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TFM x Nolus: Interchain Defi
Recorded: May 30, 2024 Duration: 0:50:19Space Recording
Full Transcription
Thank you for joining us.
Thanks for dropping in, CJ.
Thanks for dropping in, Oriwa.
And we've got Meto on the Nolis account.
I think it is him.
I've invited him up to speak.
Hopefully he can accept that invite.
And we can get this thing started.
Okay, he's coming in on his own account.
We'll get him up.
So, yeah, in today's space, we're going to talk a little bit about TFM.
We're going to talk about Nolis protocol.
We're going to talk about interchain liquidity throughout IBC.
And if anyone's got any questions, comments, or criticisms, feel free to voice them.
We can get you up to the stage.
We're not necessarily going to run for a whole hour.
Just, like, see where the conversation goes.
And, yeah, hopefully get some interesting tidbits about both TFM and Nolis.
So, Meto, are you there?
Can you hear me?
Hey, Rebel.
I'm here.
Happy to...
Thanks for the invite and for the space.
Happy to be here and talk about, yeah, interchain DeFi.
All right, awesome.
Coming through loud and clear.
So, yeah, I mean, to respect everyone's time, we might as well just jump into it.
The space is being recorded.
I think Terra Spaces will probably do an edit and put that up on various podcast platforms and stuff.
So, yeah, let's go for it.
I mean, we have known each other for, like, personally for, like, almost a year.
We met face to face.
I mean, literally, I didn't know you online at all.
I mean, we just met when we were at Osmocon.
And it was great to meet as a team.
I'm not sure even if we met before that in Prague.
Well, I'm that memorable you don't even remember.
No, I wasn't in Prague.
I should have totally gone to that Prague one.
I don't know why I didn't.
I just didn't go.
But everyone who went said it was brilliant.
So I'm looking forward to more in-person meetups.
Same here.
And, I mean, I think you've probably, I mean, let's just start with a bit of Alpha.
I mean, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?
I mean, you've got quite a big event personally, I mean, for NOLAS, but also personally for yourself, coming up in about six weeks or something.
And so I'm going to be attending that.
But, I mean, do you want to tell people a little bit about METO and a little bit about what you're going to be doing in Brussels?
Of course, of course.
So, hi, everyone.
I'm METO.
I'm doing product development at NOLAS.
So, I joined this team roughly two years ago.
I believe, actually, even more than that.
It's my, like, first full-time job after I graduated from university.
So, yeah, I've been here for quite a while and I'm enjoying every moment, being part of a true DeFi Interchain product and, yeah, working closely with the rest of the team to make the overall experience better and better for their users.
And, yeah, I'll be in Brussels in July at the Nebular Summit Conference and I'll be speaking about NOLAS, about what we are building, sharing more technical details about what we've achieved already and what we have yet to achieve.
So, I believe it's going to be interesting and hopefully educational as well for the people attending there.
And really looking forward to meeting you there as well in person.
Absolutely.
Maybe go out for dinner again.
Not like a hot date or anything.
And there was loads of people went out.
In fact, NOLAS, it was a NOLAS dinner.
It was really cool.
So, yeah, hopefully there'll be more members of your team and such.
I mean, at the last Nebular, there was like lots of little workshops and it was quite hard to sort of see everything I wanted to see because there was often like two different workshops on at the same time as well as something on the main stage.
And last year, you guys did one of the workshops, but this time you've got like a main stage speaking slot.
Is that right?
I believe so, yeah.
So, it's going to be interesting.
It's going to be like a new experience for me as well because I haven't talked in front of such a large crowd, but I'm pretty motivated about it.
So, let's see what happens.
Absolutely.
I actually used to do a public speaking course and this thing called Toastmasters, which I would like highly recommend to anyone that's interested in improving public speaking skills.
And I mean, there's some really, really great people that you can learn from at Toastmasters.
So, yeah, just I presume you are going to be like preparing and practicing beforehand and that really, I'm sure, will help you make an excellent presentation.
So, yeah, looking forward to seeing that.
Yeah, I mean, so NOLIS and TFM are kind of complementary in the interchain.
