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Studio Hour Ep.3: jiwa
Recorded: Jan. 28, 2026 Duration: 1:07:58Space Recording
Short Summary
Jiwa's upcoming solo show 'Counterspace' at Gallery Met in Berlin promises to redefine generative art, blending technology with human experience. The project highlights Jiwa's growth as an artist and reflects emerging trends in the digital art landscape.
Full Transcription
Thank you. Thank you. Music Thank you. Music Thank you. hello everyone jiwa let's do a bit of a sound check can you hear me
check one check one can you hear? I can hear you perfectly.
I was about to make a joke that someone's uncle once made at the wedding
where they were testing the microphone and he went,
test, test, testicle, which was a hit.
My favorite one of that nature is testes, testes, three that's really good that's excellent nice I feel
like this is an excellent warm-up we kicked things off with stand-up comedy special yeah let's keep
it loose exactly exactly just like in Marfa where we got to share a couple of beers
and had a whale of a time, which is always fun.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I think I also enjoyed our London hangout with the whole fam.
That was amazing.
Yeah, you got to meet Blue, and I know you and Blue Moon, you know,
hit it off, so that was cool no i was literally
before i was going to ask you anything about yourself i was going to ask how the blues both
the blues were doing yeah they're doing great um baby blue is growing fast and yeah, we're expecting another one in March.
So it's the, yeah, like the clock's ticking, everything's going to change and it's going
to be madness, but all good things.
Oh, that's going to be so great.
I can already envision Baby Blue being a great big sister.
For those who don't know Baby Blue, first of all, cutest child I've ever laid eyes on.
And then second of all, super smart, super curious.
We were in this kind of scary, kind of like super different exhibition in London. And she was just super chill.
I was more scared of the exhibition than she was.
Yeah.
She's so great.
She is.
She, you know, she's used to it.
And she likes to see interesting things.
She found, like, some little, like, artworks that no one else had really noticed.
And luckily, the hallway leading into the exhibition had all this, like, blue lighting.
And so she just wanted to hang out in there.
But I'm sad to announce that her favorite color is no longer blue,
which would have really just been an epic, you know, lifelong,
lifelong journey if her name was blue and her favorite color was blue.
But we've transitioned into pink land and, you know.
I've been there.
You just got to accept these things, you know.
Listen, old pink has a little bit of blue in it most of the time.
I guess that's true.
Well said.
We're still there.
We're still there.
But I'm so excited.
Thank you so much for making the time to kind of come sit with us for this studio hour.
It's going to be super interesting for people to kind of hear more
about you because not only are you an excellent generative artist but you're also all around a
super super interesting character um for those of you who don't know juak he's literally the
coolest person you'll bump into in any generative art event, especially around Europe. And you do this
really cool thing, silent meditation. And do you have anything to share with us in terms of like
how that affects your practice and how you create artwork? Yeah, so we can start there. That's good. You know, I think that,
you know, when people find their way into these type of things, right, like going to a
10-day silent meditation retreat, you're, you know, I feel like you got to be a little bit crazy to do it and or like,
feel a little unbalanced, feel like you need to tap into something, you know. And so, yeah,
I think like go going there is just it's just like a really big let go of things and accept new things
and be open to something completely different
that's probably going to be really hard,
but just to be open to what it can provide for you.
And as far as I think that that willingness and that that you know ability or I should say like
developed skill because it doesn't come naturally to most people or you know anyone really it's
something you got to work on it's it's it's key for being an artist, I think, you know, really being searching and being open to finding something and exploring it further. So honestly, like, I was a maniac in my 20s. And, you know, I going in these type of practices and silent meditation, it just it allowed me at a very base level to kind of get my shit together in a different, you know, in a certain way and and explore myself in a way that opened up a lot of possibilities.
And so and then I I met my wife like I went and did the first silent meditation course and then I met my wife going back there and volunteering. So we met each other like washing dishes next to each other in the kitchen.
And so she's also provided me an insane foundation. And, you know, without her, I probably
wouldn't be here doing this in some way, shape or form. So yeah, I think it's probably a good
place to start. I mean, it's amazing amazing because you can really see a lot of collaboration between you and Blue Moon.
Like even in Martha, when you're doing the portraits, she was there and Baby Blue was also there.
And it's very apparent that you guys really kind of feed each other off when it comes to these creative endeavors, which is great,
because I know she's also brilliant in her own right. And it's very cool to see.
With that in mind, I know, like you and Blue Moon live abroad now. You live in Europe, in Berlin.
And I wanted to know if there's anything at the moment that's been occupying your mind this week in particular.
I know there's been a lot going on everywhere,
but in your world in particular, what's going on?
Yeah.
