedIn? Like what have you done? But Steve, I think that stuff is to be fair
I don't think it's needed because you've been here for the past two years on a consistent basis
I mean if you don't know Steve definitely give him a follow but Steve Steve is he's here like when people
Say that they're here, you know, they're not really here posting a GM doesn't mean you're actually here
Steve is actively writing threads making posts posting morning shows on the daily basis. So yeah, Steve is actually here
I do want to give a shout out to Steve's wife Miss NFT
Mrs. NFT bark for the fact that you know, Steve can do what he does because of her, right?
So Steve has the liberty of doing what he does every day because he sacrificed as a partner as you know
Steve's wife to do and let him you know, do the things that he loves because obviously
Starting in the industry from you know, leaving your corporate job is a is a massive leap, right?
It takes confidence. It takes you know, it takes a team around you. It takes your loved ones to sacrifice
So shout out to Steve's wife, Mrs. NFT bark. Awesome sacrifice there
Can I double tap on it real quick just because that is the best way that anybody has ever started space
Oh Scott did make it. Yay. I knew I wasn't sure Scott was gonna be able to make it or not
I know he was grinding away on things
Um, but I was uh, I was just saying Scott I wasn't sure if you make it
But what you just said Andrew is so true because for people who don't know my background I just very briefly
15 years of corporate and PR experience and communications and marketing led multiple disciplines at fortune 500 and multinational companies
Led you know some frozen food brands PR at Nestle was leading
Internal comms at progressive when we sent everyone home for covid all 40,000 people and at 37
I decided I wanted to take a leap and do something i've never done before which is
Really hard in a safe corporate job. And the thing about Mrs
NFT bark that I just absolutely love is that she no matter what has supported me throughout
And it was like when I got my first job, she was like sure I have a really good job
But let's throw the cats in the car drive 3000 miles across the country and you can start doing this job
And then with this particular job, it's like, you know to tell your wife at 37 that you're like
Hey, I have this really good corporate tracked career and i'm just going to go
Try to start my own thing in this crazy world of web 3 in tech and she was like, well, yeah
We'll figure it out. We always do her support
Like I literally would not be able to white knuckle through this life if not for her
Sorry, I didn't mean but like you start off with that and it's such a good point
And it's something that I think is so important to say is like
This isn't like, you know
This isn't just a we because scott and I wrote this book together like my career is a we because mrs
NFT bark empowers me to chase this dream
Um in a way that I wouldn't be able to do without her and without her support
I wouldn't be able to do it
Appreciate you even starting off there and because a lot of people, you know
Don't know that context and the sacrifices and things like she left her job
To help me with the book and my career and my emails keep up with all the things that i'm doing
Like that's how dedicated she is and it means the absolute world to me. But go ahead and cook and I'll let you get out here
Leave awesome stuff. I will say this before I get to see like I was thinking this morning too of like i'm
26 i've been here for a couple years now
I was thinking of all the kind of
Sacrificing the people that i've met along the way that i've even helped me with one percentage
Up to where I am today and it's like it's it is it is deeply
And a lot of people don't know that stuff because it happens in
In the darkness behind the scenes and I do want to get a better habit of bringing those things to like in my life
As well as you know, those who are doing things that are impressive like you and scott save obviously
So that's why I kind of opened up with that scott. What is going on?
Thank you for making it add to change the title again for the third time this morning, but i'm happy to do it
Thanks so much i'm very honored to be here. Um, i'm sorry to have caused you to change the title
But uh, but i'm really glad to have you know in the title billing too. Whoa, steve plus scott. Let's go
Um, yeah, no, i'm thrilled to be here and and maybe I should just echo
Um, you know, I should echo like steve sentiment, right? This is this is a real we product, right?
First of all, i've had the best co-author in the universe on it. Um, second of all, um
Just like this is nftbark has supported steve like my partner has like supported my entire nft journey
uh, you know including you know sort of being a great interlocutor as I was figuring out like what the heck this stuff was and
You know, uh, and and you know supporting the completely wild decision to like acquire one of these like subduck things initially and
And has put up with me acquiring a lot more of them since
And really like throughout like, you know edit the manuscript like, you know, talk through ideas like help like sort of form and like really
Make like like help me better understand the nft experience. I was having
And really supported it, you know, sort of my doing it so
A brilliant sounding board too. Like she's got it's funny
Like I was laughing when he said editing the manuscript because there were times of being on a call and we'd be like
We're using making a joke here about an usher in a concert at an usher concert
Did we use the word usher too many times and she would like read it to her?
And give us an honest piece of feedback on our shenanigans. So sorry to cut you off scott
Absolutely, you know the live edits and how great she was with that
Totally. No, no, um and and and guys punchline
We had what we removed one instance of the word usher in the end, but it's still a great joke. Um, probably a better one. Um
The other we of course is that like this has really been a project coming out of all the communities
We've been a part of right like this has sort of
learnings through the experience of being like friends and collaborators with so many people in nft space
And trying to like distill and organize all the things that we were like learning along the way from everyone we were meeting
We're we're really honored and thrilled to be able to give back and we're we're really excited to talk to you guys today
Let's say under 30 seconds to a minute a little bit about yourself
The way that steve presented himself because I do want to spend most of this meeting today
Kind of getting in the depths of this and your industry perspectives all that stuff a post is kind of going
I i'll be honest guys. I'll be candid. I really hate surface level conversations
I can't stand them and like I I kind of want to get past the introduction stuff
And then get right into the weeds and like really get into it scott over to you
Wait, wait, what I missed the question. Am I just like saying who I am? All right. Yeah, if you can give a brief a brief
Uh, i'm an entrepreneurship professor at harvard business school and in the harvard economics department. I study market design
Which is the science of you know building new marketplaces or like enabling existing ones to work better sort of it's the
engineering aspect of economics you use economics and math and computer science to understand how the world could work better
And you then try and like design sort of solutions or help people who are designing solutions to bring the world there
And then at the same time i'm a research partner at a16z crypto
Where I work in particular a lot on like various crypto market design questions and incentive design around token systems and so forth
And then broader questions and like, you know nft and and other web3 business strategy
And you know, I I guess wow in like four days. I am
co-launching the first ever
Web3 elective at hps building web3 businesses
Which you know again were sort of right before the book like the day before the book drops
We're launching the class then the book drops like you sort of have been working a lot to try and like
understand generalizable frameworks that can be used by web3 builders and also
To help people who are outside of web3 like understand the new types of market design that this technology enables
And how that might be useful in their own business and lives
Very well said scott. That was awesome. I do want to really kind of open this up right immediately
Um, so what was the moment in time in which you guys had that I guess that aha moment quote unquote
Where it was like we're really going to do this
We're really going to write this book and the world's really going to read this like what was that moment like from both?
Their perspectives one that had happened. Maybe it was a date in time. Uh, maybe it was you know
A smell you can remember an image you can remember photographic memory. Whatever it is. What was that moment time like for you guys?
You know for me it was and scott can tell me if he has a different recollection of this
So so for people who don't know scott and I co-authored the first harvard business review article about nfts together and that was november
Of 2021 um and over the course of the three months following that you know, we both
And as we were doing that we were also doing, you know side consulting conversations scott, you know having conversations with you know
Both nft brands and non-nft brands as am I and we realized like as we're going along
You know, I remember this tim ferris quote that I really liked where he talked about
I he's basically said if you write a book you need to feel like it needs to be written
It reminds me of like steve jobs on entrepreneurship where he would be like if you want to build a company
You really got to have a why because it's gonna be hard. It's gonna take time and it's gonna be crazy
Um for me fortunately with with scott like it actually was just like a fun
Project that we basically did together where we just got to like we had a weekly meeting and it was like
I just get to meet with my friend once a week and occasionally we do escape rooms and things like that a virtual escape room
But the truth is like, you know when we were after we wrote this, uh article
We kind of had the same concurrent thought which maybe we discussed in passing once or twice
But I remember sending a dm at one point, you know early on
you know in 2022 after we had you know written the article and said like
Scott I feel like there's a book here and like I I know we kind of touched on it
But I keep going back to that and scott kind of said like i've been thinking the same thing
And I know an editor over at penguin who i've kind of become friends with for quite some time
And so, you know, I think for us, it wasn't necessarily like this aha sudden moment
It's like I think we both were ruminating and having this sort of like shared thought
And then we connected on it and both said you know what?