There's a lot of crossover with regards to like the chains that we integrate with.
And obviously, you're integrated with as well.
So, I mean, do you want to tell us a little bit about, I mean, I know this is obviously its own chain as well, but do you want to sort of tell us about the chains that specifically NOLIS is interfacing with?
Of course.
So, yeah, let's give, start off a bit from like the background of what NOLIS is.
So, NOLIS is an application-specific blockchain, meaning that a single app lives on the chain and that app is a type of a lending market solution.
It's a different type of lending market compared to, let's say, Compound or Aave in a sense that, yes, you have like lenders and borrowers on NOLIS, but here lenders supply only stable coins for the time being and earn on interest paid in those stable coins by the borrowers.
And, you know, additionally, NOLIS rewards and the borrowers, here is the interesting part because the borrowers, they provide a deposit called down payment and they can get up to 150% of that deposit's value in the form of a loan from the system.
And here, the system itself seamlessly utilising IBC and interchain accounts transfers both that deposit by the borrower and the loan provided by the system to an integrated network and swaps it on an integrated exchange.
Effectively creating sort of cross-chain margin-long position for that asset.
And for the time being, the integrated networks are two, meaning they're osmosis with osmosis decks and neutral with astroport.
So, yeah, looking forward to like integrating also other networks across cosmos and beyond.
What's really, really important is to stress out that NOLIS needs a functional decks to operate.
And that decks needs to have sufficient liquidity in order for it to be integrated and to make sense for it to be integrated and to be sufficiently safe for both the protocol and the end users.
So, I guess that's kind of some of the background, the description for NOLIS.
Cool. And yeah, and you mentioned that the two chains specifically that NOLIS is integrated with then are osmosis and neutron.
I mean, as far as like TFM is concerned, when I first started using NOLIS or trying to use NOLIS,
I was using TFM to like the IBC transfer feature to send some tokens from different chains to NOLIS and I was having a bit of a problem because I couldn't find my tokens.
I think what I did was I sent some Axelar USDC from somewhere to Axelar and then on to NOLIS chain.
And then when I tried to like deposit my Axelar USDC that was on NOLIS, I couldn't find it.
So, I mean, does that make sense to you why I couldn't find it?
And then do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Yeah. So that's like a specific thing to about Cosmos and routing of assets,
because Cosmos is usually like an ecosystem with various networks,
NOLIS, osmosis, neutron, et cetera, Cosmos curve, et cetera.
So it's pretty important how exactly you transfer those assets between chains so that the route that you're taking ends up with the fungible asset at the end.
Fungible meaning that there is liquidity for that asset and there is use for it.
The cool thing, actually, this breaking of fungibility is a feature of Cosmos and it means that each chain,
when there's like a connection between two chains, there's a pair of channels through which you're transferring assets.
So let's say if you're transferring from the Cosmos curve to NOLIS directly,
you end up with one version of Atom on NOLIS,
and when you're transferring from Cosmos to Osmosis and then on NOLIS,
you end up with another version of Atom, which in fact is the fungible one,
because the liquidity of those assets are on the most used decentralized exchanges,
namely Osmosis and also Astroport.
So for NOLIS is utilizing assets on those chains.
And as such, it's like a final stop where the previous stop before that is mandatory to be like this integrated decentralized exchange.
And we are aiming to kind of ease the transfer process for the users by then utilizing the NOLIS DAP,
because there we also, let's say, utilize this packet forward middleware, so to speak, which allows you to transfer assets from, let's say, their native networks, like you have Atom on the Cosmos hub, and you want to transfer it to
NOLIS DAP, and you want to transfer it to NOLIS to, let's say, provide this down payment for a lease position.
You can use through that packet forward middleware, you're essentially guaranteeing that Atom will be the Atom that has liquidity on, let's say, Osmosis or Neutron.
So, yeah, this fungibility is pretty important.
And also, you guys are building your tools as a way of hiding that complexity for the end users such that they end up actually with an asset that can be used on that chain.