Well, if you've been watching my Twitter at all,
I have a solo show opening on Friday. So that's really exciting. It's with Gallery Met, which is, you know, a gallery here in Berlin that's been supporting digital art and showing digital artists for a few years here now. And yeah, I'm really excited to be showing
something. It was actually kind of crazy, you know, and I'll just, yeah, just talk about it
as openly as I can. It was kind of, it kind of came, it's not something that has been like in
the works for months and months and months. It kind of came together kind of quickly. And luckily,
I had been working on something that I could kind
of pluck out develop and make happen for the show and I was really excited about
just being able to do that and being in it up in a place with my practice where
I've kind of have some different branches growing in different directions
and to be able to take one of those and develop it in a really fairly short
amount of time I mean I don't know what, you know, the audience, what you guys know about generative art in particular,
but usually it takes a long time to create and finalize a project. It's a lot of work,
especially like when you go down the whole long form route. So yeah, so I'm really grateful that
they hit me up. It really this project like wouldn't
exist. It's called counter space. But it wouldn't exist if they didn't hit me up. And we put this
show together, I would have just continued building the bigger project that I've I've been
working on. And it like, it just wouldn't exist in the way that it exists right now. So So yeah,
we were today was install day. So we were hanging, you know, putting,
putting prints in frames and hanging them and getting the TV squared away. And there's all
kinds of cool little screens and little hideaways in that gallery that we, um, we have some cool
things in store for. So that's basically been my last few weeks, my last three or four weeks,
aside from, of course, supporting my family and doing all of that.
And yeah, it's pretty, pretty exciting. I'm pretty stoked on it. I think, honestly, it's like my
best work yet. And, you know, if the current project can always be your best work yet,
then that's the goal. So yeah, so I'm really excited about that. And it's been a lot.
Today was a long day. But I'm still I'm energized just to be here with you guys and close out the day with y'all.
It's literally so nice of you to actually do this on install day because I know it's a lot later for us than it is in America.
So really appreciate it.
But I want to know, like, I love the name.
But I want to know, like, I love the name.
Counterspace is fantastic.
And I'd love to know, like, how did you get into a headspace where you're like, this is the name I'm going to give the project?
Like, where did it come from?
Totally.
So this past summer, I went to a museum called the Hamburger Bahnhof here in Berlin.
And they had a big Joseph Beuys exhibition. And I was familiar
with him, but I hadn't really done a deep dive of his work. He is just a different thinker. And when
you look at his artwork, he's one of those that you would consider, I guess, conceptual in a way, but not really in a way that I could compare him with anyone else.
He is also, you know, one of his key things is that anybody can be an artist. If you are doing
something intentionally with awareness, with putting your full attention into exactly what
you're doing, whether it's cutting vegetables or, you know,
being a nurse in a hospital or whatever.
But if you do things with intention,
then you're doing it with artistry and as an artist.
And I love that concept. And he just has this kind of like spiritual connection with things.
I mean, he has like, but his art is out there.
For instance, the piece that
he's most famous for is he had, he was like on stage in like this playhouse or something. And
he had this gold mask, this like mask that covered his whole head that was made with gold leaf and
honey. And he looked crazy. And you couldn't see his face because it was completely covered with this thing. And then he took a dead hair and took it around to these
bookshelves with all of these books in it. And he was teaching the hair silently. This was all
silent. But the idea was he was like teaching the hair about the world and about art and life. And
he did this for like three hours with an
audience. And then he put a chair on a, well, there was a chair on a table in the, in, on the
stage. And he climbed up on there and sat there with the, with the hair in this crazy mask. And
the audience members could come in the room and walk around while he kind of like, you know, like, was this like, big presence in the room
above them. And so he's just like, his, his stuff is unlike anything else. But so, so this is where
it kind of started. And I was really, like, taken aback by what I saw in his exhibition. And I felt
connection to it, via this kind of like spirituality that he, he talked about in his work. So I've read a couple
books by him. And one of the things that he brings up is crossing over outside of like space and time
into that etheric grander space. One of the terms he uses is counter space for that. And
it just that resonates with me and my practice a lot. I really find that,
you know, I art art making for me is very much like a spiritual act. And, you know, reaching out
into counter space to to pull out something special and channel that and share that with
the world is like, you know, what I try to do with my art. So, and then I also, you know, thinking about it and exploring it a little bit more, I thought that
it was interesting to kind of relate counter space, the digital space, because normal space,
you know, adheres to physics and space time, but counter space does not. And digital space is like
that, you know, I did a project with this artist, Bernard Vinay, and he works with sculpture
and he, uh, you know, we did things with physics or antiphysics or whatever in, in the work
that I made with him that his cultures can't do in the, in the real world.
So you can do things in, in the digital world that you can't do in the real world.
So in that way, it's also kind of,'re relating counter space, the digital space. And yeah,
so it's just kind of that. I think that's, yeah, that's counter space.
That's amazing. I love his work, by the way. So I'm really excited that you're inspired by him.
I'm really excited that you're inspired by him because I can see a very obvious connection.
Like whenever I speak to you, it feels like there is something there of his philosophy,
if that makes sense.
And, you know, I was wondering if to you, this counter space concept for you, is it something you can return to at will?
Or does it have to kind of invite you in, if that makes sense?
You know, I think it's I also adopt, you know, some things that a lot of other great artists and writers have said, you know,
and the first thing you got to do is just show up daily. Show up daily and be open to it, right?
Like I think it was what Stephen King just talks about all the time.
You wake up in the morning, you sit at your desk, and you write.
And that's what makes you a writer.
And so that's part of it.
The other part of it is also taking a step back and going on walks.
