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SUI Deepdive w/ Adeniyi CoFounder of Mysten Labs
Recorded: Aug. 27, 2025 Duration: 1:00:12Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you. All right, GM, everybody, give me just a minute. We're going to get Adani up here,
and we're going to go ahead and wait just a minute
to be able to give some people time to be able to get on the stage.
Adani, I sent you a co-host invite.
You don't have to accept it.
You can go ahead and accept it as a speaker if you'd prefer.
But that should be out there.
Here, I'll just cancel the co-host and just add a speaker.
All right, I think I got you up here.
Can you hear me?
Yes, sir.
Perfect. Okay, cool.
Amazing. Well, first and foremost, appreciate you joining.
Whenever Jack brought this up to me, it was a no-brainer.
I wanted to sit down and talk with you for a while.
So, you know, fortunate to have the opportunity the other day, but I think there are a
lot of people in my audience that aren't as familiar with the SWE story and your story as
they should be. So really excited to dive into that a bit today. And then here at the end,
also want to make sure to have some time for a panel to be able to bring some people up,
have a little bit of a round table discussion as well, as long as you're okay with that.
100% look forward to it, man.
Amazing.
All right, man.
Well, first and foremost, you know, for those of you who are not aware, Adany, which if you're not been under a rock, Adany is the co of Missed and Labs, or co-founder of SWE and
CPO of Missed and Labs. He has a really extensive history within the space, way more extensive
than what I was aware of, and honestly, really thought that would be an interesting place to
start. When I heard your story starting back in 2012,
just think it's a really cool intro
into how you got plugged into the space.
So if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit about that,
a little bit about yourself.
Sure thing.
Yeah, my journey with crypto started in 2012, actually.
I got involved in Bitcoin accidentally.
So I was working at an investment bank.
My role was in portfolio management and even margin risk,
and then eventually working on the trading desk to do processing of credit derivatives,
credit default swaps, and all those kind of things.
So finance was like my space.
And I do remember a colleague reading a white paper called Bitcoin,
which is, I never even knew what that was, right?
Like the word Bitcoin, the sound kind of like a game.
But I started reading the paper because I thought it was an interesting name.
And initially I thought it was a bit of a scam because I thought, okay, well, this is someone's opportunity to build something of value or perceived value and then get everybody involved and interested by writing a very sexy paper and then pull the rug on everybody in the future.
But the more I dug into it, in fact, one of the things I started looking at was actually the code base.
As people know, the Bitcoin code base is actually a mess.
It's very hard to read and very hard to reason about, but it got the job done.
It started to really make me think about what we had built internally at banks.
Namely, we had built so much heft.
We hired so many people, and we had so many systems that didn't really talk to each other.
And just to try and get the same view of the world,
it involved a lot of waste.
So having a unified view of the balance of people
or the history of transactions
was actually a big problem internally and externally
for banks and corporations.
So I felt, look, if this technology does what it says,
then I feel there's a future where it could replace traditional payment systems.
With that in mind, I actually started to get my toes wet by buying Bitcoin.
I remember I was buying BTC. I can't remember the price,
but I bought some Bitcoin at 10 bucks, something like that, even less.
Right. And eventually I started mining BTC.
And it was then that I actually got hooked, right?
I started to understand.
Once you start to really get involved in something,
it starts to make more sense.
For me, the idea that I can run my own computer
and I can participate in the validation of this network
was super interesting to me,
and I bought more and more machines
to the point where I had machines in our spare room in the house and it kept running hot.
And we couldn't have my wife's mom stay over because the bedroom was all for Bitcoin.
That was not cool.
My wife was not happy with that.
Eventually, I started renting our data centers and I put up a website because other people were asking for help to get started.
So I put up a website and started selling access to Bitcoin mining hardware.
And I never knew it was going to be something large, but it grew quite big
to the point where the company I had at some point was about between 13% to 15%
of the Bitcoin hash rate.
But lo and behold, I found out that there are a bunch of people mining
with a lot cheaper power than I did.
So I decided to pivot out of the Bitcoin mining business.
It was probably a bit of a mistake in hindsight.
But I got involved in other businesses, namely I had a company that's still around today
that uses distributed ledger technology for effectively doing repo trades and Wall Street
that already is running today and still here today.
And then I went over to Oracle and VMware to help launch blockchain projects for both of them.
So Oracle has a blockchain program that's been running for over seven years now
and then similar with VMware, but we left that to go and pursue opportunities at Facebook.
So Facebook was the most recent role I had before co-founder Miston Labs
with my friends Sam,
George, Costas and Evan.
So we were the team behind all the science at Libra.
So we were building the Libra blockchain.
We invented the cryptography that was required to run Libra.
We invented the consensus algorithms.
In fact, Facebook had acquired George Denizas' company to continue the work of actually helping build the consensus algorithms for Project Libra.
I was leading a lot of the infrastructure work and including the research team.
I led the research team on all the product work we're doing.
One of my biggest charters was trying to figure out primitives to effectively allow people to send money across the world without a wallet and without any internet connection.
It's interesting we've been able to achieve that outside of Facebook.
But ultimately, the background of our founders is very diverse.
You know, Sam, one of the youngest principal engineers at Facebook, is the inventor of the Move Programming Language.
Costas ran most of the crypto platforms including he led crypto for
whatsapp as well including libra um evan i always make the comparison that the work that evan did
if he didn't do his work at that he achieved at apple we will not have llvm and all the stuff that
makes our phone work today so he actually won an acm computer science Award for developing LLVM. He's an amazing brain and the CEO of Miston Labs and one of our co-founders.
And then you have George, who invents all the amazing, crazy stuff you see, namely,
like if you look at Walrus, you look at the consensus algorithms we have,
a lot of that is Walrus and the research team.
So it's a very diverse group.
And I've, of course, had the background in crypto for a very long time
and build a number of businesses in this space as well.
