Damn the DJ on the bankless account is know exactly how I am feeling on this morning. How you doing Ryan?
I'm feeling bullish David. How about you man? Yeah, dude, the market markets are getting loud things are getting exciting
There's a lot to be bullish on like I said in the weekly roll-up though
I'm trying to keep myself contained, you know trying to stretch this part of the market out
So it's like my favorite part of the cycle. Yeah in the Eve keeps teasing us man. It's not quite at 3k
I think I saw some charts, but just like it's been it's been playing with me all day
I've been actually this is a day. I've had the charts open, you know, I haven't opened charts in like weeks
Usually I just check them once a week
But yeah, it's it's getting exciting out there for sure and this is going to be an exciting spaces as well because we have
Sam black here here. He's the CTO of missed in labs the creator of move
We're talking about the suey protocol and the suey chain, which is I think a pretty interesting play in the parallelized
Chain space the parallelized virtual machine space Sam. How are you doing today?
I'm doing great Ryan and David. How are you guys doing? Thanks so much for having me
Fantastic good to talk to my man. Yeah, it's great to talk to you
and this is a I think our first conversation we've had with them about suey and you guys have a
I believe and that is part of the reason that suey sponsoring this Twitter space is to help get the word out about suey base camp
Which is going to be the inaugural suey ecosystem conference
And that's being held in Paris from April 10th to 11th registrations are now open
There will be a link for you here on the Twitter spaces to go access that
So this is your first conference. It sounds like the first suey base camp ever. Is that right Sam?
That's right. Yeah, so this is the first global suite conference
The first chance we're gonna have for the entire suite community to get together in person
We've done a variety of builder houses across the world
I think we've had good local attendance with some international attempts at those
but this is really sort of a different level in terms of the
The scope of the conference and the the attendees we're gonna have a great speaker as we have the lodgey lined up to speak
We have melton demers a lot of the top suite community projects are gonna talk about what they've built and what's next for them
And the sweet quarantine is gonna be there giving technical presentations about some of the cool things
We'll discuss today as well as talking about the roadmap for the second half of the year
So it's gonna be a really really fantastic event. I'm super excited about it
We'll do another shout out toward the end of the show, but like just for people listening who should go to this event
What's what's kind of the target audience?
So absolutely sweet builders should go. I think the you know, we're a developer platform our customers are developers
That's the number one focus
I think any builders any community projects any community members and folks who are you know
Have maybe poked its way a little bit but are curious but haven't started building it or haven't tried using it yet
Want to meet other folks in the community see what's going on
Happen to be in Paris that week because there are people who are in Paris that weeks there happen to be other events going on
I'd say those are the main focuses
All right. I know you've never really been much of a conference goer except for except for permission list
but I can tell you Paris is a fantastic city to have a conference in because it just brings a ton of energy into
When what time of year is that Sam just give us the days one more time
Yes, it's April 11th of 12th. So spring only my second visit to Paris, but I went a little later in the summer last time
I'm told it's a very nice time of year not too warm yet
And yeah, if you whether you like the the conferences or not the the food and the culture can't be beat
So you can't miss for that reason
Okay. Well David you pill this on conferences at least you've been trying to pill me for a while
You just you just pill this on Paris I think it's a you know, we'll restart this conversation maybe Sam
Could you tell us a bit about suey like pill this on suey? Why suey give us some background for the project?
I understand maybe it came out of a
Facebook project called Libra once upon a time, but I've never fully connected the dots here
Maybe you could give us some context for how suey came about and like why you're building it
Yeah, I mean maybe let me start with sweet from scratch and then I'll build back that connection into the the Libra NDM project
so, you know what like what like what's the why it's we like what's our equivalent of like NASDAQ on the blockchain or like
ultrasound money or whatever else like what we want to be is we want that we want sweet to be the smart contract developer that
Every the smart contract platform that every developer wants to build on we think that smart contract platforms are for developers first and foremost
You don't recruit users you build you recruit great builders the builders who create compelling apps. That's where users come from
That's where business model that comes from etc, etc
And so when we think about this
We basically think of it in three different parts the in terms of what makes we compelling to builders
And so the first one is who can you reach? So today if you're a builder building a smart contract platform
And most of the time like your customers are gonna need to use a wallet or install a wallet
And so that really limits your total addressable market, you know
There's 60 million or so folks worldwide who've installed wallets across all chains
And so if you're a builder building on a smart contract platform
You're building for a very sort of idiosyncratic audience who's willing to go through this pane of installing a wallet to getting tokens and all of these
So what's we one of the things we're doing it one of the things we're doing and we can get into this more later is
How do we expand the reach for our builders?