And I like to take baths with, I get luxurious with it.
You know, I take baths with my lavender and eucalyptus oils and candles.
And, you know, also going to, even like going to the playground with my kid,
you can tap into that like childlike play and childlike wonder.
And so it's really just about being a receiver and being open to it. Even like that Lynchian that this, you know, the idea of just waiting it goes and you take it in a place that no one else in the world could take it. And I think that's, you know, that's, that's the attempt to be authentic to myself and as an artist to have an authentic practice, at least, you know, do my best to try to do that. So yeah, you just, you got to show up and you gotta stay open I would say
oh 100% again the way that really resonates with what Boyce says because he was super into the idea
of material but not material kind of thing so he felt like doing things and using materials that
felt some type of way that held energy was super important to his practice and I kind of I'm very
curious because in generative art you know you don't really hold things per se. So what would you
say are the energetic materials in your practice? Yeah, that's a really good question. You know,
code has energy. Code can do anything. It is the most pliable material, you know, even if it's not an actual like physical material.
It's the most pliable thing. And it can be stretched and pulled and pushed and built on
and subtracted from and all of the things. So, you know, there's so I, when I first started coding,
I felt just this energy come out of the ground.
And at the very beginning, you know, it took me, uh, eight months to like, really, um, I had a
eureka moment personally. I don't know. I don't think this happens to, you know, it happens,
it can happen to some people or whatever. Some people just learn over time and, you know,
gradually they can slip into speaking the language but for me I
remember I had a distinct moment where I like stopped in my tracks looked up in my head and
all of I had been kind of like banging my head together and just patching code together without
really understanding how it worked this was back in like man man, 2010, something like that.
And one day after about eight months of doing that, just like going at it, but not in like making things work, but not really understand exactly what I was doing.
I had like a eureka moment.
I looked up in my head and all of the dots, all of the dots and all of the synapses connected in like a single moment and I got it and I ran back to my desk and I wrote something and it worked and I was like holy
shit I have this and so ever since that moment really there's been this energy just comes out
of the ground because it feels like you can do anything you can you can make or build anything that you want if you understand
these building blocks um and yeah so that was really exciting it's funny like that around that
time um that facebook movie social network came out and that movie really kind of like glorified
coding if y'all remember you know it was all about these about these, you know, they, of course, like hyped
it up in a way that probably doesn't really happen. Like all these people drinking and partying. And
there's like all these coders on a computer, you know, on 10 computers. And I don't, I don't know
if that actually happens. Maybe it does. But, but anyway, it added a little bit of fuel to the fire,
you know, that's based all of those big tech companies were, you know, really coming up and coding and software was really exciting at the time.
There was a lot of opportunities and being able to code felt freeing and it felt like, you know, you could do anything.
And so when you talk about energetic material, I mean, it's that raw, the raw material of code itself.
It holds so much potential energy that it's just it's that raw, the raw material of code itself, it holds so much potential energy
that it's just, it's incredibly exciting. I still get excited and jazzed up to it,
you know, to this day. No, that's amazing. And I was wondering, like, what's the first thing that
kind of exists when you begin a new body of work? Is it an image? Is it a rule? Is it a feeling? Is it a constraint? Is it
like a line of code that kind of went wonky and you're like, oh, actually, I kind of like the way
this looks? Yeah. I would say that the answer to that question would change based on different
kind of like periods of my practice. If we were to go back to like 2020 2021 it
was really I was exploring different techniques and then yeah a lot of it is
like oh this this little error led to this thing and then this thing led to
that and then you try to understand what happened so you can exploit it a little
bit more but now I would say it's really,
whenever I'm working on one thing, I just have so many ideas and like the idea for the next thing
just pops up, but I have to finish what I'm working on now. But it's actually really great
because over the last year or two, I've really, uh, had
these ideas that I haven't had any time to do anything with yet, but they are, they can marinate
and they have so much more time and freedom to marinate because I already have like a queue of
things that I'm working on. And so, um, yeah, like it can be a year or more that I've kind of had this idea and it just keeps baking and or something will pop up and I'll add to it and then something else will happen.
I'll be like, oh, man, like this answers all those other questions or fills in all these other holes to that concept.
So I always have ideas.
And lately, it's been really cool because I've been given this opportunity to let these concepts bake for a little bit longer.
And I think that's really exciting because as I continue on my path, the works can be more conceptually sound as I go on. You know, the first few years, I
really overstressed like things being perfect and making sure it's all really presentable and I,
you know, all this stuff. And I'm still a perfectionist at the end, you know, to a degree,
like it, you have to, it has to get to that certain level that you feel really good that
no matter what happens, you can look back on it and feel good about it.
But at the same time, I've gotten better at letting go and just letting go and knowing
that this is the thing of where I'm at right now.
And, and I will be able to develop that a little bit, you know, develop that or, or
it could be one, one line of code that changes in changes and it like resolves the whole thing.
But I don't have to stress about that.
And so, yeah, maybe that describes it the best that I can.
No, that's a really good description.
And I think it's really cool how there is this extreme connection to the mind in your work.
And whenever I think of your work,
I like to think of dust as an exploration of accumulation.