So our work at Meta, in the Mistin Labs of the company,
you'd find people who've worked at Google building search,
building the Spanner database at Google,
building the infrastructure at Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, you name it.
So we are very, very accustomed team to building things for the billions.
And the reason we decided to leave Meta together was because we kind of felt this project needed to be extended outside the walls of Facebook.
And we had done what we had done internally at Facebook, and we felt, okay, it's now time to, you know, if we can't launch it internally, let's go out of meta and give it a try and actually
build what we believe the world is going to be. And we felt like the biggest missing piece
was this opportunity to build this translation layer for applications on the internet that
doesn't exist, right? So inherently, we see the internet as this big spaghetti mess that
doesn't connect well. Apps don't connect to each other very, very well.
And we felt, look, if we can leave Facebook and solve that problem outside of Facebook,
we can solve a real multi-trillion dollar problem.
And yeah, and that's our backstory.
It is a crack team of almost 180 people now.
We took some of the brightest minds that are working on Libra,
some of the brightest minds that were working at Google and other companies, and we're building
one of the most advanced research and development teams in the world and focused solely on solving
infrastructure-related problems on the internet. I appreciate that. That was perfect. Covered a lot that I wanted to dive into. And, you know,
one of the things that you brought up as you were discussing on there that I want to get into a
little bit later, but it just made me think, man, yesterday, whenever we were watching Costas speak,
I have never been more bullish on Sweet than just watching the wheels churn in his head as he was
discussing a bunch of the innovations that are
coming and i wanted to get to those innovations a little bit later but man like how does it feel
working with a team that just has that type of energy every day you know it's crazy right when
we were at facebook um one of the crazy things is we had a backlog of things we wanted to work on
like there's a roller deck of amazing things.
We're working on Libra version 2,
which ends up being fast pay
then turning into Mississippi and what we have today.
We're working on amazing payment channel technology,
ZK tunnels.
We're working on payment schemes
that doesn't require internet transmission.
We're working on like, you know,
amazing ZK tech that we just didn't have the ability to move
as fast as we wanted internally. So we just had a lot of this stuff in the back burner.
And now we're outside. We can do what we want and move as fast as we can. So we have a nonstop
appetite for innovation because we believe that to solve the problems the internet has,
you don't solve it with just one solution.
You need a myriad of solutions for developers.
So if anything, it never gets boring at Mistin, right?
It's never boring.
There's always an element of innovation we're doing.
There's always something crazy.
For example, we'll talk about how you can use your slush wallet to collect robots and start controlling them directly.
They're amazing, amazing things that we're working on because we feel these are the pieces
of glue that you need for the internet to take it to the next level.
So yeah, like Costas was giving amazing demonstrations and leaking some alpha as to
some of the areas of research that we're doing in the SWE ecosystem.
And some of these things will be coming out very, very soon.
Some of them are, these are never like 10-year projects.
We're not interested in, you know, five-year, 10-year roadmaps.
We're always interested in what we can launch in the near term.
So we're talking between two months all the way to like 12 months out.
And you can see that when we launched SWE, we talked about releasing an updated consensus algorithm.
When others are trying to launch algorithms in like five years and 10-year roadmaps,
we've already launched three upgrades to SWE, making it faster and more durable.
Yeah, you know, I want a few of the stats
that we talked about yesterday.
Like first off, one of the things I think
when everybody thinks about SWE, it's just speed, right?
300,000 TPS, 99.99% uptime, 400 millisecond average finality with 25 millisecond optimistic confirmation.
At what point did you realize whenever you were building SWEYOUT that you wanted to make just the speed of it such a priority going into it?
And how did you get to where you are today?
Sure.
So if people remember, when Libra was announced,
it was actually a consortium, right?
So the point of Libra was, hey,
we don't think we can get away with something fully decentralized.
Let's start with a controlled consortium,
and over time we'll have a plan to decentralize.
So when we built that, like Libra version 1
was not this amazing, scalable
system. It was going to do maybe 1,000 transactions per second if we push it, but it gave this
element of, hey, it's run by a discrete group of individuals who all make their independent
decisions. So our goal for scale was not there. But we knew from a Facebook perspective to power
billions of users, we needed to level up. So we're working on Libra version 2.
And our idea on Libra v2 was everyone has direct access to the network, right?
You don't have to go through an intermediary, through a wallet,
through some RPC endpoint that is owned by a third party.
You can directly connect to the network and interact with it.
So that was our vision for the world.
And, you know, I'd always say you want to have as low latency as possible.
The lower the latency you have for a network,
the broader the use cases that can be built on top of the platform.
So if you're at one minute latency,
there are only a certain class of apps you can build.
If you're at 10 seconds or 13 seconds
end-to-end finality, which is what you have Solana.
Solana is about 13 seconds end-to-end finality, which is what you have Solana. Solana is about 13 seconds end-to-end finality.
There's only a certain class of applications you can build
before having to build centralized services
to interact with a chain or give you this guise of instant finality.
When you're at literally 65 millisecond block time
and 390 millisecond finality, which SWE is today,
you have an even broader
set of use cases you can build on Suite.
And it's only going to get faster with time.
So the reason why latency matters to us is because we're trying to build something that
would power the entire internet, that every app in the world that uses the internet that
wants to communicate with each other is ultimately going to leverage.
And for that, you need Facebook scale.
Facebook builds stuff that powers billions of users on a day-to-day basis.
And we throw hardware at the problem.
So the more hardware we throw at a problem in Facebook or at Google for search and whatever,
the more searches people can do, the more queries you can do, the more transactions you can process.
It's the same mantra with SWE.
We've proven that if you 10x the amount of hardware with SWE,
so right now we're at 300,000, you throw 10 times the hardware at SWE,
you get 3 million transactions per second and zero increase in latency.
That is what scalability means.
Scalability isn't that you say, hey, I can do 1,000 transactions per second
and you leave it there, right?
That's actually a cap.