But, as I mentioned, even if you end up with an asset that you cannot use, you just need to, like, go back on this wrong route, so to speak, and then go to choose the viable one, the one that is the correct one.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it can be quite confusing with regards to all this IBC routing.
But, I mean, TFM, the whole idea there is to stop people sending tokens down the wrong route.
So, like, normally, and this is the case with TFM, if I have some Atom on Osmosis, and I want to send my Atom to, say, Neutron, TFM stops me from being able to send the Atom directly from Osmosis to Neutron.
Because, just as you're saying, that Atom wouldn't be usable on Neutron.
And typically, the Atom would have to be sent from Osmosis back to the Cosmos Hub, and then on to Neutron.
And that's the routing that TFM takes care of for people.
But, from what you're saying, that's not what NOLIS wants.
NOLIS wants, so if I've got Atom on Osmosis, and I want to use this Atom to open a DeFi lease on NOLIS, that Atom has to go from Osmosis direct to NOLIS.
So, it's interesting that, at the moment, you can't use TFM to do that.
Because TFM is, like, trying to protect users by saying, no, no, no, you can't send, if you send Atom straight from Osmosis to a different chain, it's not going to work, or it's not going to be usable.
So, it has to go back to the Cosmos Hub, and then on to NOLIS.
But NOLIS is saying, yeah, we don't want that.
We want that Osmosis Atom.
So, the way, really, to transfer that Atom from Osmosis to NOLIS is, you guys have got a nice little interface as well,
for specifically the tokens that you need, or that users need, on NOLIS itself.
Exactly, yeah.
And, yeah, what I said before, it's, I believe it's, yeah, the job of the interface of the, let's say, of the routers in the background to kind of take care of, take away all of that complexity for the users.
The user doesn't have to, like, at the end of the day, the user doesn't, like, have to think about where their tokens are.
It's only that they are able to, like, use them when they, with the app that they are, like, using.
So, that's the goal here.
So, this complexity is just, like, should be, like, abstracted away as much as possible from the user so that the user doesn't, like, use their, let's say, wallet,
wallet, the capital wallet to transfer those tokens themselves.
Like, for instance, I could, I could do it, but, and other users, you could do it, for example.
But, yeah, there are also many, many, many users who do not want to deal with this hassle of, yeah, let's transfer, use this channel, use, then use the other channel as well.
So, it's a drop of the UI of that corresponding dApp, I would say, to, yeah, take away all of that complexity and to make it this, make the life of the user as easy as possible.
Yeah, I mean, I sort of agree with that, but then at the same time, I still have, like, a little, I don't know if it's a doubt, but, like, I do like things being easy for me or if I'm, like, making a video or something trying to, like, explain something to show that, like, dApps in the interchain are easy to use.
I think that's super important. So, that level of, like, abstracting away complexity is vital.
At the same time, I think it's important that users kind of have an idea of what's actually happening.
Yeah, you have, like, a learning curve, right, in using the app. So, it's pretty important to, yeah, not, maybe not abstract everything away, but kind of also give them a chance to learn and be better with dealing this tech.
Because, yeah, you don't become, like, a master in doing something in a day or so. But, yeah, it's still pretty important that users that do not want to, let's say, learn all that stuff, technical stuff, they still have, like, the easy way of dealing with things.
But, yeah, I'm a big fan of, like, education and also constantly trying to improve yourself. And I believe that as you use, like, more of these technologies, you kind of, you're pretty adapted and you can react to even new complex things that are being released.
So, yeah, education is a pretty, pretty vital part in all this.
Yeah, so, I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe, like, abstract away the hassle. Because, like, yeah, no, I certainly don't want hassle. But, like, don't abstract away all the, and this is not specific to Knowles, this is just, like, interchained apps.
Like, don't abstract away all the sort of knowledge and understanding. So that I think it does help, helps me, helps users get better at DeFi if we kind of know what's going on.
And then if something does kind of go not the way we expect, we then have a much more of an understanding of what's happened.
Oh, have the tokens disappeared? No, I mean, nothing disappears. It's just a case of trying to work out what's what's happened to it.