I think we can do this and obviously you have to feel it out at that point, right?
You need to talk to the editor and see if there's interest
She was interested then we need to put together sort of an outline for the publisher
They were interested. They gave us some phenomenal tips, by the way
Is our publisher the portfolio division and you know who was published a ton of tremendous books
And I think at the end of the day for us
Like at least for me and i'd love scott's take on this as well
It was like something that was kind of ruminating in the back of my head and then when I vocalized it and scott was like
Yeah, I got even more conviction
I'm like, okay scott's thinking it too
I'm thinking it and then once the publisher seems excited about it because they're like, hey, there's nothing and there's I think there's the other thing is
Going back to the book needing to be written
I feel like there's no product like this that exists like I feel like there is nothing that explains web3 in a colloquial way
Addresses, you know a lot of people they get challenged on crypto or nfts and they dismiss it
They don't want to discuss it or you know
Even in the worst case scenario you have the people who are do the whole have fun staying poor thing, right?
And it's like for us. We wanted to do a book that says would we acknowledge?
That this seems fantastically ridiculous if you're on the outside
But we also want you to understand that there's an incredible market opportunity here
And so we wanted to meet the reader where they are present a framework framework for success
Give them executional considerations
And just not having a product like that that was made for you know, a traditional business audience a small business audience
A general consumer audience an educational audience
It just didn't exist and so to me it was like an inspiration to write something that would fit those audiences
While also, you know writing a book and a product that didn't exist
So so that was my recollection of it Scott, but i'm totally curious to hear yours
No, I mean, I think that's very consistent. So
You know after we wrote the hbr article
We were getting lots of questions from people from all sides, right?
Like from inside nft space, you know, because one of the things that was like so incredibly wonderful about writing that article
Which was you know, really I think it was
You know, like steve steve and I had both written like sort of like short articles for like dj network and so forth
But like I think it was like the certainly for me
It was the first like scholarly work I had really done on, you know, specifically focused on nfts
And it really seemed to resonate with people in the community
And so they were coming to us and saying oh wow
Like, you know like you crystallized like this question about like what are they like?
How does the nft serve in all these different roles in our in our product simultaneously?
How is it like, you know, we have this sort of like how is it both like, you know
a consumption good and a membership pass and a loyalty
You know reward and sort of like how does it do all these things together and like what really makes an nft project?
You know sort of potential, you know sort of have potential
But then where do we go next? Right? Like we're getting like, you know, so so now i've faced the following problem in my business
How do I think about that? And then similarly like, you know
My colleagues and I had started teaching this stuff. Um, you know in in executive education courses, uh, even like a um
You know even sort of like in my um, my making markets my market design elective at hps
You know, I did like a two-week focus module on nfts and web 3
You know was getting all these questions from students from various backgrounds, right?
Like, you know people who are like, you know going off to work in private equity or who are you know
sort of web 2 entrepreneurs trying to understand what does this mean for my business and like
and we were seeing this like consistent set of questions over and over again and like
Just fine. I was finding, you know
And give I was giving a lot of the same answers and like slightly different variations and frames and so was steve and like
That felt like we had a next phase of the story to start explaining to people right?
It's like not just like what nfts are and how they create value, but how do you actually build?
Scott did you uh, he rocked a name
Yeah, maybe maybe phone call phone call alarm or
Crud, can you hear me now? Got it. You're just got
Okay, where did I where did I drop and hopefully my profanity didn't get added to the recording? Um
Wait, where where do you you you you were right?
You were right at basically you're getting the questions, uh, same sort of questions and and that part great
so we're getting a lot of consistent questions, um
And you know giving thus giving a lot of consistent answers, right and trying and
And really starting to piece together, you know in the in the book we talk about like this, you know
Sort of staircase and sort of like the way the nft feedback loop builds from ownership to utility to identity and community
that was really coming together as a you know, sort of as a
Unifying feature and and sort of layout that we were seeing in lots of different nft businesses everything from like the likes of you
know starbucks odyssey and like what big brands were doing to like what new novel nft native brands were doing even what like
sort of like small business type collections were trying
we knew then that we had a next step right that there was sort of a
A new thing to explain right that we'd sort of like come to like a beginning of a new understanding that we first had to
Like, you know understand more deeply and then and then explain to people and sort of try and translate
And then exactly as steve said right. I have this long time friend who's an editor at portfolio
And we sort of reached out and said like, you know, is this is this a book and you know, like in her response, you know
We were very lucky was like, oh my gosh. Yes. This totally sounds like a book
Like let's let's talk about it
then eventually she became our editor and and it was great fun and like and working and I should say like major shoutouts to
As someone who's very deep in in all of the different aspects of like, you know, sort of business and and
tech and web, you know, especially like web 2
like, you know working with her to like make sense of
What makes nfts make sense to an or like sort of an outside of web 3 business audience?
Was like really really helpful for sharpening our thinking even inside of web 3
So I don't know if there was like a single moment or oh, but but you asked about like taste and smell and stuff
I will say that's actually very funny. I hadn't thought about this
I remember like steen I was drinking this like mint tea
I had like totally not thought of this at all
But like I definitely was in fact standing and drinking mint tea
Like this sort of like, you know light chamomile mint, uh when I was like, uh, you know first like really seriously like thinking about this
Because and like steve and I were having this like back and forth chat and in uh, twitter
I x I for which messaging what it was to call it the time but like it in indirect messages
And I was like standing there drinking chamomile mint tea
So I guess the moment we realized we needed to write a book tastes like chamomile mint
Scott I appreciate the answer and it might be a weird question kind of hearing me out
so the way that my brain personally works i'm gonna root after this is that
Things that i've done in my life that are that have made me proud
Maybe not someone else but have made me proud
I can always go back to a time in a place where I've smelt something heard something saw something in that moment
I can literally visualize that moment again, and if I had any artistic competency, I could probably draw it for you or kind of lay it out
That's why I ask because obviously this is guys
This is a massive accomplishment and you won't notice that or recognize that maybe you have already until the next 10 years
When this space scales the space and the book are probably going to scale in parallel and it's my prediction
So you'll probably look back in time like man that time when I had that tea
Sorry, go ahead go ahead yes guys like those to me personally
Those are the moments that I think in 20 years when this book does what it does
That's what you'll think of like holy crap
You'll probably tell that you'll probably tell that story scott with steve on a larger stage and this is here
And I hope when you do that you remember me asking you that silly question
100 I was gonna say thank you so much for like giving me this moment
Like it's really funny. Like I have not put myself back in that physical like mental space
And but you're totally right like it is it is sort of like embedded as a flashbulb memory. Like that's so cool
Of course, yeah, I'm here to do what I can let's go to you
Also fun fact, did you know that like ours are scent or different types of smells are more closely correlated to like memories that we have
Than any other senses as well. Just fun fun fact
Something I read a long time ago in college and I thought was really interesting. Um, but yeah, the question I have is
I have some friends of mine. Um, one of mine in particular was an old college roommate of mine
He was a senior at the time. I was like a you know, a wet behind the ears freshman
And he's I've looked up to him since then as kind of like a mentor. He kind of knows what i've been doing
I used to work in a similar
Industry as him and I'd left to you know, go full time into web 3. I took that similar risk that you guys did
now my my question is he's very
pessimistic when it comes to
Nfts and blockchain in general he understands the concepts of like bitcoin for example
But all the different nuances involved with web 3, you know different layer ones twos and and uh nfts as a whole
Now my question is is someone like him who he's you know, hyper successful has a company
He's generating hundreds of millions of dollars a year. He's very pessimistic on the tech
Um behind nfts, for example
Now my question is if i'm going to give the book or gift the book to someone friends of mine
Who aren't necessarily like really ingrained into like all things web 3
Now after reading in the book as someone who views all this stuff relatively pessimistic
Do you feel as though they would read the book and then have a pretty good head start and be able to participate
In some of like the web 3 ecosystems nfts in particularly
So your friend sounds like a good candidate for the book now
I will say if someone is so close-minded to not believe a concept
Like I got a question yesterday where someone basically said like that they you know
They work in in the tech industry and nobody in the tech industry is working on this technology
Everybody's only working on ai and like and which is just objectively untrue
And if those people exist like they're not going to be as open-minded to everything, right?