And then if you have a cap, you don't have scalability.
There's a finite amount of transactions you can process.
Scalability means that when demand increases, so can you increase the supply.
So with SWE, it's the same way Google Infra works, Facebook Infra works, but fully decentralized,
where you throw more hardware, the network gets faster.
So it's by design that we build scalable systems because it means that everybody can have access
everybody can have access to a global network for processing transactions.
to a global network for processing transactions.
So just to clarify for a lot of the people in here,
the design of SWE moving forward will purely remain monolithic.
That is the move forward because of the scalability
and the way it's designed, correct?
Yeah, we don't believe in this fragmented approach.
We think monolith is actually the way to get the best performance ever.
And the network will grow more validators.
The validators will get more powerful because it can throw more hardware and solve it.
If you have a slow validator, you get less fees because you can't process as fast as everybody else.
But ultimately, the network is built in such a way that incentivizes people to scale.
You want to have a network that can do millions, way that incentivizes people to scale, right?
Like you want to have a network that can do millions, if not billions of transactions per second, ultimately.
So a monolith design allows us to take advantage of, you know, the object model that we've built in SWE that effectively allows us to be very, very parallel. But on top of that, we believe the value of blockchain is directly related to the amount of interesting state that you can access at the same time. So we don't believe in like
sharding or channels or, you know, I don't remember what the other teams call it, like these
subnets and whatever. We think those are all bad designs because it's not the way you actually build a system for composability.
The whole point of a blockchain is composability.
The Solana folks say it rightly.
You want to have a global state machine, and they're absolutely right.
If you start to fragment state into different systems
and you make it impossible to get atomicity,
you've really just built a new form of database.
We don't believe in that idea. We believe that you want to have a global state machine, and that's what SWE is. impossible to get atomicity, right? You've really just built a new form of database, right?
So we don't believe in that idea.
We believe that you want to have a global state machine,
and that's what SWE is.
It's monolithic by design, but also it scales unlike traditional monolithic systems
because while sharding is normally something
that is exposed to developers
in traditional systems that try to get scale,
for example, AVAX does subnets and whatever,
there is no way for a developer to actually program and get the atomicity they want.VAX does, you know, subnets and whatever. There is no
way for a developer to actually program and get the atomicity they want. You actually
get slower and slower, ultimately. With SWE, sharding is something done in the back end
of a system. So it's validating, it's managed in a software, so developers never have to
think about, oh, where is my state? Is it in Validator Machine 1, Validator Machine 2?
It's all in the back end. It's actually the same way you would build on GCP on Amazon, right?
Like you try to remove these primitives from developers
so that they can build more scalable systems.
Once you start to make the barrier of adoption
or the barrier of entry higher for developers,
that's when you get bugs.
That's when you get mistakes.
And that's why you start to get slower systems.
SWE doesn't subscribe to those ideas.
SWE doesn't subscribe to those ideas.
Okay, so, you know,
getting back to SWE as a coordination layer
is something that you brought up quite a bit.
And I think that's one of the advantages
of the monolithic design
is just the concentrated liquidity.
So what is your real vision going forward
of what you want SWE to become?
Sure. So when you have Bitcoin being the future of money, then you have Ethereum basically stating itself as the future of financial markets.
Although I don't think it's possible given the speed, and even layer twos don't help you there.
you there. We believe Sweden is the future of the internet. Our problem scope is broad
We believe SWE is the future of the internet.
because it applies to both money, it applies to both financial markets, it applies to how
applications communicate with one another. At Facebook, I always explain that companies
do not decide overnight to be evil, right? They don't decide overnight that they want
to download all your data and keep it to themselves. But there are certain rules and because of
the way systems are designed and the way the internet works, they have to start to build these silos because it's
the best way to become efficient and keep data safe and private, although they fail
at certain times. That foundational flaw that the internet has is what prevents us from
having apps that can interact with each other where you own your own data and take it to
wherever you want and still have the trust that you want it to have. So the problem we're solving
is fundamentally there needs to be a way that
application developers can coordinate what you do online and give you full control
while doing it. SWE is exactly that. So with SWE
if SWE is successful and the SWE stack is successful
applications no longer need to own your data.
You can build every kind of service that exists today,
namely Airbnb, the Ubers of the world.
You can build the new forms of databases that exist today.
You can build new forms of search.
You can build AI automation systems.
All those systems no longer need to be custodian
or what we
call judge jury executioner of your data. You will become an owner of your data
and you decide to take it to wherever you want and extract value out of it
yourself. In fact, one of the projects I was working on at Facebook before we
left was exactly that. The idea that no longer does Facebook own your data
directly, but you become an owner of your data
and ultimately can take your data wherever you want
and lease it to people, right?
That idea actually is how the internet should work, right?
Where, because the internet was good at moving data,
it was not good at moving data and value together, right?
So building a system that takes care of that
was actually the goal.
And leaving Meta to make that vision reality
is what we did.
So in a future that we're imagining,
users own their own data, users control their own data,
they decide to unencrypt data at will.
They do not have it owned by central entities anymore.
And in fact, the portability of users
across different app ecosystems become key.
So your credit system that you employ today
allows you to go anywhere you want.
You no longer need to share passport information with an app to prove that you're 16 years old or above 16 years old, sorry.
So the data that people own becomes their Bitcoin, becomes their own personal information,
and they get full custody over that data and take it wherever they want.
So that is a world we're building.
That for us, when we valued it, is in the hundreds of trillions in terms of potential value.
And trying to just be a layer one doesn't cut it.
Layer ones alone don't solve the problem.
You need a full stack.
You need the ability to transact value.
You need the ability to coordinate what people do
with identity systems.
You need the ability to store petabytes,
if not gigabytes of data for users.
You need the ability for people to encrypt data.
You need the ability to allow LLMs to interact directly
with applications on behalf of users
without exposing user information.
So all that is the kind of stack.