Exactly. Transparency, like, you want to be, even if something unexpected happens, you want, like, a more complete picture so that you don't easily jump to, like, the wrong conclusions, so to speak.
Yeah, I agree with that.
Yeah, and I suppose with, like, I guess, yeah, decentralized finance, like, users are in charge of their own keys, users are in charge of their own, I mean, users, in a sense, are their own bank.
So we do have to have, like, there's no one really there to save us.
So, yeah, we have to be able to kind of save ourselves.
But anyway, moving on, you guys are working on some new features, I believe.
TFM have also got some new features coming out shortly.
So, I mean, will we just have a little discussion about what's coming up over the next few months?
Lovely.
So, we recently released, published a rather detailed roadmap in the form of a Medium blog post outlining the development achievements as well as the goals for this year.
And it's safe to say that it's a rather packed roadmap.
So, yeah, we already know that we are integrated with Osmosis and Neutron networks, and that people are able to open this cross-chain margin long positions.
But here's, like, this detail, when cross-chain margin short positions, and I would say that they're coming up pretty soon.
So, with this is, like, the next major functionality that we are about to release, and it will allow lenders, first of all, to deposit assets other than stablecoins.
Meaning that they will be able to, let's say, deposit Bitcoin or Atom or ETH or Osmo and earn, as lenders currently are earning from stablecoins,
like they would earn the corresponding asset in the form of interest paid by borrowers and also NLS rewards on top.
And borrowers, on the other hand, they would be able to provide a deposit, again, borrow up to 150% of that deposit's value.
But this time, it will be in the form of, this loan would be in the form of a volatile asset, and both that deposit and the loan will be sold for USDC.
So, effectively, you will be entering, like, lease positions in USDC.
So, if the value of that asset, the price of that asset drops, then you would be able to, like, close that position, purchasing the asset that you're basically owing as debt.
And you would end up with more USDC than you started off initially, which basically offers users, I would say it like that, bi-directional market exposure, so to speak.
So, they will be able to react in both ways, not just longing an asset, but also shorting it, should they need to.
So, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that feature coming up.
And, of course, to kind of continue, we, as everyone has already mentioned, NOLUS is utilizing IBC and Interchain accounts for transferring and, respectively, also swapping assets on exchanges from NOLUS.
And the idea here is that we want to continue working on making this whole process as efficient as possible, meaning shortening the amount of time that it takes to, like, open a position.
Even currently, it's much faster compared to when we initially started, but we want to, the end goal is to make it near instant, so to speak, and to also be able to scale that to thousands of positions being opened simultaneously.
And, yeah, the idea is that you could, at the end of the day, in my opinion, those cross-chain operations should feel like as if you're, like, using IBC to transfer assets fast and efficient.
So that's, I would say those are the two biggest goals.
And, of course, we also plan to, like, revamp the UI, introduce some detailed P&L analytics for users because, yeah, people are demanding that.
They're more, they're going to see more historical data about what happens with their current leases, what has happened with their past leases, and, of course, also lease strategies.
This is something that we've, that's also on the pipeline.
We want to start off with the option of people.
Basically, currently, borrowers need to owe, let's say, interest once every 14 days.
But the idea is to have this sort of an assistant that is able to kind of, through allowances, deduct payments from the users.
So the users basically use this tool to kind of, as an automatic interest payment mechanism.
And also, as they could use this tool as well, as an option to, let's say, decrease their loan-to-value ratio should, let's say, the position that they're holding kind of becomes negative for them.
And it nears the point of the first partial liquidation threshold.
So that is something that has also been demanded by people, by users.
So, yeah, it's, we are constantly, at the end of the day, we're, yeah, trying to ease the whole thing as much as possible for people.
So, so that we have a fast and efficient product, able to meet the demands of the broader crypto and upcoming audience.
Yeah, and it was interesting what you were saying there about all the reporting.
I mean, I think that's definitely something, regardless of what platform people are using, that is really nice.
And you mentioned P&L, that would be, that would be super cool.
And, and just, just more reporting.
And, I mean, that's kind of what TFM's next update is going to be about, actually.