And so zk login is one particularly compelling thing
We've done here where we allow folks to privately send transactions from a web to account
The second question that we ask is what can you build?
And so they're like, of course like performance is the is gonna be one of the most important features of any consumer product
So we try to make the latency as low as possible
We make sure we can scale to handle the demand for the products of any size including games
Which is something we're a lot focused on and sweet and then you know things like you need to have the you need to have
High TVL so that there's a liquidity to get the basics on the chain
You have strong standards so that folks can integrate products into into their apps and that you have things that are working
Well throughout the stack and then the third question we ask ourselves is how hard is it to build?
You know if you can reach a large audience and you can build lots of things
But you have to chew a bunch of glass or it's just generally difficult to get started then you might pick somewhere else
We really want to make things incredibly easy
Move is a big part of that story this object-based aid model
But we'll talk about more as a big part of that story
but basically that's sort of like the what's we is about and the the why of sweet now the connection to the DM and
labor project is the myself and several and all of my co-founders as well as many of the the the engineers at
Missed in our originally got together working on this Libra project Facebook. This project started in 2018
Its goal was to build a world-scale blockchain powered payments network. And so we built a lot of technology there
Move is created as part of Libra
There's the work on the core of Libra chain, which was focused on processing regulated payments between
custodial wallets and then there's also a research team
That's actually where most of the the founding team comes from that was looking at. Okay
How do we solve problems that go beyond sort of the basics of what Libra can do?
How do we scale this across multiple? How do we scale this across multiple boxes?
How do we open up the smart contract platform and make this permissionless instead of having these?
tightly regulated payments
How do we how do we use cryptography to to reach more and more people?
And so basically what our team at missed in we were working on a lot of these challenges that went beyond what Libra could
Do and so when the Libra project saw it a little bit
At that point we decided we were like well
We've done a lot of research to have sort of the next generation version of the system
This is a good time to hop out and try to see if we can make this thing work
As a as a permissionless blockchain, you know in the real world and that's where the the design and mission of suite came from
It really sounds like move is is
Maybe one of or the secret sauce of suey
Maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a little bit of just like my high-level quick gut reaction interpretation
So maybe we can unpack that a little bit. Just what is the secret sauce of move? Why do we enjoy move so much?
Yeah, so I wouldn't say it's the secret sauce of sweet
I mean there are there are several move based platforms and I think they're gonna be more and more in time like a programming language
Is valuable the more places it's used so we really want move to become the industry standard and to become
And to be used as many places as possible and build out a broad community
I think though the our secret sauce is
Building a new blockchain from scratch around what move does really well and in particular around some of the like taking advantage of some
Performance opportunities that move gives to you
So one thing we've done with sweet that we didn't have at DM is we have a data model that's focused around objects
We think like for web 3 what's fundamental is you have these digital assets?
They have owners they can be transferred and so we've baked all those into the system as native features
not something you have to implement as part of a standard and
Then we also leverage the the knowledge of objects throughout the execution learning throughout the consent and even in a consensus
We have a consensus fast path were for certain kinds of operations that are only that are only touching objects with a single owner
We can do things much much faster than you would if you had to go through full consensus
You know on the order of sort of 300 milliseconds instead of you know a second or several seconds depending on the platform
So things like object transfers things like payments things like basic NFT minting publishing smart contracts
All of these go through the this faster path
And then we all our parallelization story also comes from leveraging objects where a transaction says here's the function. I'm calling
Here's the objects. I'm gonna pass into that function and
It's very easy then for the runtime to say hey these transactions are touching disjoint sets of objects
I can throw them to different cores and execute in parallel
I can scale this horizontally across multiple machines by
Deciding what sets of objects different machine zone and partition across across boxes instead of across cores
So I think like what definitely like move is a definitely move is a big part of what we've done
We've made several important advances on unmove
Compared to what it was a DM
But I think really our secret sauce is like what if you built a what if you built a blockchain?