So imagine we're rebuilding the Amazon or the Google stack,
but more for a world where users are at the center of it
rather than corporations being the owners
of these infrastructures?
I think it's really, you know, the overall architecture of it, the vision.
Again, man, whenever I was listening to everything being discussed yesterday,
really bullish on it, the coordination layer, the stack that's there right now,
the team that's behind everything.
There's just so much happening that it is, you know, it's a lot to take in for somebody that's new, but it's also, you know, attracting a lot of other builders as well.
One of the things that was brought up yesterday was SWE over the past 24 months has had both the, let's see,
well, first off, I mean, even recently, 24 months, the fastest dev growth, but in the past month
alone, 219% jump in monthly active devs, 125% bump in commits. What do you think it is that's really attracting all of these devs,
and how can you continue to do it?
Yeah, it's a good question.
So SWE is one of the youngest chains out live,
and it's just over two years old.
And in the last one, four months,
it's seen the highest growth of any layer one in terms of users,
in terms of developers.
And last 12 months alone,
only SWE and Solana have actually seen dev growth,
whereas other ecosystems have seen a reduction in dev growth.
So we're actually capturing market share from other ecosystems.
And I always make the point that, you know, you want to,
when we build developer platforms at, you know,
traditional big tech firms,
we're not building for 20,000, 20, 30,000 people
who are in Facebook.
Like Facebook alone has more devs as a company
than the whole of crypto.
We're building for the 9 to 12 million JavaScript devs,
the traditional developers who are in Web2.
And for that, you need better tooling,
you need better docs,
you need better explainers for how people can onboard.
And what we're finding, in fact,
the reports coming from developers themselves,
that onboarding to SWE and building in SWE
is a 10x dev improvement than building on Sol, for example.
So people are learning SWE very, very quickly
or learning to write and move very, very quickly
compared to writing an EVM or writing something in Solidity
or writing something in a Sol ecosystem.
So we don't think chewing glass is a good thing
from a dev perspective.
We think you certainly want to have
an easy path to success for developers.
And what we're typically finding is
developers are learning move in about four days,
which is great.
And once they start writing a move,
they don't want to go back, right?
Like you can't unsee what you've seen.
You know what I mean?
And that's really our win.
Like we spent 18 months, rather than launching the
chain, on really just improving the developer experience. And it's always going to get better.
There's always chances to improve it. But our focus has always been DevEx. And our DevEx
on Suite is by far the best in crypto. And it's only going to get better, especially
with what we just announced today, partnerships with Alibaba Cloud, who have their own AI
agents that allow you to write code in SWE directly using AI.
So things like that are going to be areas we invest more in,
investing in AI dev tooling, investing in code platforms,
investing also in the ability to have a library on-chain for all the code that you deploy.
We have a lot coming out soon, especially in MCP side of things for the chain.
So we think SWE will have fully MCP-compliant smart contracts
all across the board as well in long form.
So we're trying to onboard millions of developers,
not thousands of developers, right?
So our job is, the bar is a lot higher for us,
which means we've got to do a lot better work
in making sure we have the best dev experience.
Because Web2 devs do not want to have to go through docs
for weeks on end and figure out
all the infrastructure issues.
They want something that just works,
and that's really our focus.
So how do you feel about the comparisons
that SWE gets to Solana, right?
I feel like it's a very,
the very basic bucketed opinion is comparing monolithics to modulars.
And when you look at monolithic chains, Solana is the number one right now, right?
As far as market cap is concerned.
Um, so what is we doing differently?
How, how is the approach?
Um, you know, how are you guys differentiating yourselves with the approach, and how do you feel about those comparisons?
Yeah, I mean, for first and foremost, it's flattering to be compared to a chain like Slana and ETH, especially given how young we are.
One thing I'll say is, for us, that's not our focus, right?
Like, for us, the L1 space is a couple of hundred billion dollars in value to a
large extent. Our view, if we succeed with what we're trying to do, we're trying to get into
hundreds of trillions in value in terms of actual ability to capture markets. Like we can take
market share from cloud services like Cloudflare. We can take market share from Google Cloud
Services. We can take market share from marketplaces that exist on the internet today.
services. We can take market share from marketplaces that exist on the internet today.
Like we are trying to take, our ultimate goal is to take market share from centralized ways
of doing things. That is a much larger targeted addressable market. And the kind of developers
who come to that space actually build multi-billion dollar, if not trillion dollar companies.
So we want to be more like an NVIDIA or in terms of scale than just trying to compare with layer 1s.
That's not to say layer 1s aren't important.
They're an important critical piece of infrastructure,
but SWE does a lot more than L1 does.
It's already lower latency than Sol,
greater throughput than Sol.
We've already beaten that,
but that's not what we care about.
Our goal is really onboarding the next billion users onto SWE.
For example, one of the things SWE can do that
other changes can't, SWE itself can validate that you have an online session with Facebook today
without communicating with Facebook. We have some ZK technology on the chain today that effectively
lets you authenticate that you're a Facebook user and start trading with your Facebook account
without Facebook knowing anything about your account or your transaction history.
You could do that also with Google. You could do that with other Web2 identities on SWE.
So it is the infrastructure that the web will run on.
It can interact with the internet.
It can interact with Websockets.
It can interact with traditional services you use on the web today, but in a way that
is decentralized and also gives power more in the hands of developers and users.
So our targetable addressable market is a lot bigger than just the L1 space.
So as I said, SWE for us is the future of the internet.
It's going to be like we always make this a comparison like for us, right?
Like ultimately we want SWE to be a utility, not a commodity.
And what that means is that in the future, everything you do online,
in some essence in the future, will be powered by SWE, whether it's making payments, whether it's doing your KYC on an exchange, whether it's transferring your video files onto a storage cloud and then deciding to unlock the unencrypted upon passing away or passing on to friends.
unencrypted upon passing away or passing on to friends.
All the things that you want to do around coordinating your data or coordinating assets
of value, you need a coordination layer for that.