And it's, I mean, you guys are sort of closely working with Osmosis as well.
And the, the next update for the TFM terminals is actually going to drop on the Osmosis Pro version, which is at pro.osmosis.zone.
And, and just like Metal, you were saying there, like P&L is going to be a big part of this sort of update.
There's going to be, like, if users are interested in looking at their trade history, or looking at trade history of specific users,
and there's all sorts of different filters that, that things can be sorted by.
And, and to be honest, my favourite thing that's coming is, like, you can put in any Osmosis address you're interested in,
and search that user's trades, see what they've been doing.
So it might be that you're sort of researching someone else to see how, why they're making so much money,
or how they're making their profits, so you might want to copy them.
But I quite like it just to, like, drop in my own wallet addresses, and I can just see all my trades.
And it's, it's, that, that's the kind of reporting I want, rather than going to Chainscope or to Mint Scan,
which, I mean, it does have more, more data, but for me, it's harder to read.
And it's, like, I need to click each individual transaction to see what it actually was.
Whereas what TFM is going to offer is, like, just a table to see all your transactions on Osmosis for a specific time period.
And it could be all time.
So that's, I think, pretty cool.
One thing that we don't have yet, actually, is a button to just print that off.
But I think that could be really cool sort of reporting if people have their own sort of accounting needs to do,
or just searching for a transaction that you can't quite find on Mint Scan or something like that.
So, yeah, this will be dropping relatively soon.
I mean, the UI is done.
There's just a few sort of things in the background that are still being updated.
So, yeah, that's the update from our side.
There was, do you want to jump back in with anything, or will I ask you another question?
I just wanted to say that, yeah, wallet tracking is definitely a useful feature to have.
Like, I totally agree with the pain points that you shared.
Yeah, if you want to, like, track a wallet and you go to, like, to the Explorer,
it kind of becomes a hassle to, like, monitor everything yourself and aggregate that data yourself.
So it's pretty cool that you guys are doing that.
And it's, yeah, it kind of saves, at the very least, it saves a lot of time.
So that time is precious.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, like, yeah, if you're tracking other wallets that are doing interesting things,
or, yeah, if you just want to spy on someone else, it's super easy to drill down into their transactions.
And there was something that was kind of in the news or on crypto Twitter about Nolas, like, maybe a month ago.
Is there anything, and it was some users were unable to, like, manage their accounts or manage their leases for, like, a short period of time.
I say short, but it was maybe like a couple of days.
Yep.
Are you able to solve, I mean, I'm assuming, well, I know that things like measures were put in place to resolve that situation to prevent it happening again.
But yeah, can you maybe reassure us that things are fixed?
Yes, just to, like, give maybe a background of what happened.
So there are a few, yeah, a month ago, there was, like, a significant market movement effectively affecting a lot of leases at the moment.
So at the same time, so it was, like, thousands of them.
So what effectively happened is that each lease position on Nolas by default has, like, a separate Interchain account.
And the way Interchain accounts currently work is that they each register a different channel.
So if an Interchain account is doing something, it does it on its own channel, and that's, like, a pretty cool safety feature also.
Because, yeah, you never want to, like, keep your eggs in one basket, so to speak.
But it was also, like, at that time, it was a drawback, especially for the Relayer services.
Because, yeah, here maybe I should also give, like, a description of what Relayers are.
So, and how maybe IBC works in general is that, yeah, IBC is, like, a protocol that each, let's say, a given Cosmos chain can implement in its base layer,
allowing it to, like, transfer assets and also data between chains in a trust-minimized way, meaning you don't have, like, a multi-seq bridge to do that.
And here, with Interchain accounts, each Interchain account registers a separate pair of channels for a given connection between two chains.
And channels, by default, are ordered.
So what ordered means is that if, let's say, you have, like, a sequences of actions that you want to do on that, like, channel,
let's say, register an account, then swap those assets, etc.
So when those actions kind of pile up, for the Relayers, they need to kind of process all of them.
And if they do not do it in a defined timeframe, which was, like, one minute for lease positions, then those channels simply close.