That's really leveraging these advantages everywhere instead of a putting move like plugging move into something that has pieces from elsewhere that
That weren't thinking about it when they were designed
So for the non developer non tech oriented people, maybe you can explain this the significance about object orientation
How would you explain that? How do you like doing explain like I'm five on that?
Yeah, so I think what I would say is like when when you're a user you've got an app
you've got a wallet like what is it that you're going to see and
The basically like what you're gonna see is coins
What you're gonna see is NFT is what you're gonna see is maybe permissions to do something you want to have the right representation of that
That's that's natural to a user
But that's also natural to a programmer and you don't want to have these these large layers of transition of translation between those two things
You want a common vocabulary of what are these platforms doing?
And you want that to exist throughout the stack to make things as simple as possible
And so that's what objects are there
They're the lingua franca of web 3 for the programmer for the user when you open up a wallet you see in suite you see
Okay, here's all the objects that the user owns
And then if you go and dig down into the bytes that are that the validators are storing you're seeing the exact same thing
and so this makes it a lot this makes it a lot easier because the
These things like ownership these things like transferability. You don't have to re-implement them as developers
You don't have to lobby for some standard that that is allowing you to do it
These things just exist and are building blocks that that everyone can leverage and then the advantage of that is that people can build faster
It's easier to to build it's easier to build bank safely native object ownership means that like you can't have
wallet trainers that take it that trick you into taking away your objects because you can see where they're going and you never have to give
Someone a third-party smart contract a permission to take away your objects. So
This is I know this is a little bit abstract
I think really like the the proof is in when you see what people can build with this and how easy it is to just
Do new things where you see like oh this this is clearly the advantage where it's like
If you're on a different platform you go into the hood and there's actually like many layers of translation and direction between
What the user sees and what programmers are writing?
So Sam there's two things I sort of think of when I when I think of Siri and you can maybe you correct me
It's like one there's this innovation path where you're using the kind of the move of VM rather than
The aetherium virtual machine or like the Solana virtual machine and I would say like move is maybe
Kind of like the third sort of VM that is that is trying to
Reach critical mass and gain developer mindshare. So that's one access. I would sort of map sui
Another access is seems like you guys are playing in sort of the high
Like late, you know low latency to finality very quick fast blockchains
High-throughput transaction per second and kind of the the parallelized virtual machine sort of execution environment
so in that way, I would place you with sort of a
Solana maybe with what they're doing with your fire fire dancer and a chain like Eclipse
Which is you know doing the SVM only on a roll-up?
Or also like seems like monad which have not yet released but are they're doing like really high throughput parallelized
Yeah, how does this map to you?
Are these kind of the two places where you're kind of like innovating and bringing something new to the chain space or yeah?
What would you say about that framing?
So I think those are certainly two of them
I think maybe though our biggest differentiator and I touched on this now
Maybe it's a good time to go deeper is when we're asking this question of who can you reach as a builder?
And then how do we build technology directly into the chain that makes it easier to answer this question
So I think that's a good time to go deeper into the
The other folks don't have that we think is really opens up a lot of opportunities
So let me talk a little bit about what the zk login is so
What we was built with cryptographic agility in mind what that means is there's not just one kind of cryptographic key
You can use the sign transactions
We can add new kinds of cryptographic keys later and we can add
So we also has native multi-sig instead of having to write a multi-sig smart contract
Or it's the same kind of it supports the kinds of signing keys. You can hold it an iPhone
And so one new kind of signing scheme that we added to to sweet in the fall of last year is what we call
Zk login. So this is a zero knowledge proof scheme where you get
You get a JWT from a login provider. It could be Google. It could be Apple. It could be Facebook
There's a variety of things that are supported and then you can generate an ephemeral key pair and a zero knowledge proof that binds
That key pair in the JWT to a sweet address but binds them privately and then you submit that zero knowledge proof along with the transaction
to the sweet chain and you can just and
basically the effect from a user perspective is that you can send transactions directly from a web to account without having to install the
Or any of these other things and then the other feature that we have is there's something called sponsored transactions
I mean, I think lots of platforms have something like this