And SWE will be that coordination layer the internet needs.
That is of intrinsic value more than just looking at the Web3 space that exists today.
You know, one of the things that you brought up that I just thought about really, it made
me think. So I feel like for at least the last five years, maybe the last 10 years, heard that data is the new gold.
And you have discussed how a huge initiative in Suite is giving users control and power over their own data.
And a lot of these ZK initiatives that you have empower that where, you know, you've got these logins, like you said, where the user doesn't necessarily have to give them.
Because right now, you know, Web2 apps, whenever you sign up and you integrate using Facebook and using whatever else, you don't know what you're accepting.
Most likely you're giving a lot of your data, even if it's read only over to these companies.
And that's what these free apps
are then going back and selling. And that's the product. You are the product.
So I'm curious. The user's the product. Yeah. So the user's the product, right? And like the user
doesn't really realize that going into it or they just don't really care. So my question is,
one, empowering the user is one of the things like it's cool that the user does get that power back.
But how do you really empower them to leverage that opportunity that they now have that they don't have to necessarily, you know, unknowingly sell their data?
They have control over it.
You know, what are the opportunities that the user really gets outside of the pure
privacy? Do you see any other vision? And not just that, but it's like the applications themselves,
where is that missing revenue stream from being able to sell that data? Where does that come back
to play? Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I'll bring back the comparison for Facebook,
right? Like people have this idea that Facebook just wants to download all your data, keep all your data, right?
In fact, Facebook would much prefer to be a marketplace where it has got a score
of interesting people and it can pair that with interesting ads that people
want to see.
If it can do that without knowing too much information about you,
they'll prefer it because the regulation on them will be a lot lower, right?
Being a marketplace rather than trying to be this arbiter of data on behalf of users.
But the problem is the internet doesn't work that way.
The technical infrastructure required where application developers can build apps,
where they can give users control of data,
and only allow them to expose whatever they want willingly in a way that's intuitive,
just does not exist.
So what SWE is, is exactly that.
SWE, we're going to be releasing Walrus update next month
that has a technology called seal management service that sits on top of Walrus. What that
means that you could do with it is you can finally store encrypted data on Walrus directly without
having to use centralized secret management services,
you can actually say, hey, I'm going to store my data on Google, right?
But I'm going to encrypt it using a decentralized infrastructure.
So even Google doesn't have a means of unencrypting my data in the future.
Only I can.
And you can do that with eventually quantum secure algorithms as well.
And what that means now is developers can always put data
in the hands of users for the first time and allow them to only share the information that matters.
So you can build new forms of Facebook now. You can build TikTok on SWE. You can build
Tinder on SWE. You can build OnlyFans on SWE if you wanted and get access using payment
systems. Like for example, you can only watch this video if you've paid $50 a month, right?
You can only watch this video if you're in the 100 club of the best users in the platform. You can start to gate data using
amazing dynamic entitlement systems. You can even say this data is an embargo, right? And
it's some report that is very sensitive, that I only want the public to have access to it upon me not reporting back every five hours, right?
Let's say you've got this, you want to detonate an amazing news article to people,
but you only want to do it ensuring that your safety is there.
It happens, right?
And upon you not responding, right, the news article can go out publicly
to everyone at the same time using something called time capsules that SWE has, right, on Walrus.
So it means now you can gate data and access to data with rules that you define, not the
platform defines, but that you define.
And that data can be stored anywhere but powered by SWE.
So this element of, like, coordinating what you do becomes even more important because
developers now can give you the control that you need in regards to the data that you have, which is very, very critical.
I appreciate you sharing that, man.
It's exciting stuff to think about, just a bunch of the applications that a lot of this
unlocks.
Hello?
Wait, can you hear me?
Hello?
Can anybody hear me?
One second. Can you hear me one second
can you hear me
thumbs up if you can hear me
I don't know if it's the host or me
thumbs up if you can hear me
wait can you guys hear me
but I can't hear the host
should I
join again
actually can you
thumbs up if you can hear the host?
So if I know if it's my problem or not.
Okay, I'm going to leave and I'm going to join again.
My bad.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Yeah, it's one of the issues of Twitter space is...
It'd be nice if Swee had a perfect fix for it.
Yeah, I heard him cut out for just a minute a little bit ago
and then was wondering if any issue was up.
For those of you guys that are up here,
we're about to start just a roundtable discussion.
Can you hear me?
Yeah, I can hear you.
Can you hear me now?
We need someone to rebuild X on suite.
Seriously.
That's exactly what I was saying.
So, um, because I like, I can't count the number of times that I've had this happen.
Um, yeah.
Yesterday we, then we, we showed that we, you basically got a version of Zoom that can run on SWE now,
where you can create your own Zoom channels
and start discussing with people
not paying the monthly fee that Zoom may charge.
And you can build Telegram directly on SWE now as well.
So all these amazing things we've been talking about before, right,
where communication systems, where, you know, even privacy,
we explain to people, like,
just don't use backup on traditional messaging services.
That's probably the biggest attack vector.
If you're using WhatsApp, Signal, any of these services,
don't use a backup feature.
It's just not as safe,
especially when you're looking at about 4-pin to unencrypt data.
So with Walrus and SWE,
you now can be able to do your own backups
and never have to worry about centralized services
accessing your data again.
So you can rebuild the traditional stuff
that exists on Web3 finally with a three stack,
which is going to be exciting.
Yeah, there are a lot of projects out there
that are exciting.
I really think, though,
that this is probably a good time
to be able to shift it over
to a little bit more of the round table because I want to give some of the people that are up here an opportunity to be able to discuss different things that are either being built or other questions that they might have.
I know there are a lot of other speakers that are up here that are here at this event right now.
So I want to go ahead.