For those of you who are not familiar with GWAS project
that came out with Artblocks, it was called Dust.
And it was like dust, Pixels, Community.
So I was wondering, and then Portraits came out in Marfa,
which were amazing, live drawn,
and then the algorithm kind of fed from the drawing.
So I was wondering if Counterspace is kind of like a continuation
of this thinking, or if it's like more of a departure and you're going on a different direction yeah um that's a good question i think
um counter space is a bit of a continuation it's it's like a refinement it's um it's a bit of a
refinement of the process that I used to create portraits.
And I actually have another project that I'm going to be releasing over the next couple months
that is also made with a similar technique as portraits, and I made it last summer.
And, you know, there are some reasons that I haven't released it yet,
but it uses a similar technique as portraits, where I would draw these, make these gestures
in a custom drawing app, and then those would be translated in real time by the artwork
in the browser.
But yeah, I'm really interested in kind of being able to take a very, what can be a very rigid and geometric practice oftentimes, using code and math and stuff to create art, but do it in a very kind of more human way that brings out the inconsistencies and the rough edges. And so that's kind of where, and also I get to put my human mark on it in a way
other than just coding it. And that's kind of where, you know, like portraits came from a little
bit. And, but of course I see things in there, you know, there's things like, oh, I want to develop
this more. I want to try to refine that more and stuff. And so I began to explore that a little bit.
find that more and stuff. And so I began to explore that a little bit. And counter space is
completely algorithmic. So there are no human gestures in it. But I refined a lot of the
techniques in portraits and are experimenting with them in different ways. And then, of course,
just some things happened where I'm like, in front of my computer late at night and you know I changed
this changed that and uh and then something happens that really in counter space gives it
this like softness um that I was really surprised by and and it really uh I think works with the
concept of counter space because um you know it's it's about this dividing line, right, between space and counter space,
the dividing line between something being kind of mathematically bound and pixelated yet soft.
And so, yeah, I would say it's a bit of a continuation in, I would say a continuation
more than a departure, but I think all my work over the last
couple years couple years has all been a bit of a continuation and trying to continue to learn
new techniques but also explore different ideas and and see how they can all kind of like
combine and merge together you're really good at doing that, by the way, because I've noticed that whenever I see your work, I know it's your work, even if it's a different project.
And even if it looks aesthetically different, I think you kind of really nailed how to project your assets into your work. And I was kind of wondering also, I saw some of the images you shared of Counterspace
and it feels really animated to me. And then there's also like this pixelated aspect to it,
but it's also soft. So all of these tensions are kind of there and I see them are they intentional do they kind of
emerge from the systems you create yeah thank you for saying that that's like a something's
always really nice to hear about your work and so yeah you know I think it's hard, right? Because there's obviously a ton of intention there. And just the energy that I bring to my work is, you know, it's very intentional. But the most one of the most exciting parts of art making is the, the emergence as well, right? And so I am obsessed with learning and obsessed with, you know, it's interesting when you make a generative art project specifically, too.
It's like you look at so many outputs, you look at thousands and thousands and thousands of usually at the time that it's my best work etc etc like there is a bit of you know I don't want to say you're you're
bored of it or anything but you've you've you've seen it so much that
there's this innate aspect to it that you you want to further develop it. And so it's a tough question to answer, I would say,
but there's definitely more and more as the years go by,
there's more intention concept up front
and developing around something that's more premeditated,
but you have to leave room for the exciting things to emerge
because in my opinion, that's like what makes art the most fascinating.
I love work that shows me something that my brain could not have imagined.
have imagined. And that really opens up the kid childlike aspects of just like being a human,
being an adult, when you see something that you couldn't have imagined with your own mind.
And yeah, so I love to kind of capture that in some way if I can. And I hope to have enough time to push projects in a way that
stays open to that moment happening. And once it happens, you know it. Like, the second it happens,
you feel like you really have landed somewhere. And it's so exciting and gratifying. And just
that feeling alone is, like, enough of a reason to just keep going like I'll be doing this for forever so yeah
that's really amazing and um I also like the fact that you're obsessed with learning
um and I feel like a lot of artists have that feeling um just to address that comment you made
where when they look back at their work,
sometimes they're like, oh my God.
I've seen this so many times
and I'm kind of like on a different page,
but it's also a really nice record
of the evolution that took place.
And it's almost kind of like an emotional document
of where you were at at that given point in time.
But I was wondering
you've you've been learning a lot your whole life because you're a curious person by nature
and I was I was kind of trying to understand like do you feel like you've taken taken any big takeaways from Counterspace as a project?
Like, is there anything that really stuck with you,
whether that's a new cool technique or something philosophical or, you know, anything?
Hmm.
Well, I kind of mentioned it already. I think like I was really,
it was a cool, it was a really nice moment to have been given this opportunity with a gallery
and being able to say like, oh, we have like four and a half weeks or something like that.
we have like four and a half weeks or something like that.
Yeah.
You know, sign me up, put me in, put me in coach.
And to have work that I didn't stress either.
Like I, I've been very, I just feel prepared.