So if a channel closes, it needs to be reopened in a new pair, meaning that so that the actions can proceed further.
And this opening and closing is actions that Relayers need to also kind of process.
So you have this piling up of many, many actions, which kind of breaks liveness, so to speak.
And actually, with those transfer channels, the regular transfer channels, so if you're transferring, let's say, between Cosmos Hub, Osmosis,
only assets, those channels are unordered, so they do not close on timeouts.
So if your transfer, let's say, fails, you simply see your assets again on your Cosmos Hub wallet or in Osmosis,
and you give it another go, and you do not have to reopen that channel.
So this whole thing kind of save a few actions, so it's a less burden for Relayers processes.
And Relayers processes are simply like off-chain processes that are able to relay packets between two interconnected chains.
And, yeah, so what happened as a form of remedies that we applied is we first created this software that is open source for Hermes.
We forked it and adjusted it so that actual swaps could, let's say swaps that were aligned to be processed,
happened before this kind of timeframe of one minute ended for that channel so that they would be processed in time before the channel got closed and needed to be reopened again.
And another remedy that we also applied was increasing that timeout period from one minute to three hours,
so giving that significant buffer for the channel to kind of process its actions.
And as next steps, pretty soon IBC will release a new version, basically making those interchain accounts and channels an order so they wouldn't close on timeouts.
So that would save a lot of burden again on Relayers.
And we've also kind of discussed this grant idea with the IBC team to kind of make those interchain accounts work with one channel rather than each of them having like separate channels.
channels because this would allow you to still register different interchain accounts on that network, but the actions will go through like a single channel.
So effectively this would even like this would make the whole thing a lot more scalable in terms of Relayers not needing to like process many, many channels.
And yeah, as I will return to my words earlier that this would kind of in my eyes make make the whole process very, very similar to like transfer simply transferring assets between chains.
So that's that's that's like a big scalability boost.
Yeah, so it's essentially to do with IBC, it sounds like, and that's something that people who've been heavy users of TFM might have noticed that like cross chain swaps cross chain transfers between like major chains like Cosmos Hub,
Osmosis, Neutron, like there's typically never a problem with that because like the quality of the Relayers doing the relaying is high.
And the transactions like go through.
But and also there's like a decent number of teams like running Relayers.
But then sometimes if you if someone wants to transfer tokens between maybe a smaller chain and Osmosis, like sometimes the transfers don't go through, or if it's a cross chain swap, there's maybe some kind of timeout.
And that is a drawback, I suppose, of IBC that a lot of chains are relying on essentially like public infrastructure.
And it obviously costs teams to run these Relayers.
So I think that's something that, I mean, you mentioned a grant there as well.
So it is nice that some teams are getting grants from from different chains.
I know Neutron, as I believe it's Crypto Crew, who do their Relayers, and they also do Relayers for Persistence.
So I'm assuming they probably do some other chains as well, but they provide quite a nice service level agreement, which means like the Relayers should essentially be up almost 100% of the time.
And I think that's like we need more high quality relaying just to make IBC like a more robust ecosystem for for for chains like Nolas, as well as for the users, I suppose.
Yeah, and also like Relayers incentivization in general is something that is still like a topic of discussion across the cosmos.
So how exactly you would incentivize, let's say, even like normal people that are from the outside who want to like make this up like a profitable thing.
So yeah, it's pretty important to this incentivization mechanism.
It would be a big boost for the ecosystem if there is if there is one.
Like there were some have been some efforts in that direction, but nothing major that it's used.
Yes, I believe.
And hopefully there will be something like that.
So rather than just seeing things.
So handing out grants for specific Relayers teams to kind of take care of the relaying between their network and any other any other kind of network.
I guess like, yes, some teams can can afford it quite easily and other teams, maybe not so much.
So, yeah, maybe just a gap between the rich and the poor.
And yeah, I mean, if there's anyone in the audience with a question for TFM with a question for Nolas,
maybe you have used one of these platforms, both of the platforms, feel free to request to speak.
We can get you up to the stage with your question or comment.