I'll kick off by, you know, if you guys want to speak feel free to put
your hand up wanted to give shiv the first opportunity because he was gracious enough to
help me co-host and um so he could also help out with the mic and a little bit of that uh
coordination between as well but appreciate you coming up here man how's it going
i'm doing well i'm doing
well it's a pleasure being uh up on uh on stage obviously listening in it's uh a lot of time i'm
the one rambling on but you know sitting back and listening in is always definitely a pleasure
especially when you know listening to incredible bright minds you know talking about an ecosystem
you can't um not talk about its culture and community
uh and especially especially to like you know different chains everyone has
like a culture and community that comes and resonates with it and and it's what i've realized
with sui um it's pretty expansive right like there's different aspects of the ecosystem that
anyone can come and enjoy which i really like but i kind of love to
like from here from your side you know how has it been kind of curating this culture and community
over the past couple years uh and obviously it's led to what we have today yeah i would always say
an ecosystem is always kind of like a reflection of the founders or at least the initial creators of our project.
So I'm glad to see that that has taken shape.
We made deliberate steps when we first launched SWE
to be actually very, very intentional
about how we create SWE community.
And that means we know that there is this propensity in crypto
for people to jump from one ecosystem to another,
not really have affiliation, not really care about the tech.
So we're very, very intentional and being very tech forward when we first started.
So we wanted people to be unashamedly addicted to the technology that we're building because we wanted to solve real world problems and not really care too much about the, you know, the farmers.
And now that has seemed to have paid off.
Like our ecosystem has grown significantly.
Basecamp we had recently,
which is our annual DevCon that we have for SWE,
had probably the record amount of attendees we've ever seen.
And we're probably going to do a much bigger one next year.
We are partnering with Token this year
to be on the first floor of Merriman Bay Sands in Token.
So we're getting a lot of notoriety.
People are coming to our events.
Community is getting bigger and bigger.
We're seeing ecosystem projects launch and getting good usage and getting good adoption
metrics across the board.
I think SWE has over one and a half million daily active wallets in the ecosystem, which
is one of the top ones as well right now.
So it's showing through not just in the voices that you're hearing in the ecosystem, which is one of the top ones as well right now. So it's showing through not just in the voices that you're hearing in the ecosystem,
but certainly in the usage and adoption side, which also matters, right?
It's great to have great metrics.
It's also great to have good hype around what's going on because it shows an interest,
an investor interest as well.
But another thing as well is, you know, we have Wall Street.
We have a lot of people and institutions wanting to have conversations more with the community, understand a bit
more about the culture, see how they can play a part. They see that we're a bunch of serious
builders. Like, we don't build small, we build big. And we always dream big as well. But
I would say that same idea rubs off like protocols such as SuiLend. Look at SuiLend, right? The
amazing things they've built since they've launched.
They've got the ability for you to lend
at the same time of providing LP positions
at the same time.
I've not seen many people do that.
They've built a lending protocol
that has grown to be one of the top in the ecosystem
in a very short space of time.
You've got Cedars, whose trading volume
exceeds many centralized exchanges
on a day-to-day basis.
You have DeepBook, that is providing liquidity across the entire SWE ecosystem.
And these services are getting usage across the board.
And we're partnering with some of the top exchanges who are leveraging SWE infrastructure directly as well now.
So I'm very happy about what we've done.
And I think we can only grow from here.
We're always looking for feedback on what we can do better.
Appreciate you asking, Shiv.
And I saw that Anaio had their hand up as well.
Actually, Shiv, if you want to follow up on that question, I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
No, no, no, no. I was going to pass it to the other people on stage as well.
All right. Amazing. Anaya, welcome up.
Hi, Kalio. Hi, Adini.
I always love me a midnight sweet space.
It's currently 2 a.m. here in Nigeria.
And I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing Adini speak.
I think I met him in the base camp in Dubai.
A very, very amazing, amazing individual.
And he found on Sui, right?
So I always say that I think Sui is the greatest,
maybe the greatest or one of the greatest infrastructure on the internet, right?
And I was just wondering if Adenei can maybe give me an insight, right? And I was just wondering if Adeni can maybe give me an insight, right?
Among the niches on SWE,
I mean, gaming, payments,
and all the niches,
all the sectors on SWE,
what sector does he think
or do you think will onboard
the first 100 million users to SWE?
Like, your personal opinion,
what sector or what niche do you think
will onboard the first 100 million users on SWE?
I believe the first 100 million users is going to come from games.
I'm unashamed of that, and I think that's still the fact.
And we actually have a number of builders who already have a couple hundred million users
that I can't talk about right now.
But gaming is going to power DeFi like I think the we talk about DeFi TVL like it means anything right now right it's nothing compared to once you start to have the broader market
participate in it because you know a lot of mechanics when you think about building the game
you need the ability to swap you need the ability to get into fiat and back to banks you need
the ability to allow people to interact with one another.
They're all coordination related problems.
You have black markets being built for trading of Indian assets because there's no infrastructure
to do that in a trusted way today.
SWE is doing and removing all of that.
So I believe firmly games will bring the first hundred million real retail users.
I've always said I don't believe in the reports I'm hearing of users in crypto as a whole
because from our work at Facebook we know how to really get an insight into where users really come from.
But gaming was also a big deal for Facebook from a platform perspective.
So I think gaming will bring the next 100 million users.
Appreciate that question. I saw KISS, I think,
I had your hand up earlier.
So if you have anything that you would ask, feel free.
Thank you so much.
And thank you so much for bringing me up.
Hi, Denny.
I wanted to, because you just said it's going to be gaming.
So I'm going to pivot a little bit.
And I'm wondering, what about like Sui Stack and how I could support initiatives more in like the social services beyond finance and gaming?
more in like the social services beyond finance and gaming. One that really stands out to me at
the moment is like a gender-based violence space where women are facing abuse as a result of
systematic failures that they encounter where all of the information through hospitals or police or
social services are fragmented. So it's not, it's their identity,
their legal records, medical, housing and support records all live in such disconnected systems.