I feel ready for, for, I felt ready for, to, to do it even in a short amount of time and
to have work, you know, just to be always
working and to have work that at a moment's notice, you know, you can, you can say, yeah,
like put me in. Um, that was a cool moment because a lot of times these big prod, these projects or
releases, they can, they can come with a lot of stress and especially with certain algorithms.
I mean, depending on what type of project it is.
And again, especially long form, which this is not a long form project.
I am curating these, but it's a lot of work to finalize an algorithm.
I mean, shit can break.
You have to test it on every device.
That's something that's pretty unique to generative art, right?
Is that a video will play on any device. The image you can see on any device. That's something that's pretty unique to generative art, right? Is that a video will play
on any device, the image you can see on any device, nothing's really going to happen to it.
But the code runs differently on a Samsung and an iPhone and, you know, a PC or a MacBook or
different versions of a Samsung phone, different graphics cards that may be in different devices.
And you have to test all of that and call up friends who have different types of computers
and get them to test shit for you.
And it can be a lot.
And then especially my work, I almost always put a focus on making sure it's fully responsive and it adapts to any screen size
because I think that, you know, if my canvas is the browser, the most native art to the browser
is something that changes based on the size of that browser and whatever device you're looking
at. So, you know, you have a responsive work that even on the same computer, you have to make sure
it looks good square and landscape and portrait and every freaking size in between. And then on
all the other all these different devices, it those same variables have to work nicely. So it's just a lot. And
with Artblocks, I don't know how much you guys have heard this, but when Artblocks, when you
used to release a project with Artblocks, like on Presents or Curated, you had a team of people
there helping you with these things. They had all these tools and like a suite of tools to like
test it on all these different sizes and test it
on different devices and, and stuff. But when you don't have that, it just creates a whole other
task. So just I say that to say to for this project to be able to kind of show up with a work
that I feel confident in, I know it'll work everywhere everywhere because it's, you know, the base of it is a code base where
I've tested it against all of that stuff already.
And then obviously, I think it's also very new and looks nothing, very, very little like
anything else I've done in the past.
So to kind of hit all of those marks and be able to say, yeah, like, let's do it.
Sign me up.
Let's do a show together and and, you know, etc.
And then not to, like, stress that much, and just to kind of, like, take each day as it is,
is really, it's hard to put that into words, like, how much looking back on my journey that I feel
like I've grown personally as a human, but also with my work to be able to get to a point where I could do that comfortably. Would you say you're like in a generative state? I don't know. Uh, uh, I, I,
sure. I guess maybe not. I mean, it's such a, it's such a weird concept, a generative state.
Fair. It's such a weird concept, a generative state.
But yeah, I'm kind of like, I'm thinking about,
like, is there a moment in this project
where a certain level of unpredictability becomes the point?
Like, what can we expect when we go to the gallery and look at your work?
Is there anything, any twist?
Yeah, no.
The unpredictability is kind of what it's all about, right?
Those are the edge cases are like what can define a generative collection.
But this one, I curated it,
and I built all this custom software.
I, you know, vibe-coded straight up all of this,
like this curation software and stuff.
That's one really cool.
Just to speak on AI a little bit,
obviously that's omnipresent everywhere all the time.
You know, it's really cool to be able to like have a,
I literally have a dev team, like I have a
full on dev team of like junior developers that I can have build systems around my art. And I don't
really use it for like, the visual aspects of my art, because that's, you know, the that's the most
fun and interesting aspect for myself to explore is, you know, actually what is happening in the
artwork on in the browser. But I can use AI now to build all these systems around art.
And for instance, that whole portrait system that you and Giannis experienced in Marfa,
the being able to draw in this drawing app, and then click
a button in my app, and that immediately pushed the portrait up to the projection. And then also,
there was this other computer where you could kind of like, explore the algorithm of your own work
in real time, right after I did it, like, I that would have taken me weeks, at least to build
without, you know, AI, And I did it in like a
night or two, like I did it in a night, and then I refined it over like a day or two or whatever.
And it's just amazing to be able to do that. So for this project, I built all this kind of
curation software exactly how I wanted it. And it included the like each page, it takes like 15
minutes to get it right. It's absolutely insane.
So to answer your question about the unpredictability,
each piece, the pieces that I selected for this,
each one is like a surprise for me. As I'm going through and curating, I curated from images first.
So I had the system generate random images on my Mac mini, like on a remote computer,
and it would generate like 500 images and then bring those images back. But it would save the
random hash for each image. So then I could save all those images that I liked and then copy all
those hashes into a generative screen where I can view each one running live.
And so I was able to like really quickly tailor down the selections.
And so each piece that's in there is kind of like unpredictable.
And it was something that I was like, oh man, like this one's really good.
And so I think honestly, like the Counterspace, as compared to my previous collections,
So Counterspace, as compared to my previous collections, I'd say it really is maybe one of the more unpredictable algorithms and works and collections that I've kind of put out because I've been able to really select for that specifically in the curation process.
That is so cool.
I can't believe you like created an actual curation tool to help you with this.
That's amazing.
That's it's incredible.
And I'm so impressed.
But also like how much control do you want the viewer to feel like when they
encountered this unpredictability and when they encounter your work?
You know, I,
there are some of my works
that do have more like interactivity.