But you can there you don't have to pay for the gas for your own transaction
You can have a separate payer that's paying for your gas fees. And so the combination of these two features allows you to
Create experiences on sweet where you send someone a link and then you know
It just looks like a normal web app that actually they're interacting with sweet
Under the hood and just saw the the app developers paying for the gas fees as a user onboarding mechanism or you know
Doing the first hand or these sorts of things or similar with the mobile app
and so that just makes it a lot more compelling to build on sweet because you can
You can share these with anyone anyone who you doing this
There can be sweet hard utility under the hood and no one else can see it and then the important part of this is that zk
Login is a native feature. There's not some third-party service that you have to trust. There's not some there's not someone holding the keys
It's just using this is your knowledge proof mechanism plus sweet cryptographic agility to enable this feature natively
So I think the in addition to the different areas you mentioned
Yes, like we are ultra low latency. We have this consensus fast path, which is also something that's unique to suite that other folks
Don't do we do parallel execution and we're working on horizontal scalability
And then we're using move to innovate on the programming model though. Those are three of the biggest things for sure
And Sam, so why the direction of launching a layer to obviously, you know
Therian is doing a lot and kind of the or sorry the layer one for as to me
but obviously layer they're just doing a lot and kind of the layer to space and
That that has some positives and negatives, you know, one positive is obviously the ability to preserve some notion of like economic security
across all of these layer to use what
Some have said is it's also cause and increase in the short to medium term in terms of fragmentation
Of like you have state liquidity across all of these chains
But but why watch do we as a layer two rather than a layer one?
We think the value of a blockchain is directly proportional to the amount of interesting shared state
That's in the same place and so our approach has always been you know
Let's see how far we can take the scalability at the base layer
We think the best programming experience is one where you send a transaction and you can touch any state in the world hit any smart
Contract in the world from a user perspective. We think that you can't really hide it
You can try to undo this fragmentation
But fundamentally like there gonna be some things you can't hide like you're gonna have lower latency
If you're touching two pieces of state on the the same layer to whereas you're gonna have higher latency
If you have to go across one or more there are also differences in atomicity there
You know the programmers left to implement two-phase commit or figure out some way to to try to hide that fees as well
like if you're touch if you're paying gas on one on
Your users gonna notice that it's actually higher if I'm sending some transaction that hits one or two or three
Touched on this on the Twitter a little bit like I have a lot of faith that the Ethereum community can make this better
We think the optimal both user experience and developer experience in terms of speed in terms of fees in terms of simplicity in terms of security
So try to put all of the state in the same place
and so that's why we've taken this route and that's why I've taken this route and so we we think we have a
We think we have an edge in terms of the technology to make this work
And we really want to push this as far as we can
Being kind of the same right for whether you're doing like an ethereum-based approach or whether you're doing sort of a high
Throughput chain type of approach in that what I think that like allow me to maybe translate that that post
Into into the context is one thing that aetherium has tried to do is preserve censorship resistance and kind of decentralization
And like what the endgame post or idea sort of argues is that if you are a chain prioritizing sort of speed of execution
And throughput and that sort of thing then if you want to if you want to add like censorship resistance or more
Decentralization properties later then you have to kind of like add that to the stack a little bit later
And that can be like difficult is it is it still kind of a priority to have a censorship resistant?
Type of chain like with ethereum level security or you like prioritizing different things with suey
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think these things are fundamental. I think uh, I think of watching that doesn't have
censorship resistance that doesn't have sufficient decentralization is basically
You know not serving a lot of value over a conventional service. I think the key question is just
Basically, is it easier to take something like aetherium where I think folks agree
Probably that aetherium is sufficiently decentralized. I mean folks may quibble about, you know
Liquid staking providers or like concentration of hosting providers
But I think like all my many axes they would score like aetherium looks quite decentralized
Is it easier to take a system like that and try to solve?
Um to try to solve the fragmentation issues to try to evolve the protocol while also needing to be very careful about
Assets and users and apps and things that you can't break
Or is it easier to start from an architecture where you feel like or not?