So they may or may not get it like but part of why we wrote this book is for a couple reasons like
I do think he'd be a good candidate for it because
If he is that sort of smart and ahead of the curve and understands the basic level of the blockchains
We do a good job. I think or our best job we can
Explaining why this is a better software solution and why nfts do create value where they matter and the industry is the whole fact
Part of it though. I would say for your sake is as you have friends like that
So it's funny because in many ways we start off by acknowledging the ridiculous premise of this
I mentioned that up front page one is a board ape on it and we basically acknowledge how fantastically ridiculous it is
That a company that seemingly is selling pictures of primates as their primary offering got a 450 million dollar raise
And then we bring them down to kind of explain a little bit of why that is
And then we actually do the things that a lot of people
Ask but are like the quiet part that sometimes people don't say out loud
So there is a subhead on page nine in big bold letters that say but wait
Aren't nfts tied to cryptocurrency and isn't cryptocurrency a giant scam?
We want people to know like we know that people think this we acknowledge that this is a problem
but we also want to get to the solution of understanding that
You don't want to ignore the technology just because of those headlines or certain things that do exist
We also acknowledge that there are
Problems in the market that exist and then that's when we sort of bring them down into the framework
We explain how it actually is very scientific and understanding and how it works, right?
Um and the different elements that go into it. It's sort of a mix of art and science
So to us your friend makes sense in that sense that he probably is somebody or she is somebody who I think you said he but
He or she is somebody who is looking at this technology in a way that they see headlines
They don't quite understand the monkey jpegs and they say look I get crypto. I don't get this
so they're probably a prime candidate, but the other flip side of that
Because our editor was non-crypto native because our publisher was non-crypto native because
Many of our test readers were non-crypto native and don't understand sort of the blockchain nfts and all these other things
What it does for someone like you or anybody in this audience who may be already a home crowd?
Well, it makes it so you're empowered with the best possible explanations because scott and I were forced to explain
How how infallible proof of ownership can exist on a blockchain?
We were forced to explain why these examples are community-based brand building
Why credentials will change why ticketing will change why healthcare will change we were forced to really suss out those ideas
So what I tell a lot of people who are crypto native is one
If you just don't want to have the conversation you could say here the harvard professor and the entrepreneur guy are telling you why it works
Not me. You don't have to listen to me. Um, but two, I mean it puts you in a position where you know
The way I explain nfts people i've told this story a couple times
I had a guy who was on a plane with me on on the way to art puzzle and I was very much telling on myself
I had a right click save as hat. I had my like nft gear on and i'm sitting next to him
He turns to me he goes. Hey, so what are you going down for?
He knew but like I was like, you know, web 3 nfts that stuff and he's like i'm an artist
I don't get it like nfts like they see he actually said to me
Those things are kind of scammy, right like the monkeys and things like that
Like he actually said something to that degree
And I said to him well, wait a minute like and I kind of gave him a little primer
Like I work with starbox and when you say starbox, he's like, oh wait, that's a real company
They're not messing around then I mentioned like he's like, okay, that's a real company
So now his mind was a little bit open, but then I said to him let's make it practical
You're an art collector or you're an art an artist
Do you know everybody who's ever bought a piece of your art? He's like, well, yeah, you know, I sold it to him
And it's a smaller scale or whatever. I'm like, what if they resell it? Like do you know who that is?
And do you get a royalty on that resale and he's like, well, no
But I don't know if they resell I assume they buy my art to buy it and it's like well
That's probably the case I was like but even more that do all your collectors know each other
Do they have the opportunity to get to know each other? He's like, well, some of them know each other
But yeah, some people see my art they buy it and they leave it's like, well, they all share a love of your art
They purchased it like what if you could do community building or give them the opportunity and let them know when your next art piece
Is coming out or give the opportunity to get them together in an event surrounding your art
Or maybe they could whether they purchase new artwork or just participate together and he's like, yeah, that would be cool
I was like, that's what nfts and web3 can provide to you
He's like, well, that doesn't sound like the scammy monkey pictures at all
And I was like, well, actually the scammy monkey pictures do exactly that in a different way
But what you see may not be the actual outcome
So just a long way way of saying, you know for someone who picks up this book
If you're in this audience and you pick it up, you're going to be armed with explanation
So if you meet someone in health care, you can explain health care
If you meet someone in ticketing, you can explain ticketing
If you meet someone in who owns a local coffee shop, you can explain it to them
So the goal was to suss this out so that that person can read it your friend
But also so that people in this space right here can actually build upon it
And I'll ultimately explain it to their friends and family all the same way
Steve, that was a great question
And I want this to go back to where after this, after I kind of make this statement
I think one of the most important things about the book
Is that you guys are actually demonstrating your knowledge in the book
By applying it to your real lives
I'll give an example what I mean by this
So I'm a pretty, I think average book reader
I have a bunch of books, probably try to read one once a month
Sometimes less than time, just more
And I pick up a lot of marketing, business development books
And the marketing books, some of them that I've looked on
Amazon or these websites have like six reviews
And have like, you know, let's say they're like 200 visits on the website or whatever it is
And I'm like, how are you going to put out a marketing book
But you guys have six reviews and only 200 clicks
You can't even market your own book
So why would I purchase your book on marketing if you can't marketing the damn book
With you guys, you guys are actively in the industry doing things in the industry
And the knowledge that you've probably put into the book
I haven't gotten mine yet
But I will probably figure this out afterwards
You guys have applied in your own lives
And that's why I think it's important to get books
Not from experts, but from people who actually apply this stuff
In the book, in their own lives
The way that, you know, the marketing books are not marketed very well
Like it doesn't make any sense, right?
Like the, you know, it's a little bit weird, right?
We're looking back to you with another question
Now, I love your breakdown of that, Steve
Mainly because, and I learned this in some pre-law classes
Before deciding to drop out and not go to the law school
But I think the difficult thing about explaining Web3 or NMTs in general
To someone who's more or less pessimistic about the narrative behind it
It's reversing that narrative
And I think it's going to be pretty difficult moving forward
Especially given what happened in 2021
And after the fact with the euphoria
And then kind of the decline of the narrative of NFTs in general
I've learned that in order to really reverse someone's ideas
Especially if it's pessimistic
Is you have to understand exactly what they define as what NFTs are in general
You have to break down their perspective
And then reverse that so that you can try and change their perspective on it
And that's incredibly difficult to do
And I'm really hoping, because I just ordered the book
But I'm really hoping that me gifting the book to people
It allows it to reverse that perspective that they have
Because I think genuinely moving into the next year or two
We're obviously going to see enterprise level companies continue to move into the space
And try and change that narrative
But I think right now, currently, it's just something that's infiltrated the media
And just mass consumers as a whole
And trying to change their narrative on it is really difficult
So I'm really looking forward to see how you guys kind of navigate that whole thing with the book
So you really answered the question really well for me, too
Thanks. And Scott, I know you're going to build on my thought as well
Because I also would say even beyond that
Those large companies can benefit equally from the book
That's a huge opportunity for them as well
Because we don't want them to come in authentically and have an issue
Where they maybe inadvertently don't understand the space
But Scott, I know you're going to build on what I said before
Oh, yeah, just very quickly
First of all, I totally agree with that statement
Like, we've seen that it's very important for companies to understand the space
Before they try and enter in order for them to then be able to succeed
And it's not to say, by the way, that large companies don't have a ton to bring
Like, actually, Steve and I write in many different places in the book
That we think the broad adoption of NFTs
Which we also think of as likely to be sort of a platform for adoption of crypto more generally
Is actually going to come from ordinary consumer applications
From your digital tickets and your Starbucks coffee and so forth
Because even collectibles and the ordinary collectibles market
Collectibles is a multi-hundred billion dollar industry
But it's mostly sold in the form of one dollar souvenirs
And five or ten dollar packs of cards and stuff
Not ten thousand or forty thousand dollar whatever
There are very high-end collectibles
But the majority of collectibles purchasing is actually in these very small individual units
That are widespread and easily accessible
Think Pokemon cards or baseball games, souvenirs and stuff
But the other thing, just as a footnote on the like, how do you talk to skeptics about Web3?