For instance, AXO, my first kind of Artblocks release
is really the narrative and concept of that whole project
was kind of is driven by how the user interacts with it.
And obviously it has a state of its own. I feel like
when it comes to interactivity and artwork, I think the artist still needs to maintain
kind of control of the visuals. I don't want someone pushing the work in a direction that
I don't, I wouldn't like, or I wouldn't really resonate with where it goes. But I do think it's a characteristic of the medium to allow for live interactivity.
You know, you do something and it immediately interacts in some way.
It's something that's native to the generative medium and is really interesting to explore.
This work in counter space specifically is less about the viewer interacting and really more about kind of experiencing those dividing lines I talked about earlier.
But there is one interactive action that someone can take. And I think it does kind of add kind of the final layer to my definition and exploration of counter space in there.
We'll share a little bit more about that.
But there is there's a little, I guess we could say an Easter egg in there that can be found that I very well may just tell people that they can do at some point.
But that really kind of rounds out the counter space concept from interactivity feature.
So or, you know, a space of interactivity, if that I don't know if that answers your question or not.
But it did.
That was an answer and a half.
That was fantastic.
I'm not going to lie.
I am thinking whether I should just suddenly go to Berlin
to check this out.
It's very unlikely, but if something happens,
if the market suddenly pumps,
you can count me and Yanis in.
I'm speaking on his behalf.
Isn't that funny how like when the market goes up, we just all start making irrational
decisions because we feel like rich all of a sudden.
Yes.
And then when it goes down, we're all like depressed and hiding.
But no, it's cool.
I would love for you to come and, you know, no pressure it's cool. I would love for you to come.
And, you know, no pressure, all good.
But it is open for four weeks.
So there will be a finishage, which is like a closing party.
German, Berlin word for closing party.
Or it might be French, maybe.
I don't know.
On the 28th or around there, February 28th. So hey,
if you feel so compelled, please come through. You know what, I might just save up for the
finissage, which, by the way, it's so funny that you dwelled on that word because Yanis had
a fixation for that word, like a stem,
where we'd be walking around and he'd just go finisage.
And I'm like, why?
Why finisage?
Of all words, why?
It's nice.
It kind of rolls off the tongue in a nice way.
I get it.
It does.
Until you heard it like 50 times in Tokyo, which is so funny.
It's so random.
But with actually thinking about sounds, I'm going to pivot this radically
because I already feel like I've asked you so many questions about your upcoming show
and you just had your installation day.
So a little change. What's a sound you would associate with Deep Focus? That's a good question. Well, I'll start with kind of what I come always
come back to. You know, I have this funny, it's like I have this tweet in my head I should have
sent like a year ago. And there's really no reason I haven't yet.
But I think to myself sometimes it's like my main problem in life is that I'm one part Bon Iver and one part JPEG Mafia.
And I can't reconcile the two.
And I think like Bon Iver, you know, like I love his music and it's so spiritual.
It's like literally like hymns.
It's like hymns for me.
I listen to it and it just grounds me and makes me feel all of these like positive feelings in my body that like I need to uplift me in that moment if that's what I need.
And so when you talk about being focused or grounded, like,
Bon Iver comes to mind, I have this, like, this random yoga morning playlist that is like has a,
you know, kind of like a cheesy title and a cheesy cover album image, but I like randomly
found it. And it's just like these like amazing vibrational music that just
like just puts me in the zone and um I'll listen to that in the morning just to like get my vibes
right um but then also I'm a like late night maniac coder too and I will definitely put on
like JPEG Mafia and all this like really weird experimental like hip-hop with some electronica in it and like even you know and
then you know who's kind of in between those two people like say jpeg mafia and bonnie ver is like
james blake um and so i like that and um i'm i'm a big music head i grew up my dad was like a music
fanatic and he went to like 300 concerts in his
lifetime and raised us on on all kinds of like cool classic like classic rock
and different weird alleyways I was just it snowed a lot here in Berlin and now
we're just on a segue about music but I snowed here in Berlin a lot it's like
one of the most snowy winters we've had. And I took Blue out.
And we're the only ones in this park.
We're like playing in the snow.
It's like her first big snow day experience.
We're having a blast.
And I just have to.
I get called to pull out Frank Zappa's Don't You Eat That Yellow Snow.
Because like that was a lesson.
Like we're playing in the snow and
there's dogs around. And like, I, so I pulled this song out and it's like, we go back and my dad
played that album, Frank Zappa's apostrophe for me when I was, you know, like 12 or something.
And my, me and my brothers, and it's like a masterful album by this artist who just,
just doing whatever he wants. And I just absolutely love it. So yeah, that was a random segue.
But those are some sounds that are in my world,
I guess you could say.
I loved it.
And I think it makes a lot of sense.
We were talking about this in Marfa.
We had very similar dads.
So it does make sense to me that your response to this question would be
nothing short of very eclistic. So another random question, what's one thing in your studio or
workspace you would never get rid of? And your computer doesn't count.