What if there were one universal place, let's say on SWE, because we're going to be doing
everything on SWE, and maybe storing it on Walrus, which is under either the social workers control
or the survivors themselves. Is this a place where SWE feels it could stretch into? Or should
this just be a Web 2 thing because of all the government regulations and everything else that's becoming more problematic?
Because I know that Christian was mentioning how there might be moves into government or regulations.
So just wondering if you could give maybe like a little bit of guidance on that.
Yeah, good question. In fact, we actually have a few governments that are already
starting to work on SWE. So, you know, governments trust SWE enough to be the platform they want to
build on and more on that soon. But I can't pretend to know enough about the problems to
solve when it comes to the social issues you just described. But what I can do is to generalize it
to the best of my abilities, namely, like, is there a way to have an aggregated marketplace
for data to be shared and only certain aspects of that to be released
or at least aggregated amongst a number of peers
so that you don't release PII,
but also at the same time that you still want to protect
the anonymity of those who are sharing that data
in a way that they can feel safe?
Absolutely, yes.
I've always said you can rebuild WikiLeaks on SWE tomorrow,
and it will be way better than what Julian Assange tried to build.
I actually hope someone rebuilds a WikiLeaks on SWE.
I'll pay for it.
No joke.
The next thing is,
if you ever need to build a service
where you ultimately want to allow
those who submit that data to monetize it upon use,
kind of like what social media is today,
but more in a sense of users decide to divulge data
at their own will, then Walrus lets you solve that problem with SEAL. So you have Walrus, SEAL and Nautilus, which is a trusted execution environment,
environment allows you to effectively run AI models on chain directly on abstract pieces of
allows you to effectively run AI models on chain directly on
data and return the results without exposing information that you could deem to be quite
private and personal. So that use case you described, I believe it can be built. I can't
go into the intricacies of all the problems to be solved there, but I think I can generalize it
enough from a technical perspective to believe it's something that you can certainly do.
Okay, that's great. Basically what I meant is meant is because you know if you go to a police record or if you go to a hospital visit or if social services come to your house they're all
siloed in different uh systems exactly yeah exactly and if you do it in one central totally
agree that's a problem with the internet right and that's what we're trying to solve right the
reason everyone has their own record and i remember remember when I was explaining my banking history, right? Like I saw, we had 50 different systems in the bank for just knowing where balances were. But having a universal record that you can aggregate from is way more efficient. It's actually cheaper long form, right? Like you're not keeping records everywhere. It becomes a public shared infrastructure. So absolutely, this is
this global coordination layer where both data and value can play together in a way that's
composable. That's the problem we're trying to solve. That's exactly the multi-trillion dollar
opportunity. I appreciate you. I'm going to go ahead and give somebody. No, no, no, no. You're
perfectly fine. I just have a few other people that i
want to be able to get to with a limited amount of time that we have left uh so appreciate you
coming up and asking that but wanted to give uh i know we've got sweland that wanted to
um ask a i guess not sweland uh the man behind sweland on i don't know which one of y'all is
on the mic right now but go ahead and take the table.
Hey, how's it going?
Thanks for the spaces.
And it's been a great week in Bali.
This is a good role that had a growth.
I wanted to ask a question to Denny.
I really enjoyed your presentation yesterday and I think somebody asked about
how economic activity on SWE is growing and maturing.
And I wanted to know obviously from your
point of view like what do you think or what would
you like to see that's being
built on SWE next and SWE DeFi specifically
like where else can we take you know
the great tech that's available
obviously we're interested in
building out whatever you might
have an idea about but yeah we'd love to get your
thoughts here
My biggest thing
that i can't wait to see is a d5 powered credit card and i don't mean it in the way that you're
seeing everyone else build it because the way everyone's building some centralized thing that
really you can replace with a database like i don't think that's sexy i don't think it's
interesting enough but i believe a system a DeFi card that is powered directly
with lending protocols on SWE is where I'd want to go.
I'd want to be able to spend directly from the yield I'm generating on,
for example, let's just say SWE Lend, right?
I want to be able to swipe a card,
spend directly from my SWE Lend balance without having to liquidate.
I'd love to be able to effectively use my credit card to earn points
on reward systems and boost my points ultimately and have that be a recurring thing. I'd love it
also to be able to, if I'm using my card to do certain types of activities, for it to know what
kind of activities I'm doing, give me the reward associated with that as well. I think the world
where you have to go through some central intermediary to power payments
is always going backwards.
But we need to get to a point where, you know,
we always say we have this global state machine.
We always have these blockchains, right?
Like, and if we can have these blockchains be the rail,
because I always draw this comparison.
Visa today is a payment network.
Visa really just passes messages across.
Similar to wire networks.
All they really do is they have a standard messaging protocol
that you send things across.
We have finality systems.
They don't only send messages, but they also give finality.
So you can really program into these cards rules
that are only governed by public systems like blockchains so i would love a credit card that
takes advantage of literally using the blockchain stack to run itself where all forms of liquidity
is visible there all the point systems is literally visible there it's not some obscure
rule that changes upon you overnight.
And then, look, I think
the ability to start having DeFi protocols
partner directly or
having
the Airbnbs, the airlines
of the world start to enter programs that are
powered by DeFi is real the world. Because I
don't want a world where we go backwards, where
the Coinbase of the world own the exchanges
or the banks of the world own the banks, right?
Like, we need to build new banks.
We need to build new payment systems.
And I'd love to see DeFi protocols push that angle rather than going through the centralized route.
Appreciate that.
So we've got, let's see, just a few minutes left. Wanted to give one more opportunity for either Shiv or Jaylene to ask a question before we close this out. Or. And honestly, I've never been more bullish.
Listening to the founders yesterday, all the teams that are building,
you guys are doing such an amazing job.
Love to see the community building.
And yeah, I'm just here for it.
Amazing. Appreciate it, Jaylene.
Shiv, you have anything else?