A really important thing to keep in mind
And I emphasize this in all of my teaching on this stuff
Is like, we're not necessarily here to convince people
We're here to help them understand and form their own opinions
Right, and so I taught this, Shai Bernstein, my colleague and I
Taught a course last January that was like a sort of short immersion on Web3
It was like a four-day intensive program that exposed a bunch of the MBA students to Web3
And they created their own crypto wallets
We gave them ETH, I believe this was an HBS first
The first time a class has ever involved giving students cryptocurrency
And then having them do live exercises with it
We gave them ETH, we had them acquire NFTs
And then load them into various metaverse platforms
Like, we did a bunch of live exercises
And meanwhile, we discussed case studies on various businesses
And they met some different executives from both Web3 native companies
And sort of established brands that were looking at Web3
In fact, Steve and the Forum 3 team were in class
But we told them at the beginning and we told them at the end
Like, we're not here to tell you that this is the way you should think the future of the internet
Is going to look because it's still an open question
But if you can imagine sitting in these seats
Same classrooms in the mid-90s
And trying to form a view on whether the internet was an important technology
And how it mattered for your business
Like, one can walk away with either of you, right?
Like, given the early internet
It's like, you could end up with either opinion on whether this was going to be the future
But you absolutely had to be thinking about it
And so my message to a lot of people who are skeptical about this stuff
Look, I was a major crypto skeptic for most of the existence of crypto
I was on record in 2013 saying I didn't understand why any of this stuff was useful for anything
And hilarious, I was aware of it in 2008, 2009
Because one of my undergraduate and then dissertation advisors was an extremely early Bitcoin miner
And she told all of her students about this
Like, isn't this this cool thing?
And I was like, it doesn't sound that interesting to me
But the important thing is, you have to think about it
When a new general purpose technology emerges
It's actually important as a person in the world
Who's going to engage with the technology
Or engage with companies they're engaging with the technology or whatever
To just have a view on what you think
And to be able to understand and interpret it
And so a big part of the purpose of the book
We're not writing it as a document that's supposed to convert people or whatever
We hope it will enable people to see the value of the technology and build around it
Even if they haven't seen that value before
But mostly we're writing it to teach
Here's what it is, here's a bunch of things it can do
And then people should read it and form an opinion and watch how it evolves
I do have one quick question and we can go to outer and then Z right after this
So like I do have a question about the branding
We can touch upon that a little bit later about the title, all that stuff
I know it's kind of baseline
But I hope nobody's asked you guys questions like that
How important is it for the both of you over the next, let's say dimension of time
Of five years, 10 years, 25 years
To actually get this in the libraries of schools
Or like into the hands of teachers that are teaching courses on blockchain
Whether it's in New Zealand, Switzerland, Italy, Europe, Canada
Where I'm from, unfortunately, wherever it is
How important is that for you guys as the next step?
Because that to me just seems like the obvious thing to do
Especially because there's so much backing with this book
I mean like to me and like I'll let Scott talk a little bit more about it
I'll just say at a high level like
I'll kind of talk about what my dream of this book is
And the smallest less than 1% type thing
But I'll and then I'll throw to Scott more
Because I think he could speak more to the academic libraries
And you know that's his world in academia more so than mine
What I'll say is like you know my dream of this book
I have a story about like you know and this is like a one of one story
And I don't know if these exist outside of this
But you know I have a buddy named Jaybrush
Who is like really big in the on-chain monkey community
Like a friend of mine and a story I didn't know until relatively recently
That I found out was Jaybrush found NFTs
Because he read the Harvard Business Review article that Scott and I wrote
And then he said hey let me follow these guys on Twitter
And then he saw some of the things we were talking about
And then I worked with on-chain monkey and met a good as like my first web3
Employer and he saw that and was like well I follow this guy
I like what he wrote in the HBO article like I'm gonna follow him into on-chain monkey
Now he holds like the highest level of membership
He's an active community member
And like hearing that story is like really cool to me
Because it's like well like here's a guy who I respect who I love in this space
Who wrote an article or who joined a community
Based on the fact that I was sort of this entry into it
And it is my hope and dream of this like you know one day talking to someone
So this is like not necessarily your question
But something that like my absolute dream of people are like what is the ultimate dream of this
And to me there's a tremendous opportunity to build the picks and shovels of this world right now
Like we talk about it in the book and it's something that's important to note
But like you know when I was coding websites in fifth and sixth grade in the mid 90s
I had to do HTML and like if I had one line of code broken it didn't work
And if my sister got a phone call it kicked me off because she had dial up
And we were there right it's like all these things happened right that existed
Well now it's like if the people on this stage want to spin up a website
We can just get a Squarespace and spin one up tomorrow
And so the out of the box solutions have to exist
It is my dream like my ultimate goal is that people pick this up
And somebody an engineering student a data scientist
A student that sort of has an entrepreneurial spirit
And somebody builds picks and shovels that we haven't even thought of yet
And they're inspired by reading it
And I know that's a very lofty goal
But I think goals should be lofty that somebody would see it pick it up
And say hey this makes sense to me I didn't understand it
What an opportunity for me instead of taking a you know data scientist
You know job at some large you know fortune you know 100 company
Which you know I've demanded out of college
I can instead create the picks and shovels for this world
So to me like you know getting it into those libraries
Is sort of the first step to that getting into classes getting to hands
And teaching people because the truth is this technology will scale
I read somewhere that like 99% of businesses are small businesses by definition
In the US or something insane like that
And so for them to use it and not just the Starbucks
And not just the Nikes which is awesome
They are leading the way they are pioneers
They are tasting the fruit and seeing if it's poisonous
And telling all their friends right
But like at the end of the day for this to scale
You need those opportunities for the cost and tech barriers to be reduced
And that's going to come from students and education
But I want to go to Scott because Scott's far more versatile than I am
No, I mean I think that's exactly right right
Like as a as a teacher myself
I have always thought of the way that I scale my impact
Is you know as being through teaching right
It's like if I can help you know one or if I'm lucky you know 100
You know or a thousand students
Figure out how to achieve you know a more optimal
You know sort of life for themselves
You know sort of achieve their goals and dreams
Sort of more completely and more directly
And like and similarly right
Like if I can help businesses run better
Through teaching principles and frameworks
And like equipping my students with the power to go
And do a better job out in the world
Like you know one's dream as a professor
Is to have other people teach your work
And then have people learn from it
And you know go on and you know
Would rather to teach your work yourself
And to have other people teach it
So that many people learn from it
And go on to you know sort of lead better
And more complete and full lives right
So absolutely I'd love that Q&A
Scott that was amazing line
You teach your work so others can teach it to others
Insane someone's got to clip that
I do want to get some of these hands here
Outer what's going on and we're going to Z right after outer
Hey GM thanks for having me up
You totally asked my question
I wrote my notes here academic impact
But I want to elaborate on it just a little bit
But I love how we're both on the same wavelength
And maybe it's because we're both in Canada
I don't know what but I'm as a past researcher
Very much connected to the academia here
And instantly I thought about this book
As being something that would be you know not just in libraries
But really as a textbook perhaps in various courses
I think that a big thing for me is I reflect on it
And I know that you're kind of more into the MBA and business side of things
But even attending some recent AI panels
Both in you know local college law school
And you know like cultural studies departments
Where they both talked about it and NFTs and Web3
There's really this like it just seemed that the discourse isn't very informed
Or it's informed by media or is very skewed