Yeah, that's a good question that I would never get rid of. I have this nice reading chair next to my window in my office, and I have it raised up off the ground on a pallet because when it's not on the pallet, I don't get a good view out the window. And so I put a pallet under it so I can kind of like sit there, read. And we actually
moved it out of the office into our bedroom for a time. And it just didn't, that didn't work. And so
we moved it back here. So since it left and I needed to bring it back, I think that's probably
a pretty good one. I have found it's nice to have like a space in the office that you can like have a moment away from the computer.
And so I'll sit there. I'm like I've been a tea fanatic lately.
I didn't get sick all winter because I've been drinking this like lemon lemongrass tea constantly.
because I've been drinking this like lemon lemongrass tea constantly. And I think it's
partly because of like all those herbs and partly because I'm just like drinking a shit ton of water,
which is just good for you. But I'll like chill there and I'll make my tea. And even sometimes
like like when I'm building tools with AI and stuff, you know, I'll send some stuff it way
its way it has to think for a few minutes and I'll just, you know, get up,
walk away from my computer and try to, you know, sit in that chair and just have a moment away
from the screens. And so I guess for me, yeah, like having a little space in the office that's
away from the computer where I'm like comfy and I feel like invited to read or just look out the window or just close my eyes and sit there is has proven to be really nice and important.
That's an excellent answer, to be honest. We're on very different planets because if someone asked me what I can live without in my studio or whatever, it would probably be my drawer of snacks.
It's I I'm so food driven.
I'm no better than a puppy.
With that.
Snacks are good.
Snacks are good.
You know, you got to you you gotta keep stay energized somehow i'll sometimes
i i like do do some snacking uh late at night and it's usually just like um it's funny in in
germany they call like trail mix they call it student food because it's just like what it's
literally like when you buy it at the store it doesn't say trail mix or anything it says student food in german and i'll find myself like like inhaling a bag of that late at night but
i i yeah i don't need to go on another crazy tear about student food right now so why not why not
i respect your snack drawer and you gotta do do what you got to do, you know?
I feel like at this point,
I'm not sure if I have gone beyond just necessity.
It's become more of an indulgence.
If you had seen my Twitter,
now not as much
because I haven't been out and about as often,
but last year, every other picture of me that would surface from an event had some sort of item of food being brandished in one of my hands.
It was a really interesting face for me.
a really interesting face for me. But I'm going to open up the floor because we've been chatting
for a while and I wanted to see if anyone had any questions in the audience. And if they do,
I'm going to let them up on stage. If they don't, I will be asking more questions because I have
more random questions. And whilst I wait for people to send their requests in,
what would you say is a habit that kind of looks unproductive
but is actually essential?
Hmm.
Looks unproductive but is actually essential.
Okay, so I think I have have like, settled in to the fact
that a lot of my work needs to happen away from the computer. And I kind of touched on this a
little bit earlier, but, you know, thinking or having time space to just like think or have space to obviously meditate etc but
be open to new ideas you know those things to come in is part of my work and so like literally
taking a bath for like two hours when no one else is home it you it could seem lazy and it could seem like not doing the work.
But I have come and there's a time where I might have like not beat myself up about it, but maybe second guessed like, should I do that or should I be working?
And of course, there's some times where you got to sit down and get it done for whatever reason but um but the
taking the time to meditate or taking the time to literally just take a like chill out in the
bath for like two hours uh with some essential oils and some tea and like some some you know
andre 3000 new blue sun um it's essential and it's just as much part of the work as sitting and coding. It's not,
if anything, it can be more important. So I think that would be my answer to that question.
It's like giving yourself these openings to experience life and get to know what's going on in your own mind which you cannot do when
you're like fully processing all this information especially in front of
computer is essential and there was a really good quote that I heard a long
time ago from some meditation person and they were like yeah I try to meditate an
hour an hour every day but when I'm really really busy I am I try to meditate an hour every day, but when I'm really, really busy, I have to meditate for two hours because, you know, I needed even more that day.
And I'm not saying I embody that specifically, but I like the thinking there.
That's actually really interesting.
That's actually really interesting.
I do feel like we often forget that sometimes the most productive thing we can do is take a beat and kind of relax a little bit.
Couple of other random questions I have.
Is there a color you've been avoiding as of late?
Ooh, good one.
So I avoid brown in like, I think, you know, in my, in work, like black and brown, black
used to be a really essential part of my work before I started kind
of moving into like, this is going to be a technical term, but moving into like shaders
and a new technology that kind of runs on GPUs, for instance, like AXO, for the pixels to really,
for the pixels to really pop, they needed to be against a black background. And in doing so, they really popped.
Like you can even see it if you look at like Kim Asendorf's pixel decks.
Like you can't put those pixels in front of a white background.
They have to be in front of a black background.
But in the work that I'm doing now, it's a lot of things blend together.
So there's a lot of blending of colors that blend in a way that I
can't quite predict. And like black, gray, and brown usually produce a result that does not feel
digital. And sometimes it can work. Like there's a couple palettes in dust that have brown in it,
and it really, really works. And there's like these like light blues
and some other blues and some brown
and it really works well.
But in dust, the colors aren't really blending
or merging together.