Yeah, I mean, given the unpredictable nature of the space,
it's hard to predict you
know what the future might like but obviously you can position accordingly for it and obviously
make sure that an ecosystem ecosystem could thrive no matter what condition it is
i guess i i want to ask like what is something you're looking forward to the most that's personally
cool to you obviously there's different aspects of an ecosystem that people enjoy
to themselves but what's something that you're looking forward to um perhaps later this year
uh to see like it coming to fruition there are a few things stuff i can't talk about but the thing
i'm excited on right now um i'll give a kind of lead on that in a moment but at least what i'm
excited about right now is one of the things i found kind of puzzling is the ad space. The ad space is full of fraud, full of intermediaries,
and creators ultimately have to wait 30 to 90 days to get paid, right? It's effectively a scam.
You know what I mean? I run ads, you tell me you're going to pay me, you make me wait up to 90 days,
and the reason for that is because there are a number of interconnected systems that don't have a full view of the world, and there's a lot of slippage.
So what has been launched on SWE is Alchemy.
Alchemy, I really believe in the business model.
Ultimately, you're talking about being able to fund ad tech, but also generating yield from real ads for the first time in history.
I think now, talking about yield farming is one thing, but now you can actually yield farm the internet.
So, you know, Alchemy is built on SWE using Warris and Seal,
and it's solving the predominant problem on internet
whereby you can effectively reduce the time of payment
from when an ad is shown to when it's displayed directly on a website
and the creators get paid instantly.
That is a world that I think is super powerful, but also we know how big the ad space is.
It's a multi-hundred billion dollar industry, and that's only going to grow because ads
are effectively research-proof, right?
You have to advertise when the market is good, you have to advertise when the market
is bad.
And these are the kind of use cases I think makes me excited about SWE, because SWE, you
can effectively build the existing Web2 businesses now on SWE,
but removing the friction and removing the cost
that are associated with running your own infrastructure.
That, for me, is exactly that.
Now you're running ad systems on SWE.
You eventually run banking systems on SWE.
We have a number of financial institutions
who are going to run their own DeFi protocols on SWE directly as well.
So you're talking about banks going on-chain,
you're talking about ad networks going on-chain,
and games are going to bring users on-chain directly,
even if it's hidden through ZKlog and other mechanisms.
But you start to have a world where apps now start to become interconnected
with each other for the first time.
That, for me, is super exciting.
That vision of the global coordination layer is becoming true.
Got a follow-up question. I know there's a lot to look forward to um but i think uh another question is what is something you like to see more of you know perhaps like it's in the preface of really
you know going parabolic uh what's something that you'll see more of personally? So one thing I think we're going to see more of this year is, so we believe, we've always believed,
right, that the massive majority of transactions on the internet will be automated. Largely,
they'll be run by bots, not bots in a negative sense, right? But when we mean bots, we're talking
about agents, which is a better word, right, that acts on behalf of users. So in that world where agents are going to act
in majority on transactions that happen on the internet,
we believe that that world needs a layer
to effectively allow these transactions to happen
in a safe and effective manner.
If you imagine what SWE and Walrus is, it's exactly that, right?
So you have a world where APIs are effectively smart contracts on chain.
If people know from a technical point of view, APIs today are really the silos.
They try and open themselves up, but there's no way to coordinate one call from one API to another and do that in a way that's atomic.
What we believe now with what we're working on with SWE is all forms of public APIs will find their space on SWE.
And there'll be effectively communication mechanisms that you could use to chain this up.
It's called PTBs.
It already exists on SWE today.
Then what will happen is you effectively now have a public marketplaces of APIs.
And an AI agent, you're going to ask it to do something.
Because AI is interesting because it's great for you to tell you information, but it's
very, very hard for you to get it to do something, especially act on your behalf.
Hey, book me a flight to Venice.
I want a first-class ticket.
But also, book me the first excursion possible.
Get me an agent to walk me through the city and town square.
Get me a great hotel at the same time.
Agents need to be able to act to add real value
because we're already seeing the barrier of entry
of getting information for you,
even with DeepSeek, is getting lower and lower.
Where the value is ultimately going to be
is when agents can act on behalf of users directly.
And SWE and Walrus is well-positioned for that
because smart contracts effectively become these public APIs
that are written in natural language, position for that because smart contracts effectively become these public APIs that
are written in natural language, and agents can shop the entire marketplace of APIs and
act on users' behavior and do that in a way whereby it's fully trustworthy, it's fully
audited, and there's little worry for user information to be slipped or given away.
So that's a world we're programming for, and that's a world that we believe SWE is very
well suited to win. We saw this
when we were working at Facebook. It was going to be the case,
and we knew nobody was building towards it,
and we're still shocked that nobody's figured it out by now.
But that's where SWE is going, and
you're going to need, you know, seal as a mechanism
for unsealing information on users'
behavior. You're going to need SWE as a
layer to serve all APIs and calls.
You're going to need Warris as a layer to serve
this storage with amazing characteristics behind it. So that is a stack the internet calls. You're going to need Warris as a layer to serve the storage with amazing characteristics
behind it. So that is a stack the internet
needs. Users are going to be,
everyone would have a number of agents, and these agents
will do your daily shopping for you,
all the way to your booking your flights
and everything you want to do.
We'll get your school fees paid and everything else.
Agents will act on your
needs, on the daily needs,
rather than human beings.
Adam, I appreciate you answering that.
And for everyone up here, I really appreciate everyone coming up here.
I do want to be respectful of your time, though.
I know that I talked about cutting this off here at, I guess, 10-hour time.
So really, really, really, really enjoyed this
conversation, man. Have a lot. Maybe we'll have to run it back sometime down the road because
I just feel like there's still so much more to unpack, but excited to see the growth. And
yeah, really, really appreciate you coming up and sharing that knowledge with us.
It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.
All right.
And we will see you guys later.
Thanks again, guys. Thank you.