And so I think it's important to really
Like when you're thinking about promoting this book
Especially in academia and you know selling it to various instructors
To not discount other departments at universities
Like I think cultural studies or any of those kind of departments
Will benefit from exposing their students
Even philosophy to something like that
And especially you know computer science of course as well
Which is a huge one for engineering right
So not just necessarily like thinking about it
From like a branding entrepreneurship business side educator
But I think thinking beyond that in terms of what other departments
Could benefit from having this information
Thank you I mean my I have an undergraduate minor in ethnomusicology
And I you know and ethnography
Like I took some like graduate ethnographic field methods courses
Like ethnography has been a core component of my work in economics right
Like which is not necessarily normal right
Like it's sort of a in market design is very important
To like but but it's not the case that like
You know sort of if you're studying international trade
Like the default first thing you do is like you know go
And like you know go to 27 different countries
And look at how trade is being done
But if you're actually building a marketplace
Like you really have to do a lot of ethnography in the market
And you're totally right right like you know I've said on occasion
That there are probably you know 20 dissertations to be written
You know in various sort of like social science fields
And you're right even like philosophy right
About how ownership comes to be in NFT spaces
You know what an NFT community is like sort of how you know sort of
How all the different you know even just like the role of a PFP as a signifier
Right um and so you're totally right
And and I would love to see people work on that
And incidentally any academics in the audience
Or like aspiring academics if you're you know whatever the field
If you're thinking about like how do I bring web 3 into my like scholarship
And or my like public academic practice
Let me know I'd be very excited to chat
Scott that was awesome I always appreciate how forthcoming you are
Now that I've met you for the first time and Steve I've known for the past
Steve what maybe a year and a half two years
You've always been very forthcoming too
Which I appreciate as a fellow human being
GM so I genuinely don't have any questions
But I'm today is a very exciting day for one reason
And this is a very brief backstory
My account on Amazon was hacked about a month and a half ago
And I've been battling with Amazon to get it back
And I was very excited for today because it's a very long story
I had multiple family members and issues got onto it
And today was the day I actually got unlocked
And the first thing I just happened to do was literally pre-order your book
So Steve I'm so happy I was finally able to do it
Scott it's a pleasure to actually finally meet you
I feel like I've heard you in third person
And I've never met you but I feel like I know you
Through the words of Steve so it's a pleasure
Again no questions because I've heard you guys talk about this book on numerous occasions
So I'm just very excited and honestly just can't wait to get my hands on it
And hopefully introduce it to some of the bookworms in my family
And it's funny like it's funny how you like you get to know people online through other people
Sometimes like I definitely have that experience where like I won't know somebody like
I'll give you an example like I don't know leap super well
Because he does late night spaces and I do morning and I have kids
So I'm asleep a lot of times
But I know like thread guy and I know some other folks like that
And through them I end up knowing leap
And like when I met him in Miami for the first time
I'm like I had a very similar discussion where I'm like
I feel like I know you even though I don't know you right
Because it's like we have different things
So it's one of the things I love about web3
And actually contextually and then I'll hand it back to the host
So I know I'm kind of you know I have a tendency to go along here
But like one of the funny parts is
That's actually very much a story that Scott and I have
So you know we do end the book actually with a story of our own
Which we've been telling people this and they've been increasingly surprised
Which is always fun when we have someone surprised
Because Scott and I this is just the normal way we operate
Scott and I met through a subducts twitter space called what's quackin
Scott was talking about how this person named bread
Had memes that were like part of a larger economy
I'm like I vibe with this guy and like you know
He DM me afterwards we ended up getting in a conversation
Our friend DJ kind of connected us
And I was like really enjoying it
We would have these conversations here and there
What people don't know is like we wrote this entire book
And this is the most web3 ever thing ever
We met in a twitter space we have never met in person
We have only met over zoom meetings
And we wrote an entire 200 250 page book
All together virtually without ever having met in person
And like our editor found this out as we were working on the end
And we're like well I guess that's the conclusion of the book
It's like our own web3 story really kind of closes it out
And how we've gotten together and like one day we will meet in person
But it's kind of crazy when you think about it that way
When we're writing a book with one of the world's premier business publishers
About an emerging technology with quotes on the back
That are endorsing it from Gary Vaynerchuk
And two Nobel prize winners and Chris Dixon
And Adam Brotman you know from from forum three
And former chief digital officer Starbucks
And Jeff Charney CMO of progressive like all these great people
And here we are doing that right
Never having met in person so it's very web3
And you're kind of you know what you said there is he reminded me of it
And it almost makes the book almost more meaningful
And more web3 to me in a lot of ways
Because we have never actually like physically been in the same room
No I love that and again it's such an honor
And again a pleasure to kind of finally speak
And hear you guys together I feel on a space
I'm gonna post my screenshot because I can't lie
Andrew I'm gonna expose your DM
He was like why did it take so long
And again I had about six or seven family members
With different debit and credit cards
Their banks had to go through the process of tracking what happened
I will never share that many or one account on Amazon
With that many family members ever again
And that's basically what they ended up telling me
Just kind of try to stick to maybe two or three
So that's a little bit of alpha for you in the morning
Big congratulations to you all
I do have one random question I don't know if this was actually asked
But do you all plan on doing something IRL
Or across the US to promote this book
In a more efficient manner outside of the space
No I mean at least not at the moment
I would say like for us this is sort of the best way
That we can get the book out there
Is sort of this virtual tour
Because it lets us scale to all these different types of audience
We're gonna do an event of some sort at Harvard
For sure that's something we're talking about
Which is going to be really fun for them
But I don't think we have anything planned outside of it
Although I mean you know me Z
I'm at every single web3 thing
So although I can't make Paris
But I will be around with
I'm sure with books and with Sharpie
And all those good things
Because we definitely will be out there in that capacity
But nothing like formally planned for like this IRL yet
At least not at the moment
What Steve means to say is
First of all of course it's going to be something at FTNYC
And moreover if any of you guys want to get in touch
About IRL events or have friends who do let us know
Please right Steve that's what you meant to say
It's actually kind of impressive that they're so similar in nature
And I think maybe not in nature
But I think in personality from a communications perspective
You guys outside looking in are super similar
I can see why you guys got so
You guys got along and wrote a great book
Steve I have a silly question for you and Scott
If you guys if and when you guys speak at Harvard
It's probably a when thing to be honest
Can you guys promise me you'll take a picture
In front of the Harvard Business School
You know slogan the way that Kim K did please with the book
I will do a Kim Kardashian like thing
For Scott it's like old hat
That sign is actually directly next to the building
That is that has my office in it
So like I walk by it like
The type of thing you walk by like every single day
Like you know maybe 10 times
And yes we will absolutely take that photo
Awesome I appreciate you guys
I do want to get to the back of Valley
Back of Valley you've been patient
Oh man I'm really kind of excited
The people around me think I am absolutely crazy
For participating in anything that has to do with crypto
And there's no like easy way to explain this financial literacy
Or give them financial literacy when it comes to these ecosystems
Because of all the tech behind it
And I just found out it's in Steve's voice
So I'm used to listening in on coffee and captain
So I think I'm going to make it through the five hours
And 22 minutes or whatever it said it was
Tell me somebody in the marketing team
Guys we're dropping this emerging technology book
We'll send the first one to back of Valley
It'll be Pangle to finally earn some ETH in a wallet
You know what I'm saying?