So yeah, when you're kind of blending colors together
to prevent, you know, muddying is a term in painting
when colors, you know muddying is a term in painting when colors you know combine into like these kind of gray not just not really vibrant colors and with
the work that I've been doing now that's a big possibility and so those are
colors that I've kind of I'm trying to learn how to work with them because I do
think they can add a nice depth but I haven't quite figured it out yet I'm very excited to see when you eventually incorporate brown because I feel like it's such a
tricky color and it's so prone to muddying as you were saying um we have one person ready to ask a question and I'm so glad this person specifically came on stage.
Iron, take it away. What's your question? Well, I just wanted to ask you what you've
been reading about Boyce because I'm so happy to hear you talk about Boyce. Boyce has been a
massive influence on the Apocalypse Studio and actually the particular work that you mentioned
explaining pictures to a dead hair um the apocalypse studio has done a tribute piece to
that particular artwork um which has recently been collected by mad king who's here in the chat
um so i just wanted to ask you jiwa what you've been reading of voice and just like give you the
opportunity to talk about voice a little bit more.
Yeah, cool. You, I'm sure, are more of a expert than I am at this point. So yeah, feel free to
counter or add to or whatever here. But I just got up and walked across the room to this book called What is Art?
And it's been the main thing that I've been reading of his,
and it's an essay with Volker Harlan.
And, you know, to have an artist you admire have a deep conversation that begins with what is art I mean like it's so attractive and
the second I saw that I was just like I you know to hear his base theories and ideas stemming from
the initial question of what is art sounds like there's so much I can learn and pull from and get in this, you know, influential figure's mind about a topic that's so dear to me. And so that's been the text that specifically that I've been reading.
And he's so, he really is brimming with talking about, you know, just like so much information.
And he can talk about everything to like extreme detail and has an opinion on everything.
It's really inspiring.
And, you know, I look to it as a mentor, as someone I can learn so much from.
So that's specifically what I've been reading.
The concepts also that I am exploring, I was exploring before even Counterspace that I'm building kind of a bigger world around is the idea of social sculpture and that we, you know, humans working together
form a sculpture and is a piece of art, you know, and to call it a piece of art is probably not the
best way, but it's an artwork. That is, I love that concept and the fact that art is capital and art is the only way that we can evolve our civilization.
So those concepts in general are just so interesting and grandiose.
And I want to learn all the peripherals, all the peripheries of it and and try to try to learn as much as I can from this,
this person. I mean, all these actions and like the 1000s of different talks. And, you know,
he really saw talking, as you know, of course, like doing these talks and teaching as part of
his artistic practice, not just something that, you know, he had to do or, you know,
so it was like his art too. And so, yeah, all of that is just hugely inspiring.
Thank you so much for that fantastic answer. It's just amazing to hear another artist in the
space talking about Joseph Boyce and about social sculpture in particular. Social sculpture is completely foundational to the reason why the Apocalypse Studio exists. So I'd absolutely love
to connect with you further on this topic and talk more about it because I think social sculpture is
an idea that is absolutely necessary for the Web3 space. It's something everyone sort of knows
intuitively, but hearing it articulated, like, I think it's, you know,
like Node said this past weekend, let the artists show us the future. So that's a picture I'm really
living with and excited and grateful for that. So yeah, thanks, G. We're looking forward to
connecting with you more. Yeah, same. Thank you so much for asking that question. And yeah,
And yeah, I'm pretty sure we got a chance to meet in Marfa, which is super cool.
I'm pretty sure we got a chance to meet in Marfa, which is super cool. I'm glad we,
I'm glad we got to kind of like share that space and show some art together, which is cool.
So yeah, thanks so much.
And I look forward to chatting and hanging out in the future for sure.
Incredible question from Aaron.
To those of you in the audience who are not super familiar with the concept of a social sculpture. Basically, it comes from the notion
that you explained earlier in the space that every person is an artist, especially if they act with
awareness and I think intention. And basically that creativity was a shaping force rather than just an object.
With that said, thank you very much, Ayrin. That was an amazing question to kind of close this space with.
And Jiwa, I am so excited for Counterspace.
Please take so many videos and so many photos
because I think we would all be a little bit better for looking at it and
seeing it. I sure as hell will be retweeting all of the photos. But yeah, thank you so, so much for
this time. And this was such a great conversation. It was so interesting. And it's always so great
talking to you because you're so philosophical and you think so much and you're so interesting and it's always so great talking to you because you're so
philosophical and you think so much and you're so curious it's amazing and also I see blue moon in
the audience so um I'm sending you a hug and I look forward to what you're bringing into this
world in March thank you so much um no it's a absolute pleasure thank you so much for inviting
me uh and just to come and hang
out with you guys. I've been fortunate enough to bump into most of the Shiller crew and kind of
get to know you guys here and there at the different events. But it's always amazing vibes.
And thank you for all the friends that showed up, John Marshall and Manuel and different people
that popped
in and out. But it's yeah, thanks again for having me. Thank you so much for the kind
words. It's like a true, true pleasure just to come in here and chat. And thank you for
the really thoughtful questions as well. So yeah, I look forward to seeing you, you know,
in February when you come to Berlin to hang out with me, which you better do now. Just
kidding.
Absolutely manifesting it.
Yeah. Cool. Thank you so much. Thank you.