While we're waiting for that, Meto was telling us that he's going to be presenting at Nebular Summit in Brussels on maybe the 13th or 14th,
or is it maybe the 12th and 13th of July?
12th and 13th.
12th and 13th.
12th and 13th.
Have you got like a title of your presentation yet?
Or has that not been decided?
12th and 13th.
It's like a work in progress, so to speak.
I want to make it look something that's interesting, but not too abstract, I would say.
So, yeah, it's definitely going to be about interoperability from here on, I can say.
But yeah, the final title is like a work in progress.
And I mean, interoperability is a big theme of Nebular.
So that's going to be pretty cool to hear.
Not had any requests so far.
So is there anything else that you haven't mentioned about Nolis that you would like to leave us with before we close this space down?
Yeah, I believe I covered most of the interesting parts in our roadmap.
We are, yeah, really looking forward to pushing out this crosschain margin short feature.
Yeah, I'm pretty positive that before Nebular it would happen.
But yeah, let's see.
Cool.
I mean, I would urge anyone in this space, if you are not yet following Nolis, just click on their icon there.
Give them a follow.
Give them a follow if you're not yet following TFM.
The exact same thing.
Just click on our icon.
Give us a follow.
What I find interesting is that like, I mean, Nolis is a money market.
And it's quite easy to have like a favourite money market.
But like on both Osmosis and Neutron, like Nolis and Mars, both money markets, but they seem so different, which I think is really refreshing.
It's not like, I mean, I use both, Mars and Nolis.
I feel that like Nolis does stuff that Mars isn't doing, and vice versa.
So I think it's really nice that it's not like just two products sort of just doing the same thing and just fighting for the same users.
You can quite happily have 100 people using Mars and those same 100 people.
Obviously, it'd be nice if it was 10,000 people, but like users will use both Mars and Nolis, which I think is really, really good for the ecosystem.
Yeah, exactly.
Growing the pie is what matters.
Building like complementary DeFi solutions to enrich the overall DeFi ecosystem across Cosmosis is pretty important.
That's, yeah, we believe that we're building something different.
Mars is like a different product, so they're pretty good as well.
So, yeah, at the end of the day, yeah, it's important that more and more users use, yeah, become a part of this ecosystem.
And I'm sure both teams are building like the products to meet their demands.
Yeah, and I don't know if this is certainly not my alpha to drop, but I was under the impression is there going to be like some kind of like collaboration between Mars and Nolis?
So, yeah, the way I personally think about it is through this whitelisted yield optimization strategies that would be coming up and are on our roadmap.
So like a potential use case would be assets in those lease positions since there's like a real underlying asset.
That asset could be used in, let's say, a Mars lending market to earn additional yield, of course, with some risk parameters applied for that.
But yeah, that's like one use case that can be done.
Also, you could do some Delta neutral stuff using both protocols in a way.
So that's, yeah, I guess that's like those are primary use cases for that.
Cool. And like could lease positions become like a collateral on Mars?
Would that be feasible?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we've not, I believe that at the very least there should be like, there should be this boundary applied for the risks side because at the very least, the idea is for those assets to earn additionally.
And I believe you need to like draw the line at some point because otherwise you're applying too much risk in a component and it could not end up well for the users and for the protocol.
So, yeah, that's like rehive authentication, I believe was the correct term. It's not a good idea when you got something like that.
Yeah, so just leverage upon leverage. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's sure.
I'm sure banks have that kind of thing.
Exactly.
Exactly.
You don't want that, you know, say, you know, the same systems of sensible.
Absolutely.
Well, thank you very much for joining the call.
And this evening, it's this evening for me to work metal.
Yeah, so I mean, users who are interested in NOLIS can check that out.
It's got integrations with Osmosis and Neutron.
If you need to get assets on to either of those chains to be able to work with NOLIS, you can use TFM, IBC swap or IBC transfer to send tokens around the inter chain and start playing with some Cosmos DeFi.
Thank you NOLIS for joining us.
Thank you to the audience for being here.
Yeah, we'll see you in the next one.
Thanks very much, Meto.
See you.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