Tell me this is going to happen Scott
We'll give you a hard maybe on that
We're looking at a couple of things
But we're going to go hard maybe
There is one of the things that I think Scott and I
Like the behind the scenes not related to that specifically
Is like one of the things you don't realize
Because neither of us have written a book before
Is all the things that go into writing a book
You know it's like you write the book
Which is awesome and super fun
But then it's like the marketing of the book
And the book buys the book
And getting the quotes of the book
And doing all these things
So we are like jammed to the gills right now
With all the things we're trying to do for it
So if this happens promise there will be a tweet out there
But you know we've had a bunch of varying discussions
On different things we can do to make the book
And I want to make sure we deliver on all the things
We need to deliver on for our publisher
And for the larger community as we go through
And the nice part about it is well next week's the launch
And certainly we want to have a big launch
You always want to do well in your first week
It's not like the book then you know it just goes away
It's not like it's like 24 hours and the book is gone
So I'm sure we'll be around doing more stuff around
And it won't just be this one off
You know certainly we have interviews and things after that
And there will be more video content
You know the events at Harvard things like that
It's like you know well the launch is something
That is like really really exciting
There will still be like intermittent and interspersed things
After that that we'll be doing
So keep an eye out for it
But at the moment I'll give you a hard maybe on that
I keep watching and I just and I just followed you
I'll be honest I was thinking that too guys
I was about to ask like you know when utility
Like I just I just want to know when you know
Like that's that's where my focus is
I do want to ask a serious question
You guys need a community manager
Yeah they need a collab manager
We need more of those in the space
I do want to ask on a serious note
When you guys you know came up with the concept with the book
Did you guys do the title first title last
How did you guys get to the title
What was that process like
Because obviously the title is is a lot of like
To me wordplay like token
Like you can obviously it's called you know
Everything token whatever right
You guys could do a Machiavelli did
And give meaning to the title and put it on chain
Was that concept of the title created before the book
Was it last thing to the first thing you did
Like what was that operation that workflow like
Towards the end we were writing
And towards the end at some point our editor was like
We probably need a title for this thing pretty soon here
And so we actually had a spreadsheet
And like I actually loved
I listened to James Clear on Tim Ferriss
Talking about like the way he titles things
And we had all these brainstorms
And a google sheet which I will forever keep in existence
Because we actually had like a color coded like
Like with like this whole thing
Where we were writing down various titles
And we would have ones that were like very in your face
Or like you know like the anaphies are a scam type thing
Like that bobby hundreds did right
But like things like that
That were like you know don't fade the future
That were like more aggressive right
And then we had this other side
That was like more very straightforward
And the way the title came to fruition
I believe it was Scott who actually came up with it
Because we were going back and forth with our editor
And they were like saying like well look
I think it was actually our publisher
I think it was Adrian who said it
But it was like they asked the question like hey
What problem do NFTs solve
Because when you're explaining to a normal business audience
Just telling them up front what it solves
Just being very straightforward
And we're like well it's tickets
And it's also you know credentials
It can affect like every industry potentially in some way
Not that this is going to you know revolutionize
Or fundamentally change things you know wholeheartedly
And everything the way it does like you know say loyalty
The way Starbucks Odyssey is shaking things off
But you know in small ways
Like your license being an NFT that is soul bound
May not seem like a big innovation
But it's a better software solution
And so once we started realizing it
Like Scott was like what about the everything token
And we're like actually that kind of that kind of slaps
And we're like oh that's kind of good
Like and the process of going through like the titling
As well as the cover is actually really really fun
Because you're sitting there you're giving feedback
And like one of the things I appreciate about Scott as a collaborator
Like first of all like I'm very blessed by having great collaborators
You know like I get to work with Chris in the morning
As a collaborator on that I could not have worked with anybody else
But Scott on this I swear like it's like we had zero fights in 18 to 24 months
Of working on this and writing this and everything right
I'm very blessed in that sense
And you know he brought he one of the things he does very well
Is I think Scott is good at like understanding how things need to be
Not perfect but actually honed in on to get to like the end goal
And he's very like has a very good sense of that
And like whether we're going through edits on covers
And he's like this gradient here's why maybe not
Or like here I'm supposed to be the marketing brand guy
And he's like that hue of orange I feel like that hue of orange
On the cover you don't see in other things
And we can own that and brand that
And I was like wow that's really smart right
And obviously market design guy so he gets it whatever
But like the way we came up with the title
It's like we didn't just settle for like what we thought was the best
Like the best available title
We sussed it out until we had one that everybody like collectively looked
And was like that that title really sings
So the title came later towards the end of the book
After we were kind of putting it together
And it was really just a prompt from her
After we spent like all this time in a spreadsheet going back and forth
It was like our editor just being like what does it solve
More like everything we're like that sounds like a compelling title
That might get people interested
And so that's where we ended up
And we've gotten really good feedback on the title
We've gotten really good feedback on the actual book itself
As well so far from our early readers
I do want to be respectful of your guys time
Do you guys have a dead stop in five minutes
Or do we have an extra 15 left side
I can rock a little bit longer
I probably have like an extra 15 if we need to
First of all I'm not going to let Steve get away
With like keeping all that praise on me
Without like reflecting a ton of it back on him
First of all the fact that like this is like the only person
I could ever have worked with on this project
And in fact the fun story
We talked earlier about our partners
When I was I got this opportunity to like look into writing this NFT HBR article
And I was like I don't know enough to do this on my own
Like I really like I don't I'm not ready to do it
And like you know the first thought is like
Oh this is the guy Steve I've been talking with
And then but then like I'm like
I've known him for like weeks like a couple weeks
Like you know you're just on the internet
And so like I like you know I make this whole list
I think like oh are there all these other people
And then like go to my partner
I'm like okay so like I'm trying to decide like who to invite
To like co-author this like article
And I'll run her through this whole like logic and decision tree
I'm going through and she's like I don't even understand
Why you're like having this conversation with me
It's clear that like you think the only person
You could possibly write it with is this guy Steve
And I'm like yeah that's right isn't it
And she's like yeah like like absolutely
Like like why are why are we even having this conversation
You should go message him
And I'm like and like I was so scared
Like right like you're like oh my god
Like I'm there's only one person in the world
I can write this article with
And like he barely knows me
And so I like drop him this DM
And like I knew he was going to NFT NYC
And like and luckily he was just like oh my god awesome
But like you know so even from that moment
Right it was like he was just like the most obvious
And like only like perfect collaborator
For this whole project and Aegis
And so it's just been the most extraordinary experience
And particularly right like you know
He's saying like oh Scott you saw this color
And the cover could be branded
But like I learned that from him
We're talking about the covers
And I'm like thinking about this
And I've like learned so much
About how to think about like brand marketing
And expression and communications and stuff
And I'm like oh bingo like color
Color is a brandable asset
Like you know if I learned one thing
From the last like you know six months
We've been working on this
Like it's that like brandable assets
Like you know benefit from simplicity
And like so first of all major shout outs to Steve
But then the other thing is
What's funny about the title is
While it took us forever to come to it
It actually like became such an organizing framework
And principle for the book right
Like on page I don't know what
Like you know sort of towards the end of like
You know sort of the introduction
I've got I've got one of the few physical copies
We say you know as we'll unpack
NFTs start with the simplest of structures
Just an ownership record in a digital database
But we can build functionality on top of them
In a way that creates surprisingly flexible value
NFTs can turn images into event tickets
And event tickets into brand anchors
They will usher in the next generation
Of customer loyalty programs
Creating structures that benefit both businesses
And consumers in new ways
They'll change the way we manage our work histories
And they can transform simply owning a product
Into a close-knit community experience
NFTs are the everything token
Like that we couldn't have written
But once we had the title
We realized it was the story of the whole book
Yeah, we definitely got to clip that
I'll definitely take a picture of that
Tag you both and tweet it
Whatever you want to call it now on this app
I do want to get to Ruto the co-host
And then Otter and her notes after
Yeah, since you guys do have like
Just a couple more minutes
Just because I'm kind of like a little bit of a marketing nerd myself
So when it comes to you guys obviously finish the book up
You're getting some some rounds in
You're doing some client facing stuff
What's your like main key focus
Or like what's a KPI you're looking to hit
When you're thinking of like your go-to-market strategy
Or even just scaling out kind of the marketing side
Of you know the book tour
If you want to call it that
So there are some some KPI numbers
Because I don't know if our publisher would want us to
As far as ones that they kind of set for us as goals to say
Hey, this is a successful launch up into
The first week of print right
Like that's certainly there
But I'm going to do the thing like
Because I'm a marketing guy
So actually I feel what you're saying
But I'm going to go ahead and quote like do a quote that
You know we thought was attributed to Einstein
But I hear it's falsely attributed to Einstein
But it's something that I like where it's like that
You know not everything that counts can be counted
Not everything can be counted counts
It's almost similar to making an analogy in the book
You know when you look at the ideas of like a community-based brand
Or the identity you feel with something
You don't really have a value or a KPI
You put on your friends with your family
Your friend your family your friends
Your college roommates etc right
And when you like look at your favorite sports team
You don't necessarily put a KPI and say like
My fandom to Ohio State only exists if blank right
Like it's not that sort of circumstantial thing
And I think at least for me personally
And Scott may have a different point of view
And how he puts it but like
I just really suit with the eye
I'm almost a bad salesperson for the book
In the sense that I just want the ideas to be in people's hands right
And it's like obviously we want people to buy the books
But like if that means we're writing an article
That means we're going on spaces that share the ideas
If we're explaining that these ideas
Can fundamentally change the way we do business
Which I do want to say like
I know mass adoption is like a nails on a chalkboard term
I look at mass adoption as
This technology fundamentally making the lives better
Creating a line incentive structures