Just to feel like these technical problems are also are also all solved from the start
And you can grow along these axes and decentralization
growing the validator set
Having the having a larger Nakamoto coefficient
Working on working on light clients working on sparse replay
So we have a lot of technical ideas on ways to make this easy and decentralization is something that of course takes time
Like no platform starts decentralized
You this is something you cannot over time. But basically we feel like the
The definitions on what's acceptable there are something that's a lot more subjective and like is something that will happen naturally if you
Have a platform that's important enough
Whereas solving the the techno problems is is also a valid approach because the of course like aetherium has a large community large validator set
But is something that it's going to be harder and take more time to get to
These things are indeed like very very important to us
I think we're starting from a very good place, but also like one acknowledge like aetherium has been around for quite some time
Um, it'll take a bit to get to the same level that they're at, but that's certainly what sweet wants to do
Sam I want to ask what it's been like to bootstrap an ecosystem in the year 2023 2024
and if there's any particular like sectors that you're trying to penetrate into
Or are you trying to like kind of go the tried and true path of building out a defi?
ecosystem and then an nft ecosystem and then like maybe social after that or is
Just or is there any sort of more a specific strategy of trying to build something that new?
um, just talk about what it's been like establishing the ecosystem, uh in
Yeah, I mean so certainly defi has been an early priority
I mean you you see it in the metrics and you see it in the early builders of sui and I think that's important because
It's sort of a it's almost sort of an infrastructure layer primitive where if you want an nft ecosystem
You need lots of liquidity from defi if you want stable coins if you want payments, like you need a lot of that stuff
Did I lose him or is it just me I hear you david but I I like them
Can you hear me? I can hear you. Yeah, I can't hear sam anymore. Yes, you and I
You want to refresh some charts while we wait for sam?
Well, I think his answer and i'll try and fill in the gaps is that he's gonna go
He has to go to try and true route, which is defi. I I do like that take that defi is
Infrastructure level. Um, you can't ignore defi. You have to start with defi in order to boot shop anything else. Sam
Yes. Yes. All right. Yeah, so that's that's where we kind of lost you
I think you were kind of just making the case that
Any ecosystem kind of has to start with defi before it can move into higher levels and that's when we lost you
Yeah, that's right. And then the the thing I was speaking about next is that
There there are more consumer use cases like gaming where the the development cycle is longer and you maybe need some of these other things
In place but in terms of bringing a large user
But in terms of bringing out a really large user base
Like I think even a fairly small game by game industry standards would have more users than all of crypto combined
Are something that we're working on in parallel. There's a there's some very exciting
gaming games lined up for sui
And the gaming is an industry also just tends to have a lot of good ideas on how do you use new platforms and new technology?
Uh, they're usually on the leading edge of figuring out what what you can do with it
And we think like with with sui and some of the performance and programmability aspects
We enable the games are going to be some of the folks that are best taken that will best take advantage of that
So we we also focus of course on areas like payments
But these things are maybe in the middle of very consumer-y stuff like games and very in-phrase stuff like b5
And so what are you really um, how are you bootstrapping this?
I know we have of course the uh, the the conference in uh in paris that we talked about at the very beginning
We'll talk about at the very end. Uh, there's a hackathon involved with that like and what kind of areas are you trying to focus on with that?
Yeah, so we're we are going to do a global we are going to do a global hackathon
That's happening a little bit after the paris conference and they're like there
There are going to be a variety of tracks in this hackathon
So in that we look both at more producty areas like the conventional stuff like define fts
but also in like using leveraging particular suite features like
You know the best usage of zk login like maybe a most compelling way that
You can leverage a new move feature like dynamic fields or like programmable transaction blocks
We sort of try to set it up so that there's something for everyone for
The more producty builders for the more infrared focused folks and maybe even
People who are working on tooling and things throughout the developer stack all of this stuff is important for creating a compelling offering
Sam for um, like user the users out there who want to try something out on the sui chain
Is there a place you direct them?
Is there any kind of like, you know apps that you think are uh, like emerging and interesting that they should start with?
Like how does somebody in general get started with sui?