And driving forward what this technology can do
It's not people coming to buy my east bags
Which a lot of people think of mass adoption
As people coming in by my bags
And so to me the actual nature of this is like
I get pumped anytime somebody buys
And says I'm going to share with a friend and family
I get pumped when I get a DM
When someone says hey like I kind of want to teach this in a class
Like how can I do a bulk buy
I get pumped when I almost fell in the pool
At the rug radio house in Miami jumping up and down
Because somebody live bought the book
And said they were going to share it with their family
And so like to me that's what this sort of book does
Is like the KPI for me as much as it's like a squishy one is
You know each buy and each time somebody gives me that feedback
It's the ideas that get out into the wild
And ultimately can move this forward and like change minds
Because people reading the book and saying you know you're
This is changing my mind or I understand it
Like when we had some of our test readers
Some of the people Scott and I went to
Who maybe weren't as native to it and said
Okay get it and they'll provide feedback
Of where things didn't make sense and we make those edits
Like those are the moments where you're like holy crap
Like we care so deeply about bringing this to the world
And spending all this time
Because like statistically with what you get paid to write a book
Like it's not exactly like it's scalable to your normal time
Or your consulting rate or your salary
It's a labor of love in the sense that you want the ideas to exist out there
And you know so to me that's what I'm looking for out of this book
Is to continue to spread the ideas to people
So that we can move this forward and have people say like
Look like I may not discuss point
Maybe someone will say it's not for me
It's not for my business or at least not yet
But for people to understand it and not look at it
Like we did like the early internet social media
All these different you know even cell phones at one point
Like all these different like technologies credit cards
Right online banking all these like technologies
Which not that these are all analogous
They're all in various places of the spectrum
But the point being like these technologies all at some point
Have had people say I will never bank online
I will never use a credit card
I don't need to use the internet it's a scam
Video games are for kids only
Like you know cell phones are never like
You saw for people who have you know are around my age
Like a lot of them went through a similar experience
Where my dad refused to get a cell phone
Because it was a waste of time he had a house phone
And then by the time I got him on a cell phone
He couldn't put it down and he loved it
He loved the connection to the world he had with it
And so like I think this technology in a lot of ways
Like trying to get it to that point and share the ideas
And move it forward is something that I'm really proud
To potentially play a small part in
But um I don't know that was like a like a poetic opining
Scott I don't know if you'll you probably have
A more academic answer than me for sure
You guys are impressive Scott go for it
No no go ahead I was actually saying like
That's sufficiently close to my prior in my story
That like if you want to do another question we can do it
But like I don't know it's just
It's really cool to have been able to bring together all of the thinking
Right like as an academic right you're about trying to
You're about trying to understand stuff more deeply
And like particularly when you do ethnography
When you do stuff that's about understanding communities
And like ways of being and interacting
You're trying to understand it in a way that when you then
Reflect it back to people they hear
And they say like wow that really does feel like us
That's that is the story that like we're living
And so what's been really gratifying to me is that like
I feel like I've come to a new and newer and deeper understanding
And and that so far at least we've been you know
We've been feeling like it really resonates anyhow sorry
I was gonna ask another question but I feel like
Those I couldn't have thought of a better answer
To my question than what you guys just laid out
It was almost like a mic drop kind of answer
And I'm like all right well I don't think I have another question for you guys to be honest
Otter your notes I feel like they're they're written pretty long let's go over to you
I mean I it's funny I asked Steve a question yesterday
That he said he hasn't he didn't hear before
And a lot of my questions I think are coming from
Me working on my coffee table book so I'm in that like earlier stage of not having it finished yet
But there's things that are changing about me as I dive into my own subject matter
And so that's where my question yesterday for Steve came from
And so I have another one of these and maybe this one has been asked before
But maybe people here haven't heard you guys answer it yet
And I know that we're talking a lot about the impact that this book can have on other folks
Your relationship to NFTs has changed as you started writing about NFTs
And this idea of the everything token in a bull market which then went to a bear market
Which then here we are in whatever market we're in and you have a finished product
At the beginning you would have had a relationship to NFTs on your own
And I'm wondering if that's changed and how it has changed post both markets
And having an entire book on NFTs now
This is an excellent question and once again just like yesterday
You're asking me something that nobody has come even remotely close to asking me
So like I love the fact that you've now done this twice in a row
You're on a heater tomorrow. We need to go into space
So we keep the streak going but like I'll say this like for me like
It's hard for me to bifurcate the difference between writing the book and how I've changed there
I can try and I will but like at the same time experience the market maturation
And learning more about the different brands that are being built in this space
So it is hard to like bifurcate those two things in the sense that like
I have so many data points contributing to my relationship with NFTs
With web 3 with everything going on here that obviously things are going to contagion one way or the other
Based on my experience with you know pixel vault and seeing what they've evolved to be at the same time
I'm writing a book where I'm talking about like building businesses at the same time
I'm experiencing board API club and like their shift away from then back to community and all those different things
I would say to me if anything I would say it raised my conviction in
The ideas that we share in the book and the way the technology can affect different brands and through its maturation because
There are things that happen while we are writing where and I can't remember it
It might be Nike might be an example
I can't remember what the examples were but there would be times when Scott and I would be writing
And like we would have a conceptual idea that we would just be like painting and then
Something would happen that would actually flesh out that idea and be successful or unsuccessful and we would put it in the book
And be like hey, we have a new we have a new example here. And so for me, I think
It didn't change my relationship with NFTs. I think personally over time
I have evolved in the sense that I was looking at community built brands
Um, you know everything we have by the way
I feel really proud of our hb article because that thing still stands up if you google how NFTs create value actually
Very much still does stand up and stand the test of time and how it goes, but I think for me
Realizing like there was I was probably more heavy on the brand building side when I walked in
Um with like, you know sort of like applications that were here and there of what the blockchain could do
But I think what it probably helped me do
Was really suss out and beat up the ideas of what this technology can do in an instances
Pull back where editor challenged us push forward where she said hey, there's definitely something here
And so for me, it's almost expanded my horizons in that way in that
Not that I didn't think of those ideas before but it's made me have a more balanced perspective where
I was probably heavily into the brand building community building idea and I ended up pulling back and having many more
Um mundane boring like really cool applications of blockchain as we look through them
Whereas I maybe had one or two examples before I feel like I now look at this book and I have
A gaggle of examples to go to which actually makes it easier as I mentioned earlier to talk to other people
You know friends and families, etc about it
But scott did your did your relationship change at all with nfts throughout it? Oh, I mean
You know one of the things that going through first of all just like, you know
It's actually really hard to build in the midst of a hype cycle because like things are changing and moving so quickly
Actually having things slow down a little bit gave us time to like reflect and for perspective
but the other thing is exactly as we were saying right like the
The main exercise was in trying to get to the you know, sort of
the principles that were true
Independent of you know, sort of the state of the market, right?
We were trying to understand like what nfts are and like what you can do with them at some very core fundamental level and like how that
and so I think the discipline of seeing both waves of
Of how sort of like the attention around nfts has looked and the different products that have been built and like which ones succeeded
And which ones didn't and like, you know
And you know and which ones you know
And which ones like struggled and then succeeded and which ones succeeded initially and then struggled like is seeing all of those like phases
I think was incredibly helpful in disciplining our thinking and trying to like really push us to like
Say things that were that were concrete and general and and true
And the other thing I also say like one of the guides one of the earliest conversations the publisher
They said look you really need to be writing the book for the late adopters
And we really took that to heart also, right we were trying to write in a way that would
Make sense and be useful to the people who were intrinsically skeptical and were out of the fray of the you know, sort of the chaos
But still, you know could benefit a lot from the technology
The concept of slowing time down because this space moves incredibly fast and I literally wrote this this morning and I tweeted it now
I think that we get lost in what's going on
And because we're so close to the painting of what we're building and what's being done here
We forget to kind of take a step back
Look at the broad scope of everything and see actually how much we've painted how much has been done
Right because when you're up close to a painting and it's so large
You probably can't see the completion of it and how it looks from abroad
That's why people step back to go look at the painting
Have you been to the dolly museum? That's across you off real quick. Andrew
I want to let you cook but like have you been to the dolly museum before in tampa?
Okay, real quick. Just and I'll let you go
There is literally a dolly picture that does just that
Where you get close to it and you see one picture and then you step back and you see a greater picture
And I forget who it is. It's like somebody famous that they've that they've painted
But I should find it because i'm butchering it
But like there's actually a picture that illustrates this concept incredibly well
But anyway keep going but I just I just thought that as you were talking i'm like this sounds
If you haven't been to the dolly museum, like you should go because it does that and by the way
Amazing guided tour you can get there. It's it's phenomenal
That's crazy. I don't know what you were saying
Since they've been there, it's awesome
No, yeah, like that's how I think that's how the space feels like
Everyone's so head down in the trenches like a quote unquote in the trenches that like we're so close to the painting
To steve's great metaphor their analogy
But we forget to take a step back and see you know
What this actually has been done here over the past 12 months
We've complete we've completed one portion of the painting like we should you know slow time down as much as we can steve
And you wrote this two days ago or last week and I and I mentioned this even your in your mentions that like
We're so into this that we forget to slow it down
And one way that I personally have slowed time down in my life is that I bought a calendar starting this calendar year
And every day that passes by I crossed off before going to bed to recognize what i've done that week
What was progressive what was good?
What was not good and it slowed down the days for me a little bit to now where I kind of stay more in
The moment my goal for 2024 and it's just one of them is to be more present
And I think we collectively need to do that as an industry. I do want to ask one more question
I promise and then we can wrap this thing up, but this question is subjective to you guys
A lot of time. I think people are asking authors co-authors
What's in it for the people what's in it for you know, then what do you think they're gonna like about it?
I do want to ask you guys. What do you what's your favorite part of the book from you guys from your own perspective?
Oh, wow, I haven't even thought about this yet. What is my favorite part of the book? Um
This is going to sound very corny
Actually is like more of a broad scope thing that we get to include, you know
Yuga labs and doodles and you know
Elite skulls and all these wonderful communities in our books because they give great in our book because they give great examples
Of what this technology can do because it's really cool to be able to talk about conceptual examples with like automobiles
It's really cool to talk about
Starbucks and nike what I think is awesome is there are pioneers like
Funds at token proof or others who are building these great technologies these great pixel vault and the fact that their devs
saved the day for adidas right one time and and then we get to tell that story of the book and
And how that matters and how having the right partners right people and the specialists matter and so
To me. My favorite part is probably like i've spent the last three years with my friends building in this space
Understanding like trying to do my best to like wrap my head around this technology
And the fact that like i've got to watch people build businesses that ultimately become case studies to show
Awesome elements of what this technology can do. That's probably my favorite part of the book
Uh, so I will totally echo that the you know one way to read the book, um
Is you know sort of as a thank you note to nft land, right?
All the people we've learned from and like and we and we tried to like, you know
We try to recognize as many as possible and you you always know you miss some so apologies
Like, you know, you can't you can't fit every single one in and like, you know
You know, like, you know, you have 5 000 examples you have to pick like 27 of them
But like really like we tried to cover a broad exam
Broad like sort of swath of all the different parts of experience and different ideas people have had and shared with us along the way
And then the other thing I mean and and this is like kind of silly
But it is it is a little bit of an easter egg or like, you know
I don't you you wouldn't really call it alpha exactly. But if you're reading the book, you should really read the footnotes
Steve and I have this blended voice that like we really wrote it
The book really feels like in a sort of completely contiguous like blended voice throughout
Any of the most significant personality notes are are hidden in footnotes. So it's worth looking at the easter egg
Scott, did you get this? I don't know if you got this
What are the most hilarious and most complementary things and how alive we are like andrew mentioned like we're very similar in sense
Like we have these like really like again the the footnotes
The people who read the footnotes have not been disappointed because there's some silliness in there. But what the biggest compliment I got is
There's like one section where we start off
You know with this elephant in the refrigerator analogy that scott had put in initially that that tells the story really well
It's long story. I won't get deep into it
But it's sort of hearkening to that joke and what's funny about how aligned scott and I are
Is that I had one of my test readers who's like one of my best friends in the world
I've known her for a long time
She knows me as well as anybody she read it and she's like
I could tell that you wrote that and i'm like actually that was scott and it's like one of the best compliments I get is that like
Are like shenanigans that we have which are like it's sort of like meant to be academic yet approachable and fun to read
Because we want people to have fun
And like the other thing i'll say about it that I do like about the book personally that i've gotten feedback on is you know
What makes her editor so great?
Is that she didn't try to like say this is the style you must write the book
She asked us how do you want to write and we're like, well, we're a little fun and whimsical and she's like, okay
She's like, what about stylistically and we're like
Well, we kind of like how seth godin has like different digestible things because this is a lot of heavy stuff
And we want to have headlines and things like that. She's like great. We'll make that work
And so we were able to make it work in a way that
Really speaks to us and that feels authentic to us
It's not like we wrote a book in penguin style or editor style. It really is to scott's point
Us writing a book that's authentic to who we are and putting it out in the world
And it just makes it that much more special
But yeah, when I got the when I got the feedback of somebody being like yeah
Like uh steve I could tell you wrote that I was like scott wrote that and that's how you know
That her voice is like that locked up
No, that's perfect. Steve. I think I think that's the way it should be in my personal opinion never written a book
I've read a lot of books, but I think when when the blend is there
I think you know, ideally i'll say this and we can wrap this up when I read this book
I want to hear scott's voice and steve's voice in my head as I go through the lines and I think to me
That's a probably something that i'm looking forward to doing like i've written a lot of books when I hear the author's voice in my head
I'm like, this is a this is a good damn book. This is a damn good book. Um,
Steve scott appreciate your time. You guys have the final thoughts. I did I did get a quick dm final thoughts plus
Where can people pick it up?
So final thoughts will be where people can pick it up. I'll do this look appreciate the conversation. Great questions. Andrew great questions rudo
Great questions outer lumen. Everybody, um, you know, appreciate you mac and valley everyone out there, right?
What I would say is like my final thought is this where can you pick it up?
My tweet at the top is a link to amazon, but anywhere you buy books
Anywhere you buy books you can find this book
It is out in the wild like you can get it and it'll be officially on shelves on tuesday
So if you pre-order it now does us a ton to help us kind of move that forward
So my ask could be this like i've been saying this to a lot of people like if you listen to coffee with captain
Or you like the space or you look, you know, you want to support people who've been building
I have rarely if ever asked anybody to spend money on anything
I think the only thing i've ever shilled was my brother's charity at one point where I said hey if you're feeling generous
Donate to this charity, right?
The thing that I will say is that if I have ever brought you 0.012 worth of value where scott has ever brought you that in
That's the equivalent price of this 0.012 money
You would spend on gas sending an nft from a hot wall to a cold wall is what it would cost to buy this book
So, uh do us a favor. It's 29 like go up to that link up top
Buy the book any retailer anywhere you buy book it all it all's good to us
Um mean would mean a lot to us and if you can't swing the $30 book totally get it
Just give that tweet above a like or retweet a comment a bookmark to let people know so that maybe someone who can
Spread the word and see it. So that'll be my final thought
Um on that is that you know, it means the world to us
And if you buy it tweeted us because we love having those conversations with the people who support it
Um means a lot to us. So uh do that if you're up for it
Um, so I'd end with that but you know scott i'll pass to you
No, I mean, um exactly like first of all like if please if you read like let us know
Even even if you read like one page and you want to let us know what you think of that one page
We would love to hear from you, right? Like we're you know
You know as as a part of this community and and it means a lot to us to like have the community
Hear from you know sort of to hear from the community and have the community like experience the product. Um
Let me just close sort of on that sort of note, right like with a huge. Thank you
Right, like I think we've said multiple times in the space both steve and I write like
This is not something we could never have done
Without all of you and without like everyone who's like innovating and building in web 3 and nft space specifically, right? Like, you know
First of all, I mean like if this didn't exist, there wouldn't be any questions to ask
But more importantly if you guys all didn't exist there wouldn't have been answers
All of the conversations right like I you know in
Two years plus epsilon, right i've gone from someone who was like, I don't get it
Like what the heck is this to like this is something I am teaching all of my students
They have to be aware of and like sort of understand because it's a big part of the internet
That's been like one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life like to to learn this thing so deeply and so quickly and especially alongside steve
Like, you know, you know, as I said most extraordinary collaborator ever, right?
Thank you for giving us this opportunity to learn and and then to teach
Qed and though and then and then you know sort of
You know crew. Thank you so much for hosting us. This has like been so much fun
Incredible questions great hosting great space like you rock
Appreciate you guys and I will say this you guys are welcome back anytime. Steve Scott
We've been the dm's whatever you guys want to come back on next month tomorrow, you know in an hour from now
You guys let me know you welcome back anytime. We appreciate you guys ruto final thoughts for you my co-host
No, you guys are seriously incredible
You guys the value ad that you are creating not just for our what our little bubble that we have here in web3 on twitter
But just for those outside of this bubble, i'm looking to learn more
So just a huge shout out to you guys man. Really appreciate you come up here and answering some questions as well
Thanks guys. Last thing. It's funny that I realized everyone on stage actually has purchased the book today, which is interesting
Um, or everyone on stage has it three of us today have purchased it, you know today or yesterday guys appreciate your time
Be sure to give scott all the followers all the speakers up here a follow
But we'll see you guys next time. Enjoy the rest of your uh, I think today is friday, right guys
Yeah, today's friday. Enjoy the rest of your friday. Enjoy your weekend and thanks guys. Everyone. Have a good rest of your day. Thanks a ton