Yes, I think you know, I have been talking a lot about zk login how it allows you to go beyond the wallet
But at this phase, I think like it's definitely best to start from a popular suite wallet like try a tryout suite
For example a tryout nightly a tryout surf and then these wallets basically have a lot of ways for you to
The stuff that's happening on suite inside the wallet like they'll have made a they'll have native integration with dexes and central
Books for you to do swaps they'll have links for you to try out
different out of tea collections that are out there some of them have
little mini app stores or show you which apps are trending in terms of
A lot of transactions that are hitting that package or that other folks have recommended
So I think just thinking of those as your window into to what's interesting on suite and what are good starting points
It's a really good way to go. I mean, there are also community lists. I think jumping into
Sween army writers our community builder telegram group into the discord into the forums and seeing what folks are excited about is
another good way to get started, but I think like for me I prefer to learn by
Experimenting and playing with what's out there
And so just starting from the the tools and letting my curiosity guide me is what I would recommend
And and sam correct me, but you were one of the originators of the the move language. Is that correct in the movie? Yeah
Yeah, that's right. So i'm the creator of the move programming language. I started working on early 2018
Worked on a lot of the early design and implementation worked on building out the the move team
With the move to of course, like a language is not a one person creation is different than
building a design in the language
It's not just one person project
There have been many many contributors to language over the years and continue to be
But I do have the distinction of being the original creator
I remember one of the the exciting things about
Sort of the libra dm project as it was maybe called powered by powered by move in 2018 was this prospect of
Bringing on kind of like the world's developers basically
Solidity at the time and even now today it was such a niche
That we really didn't have the ability to capture the mind share of all of the existing web2 developers out there
you know from silicon valleys and all of these app companies and
Then um, like move was the promise of this language was a way to make that easier
For web2 developers to start developing in crypto
Do you think that that promise remains true with suey or at least that narrative that idea from 2018 and 2019?
Is that now manifest in suey? Are we going to start onboarding?
More web2 developers as a result of um, like move and making that more accessible
Yeah, absolutely. I mean my conviction on this point remains very strong
And I think the key feature here is security where I think the difficulty of writing a correct
Solidity or even smart contract is similar to like being a low level systems or kernel hacker
But it's the sort of thing where there's maybe only so many people in the world who can do this very well
And the that number is unlikely to grow because it's just uh, it's just so so hard to get things right
And there are so many things that can go wrong
And the other thing is of course that the stakes of getting things wrong is extremely high. Uh, your money can be stolen
You can lose assets, you know, you can cause all sorts of problems
whereas with move the really like the primary design goal was looking at solidity in the avian and saying like
How can we take a lot of things that have led to high profile hacks and how can we just make these go away?
How can we make it impossible to create these kind of problems?
And then we do that whenever we can and then in cases where we can't make it impossible
We at least try to make it difficult via having solid libraries having good supporting tooling for testing
for verification for fuzzing
Uh trying to have great education good compiler error messages winters warnings and all that sort of thing
So we really think like that's the or at least to me. I think what's holding back
One of the things holding back the growth of smart contract development more broadly is that
It's just so so hard to write safe code and so people are discouraged from getting into it
And so I think like having something that's safe by default can make a big difference there
and then the other thing is the the familiarity and productivity like
The even solidity is very sort of like low level and has this
Odd programming model like, you know
Everything is sort of like a mapping or a hash table as I was talking earlier with the sort of object
There's a big gap between what you want to show to the user and the code that you have to write
And in move we try to make it especially with move and objects
We try to make it look much more like a conventional programming language or like hey, here's my objects
I'm a javascript developer. I'm you know, i'm a restaurant or whatever. These are familiar concepts
I'm used to these things and then basically
Wear the native blockchain on stuff stuff on top and make it safe
So that's you know transfers and ownership and in our object centric data model. So I think we're
We're very early in terms of this vision actually being realized but in terms of the design and like my conviction
Like this is what we need. I think that that part remains very strong
It's not always it wasn't 2018 language development is a very long-term thing. Uh, you can it's not a uh,
Not something you should get into if you want to get it done in a couple of years
I think like decades is the sort of right time frame for something to really take over and become the standard
Well sam, thank you so much for stopping by and telling uh, david and I and the bankless nation about this in this twitter spacious
Spaces, we we greatly appreciate it. So it's suey base camp. This is the first
Uh suey ecosystem conference. It's going to be held in paris
April 10th april 11th registrations are open. That's suey.io slash base camp
Uh sam anything else you want to say in closing?
No, I think we covered a lot of things that are mentioned about base camp or melt suite
Thanks so much for having me and for the great questions. I really appreciate it. Amazing. Thanks a lot. I beg the station
Take care. Thanks. Thanks. Brandon. David